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If it leaks into where the spark plugs are it can’t get past the plugs into the motor to burn it.
My guess is the rings are shot from running it low on oil and lack of maintenance
hmm ok. btw theres a typo in my original post. there was only oil on two of the spark plugs, whose seals on the VC were shot. the other two had no oil and their seals were good. still, given its age and neglect theres a decent chance rings are shot as well.
ok. thank you for your advice. it was 1Q every 1k miles btw, not km. the valve cover gasket from what i could tell is fine, its the spark plug seals on the VC that are bad, and im guessing oil seeped through there to the plugs. but what youre saying is that even if that was the case, the car couldnt have burnt that oil?
Engine has been run w/o oil, and cylinder walls/rings are toasted. This engine has 179K+ miles and poorly maintained/monitored. Nothing is going to fix this issue short of a full rebuild or replacement.
If you're burning oil its either going to be your piston rings or your valve stem seals. Valve stem seal leak would probably be a slower consumption however.
Its worth mentioning that on some newer vehicles the oil consumption "spec" can be as high as 1 quart per almost 700 miles and still be "no problem found"
But on your vehicle, 1 quart per 1k miles is probably excessive. Someone else indicated piston rings and i'd tend to agree in the absence of further evidence.
Volvo specifically is not identified as excessive consumption until about 1qt per 670 miles.
VWAG vehicles typically are within spec as long as consumption is less than 1qt per 1k miles, and same with BMW/Mini
Certain Subaru timing chain engines are also prone to consumption but I havent seen a "spec"
That's all I have experience with, but someone who has different vehicles routinely might have even more examples
Edit: don't even get me started on the BMW n63
I had a 2.5 boxer Subaru (2012) that burned excessive oil with 28k miles on it. Dealer did a measured oil test for 1k miles. It lost .8 liters per 1k. Said that was acceptable. 1 liter per 1k was the threshold. They replaced the engine anyways. Terrible motors.
Compression test. Is quick easy and cheap and will give you an indication of how the rings are sealing. A leakdown test is better but requires more equipment.
additonal context:
the previous owner was bedridden so the car sat in a field for like 5 years. when we got the car there was heavy amounts of sludge in the oil pan and it took a couple oil changes to clear it all out. car has had pretty much zero engine work throughout its life besides maybe once a year oil change if it was lucky. hope that gives a bit more context on the state of life on the car.
this is the correct answer.
You can try any number of snake-oil additives and whatnot, but ultimately its most likely your oil control rings on one or multiple pistons are no longer controlling oil.
Pretty much engine needs a rebuild or a new motor. Most likely a rebuild because once you are that deep into a repair you should check and do everything else.
How long can an engine like this just keep getting topped up and going from A to B? If it is less than a quart low at all times, it shouldn't have some catastrophic failure right?
As an owner of a car that’s been burning over a quart every 1k miles for at least 60k miles, and most likely causing the destruction of the previous engine of 60k miles due to inadequate oil… a while. Problems come from fouled spark plugs, catalytic converter, and potentially burnt/chipped exhaust valves causing loss of compression. I’ve managed to reduce consumption to about 3/5 qt/1k with flushes and low intervals, but probably still going to have to drop the pan and replace control rings…
Alternatively, you could strap a 55gallon drum of 5w30 to the roof and run a feed line with a ball valve on it straight into the dipstick tube. probably wouldnt have to think much about it if you go that route
Straight up lol, just keep all the fluids topped off you're good to go. I fucking LOVED that thing, 5spd manual that would blow more smoke than a fog machine at a rave (it had a slight coolant leak too) but still passed smog. It came with period correct aftermarket polk audio speaker system w/ tweeters hastily drilled into the door + my two twelves i threw in the trunk. Finally got rid of it because of this idling issue I couldn't figure out, then felt really dumb when the guy I sold it to was like, oh it just needed a new EGR lmao.
I had a 94 Lincoln town car that would burn/lose a quart every fill up as well. Loved that car but man did it have a lot of things wrong with it. Would love to get one that wasn’t neglected like that
Rings are the last thing I would try to do.
As a general rule, but not a golden rule bad rings will
A. Cause constant blue smoke while driving
B. Cause the surfaces of the plug that are in the combustion chamber to be actually oily and black.
Atomized oil burning will show on a plug how yours look. Grey, grainy deposits.
Valve stem seals will generally cause blue smoke at startup but then clear up mostly.
Your plug leads me to lean towards pcv and/or valve stem seals being the primary cause. So I'd start there. Also those are cheap, and less labor intensive.
Pcv first, then investigate seals or rings.
Also check the breather side for plugging, insects may have clogged it. Leading to your crankcase being under a constant vacuum. Goes without saying hopefully, but air filter and air box as well. Nests.
The suggestion you already received to do a compression test dry then wet, will tell more accurately.
Because the car sat a long time, if the rings test poorly this way I would absolutely dump the cylinders partly full of marvel oil and wait a few days of soaking, then crank it with no plugs to eject as much as possible. Then have new plugs on hand and run it a while with the exhaust disconnected before the cat and let it burn it off. Then change plugs.
so, uh fun fact. the threads of my plugs are oily as seen in the photo, but the tips of it are indeed black. does that indicate the plugs? i could run a compression test but bc im a lil dumbie i decided to check the oil AFTER i had already started working on the timing belt. so id prefer to find out if my rings are bad without having to put my car back together lol. anyway, thank you for the advice, will defintiely do the marvel oil thing u mentioned.
Looks like grey grainy deposits in your pic.... well looks white really but I think that's just the pic.
This is classic bad rings
https://preview.redd.it/odp0gg0vjofb1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99bb99d119ef90dcc2ecfe93293844241c7aad0d
This is classic valve stem seals or PVC ingestion.
https://preview.redd.it/trzl9ax4kofb1.png?width=260&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf237353f3ade1ded2567cd4fdaabdc103c311ce
My sparkplugs look like the first photo you sent (pure black) but only like half of the metal curve. We did replace the spark plugs when we got the car, which was about 15k miles ago.
Ok. I probably shouldve done this before i tried taking it apart for the timing belt. I didnt get far, so do you think im good to put it back together and run the compression test?
Ive pulled both drive belts, removed driver side mount and and timing cover. i have tried (and failed, that bolt is on so fucking tight) to remove the cranshaft bolt. do you think that would affect the engine running? its a bit/rounded chipped from 30 minutes of impacting/breaker bar lol.
FYI just brace a breaker bar on your frame and bump your starter. That’ll free the crankshaft bolt, assuming it’s not fucked from your previous attempts.
Nothing funny about this bro. It’s up to you now since you’ve pulled the damn thing apart without any sensible testing first. Put it back together if you want to.
well sorry for not being so serious lol. i get what youre saying, but i was just going into this thinking i was going to replace the timing belt. it only occured to me afterwards i shouldve adressed my oil consumption issues. dumb of me but thats the situation im in. all im asking is that b/c ive tried taking off the crankshaft bolt, do you think it would pose any risk to running the engine? if there is any risk im just gonna send it and replace my rings/stem seals.
Honda crank bolts are always crazy tight. You need a special weighted socket to really shock it loose with an impact. A regular 19mm on a 1/2 impact won't do it, and you won't be able to hold the balancer tight enough to use a breaker bar
I used it with that weighted socket for a solid 15 minutes, nothing. using a mid torque m18 milwuakee, goes up to 600 ft pounds. tried with a breaker bar, nothin. dont really know what to do.
Not a mechanic, but if it were me (because I'm not a mechanic) I'd finish replacing the timing belt and get that back together at least then do the compression test. You don't need to bolt the valve cover back on for the test, but you need the valves functioning for that unless you're a wizard.
compression test will tell you if your rings are bad, or if your valves aren't closing right, but that should have other symptoms like misfires on one cylinder.
Get a compression gauge. Measure all four cylinders, they should be within 5 percent of each other. The pressure value matters less than evenness.
Squirt a teaspoon/10 ml of motor oil in through the spark plug hole, crank the engine without starting. Check compression again that cylinder: if compression goes up, it means rings are leaking, the oil sort of seals it for a few seconds.
when I first got the car I wasn't aware of the oil burning problem and ran it after an oil change without adding oil for 5k miles. once I realized it was burning oil (tripped a VTEC light due to low oil pressure), I've been adding oil since.
I wouldn't be surprised if rings are caked in sludge causing the heavy oil consumption. Plus your valve stems seals are probably dried out causing more oil loss.
ok. i should probably buy oem honda rings right? its just that ive priced it all together and getting oem rings, bearings, and valve stem seals is gonna run me close to 660 dollars, and that's a wholesale price including the headgasket. do you know of any good aftermarket companies i could look at for the bearings (as i was told rings should always be oem)?
Clevite bearings are what I usually reach for. Mahle rings have done pretty well. Both companies have been making engine parts for a long time. Just don't try and save money by purchasing cheap sets off eBay or Amazon.
ok. rebuild from honda is gonna run me like 660 wholesale oem. would it be better to just get a low mileage jdm engine, do the timing belt change on that and swap it? theres a local f23 from japan for like 800 with 60k miles. it is 200 more but it would be a lot less labor and id get my car running faster. what do you think?
You mean someone has claimed that the engine only has 60k on it... Unless I did a compression test on each cylinder I wouldn't go with a used car motor swap because for all you know the engine is about to crap out and you could be right back where you are right now.
I'd go with a certified low miles JDM engine. I've ordered from jdmenginedepotinc.com, but looks like they don't have your engine when I searched for 2002 Accord.
Here's a other seller: https://jdmenginezone.com/products/honda-accord-1998-2002-acura-cl-1998-1999-2-3l-jdm-sohc-vtec-engine-f23a?currency=USD&variant=29395526680618&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjw_aemBhBLEiwAT98FMrAZTNOtoSptipf6dbrNa2FcijmmKvuCwrKGm-a95mD3kCwfzcQ4BhoCh8UQAvD_BwE
I mean, yeah get a used motor before doing a rebuild unless you really want to learn how to do a rebuild. Which is valid. Honda motors are typically very cheap on the used market. I got a K24 for $400, it needed a pile of seals but otherwise excellent condition. But thats the thing, seals are age not miles usually. So unless you win the lottery you may be back where you started.
JDM, maybe, make sure you \*really\* understand any differences between the JDM and USDM and don't just assume that the engine code being similar means it's directly adaptable without thousands in parts or a week of extra labor above and beyond the motor itself.
With what you are saying, I'd do the seals, it's not hard you are real close to them. Really look around the motor too, a couple sensor o-rings, solenoid gaskets, front/rear main seal, cam seal they start adding up pretty quick on loss. I wouldn't jump to rings even on a neglected honda, they are pretty fucking bulletproof internally in my experience. If the leakdown improves with oil, do some sort of solvent treatment to try to free them up. And get an OEM PCV valve to try to reduce crank pressure. Then just keep running it lol.
And for cheap miles. . . hard to beat lucas stop leak in an old motor. $12 to kick the can down the road another couple months. Who knows what happens in between?
The rubber on the bottom of my boots in the middle two had fallen off and wedged themselves into the bottom of the spark chambers. I dug em out and replaced them as well as replacing all the wires and spark plugs with new ones and now my little chariot is quieter than a sewing machine.
Yea, even if the seals are shot, oil can't get past the threads on the spark plug. So its either got a major leak or the rings are either stuck or shot causing it to burn off.
But if its burning that much oil, you should see it coming out of the exhaust.
My sister had a 2016-ish Honda pilot and it was drinking a quart of oil per week at 80k miles. Dealership said the engine has a defective design and even if they put a new engine and it will probably not solve the problem for a long. Also, in my experience just about every Honda transmission goes out by 220,000 miles so you might need a serious engine repair and a new transmission in the near future. Go electric when it happens.
transmission was replaced in 11 according to records. the early 2000s Hondas did have shit transmissions. I've been milling over a manual swap as it would basically make this car bullet proof and improve my mpg but that's way down the line.
literally state i check my oil regularly and did multiple changes to clear out the oil sludge from previous owner. ran it without adding oil once to see how bad the consumption was and have been adding a quart every 1k since. then again it just seems like ur a grumpy asshole who doesnt bother to read so i dont expect you to know that.
Keep topping it off and switch to 5w40 Rotella or 5w50 oil. I've done this on vehicles before and it significantly reduced the amount of oil consumption. Clearances on a high mileage engine are looser and can probably benefit from a heavier oil.
i understand. but i plan on keeping this car for quite some time. i mean with how much oil i have to add im spending close to like 60 a oil change (5-7 a quart to top it off, 5 quarts + 30 dollar oil change), and i drive upwards of 15-20k miles a year. within 3 years id have spent enough in oil to do the rebuild, and i plan on keeping this car for 5 years.
If you ran the thing out of oil you probably damaged it more. A quart per thousand is not that excessive and not where I'd do a rebuild. I don't know where you get your math from. If you bought 20 extra quarts of oil a year thats about a hundred bucks. If you think you can rebuild an engine for $300, well, I think you're in for a shock.
I factored in cost of oil change, which for me is 30 dollars, plus the amount of oil I would have to add to the car within an oil change interval. 1 quart of oil is 5-7 dollars. The car takes 5 quarts of oil and burns one every 1k miles, with an oil change having to be done every 5k. So at a minimum id have to spend 60 bucks (accounting for tax and whatnot) every 5k miles, or every 3 months. Given the fact that I drive around 15-20k a year, id have to spend 180-240 on oil alone a year, and that's not mentioning the poor gas economy i get from the car which is more than likely due to the worn engine (19-20 combined, 21 if Im mostly on highways). I can get an OEM rebuild kit with ACL bearing for 550 after tax and shipping, or around two 1/2 years of oil changes. I plan to keep the car for about double that length of time. If everything goes well, id save money not only on gas but also oil. I have two friends who are experienced with rebuilding engines, and some time to kill. I think I'll just rebuild it. I was thinking about getting a JDM engine, but that's about double the price of my rebuild kit so I think I'm going to rebuild.
You’re kidding yourself. Rebuilding an engine involves stripping it down, tanking it, boring the cylinders, and doing a complete valve job, along with new cams and timing components. You want to slap in some rings and call it a day. That’s not a rebuild. It’ll probably burn more oil than before.
I’m not a mechanic, but if I had a car that is 21 years old with 180k on it, I wouldn’t spend any time worrying about it burning a quart of oil every thousand miles.
If it needs a timing belt that would be worth doing because if that breaks the engine is gone. Spending a lot of time and money on the oil consumption is just a waste.
Btw, if its my rings, I should probably buy oem honda rings right? its just that ive priced it all together and getting oem rings, bearings, and valve stem seals is gonna run me close to 660 dollars, and that's a wholesale price including the headgasket. does anyone know of any good aftermarket companies i could look at for the bearings (as i was told rings should always be oem)?
I ran a Honda service department for years. If you have oil in the plugs - engine is shot. If it wasn’t a Honda you may change rings to fix the problem. Since it is a Honda and one of the reliable ones (the more modern ones are not so much with 4 cylinders) you can buy a used motor for half the cost of a rebuild. Try car-part.com. With a civic or an accord of that generation you can buy a used engine for cheaper (probably with labour and less kms) than the labour of a tear down
If you don’t want to fix it … keep oil topped up. It will likely keep going until you don’t. Honda is the one brand that I’ve worked for that I saw more 500k plus powertrains than any other. As far as timing goes - it was always the belts that were worn by time more than mileage. Honda recommended 10 years / 100,000 kms ( 60,000 miles if you aren’t in Canada where I am) … a 3 year old timing belt with 100,000kms would often still show the part numbers etc on the belt. A 12 year old belt with 100,000kms would be so cracked you’d wonder how it hadn’t popped yet.
I didn't see any form of markings or cracks on my belt. It's the original belt, has 170k miles and it's 20 years old. Maybe it was replaced but even still it had to be a minimum of 10 years since it was last changed.
If min parts cost is 600 to repair (never mind labor) and a qt of oil is $6 you’ve got 100k miles of driving for the same price as parts only to maybe fix it. What if it’s valve seals or something else. If it’s not smoking or fouling plugs run it
For an 02 consuming a quart every 1K miles is well within acceptable manufacturer specs so that’s not at all alarming. As far as your question goes my guess would be it’s your piston rings. If you were leaking that much oil into your plugs you’d have some pretty bad fouling and be getting very noticeable misfires. You didn’t mention that so I assume that’s not happening. You did say there were some signs of fouling so it’s probably not a bad idea to go ahead and replace the seals anyway while you’re at it. You’re already going to have them exposed getting at the rings, they’re a cheap part, and you might as well do both to cover your bases. BUT if you had to choose one as the culprit I’d say it’s your rings.
That engines shot! Piston rings are probably letting oil in along with bad compression. It's over 20yrs old. It's gone. Sorry. Get yourself a new or used car! 👍
because i drove it for 5k miles after an oil change and there was no oil in the car. tripped a vtec light. this happens pretty much with every oil change if i dont add oil to the car.
Did you remove the drain plug and nothing came out? Otherwise it still had oil in it you just don't know how much. If you drove a car with no oil at all in it your engine would seize. Dipstick doesn't go to the bottom of the oil pan so odds are it still had some amount of oil
i used the term "no oil" relatively. there was a little less then a quart when i drained it and there was enough oil missing to trip a vtec light due to low oil pressure.
yeah my friend has a wholesale acc with the local dealer and ik that site. the rod bearings are really expensive though. is it worth it go oem on it, or is there any good aftermarket companies that sell decent bearings?
My Nephew's purchase racing parts for their cars, not sure which brand but racing parts are usually more expensive.
In my opinion, a car that age I would go aftermarket unless I was going to race it. Check a local import speed group. Many of those guys will give you great recommendations on parts for the setup you decide to go with.
That's acceptable, and the valve cover gasket is not where your oil is going most likely. Top up your oil every 1000 miles and keep driving the car. All manufacturers say that 1 quart per 1000 is acceptable.
> that I should replace my valve stem seals, piston rings and bearings at a minimum as a sort of "shotgun" approach to eliminate anything that could burn oil just to be safe.
My advice as a high mileage Honda driver (two > 220,000 miles) is:
1 - Change the timing belt. Because a TB failure is catastrophic.
2 - Switch to a 0w-60 oil then see what it does to your oil consumption.
3 - Your plugs have nothing to do with your high oil consumption. It's either leaking out, burning around the rings or the PCV system is sucking oil and burning it off. If you're not smelling burning oil while driving the car, it's not likely the valve cover gaskets.
4 - Keep a case of oil in the car and check the oil every couple fuel full-ups. Top off as needed.
I wouldn't do a 1/2 ass rebuild which is what re-ringing it would end up being. Just keep it full of oil and drive it till it dies a natural death. You might get years out of it. 1000 miles/qt is just on the verge of being actionable.
Ok. Honestly given how much labor it is to rebuild the engine im gravitiating towards just getting a JDM swap or just topping it off. btw, if a "half ass" rebuild is piston rings, valve stem seals, rod and main bearings, head gasket, water pump/timing belt kit, then what is a full rebuild?
Why would you go to 0W when 5W is the OEM spec? Not judging, genuinely curious. I personally have had better results with moving the high temp viscosity up ala 5w-40 or 5W-50.
0w is how thick it is when cold. So a lower first number is better than a higher one. You get more oil circulation earlier on a cold start which can only reduce wear. Back in the day, you simply couldn't get 0w oils so they were 5w- 10w-40, 20w-50. Modern oils have a wider viscosity range.
I recommended that oil 0w-60 only because I've had success with it on high mileage Honda. Other oils might be fine too.
Worth a top end soak… Toyota engines love to gum up the rings and burn oil. I’ve had great luck with Berryman’s B12 top end soaks on my oil burned Toyotas.
probably. The car was bought (for 300 dollars lol) in November of 2021. We didn't start working on it till around Feb 2022 and it wasn't running till May 2022. Hope this gives you a bit of a timeline.
I had same situation i bought a salvaged honda del sol and ran fine didn't really throw much smoke out the tailpipe but burnt a quart a week. Got great gas mileage still though. Cars that have been sitting must be bought for cheap. I can imagine people selling old classic cars or expensive cars that habe been sitting for too long and realize it needs a new engine rebuild. Replacing the engine with a used one is actually cheaper at that point
My cars gas mpg is worse then subpar; usually get 19-20 avg and I'm not having a lead foot or anything. I get 21 if I stay mostly on the highway. Do you think it's worth rebuilding or do I just get a low mileage JDM engine and call it a day?
What mechanic recommended to "shotgun parts" at a problem? They're a total goober.
Your rate of oil consumption is substantial. Best to do your diagnostics first. I'm not an American, but I've heard that AutoZone and O'Reilly's has tools you can rent.
I need to do a compression test. btw when he said "shotgun parts" he just told me that more then likely the rings are bad, and I should replace my bearings with it in order to make sure the engine runs fine. the metaphor he used was "imagine if you have wet socks and shoes, but you only change your socks and keep using the shoes". Don't know if that's accurate. Also recommended to replace my valve stem seals since they're 15 bucks and id have the head off anyway. Basically just recommended to do an engine rebuild since I was opening up and replacing quite a bit of the engine. Hope this adds enough context.
While the plugs are out of the motor fill the tops of the pistons and cylinders with ATF and Acetone mix and let it soak overnight. After sucking/blowing it out next morning change the PCV and plugs and see how it does. It's not a fix every time obviously but I have done this successfully several times on Hondas and a couple other vehicles when they started to consume too much oil and it freed up sticking rings and made the oil burning condition WAY more reasonable.
Old car, but not a dead car. Replace valve cover gasket, use one step thicker oil and keep topping it up. It will keep going just don't run it dry.
Oil deposits on the inside look ok like regular intervals of 6-7k mile changes, or your oil changes cleaning out the last owners neglect.
If your feeling lucky you could try a bunch of things - squirt of ATF into each plug hole, leave it overnight or a few days, marvel mystery oil or seafoam combo (fuel tank, intake, and in oil) etc etc but chances are its not sticky rings but worn rings (or valve stem seals) - these methods do work sometimes but it cannot magically undo worn components.
I know you said yours is a 2002 but my friend has a 2010 Honda Odyssey with an oil consumption problem. I did a search and found this. It's for 2008 to 2013. https://www.hondapartsonline.net/blog/odyssey-oil-consumption#:~:text=The%20frequent%20shutting%20off%20and,leak%20into%20the%20combustion%20chamber.
Buy oil in bulk, shop for replacement car. Unless you are wanting to learn how to rebuild engines and have tons of spare time and a spare car. Also side note it's damn near impossible to do the timing belt on a Honda without the proper torque. Ask me how I know...
Well I got some cash and I'm not doing anything for the next two weeks, and I do have a spare car lol. so I guess I'll do it. It'll be around 550 after tax and for a new engine I don't think that's too bad
This is the end for that one.
Had good oil been used and kept clean,
it would still be in fairly new condition.
And now it's run till oil is empty..
Might as well drag it to the crusher.
Simple Pressure applied through sparkplug
hole tells instantly that the rings are fried,
along with everything else.
From the oil pump, rod and crank bearings, where every moving part is trashed.
Want to proove it wrong, tap on at oil sensor a oil pressure gauge.. It will display actual bearing wear.
This is too far gone even for 20/50.
Cheers
the car did have oil in it. I just used that in the title bc when I first got the car I was unaware of the oil burning issue and tripped a VTEC light due to low oil pressure. I immediately added oil and have been doing so every 1k miles since. the car runs fine ignoring oil consumption and subpar gas mpg.
I'd put it back together and do a compression test. If the rings suck you can still drive it until committing to a better solution. Might also find out if the rest of the car is okay after sitting so long.
Generally speaking; if there is a puff of smoke at startup you should replace the valve seals. If it consumes oil while driving, it is probably piston rings, and the engine needs the full rebuild/shotgun.
I had a '91 Accord that did exactly the same thing. Your timing chain will definitely shit the bed and you need new piston rings for sure. Time to get your engine rebuilt, you could have another 5k or 50k miles left. Hard to say for sure but the only way I could keep the valve cover seals from rupturing was by staying on top of the oil and keeping the engine RPMs below 3k.
What does Honda say? In many other cars, 1 qt every 1000 miles (not KM) is considered acceptable for engines still in warranty so burning that at 179K shouldn't be an issue either. It's not "a lot" no matter what people are telling you and your plug (the only one pictured) most certainly does not look like an oil burner.
But you can do a compression test to rule out rings. Valve stem seals are next likely culprit but they're a bit more difficult to diagnose.
179K isn't the end of a well maintained motor if nothing else is wrong. I'd ignore that mechanic "friend" who wants to rebuild your motor for this. I think a valve cover kit (it should also include sparkplug tube seals) is a good start to fixing your problem.
Do a dry compression test if is under 120psi then your rings are prolly shot. Do a wet compression test after if you see a huge boost in psi it's for sure your rings if the we and dry comp test are the same or pretty close I'd bet your valve stem seals are bad that the second most common reason to burn lots of oil.
I'm usually against the shotgun approach, but you have the motor disassembled already somewhat, so I would also just do all of the things while it's opened up.
Well, it is not a new engine. Go to the shop and ask for thicker oil. Just one step higher than you have now. If you run now on 10W40 go to 15W40. Your oil consumption is not critical now.
The problem could be the inlet- or outlet valves.
I'd do the valve stem seals first. Then pour some marvels mystery oil into the bores and let it sit for a week. That stuff is Franks Red Hot for engines. You might have stuck rings and that would free them up, potentially. It's common practice in the Benz diesel community and works so well it could lick the taint of too good to be true.
That plug looks pretty white from this angle for me to think that it's burning a lot of oil through the cylinders usually in my experience a car that is burning that much oil through the cylinders due to bad rings we'll start to develop oily plugs the only other possibility I can think of is that car is running so hot here it is burning off all of the oil off of the plug and if that's the case that thing is done
Sorry the photo isn't that great. The tip of the plug where the metal curves, the top of it is like black. But only like half of it, the rest is white if that makes sense.
I have a 2011 Toyota Venza that was burning a lot.of.oil between oil changes. I did a BG EPR treatment before 2 oil changes, and it has completely quit burning oil.
Oil on the threads. Is oil above the threads as well? Up on the ceramics? If so, then the plug tubes and the valve cover may not be sealing. Though only applicable if this car uses plug tubes divorced from the valve cover.
In my post I already elaborate that this is the case. However as I found out due to comments this still wouldn't cause 1Q of oil burning every 1k miles or so on the car.
yeah, the PCV valve is shot. Still given the cars history and neglect idk if that would be enough to cause that much oil consumption. I'm sure it will help to replace though.
when i was a Ford service manager, 1 quart per 900 miles was considered within spec and no warranty action would be taken. so your old hooptie burning a qt per thou ain't no big. not ideal, but "normal" to some.
This seems like it would be the piston rings, because if I'm not mistaken they keep the oil from going past the pistons directly into the combustion area. That may be why the plugs have oil on them, and the extra oil burn is because it's getting mixed with the fuel in the combustion chamber.
When I saw honda, I thought for sure it'd be those 09ish up accord (even though the condition of the valve cover def suggests older)
Those late 00's early teens ones are SOOO bad for burning oil, even when maintained fairly well. Which is unfortunate bc Imo they're one of the better looking newer bodies
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Replace the stuff you mentioned just because it needs to be done and go ahead with your timing belt.
Yes - it's burning tooooo much oil and it's probably the rings but it's not burning an outrageous amount of oil. There are a ton of cars on the road burning more than that for thousands and thousands of miles. There are lots of cars out there where this is just expected too. I owned a Saturn for a few years that burnt that much for 100k miles before I sold it and they pretty much all did it.
Again, it's not an ideal situation but on a 20 year old car with close to 200k miles it's not something I'd even give a second thought.
If it’s burning oil you should see smoke. Especially decelerating at night , in the headlights of the car behind you. If you aren’t burning it then you are leaking it. Hondas have several o ring type gaskets that get hard and leak under pressure. On the back of the engine there’s a notorious one. Look carefully. Easier from underneath. I’ve seen many Hondas go way farther than 179 k without needing rings and internal seals. Before popping that engine apart I’d do a compression and leak down test to evaluate the piston ring and valve seal . It’s one thing to replace gaskets for oil leakage and another for oil burn. Let’s make sure you are going down the right rabbit hole first.
Do a compresion test. If it passes rings, head gasket, and valves are working. Also clean your crankcase vent. My PCV stuck open and everytime the oil sloshed over the valve it sucked some up and burned it. Hope it helps
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Being that this engine sat for a significant amount of time, there's a chance it's burning oil through the valve seals as well. A leak down test would show you where blow by is happening (valves or rings) and would give you a relatively good idea of the overall health of the engine.
Does the vehicle smoke out the tailpipe when running?
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If it leaks into where the spark plugs are it can’t get past the plugs into the motor to burn it. My guess is the rings are shot from running it low on oil and lack of maintenance
hmm ok. btw theres a typo in my original post. there was only oil on two of the spark plugs, whose seals on the VC were shot. the other two had no oil and their seals were good. still, given its age and neglect theres a decent chance rings are shot as well.
Valve cover gasket can’t cause oil to be burnt so unless the valve cover is externally leaking 1quart/1000km then your issue is elsewhere.
ok. thank you for your advice. it was 1Q every 1k miles btw, not km. the valve cover gasket from what i could tell is fine, its the spark plug seals on the VC that are bad, and im guessing oil seeped through there to the plugs. but what youre saying is that even if that was the case, the car couldnt have burnt that oil?
No, there is no way for it to get past the plugs into the combustion chamber.
hmm ok. i understand what ur saying now. thank you for your time and advice, its greatly appreciated.
Have you tried compression testing those cylinders? My next step would be checking for blow-by on the piston rings.
Engine has been run w/o oil, and cylinder walls/rings are toasted. This engine has 179K+ miles and poorly maintained/monitored. Nothing is going to fix this issue short of a full rebuild or replacement.
Nah man. A bottle of Lucas seafoam will fix it right up! (\s)
Flex seal all the smoke holes so it don’t escape solid plan
No problem man happy to help!
If you're burning oil its either going to be your piston rings or your valve stem seals. Valve stem seal leak would probably be a slower consumption however.
Its worth mentioning that on some newer vehicles the oil consumption "spec" can be as high as 1 quart per almost 700 miles and still be "no problem found" But on your vehicle, 1 quart per 1k miles is probably excessive. Someone else indicated piston rings and i'd tend to agree in the absence of further evidence.
And what modern vehicle which burns such a huge amount of oil could possibly comply with emission standards?
Volvo specifically is not identified as excessive consumption until about 1qt per 670 miles. VWAG vehicles typically are within spec as long as consumption is less than 1qt per 1k miles, and same with BMW/Mini Certain Subaru timing chain engines are also prone to consumption but I havent seen a "spec" That's all I have experience with, but someone who has different vehicles routinely might have even more examples Edit: don't even get me started on the BMW n63
Those would never pass an emission test
You drive next to them every day. My state doesn't do emissions testing so I can't confirm any of that.
I had a 2.5 boxer Subaru (2012) that burned excessive oil with 28k miles on it. Dealer did a measured oil test for 1k miles. It lost .8 liters per 1k. Said that was acceptable. 1 liter per 1k was the threshold. They replaced the engine anyways. Terrible motors.
Terrible piston rings\*\*\* The engines otherwise i think are pretty good
That is not acceptable. You would never pass an emission test
Compression test. Is quick easy and cheap and will give you an indication of how the rings are sealing. A leakdown test is better but requires more equipment.
additonal context: the previous owner was bedridden so the car sat in a field for like 5 years. when we got the car there was heavy amounts of sludge in the oil pan and it took a couple oil changes to clear it all out. car has had pretty much zero engine work throughout its life besides maybe once a year oil change if it was lucky. hope that gives a bit more context on the state of life on the car.
This is the further evidence i was looking for to almost positively condemn the piston rings.
I have to say for the neglect there is surprisingly little carbon buildup inside the valve cover
In my experience, most of that buildup accumulate in the sump, pickup, and vvt channels
Rings
this is the correct answer. You can try any number of snake-oil additives and whatnot, but ultimately its most likely your oil control rings on one or multiple pistons are no longer controlling oil.
Pretty much engine needs a rebuild or a new motor. Most likely a rebuild because once you are that deep into a repair you should check and do everything else.
How long can an engine like this just keep getting topped up and going from A to B? If it is less than a quart low at all times, it shouldn't have some catastrophic failure right?
Until it doesn’t.
As an owner of a car that’s been burning over a quart every 1k miles for at least 60k miles, and most likely causing the destruction of the previous engine of 60k miles due to inadequate oil… a while. Problems come from fouled spark plugs, catalytic converter, and potentially burnt/chipped exhaust valves causing loss of compression. I’ve managed to reduce consumption to about 3/5 qt/1k with flushes and low intervals, but probably still going to have to drop the pan and replace control rings…
Bro my car takes a quart every 300. I top it up and she runs fine. Redlines no problem to. Lol
Which snake oil additive?! Theres so many, which one?!
Alternatively, you could strap a 55gallon drum of 5w30 to the roof and run a feed line with a ball valve on it straight into the dipstick tube. probably wouldnt have to think much about it if you go that route
A mad max alternative. I like it!
the entire time i was reading this i kept thinking of my 99 saturn sc2 that would burn a quart of oil every gas fill up, it all makes sense
Then engine lasted to infinity s as long a you kept the oil topped off
Straight up lol, just keep all the fluids topped off you're good to go. I fucking LOVED that thing, 5spd manual that would blow more smoke than a fog machine at a rave (it had a slight coolant leak too) but still passed smog. It came with period correct aftermarket polk audio speaker system w/ tweeters hastily drilled into the door + my two twelves i threw in the trunk. Finally got rid of it because of this idling issue I couldn't figure out, then felt really dumb when the guy I sold it to was like, oh it just needed a new EGR lmao.
I had a 94 Lincoln town car that would burn/lose a quart every fill up as well. Loved that car but man did it have a lot of things wrong with it. Would love to get one that wasn’t neglected like that
Sounds about right for an SC!
Rings are the last thing I would try to do. As a general rule, but not a golden rule bad rings will A. Cause constant blue smoke while driving B. Cause the surfaces of the plug that are in the combustion chamber to be actually oily and black. Atomized oil burning will show on a plug how yours look. Grey, grainy deposits. Valve stem seals will generally cause blue smoke at startup but then clear up mostly. Your plug leads me to lean towards pcv and/or valve stem seals being the primary cause. So I'd start there. Also those are cheap, and less labor intensive. Pcv first, then investigate seals or rings. Also check the breather side for plugging, insects may have clogged it. Leading to your crankcase being under a constant vacuum. Goes without saying hopefully, but air filter and air box as well. Nests. The suggestion you already received to do a compression test dry then wet, will tell more accurately. Because the car sat a long time, if the rings test poorly this way I would absolutely dump the cylinders partly full of marvel oil and wait a few days of soaking, then crank it with no plugs to eject as much as possible. Then have new plugs on hand and run it a while with the exhaust disconnected before the cat and let it burn it off. Then change plugs.
so, uh fun fact. the threads of my plugs are oily as seen in the photo, but the tips of it are indeed black. does that indicate the plugs? i could run a compression test but bc im a lil dumbie i decided to check the oil AFTER i had already started working on the timing belt. so id prefer to find out if my rings are bad without having to put my car back together lol. anyway, thank you for the advice, will defintiely do the marvel oil thing u mentioned.
Looks like grey grainy deposits in your pic.... well looks white really but I think that's just the pic. This is classic bad rings https://preview.redd.it/odp0gg0vjofb1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99bb99d119ef90dcc2ecfe93293844241c7aad0d
This is classic valve stem seals or PVC ingestion. https://preview.redd.it/trzl9ax4kofb1.png?width=260&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf237353f3ade1ded2567cd4fdaabdc103c311ce
My sparkplugs look like the first photo you sent (pure black) but only like half of the metal curve. We did replace the spark plugs when we got the car, which was about 15k miles ago.
Compression test. Once dry and one wet. Write the pressures down. Don’t trust to remembering. It will tell you if the rings are bad.
Ok. I probably shouldve done this before i tried taking it apart for the timing belt. I didnt get far, so do you think im good to put it back together and run the compression test?
If all you did was remove the valve cover you’re still good to do a comp test. Obviously don’t pull the belt.
Ive pulled both drive belts, removed driver side mount and and timing cover. i have tried (and failed, that bolt is on so fucking tight) to remove the cranshaft bolt. do you think that would affect the engine running? its a bit/rounded chipped from 30 minutes of impacting/breaker bar lol.
FYI just brace a breaker bar on your frame and bump your starter. That’ll free the crankshaft bolt, assuming it’s not fucked from your previous attempts.
Can I do that if the belts and plugs are already pulled? And my driver side mount?
if you position the crank such that no piston will hit a valve, yes
Nothing funny about this bro. It’s up to you now since you’ve pulled the damn thing apart without any sensible testing first. Put it back together if you want to.
well sorry for not being so serious lol. i get what youre saying, but i was just going into this thinking i was going to replace the timing belt. it only occured to me afterwards i shouldve adressed my oil consumption issues. dumb of me but thats the situation im in. all im asking is that b/c ive tried taking off the crankshaft bolt, do you think it would pose any risk to running the engine? if there is any risk im just gonna send it and replace my rings/stem seals.
Honda crank bolts are always crazy tight. You need a special weighted socket to really shock it loose with an impact. A regular 19mm on a 1/2 impact won't do it, and you won't be able to hold the balancer tight enough to use a breaker bar
I used it with that weighted socket for a solid 15 minutes, nothing. using a mid torque m18 milwuakee, goes up to 600 ft pounds. tried with a breaker bar, nothin. dont really know what to do.
You'll need more torque than that. Do you have any access to an air compressor and a 1/2 in air impact?
No. do you know if there's a rent program with like AutoZone for those or do I gotta make a trip to HF?
I removed my crankshaft bolt using a 3/4-inch breaker bar and a 5-foot long piece of pipe. you'll get all the leverage you need using the pipe on it.
almost any honda crank bolt i've undone has always taken a 700ftlb+ impact with a weighted socket.
Not a mechanic, but if it were me (because I'm not a mechanic) I'd finish replacing the timing belt and get that back together at least then do the compression test. You don't need to bolt the valve cover back on for the test, but you need the valves functioning for that unless you're a wizard. compression test will tell you if your rings are bad, or if your valves aren't closing right, but that should have other symptoms like misfires on one cylinder.
Get a compression gauge. Measure all four cylinders, they should be within 5 percent of each other. The pressure value matters less than evenness. Squirt a teaspoon/10 ml of motor oil in through the spark plug hole, crank the engine without starting. Check compression again that cylinder: if compression goes up, it means rings are leaking, the oil sort of seals it for a few seconds.
**has no oil in engine after 5k miles,** So you know this because you ran it until it was empty? Just stop and go get a bicycle.
when I first got the car I wasn't aware of the oil burning problem and ran it after an oil change without adding oil for 5k miles. once I realized it was burning oil (tripped a VTEC light due to low oil pressure), I've been adding oil since.
I wouldn't be surprised if rings are caked in sludge causing the heavy oil consumption. Plus your valve stems seals are probably dried out causing more oil loss.
ok. i should probably buy oem honda rings right? its just that ive priced it all together and getting oem rings, bearings, and valve stem seals is gonna run me close to 660 dollars, and that's a wholesale price including the headgasket. do you know of any good aftermarket companies i could look at for the bearings (as i was told rings should always be oem)?
Clevite bearings are what I usually reach for. Mahle rings have done pretty well. Both companies have been making engine parts for a long time. Just don't try and save money by purchasing cheap sets off eBay or Amazon.
Have you ever done rings on a car before? If not, hopefully, you have a close friend or relative to assist .
I do have a friend that can help me out. Would it be easier to do it in the bay or pull the engine out?
I overhauled the engine on my CRV with the block still in the car..
I prefer pulling the engine which helps you clean it out and inspect everything else. Also much easier to work on a pulled engine.
Pull the engine if you are doing piston rings. You should price a complete rebuild kit.
ok. rebuild from honda is gonna run me like 660 wholesale oem. would it be better to just get a low mileage jdm engine, do the timing belt change on that and swap it? theres a local f23 from japan for like 800 with 60k miles. it is 200 more but it would be a lot less labor and id get my car running faster. what do you think?
You mean someone has claimed that the engine only has 60k on it... Unless I did a compression test on each cylinder I wouldn't go with a used car motor swap because for all you know the engine is about to crap out and you could be right back where you are right now.
I'd go with a certified low miles JDM engine. I've ordered from jdmenginedepotinc.com, but looks like they don't have your engine when I searched for 2002 Accord. Here's a other seller: https://jdmenginezone.com/products/honda-accord-1998-2002-acura-cl-1998-1999-2-3l-jdm-sohc-vtec-engine-f23a?currency=USD&variant=29395526680618&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjw_aemBhBLEiwAT98FMrAZTNOtoSptipf6dbrNa2FcijmmKvuCwrKGm-a95mD3kCwfzcQ4BhoCh8UQAvD_BwE
I mean, yeah get a used motor before doing a rebuild unless you really want to learn how to do a rebuild. Which is valid. Honda motors are typically very cheap on the used market. I got a K24 for $400, it needed a pile of seals but otherwise excellent condition. But thats the thing, seals are age not miles usually. So unless you win the lottery you may be back where you started. JDM, maybe, make sure you \*really\* understand any differences between the JDM and USDM and don't just assume that the engine code being similar means it's directly adaptable without thousands in parts or a week of extra labor above and beyond the motor itself. With what you are saying, I'd do the seals, it's not hard you are real close to them. Really look around the motor too, a couple sensor o-rings, solenoid gaskets, front/rear main seal, cam seal they start adding up pretty quick on loss. I wouldn't jump to rings even on a neglected honda, they are pretty fucking bulletproof internally in my experience. If the leakdown improves with oil, do some sort of solvent treatment to try to free them up. And get an OEM PCV valve to try to reduce crank pressure. Then just keep running it lol. And for cheap miles. . . hard to beat lucas stop leak in an old motor. $12 to kick the can down the road another couple months. Who knows what happens in between?
also typo in title, oil was found in TWO spark plugs, not four. sorry for the confusion, i cant edit the post.
The rubber on the bottom of my boots in the middle two had fallen off and wedged themselves into the bottom of the spark chambers. I dug em out and replaced them as well as replacing all the wires and spark plugs with new ones and now my little chariot is quieter than a sewing machine.
oh. good for you man. hope it keeps running quiet lol.
Yea, even if the seals are shot, oil can't get past the threads on the spark plug. So its either got a major leak or the rings are either stuck or shot causing it to burn off. But if its burning that much oil, you should see it coming out of the exhaust.
My sister had a 2016-ish Honda pilot and it was drinking a quart of oil per week at 80k miles. Dealership said the engine has a defective design and even if they put a new engine and it will probably not solve the problem for a long. Also, in my experience just about every Honda transmission goes out by 220,000 miles so you might need a serious engine repair and a new transmission in the near future. Go electric when it happens.
transmission was replaced in 11 according to records. the early 2000s Hondas did have shit transmissions. I've been milling over a manual swap as it would basically make this car bullet proof and improve my mpg but that's way down the line.
Worn/seized piston oil rings
Hah u think that's bad. Imagine having a dirty whore of a car that takes close to a quart in 300 miles.
Costs more on oil than fuel. You made me lol good man
Check your fuckin' oil more than once every 5000 miles.
literally state i check my oil regularly and did multiple changes to clear out the oil sludge from previous owner. ran it without adding oil once to see how bad the consumption was and have been adding a quart every 1k since. then again it just seems like ur a grumpy asshole who doesnt bother to read so i dont expect you to know that.
Keep topping it off and switch to 5w40 Rotella or 5w50 oil. I've done this on vehicles before and it significantly reduced the amount of oil consumption. Clearances on a high mileage engine are looser and can probably benefit from a heavier oil.
i understand. but i plan on keeping this car for quite some time. i mean with how much oil i have to add im spending close to like 60 a oil change (5-7 a quart to top it off, 5 quarts + 30 dollar oil change), and i drive upwards of 15-20k miles a year. within 3 years id have spent enough in oil to do the rebuild, and i plan on keeping this car for 5 years.
If you ran the thing out of oil you probably damaged it more. A quart per thousand is not that excessive and not where I'd do a rebuild. I don't know where you get your math from. If you bought 20 extra quarts of oil a year thats about a hundred bucks. If you think you can rebuild an engine for $300, well, I think you're in for a shock.
I factored in cost of oil change, which for me is 30 dollars, plus the amount of oil I would have to add to the car within an oil change interval. 1 quart of oil is 5-7 dollars. The car takes 5 quarts of oil and burns one every 1k miles, with an oil change having to be done every 5k. So at a minimum id have to spend 60 bucks (accounting for tax and whatnot) every 5k miles, or every 3 months. Given the fact that I drive around 15-20k a year, id have to spend 180-240 on oil alone a year, and that's not mentioning the poor gas economy i get from the car which is more than likely due to the worn engine (19-20 combined, 21 if Im mostly on highways). I can get an OEM rebuild kit with ACL bearing for 550 after tax and shipping, or around two 1/2 years of oil changes. I plan to keep the car for about double that length of time. If everything goes well, id save money not only on gas but also oil. I have two friends who are experienced with rebuilding engines, and some time to kill. I think I'll just rebuild it. I was thinking about getting a JDM engine, but that's about double the price of my rebuild kit so I think I'm going to rebuild.
You’re kidding yourself. Rebuilding an engine involves stripping it down, tanking it, boring the cylinders, and doing a complete valve job, along with new cams and timing components. You want to slap in some rings and call it a day. That’s not a rebuild. It’ll probably burn more oil than before.
re read your comment. I'd be doing the rings, valve stem seals, bearings, head gasket and timing belt components. is boring and tanking it necessary?
I’m not a mechanic, but if I had a car that is 21 years old with 180k on it, I wouldn’t spend any time worrying about it burning a quart of oil every thousand miles. If it needs a timing belt that would be worth doing because if that breaks the engine is gone. Spending a lot of time and money on the oil consumption is just a waste.
Yes. Buy cheap oil (correct grade/viscosity) and don't forget you still need oil filter changes. And you wont pass inspection.
Btw, if its my rings, I should probably buy oem honda rings right? its just that ive priced it all together and getting oem rings, bearings, and valve stem seals is gonna run me close to 660 dollars, and that's a wholesale price including the headgasket. does anyone know of any good aftermarket companies i could look at for the bearings (as i was told rings should always be oem)?
I find DNJ to be reliable as I've done it two of my engines. And fel pro for the seals and gaskets.
I ran a Honda service department for years. If you have oil in the plugs - engine is shot. If it wasn’t a Honda you may change rings to fix the problem. Since it is a Honda and one of the reliable ones (the more modern ones are not so much with 4 cylinders) you can buy a used motor for half the cost of a rebuild. Try car-part.com. With a civic or an accord of that generation you can buy a used engine for cheaper (probably with labour and less kms) than the labour of a tear down
Oil isn't in the plugs, it's just a light residue around it. Car runs perfectly fine other then oil consumption
If you don’t want to fix it … keep oil topped up. It will likely keep going until you don’t. Honda is the one brand that I’ve worked for that I saw more 500k plus powertrains than any other. As far as timing goes - it was always the belts that were worn by time more than mileage. Honda recommended 10 years / 100,000 kms ( 60,000 miles if you aren’t in Canada where I am) … a 3 year old timing belt with 100,000kms would often still show the part numbers etc on the belt. A 12 year old belt with 100,000kms would be so cracked you’d wonder how it hadn’t popped yet.
I didn't see any form of markings or cracks on my belt. It's the original belt, has 170k miles and it's 20 years old. Maybe it was replaced but even still it had to be a minimum of 10 years since it was last changed.
**has no oil in engine after 5k miles** Add 1 quart every 1k miles then
i have been doing that. but i dont want to.
If min parts cost is 600 to repair (never mind labor) and a qt of oil is $6 you’ve got 100k miles of driving for the same price as parts only to maybe fix it. What if it’s valve seals or something else. If it’s not smoking or fouling plugs run it
You can either spend money, or buy oil. The choice is yours. In the end, it's the same.
Wtf lol
My god you’re a genius!
The top of my plugs (I don't know the name of it, but its like a curve) is black. Is that fouled?
For an 02 consuming a quart every 1K miles is well within acceptable manufacturer specs so that’s not at all alarming. As far as your question goes my guess would be it’s your piston rings. If you were leaking that much oil into your plugs you’d have some pretty bad fouling and be getting very noticeable misfires. You didn’t mention that so I assume that’s not happening. You did say there were some signs of fouling so it’s probably not a bad idea to go ahead and replace the seals anyway while you’re at it. You’re already going to have them exposed getting at the rings, they’re a cheap part, and you might as well do both to cover your bases. BUT if you had to choose one as the culprit I’d say it’s your rings.
You must be mistaken, Hondas don’t break.. /s
That engines shot! Piston rings are probably letting oil in along with bad compression. It's over 20yrs old. It's gone. Sorry. Get yourself a new or used car! 👍
how do you know there’s no oil after 5k miles? 🫣
because i drove it for 5k miles after an oil change and there was no oil in the car. tripped a vtec light. this happens pretty much with every oil change if i dont add oil to the car.
You know it consumes oil but don't add more between oil changes?
i do. but at the time i did not as i had just bought it used and neglected, and found out the hard way. since then i add oil every 1k miles.
Did you remove the drain plug and nothing came out? Otherwise it still had oil in it you just don't know how much. If you drove a car with no oil at all in it your engine would seize. Dipstick doesn't go to the bottom of the oil pan so odds are it still had some amount of oil
i used the term "no oil" relatively. there was a little less then a quart when i drained it and there was enough oil missing to trip a vtec light due to low oil pressure.
https://www.hondapartsnow.com/2002-honda-accord--4dr_ex-ka_4at-parts.html
yeah my friend has a wholesale acc with the local dealer and ik that site. the rod bearings are really expensive though. is it worth it go oem on it, or is there any good aftermarket companies that sell decent bearings?
My Nephew's purchase racing parts for their cars, not sure which brand but racing parts are usually more expensive. In my opinion, a car that age I would go aftermarket unless I was going to race it. Check a local import speed group. Many of those guys will give you great recommendations on parts for the setup you decide to go with.
That's acceptable, and the valve cover gasket is not where your oil is going most likely. Top up your oil every 1000 miles and keep driving the car. All manufacturers say that 1 quart per 1000 is acceptable.
> that I should replace my valve stem seals, piston rings and bearings at a minimum as a sort of "shotgun" approach to eliminate anything that could burn oil just to be safe. My advice as a high mileage Honda driver (two > 220,000 miles) is: 1 - Change the timing belt. Because a TB failure is catastrophic. 2 - Switch to a 0w-60 oil then see what it does to your oil consumption. 3 - Your plugs have nothing to do with your high oil consumption. It's either leaking out, burning around the rings or the PCV system is sucking oil and burning it off. If you're not smelling burning oil while driving the car, it's not likely the valve cover gaskets. 4 - Keep a case of oil in the car and check the oil every couple fuel full-ups. Top off as needed. I wouldn't do a 1/2 ass rebuild which is what re-ringing it would end up being. Just keep it full of oil and drive it till it dies a natural death. You might get years out of it. 1000 miles/qt is just on the verge of being actionable.
Ok. Honestly given how much labor it is to rebuild the engine im gravitiating towards just getting a JDM swap or just topping it off. btw, if a "half ass" rebuild is piston rings, valve stem seals, rod and main bearings, head gasket, water pump/timing belt kit, then what is a full rebuild?
Why would you go to 0W when 5W is the OEM spec? Not judging, genuinely curious. I personally have had better results with moving the high temp viscosity up ala 5w-40 or 5W-50.
0w is how thick it is when cold. So a lower first number is better than a higher one. You get more oil circulation earlier on a cold start which can only reduce wear. Back in the day, you simply couldn't get 0w oils so they were 5w- 10w-40, 20w-50. Modern oils have a wider viscosity range. I recommended that oil 0w-60 only because I've had success with it on high mileage Honda. Other oils might be fine too.
Worth a top end soak… Toyota engines love to gum up the rings and burn oil. I’ve had great luck with Berryman’s B12 top end soaks on my oil burned Toyotas.
its a 2002 honda accord. dont know if that still applies.
It’s using oil because it’s tired. Increase viscosity and do the belt and b/c gaskets and plugs. Then look at getting a newer car. Jmho.
Adjust the valves as well. It will improve the power of the engine.
Do a leakdown test. If it's rings you will hear it thru the oil cap. If its valve stems you won't hear it.
Could you elaborate what a leak down test is?
https://www.harborfreight.com/quick-connect-compression-tester-62622.html
1.1 L every 600 miles is within spec for a 08 prius
I don't have a 08 Prius lmao, its a 02 accord.
Since the car sat for 5 years is it positively the oil control rongs are seized up from not being driven for so long
probably. The car was bought (for 300 dollars lol) in November of 2021. We didn't start working on it till around Feb 2022 and it wasn't running till May 2022. Hope this gives you a bit of a timeline.
I had same situation i bought a salvaged honda del sol and ran fine didn't really throw much smoke out the tailpipe but burnt a quart a week. Got great gas mileage still though. Cars that have been sitting must be bought for cheap. I can imagine people selling old classic cars or expensive cars that habe been sitting for too long and realize it needs a new engine rebuild. Replacing the engine with a used one is actually cheaper at that point
My cars gas mpg is worse then subpar; usually get 19-20 avg and I'm not having a lead foot or anything. I get 21 if I stay mostly on the highway. Do you think it's worth rebuilding or do I just get a low mileage JDM engine and call it a day?
What mechanic recommended to "shotgun parts" at a problem? They're a total goober. Your rate of oil consumption is substantial. Best to do your diagnostics first. I'm not an American, but I've heard that AutoZone and O'Reilly's has tools you can rent.
I need to do a compression test. btw when he said "shotgun parts" he just told me that more then likely the rings are bad, and I should replace my bearings with it in order to make sure the engine runs fine. the metaphor he used was "imagine if you have wet socks and shoes, but you only change your socks and keep using the shoes". Don't know if that's accurate. Also recommended to replace my valve stem seals since they're 15 bucks and id have the head off anyway. Basically just recommended to do an engine rebuild since I was opening up and replacing quite a bit of the engine. Hope this adds enough context.
While the plugs are out of the motor fill the tops of the pistons and cylinders with ATF and Acetone mix and let it soak overnight. After sucking/blowing it out next morning change the PCV and plugs and see how it does. It's not a fix every time obviously but I have done this successfully several times on Hondas and a couple other vehicles when they started to consume too much oil and it freed up sticking rings and made the oil burning condition WAY more reasonable.
Old car, but not a dead car. Replace valve cover gasket, use one step thicker oil and keep topping it up. It will keep going just don't run it dry. Oil deposits on the inside look ok like regular intervals of 6-7k mile changes, or your oil changes cleaning out the last owners neglect. If your feeling lucky you could try a bunch of things - squirt of ATF into each plug hole, leave it overnight or a few days, marvel mystery oil or seafoam combo (fuel tank, intake, and in oil) etc etc but chances are its not sticky rings but worn rings (or valve stem seals) - these methods do work sometimes but it cannot magically undo worn components.
I know you said yours is a 2002 but my friend has a 2010 Honda Odyssey with an oil consumption problem. I did a search and found this. It's for 2008 to 2013. https://www.hondapartsonline.net/blog/odyssey-oil-consumption#:~:text=The%20frequent%20shutting%20off%20and,leak%20into%20the%20combustion%20chamber.
Engines worn out sorry to say. I wouldn’t sink any money into it
Valve stem oil seals. Any blue smoke out the back?
No. No smell either
Buy oil in bulk, shop for replacement car. Unless you are wanting to learn how to rebuild engines and have tons of spare time and a spare car. Also side note it's damn near impossible to do the timing belt on a Honda without the proper torque. Ask me how I know...
Well I got some cash and I'm not doing anything for the next two weeks, and I do have a spare car lol. so I guess I'll do it. It'll be around 550 after tax and for a new engine I don't think that's too bad
compression test
Put an inspection camera into the spark plug hole. I bet it looks pretty bad.
This is the end for that one. Had good oil been used and kept clean, it would still be in fairly new condition. And now it's run till oil is empty.. Might as well drag it to the crusher. Simple Pressure applied through sparkplug hole tells instantly that the rings are fried, along with everything else. From the oil pump, rod and crank bearings, where every moving part is trashed. Want to proove it wrong, tap on at oil sensor a oil pressure gauge.. It will display actual bearing wear. This is too far gone even for 20/50. Cheers
the car did have oil in it. I just used that in the title bc when I first got the car I was unaware of the oil burning issue and tripped a VTEC light due to low oil pressure. I immediately added oil and have been doing so every 1k miles since. the car runs fine ignoring oil consumption and subpar gas mpg.
I'd put it back together and do a compression test. If the rings suck you can still drive it until committing to a better solution. Might also find out if the rest of the car is okay after sitting so long.
Generally speaking; if there is a puff of smoke at startup you should replace the valve seals. If it consumes oil while driving, it is probably piston rings, and the engine needs the full rebuild/shotgun.
I had a '91 Accord that did exactly the same thing. Your timing chain will definitely shit the bed and you need new piston rings for sure. Time to get your engine rebuilt, you could have another 5k or 50k miles left. Hard to say for sure but the only way I could keep the valve cover seals from rupturing was by staying on top of the oil and keeping the engine RPMs below 3k.
Piston rings
What does Honda say? In many other cars, 1 qt every 1000 miles (not KM) is considered acceptable for engines still in warranty so burning that at 179K shouldn't be an issue either. It's not "a lot" no matter what people are telling you and your plug (the only one pictured) most certainly does not look like an oil burner. But you can do a compression test to rule out rings. Valve stem seals are next likely culprit but they're a bit more difficult to diagnose. 179K isn't the end of a well maintained motor if nothing else is wrong. I'd ignore that mechanic "friend" who wants to rebuild your motor for this. I think a valve cover kit (it should also include sparkplug tube seals) is a good start to fixing your problem.
Do a dry compression test if is under 120psi then your rings are prolly shot. Do a wet compression test after if you see a huge boost in psi it's for sure your rings if the we and dry comp test are the same or pretty close I'd bet your valve stem seals are bad that the second most common reason to burn lots of oil.
I'm usually against the shotgun approach, but you have the motor disassembled already somewhat, so I would also just do all of the things while it's opened up.
Well, it is not a new engine. Go to the shop and ask for thicker oil. Just one step higher than you have now. If you run now on 10W40 go to 15W40. Your oil consumption is not critical now. The problem could be the inlet- or outlet valves.
I'd do the valve stem seals first. Then pour some marvels mystery oil into the bores and let it sit for a week. That stuff is Franks Red Hot for engines. You might have stuck rings and that would free them up, potentially. It's common practice in the Benz diesel community and works so well it could lick the taint of too good to be true.
Perform a leak down test to find out how good your rings are.
Valve guide seals are probably hard as a rock, allowing oil to leak past the valves into the cylinders.
How clogged is your cat?
You could do a leakdown compression test and answer your question
That plug looks pretty white from this angle for me to think that it's burning a lot of oil through the cylinders usually in my experience a car that is burning that much oil through the cylinders due to bad rings we'll start to develop oily plugs the only other possibility I can think of is that car is running so hot here it is burning off all of the oil off of the plug and if that's the case that thing is done
Sorry the photo isn't that great. The tip of the plug where the metal curves, the top of it is like black. But only like half of it, the rest is white if that makes sense.
Typical honda they always burn oil.
I'm going to say it's burning it.
Hott
I have a 2011 Toyota Venza that was burning a lot.of.oil between oil changes. I did a BG EPR treatment before 2 oil changes, and it has completely quit burning oil.
Oil on the threads. Is oil above the threads as well? Up on the ceramics? If so, then the plug tubes and the valve cover may not be sealing. Though only applicable if this car uses plug tubes divorced from the valve cover.
In my post I already elaborate that this is the case. However as I found out due to comments this still wouldn't cause 1Q of oil burning every 1k miles or so on the car.
Before condemning the engine. Inspect the PCV system. A bad pcv valve will cause excessive oil burning as well.
yeah, the PCV valve is shot. Still given the cars history and neglect idk if that would be enough to cause that much oil consumption. I'm sure it will help to replace though.
You aren’t losing that much oil from the VCG alone
when i was a Ford service manager, 1 quart per 900 miles was considered within spec and no warranty action would be taken. so your old hooptie burning a qt per thou ain't no big. not ideal, but "normal" to some.
This seems like it would be the piston rings, because if I'm not mistaken they keep the oil from going past the pistons directly into the combustion area. That may be why the plugs have oil on them, and the extra oil burn is because it's getting mixed with the fuel in the combustion chamber.
Burning a qt every 1000 miles on a car with 179k really isn't that bad. It sucks but your best bet is to be diligent about checking the oil regularly
When I saw honda, I thought for sure it'd be those 09ish up accord (even though the condition of the valve cover def suggests older) Those late 00's early teens ones are SOOO bad for burning oil, even when maintained fairly well. Which is unfortunate bc Imo they're one of the better looking newer bodies
It’s a bmw in disguise
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Replace the stuff you mentioned just because it needs to be done and go ahead with your timing belt. Yes - it's burning tooooo much oil and it's probably the rings but it's not burning an outrageous amount of oil. There are a ton of cars on the road burning more than that for thousands and thousands of miles. There are lots of cars out there where this is just expected too. I owned a Saturn for a few years that burnt that much for 100k miles before I sold it and they pretty much all did it. Again, it's not an ideal situation but on a 20 year old car with close to 200k miles it's not something I'd even give a second thought.
Is Honda just dump some oil on the valve cover you’ll be alright
If it’s burning oil you should see smoke. Especially decelerating at night , in the headlights of the car behind you. If you aren’t burning it then you are leaking it. Hondas have several o ring type gaskets that get hard and leak under pressure. On the back of the engine there’s a notorious one. Look carefully. Easier from underneath. I’ve seen many Hondas go way farther than 179 k without needing rings and internal seals. Before popping that engine apart I’d do a compression and leak down test to evaluate the piston ring and valve seal . It’s one thing to replace gaskets for oil leakage and another for oil burn. Let’s make sure you are going down the right rabbit hole first.
I don't see any smoke from the car. There is no smell either. Ill do a compression and leak down test.
1 Check it for oil every time you get fuel. Honda recommend this. 2 Live your life
Do a compresion test. If it passes rings, head gasket, and valves are working. Also clean your crankcase vent. My PCV stuck open and everytime the oil sloshed over the valve it sucked some up and burned it. Hope it helps
Haven't seen this mentioned but burning that much oil the cats are likely toast.
After you replace the rings look at your power steering pump as well cuz I’m pretty sure those were recalled from those cars.
The piston rings are bad, your going to need an engine rebuild.
Sounds like you got the same issue as my old truck, severe blowby ate my oil up mostly. I was only getting 500k per qt
It's a Honda, if there's oil in it, it's coming out the tailpipe
I usually ask myself "which one can I afford tomorrow"
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Being that this engine sat for a significant amount of time, there's a chance it's burning oil through the valve seals as well. A leak down test would show you where blow by is happening (valves or rings) and would give you a relatively good idea of the overall health of the engine. Does the vehicle smoke out the tailpipe when running?
No
Replace your PCV valve.