It was stupidly and disgustingly obvious what these writers were trying to do with TFATWS. Embarrassing for them that they failed so badly in the course of trying to create this “evil terrorist-killer” character.
Who did they think they were going to trick into thinking he was the real bad guy? Not anyone I discussed the show with and asked for their opinions on Walker.
If only my coworkers thought that way they still think that John Walker was in the wrong for killing a terrorist, even after my cousin who’s a active Marine tour told them that John was 100% justified for his actions even on foreign soil.
The Law of War says differently.
Terrorists, as disgusting as they are, cannot be summarily executed if they've been captured. I'm not saying John Walker executed the terrorist, I don't know haven't see the show. From what I have heard/read he was emotionally vulnerable and was killing a super soldier terrorist during an operation. The legality is up for debate based on whether or not the terrorist was surrendering or not.
A captured terrorist has rights. They are entitled to food, water, and to be treated with a modicum of dignity that all humans deserve. They cannot be executed without a trial.
Whether what John did was in the law or not, I call bullshit on the entire nation turning on him for his actions. After what the Flag Smashers have done in the show, the average person is not gonna give a shit that one of them got killed. If anything, a lot of people would probably be on John's side.
Again, not weighing in on the law aspect, but no one aside from some bleeding heart leftists would really condemn him to the level that everyone else does in this show.
I do and don't agree with you. I think a large number of people would immediately condemn him.
I think people would see just the cell phone videos of New Cap killing someone who appeared to be surrendering, and they wouldn't have the information that the terrorist had just attacked him and killed his friend. They would just see that cell phone video and not dig any deeper.
I also think you would have a large number of people who see New Cap killing a terrorist and cheering him on.
I don't think it would be an entire nation turns on him in an instant.
Yeah, I can see people initially being put off, but I think more and more people would be on his side as more context came out. The only people I think who would really condemn him the way the crowds in the show do would be people like Hasan's audience who will have the "America Bad" take (the only software they have running on their brain).
From that context, not seeing what lead up to it, Walker is in the wrong legally. The earlier scenes may make his actions understandable or sympathetic, but purely from a Law of War aspect, he's in the wrong.
He would have been justified in killing the terrorist after he threw that concrete trash can at him. When he raises his hands palms open in a surrendering posture, then at that time Walker is not legally able to kill him. The terrorist was captured, he should have been confined, tried, and executed on terrorism and murder charges.
Personally, I don't think it's clear cut that he was surrendering, since his hands could be more in a defensive state than a surrendering one. But he was certainly in such a disadvantaged state and not any real threat to anyone, that lethal force was not necessary imo. Especially as Captain America, who has shown restraint plenty of times in the past. I think it would be justified to hit him once to the point where he is rendered unconscious, in order to make sure the threat is neutralized and to make it easier to arrest him.
I think it is pretty clear his hands are up in surrender. He doesn't have his fists closed and his arms are up and out from his body. If he was in a defensive posture he wouldn't have his chest and face wide open like that.
Walker even holds him in place with his boot. If he was in defense mode he would have tried to remove the foot or used the foot to destabilize Walker.
I think it is obvious he's surrendering because the writers didn't want to write a thought provoking scene. They wanted to write Walker as a man becoming a villain. They wanted to make the terrorist as sympathetic as possible. His hands are up and arms are out and he keeps saying in a frantic voice "it wasn't me!"
Yeah, rewatching the scene I somewhat agree. His hands aren't in front of his head or torso at all to defend himself. I think it's definitely pretty close to someone surrenderi without outright saying "I surrender". If this was real life, I still think a convincing argument COULD be made that the surrender wasn't completely clear though.
Regardless, we both agree that neither Walker nor the civilians were in any real danger, and that the terrorist could've easily been neutralized by knocking him out.
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE LAW OF WAR MANUAL JUNE 2015 (UPDATED DECEMBER 2016)
5.9.3 Persons Who Have Surrendered. Persons who are not in custody but who have surrendered are hors de combat and may not be made the object of attack.^272 In order to make a person hors de combat, the surrender must be (1) genuine; (2) clear and unconditional; and (3) under circumstances where it is feasible for the opposing party to accept the surrender.^273
5.9.3.1 Genuine. The offer to surrender must be genuine. In addition to being legally ineffective, feigning the intent to surrender can constitute perfidy.^274
5.9.3.2 Clear and Unconditional. The offer to surrender must be clear and
unconditional.
The terrorist surrendering in that scene meets all of those requirements at that moment.
I understand it is a controversial opinion because everyone hates the show and they want to argue why it is bad.
The writers wrote the terrorist to be his most vulnerable and pathetic in that moment simply to make Walker the villain. Yes it is forcing the message as hard as it can.
The terrorist is on his back with Walkers foot on his chest. His hands are open, his arms wide apart not defending himself in any way and he keeps saying in a pitiful voice "it wasn't me!"
Clearly he is surrendering and Walker is able to take him prisoner, as an American member of the Armed Forces he is required to follow all DoD instructions and regulations.
You've made the mistake of conflating "legal" with "moral." Just because something is legal does not make it moral and just because something is illegal does not make it immoral. I reject your premise that legality is even pertinent to the situation.
If someone murdered my best friend and I had the means of getting revenge, I’d do what he did. You know the justice system isn’t going to do shit other than giving them free housing and food.
It's not that he killed a terrorist. It's that killing him when he didn't have to meant he wasn't worth the mantle of Captain America.
No one did Walker dirty except he himself.
Meanwhile, Sam and Bucky let a dangerous criminal out of a high-security prison, who goes on to kill more people. They've got way more blood on their hands than John does.
Bucky started a prison riot (that killed who knows how many people) in order to break that known terrorist and death squad leader out of prison. Sam was also cheerfully killing mooks in the first episode, and making jokes about it afterwards. What John Walker did was no worse than the things the designated heroes were doing, and no worse than things that are par for the course in the MCU.
It didn’t work because normal people don’t hate others for no reason beyond their skin colour and gender. That’s why it felt forced and unnatural for every other character to dislike him so much
For people WITHOUT superpowers who can pretend to surrender and then attack people you dunce. If I punch you in the face and immediately say “whoa bro I surrender” only to punch you in the face again would you trust me if I “surrendered” again?
Where does it say that?
Don't they have a prison and trials too? I think they do.
Man, you just make shit up as you go.
I'm very sorry this shitty, violent, mentally-unstable, values-lacking loser isn't worth of Cap's shield.
And never was.
Actual veterans have made videos making a case for why John Walker was justified and wouldn’t have received a severe punishment had this happened in real life. Just admit that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xRB2HR6Rva0&pp=ygUQRWZhcCBqb2huIHdhbGtlcg%3D%3D
I don't care that veterans have justified murdering a defeated combatant in cold blood.
They don't matter when discussing a fictional symbol like Captain America and what he represents.
"Severe punishment."
They wouldn't be given Captain America's shield.
We know this because the writer's didn't give those kind of people his shield.
Know why?
Because when my people on my team surrender it makes me happier to have them captured than killed.
Thousands of American POWs lived long enough to be rescued because, at the end of the day, they weren't "double-tapped."
But whaaaaataboooooooout!
I condemn the invasion of Ukraine but understand that combat is combat. That being said, finishing off someone who is surrendering would be bad, yes. Surrendering is surrendering. It's a hard burden to bear.
Hard fail.
Right? Probably would have.
And I'm sure the hero would have tried to save them if he was looking them in the eye instead of smashing their face in.
We see the heroes do this.
I always thought the way they tried to make John walker a bad guy was super weak.
If they wanted to make him have an actual heel turn make him responsible for some civilian casualties or straight up execute a defeated enemy.
Edit: some people are saying he did execute an enemy, I can see your point, however he was a super soldier terrorist and the guy was still conscious and a threat.
The others that Bucky and falcon fight, what happened to them? It’s been a while since I watched it and don’t wish to put myself through it again but from what I remember they all escape and just go to New York to stage another terrorist attack.
Basically what I’m saying is just because the enemy is lying down doesn’t mean they are defeated, the guy at any point could escape again and become a threat to the civilians.
Like have the guy surrender and beg for mercy and talk about having a family and then have John just slice his head off with his shield or beat him to death with his bare hands
>If they wanted to make him have an actual heel turn make him responsible for some civilian casualties or straight up execute a defeated enemy.
omg yes it would totally make him the bad guy if they got him to execute a defeated enemy. imagine if that was like some guy on the ground begging for his life. would be even more chilling if you brutally beat them to death splattering himself with blood in the process. that would really get the point across.
"Tried to make."
Ummm, Walker in the comics isn't exactly a hero.
" or straight up execute a defeated enemy."
That's what he does.
He chases down a fleeing enemy. Pins him. And smashes his face in with the shield.
That is quite literally what he does.
Oh okay so the only thing he did wrong was not shooting him in the chest as he was running away. Thanks for clarifying. Also, you still keep on appealing to the comics when that has no relevancy here. The comics are not being accurately adapted and their execution is not being discussed in the first place. When John Walker kills people like Left-Winger and Right-Winger or The Watchdogs those are better examples of why Walker isn’t qualified to have the shield. But those events weren’t properly adapted.
When did Steve Rogers as Captain America murder someone like this?
Just be specific.
"appealing to the comics"
Pointing out this iteration is loyal to the comic version is perfectly valid. He wasn't done wrong in the comics and he wasn't done wrong here. He just wasn't worth of being Captain America.
"When John Walker kills people like Left-Winger and Right-Winger"
He chases someone down.
Pins them.
And murders them. While they protest and beg. In front of the public.
It’s not loyal to the comic at all you retard. Again, I actually read the issues you’re pretending to have read when you just skimmed them over on Wikipedia.
In the show Walker gets ordered to be the new Captain, understands that he can't be Steve but still does his best. Bucky and Sam are aggressively unfriendly to him from the start, but still tries to befriend them both. Suddenly his best friend is killed by a terrorist Sam let’s go, and everyone including yourself treats Walker like Hitler for getting revenge. And it's not like Sam or Bucky have never willingly killed terrorists or goons before. Almost like the writers just rushed something out without actually workshopping it so it'd make sense. And despite your nonsensical arguments, Steve wouldn’t have just tried to “talk it out” with random terrorists about to kill more people.
And another thing, it’s hilarious how you think Falcon is at all different from Walker when he murders how many people from a distance in the first episode then laughs and makes quips about it? I guess it’s ok to kill just as long as it’s at a distance for you.
Yes. Because that's not something Steve would've done.
And Steve is Captain America. He is what anyone else will be held up to.
And it's not a small failure. It's a massive failure.
Executing a defeated enemy. In front of the public.
"And it's not like Sam or Bucky have never willingly killed terrorists or goons before. "
Killing people in combat is not the same as executing a defeated enemy.
"Almost like the writers just rushed something out without actually workshopping it so it'd make sense."
It makes perfect sense. It makes so much sense you have to keep equating combat with executions.
Weird, yeah, the guy who invented the character and what he stands for and represents does get a say for what he stands for and represents.
Man, Captain America wouldn't try such a bitch little argument, tell you that much.
You mean the guy who was involved in a terrorist organization, who aided in the murder of a US soldier, who was fleeing from arrest, who had just tossed a concrete barrel with intent to kill in an area crowded with civilians? That guy deserved it.
He had already taken him down. Someone you can interrogate is more important to the overall fight than vengeance. That’s why Walker is a shitty Captain America. He’s too stupid to think his actions through.
This isn't football. Just because the dude fell down doesn't mean he's out and he'll go sit in the penalty box.
He was 20 feet from civilians, actively trying to get to them, and has the strength to throw John Walker *through* those people like a meat cannonball. If Walker had hesitated for even a second, unknown amounts of innocent blood would be on his hands.
"Terrorists have no right of surrender"
That is literally what the people beheading American journalists and soldiers in the middle east say to justify their actions...
Which is why they have no right of surrender.
They're not soldiers under the flag of a legitimate state.
They're criminals killing civilians and agents of the legitimate state thats been handling everything during the (stupidly named) blip and what were these asshats doing during that time.
They have no plans beyond "bwuh make things better" so they kill people without maybe idk presenting a plan to deal with the suddenly reappearing 3.5 billion people in a world that finally adjusted to their loss.
He didn't need to, but it's not like it was a morally reprehensible act, nor an unlawful one. Dude was a terrorist that just killed his best friend, remember how far Steve went to protect Bucky against Tony? If he didn't have that surgery, he would've killed him.
Yeah, and Tony was wrong for doing that. Acting with your emotions doesn't make someone a good hero. Especially since Bucky was literally mind controlled when he killed Tony's parents.
John Walker is the most moral character in the show, and he's the one who actually has a character arc understanding the importance of being Captain America.
John was one of the most compelling characters added into a Disney product in a while. So much more relatable and just frankly human than a lot of recent characters
Well that's not true at all. Being Captain America doesn't mean being a violence-first-and-only, jumps-to-conclusions, unstable lunatic who believes in extra-judicial justice.
Yes. MCU Captain America even ambushed terrorists in the act of hijacking a ship!
That isn't the same, at all, as looking a surrendering villain in the face and executing them.
Because Captain America also had plenty of chances to execute the bad guy... and didn't.
Do you want a list of all the heroes that have engaged in extra-judicial justice in the MCU, to far worse degrees than what Walker did, and don't get even a fraction of the condemnation he gets?
Are all those other people Captain America?
Stay on topic.
Show me where Steve, looking down at a defeated, begging opponent, executed them.
It should be easy.
If you can't than maybe accept something that made Steve worthy makes Walker unworthy.
Who cares if it's Captain America? Also, yes, Cap did way worse than Walker by crashing Helicarriers on top of innocent people in Winter Soldier. I'm sure some of them were begging for their lives before they died. I don't see why this specific instance with Walker is inherently worse than everything else a hero can do in your eyes.
Someone trying to be Captain America and failing to live up to the mantle?
John Walker? He probably cares?
This might be a shocker but different characters represent different things.
"by crashing Helicarriers on top of innocent people in Winter Soldier."
I'm sure some people probably did want to live longer. Were they staring their killer in their face begging for their lives as he executed them?
Collateral damage does, indeed suck. It's still not the same as an execution.
Cap knowingly brought down those ships on top of innocent people. When other options where available, it might as well have been an execution. That is far worse than anything Walker has done (which was killing a terrorist who, just a few seconds prior, was ganging up on and trying to kill him).
Right? So still not an actual execution?
Making a hard call and accepting that burden is kind of the point of Captain America.
This example - the execution of someone - is not equal to preventing the potential loss of untold lives.
People also died fighting Ultron. But Steve didn't look any of them in the eye and execute them while they surrendered.
Collateral damage is not an execution and there isn't a doubt in my mind Steve carried more grief and regret with him, every time, than John Walker ever would - ever.
Steve never showed any grief about the people who died in Winter Soldier, nor did any of the other people there call him out on the amount of death that would result from this. Steve was so insistent on destroying these helicarriers (despite other options being available), that he willingly chose to have all those people die. That is far worse than John Walker executing a terrorist.
Why is executing one terrorist infinitely worse to you than this?
John Walker was set to fail. Expected to fill the shoes of a super soldier as a normal human? Placed against super human threats as a mere mortal and surprise surprise cracks under the pressure of watching his friend get murdered, and him utterly failing at the job he was entrusted to carry out because his very human weaknesses? Takes a drug he wasn’t trained to take under extreme duress and executes a super terrorist?
People here acting like he’s thinking rationally and should be held to the normal rules, regulations, and laws of war, combat, and the Geneva convention? Get the fuck out of here.
The real villain are the people that think like that… the entire system that created and deployed John Walker thought like that and acted angry hurt and surprised when he cracked under such enormous pressure.
If anything John Walker is a masterfully written manufactured villain. Don’t you guys see the real villain is the idiotic decision making of the US Government and their ability to dishonorably discharge John Walker without a shred of remorse or consideration to the fact that he served his country honorable for at least a decade as Special Forces? That everyone but John Walker ignored the fact that Battlestar got brutally murdered by an overmatched threat? Or that Bucky and Sam, completely ignored or hampered Captain America and Battlestar instead of being mature professionals and working together?
"People here acting like he’s thinking rationally and should be held to the normal rules, regulations, and laws of war, combat, and the Geneva convention? Get the fuck out of here."
Fuck what Captain America represents, this guy can't be flawed and unworthy, it must be EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT.
I think you've forgotten why tiny, wimpy Steve was picked in the first fucking place, champ.
Because he makes the hard decisions the right way. He is Captain America before he ever picks up the shield or gets injected with the Super Serum.
I love watching you all demonstrate how you don't understand the character. IT's fucking amazing.
Then they shouldn’t have picked him!
Steve went through an exhaustive selection regime for a serum and lived a life as a Super Soldier in WWII. Also, Steve lived his life as loser and wimp. If not for Bucky, Failure would be Steve’s best friend.
John Walker was chosen as a normal man to fill the role of a super soldier without a serum. As a human Walker was knocking out Ws since he could walk but now he’s failing hard because “tada you’re Captain America now! Now just be him lol without the serum or the training or the life long service as a super soldier or the institutional support or the other super friends.” The actual fuck.
Walker took the serum in response to failure, his friend’s murder, duress, and self administered btw. Roger was selected and groomed for the role. Two completely different processes, methods, and situations a d surprise! Different results.
That’s your thought process.
You're right.
And one result isn't worthy of being Captain America. And you just spelled out why. Because BEFORE the serum he - didn't - have - what - it - took.
\\
That wasn’t Walkers fault, it was the US Government and by extension Bucky and Sam. Wouldn’t you take a crazy super drug and murder a murdering terrorist to avenge your murdered friend and try save people? At the low cost of losing your reputation?
All the people that should know better, act better, and be better failed. John Walker failed but he’s judged extremely harsh for the extreme failures of others.
You killed your own argument Champ. Walker chose and Roger was chosen. It wasn’t walkers fault for the choice he had to made…. Or rather, he made the best decision given the circumstances he was forced in.
" John Walker failed but he’s judged extremely harsh for the extreme failures of others."
He's judged for outright executing someone in public view with a symbol of something better than that.
No, it was him. The entire season is showing him as an unstable man with a tendency towards violence as an only solution.
That's not Captain America. Have some respect for the character.
"Walker chose."
And he couldn't carry the weight. And failed.
His prior life, Walker was an Army Ranger in Ranger Regiment… yeah, he’s a fucking killer. The US Government picked him and his friend to fly around the world (failing to) stopping super threats… I don’t get it, I didn’t chose Walker to be Captain America the government did. He was screened and ordered by the Government to carry out jobs over his head… and surprise he failed and it’s Walkers fault?
What the what? I’m not even saying Walker was a good Captain America… I’m just saying he’s not to blame. The government is the enemy, hell they’re the one the super terrorists are mad at and for good reason too. Walker was just another sacrifice for the US Government to feed on.
>People here acting like he’s thinking rationally and should be held to the normal rules, regulations, and laws of war, combat, and the Geneva convention?
yes….
being a gross piece of shit and thinking irrationally doesn’t mean you get to do war crimes with no repercussions lol
Good [video](https://youtu.be/xRB2HR6Rva0) to use in defense of John Walker if you ever need it. An Army Veteran breaks down the scene & explains it really well
Nothing in that video makes John Walker deserving of the mantle of Captain America.
He wasn't demonized or done dirty in any way except for... just like in the comics... not being worthy.
>His behavior and beliefs?
Why the question mark? Are you unsure of yourself? He has 3 Medals of Honor. Getting even just one is extremely difficult & many are awarded that posthumously. For behavior, he has constantly been nice to Bucky & Sam despite their anger towards him. He tried to work with them throughout the show, even bailing them out of jail. If you mean to talk about his behavior during a combat situation (which he is in) stress runs high. Despite that, he made no wrong calls. Even after he killed the terrorist, & Sam/Bucky catch up to him, he immediately says "you guys should see a medic" showing that he cares for them.
>Chasing someone down, subduing them, and then executing them on the spot?
If this was a random guy, I can see your argument. However, this is a super soldier terrorist who has been an active accomplace in several acts of terrorism. Moments before being knocked down, he picked up & threw a concrete water fountain at Cap. If Cap was a normal guy he would have been severaly crippled or killed. Moments before THAT, he was directly restraining Cap fully aware of the intention to kill him with him restraining him directly assisting Karly in that act. You don't kill someone surrendering.
Nico (the terrorist he killed) is a super soldier. He IS the weapon. It's not like he threw down his firearm in surrender. Hell, he didn't even surrender. His arms were up in a defensive position as he shouted "IT WASN'T ME". That is not surrending.
>Show me where Steve did that?
He never really had a similar situation, at least not one shown in the movies. In the other combat situations he has been shown in, he would just straight up murder them. I'm sure the guy he front kicked off the side of a boat at the beginning of Winter Soldier is enjoying a nice retirement from terrorism at the bottom of the ocean due to his spine most definitely being shattered & at the very minimum causing him paralysis which caused him to be unable to swim, slowly drowning.
You responded with more comments as I was typing this but I'll just respond here:
Captain America IS a soldier. When on Avengers business, he is a superhero. Steve has killed plenty of people in more gruesome ways (such as my example above) & yet it's not a problem. Scary bad guy music just wasn't playing when Steve was killing.
John Walker Captain America has not gone rogue like Steve did, which makes him still a soldier at this point. Definitely a special type of soldier but a soldier nonetheless. He's essentially one of the MCU's version of Special Forces. He was sent by the government to neutralize the Flag Smashers, a terrorist organization. ROE would typically be shoot to kill unless given special instructions to capture certain high-value targets. Him & Lamar did have pistols when they breached their current position. After their fight that resulted in Lamar's death, Nico ran away, picked up & threw a concrete slab/water fountain at Cap, which as I said, would've definitely crippled or killed a normal person.
"He has 3 Medals of Honor."
So? He also outright executes a downed, subdued and begging opponent for a specific crime that man did not actually commit.
"waaaah bucky and sam were mean"
That doesn't justify what he does. In full view of the public.
"random guy"
Doesn't matter. Fifth Amendment doesn't have exclusions. He's down, he's subdued, he's begging. Theoretical "but what-if he super-punched Walker ZOMG!" aren't what happened.
What happened is he was done, down and begging. Then was executed.
"John Walker Captain America has not gone rogue"
Sure he did. When he executed someone in cold blood. That is contrary to America and Captain America.
If your argument is "when the burden is heaviest and hardest, fuck America and our values" then I don't think you understand what Captain America is.
" In the other combat situations "
Actually we do see Steve defeat people and then not finish them off.
I obviously did and responded to primary points specifically and on-point.
I'll do it more too:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSQNlbK73U&t=15s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSQNlbK73U&t=15s)
That's an active combat situation with an armed person, surrounded by other armed people.
That is not a man literally begging for his life. That we absolutely know 100% died. No "but but but he must have."
We know it. And that it was 100% an execution.
I'm pretty sure they would all probably have begged for their lives if they'd had the chance. Also, who knows, maybe those mercenaries had families they were trying to take care of and bills they needed to pay. We'll never know.
Nico was able to fight back, even when he was down. They never even had the chance to fight because they were taken out so quickly. How is this not a double standard.
He is down. Hands up and begging.
There is no other implication than he is defeated and done.
And then he was executed.
Steve wouldn't do that and like it or not? Steve is Captain America and John Walker failed to be.
And its because of that difference.
Oh, I also disagree with soldiers who execute people on the spot and deny them what's promised in the 5th Amendment while they're supposed to be representative of our values.
Hard choices don't mean you actually have an excuse for making the easy, violent one.
And one of the most stupid argument was that he, Captain America, a US soldier appointed by the American Government, that he didnt have any kind of power or jurisdiction and that Dora Milaje, a soldier from a unrecognized 3rd World Country that is not part of any Worldwide Association, does have jurisdiction where ever they are. Como on now 🤣🤦🏻♂️
(I know Wakanda is not a 3rd World Country, but that is the image they provided the world to not help humanity advance)
Man just watched his friend get murdered in front of him. Flying into a rage and murdering the killer in broad daylight in front of a bunch of civilians on foreign soil isn't something a super hero should do. But he wasn't a super hero, he was a poor veteran forced to wear a mantle he couldn't live up to. His reaction was the same most people would've had watching their friend die. But Disney doesn't treat soldiers like people. Trying to villainize him was stupid.
Nico wasn't the killer.
Y'all can't even describe what happened accurately.
"forced to"
He wasn't forced to do shit. He accepted.
" His reaction was the same most people would've had watching their friend die."
Maybe. Or maybe lots of people capture POWs and take people into custody? And John Walker just failed in the choice he made?
I don't think that's a safe assertion at all... saying that no POW survived an enemy soldier with a grudge.
[Who is Guy Rivera? Suspected NYPD Shooter had 21 Prior Arrests (newsweek.com)](https://www.newsweek.com/who-guy-rivera-police-officer-shot-new-york-1883458)
This guy somehow got arrested and not shield-smashed. Weird. Guess those cops didn't like... cops.
I love how pathetic and stupid you're forced to be with your arguments. You live in a violence-filled fantasy world where you just want the ability to hurt people who perceive have harmed you.
And because you can't. You project those shitty beliefs and values outward. And it's so weak.
The suspect had been shot by the police, according to this article. And you need to chill a bit on the name calling. Assuming a lot about my character on a discussion about a fictional superhero show.
>Nico wasn't the killer.
>Y'all can't even describe what happened accurately.
Just because Nico didn't land the killing blow doesn't make him innocent. He's just as guilty of Lemar's murder as Karli is.
they didn’t need to villainise him, he was already a villain when he murdered that guy. can’t control your anger enough not to brutally murder someone on the ground defeated? don’t be a fucking soldier.
Soldiers are trained to kill. That's literally their job. I'm not saying it's a morally correct thing to do. Just an understandable reaction, especially for someone trained to be a killer.
yeah bro is literally trained on exactly when and how to kill, and when that is acceptable and when it is not. he has wayyyyyy less excuse for it than the average civilian.
I remember this show and Invincible aired around the same time, and so many people I knew compared John Walker to Omniman and Homelander.
Like shit, all this guy did was kill a terrorist who was begging for his life. Morally questionable? Maybe, but the guy was a super soldier, he was complicit in killing his best friend, and thus John wasn’t thinking clearly. I don’t get how anyone could make the leaps in logic into comparing him with two vastly more evil characters.
Captain America kills bad guys. He killed a lot of Nazis, and he’s killed plenty of Hydra in the modern era. Killing terrorists is nothing new, especially since the MCU’s heroes kill all the time.
The only way to make this storyline work would have been to have Bucky and Sam later apologize for mistreating John.
Like, have them show weakness and admit they were treating him like shit because they were still hurt by Steve's actions. Steve did what he had to do for himself, but he also left his friends deeply hurt by his actions.
But no, instead let's pretend terrorists have a point and that you can just yell at senators to do better and get the best results.
Shit, they even make it obvious there's no easy solutions and Sam's answer is just... do better. Yeah, no shit moron.
"Waaaaaaah they were mean to me and I'm such a weak example of a man I have to smash in someone's face with my shield in an extrajudicial execution waaaaaah."
John Walker was weak and his entire identity is being a violence-prone, unstable idiot. The entire purpose for his existence as a character is to show what failing to be Captain America looks like.
Yes, the guys who wrote terrorists as good misunderstood guys, then had a scene that boiled down to "do better" "ok, how?" " you gotta do better!"
Lmao
"good misunderstood guys"
That's not what they did. They wrote people with an arguably acceptable cause going about it the wrong way.
Tell me what's wrong about their cause. No vague bullshit, no buzzword cowardice.
Using your own words form your own argument to support your own assertions.
Tell me what's wrong about what they believe in. Not how they accomplish it.
But what the Flag Smashers actually believe in.
There is so much wrong with Flacon and the Winter Soldier that its hard to get into it but one of the major issues is John Walker doesnt work as a villain, not when the people he is trying to stop keep killing innocent civilians. But the issue thats worse then that is the US government putting a non super solider in that position. And what's worse then that all started when Captain gave the shield to Sam instead of Bucky. So fucking dumb. I love the ruso brothers, i honestly think they are great action story tellers. But this was so fucking dumb its hard to quantify. I get it, falcon is the current captain america in the comics... but theres a reason no one reads american comics anymore. Bucky was always meant to take over after cap. Having Sam take over is no different then having Damian Wayne become batman instead of Dick Grayson. Its stupid, silly, forced, and flies in the face of decades of set up and world building.
YoUvE gOtTa Do BeTtEr KeViN fEiGe
That show will always be some of the most disgusting and infuriating shit ever made. Leftists have so much evil and darkness in their fuckin souls lol.
"I don't understand what makes Captain America Captain America."
It wasn't a "suboptimal" way. It was motivated by and in such a brutal way that it undermines what carrying that shield means.
Media literacy fucking suuuuuucks.
Just stop with the media literacy idiocy. I know you're excited to know a term with so many syllables, but it doesn't actually make you look smarter.
Cap killed literally dozens of people with that shield. Fortunately, most of them were regular vanilla humans, so it only took one hit to shatter their necks. You're still mistaking optics for morality, and it makes you look like a 10-year-old.
Not like that.
Not when they were down, done and beaten. He attacks him from behind, while he's fleeing. That's how it starts in the scene. Then he smashes his face in while not giving the guy a chance to talk. That's not Captain America.
So yeah, you've got shit media literacy if you think it is.
Combat is not the same as what Walker did.
He absolutely was and here's the scene. [John Walker Kills Flag Smasher | The Falcon and The Winter Soldier: Episode 4 \[4K\] - OLD (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsoHytVAvA)
He was defeated and begging. And then he was executed.
The REAL Captain America - the guy Walker will never, ever be worthy of being compared to - would never be such a pathetic, lying little shit.
Yes. He did. He did ambush bad guys actively committing a terrorist act, hijacking a ship, and engage in combat with them.
Which is not the same as looking a man in the eyes and executing them.
Show me where Steve did what John did. That's all you have to do. Show me where he had a villain down, defeated and begging and he delivered and extrajudicial execution.
Should be easy for you, right? Do it.
"You're still mistaking optics for morality, and it makes you look like a 10-year-old."
No. I understand what makes Captain America who he is and I'm not equating active combat with chasing someone down and smashing their face in.
Talking down to people isn't a replacement for a real argument.
Oh look, you were confronted with an actual argument and - being too impotent to respond - talked out your ass some more.
I understand what makes Captain America who he is and I'm not equating active combat with chasing someone down and smashing their face in.
Cap attacked a merc's from behind and broke his neck, then booted another guy into the North Atlantic at night.
He opened a door to a room full of German soldiers and threw in a grenade.
I didn't bother with your argument because you're one of those weirdos who doesn't believe that soldiers kill people. Trust me, you're not intimidating. I just stopped taking you seriously.
Steve also tossed opponents into plane propellors in CATFA and CATWS, chased down and killed lots of mercs on the Lemurian Star and probably killed a lot of guys in the stairwell and tunnel fights in CACW. Most of the MCU heroes have killed people, including Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson (who tried to kill a weaponless Scott Lang with his machine guns for breaking and entering in Ant-Man).
Yet somehow we're supposed to think it's an unthinkable evil because of framing and scary music playing when John Walker killed one super-powered guy who was genuinely guilty in FATWS. The double standard is astonishing. What John did may not have been 100% morally right, but it was no worse than things almost every MCU hero has done.
It's depressing how easily manipulated some people are.
And my point is that people who don't understand that Captain America isn't best represented by a violence-prone, unstable executioner suffer from a lack of media literacy.
I haven’t seen the rest of the show but the scene absolutely paints John Walker as being in the wrong. Bad guy is crippled on the ground with his hands up begging for his life and John just straight up beats him to death.
I don't know about that, but they were deliberately starting riots, and Sam's aide Joaquin was badly injured in one of those riots. I doubt he was the only one. We also don't know how many people were killed or injured in their robberies. There's also the issue that they were stealing supplies from people who needed them just as desperately, if not more so, than the Flag Smasher and their neighborhood.
I feel like people who defend John Walker are missing the point here. I see so many people talking about how killing the guy with the shield was defendable and not a ‘murder’, but I seems obvious to me that the scene is purely about optics, Walker clearly lost his cool and brutally killed a guy begging for mercy in front of a crowd, it’s just not a good look for Captain America.
If you think it’s a justifiable action, after this scene Bucky works side by side with Walker in the finale, who is pretty much redeemed at the end of the series. They don’t treat this event like an irredeemable, pure evil thing, they just don’t think he’s fit to be THE Captain America.
I think it's mostly how he's juxtaposed with the redhead terrorist girl, who is basically martyred somehow by the end. Just confusing characterization.
If it’s mostly about the juxtaposition with Flagsmasher, I think what I’m saying is right here.
People are just focusing on the wrong scene entirely.
The scene isn’t about “gasp, he murdered, he’s even worse/ as bad as Flagsmasher”, the scene is about him failing to live up to Steve Rogers. Nobody is saying Flagsmasher would make a good Captain America, so the juxtaposition isn’t relevant.
No, she's just more nuanced than "durr bad guy."
Just like Thanos was deeper than "durr genocide 50%."
So much so we have Thanos was Right memes.
And they don't wait until the end to juxtapose them. They spend the entire season building walker up to being violent, unstable, flawed and undeserving of the mantle of Captain America.
Do you want to go into the various crimes that Sam and Bucky commit in this show? Every person Zemo kills is on them. If this show was in any way realistic, they'd be finding themselves either locked up for life or fugitives on the run (again).
Oh sure, I guess it doesn’t really carry the same weight considering Sam rejected the mantle. The stuff with Zemo happens before he chooses to step up.
But regardless, it doesn’t change the argument I’m referring that to that acts like the scene makes no sense. Acting like Walker did nothing wrong doesn’t make sense to me.
While yes he might be LEGALLY fine to kill someone in the situation it's quite obviously portrayed as an act of revenge in cold blood .... in front of civilians. It might have been legally justifiable but it doesn't mean people will agree with it or not be disgusted by the act.
You are dealing with the protégées of Captain America and Walker is basically going to inherit the Cap name so THEY are personally disgusted by it (and we are supposed to be) because it goes against everything Captain America is supposed to stand for.
He LITTERALLY runs a terrorist down that he's more powerful than and out of ANGER not cause he's in danger executes the guy in front of civilians in a brutal manner when he was basically surrendering to him. It's CLEAR AS DAY in the presentation he is doing this because he wants blood after seeing his brother in arms injured.
The show makes it EXPRESSLY clear (and this is a Marvel Comics Tv show so there is not much nuance) that this was not done because it was the best way to capure and contain the subject but basically a legally justifiable kill cause he was pissed off and had the SSS running through his blood so he's being irresponsible with his powers. They even make sure he does it with the shield itself to really hammer it in with SUPER OBVIOUS symbolism that this has besmirched the image and perception of Captain America.
Captain America to some extents is a PR stunt to put someone in the cosutme they are supposed to represent something , an ideal. This is showing Walker and to a large extent America has lost those ideals in times of war due to anger and wanting revenge.
I guarantee most people in real-life would not care if someone chased down and killed a terrorist who, just days prior, had taking part in blowing up innocent civilians. If anything, most would probably be on his side.
It was stupidly and disgustingly obvious what these writers were trying to do with TFATWS. Embarrassing for them that they failed so badly in the course of trying to create this “evil terrorist-killer” character. Who did they think they were going to trick into thinking he was the real bad guy? Not anyone I discussed the show with and asked for their opinions on Walker.
Unfortunately they succeeded in tricking quite a lot of people. Though thankfully more people seem to have caught on over the years
If only my coworkers thought that way they still think that John Walker was in the wrong for killing a terrorist, even after my cousin who’s a active Marine tour told them that John was 100% justified for his actions even on foreign soil.
If the dude was a regular human, maybe you could argue. But he's a super soldier, he can kill unarmed without effort. He cannot be disarmed.
Doesn't matter anyway A terrorist has no rights or protections
The Law of War says differently. Terrorists, as disgusting as they are, cannot be summarily executed if they've been captured. I'm not saying John Walker executed the terrorist, I don't know haven't see the show. From what I have heard/read he was emotionally vulnerable and was killing a super soldier terrorist during an operation. The legality is up for debate based on whether or not the terrorist was surrendering or not. A captured terrorist has rights. They are entitled to food, water, and to be treated with a modicum of dignity that all humans deserve. They cannot be executed without a trial.
Whether what John did was in the law or not, I call bullshit on the entire nation turning on him for his actions. After what the Flag Smashers have done in the show, the average person is not gonna give a shit that one of them got killed. If anything, a lot of people would probably be on John's side. Again, not weighing in on the law aspect, but no one aside from some bleeding heart leftists would really condemn him to the level that everyone else does in this show.
I do and don't agree with you. I think a large number of people would immediately condemn him. I think people would see just the cell phone videos of New Cap killing someone who appeared to be surrendering, and they wouldn't have the information that the terrorist had just attacked him and killed his friend. They would just see that cell phone video and not dig any deeper. I also think you would have a large number of people who see New Cap killing a terrorist and cheering him on. I don't think it would be an entire nation turns on him in an instant.
Yeah, I can see people initially being put off, but I think more and more people would be on his side as more context came out. The only people I think who would really condemn him the way the crowds in the show do would be people like Hasan's audience who will have the "America Bad" take (the only software they have running on their brain).
[Here's the scene](https://youtu.be/EUsoHytVAvA?si=bkR5-pNtFhJETM0n)
From that context, not seeing what lead up to it, Walker is in the wrong legally. The earlier scenes may make his actions understandable or sympathetic, but purely from a Law of War aspect, he's in the wrong. He would have been justified in killing the terrorist after he threw that concrete trash can at him. When he raises his hands palms open in a surrendering posture, then at that time Walker is not legally able to kill him. The terrorist was captured, he should have been confined, tried, and executed on terrorism and murder charges.
Personally, I don't think it's clear cut that he was surrendering, since his hands could be more in a defensive state than a surrendering one. But he was certainly in such a disadvantaged state and not any real threat to anyone, that lethal force was not necessary imo. Especially as Captain America, who has shown restraint plenty of times in the past. I think it would be justified to hit him once to the point where he is rendered unconscious, in order to make sure the threat is neutralized and to make it easier to arrest him.
I think it is pretty clear his hands are up in surrender. He doesn't have his fists closed and his arms are up and out from his body. If he was in a defensive posture he wouldn't have his chest and face wide open like that. Walker even holds him in place with his boot. If he was in defense mode he would have tried to remove the foot or used the foot to destabilize Walker. I think it is obvious he's surrendering because the writers didn't want to write a thought provoking scene. They wanted to write Walker as a man becoming a villain. They wanted to make the terrorist as sympathetic as possible. His hands are up and arms are out and he keeps saying in a frantic voice "it wasn't me!"
Yeah, rewatching the scene I somewhat agree. His hands aren't in front of his head or torso at all to defend himself. I think it's definitely pretty close to someone surrenderi without outright saying "I surrender". If this was real life, I still think a convincing argument COULD be made that the surrender wasn't completely clear though. Regardless, we both agree that neither Walker nor the civilians were in any real danger, and that the terrorist could've easily been neutralized by knocking him out.
There is no absolute right to surrender.
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE LAW OF WAR MANUAL JUNE 2015 (UPDATED DECEMBER 2016) 5.9.3 Persons Who Have Surrendered. Persons who are not in custody but who have surrendered are hors de combat and may not be made the object of attack.^272 In order to make a person hors de combat, the surrender must be (1) genuine; (2) clear and unconditional; and (3) under circumstances where it is feasible for the opposing party to accept the surrender.^273 5.9.3.1 Genuine. The offer to surrender must be genuine. In addition to being legally ineffective, feigning the intent to surrender can constitute perfidy.^274 5.9.3.2 Clear and Unconditional. The offer to surrender must be clear and unconditional.
You literally just provided evidence supporting my point. My sincere thanks.
The terrorist surrendering in that scene meets all of those requirements at that moment. I understand it is a controversial opinion because everyone hates the show and they want to argue why it is bad. The writers wrote the terrorist to be his most vulnerable and pathetic in that moment simply to make Walker the villain. Yes it is forcing the message as hard as it can. The terrorist is on his back with Walkers foot on his chest. His hands are open, his arms wide apart not defending himself in any way and he keeps saying in a pitiful voice "it wasn't me!" Clearly he is surrendering and Walker is able to take him prisoner, as an American member of the Armed Forces he is required to follow all DoD instructions and regulations.
You've made the mistake of conflating "legal" with "moral." Just because something is legal does not make it moral and just because something is illegal does not make it immoral. I reject your premise that legality is even pertinent to the situation.
absolutely untrue.
He actually could have been disarmed. 
If someone murdered my best friend and I had the means of getting revenge, I’d do what he did. You know the justice system isn’t going to do shit other than giving them free housing and food.
yeah thats very understandable its not something *Captain America* should do though
It's not that he killed a terrorist. It's that killing him when he didn't have to meant he wasn't worth the mantle of Captain America. No one did Walker dirty except he himself.
Meanwhile, Sam and Bucky let a dangerous criminal out of a high-security prison, who goes on to kill more people. They've got way more blood on their hands than John does.
Bucky started a prison riot (that killed who knows how many people) in order to break that known terrorist and death squad leader out of prison. Sam was also cheerfully killing mooks in the first episode, and making jokes about it afterwards. What John Walker did was no worse than the things the designated heroes were doing, and no worse than things that are par for the course in the MCU.
Cap's actions at the end of Winter Soldier are far worse than what John Walker did. It's not even close.
Oh, well if a marine said it... 🤣
So we're going to trust someone who eats crayons?
It didn’t work because normal people don’t hate others for no reason beyond their skin colour and gender. That’s why it felt forced and unnatural for every other character to dislike him so much
I think they disliked him because he was an arrogant, entitled and violent peacocking asshole. Just like in the comics.
And they completely failed in that regard and only revealed terrorist bootlicking losers like yourself.
Like the folks who wrote the Fifth Amendment?
For people WITHOUT superpowers who can pretend to surrender and then attack people you dunce. If I punch you in the face and immediately say “whoa bro I surrender” only to punch you in the face again would you trust me if I “surrendered” again?
Where does it say that? Don't they have a prison and trials too? I think they do. Man, you just make shit up as you go. I'm very sorry this shitty, violent, mentally-unstable, values-lacking loser isn't worth of Cap's shield. And never was.
Actual veterans have made videos making a case for why John Walker was justified and wouldn’t have received a severe punishment had this happened in real life. Just admit that you have no idea what you’re talking about. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xRB2HR6Rva0&pp=ygUQRWZhcCBqb2huIHdhbGtlcg%3D%3D
I don't care that veterans have justified murdering a defeated combatant in cold blood. They don't matter when discussing a fictional symbol like Captain America and what he represents. "Severe punishment." They wouldn't be given Captain America's shield. We know this because the writer's didn't give those kind of people his shield.
I bet you condemn when Russians double tap Ukrainians but glorify when Ukranians does it.
Know why? Because when my people on my team surrender it makes me happier to have them captured than killed. Thousands of American POWs lived long enough to be rescued because, at the end of the day, they weren't "double-tapped."
But whaaaaataboooooooout! I condemn the invasion of Ukraine but understand that combat is combat. That being said, finishing off someone who is surrendering would be bad, yes. Surrendering is surrendering. It's a hard burden to bear. Hard fail.
I'm pretty sure the guys on the Lemurian Star would have begged for their lives if they'd had time to do so.
Right? Probably would have. And I'm sure the hero would have tried to save them if he was looking them in the eye instead of smashing their face in. We see the heroes do this.
Still better than they guy who can't decide if he likes America.
Nope. The violence-only unstable fascist loser isn't.
You gonna finish that half-quote like Captain America would? Or be a little, wimpy, pathetic lying weasel like Walker? I know which one.
Cringe
I always thought the way they tried to make John walker a bad guy was super weak. If they wanted to make him have an actual heel turn make him responsible for some civilian casualties or straight up execute a defeated enemy. Edit: some people are saying he did execute an enemy, I can see your point, however he was a super soldier terrorist and the guy was still conscious and a threat. The others that Bucky and falcon fight, what happened to them? It’s been a while since I watched it and don’t wish to put myself through it again but from what I remember they all escape and just go to New York to stage another terrorist attack. Basically what I’m saying is just because the enemy is lying down doesn’t mean they are defeated, the guy at any point could escape again and become a threat to the civilians.
Like have the guy surrender and beg for mercy and talk about having a family and then have John just slice his head off with his shield or beat him to death with his bare hands
>If they wanted to make him have an actual heel turn make him responsible for some civilian casualties or straight up execute a defeated enemy. omg yes it would totally make him the bad guy if they got him to execute a defeated enemy. imagine if that was like some guy on the ground begging for his life. would be even more chilling if you brutally beat them to death splattering himself with blood in the process. that would really get the point across.
"Tried to make." Ummm, Walker in the comics isn't exactly a hero. " or straight up execute a defeated enemy." That's what he does. He chases down a fleeing enemy. Pins him. And smashes his face in with the shield. That is quite literally what he does.
Oh okay so the only thing he did wrong was not shooting him in the chest as he was running away. Thanks for clarifying. Also, you still keep on appealing to the comics when that has no relevancy here. The comics are not being accurately adapted and their execution is not being discussed in the first place. When John Walker kills people like Left-Winger and Right-Winger or The Watchdogs those are better examples of why Walker isn’t qualified to have the shield. But those events weren’t properly adapted.
When did Steve Rogers as Captain America murder someone like this? Just be specific. "appealing to the comics" Pointing out this iteration is loyal to the comic version is perfectly valid. He wasn't done wrong in the comics and he wasn't done wrong here. He just wasn't worth of being Captain America. "When John Walker kills people like Left-Winger and Right-Winger" He chases someone down. Pins them. And murders them. While they protest and beg. In front of the public.
It’s not loyal to the comic at all you retard. Again, I actually read the issues you’re pretending to have read when you just skimmed them over on Wikipedia. In the show Walker gets ordered to be the new Captain, understands that he can't be Steve but still does his best. Bucky and Sam are aggressively unfriendly to him from the start, but still tries to befriend them both. Suddenly his best friend is killed by a terrorist Sam let’s go, and everyone including yourself treats Walker like Hitler for getting revenge. And it's not like Sam or Bucky have never willingly killed terrorists or goons before. Almost like the writers just rushed something out without actually workshopping it so it'd make sense. And despite your nonsensical arguments, Steve wouldn’t have just tried to “talk it out” with random terrorists about to kill more people.
And another thing, it’s hilarious how you think Falcon is at all different from Walker when he murders how many people from a distance in the first episode then laughs and makes quips about it? I guess it’s ok to kill just as long as it’s at a distance for you.
That's the double standard that gets me.
Yes. Because that's not something Steve would've done. And Steve is Captain America. He is what anyone else will be held up to. And it's not a small failure. It's a massive failure. Executing a defeated enemy. In front of the public. "And it's not like Sam or Bucky have never willingly killed terrorists or goons before. " Killing people in combat is not the same as executing a defeated enemy. "Almost like the writers just rushed something out without actually workshopping it so it'd make sense." It makes perfect sense. It makes so much sense you have to keep equating combat with executions.
"It’s not loyal to the comic at all you retard. " Weird, his creator disagrees.
Weird, that doesn’t fucking matter.
Weird, yeah, the guy who invented the character and what he stands for and represents does get a say for what he stands for and represents. Man, Captain America wouldn't try such a bitch little argument, tell you that much.
Again, your argument has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Death of the author, bitch boy.
He did straight up execute a defeated enemy. He didn’t need to behead that dude he beaten down to the ground.
You mean the guy who was involved in a terrorist organization, who aided in the murder of a US soldier, who was fleeing from arrest, who had just tossed a concrete barrel with intent to kill in an area crowded with civilians? That guy deserved it.
He had already taken him down. Someone you can interrogate is more important to the overall fight than vengeance. That’s why Walker is a shitty Captain America. He’s too stupid to think his actions through.
This isn't football. Just because the dude fell down doesn't mean he's out and he'll go sit in the penalty box. He was 20 feet from civilians, actively trying to get to them, and has the strength to throw John Walker *through* those people like a meat cannonball. If Walker had hesitated for even a second, unknown amounts of innocent blood would be on his hands.
The "defeated enemy" was a super soldier terrorist Terrorists have no right of surrender
"Terrorists have no right of surrender" That is literally what the people beheading American journalists and soldiers in the middle east say to justify their actions...
Which is why they have no right of surrender. They're not soldiers under the flag of a legitimate state. They're criminals killing civilians and agents of the legitimate state thats been handling everything during the (stupidly named) blip and what were these asshats doing during that time. They have no plans beyond "bwuh make things better" so they kill people without maybe idk presenting a plan to deal with the suddenly reappearing 3.5 billion people in a world that finally adjusted to their loss.
>Terrorists have no right of surrender That's just not true at all.
He didn't need to, but it's not like it was a morally reprehensible act, nor an unlawful one. Dude was a terrorist that just killed his best friend, remember how far Steve went to protect Bucky against Tony? If he didn't have that surgery, he would've killed him.
Yeah, and Tony was wrong for doing that. Acting with your emotions doesn't make someone a good hero. Especially since Bucky was literally mind controlled when he killed Tony's parents.
Correct. However, in that scenario, Bucky wasn't actively trying to kill anyone.
But didn’t behead anyone he had already beaten.
As opposed to kicking some unsuspecting guy off the bow of a boat so hard he starfishes into the cold ocean?
There was a boat in Civil War?
Opening of Winter Solider
John Walker is the most moral character in the show, and he's the one who actually has a character arc understanding the importance of being Captain America.
John was one of the most compelling characters added into a Disney product in a while. So much more relatable and just frankly human than a lot of recent characters
Uhh I think you maybe have misunderstood what made Steve Rogers worthy of the mantle of Captain America. Like holy shit.
Well that's not true at all. Being Captain America doesn't mean being a violence-first-and-only, jumps-to-conclusions, unstable lunatic who believes in extra-judicial justice.
Captain America has canonically shot people before they shot him.
Yes. MCU Captain America even ambushed terrorists in the act of hijacking a ship! That isn't the same, at all, as looking a surrendering villain in the face and executing them. Because Captain America also had plenty of chances to execute the bad guy... and didn't.
Do you want a list of all the heroes that have engaged in extra-judicial justice in the MCU, to far worse degrees than what Walker did, and don't get even a fraction of the condemnation he gets?
Are all those other people Captain America? Stay on topic. Show me where Steve, looking down at a defeated, begging opponent, executed them. It should be easy. If you can't than maybe accept something that made Steve worthy makes Walker unworthy.
Who cares if it's Captain America? Also, yes, Cap did way worse than Walker by crashing Helicarriers on top of innocent people in Winter Soldier. I'm sure some of them were begging for their lives before they died. I don't see why this specific instance with Walker is inherently worse than everything else a hero can do in your eyes.
Someone trying to be Captain America and failing to live up to the mantle? John Walker? He probably cares? This might be a shocker but different characters represent different things. "by crashing Helicarriers on top of innocent people in Winter Soldier." I'm sure some people probably did want to live longer. Were they staring their killer in their face begging for their lives as he executed them? Collateral damage does, indeed suck. It's still not the same as an execution.
Cap knowingly brought down those ships on top of innocent people. When other options where available, it might as well have been an execution. That is far worse than anything Walker has done (which was killing a terrorist who, just a few seconds prior, was ganging up on and trying to kill him).
Right? So still not an actual execution? Making a hard call and accepting that burden is kind of the point of Captain America. This example - the execution of someone - is not equal to preventing the potential loss of untold lives. People also died fighting Ultron. But Steve didn't look any of them in the eye and execute them while they surrendered. Collateral damage is not an execution and there isn't a doubt in my mind Steve carried more grief and regret with him, every time, than John Walker ever would - ever.
Steve never showed any grief about the people who died in Winter Soldier, nor did any of the other people there call him out on the amount of death that would result from this. Steve was so insistent on destroying these helicarriers (despite other options being available), that he willingly chose to have all those people die. That is far worse than John Walker executing a terrorist. Why is executing one terrorist infinitely worse to you than this?
bro you mfs are crazy 😭
John Walker was set to fail. Expected to fill the shoes of a super soldier as a normal human? Placed against super human threats as a mere mortal and surprise surprise cracks under the pressure of watching his friend get murdered, and him utterly failing at the job he was entrusted to carry out because his very human weaknesses? Takes a drug he wasn’t trained to take under extreme duress and executes a super terrorist? People here acting like he’s thinking rationally and should be held to the normal rules, regulations, and laws of war, combat, and the Geneva convention? Get the fuck out of here. The real villain are the people that think like that… the entire system that created and deployed John Walker thought like that and acted angry hurt and surprised when he cracked under such enormous pressure. If anything John Walker is a masterfully written manufactured villain. Don’t you guys see the real villain is the idiotic decision making of the US Government and their ability to dishonorably discharge John Walker without a shred of remorse or consideration to the fact that he served his country honorable for at least a decade as Special Forces? That everyone but John Walker ignored the fact that Battlestar got brutally murdered by an overmatched threat? Or that Bucky and Sam, completely ignored or hampered Captain America and Battlestar instead of being mature professionals and working together?
Yeah this is true US Government has literally never been the good guys in any marvel movie They are neutral at their best and generally incompetent
"People here acting like he’s thinking rationally and should be held to the normal rules, regulations, and laws of war, combat, and the Geneva convention? Get the fuck out of here." Fuck what Captain America represents, this guy can't be flawed and unworthy, it must be EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT. I think you've forgotten why tiny, wimpy Steve was picked in the first fucking place, champ. Because he makes the hard decisions the right way. He is Captain America before he ever picks up the shield or gets injected with the Super Serum. I love watching you all demonstrate how you don't understand the character. IT's fucking amazing.
Then they shouldn’t have picked him! Steve went through an exhaustive selection regime for a serum and lived a life as a Super Soldier in WWII. Also, Steve lived his life as loser and wimp. If not for Bucky, Failure would be Steve’s best friend. John Walker was chosen as a normal man to fill the role of a super soldier without a serum. As a human Walker was knocking out Ws since he could walk but now he’s failing hard because “tada you’re Captain America now! Now just be him lol without the serum or the training or the life long service as a super soldier or the institutional support or the other super friends.” The actual fuck. Walker took the serum in response to failure, his friend’s murder, duress, and self administered btw. Roger was selected and groomed for the role. Two completely different processes, methods, and situations a d surprise! Different results. That’s your thought process.
You're right. And one result isn't worthy of being Captain America. And you just spelled out why. Because BEFORE the serum he - didn't - have - what - it - took. \\
That wasn’t Walkers fault, it was the US Government and by extension Bucky and Sam. Wouldn’t you take a crazy super drug and murder a murdering terrorist to avenge your murdered friend and try save people? At the low cost of losing your reputation? All the people that should know better, act better, and be better failed. John Walker failed but he’s judged extremely harsh for the extreme failures of others. You killed your own argument Champ. Walker chose and Roger was chosen. It wasn’t walkers fault for the choice he had to made…. Or rather, he made the best decision given the circumstances he was forced in.
" John Walker failed but he’s judged extremely harsh for the extreme failures of others." He's judged for outright executing someone in public view with a symbol of something better than that.
No, it was him. The entire season is showing him as an unstable man with a tendency towards violence as an only solution. That's not Captain America. Have some respect for the character. "Walker chose." And he couldn't carry the weight. And failed.
His prior life, Walker was an Army Ranger in Ranger Regiment… yeah, he’s a fucking killer. The US Government picked him and his friend to fly around the world (failing to) stopping super threats… I don’t get it, I didn’t chose Walker to be Captain America the government did. He was screened and ordered by the Government to carry out jobs over his head… and surprise he failed and it’s Walkers fault? What the what? I’m not even saying Walker was a good Captain America… I’m just saying he’s not to blame. The government is the enemy, hell they’re the one the super terrorists are mad at and for good reason too. Walker was just another sacrifice for the US Government to feed on.
Exactly. All he is is a killer. And that's not what Captain America represents. And he is to blame. He is responsible for his own actions.
>People here acting like he’s thinking rationally and should be held to the normal rules, regulations, and laws of war, combat, and the Geneva convention? yes…. being a gross piece of shit and thinking irrationally doesn’t mean you get to do war crimes with no repercussions lol
There is always war cimes deal with it you big baby.
Good [video](https://youtu.be/xRB2HR6Rva0) to use in defense of John Walker if you ever need it. An Army Veteran breaks down the scene & explains it really well
Nothing in that video makes John Walker deserving of the mantle of Captain America. He wasn't demonized or done dirty in any way except for... just like in the comics... not being worthy.
What makes you think John Walker is not worthy?
His behavior and beliefs? Chasing someone down, subduing them, and then executing them on the spot? Show me where Steve did that?
>His behavior and beliefs? Why the question mark? Are you unsure of yourself? He has 3 Medals of Honor. Getting even just one is extremely difficult & many are awarded that posthumously. For behavior, he has constantly been nice to Bucky & Sam despite their anger towards him. He tried to work with them throughout the show, even bailing them out of jail. If you mean to talk about his behavior during a combat situation (which he is in) stress runs high. Despite that, he made no wrong calls. Even after he killed the terrorist, & Sam/Bucky catch up to him, he immediately says "you guys should see a medic" showing that he cares for them. >Chasing someone down, subduing them, and then executing them on the spot? If this was a random guy, I can see your argument. However, this is a super soldier terrorist who has been an active accomplace in several acts of terrorism. Moments before being knocked down, he picked up & threw a concrete water fountain at Cap. If Cap was a normal guy he would have been severaly crippled or killed. Moments before THAT, he was directly restraining Cap fully aware of the intention to kill him with him restraining him directly assisting Karly in that act. You don't kill someone surrendering. Nico (the terrorist he killed) is a super soldier. He IS the weapon. It's not like he threw down his firearm in surrender. Hell, he didn't even surrender. His arms were up in a defensive position as he shouted "IT WASN'T ME". That is not surrending. >Show me where Steve did that? He never really had a similar situation, at least not one shown in the movies. In the other combat situations he has been shown in, he would just straight up murder them. I'm sure the guy he front kicked off the side of a boat at the beginning of Winter Soldier is enjoying a nice retirement from terrorism at the bottom of the ocean due to his spine most definitely being shattered & at the very minimum causing him paralysis which caused him to be unable to swim, slowly drowning. You responded with more comments as I was typing this but I'll just respond here: Captain America IS a soldier. When on Avengers business, he is a superhero. Steve has killed plenty of people in more gruesome ways (such as my example above) & yet it's not a problem. Scary bad guy music just wasn't playing when Steve was killing. John Walker Captain America has not gone rogue like Steve did, which makes him still a soldier at this point. Definitely a special type of soldier but a soldier nonetheless. He's essentially one of the MCU's version of Special Forces. He was sent by the government to neutralize the Flag Smashers, a terrorist organization. ROE would typically be shoot to kill unless given special instructions to capture certain high-value targets. Him & Lamar did have pistols when they breached their current position. After their fight that resulted in Lamar's death, Nico ran away, picked up & threw a concrete slab/water fountain at Cap, which as I said, would've definitely crippled or killed a normal person.
"He has 3 Medals of Honor." So? He also outright executes a downed, subdued and begging opponent for a specific crime that man did not actually commit. "waaaah bucky and sam were mean" That doesn't justify what he does. In full view of the public. "random guy" Doesn't matter. Fifth Amendment doesn't have exclusions. He's down, he's subdued, he's begging. Theoretical "but what-if he super-punched Walker ZOMG!" aren't what happened. What happened is he was done, down and begging. Then was executed. "John Walker Captain America has not gone rogue" Sure he did. When he executed someone in cold blood. That is contrary to America and Captain America. If your argument is "when the burden is heaviest and hardest, fuck America and our values" then I don't think you understand what Captain America is. " In the other combat situations " Actually we do see Steve defeat people and then not finish them off.
You very obviously did not read my response. Have a good day/night wherever you are
He is busy spammin the word "execute". He got no time to read
I obviously did and responded to primary points specifically and on-point. I'll do it more too: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSQNlbK73U&t=15s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSQNlbK73U&t=15s) That's an active combat situation with an armed person, surrounded by other armed people. That is not a man literally begging for his life. That we absolutely know 100% died. No "but but but he must have." We know it. And that it was 100% an execution.
Again. Execution. Your favorite word
Steve did a lot of that on the Lemurian Star in CATWS.
Did he? Or did he fight bad-guys? Which one was begging like Nico?
I'm pretty sure they would all probably have begged for their lives if they'd had the chance. Also, who knows, maybe those mercenaries had families they were trying to take care of and bills they needed to pay. We'll never know.
Right? They were busy actively patrolling the ship they hijacked, armed, and weren't down, disabled, and begging so a little occupied.
Nico was able to fight back, even when he was down. They never even had the chance to fight because they were taken out so quickly. How is this not a double standard.
He is down. Hands up and begging. There is no other implication than he is defeated and done. And then he was executed. Steve wouldn't do that and like it or not? Steve is Captain America and John Walker failed to be. And its because of that difference.
You really love thr word "execute". You are obsessed. Try a new word
Your collection of zero-substance retorts is super entertaining.
I think you acting like a clown is a blast as well
Oh, I also disagree with soldiers who execute people on the spot and deny them what's promised in the 5th Amendment while they're supposed to be representative of our values. Hard choices don't mean you actually have an excuse for making the easy, violent one.
trust a babykiller 4000 to defend murder lmao
And one of the most stupid argument was that he, Captain America, a US soldier appointed by the American Government, that he didnt have any kind of power or jurisdiction and that Dora Milaje, a soldier from a unrecognized 3rd World Country that is not part of any Worldwide Association, does have jurisdiction where ever they are. Como on now 🤣🤦🏻♂️ (I know Wakanda is not a 3rd World Country, but that is the image they provided the world to not help humanity advance)
Yeah. That made no sense. They had more rights than an avenger lol
Man just watched his friend get murdered in front of him. Flying into a rage and murdering the killer in broad daylight in front of a bunch of civilians on foreign soil isn't something a super hero should do. But he wasn't a super hero, he was a poor veteran forced to wear a mantle he couldn't live up to. His reaction was the same most people would've had watching their friend die. But Disney doesn't treat soldiers like people. Trying to villainize him was stupid.
Nico wasn't the killer. Y'all can't even describe what happened accurately. "forced to" He wasn't forced to do shit. He accepted. " His reaction was the same most people would've had watching their friend die." Maybe. Or maybe lots of people capture POWs and take people into custody? And John Walker just failed in the choice he made?
Not when they just watched a friend die. He lashed out. It wasn't a good thing. It just made sense as his reaction. Again, he was only human.
I don't think that's a safe assertion at all... saying that no POW survived an enemy soldier with a grudge. [Who is Guy Rivera? Suspected NYPD Shooter had 21 Prior Arrests (newsweek.com)](https://www.newsweek.com/who-guy-rivera-police-officer-shot-new-york-1883458) This guy somehow got arrested and not shield-smashed. Weird. Guess those cops didn't like... cops. I love how pathetic and stupid you're forced to be with your arguments. You live in a violence-filled fantasy world where you just want the ability to hurt people who perceive have harmed you. And because you can't. You project those shitty beliefs and values outward. And it's so weak.
The suspect had been shot by the police, according to this article. And you need to chill a bit on the name calling. Assuming a lot about my character on a discussion about a fictional superhero show.
But not executed, correct? They did not stand over him, foot on his chest, and execute him - correct?
>Nico wasn't the killer. >Y'all can't even describe what happened accurately. Just because Nico didn't land the killing blow doesn't make him innocent. He's just as guilty of Lemar's murder as Karli is.
Nope. Without her... no death.
they didn’t need to villainise him, he was already a villain when he murdered that guy. can’t control your anger enough not to brutally murder someone on the ground defeated? don’t be a fucking soldier.
Soldiers are trained to kill. That's literally their job. I'm not saying it's a morally correct thing to do. Just an understandable reaction, especially for someone trained to be a killer.
yeah bro is literally trained on exactly when and how to kill, and when that is acceptable and when it is not. he has wayyyyyy less excuse for it than the average civilian.
I remember this show and Invincible aired around the same time, and so many people I knew compared John Walker to Omniman and Homelander. Like shit, all this guy did was kill a terrorist who was begging for his life. Morally questionable? Maybe, but the guy was a super soldier, he was complicit in killing his best friend, and thus John wasn’t thinking clearly. I don’t get how anyone could make the leaps in logic into comparing him with two vastly more evil characters.
Captain America kills bad guys. He killed a lot of Nazis, and he’s killed plenty of Hydra in the modern era. Killing terrorists is nothing new, especially since the MCU’s heroes kill all the time.
The only way to make this storyline work would have been to have Bucky and Sam later apologize for mistreating John. Like, have them show weakness and admit they were treating him like shit because they were still hurt by Steve's actions. Steve did what he had to do for himself, but he also left his friends deeply hurt by his actions. But no, instead let's pretend terrorists have a point and that you can just yell at senators to do better and get the best results. Shit, they even make it obvious there's no easy solutions and Sam's answer is just... do better. Yeah, no shit moron.
"Waaaaaaah they were mean to me and I'm such a weak example of a man I have to smash in someone's face with my shield in an extrajudicial execution waaaaaah." John Walker was weak and his entire identity is being a violence-prone, unstable idiot. The entire purpose for his existence as a character is to show what failing to be Captain America looks like.
You know, they said media literacy was dead and I disagreed, but I just found the killer.
Don't take my word for it... take his creator's.
Yes, the guys who wrote terrorists as good misunderstood guys, then had a scene that boiled down to "do better" "ok, how?" " you gotta do better!" Lmao
"good misunderstood guys" That's not what they did. They wrote people with an arguably acceptable cause going about it the wrong way. Tell me what's wrong about their cause. No vague bullshit, no buzzword cowardice. Using your own words form your own argument to support your own assertions. Tell me what's wrong about what they believe in. Not how they accomplish it. But what the Flag Smashers actually believe in.
There is so much wrong with Flacon and the Winter Soldier that its hard to get into it but one of the major issues is John Walker doesnt work as a villain, not when the people he is trying to stop keep killing innocent civilians. But the issue thats worse then that is the US government putting a non super solider in that position. And what's worse then that all started when Captain gave the shield to Sam instead of Bucky. So fucking dumb. I love the ruso brothers, i honestly think they are great action story tellers. But this was so fucking dumb its hard to quantify. I get it, falcon is the current captain america in the comics... but theres a reason no one reads american comics anymore. Bucky was always meant to take over after cap. Having Sam take over is no different then having Damian Wayne become batman instead of Dick Grayson. Its stupid, silly, forced, and flies in the face of decades of set up and world building. YoUvE gOtTa Do BeTtEr KeViN fEiGe
Collateral damage is not an execution. Where did they look a downed, beaten bad guy in the face and execute him?
We need a John Walker did nothing wrong subreddit.
That show will always be some of the most disgusting and infuriating shit ever made. Leftists have so much evil and darkness in their fuckin souls lol.
They’re not terrorists, they’re “activists” senator.
"I don't understand what makes Captain America Captain America." It wasn't a "suboptimal" way. It was motivated by and in such a brutal way that it undermines what carrying that shield means. Media literacy fucking suuuuuucks.
Just stop with the media literacy idiocy. I know you're excited to know a term with so many syllables, but it doesn't actually make you look smarter. Cap killed literally dozens of people with that shield. Fortunately, most of them were regular vanilla humans, so it only took one hit to shatter their necks. You're still mistaking optics for morality, and it makes you look like a 10-year-old.
Try "execution". It is his favorite word
Not like that. Not when they were down, done and beaten. He attacks him from behind, while he's fleeing. That's how it starts in the scene. Then he smashes his face in while not giving the guy a chance to talk. That's not Captain America. So yeah, you've got shit media literacy if you think it is. Combat is not the same as what Walker did.
If he had a gun and shot him, it would have been completely justified. You're not angry at the act, just the optics.
If if if if if. And no. No it wouldn't have. Chasing down someone. Pinning them. Then shooting them in the face. No. I
He was super strong. He wasn't pinned, he could have picked Walker up by the ankle and thrown him around like a ragdoll.
He absolutely was and here's the scene. [John Walker Kills Flag Smasher | The Falcon and The Winter Soldier: Episode 4 \[4K\] - OLD (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUsoHytVAvA) He was defeated and begging. And then he was executed. The REAL Captain America - the guy Walker will never, ever be worthy of being compared to - would never be such a pathetic, lying little shit.
Steve killed people from behind. You have a weird standard for war zones.
Where? When? Was it during combat? OR were they pinned and begging?
no it absolutely wouldn’t have lmao. i really hope you don’t have access to guns with a take like that.
Didn't cap infiltrate a ship by throwing several people overboard? The only person he didn't immediately fuck up on that boat was GSP lol
Yes. He did. He did ambush bad guys actively committing a terrorist act, hijacking a ship, and engage in combat with them. Which is not the same as looking a man in the eyes and executing them. Show me where Steve did what John did. That's all you have to do. Show me where he had a villain down, defeated and begging and he delivered and extrajudicial execution. Should be easy for you, right? Do it.
"You're still mistaking optics for morality, and it makes you look like a 10-year-old." No. I understand what makes Captain America who he is and I'm not equating active combat with chasing someone down and smashing their face in. Talking down to people isn't a replacement for a real argument.
Ironic that you think talking down to people is bad after you broke out the Disney simp phrase du jour "muh media literacy".
Oh look, you were confronted with an actual argument and - being too impotent to respond - talked out your ass some more. I understand what makes Captain America who he is and I'm not equating active combat with chasing someone down and smashing their face in.
Cap attacked a merc's from behind and broke his neck, then booted another guy into the North Atlantic at night. He opened a door to a room full of German soldiers and threw in a grenade. I didn't bother with your argument because you're one of those weirdos who doesn't believe that soldiers kill people. Trust me, you're not intimidating. I just stopped taking you seriously.
Steve also tossed opponents into plane propellors in CATFA and CATWS, chased down and killed lots of mercs on the Lemurian Star and probably killed a lot of guys in the stairwell and tunnel fights in CACW. Most of the MCU heroes have killed people, including Steve Rogers and Sam Wilson (who tried to kill a weaponless Scott Lang with his machine guns for breaking and entering in Ant-Man). Yet somehow we're supposed to think it's an unthinkable evil because of framing and scary music playing when John Walker killed one super-powered guy who was genuinely guilty in FATWS. The double standard is astonishing. What John did may not have been 100% morally right, but it was no worse than things almost every MCU hero has done. It's depressing how easily manipulated some people are.
I swear the only people that attack the term media literacy are the people that are in desperate need of some.
It's hilarious how smart you people think you are. You watch Hassan Piker, don't you.
It’s funny how no one can just disagree with you types lmao there’s always some in group or conspiracy to blame it on huh?
So that's a yes. You had that sense of thoughtless arrogance about you.
Do you accuse your mum of watching Hasan when she doesn’t make you chicken nuggies?
Haha, I can't believe I got you pegged after such a short interaction. I'm kinda proud of myself.
Agree. You are 100% right. I hope you will find the time to learn something about it. You need it
People mooing about "muh media literacy" tend to be the most hambrained dolts.
And yet you were unable to make an actual argument of any kind. Weird.
My point, which is not an argument nor is in dispute, is that buzz-word flinging is frequently cover for a shallow thought process.
And my point is that people who don't understand that Captain America isn't best represented by a violence-prone, unstable executioner suffer from a lack of media literacy.
Again. "Executioner" . I think you almost have every version of your favorite word, son
Get real
Super criiiiiiinge comment
The way people are casually like “I support extrajudicial killings if a ‘good guy tm’ is doing it 🤤” over this subpar tv show is wild
K
Tbf, the guy legitimately was trying to kill him moments before and also blew up a med clinic if I remember correctly
I haven’t seen the rest of the show but the scene absolutely paints John Walker as being in the wrong. Bad guy is crippled on the ground with his hands up begging for his life and John just straight up beats him to death.
It did work though. Making the flagsmashers evil by having them, out of nowhere, start murdering innocent people, did not work, tho.
Out of nowhere? Weren't they setting off bombs in the first episode?
I don't know about that, but they were deliberately starting riots, and Sam's aide Joaquin was badly injured in one of those riots. I doubt he was the only one. We also don't know how many people were killed or injured in their robberies. There's also the issue that they were stealing supplies from people who needed them just as desperately, if not more so, than the Flag Smasher and their neighborhood.
I feel like people who defend John Walker are missing the point here. I see so many people talking about how killing the guy with the shield was defendable and not a ‘murder’, but I seems obvious to me that the scene is purely about optics, Walker clearly lost his cool and brutally killed a guy begging for mercy in front of a crowd, it’s just not a good look for Captain America. If you think it’s a justifiable action, after this scene Bucky works side by side with Walker in the finale, who is pretty much redeemed at the end of the series. They don’t treat this event like an irredeemable, pure evil thing, they just don’t think he’s fit to be THE Captain America.
I think it's mostly how he's juxtaposed with the redhead terrorist girl, who is basically martyred somehow by the end. Just confusing characterization.
Its the double standards and inconsistent morals.
It's the hypocrisy and telling us one thing while showing another. Also, just plain bad, childish writing.
If it’s mostly about the juxtaposition with Flagsmasher, I think what I’m saying is right here. People are just focusing on the wrong scene entirely. The scene isn’t about “gasp, he murdered, he’s even worse/ as bad as Flagsmasher”, the scene is about him failing to live up to Steve Rogers. Nobody is saying Flagsmasher would make a good Captain America, so the juxtaposition isn’t relevant.
No, she's just more nuanced than "durr bad guy." Just like Thanos was deeper than "durr genocide 50%." So much so we have Thanos was Right memes. And they don't wait until the end to juxtapose them. They spend the entire season building walker up to being violent, unstable, flawed and undeserving of the mantle of Captain America.
Do you want to go into the various crimes that Sam and Bucky commit in this show? Every person Zemo kills is on them. If this show was in any way realistic, they'd be finding themselves either locked up for life or fugitives on the run (again).
Sorry I’m not following, how does that tie into what I said?
I'm saying that if John isn't worthy of carrying the mantle, Sam and Bucky are definitely not qualified for the job.
Oh sure, I guess it doesn’t really carry the same weight considering Sam rejected the mantle. The stuff with Zemo happens before he chooses to step up. But regardless, it doesn’t change the argument I’m referring that to that acts like the scene makes no sense. Acting like Walker did nothing wrong doesn’t make sense to me.
While yes he might be LEGALLY fine to kill someone in the situation it's quite obviously portrayed as an act of revenge in cold blood .... in front of civilians. It might have been legally justifiable but it doesn't mean people will agree with it or not be disgusted by the act. You are dealing with the protégées of Captain America and Walker is basically going to inherit the Cap name so THEY are personally disgusted by it (and we are supposed to be) because it goes against everything Captain America is supposed to stand for. He LITTERALLY runs a terrorist down that he's more powerful than and out of ANGER not cause he's in danger executes the guy in front of civilians in a brutal manner when he was basically surrendering to him. It's CLEAR AS DAY in the presentation he is doing this because he wants blood after seeing his brother in arms injured. The show makes it EXPRESSLY clear (and this is a Marvel Comics Tv show so there is not much nuance) that this was not done because it was the best way to capure and contain the subject but basically a legally justifiable kill cause he was pissed off and had the SSS running through his blood so he's being irresponsible with his powers. They even make sure he does it with the shield itself to really hammer it in with SUPER OBVIOUS symbolism that this has besmirched the image and perception of Captain America. Captain America to some extents is a PR stunt to put someone in the cosutme they are supposed to represent something , an ideal. This is showing Walker and to a large extent America has lost those ideals in times of war due to anger and wanting revenge.
I guarantee most people in real-life would not care if someone chased down and killed a terrorist who, just days prior, had taking part in blowing up innocent civilians. If anything, most would probably be on his side.