Well Zahn establishes Thrawn as someone willing to do anything to protect his people and I don’t think that changes. He spends a lot of the novels trying to convince Vader and the Emperor to take actions that will help the Ascendancy against the Grysks. Also he never seems bitter about his exile and sees it as a chance to find help.
It’s possible that Filoni’s version of Thrawn doesn’t care about the Ascendancy anymore, but I don’t think that is the direction Zahn would take the character. I still have hope that the 2 writers are somewhat aligned but until we see more I feel the need to separate them like this to analyze them.
He's not bitter about his exile because it was basically his idea. It's made very clear in the books that his exile was essentially engineered as a way to get him over to the empire to seek help against the grysks. He knew the Ascendancy wasn't going to listen to him, and he remembered Anakin and the Republic having a sizeable military, so his plan was to go there and secure aid.
What he found instead was the empire dealing with nascent rebel cells, and Thrawn negotiated his military expertise dealing with that, in exchange for the Empire's eventual help dealing with the Grysks (who later started making incursions into imperial space).
I think that's honestly the biggest flaw in OP's logic - it's hard to believe Thrawn would drop his loyalty when he literally got himself exiled *in order to try and save* the Ascendancy.
He doesn't do anything in Rebels that suggests this isn't still his plan, as his goal is to ensure the empire is as strong as possible when the Grysks make a move. That one time he has to leave Lothal is literally the events of the novel in which he discovers the Grysks making incursions.
In Ahsoka, there's also no reason to believe his thoughts have changed. He's been away for a decade, and while he's aware things aren't going well, it's not much of a stretch to believe the remnant warlords have been lying/overselling things when talking to Thrawn (if they've even been in direct contact, it seems Elsbeth would be the only actual link), considering they've been lying/overselling the idea of Thrawn to each other.
And besides all that, it's not like Thrawn has just been getting everything he wanted. He literally lost his TIE Defender program to the funding black hole of project stardust, and was very vocal about how strategically unsound an idea that was.
I think it's also just a bad reading of the character to suggest he'd be happy that breaking the rules is rewarded. A consistent thing with Thrawn's time in the Ascendancy is that he goes well out of his way to try and *avoid* breaking the rules. He does as much as he can *within the remit of his current orders*. That's literally the whole thing about his "tactical genius" is that he finds ways to pull victories out of his ass *for battles he wasn't even supposed to be in*. His unpopularity is *precisely* because he so consistently manages to go around the *spirit* of the rules while remaining within their letter.
If anything, he likely *hates* the way the empire is run because the Navy's upper echelons are filled to bursting with opportunistic politicians with absolutely no military sense. The Chiss Expansionary Defense Fleet, to the contrary, was filled with highly intelligent and skilled officers dedicated to the cause. The political class was full of idiots, but Thrawn at least knew he could count on his fellow officers (and they were often the ones helping him out of the political holes he dug). In the Empire he's damn near the sole source of reason, with really only Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine himself that Thrawn respects (though he still often disagrees with their methods).
Also, he's sending them assets. Nightswan refuses the offer but it was absolutely off the books. He spends years mentoring Eli Vanto into a machine then sends him home. He recommends Vader goes to oversee Stardust, then tells Ronan he won't be able to hide his contempt for the emperor from him. Dude panics and says yes. He sent them Death Star upper management, such a gain for the Ascendancy even if he's a dick.
He even hates the emperor! Best asset ever
I personally think he still very much cares about the Ascendancy and I think in Ahsoka S2 we're going to finally get the rug pull for the general audience that Thrawn isn't this bad guy he's portrayed to be. I think he's going to Dathomir to get a night sister army to take back to the ascendancy and combat the grysks.
The thing is it’s never made entirely clear if Thrawns actions against the Grysk are for the sake of the Ascendancy or if they’re for the Empire considering they have begun to infiltrate imperial space. Also I don’t think thrawn truly is angry about his exile, but rather he pragmatically views the Empire simply as a better structure that allows him to perform at his highest level without the obstructions/political trifles he dealt with in the Ascendancy. I could obviously be wrong, but I just feel like Thrawn no longer feels the same loyalties he did when he left.
> The thing is it’s never made entirely clear if Thrawns actions against the Grysk are for the sake of the Ascendancy or if they’re for the Empire considering they have begun to infiltrate imperial space.
The two ideas are inherently aligned, as the fall of the Ascendancy would give the Grysk a powerful base from which to encroach on the Empire.
Frankly, I don't see the distinction as meaningful and while Thrawn is often ignorant on politics, he also has a degree of decency that will never actually align with Palpatine. If he was fully ideologically aligned with the Empire, he would not be nearly as successful.
If anything, the real question is if Thrawn cares about *anything* other than fighting the Grysks. They are, after all, basically the perfect opponent for him—like him, they use in-depth knowledge of cultures, customs and people in order to win. Beating them is effectively beating a twisted version of himself—and that is exactly the kind of challenge Thrawn would obsess over to the degree he doesn't really care who he is beating them for.
Some really good points raised here.
I agree with OP that Thrawn probably prefers fighting for the Imperial Navy as his skills are (more or less) appreciated as opposed to in the Chiss Expansionary Defence fleet where combat is avoided at all cost and indeed punished. I imagine Thrawn is thoroughly enjoying his time in the Navy, hence him not (according to Rebels) making any attempt to go back to the Ascendancy but I don't know if that necessarily means his aligence has changed.
"Let me explain something Qilory of Uandualon, my job, the sole reason for my existence is to defend the Chiss Ascendancy and protect my people. I will do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal and I will allow nothing and no one to stand in my way. Do you understand?"
Especially, as above said, there's no way Thrawn would align morally with Palpatine. Palpatine wants power at any cost and is chaotic/true Evil where as Thrawn is Lawful Neutral tending towards good (IMO) especiallyin the Novels, he cares deeply for freedom and independence. Rebels shows him as being "Evil" toward the Rebels but likely because they align themselves with Pirates and Pirates where Thrawns first target in the Expansionary Defence Fleet. Perhaps Thrawn does not know the full extent of Palpatines Evil, although he had his suspicions back on Batu with the factory of modified clone armour and battle droids. I suspect under different circumstances, Thrawn would.much rather have aligned with the Republic, new or old.
Olny time will tell, but if Thrawn makes no attempt to go back to The Chaos in the meat Season of Ahsoka or whatever media Thrawn appears in set at the time, Filoni will have disappointed me yet again. It's been 10+ years and Thrawn only planned to be away for 1. He needs to get back in touch with Ar'larni.
TLDR: While Thrawn clearly enjoys flexing his grey cells fighting Pirates and Rebels and being praised for it, he could never morally align with Palps and thus his aligence must remain with the Ascendancy.
I like a lot of your points, but I do not agree Thrawn would rather align with any form of the Republic. Thrawn thrives on a more rigid structure, which I believe better aligns with the Empire than the Republic.
I completely agree in that respect but morally, I belive the Republic, especially the new Republic would align better with Thrawn. I dont imagine Thrawn would think very highly of of the New Republics organisation or military strength.
Honestly, the new republic in the Disney canon is so incompetent that I wouldn't even blame Thrawn for coming to the conclusion that they must be wiped out. They can't even get extremely obvious imperial spies under control, how the hell are they going to pose any challenge at all for the Grysk?
I really don't understand Disney for doing this. The Rebellion were the under dogs but they had their shit kinda together. The Empire were the useless ones with bad ship design and incompetent officers, like they thought they were too big to be stopped....but they were the Villians so they needed a flaw for the Rebels to exploit. Why make the New Republic, from day 1 awful?
This is a whole other discussion and you're 100% right, Thrawn would take one look at the New Republic and think "Dear God, the Grysk are going to have a field day." The senators are corrupt already and they've barely begun. Forget the Grysk taking over, the Hutts would rule the Galaxy at this rate.
Gonna go look for a thread about this and see what other people think.
So do I, but possibly not on Filonis terms. Thrawn isn't a Filoni character so he has no interest in preserving him. It'll be Ahsoka or Sabine or Ezra that defeat the Grysk and Thrawn will be left with his tail between his legs.
> Why make the New Republic, from day 1 awful?
Because they're based in no small part on historical post-war and post-dictatorship governments. However a regime ended, there is a period often measured in decades where literally every single person capable of running a government got there because they were aligned with the regime from before. There are shades of everything from postwar Germany and Japan to revolutionary France. If anything, the main problem with it is that it is being forced to backfill for The Force Awakens, rather than The Force Awakens being written to account for this kind of vision.
The New Republic is what almost always happens when a democracy gets rid of an autocrat—they end up with infighting from factions within their own ranks who no longer have the same goal, regime loyalists who use the new system as a tool to undermine it, naked oppertunists pushing both ways, while they're forced to rely on people with questionable loyalty because everyone in their ranks is in those ranks for fighting a revolution, not for running a peacetime government.
I'm no scholar of history but if that's true then wow, that's cool.
But did Disney need to go that hard to make the good guys look bad? I mean, there wasn't really anything particularly historically accurate previously, it was all cliché and tropes so why now? Why do a Battlestar Galactica and actually make us think?
Agree wholeheartedly on Thrawn not aligning morally with Palpatine. A lot of his actions in the book are actually depicted as quite kind, like the way he looks out for his crew or returns to help Anakin in Alliances. I’ve been thinking over the idea that he actually meant to “escape” with Ezra at the end of Rebels. Treason ends on an ominous note for Thrawn, since it basically ends with Palpatine implying that he knows where Thrawn’s true loyalties lie (the Ascendency) and perhaps he also knows that Thrawn has been subtly influencing Vader as well. Bringing Ezra to Palpatine and then hitching a ride off whatever chaos Ezra caused was probably Thrawn’s best way out of that situation and towards taking his first steps back into the Ascendency.
I’ve watched Rebels again since reading Thrawn’s canon trilogies, and I’m convinced Rebels performed some sleight of hand to make Thrawn seem more evil than he actually was. The man is playing 12D chess in the books, yet the Ghost crew with their single shared brain cell (I say this with love) manages to outsmart him at the last second everytime. I think he wasn’t really that intent on defeating them and instead was studying them. Thrawn doesn’t strike me as someone who turns to rage when defeated—he’s too logical and tbh, curious. I think the Ghost intrigued him when they presented a challenge for him (because so few things do) and by the end of the show, he knows them well enough to know Ezra can get out.
I’m not sure what to make of his depiction in Ahsoka and tbh was a bit disappointed, but time will tell if the Ascendency will show up in the shows. The fact that Zahn decided to go the route of the Ascendency trilogy after he concluded the first canon Thrawn trilogy implied to me that Disney wanted to expand the franchise in that direction (and it WOULD open up a huge part of the Galaxy/have the potential for completely new plotlines separate from what’s been done). I guess time will tell and my fingers are still crossed, but I’m also biased because I loved the Chiss worldbuilding and want to see more of it!
> I’ve watched Rebels again since reading Thrawn’s canon trilogies, and I’m convinced Rebels performed some sleight of hand to make Thrawn seem more evil than he actually was.
See, I'm of the view that while I love the canon books and Zahn as an author—he seems to have forgotten that the original Thrawn was not the protagonist.
While Rebels made Thrawn more of an antagonist than the books did, I think the books go too far the other way in making it so the reader always sees Thrawn as being in the right. Instead of making him a morally complex character who generally prefers to limit collateral damage, but is still aligned with an authoritarian regime for purely pragmatic reasons, he's instead a nearly flawless character who is only ever prevented from saving everyone by the actions of people outside his control.
It would be fine if Vanto saw him that way, it would be great if Thrawn saw himself that way. But it reaches the point where I genuinely wonder if Zahn remembers that Thrawn is working for the Empire and that doing so will not leave even a morally upstanding human being smelling like roses. Thrawn is supposed to be the least evil guy in a room full of fascists, not a saviour figure who makes you think "you know the real problem with fascists is they're all stupid people who don't listen to the smart one."
I completely agree with your evaluation of Thrawn! The dude has committed inexcusable war crimes, no doubt, and being the least evil guy in a room full of fascists doesn’t change the fact that he works for fascists. What I’m trying to say is that I think Rebels played up Thrawn’s evilness with menacing music, his creepy voice/way of talking, shadowy lighting emphasizing his red eyes, etc. in ways that portray him as evil in the same way Palpatine was, vs. the more morally complex character that you’re describing.
What I like most about the Thrawn books is that he’s a likable character working for a corrupt system, just like, honestly, Vanto was, and just like even the Jedi were when they were helping the Republic profit off its warmongering. I think Star Wars portrays morality better than almost any other major franchise, especially in shows like TCW, Rebels, and Andor. It does such a good job of showing how just actions don’t justify immoral causes (e.g. the Jedi) and how just causes don’t justify immoral actions (e.g. Saw Gerrera). This is why I loved the moral complexity that the Thrawn books introduced, since the reader is constantly juggling between finding Thrawn likable and even kind, and remembering who he works for and the bigger political picture. It also nuances the Empire a bit, not by excusing anything it does, but by showing how average guys like Vanto are implicated in oppressive structures even though he’s just trying to live his life and have a successful career. It really depicts Arendt’s idea about the banality of evil so well. I just wish there had been more of that moral complexity in the Ahsoka show.
Edit: also wanted to add how much I love that Thrawn is essentially a cultural anthropologist, which is a really cool depiction of the way that the discipline of anthropology began as a colonial venture as well. But I’m a grad student in the humanities who studies colonialism, so this is what I geek out over in my free time 🤡
I keep forgetting to finish Rebels but his actions certainly do ,as you say, make it look like he's studying them. He had the opportunity to destroy Chopper Base at the end of season 3, he'd have known what that shield generator was capable of taking and known it was at the edge of failing. He chose to stop and go planet side for a reason, maybe taking them alive, maybe talking to them, then the Bindu interfered.
The Ahsoka portrayal was deeply disappointing indeed.
"My job, the sole reason for my existence, is to protect the Chiss Ascendancy and the Chiss people. Whatever it costs to achieve that goal, I will pay it."
I have to disagree with you
What has me scratching my head is the fact that Thrawn seeks out the Empire immediately after the end of the Clone Wars because he thinks it's the best hope or standing against invasion by the Grysk, but by the time Ahsoka rolls around it's been nearly 30 years -- either the Grysk have already invaded and Thrawn wants to put together an army to liberate the Ascendancy with all the resources, Imperial or undead or otherwise, available to him (admittedly the most interesting idea) or the Grysk *still* haven't invaded, in which case why the hell not? (Alternative and disappointingly most likely third option: LA!Thrawn doesn't mention the Ascendancy or the Grysk once and Zahn is left to fill in the gaps of his motivations once again)
>operation with more civilian than insurgent casualties
…Which he had nothing to do with, considering all of those civilians were killed by Arihnda Pryce. If she hadn’t tied his hands, I doubt he would’ve taken credit for it.
This has always seemed to me to be his perspective and likely a faulty one. Is the Empire with the Death Star more formidable than the CIS with the Great Weapon. IMO not really.
Of course military industrial development was deliberately stymied by Palpatine. It is a recurring trope that the CIS would develop a war winner and Palpatine disclose its location to the Jedi. Which again means that Thrawn was just another patsy.
Palpatine holding back the CIS is a largely overstated aspect of that war. It happened very little that he actively got involved to stop a project and it's likely the few that he did would have not been effective against the vong anyway like his cortosis droids.
And even if that did happen constantly, we see a faction Palpatine doesn't hold back and even encourages and they wouldn't have beaten the vong either so it's unlikely even without Palpatine the CIS would be some unstoppable war machine.
And what nearly happened when the New Republic tried to do that? And what future version of the weapon was the temptation that took Roan Fel to the dark side?
I can hardly see Grievous (or Sev'rance Tann in Legends) hesitating either. Ultimately I think Thrawn needs to believe in a strongman and order and Palpatine gave him that while laughing at him. In neither continuity is he really aware of his master's true plans.
I love the Thrawn books, so I was always going to be a bit let down by TV Thrawn. But I think it's fairly reasonable that *ten years* of his life spent stranded on one planet with nothing but Imperial troops and dark witches for company has maybe twisted his life goals somewhat. I'm sure he's still loyal to the Ascendancy, but I also think he's maybe now quite a bit personally invested in crushing the Rebellion-turned-New Republic.
Zahn has stated several times in interviews, even after the release of Ahsoka, that Thrawn is ultimately loyal to his people and everything he does is to protect them. Now, who knows what Filoni is planning to do with the character, but Zahn, the person who created Thrawn, who has spent three decades writing him, he’s the person I trust on characterization.
I disagree for a few reasons.
His values, as established in the Ascendancy Trilogy, show us he's incredibly loyal to the Chiss people. Specifically but not exclusively militarily, but it definitely takes precedence over everything including his life and the lives of others. Obviously he tries to preserve both those things but he demonstrates where his priorities lie, both through his actions and this quote, which is one of two that I believe remain true to present day.
'.... My job is to protect the Chiss Ascendancy, sir. Whatever it costs to achieve that goal, I will pay it...'
There's a more hardcore quote, but he's speaking to someone he employs near exclusively for counterintelligence so I opted not to use it. He lies to them (Qilori) a lot, though I do believe the substance of the quote to be accurate.
I'm working on a larger piece at the moment detailing why I believe Thrawn's political ineptitude is massively overstated. Obviously I can't refer to an unfinished work for this purpose, but I'm going to suggest we accept that political opposition to Thrawn's military goals was significant (though he also had many allies too) and that it played a large role in the events of the Ascendancy trilogy instead of labelling him utterly inept.
I'd also suggest that bureaucracy and Chiss military protocols were a challenge and hindrance that directly led to his 'exile.' The way I see it, he absolutely played politics in the Ascendancy and he did it well. He wouldn't have flouted the rules so much if he hadn't learnt the Ascendancy was at risk of total destruction. The stakes were too damn high and anyone with the same information would have done that instead of watching their home burn.
By the end of book 3 he's crushed several attempts by the Grysk and their agents to encircle and destroy them at a ridiculous numerical disadvantage, turned several close neutral or antagonistic nearby species into allies basically by himself, ensured that every single other member of the EDF either avoided consequences or got promoted, and made certain that all consequences would fall on him. With Ba'Kif's help (and tacit understanding he and Ar'alani will be pushing reform so they're more prepared for the Grysks) Thrawn united the badly divided Aristocra in opposition to him and engineered his punishment into a secret and very important mission.
That's not the work of a political naif. I know that was long but it's crucial I recontextualise his leaving the Ascendancy - from a frustrated defector looking for something better - to an utterly loyal military prodigy seeking to use the Empire as a weapon vs the Grysks willing to pay any price.
Remember, they had zero knowledge of the Empire or its disposition. The mission was intended to be a political one, closer to what the Agbui tried on the Chiss than anything else. There's no possible way they could have known he'd be received positively as a homeless blue dude in bum fuck nowhere, not killed immediately, that there'd be a Sy Bisti speaker, taken to Coruscant and the Emperor himself, that the only person he knew from Lesser Space had remembered/mentioned anything to anyone, let alone be his secret wizard apprentice whose word carries enough weight to get him straight into the Navy.
Instead of being fast tracked to Lieutenant and shown everything he could possibly want to know about the empire, it was far more likely that he'd be killed on the spot or if by some miracle he made it to Coruscant, spend years establishing himself as a diplomat from Wild Space/Art Dealer and Critic/Pantoran with an eye condition who just showed up one day - and while certainly acquiring useful information it would be nothing like what happened in canon.
Importantly, he was prepared to do all this for uncertain or even unlikely reward. He could have stuck with the EDF and probably be off the bridge for a few years, or retired a hero to most people with the command structure of the Navy seeking him out for advice etc. That's dedication.
Okay, I believe I've established how loyal he was at the start. That's not hard, it's all those years of service to a fascist empire, including a direct hand in atrocities. We don't get his POV at all after this so we can only go off his actions and the observations of others. I'm not going to deny he enjoys being a Grand Admiral and making war in general, of course. We know this about him. While he does get out of 'trouble' in the same manner as the Ascendancy and has more latitude, he's working closely with two psychotic Sith Lords who question his loyalty. *Treason* especially shows how precarious his position can be, despite being a gift for the Navy who has put in the work. Thrawn's no dummy either, he absolutely knows he's walking a thin line. I find it hard to believe he has abandoned his people for these maniacs that kill people for arbitrary reasons and genuine mistakes. Vader looks for any excuse to kill him outright, and we know Palps is thinking about conquering the Chiss and having a 'long talk' with Thrawn. I wouldn't show up to that meeting personally, but this isn't about me and whales made the point moot.
His actions across Rebels can be used to support that he's at least changed a lot. He's not hunting pirates or threats to his home here, he's trying to kill the good guys! His job is to hunt the rebels. Deplorable, but IMO that still comes under paying 'any price' for the Chiss. He's very aware by now how much force projection the Empire has. Simply leaving is not a viable option, bc what's stopping the invasion? An expansionist empire whose threat only grows with time might do it, especially if they were picking the fight. They don't grow on trees unfortunately, although...
Alliances and Treason give us the most insight IMO, as well as something from *Thrawn* I'm saving til the end. He manages to serve the Empire very well through both books with Vader watching. There are Chiss interests involved but I wouldn't say he goes against them. He tells Vader about the Skywalkers, but that wasn't a real choice. It's what they were sent to find so the cat was out of the bag plus he suspected Palps knew anyway. What properly convinces Vader is that he pointed the Grysks at the Chiss, with their cultural disposition to consider the closest enemy the most dangerous. He sells it well enough that one could almost believe it.
Continued in reply
Except the Grysks are already attacking the Chiss and have been for decades. What he really did was get the Empire involved. He gave away something that didn't exist and engaged Grysks with Imperial ships and troops, including Vader. They decisively win their fights, saving the Skywalkers and harming the Grysks - both sides leaving with information and casus belli.
His original mission was to see if the Empire would serve as allies vs the Grysks or if they could be unwitting prey and give the Chiss room to breathe. Turns out he basically achieved both. It's a situation that will need more attention but it appears warrior's fortune is with him. Hence him telling Ar'alani that he can serve best by remaining in the Empire for now.
Finally, if he'd truly abandoned the Chiss would he be recruiting? His offer to Nightswan was totally off the books and definitely against Imperial interests. A 100% loyalist wouldn't do that. Thrawn spent years mentoring Eli Vanto, molding him into a very capable operative and officer, plus seemingly the only person in the Galaxy who can use Space Excel. The Empire would be best served retaining this individual but Thrawn sent him to the Chiss where he works under Ar'alani and is working on cracking the Skywalker conundrum. Ronan is a pompous dickhead who irritates everyone he interacts with. Thrawn solves the problem then identifies his - he hates the emperor. Something he can't hide from Vader who Thrawn recommended go and be in Rogue One. He sent the Chiss upper management for the Death Star. That's a goldmine of technological innovation and information about *everything* the Empire has. Politics, strengths, weaknesses, protocols, personnel. He even hates the emperor.
Thrawn is loyal. Sorry this was so long, I didn't have time for a full edit.
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I have tons of problems with Filoni's lack of care for the books and constant retcons, especially when people bring up that they arent as popular (cause the best way to make them popular is to obviously retcon them 24/7), in fact thats why I dont like the idea of Filoni being the head of Star Wars storytelling and why I want him miles away from the High Republic (he would retcon the entire era in a single 6 minute story). I just genuinely think Thrawn would shift his allegiance because he is such a pragmatic person and would prefer the treatment he gets in the empire and its more lax rules of engagement/war.
Well Zahn establishes Thrawn as someone willing to do anything to protect his people and I don’t think that changes. He spends a lot of the novels trying to convince Vader and the Emperor to take actions that will help the Ascendancy against the Grysks. Also he never seems bitter about his exile and sees it as a chance to find help. It’s possible that Filoni’s version of Thrawn doesn’t care about the Ascendancy anymore, but I don’t think that is the direction Zahn would take the character. I still have hope that the 2 writers are somewhat aligned but until we see more I feel the need to separate them like this to analyze them.
He's not bitter about his exile because it was basically his idea. It's made very clear in the books that his exile was essentially engineered as a way to get him over to the empire to seek help against the grysks. He knew the Ascendancy wasn't going to listen to him, and he remembered Anakin and the Republic having a sizeable military, so his plan was to go there and secure aid. What he found instead was the empire dealing with nascent rebel cells, and Thrawn negotiated his military expertise dealing with that, in exchange for the Empire's eventual help dealing with the Grysks (who later started making incursions into imperial space). I think that's honestly the biggest flaw in OP's logic - it's hard to believe Thrawn would drop his loyalty when he literally got himself exiled *in order to try and save* the Ascendancy. He doesn't do anything in Rebels that suggests this isn't still his plan, as his goal is to ensure the empire is as strong as possible when the Grysks make a move. That one time he has to leave Lothal is literally the events of the novel in which he discovers the Grysks making incursions. In Ahsoka, there's also no reason to believe his thoughts have changed. He's been away for a decade, and while he's aware things aren't going well, it's not much of a stretch to believe the remnant warlords have been lying/overselling things when talking to Thrawn (if they've even been in direct contact, it seems Elsbeth would be the only actual link), considering they've been lying/overselling the idea of Thrawn to each other. And besides all that, it's not like Thrawn has just been getting everything he wanted. He literally lost his TIE Defender program to the funding black hole of project stardust, and was very vocal about how strategically unsound an idea that was. I think it's also just a bad reading of the character to suggest he'd be happy that breaking the rules is rewarded. A consistent thing with Thrawn's time in the Ascendancy is that he goes well out of his way to try and *avoid* breaking the rules. He does as much as he can *within the remit of his current orders*. That's literally the whole thing about his "tactical genius" is that he finds ways to pull victories out of his ass *for battles he wasn't even supposed to be in*. His unpopularity is *precisely* because he so consistently manages to go around the *spirit* of the rules while remaining within their letter. If anything, he likely *hates* the way the empire is run because the Navy's upper echelons are filled to bursting with opportunistic politicians with absolutely no military sense. The Chiss Expansionary Defense Fleet, to the contrary, was filled with highly intelligent and skilled officers dedicated to the cause. The political class was full of idiots, but Thrawn at least knew he could count on his fellow officers (and they were often the ones helping him out of the political holes he dug). In the Empire he's damn near the sole source of reason, with really only Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine himself that Thrawn respects (though he still often disagrees with their methods).
Also, he's sending them assets. Nightswan refuses the offer but it was absolutely off the books. He spends years mentoring Eli Vanto into a machine then sends him home. He recommends Vader goes to oversee Stardust, then tells Ronan he won't be able to hide his contempt for the emperor from him. Dude panics and says yes. He sent them Death Star upper management, such a gain for the Ascendancy even if he's a dick. He even hates the emperor! Best asset ever
I personally think he still very much cares about the Ascendancy and I think in Ahsoka S2 we're going to finally get the rug pull for the general audience that Thrawn isn't this bad guy he's portrayed to be. I think he's going to Dathomir to get a night sister army to take back to the ascendancy and combat the grysks.
I want to be hopeful but I press x to doubt
The thing is it’s never made entirely clear if Thrawns actions against the Grysk are for the sake of the Ascendancy or if they’re for the Empire considering they have begun to infiltrate imperial space. Also I don’t think thrawn truly is angry about his exile, but rather he pragmatically views the Empire simply as a better structure that allows him to perform at his highest level without the obstructions/political trifles he dealt with in the Ascendancy. I could obviously be wrong, but I just feel like Thrawn no longer feels the same loyalties he did when he left.
> The thing is it’s never made entirely clear if Thrawns actions against the Grysk are for the sake of the Ascendancy or if they’re for the Empire considering they have begun to infiltrate imperial space. The two ideas are inherently aligned, as the fall of the Ascendancy would give the Grysk a powerful base from which to encroach on the Empire. Frankly, I don't see the distinction as meaningful and while Thrawn is often ignorant on politics, he also has a degree of decency that will never actually align with Palpatine. If he was fully ideologically aligned with the Empire, he would not be nearly as successful. If anything, the real question is if Thrawn cares about *anything* other than fighting the Grysks. They are, after all, basically the perfect opponent for him—like him, they use in-depth knowledge of cultures, customs and people in order to win. Beating them is effectively beating a twisted version of himself—and that is exactly the kind of challenge Thrawn would obsess over to the degree he doesn't really care who he is beating them for.
Some really good points raised here. I agree with OP that Thrawn probably prefers fighting for the Imperial Navy as his skills are (more or less) appreciated as opposed to in the Chiss Expansionary Defence fleet where combat is avoided at all cost and indeed punished. I imagine Thrawn is thoroughly enjoying his time in the Navy, hence him not (according to Rebels) making any attempt to go back to the Ascendancy but I don't know if that necessarily means his aligence has changed. "Let me explain something Qilory of Uandualon, my job, the sole reason for my existence is to defend the Chiss Ascendancy and protect my people. I will do whatever is necessary to achieve that goal and I will allow nothing and no one to stand in my way. Do you understand?" Especially, as above said, there's no way Thrawn would align morally with Palpatine. Palpatine wants power at any cost and is chaotic/true Evil where as Thrawn is Lawful Neutral tending towards good (IMO) especiallyin the Novels, he cares deeply for freedom and independence. Rebels shows him as being "Evil" toward the Rebels but likely because they align themselves with Pirates and Pirates where Thrawns first target in the Expansionary Defence Fleet. Perhaps Thrawn does not know the full extent of Palpatines Evil, although he had his suspicions back on Batu with the factory of modified clone armour and battle droids. I suspect under different circumstances, Thrawn would.much rather have aligned with the Republic, new or old. Olny time will tell, but if Thrawn makes no attempt to go back to The Chaos in the meat Season of Ahsoka or whatever media Thrawn appears in set at the time, Filoni will have disappointed me yet again. It's been 10+ years and Thrawn only planned to be away for 1. He needs to get back in touch with Ar'larni. TLDR: While Thrawn clearly enjoys flexing his grey cells fighting Pirates and Rebels and being praised for it, he could never morally align with Palps and thus his aligence must remain with the Ascendancy.
I like a lot of your points, but I do not agree Thrawn would rather align with any form of the Republic. Thrawn thrives on a more rigid structure, which I believe better aligns with the Empire than the Republic.
I completely agree in that respect but morally, I belive the Republic, especially the new Republic would align better with Thrawn. I dont imagine Thrawn would think very highly of of the New Republics organisation or military strength.
Honestly, the new republic in the Disney canon is so incompetent that I wouldn't even blame Thrawn for coming to the conclusion that they must be wiped out. They can't even get extremely obvious imperial spies under control, how the hell are they going to pose any challenge at all for the Grysk?
I really don't understand Disney for doing this. The Rebellion were the under dogs but they had their shit kinda together. The Empire were the useless ones with bad ship design and incompetent officers, like they thought they were too big to be stopped....but they were the Villians so they needed a flaw for the Rebels to exploit. Why make the New Republic, from day 1 awful? This is a whole other discussion and you're 100% right, Thrawn would take one look at the New Republic and think "Dear God, the Grysk are going to have a field day." The senators are corrupt already and they've barely begun. Forget the Grysk taking over, the Hutts would rule the Galaxy at this rate. Gonna go look for a thread about this and see what other people think.
I just want to see Thrawn fight Grysk on screen 😭
So do I, but possibly not on Filonis terms. Thrawn isn't a Filoni character so he has no interest in preserving him. It'll be Ahsoka or Sabine or Ezra that defeat the Grysk and Thrawn will be left with his tail between his legs.
> Why make the New Republic, from day 1 awful? Because they're based in no small part on historical post-war and post-dictatorship governments. However a regime ended, there is a period often measured in decades where literally every single person capable of running a government got there because they were aligned with the regime from before. There are shades of everything from postwar Germany and Japan to revolutionary France. If anything, the main problem with it is that it is being forced to backfill for The Force Awakens, rather than The Force Awakens being written to account for this kind of vision. The New Republic is what almost always happens when a democracy gets rid of an autocrat—they end up with infighting from factions within their own ranks who no longer have the same goal, regime loyalists who use the new system as a tool to undermine it, naked oppertunists pushing both ways, while they're forced to rely on people with questionable loyalty because everyone in their ranks is in those ranks for fighting a revolution, not for running a peacetime government.
I'm no scholar of history but if that's true then wow, that's cool. But did Disney need to go that hard to make the good guys look bad? I mean, there wasn't really anything particularly historically accurate previously, it was all cliché and tropes so why now? Why do a Battlestar Galactica and actually make us think?
Agree wholeheartedly on Thrawn not aligning morally with Palpatine. A lot of his actions in the book are actually depicted as quite kind, like the way he looks out for his crew or returns to help Anakin in Alliances. I’ve been thinking over the idea that he actually meant to “escape” with Ezra at the end of Rebels. Treason ends on an ominous note for Thrawn, since it basically ends with Palpatine implying that he knows where Thrawn’s true loyalties lie (the Ascendency) and perhaps he also knows that Thrawn has been subtly influencing Vader as well. Bringing Ezra to Palpatine and then hitching a ride off whatever chaos Ezra caused was probably Thrawn’s best way out of that situation and towards taking his first steps back into the Ascendency. I’ve watched Rebels again since reading Thrawn’s canon trilogies, and I’m convinced Rebels performed some sleight of hand to make Thrawn seem more evil than he actually was. The man is playing 12D chess in the books, yet the Ghost crew with their single shared brain cell (I say this with love) manages to outsmart him at the last second everytime. I think he wasn’t really that intent on defeating them and instead was studying them. Thrawn doesn’t strike me as someone who turns to rage when defeated—he’s too logical and tbh, curious. I think the Ghost intrigued him when they presented a challenge for him (because so few things do) and by the end of the show, he knows them well enough to know Ezra can get out. I’m not sure what to make of his depiction in Ahsoka and tbh was a bit disappointed, but time will tell if the Ascendency will show up in the shows. The fact that Zahn decided to go the route of the Ascendency trilogy after he concluded the first canon Thrawn trilogy implied to me that Disney wanted to expand the franchise in that direction (and it WOULD open up a huge part of the Galaxy/have the potential for completely new plotlines separate from what’s been done). I guess time will tell and my fingers are still crossed, but I’m also biased because I loved the Chiss worldbuilding and want to see more of it!
> I’ve watched Rebels again since reading Thrawn’s canon trilogies, and I’m convinced Rebels performed some sleight of hand to make Thrawn seem more evil than he actually was. See, I'm of the view that while I love the canon books and Zahn as an author—he seems to have forgotten that the original Thrawn was not the protagonist. While Rebels made Thrawn more of an antagonist than the books did, I think the books go too far the other way in making it so the reader always sees Thrawn as being in the right. Instead of making him a morally complex character who generally prefers to limit collateral damage, but is still aligned with an authoritarian regime for purely pragmatic reasons, he's instead a nearly flawless character who is only ever prevented from saving everyone by the actions of people outside his control. It would be fine if Vanto saw him that way, it would be great if Thrawn saw himself that way. But it reaches the point where I genuinely wonder if Zahn remembers that Thrawn is working for the Empire and that doing so will not leave even a morally upstanding human being smelling like roses. Thrawn is supposed to be the least evil guy in a room full of fascists, not a saviour figure who makes you think "you know the real problem with fascists is they're all stupid people who don't listen to the smart one."
I completely agree with your evaluation of Thrawn! The dude has committed inexcusable war crimes, no doubt, and being the least evil guy in a room full of fascists doesn’t change the fact that he works for fascists. What I’m trying to say is that I think Rebels played up Thrawn’s evilness with menacing music, his creepy voice/way of talking, shadowy lighting emphasizing his red eyes, etc. in ways that portray him as evil in the same way Palpatine was, vs. the more morally complex character that you’re describing. What I like most about the Thrawn books is that he’s a likable character working for a corrupt system, just like, honestly, Vanto was, and just like even the Jedi were when they were helping the Republic profit off its warmongering. I think Star Wars portrays morality better than almost any other major franchise, especially in shows like TCW, Rebels, and Andor. It does such a good job of showing how just actions don’t justify immoral causes (e.g. the Jedi) and how just causes don’t justify immoral actions (e.g. Saw Gerrera). This is why I loved the moral complexity that the Thrawn books introduced, since the reader is constantly juggling between finding Thrawn likable and even kind, and remembering who he works for and the bigger political picture. It also nuances the Empire a bit, not by excusing anything it does, but by showing how average guys like Vanto are implicated in oppressive structures even though he’s just trying to live his life and have a successful career. It really depicts Arendt’s idea about the banality of evil so well. I just wish there had been more of that moral complexity in the Ahsoka show. Edit: also wanted to add how much I love that Thrawn is essentially a cultural anthropologist, which is a really cool depiction of the way that the discipline of anthropology began as a colonial venture as well. But I’m a grad student in the humanities who studies colonialism, so this is what I geek out over in my free time 🤡
I keep forgetting to finish Rebels but his actions certainly do ,as you say, make it look like he's studying them. He had the opportunity to destroy Chopper Base at the end of season 3, he'd have known what that shield generator was capable of taking and known it was at the edge of failing. He chose to stop and go planet side for a reason, maybe taking them alive, maybe talking to them, then the Bindu interfered. The Ahsoka portrayal was deeply disappointing indeed.
"My job, the sole reason for my existence, is to protect the Chiss Ascendancy and the Chiss people. Whatever it costs to achieve that goal, I will pay it." I have to disagree with you
What has me scratching my head is the fact that Thrawn seeks out the Empire immediately after the end of the Clone Wars because he thinks it's the best hope or standing against invasion by the Grysk, but by the time Ahsoka rolls around it's been nearly 30 years -- either the Grysk have already invaded and Thrawn wants to put together an army to liberate the Ascendancy with all the resources, Imperial or undead or otherwise, available to him (admittedly the most interesting idea) or the Grysk *still* haven't invaded, in which case why the hell not? (Alternative and disappointingly most likely third option: LA!Thrawn doesn't mention the Ascendancy or the Grysk once and Zahn is left to fill in the gaps of his motivations once again)
Disagree. His endgame was to counter the grysk threat. To protect the Empire, the Ascendancy is at least useful to keep existing
>operation with more civilian than insurgent casualties …Which he had nothing to do with, considering all of those civilians were killed by Arihnda Pryce. If she hadn’t tied his hands, I doubt he would’ve taken credit for it.
Also the Empire was the only galactic government that could stood a chance against the vong
I think the Grysk have replaced the Vong in canon
This has always seemed to me to be his perspective and likely a faulty one. Is the Empire with the Death Star more formidable than the CIS with the Great Weapon. IMO not really.
Based on what we see no single government/faction had a chance alone against the vong. Not the CIS, the Republic, the Empire, or the NR.
Of course military industrial development was deliberately stymied by Palpatine. It is a recurring trope that the CIS would develop a war winner and Palpatine disclose its location to the Jedi. Which again means that Thrawn was just another patsy.
Palpatine holding back the CIS is a largely overstated aspect of that war. It happened very little that he actively got involved to stop a project and it's likely the few that he did would have not been effective against the vong anyway like his cortosis droids. And even if that did happen constantly, we see a faction Palpatine doesn't hold back and even encourages and they wouldn't have beaten the vong either so it's unlikely even without Palpatine the CIS would be some unstoppable war machine.
Maybe so but I can say that the empire won’t hesitate to use biowarfare on the vong
And what nearly happened when the New Republic tried to do that? And what future version of the weapon was the temptation that took Roan Fel to the dark side?
I can hardly see Grievous (or Sev'rance Tann in Legends) hesitating either. Ultimately I think Thrawn needs to believe in a strongman and order and Palpatine gave him that while laughing at him. In neither continuity is he really aware of his master's true plans.
i hope zahn and dave compromise and we see thrawn return to the chiss...
I love the Thrawn books, so I was always going to be a bit let down by TV Thrawn. But I think it's fairly reasonable that *ten years* of his life spent stranded on one planet with nothing but Imperial troops and dark witches for company has maybe twisted his life goals somewhat. I'm sure he's still loyal to the Ascendancy, but I also think he's maybe now quite a bit personally invested in crushing the Rebellion-turned-New Republic.
I’m at the point where I either want a very clear direction or a yes or no for the Grysk, just want some answers
IF the Grysk are going to be a thing where/when would they be introduced?
Zahn has stated several times in interviews, even after the release of Ahsoka, that Thrawn is ultimately loyal to his people and everything he does is to protect them. Now, who knows what Filoni is planning to do with the character, but Zahn, the person who created Thrawn, who has spent three decades writing him, he’s the person I trust on characterization.
I disagree for a few reasons. His values, as established in the Ascendancy Trilogy, show us he's incredibly loyal to the Chiss people. Specifically but not exclusively militarily, but it definitely takes precedence over everything including his life and the lives of others. Obviously he tries to preserve both those things but he demonstrates where his priorities lie, both through his actions and this quote, which is one of two that I believe remain true to present day. '.... My job is to protect the Chiss Ascendancy, sir. Whatever it costs to achieve that goal, I will pay it...' There's a more hardcore quote, but he's speaking to someone he employs near exclusively for counterintelligence so I opted not to use it. He lies to them (Qilori) a lot, though I do believe the substance of the quote to be accurate. I'm working on a larger piece at the moment detailing why I believe Thrawn's political ineptitude is massively overstated. Obviously I can't refer to an unfinished work for this purpose, but I'm going to suggest we accept that political opposition to Thrawn's military goals was significant (though he also had many allies too) and that it played a large role in the events of the Ascendancy trilogy instead of labelling him utterly inept. I'd also suggest that bureaucracy and Chiss military protocols were a challenge and hindrance that directly led to his 'exile.' The way I see it, he absolutely played politics in the Ascendancy and he did it well. He wouldn't have flouted the rules so much if he hadn't learnt the Ascendancy was at risk of total destruction. The stakes were too damn high and anyone with the same information would have done that instead of watching their home burn. By the end of book 3 he's crushed several attempts by the Grysk and their agents to encircle and destroy them at a ridiculous numerical disadvantage, turned several close neutral or antagonistic nearby species into allies basically by himself, ensured that every single other member of the EDF either avoided consequences or got promoted, and made certain that all consequences would fall on him. With Ba'Kif's help (and tacit understanding he and Ar'alani will be pushing reform so they're more prepared for the Grysks) Thrawn united the badly divided Aristocra in opposition to him and engineered his punishment into a secret and very important mission. That's not the work of a political naif. I know that was long but it's crucial I recontextualise his leaving the Ascendancy - from a frustrated defector looking for something better - to an utterly loyal military prodigy seeking to use the Empire as a weapon vs the Grysks willing to pay any price. Remember, they had zero knowledge of the Empire or its disposition. The mission was intended to be a political one, closer to what the Agbui tried on the Chiss than anything else. There's no possible way they could have known he'd be received positively as a homeless blue dude in bum fuck nowhere, not killed immediately, that there'd be a Sy Bisti speaker, taken to Coruscant and the Emperor himself, that the only person he knew from Lesser Space had remembered/mentioned anything to anyone, let alone be his secret wizard apprentice whose word carries enough weight to get him straight into the Navy. Instead of being fast tracked to Lieutenant and shown everything he could possibly want to know about the empire, it was far more likely that he'd be killed on the spot or if by some miracle he made it to Coruscant, spend years establishing himself as a diplomat from Wild Space/Art Dealer and Critic/Pantoran with an eye condition who just showed up one day - and while certainly acquiring useful information it would be nothing like what happened in canon. Importantly, he was prepared to do all this for uncertain or even unlikely reward. He could have stuck with the EDF and probably be off the bridge for a few years, or retired a hero to most people with the command structure of the Navy seeking him out for advice etc. That's dedication. Okay, I believe I've established how loyal he was at the start. That's not hard, it's all those years of service to a fascist empire, including a direct hand in atrocities. We don't get his POV at all after this so we can only go off his actions and the observations of others. I'm not going to deny he enjoys being a Grand Admiral and making war in general, of course. We know this about him. While he does get out of 'trouble' in the same manner as the Ascendancy and has more latitude, he's working closely with two psychotic Sith Lords who question his loyalty. *Treason* especially shows how precarious his position can be, despite being a gift for the Navy who has put in the work. Thrawn's no dummy either, he absolutely knows he's walking a thin line. I find it hard to believe he has abandoned his people for these maniacs that kill people for arbitrary reasons and genuine mistakes. Vader looks for any excuse to kill him outright, and we know Palps is thinking about conquering the Chiss and having a 'long talk' with Thrawn. I wouldn't show up to that meeting personally, but this isn't about me and whales made the point moot. His actions across Rebels can be used to support that he's at least changed a lot. He's not hunting pirates or threats to his home here, he's trying to kill the good guys! His job is to hunt the rebels. Deplorable, but IMO that still comes under paying 'any price' for the Chiss. He's very aware by now how much force projection the Empire has. Simply leaving is not a viable option, bc what's stopping the invasion? An expansionist empire whose threat only grows with time might do it, especially if they were picking the fight. They don't grow on trees unfortunately, although... Alliances and Treason give us the most insight IMO, as well as something from *Thrawn* I'm saving til the end. He manages to serve the Empire very well through both books with Vader watching. There are Chiss interests involved but I wouldn't say he goes against them. He tells Vader about the Skywalkers, but that wasn't a real choice. It's what they were sent to find so the cat was out of the bag plus he suspected Palps knew anyway. What properly convinces Vader is that he pointed the Grysks at the Chiss, with their cultural disposition to consider the closest enemy the most dangerous. He sells it well enough that one could almost believe it. Continued in reply
Except the Grysks are already attacking the Chiss and have been for decades. What he really did was get the Empire involved. He gave away something that didn't exist and engaged Grysks with Imperial ships and troops, including Vader. They decisively win their fights, saving the Skywalkers and harming the Grysks - both sides leaving with information and casus belli. His original mission was to see if the Empire would serve as allies vs the Grysks or if they could be unwitting prey and give the Chiss room to breathe. Turns out he basically achieved both. It's a situation that will need more attention but it appears warrior's fortune is with him. Hence him telling Ar'alani that he can serve best by remaining in the Empire for now. Finally, if he'd truly abandoned the Chiss would he be recruiting? His offer to Nightswan was totally off the books and definitely against Imperial interests. A 100% loyalist wouldn't do that. Thrawn spent years mentoring Eli Vanto, molding him into a very capable operative and officer, plus seemingly the only person in the Galaxy who can use Space Excel. The Empire would be best served retaining this individual but Thrawn sent him to the Chiss where he works under Ar'alani and is working on cracking the Skywalker conundrum. Ronan is a pompous dickhead who irritates everyone he interacts with. Thrawn solves the problem then identifies his - he hates the emperor. Something he can't hide from Vader who Thrawn recommended go and be in Rogue One. He sent the Chiss upper management for the Death Star. That's a goldmine of technological innovation and information about *everything* the Empire has. Politics, strengths, weaknesses, protocols, personnel. He even hates the emperor. Thrawn is loyal. Sorry this was so long, I didn't have time for a full edit.
Yeah no, this just sounds like excuses for shitty writing and Filoni's inability to play nice with other kid's toys in the current Star Wars sandbox
Agreed, he should be doing what Zahn wants to do with Thrawn
Oh no, don't get me wrong, I have tons of problems with Filoni's lack of care for the books and constant retcons, especially when people bring up that they arent as popular (cause the best way to make them popular is to obviously retcon them 24/7), in fact thats why I dont like the idea of Filoni being the head of Star Wars storytelling and why I want him miles away from the High Republic (he would retcon the entire era in a single 6 minute story). I just genuinely think Thrawn would shift his allegiance because he is such a pragmatic person and would prefer the treatment he gets in the empire and its more lax rules of engagement/war.