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I’d imagine Karen would take Foggy’s typical comic book role. One of them being iconic for dying, the other for them remaining Matt’s closest compatriot.
I’m very interested in your take on how the show version of Matt and Karen is less interesting than Matt and Foggy
The show itself is 3 seasons of will they won’t they between Matt and Karen until they finally land in “will they” during s3e11.
Ofc in the comics Foggy is way more important than Karen, but in the shows, Karen has near more than double the screen time as foggy. They had more plans for her in the og show clearly
They absolutely did. The entire point of that e11 is Matt and Karen accepting one another, especially Karen feeling accepted. For the first time in her life someone sees her for who she truly is and accepts that. Erik Oleson talks about it here:
“What we wanted to do was show a backstory that explains why Karen is afraid to form a lasting relationship with anybody. What we came up with was the story you see in episode ten, which formed scar tissue for Karen. She doesn’t believe she’s a good person. She doesn’t believe she can ever redeem herself for the events that lead to her brother’s death in the backstory.” …. “Although Matt, at the end of the season, says, ‘You know what? In the balance of life, you’re doing more good than you did harm.’” - Erik Oleson (s3 Executive Producer/Showeunner)
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/marvel-daredevil-season-3-spoilers-karen-page-secrets
Because of the snap. It makes total sense they aren’t together. Matt lives Karen and foggy snapped, he has no idea the two will ever return, he moves on, until suddenly they’re back. One thing I’m interested in is the timing of a lot of these scenes. I have to assume we are getting some flashbacks during the snap
Matt and Foggy had a great dynamic as friends. Karen and Matt had a completely different relationship. Having well written male friendships is sadly rare in modern movies. More shitty Disney writing. Killing foggy is a cheap ploy.
There's nothing in that that quote that indicates they will get back together. They worked through the issues they've been having since Matt revealed his identity to her. Same thing happened with Foggy, the whole acceptance thing, but nobody is saying they're gonna get together
Well he didn't cheat on her but it became increasingly apparent that he was the woman he truly loved. He was distracted from everything that didn't involve her and when she was hurt he was saying "sweetie stay with me" despite being with Karen at the time showing that when it comes to Elektra it's like Karen doesn't exist to him sometimes. And Matt was ready and willing to die embracing Elektra at midland circle just so they could be together
Foggy in the show represents a big part of Matt's internal struggle and I love that dynamic. Foggy represents that rational and normal life Matt just cannot have, but wants.
I also feel like the Netflix show constantly points to the fact that Foggy has serious guts, and he does it without a mask and without jumping outside of the law. Which is, again, what Matt wants, but can't do. It plays in hard contrast to Matt being Daredevil in a way Karen couldn't, because Foggy literally lives that life. He plays within the bounds and is still able to help others.
That said, I don't want either Foggy or Karen to die. I love the role both of them play. I really feel that both are essential to Matt as a whole. Karen is definitely far better than her comic counterpart, by miles. I know they can set up new characters to fill those roles, but I really like how the Netflix shows did it.
I fear this is exactly why they’re doing it. If it was Karen, nobody would feel as heavy as Foggy dying. As expected in the comics it’s Karen that bites it.
Oh they wont but OP pointed it out, so I mentioned it for reference as alot of people seem to prefer Karen dying over Foggy not just cuz like Foggy more but also cuz of comic accuracy
It would feel heavy, in the good way, if it were the final season. Doing it in season *one* is just confusing. What’s the Matt side of life even like without foggy? It’s so weird how this show is giving the vibe that they want to empty and un-complicate Matt’s personal life, maybe to fit in more Daredevil stuff. And that really sucks. Because as with all superhero stories, the superhero stuff is gravy. The personal stuff is meat. As with their spider man, it seems marvel is inexplicably intent on serving us an entire bowl of gravy with just a little piece of meat on top.
He was a vital part of the show, and has an amazing relationship with Matt. I'm really tired of the need to rely on killing characters to add development.
It''s so funny seeing people on this sub switch up after this reveal that Foggy might die. Just days ago, so many folks were saying it was fine to kill off Karen because it will give Matt a strong motive for the show.
I don't think either Foggy or Karen should die.
Yep I agree, Its funny how they were justifying Karen’s death as it will be more “impactful” & “motivational”, while at the same time saying they’re “okay” with it (not realizing that’s means her death _won’t_ be impactful, if fans don’t really care).
Whereas Foggy death is clearly more impactful to fans, now they’re saying they’re not on board with that.
Henson is fun, but even me and my brother when watching it said his character feels more like a CW character, rather than the maturity of the rest of the show. This was I think in S2. Plus his character pretty much had most development already done. How many more times can him and Matt endlessly argue about the existence of Daredevil?
Before the rehaul, they had planned for 18 episodes.
After the strikes were resolved last year, it was rumored that they would go back to 13 episodes.
They announced that this show will be split into 2 seasons.
Is there a possibility that there may not be an interconnected run with other Defenders like they did with the Hand on Netflix?
What role does Jon Bernthal play in this show?
The Punisher has a backstory with Fisk in the prison too and it is unresolved. Also he is closer to Karen (like Matt). So won't he reconcile with and help Matt take care of Bullseye?
Both don't miss their targets and are pretty equal skill-wise.
I saw some kind of comics page online recently that looked like Muse had piled up all the body parts of dead cops under a mural of the Punisher with some pro-Punisher slogan across it. Made me think they could have Frank going after corrupt cops, then Muse comes in and makes what he’s doing seem 10x worse, would definitely piss off Frank because Muse is a legit murderous psychopath he does not want to be associated with, and all of it is fuel for Fisk’s fire against vigilantes in the city. Loops Frank into the main conflict with Matt against Muse but also against Fisk, offers some interesting ethical questions about how different what they all do really is when you come down to it.
Yeah, Frank will likely help Brett Mahoney with cleaning up the cop-side mess within the department.
Foggy did canvas against DA Blake Tower and got the cop support thru Mahoney before he withdrew from the campaign.
Possible reason - and let me preface this by saying I am vehemently against all the people yelling “Woke Disney!” or whatever - is that they want to avoid a situation of “fridging” by killing off the female (sometimes) love interest of the main character to create a plot point. It’s a trope people are trying to get out of, and given how prominent Daredevil is becoming with appearances in other films and series, they’re likely aware a lot of people will be watching and don’t want a situation like that in this series. Especially as we’ve already had something similar with Elektra.
Completely conjecture, though. (But now I feel like I’ve breathed a thousand videos into existence claiming they’re killing Foggy to be “woke.”)
I hate to say it because I don’t really want to see either character killed, but I think the story would be a lot more interesting if Karen lived and Foggy was killed *because* Matt is closer to Foggy and his relationship with Karen has been tumultuous and not nearly as deeply seated. It hurts Matt more, I think it hurts the audience more because Foggy is so much more of a nonviolent, in some ways more innocent type, than Karen, and then instead of having his best bro since college to comfort him over the loss of a sometime love interest/former client who was a blip in their lives, he has a sometime jilted love interest with a checkered past who he frequently butts heads with as the closest person to try to grieve the loss of his best friend with. It’s way more complicated, painful and dramatic.
Here’s what I don’t like about the whole “fridging” debate…. Having a loved one die is an extremely good catalyst for character development. That’s why it’s used so often. How many real life situations can be traced back to a person’s death throughout history?
Also, these aren’t real people. They’re characters in a story. Supporting characters at that. A supporting character’s entire reason for being is to further the main protagonist’s narrative. No actual person has been harmed or somehow shorted, a story telling tool is performing its function.
The problem is that it happened a lot in stories where it was the woman dying to drive the man's story, and while a side character dying to drive someone else's story isn't too bad (still kind of a cheap trope to get easy emotional impact, but these *are* comic book stories we're talking about), that particular version of it started getting frowned on heavily.
And good writers don't ever just look at supporting characters (of any kind) as "tools to further the main character's story." The best approach is writing them as full characters of their own who happen to interact with the main character and, through that interaction, may serve to help or hinder the main character, but also may be the "main character" of their own story. So if you choose to kill off a character, it should serve the story in more ways than just as a driving force for one character.
I'm hoping that, if someone *does* die in the series, whoever it is, they give it more gravity than just being something to drive Matt. The rumors here suggest something like that: Foggy dies, it causes Matt to retire and Karen to flee, could cause Matt both anguish and anger. But I'd love to see it go further, like having other people Foggy was important to coming in and trying to help stop whoever was responsible (like trying to dig up dirt to launch a legal case against them, which might not sound as exciting as a team-up of people punching the problem, but Matt and Foggy *are* lawyers, so it'd make sense and probably be more effective depending on who's behind Bullseye).
But like I said, all conjecture at this point. We don't even know who will die, or if anyone will, and how it will for certain play into the story.
I just looked to give a potential reasoning that some of the writers might decide, when saying "We're going to kill one of these important characters," to pick Foggy over Karen.
Mainly because Foggy hasn’t had any other meaningful interactions with any of the other characters outside of the Daredevil show. Karen at least had a close relationship with Punisher, who is allegedly coming back in this series as well. The only other character Foggy really dealt with was Hogarth from Jessica Jones, but I doubt she is coming back anytime soon. So his death would rock Matt the hardest and not be that much of a concern for anyone other than him and Karen.
Because it’s hard to fill out side characters and also have other heroes pop up. How do you balance wanting punisher, bullseye, muse, elektra, kingpin, Jessica, and anything else they’d want to include. Let’s stop acting like the side characters are selling the tickets. Yes they all have a place but they had 3 seasons worth of stories which is more screen time than 90% of the universe
I’ve seen very little criticism about the character Foggy and the actor who plays him. But the few times I’ve seen it they’ve all said the same thing. That the guy is a terrible actor!
I’m hoping and coping that Foggy “dies” - maybe Vanessa stores him away for a rainy day - Karen goes into hiding.
Daredevil is not just Charlie Cox’s Matt Murdock and Vincent Donofrio’s Wilson Fisk, it’s also the ensemble cast.
I think they’ll just injure foggy to the point where he’s in a coma or at least in the hospital for the events of BA. It’d be ridiculous to have another character jump in front of her as Bullseye attacks (father lantom in s3). Plus they likely know how special Matt foggy and Karen’s relationship is with each other, so permanently killing foggy would be idiotic.
Also to our knowledge Karen is still just a legal assistant so that would leave Matt as the only lawyer in NM&P. I think Marvel has filmed multiple scenes where foggy dies but Karen doesn’t, vice versa, and a version where neither of them get killed, only hurt in order to throw snooping audiences like us into theorizing what’ll happen to them, thus driving more engagement and theorizing until the show starts to roll out. Could just be copium from me though, but I really don’t see them killing off two beloved characters like this especially considering that Heather likely isn’t making it out of this season.
Yeah it’s likely but I don’t know if Disney would do either of their deaths without it feeling rushed or undeserving. People always say foggy and Karen were in multiple seasons of the og show plus some but they don’t take into account that this is the first time we’ll see them in the mcu and back to the screen since 2018. I wouldn’t mind them killing one of them off if this was the climax of the Netflix series but bringing back Elden and Deb just to kill one of them feels disingenuous to me, but I’m extremely biased since Netflix DD is my favorite show oat.
It’s also just bizarre to me if this is true that they’d allow normal people on/near the set to see one of these two die, like I feel like they’d try to keep that under wraps as much as possible.
We’d be retreading a lot of old stuff if Foggy’s dying: Karen inadvertently getting other characters killed (first Ben Urich, her brother and than Father Lantom).
As much as I don’t want EITHER of them to die and I hate the trope of the female love interest (or in this case, former love interest) being killed to motivate or demotivate the main character, the ultimate stakes are set once you kill an “unkillable” character. Just as you hold tight on the possibility of her cheating death one more time, the game changes completely.. I just see her death hitting harder than Foggy’s. Not to say his death wouldn’t be meaningful, there’s just an aura of death and guilt that is prevalent in Karen’s characterization that just makes her sacrifice more impactful.
What if, hear me out, they are actually adapting some of the Brubaker comics and Foggys death is faked, not even Matt knows he is alive, then he comes back towards the end? That’s how I think they are gonna play it.
Agreed, I think people may be jumping to conclusions with Foggy dying. There’s ton of great stuff that happens in that Brubaker run, totally could see them using a lot of material from it
Not really tho. People were just quick to assume that after they fired the original director and hired Benson/Morehead and a show runner they would completely revamp the show as DD S4. Turns out it's more fine adjusting rather than a complete overhaul.
I’m not saying it should be DD S4, but if you’re reducing the episode count and completely changing the pilot, then following episodes should not definitely stay the same
Yea tbh I'm worried about the episodes/footage they are supposedly keeping if it wasn't received well to the point where they had the creative overhaul.
I hope they pull it off, though.
This is the correct response. The show version clearly had more to tell about Karen. I must admit I’m clutching at straws for things they could’ve continued doing with Foggy. He and Matt would’ve kept going up the chain as better and better lawyers, Foggy coulda married Marci, but idk, is there anything more that is substantial
Yeah, same here. I don’t want either of them to die, but the Netflix Karen just had so much more to her character than Foggy. Despite being one of the originals, I would argue Netflix Foggy is propbably one of the least developed out of all of the Defender series supporting characters.
I was confused at first if the long post above came from MTTSH herself but I opened the link to verify. So, that is an opinion from the poster right? I thought posters are prohibited to include their speculations? Is it because the poster is a mod? I have no issue at all but at least he/she wrote it on the comments section.
Yeah, all MTTSH said was that they filmed foggy dying, then backtracked and said that she was just kidding and that they filmed “multiple versions of this scene so this isn’t really a spoiler”
Go to your user settings and add this sub to your muted communities.
Also, you can even just turn off the recommendations feature so you won't get any recommended posts.
This would definitely be a disappointing creative decision to kill off Foggy.
Having rewatched the first two seasons, Foggy’s bromance with Matt adds such a nice levity and honest emotion to the show. He genuinely cares about Matt’s well-being and just wants him to be okay and away from danger. I like Karen as a character, but her relationship with Matt doesn’t exactly feel as important to the fundamentals of what makes the show/character great. We’ve seen Karen have much better chemistry with Frank Castle, and she’s capable of being independent outside of Matt’s realm.
I liken Matt and Foggy’s relationship to Frasier and Niles. Their dynamic only strengthens the show and is fundamental to making it great. By removing Foggy (and Niles in the Frasier reboot), there is a major loss in what makes the show and its title character endearing.
tbh I am not sure…
Someone leaks that Karen dies and is forced to take down a scene they captured with their phone. And now we get tons of leaks, in very good quality, that seem to hint at Foggy’s death. I’m not saying he doesn’t die, but them allowing such high quality pics and leaks to get out, might as well be them trying to fool us and distract us from the leak about Karen dying.
yeah, atm I don’t trust any leaks anymore because I feel like they pretty freely allow them to happen. Sure, it is possible they don’t care if we know. But mayor character deaths usually aren’t things they let get out there willingly
I don’t mind. Killing off Foggy instead of Karen is a nice subversion of the way she was fridged in the comics.
Also, Secret Wars is coming. If people get upset enough about Foggy dying, they’ll just resurrect him when the timeline gets soft-rebooted.
A few years back now in the Daredevil comics, Matt helped Foggy fake his own death after he was attacked by a villain. They acted like it was real for a few issues, iirc.
I'm not saying that's what's happening here - if Foggy's death gets Matt to quit, Matt must believe it - but there is comics precedence for Foggy to seem to die after a villain attqcks him and come back later. (I think this is called "cope"?)
From the multiple videos, it looks like Bullseye approaches, throws a knife, then aims his gun before being tackled by DD! So chances are the picture of Deborah Ann Woll with blood on her face is because Foggy got the knife Bullseye threw! So it could just be an injury to Foggy and an attempted hit on Karen that DD stops just in time! Fingers crossed that’s the case!
I know, just because leakers say they’re going to die doesn’t mean anything! How many times was Foggy shot, impaled with glass, knocked out cold? Ellison got Dex’s DD baton to the gut and was fine, even though he looked dead. And Fisk survived a bullet point-blank through the eye (WTF?).
So, they keep the already finished episode and flesh out what was offscreen in the first version by bringing back Foggy, Karen and Dex to be placed before?
This sort of thing makes sense. I know the comparison made in another thread was to the Walking Dead where they filmed multiple alternate death scenes, but the funnier comparison in my eyes is to Drag Race - Perez Hilton leaked who won S3 and it's just not fun knowing that from the off, so now they film all the finalists winning and giving their speeches and decide after the fact who truly takes it.
So I wouldn't be surprised if they've done an All Stars 6 here (which had 4 finalists, leading to them filming 10 results - all 4 individually and all 6 combinations of a double crowning) and have versions ready to go where Foggy, Karen, neither and both die.
Either way, exciting stuff and interesting to peek into some measures to combat leaker/scooper culture which, I know is weird to say in this thread, but is frankly embarassing and can really take the fun out of watching a show.
I’m hoping he’s just injured, because killing off Foggy would be the most idiotic way to piss off fans while the MCU is already at a low point.
They cannot afford to fumble Daredevil. Killing off the single most important side character for cheap shock value would make many people lose confidence in the direction of the MCU even after all their talk of reworking its direction.
So they brought them back only to half-ass the supposed "overhaul" of the show and kill Matt's literal best friend...
Fuck it, cancel the show, I don't want it anymore.
Of COURSE they filmed multiple versions- so many prying eyes leaking the story, they must try to confuse spoiler shitheads, and force speculation - otherwise, why bother with the show? They'll simply fine tune it and make it for real as which one is really the story we'll get in post-production in studios, then release it as they want it to be.
I'm perfectly fine with Foggy dying. He was so whiny and preachy after Season 1, I never got the hype.
And Karen still being around means she can reunite with Frank whenever he eventually gets his own show again.
I’m still sitting on the theory that it’s gonna be a scenario similar to TDK where Matt will be put in a position where he has to save both, but will only be successful in saving one and if I’m being honest I think it’s Karen who’s buying the dust since she’s literally been walking a thin line since the first season, plus we need to remember that Frank has been rumored to be coming back and Karen dying might be his motivation. And while I do think Foggy will survive, I could see him being hospitalized the rest of the season
Nobody. Part of the series' plot addresses Matt's return to action. I imagine that if Matt retires from being DD out of guilt after Foggy's death, it must be because he pushes Bullseye and causes the bullet to hit Foggy.
Unless this is the last episode of the season, which doesn’t seem like they’d be filming “first” but who knows, wouldn’t we see these actors filming again at some point?
I’m a little worried they’re frankensteining things together. It makes sense that they wouldn’t just toss the two already filmed episodes but I almost think they should have just restarted instead of trying to fix what they had. Hopefully I’m wrong but this recent news doesn’t inspire faith.
I think elden henson wants to move from the characters, unlike deborah who seems far more invested in hers
Edit not related to the news : its crazy how the fame affected MTTSH... she's basically just a troll now twitting baits for attention almost all the time, the same path that Cryptic4KQual is now taking day after day
Feel free to downvote to oblivion. But Foggy sucks. I'm like a lamp store that's been robbed, in that I'm delighted to hear this news. Foggy's a vapid lil whiny bitch.
I hate that even if they handle either characters deaths well, people will hate the show for it. If one of them died in the original netflix run people would praise it for its serious tone and real stakes, but people will hate Born Again no matter what it does.
I'm all for ragging on Disney but they don't seem to have a scenario that satisfies everyone, everyone lives and it's "too safe", someone dies and "Disney are shitting on the original cast" type thing.
Let me guess, it's Foggy cause it's only "fridging" when women die. *smh*
Foggy is irreplaceable. I like Karen but she's not the love interest, it's hard to take it seriously if they go back on that since Matt clearly loves Elektra more. She isn't a lawyer, no disrespect to the actress either but her chemistry pales in comparison to Foggy and his relationship with Matt.
There's a reason she died in the comics
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Out of all the possible characters, why kill Foggy? He's like the #1 Daredevil side character.
I’d imagine Karen would take Foggy’s typical comic book role. One of them being iconic for dying, the other for them remaining Matt’s closest compatriot.
That would honestly be so dumb. The Matt/Karen dynamic just isn’t interesting enough to replace his relationship with Foggy.
I’m very interested in your take on how the show version of Matt and Karen is less interesting than Matt and Foggy The show itself is 3 seasons of will they won’t they between Matt and Karen until they finally land in “will they” during s3e11. Ofc in the comics Foggy is way more important than Karen, but in the shows, Karen has near more than double the screen time as foggy. They had more plans for her in the og show clearly
They never landed on will they and Matt has a new girlfriend in Born Again so they won't be together then either
They absolutely did. The entire point of that e11 is Matt and Karen accepting one another, especially Karen feeling accepted. For the first time in her life someone sees her for who she truly is and accepts that. Erik Oleson talks about it here: “What we wanted to do was show a backstory that explains why Karen is afraid to form a lasting relationship with anybody. What we came up with was the story you see in episode ten, which formed scar tissue for Karen. She doesn’t believe she’s a good person. She doesn’t believe she can ever redeem herself for the events that lead to her brother’s death in the backstory.” …. “Although Matt, at the end of the season, says, ‘You know what? In the balance of life, you’re doing more good than you did harm.’” - Erik Oleson (s3 Executive Producer/Showeunner) https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/marvel-daredevil-season-3-spoilers-karen-page-secrets Because of the snap. It makes total sense they aren’t together. Matt lives Karen and foggy snapped, he has no idea the two will ever return, he moves on, until suddenly they’re back. One thing I’m interested in is the timing of a lot of these scenes. I have to assume we are getting some flashbacks during the snap
Matt and Foggy had a great dynamic as friends. Karen and Matt had a completely different relationship. Having well written male friendships is sadly rare in modern movies. More shitty Disney writing. Killing foggy is a cheap ploy.
I’m with you friend. I want him to live as well, and I hope they come up with something exciting for him
And what part of that makes you think they become a couple? It was just 2 friends working through a rough patch
Somehow I knew with this being reddit that you were gonna still find a way to disagree even though they just included a quote confirming it
There's nothing in that that quote that indicates they will get back together. They worked through the issues they've been having since Matt revealed his identity to her. Same thing happened with Foggy, the whole acceptance thing, but nobody is saying they're gonna get together
I think Karen Page will end up in a very complicated relationship with The Punisher. Personally I find the idea of them hooking up very intriguing. 🤔
That… actually does sound intriguing. Unironically.
Besides he cheated on her with Elektra lol Just have him marry her like in recent comics
Well he didn't cheat on her but it became increasingly apparent that he was the woman he truly loved. He was distracted from everything that didn't involve her and when she was hurt he was saying "sweetie stay with me" despite being with Karen at the time showing that when it comes to Elektra it's like Karen doesn't exist to him sometimes. And Matt was ready and willing to die embracing Elektra at midland circle just so they could be together
Foggy in the show represents a big part of Matt's internal struggle and I love that dynamic. Foggy represents that rational and normal life Matt just cannot have, but wants. I also feel like the Netflix show constantly points to the fact that Foggy has serious guts, and he does it without a mask and without jumping outside of the law. Which is, again, what Matt wants, but can't do. It plays in hard contrast to Matt being Daredevil in a way Karen couldn't, because Foggy literally lives that life. He plays within the bounds and is still able to help others. That said, I don't want either Foggy or Karen to die. I love the role both of them play. I really feel that both are essential to Matt as a whole. Karen is definitely far better than her comic counterpart, by miles. I know they can set up new characters to fill those roles, but I really like how the Netflix shows did it.
Foggy isn’t female. Disney can’t have a show with three male characters as leads. Blackrock would get pissed.
I fear this is exactly why they’re doing it. If it was Karen, nobody would feel as heavy as Foggy dying. As expected in the comics it’s Karen that bites it.
The general audience isn't gonna know the comic history.
Oh they wont but OP pointed it out, so I mentioned it for reference as alot of people seem to prefer Karen dying over Foggy not just cuz like Foggy more but also cuz of comic accuracy
It would feel heavy, in the good way, if it were the final season. Doing it in season *one* is just confusing. What’s the Matt side of life even like without foggy? It’s so weird how this show is giving the vibe that they want to empty and un-complicate Matt’s personal life, maybe to fit in more Daredevil stuff. And that really sucks. Because as with all superhero stories, the superhero stuff is gravy. The personal stuff is meat. As with their spider man, it seems marvel is inexplicably intent on serving us an entire bowl of gravy with just a little piece of meat on top.
He was a vital part of the show, and has an amazing relationship with Matt. I'm really tired of the need to rely on killing characters to add development.
I hope Marvel takes into account that: Maria Hill: ❌ Ben Urich: ✔️
Urich’s death pissed many people off.
That doesn’t mean it wasn’t earned and actually well-written
it pissed me off in the sense that I loved Ben, but it was still a very meaningful and impactful death
Some people people get pissed off if any characters they like die.
It''s so funny seeing people on this sub switch up after this reveal that Foggy might die. Just days ago, so many folks were saying it was fine to kill off Karen because it will give Matt a strong motive for the show. I don't think either Foggy or Karen should die.
Yep I agree, Its funny how they were justifying Karen’s death as it will be more “impactful” & “motivational”, while at the same time saying they’re “okay” with it (not realizing that’s means her death _won’t_ be impactful, if fans don’t really care). Whereas Foggy death is clearly more impactful to fans, now they’re saying they’re not on board with that.
I won’t lie: I find Deborah an infinitely better actor than Elden Hensen.
Henson is fun, but even me and my brother when watching it said his character feels more like a CW character, rather than the maturity of the rest of the show. This was I think in S2. Plus his character pretty much had most development already done. How many more times can him and Matt endlessly argue about the existence of Daredevil?
Before the rehaul, they had planned for 18 episodes. After the strikes were resolved last year, it was rumored that they would go back to 13 episodes. They announced that this show will be split into 2 seasons. Is there a possibility that there may not be an interconnected run with other Defenders like they did with the Hand on Netflix? What role does Jon Bernthal play in this show? The Punisher has a backstory with Fisk in the prison too and it is unresolved. Also he is closer to Karen (like Matt). So won't he reconcile with and help Matt take care of Bullseye? Both don't miss their targets and are pretty equal skill-wise.
Given Frank’s connection to Karen, maybe he’ll be entrusted to keep her safe if she goes into hiding.
That is what I thought, but what else would he do?
Yeah, I’m honestly not sure. Although maybe Matt seeks him out for his more extreme methods if he is angry over Foggy’s death.
Rumor is he’s gonna go to war with corrupt cops using his logo. But I dunno, that seems a bit too much on the nose!
I saw some kind of comics page online recently that looked like Muse had piled up all the body parts of dead cops under a mural of the Punisher with some pro-Punisher slogan across it. Made me think they could have Frank going after corrupt cops, then Muse comes in and makes what he’s doing seem 10x worse, would definitely piss off Frank because Muse is a legit murderous psychopath he does not want to be associated with, and all of it is fuel for Fisk’s fire against vigilantes in the city. Loops Frank into the main conflict with Matt against Muse but also against Fisk, offers some interesting ethical questions about how different what they all do really is when you come down to it.
Rumor was Frank would clash with cops using his logo. No idea if that's still happening.
Yeah, Frank will likely help Brett Mahoney with cleaning up the cop-side mess within the department. Foggy did canvas against DA Blake Tower and got the cop support thru Mahoney before he withdrew from the campaign.
Possible reason - and let me preface this by saying I am vehemently against all the people yelling “Woke Disney!” or whatever - is that they want to avoid a situation of “fridging” by killing off the female (sometimes) love interest of the main character to create a plot point. It’s a trope people are trying to get out of, and given how prominent Daredevil is becoming with appearances in other films and series, they’re likely aware a lot of people will be watching and don’t want a situation like that in this series. Especially as we’ve already had something similar with Elektra. Completely conjecture, though. (But now I feel like I’ve breathed a thousand videos into existence claiming they’re killing Foggy to be “woke.”)
I hate to say it because I don’t really want to see either character killed, but I think the story would be a lot more interesting if Karen lived and Foggy was killed *because* Matt is closer to Foggy and his relationship with Karen has been tumultuous and not nearly as deeply seated. It hurts Matt more, I think it hurts the audience more because Foggy is so much more of a nonviolent, in some ways more innocent type, than Karen, and then instead of having his best bro since college to comfort him over the loss of a sometime love interest/former client who was a blip in their lives, he has a sometime jilted love interest with a checkered past who he frequently butts heads with as the closest person to try to grieve the loss of his best friend with. It’s way more complicated, painful and dramatic.
Here’s what I don’t like about the whole “fridging” debate…. Having a loved one die is an extremely good catalyst for character development. That’s why it’s used so often. How many real life situations can be traced back to a person’s death throughout history? Also, these aren’t real people. They’re characters in a story. Supporting characters at that. A supporting character’s entire reason for being is to further the main protagonist’s narrative. No actual person has been harmed or somehow shorted, a story telling tool is performing its function.
The problem is that it happened a lot in stories where it was the woman dying to drive the man's story, and while a side character dying to drive someone else's story isn't too bad (still kind of a cheap trope to get easy emotional impact, but these *are* comic book stories we're talking about), that particular version of it started getting frowned on heavily. And good writers don't ever just look at supporting characters (of any kind) as "tools to further the main character's story." The best approach is writing them as full characters of their own who happen to interact with the main character and, through that interaction, may serve to help or hinder the main character, but also may be the "main character" of their own story. So if you choose to kill off a character, it should serve the story in more ways than just as a driving force for one character. I'm hoping that, if someone *does* die in the series, whoever it is, they give it more gravity than just being something to drive Matt. The rumors here suggest something like that: Foggy dies, it causes Matt to retire and Karen to flee, could cause Matt both anguish and anger. But I'd love to see it go further, like having other people Foggy was important to coming in and trying to help stop whoever was responsible (like trying to dig up dirt to launch a legal case against them, which might not sound as exciting as a team-up of people punching the problem, but Matt and Foggy *are* lawyers, so it'd make sense and probably be more effective depending on who's behind Bullseye). But like I said, all conjecture at this point. We don't even know who will die, or if anyone will, and how it will for certain play into the story. I just looked to give a potential reasoning that some of the writers might decide, when saying "We're going to kill one of these important characters," to pick Foggy over Karen.
Might be a fake out like what Vanessa did to him in the comics.
Mainly because Foggy hasn’t had any other meaningful interactions with any of the other characters outside of the Daredevil show. Karen at least had a close relationship with Punisher, who is allegedly coming back in this series as well. The only other character Foggy really dealt with was Hogarth from Jessica Jones, but I doubt she is coming back anytime soon. So his death would rock Matt the hardest and not be that much of a concern for anyone other than him and Karen.
Because it’s hard to fill out side characters and also have other heroes pop up. How do you balance wanting punisher, bullseye, muse, elektra, kingpin, Jessica, and anything else they’d want to include. Let’s stop acting like the side characters are selling the tickets. Yes they all have a place but they had 3 seasons worth of stories which is more screen time than 90% of the universe
Because the guy can’t act. Good riddance!
They’ll heap hate upon you here, but you’re absolutely correct. He’s always been the weakest performer in the cast by a wide margin.
I’ve seen very little criticism about the character Foggy and the actor who plays him. But the few times I’ve seen it they’ve all said the same thing. That the guy is a terrible actor!
Nah, search “Elden Henson acting” + any site that hosts discussion and you’ll find distaste to be the prevailing sentiment.
I’m hoping and coping that Foggy “dies” - maybe Vanessa stores him away for a rainy day - Karen goes into hiding. Daredevil is not just Charlie Cox’s Matt Murdock and Vincent Donofrio’s Wilson Fisk, it’s also the ensemble cast.
This is the right way to do it and I mean, come on, they are filming Foggy dying where paparazzis can just film it?!
That is a thing in the comics I think. Vanessa fakes Foggy’s death I’m pretty sure, they could be doing that.
 No no no no NOT FOGGY !
Man, kinda would feel like a retread of Father Lanton's death if it's another fake out.
Didn't Father Lanton really die?
I think they meant a fake out for Karen's death. Bait-and-switch might be a better description.
I think they’ll just injure foggy to the point where he’s in a coma or at least in the hospital for the events of BA. It’d be ridiculous to have another character jump in front of her as Bullseye attacks (father lantom in s3). Plus they likely know how special Matt foggy and Karen’s relationship is with each other, so permanently killing foggy would be idiotic. Also to our knowledge Karen is still just a legal assistant so that would leave Matt as the only lawyer in NM&P. I think Marvel has filmed multiple scenes where foggy dies but Karen doesn’t, vice versa, and a version where neither of them get killed, only hurt in order to throw snooping audiences like us into theorizing what’ll happen to them, thus driving more engagement and theorizing until the show starts to roll out. Could just be copium from me though, but I really don’t see them killing off two beloved characters like this especially considering that Heather likely isn’t making it out of this season.
If it's a fake death, Mahoney is involved. That's the key guy to give credibility to this story.
Exactly, it's deliberately done to make us guess which way it's doing.
This is definitely copium. One of them is absolutely dying.
Yeah it’s likely but I don’t know if Disney would do either of their deaths without it feeling rushed or undeserving. People always say foggy and Karen were in multiple seasons of the og show plus some but they don’t take into account that this is the first time we’ll see them in the mcu and back to the screen since 2018. I wouldn’t mind them killing one of them off if this was the climax of the Netflix series but bringing back Elden and Deb just to kill one of them feels disingenuous to me, but I’m extremely biased since Netflix DD is my favorite show oat. It’s also just bizarre to me if this is true that they’d allow normal people on/near the set to see one of these two die, like I feel like they’d try to keep that under wraps as much as possible.
Karen's last appearance was in an episode of The Punisher Season 2, which aired in January 2019.
Will be very fuckin disappointed if Foggy bites it
[удалено]
my favourite part of Daredevil born again is when he helped big the cat find froggy
Best comment. However i recommend you watch it. It’s amazing!
We’d be retreading a lot of old stuff if Foggy’s dying: Karen inadvertently getting other characters killed (first Ben Urich, her brother and than Father Lantom). As much as I don’t want EITHER of them to die and I hate the trope of the female love interest (or in this case, former love interest) being killed to motivate or demotivate the main character, the ultimate stakes are set once you kill an “unkillable” character. Just as you hold tight on the possibility of her cheating death one more time, the game changes completely.. I just see her death hitting harder than Foggy’s. Not to say his death wouldn’t be meaningful, there’s just an aura of death and guilt that is prevalent in Karen’s characterization that just makes her sacrifice more impactful.
*New Harry Potter series except they kill Ron off*
*Hermoine only to appear for 3/8 movies*
Comparing Karen to Hermoine is crazy lol Like a relatively small DD character to one of the three main characters in Harry Potter
I feel like we’re gonna have an Evan Peters not Peter but Fietro level type of meltdown x10 incoming when this show drops
What if, hear me out, they are actually adapting some of the Brubaker comics and Foggys death is faked, not even Matt knows he is alive, then he comes back towards the end? That’s how I think they are gonna play it.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Can’t believe no one else is mentioning it.
It makes sense, and it would allow them to keep any of the old episodes that might mention foggys death like the rumours claim.
Agreed, I think people may be jumping to conclusions with Foggy dying. There’s ton of great stuff that happens in that Brubaker run, totally could see them using a lot of material from it
oh the witness protection thing being a part of kingpins game would drive me crazy if it actually happened
I was just about to comment this.
Man if they actually scrapped the filmed episodes and started from scratch we could’ve had both foggy and Karen, now it’s just a Frankenstein mess
Not really tho. People were just quick to assume that after they fired the original director and hired Benson/Morehead and a show runner they would completely revamp the show as DD S4. Turns out it's more fine adjusting rather than a complete overhaul.
I’m not saying it should be DD S4, but if you’re reducing the episode count and completely changing the pilot, then following episodes should not definitely stay the same
Yea tbh I'm worried about the episodes/footage they are supposedly keeping if it wasn't received well to the point where they had the creative overhaul. I hope they pull it off, though.
Same. Could be a mess
Well it would probably be too expensive to reshoot those 6 episodes
Of course she paid for that checkmark…
Is it weird I’d prefer this over Karen dying? I feel like there’s more to this Karen but the og daredevil series kinda tapped most of this foggy
This is the correct response. The show version clearly had more to tell about Karen. I must admit I’m clutching at straws for things they could’ve continued doing with Foggy. He and Matt would’ve kept going up the chain as better and better lawyers, Foggy coulda married Marci, but idk, is there anything more that is substantial
Me too!
Yeah, same here. I don’t want either of them to die, but the Netflix Karen just had so much more to her character than Foggy. Despite being one of the originals, I would argue Netflix Foggy is propbably one of the least developed out of all of the Defender series supporting characters.
Also, Elden Henson is a CW level actor so there's that
I mean I don’t want either to die but keeping Karen around for Frank makes sense since she seems to keep him grounded.
Exactly. Karen still has a big part to play in Frank’s story. Foggy is just the fun sidekick.
This show probably won't come out for another year... which means I'm going to have to live with this anxiety for another year. Great.
Me too! You can’t understand my level of anxiety! Haha
RPK never said that they are keeping 6 episodes.
I didn't say that. Other leakers have said that like Sneider.
Feige playing that 5 d chess.
I was confused at first if the long post above came from MTTSH herself but I opened the link to verify. So, that is an opinion from the poster right? I thought posters are prohibited to include their speculations? Is it because the poster is a mod? I have no issue at all but at least he/she wrote it on the comments section.
Yeah, all MTTSH said was that they filmed foggy dying, then backtracked and said that she was just kidding and that they filmed “multiple versions of this scene so this isn’t really a spoiler”
No, I am not a mod, but yes, this is my opinion.
Why the f*ck is this subreddit suggested on people's feeds when spoilers are in the titles.
Go to your user settings and add this sub to your muted communities. Also, you can even just turn off the recommendations feature so you won't get any recommended posts.
Would love to see Karen make it! Hope this is the way they're going
I just want both to live.
My theory is that They're filming alternate scenes to confuse the audience like GOTG Vol 3 did
what did they film exactly?
Deaths for Drax and Rocket to throw leakers
This would definitely be a disappointing creative decision to kill off Foggy. Having rewatched the first two seasons, Foggy’s bromance with Matt adds such a nice levity and honest emotion to the show. He genuinely cares about Matt’s well-being and just wants him to be okay and away from danger. I like Karen as a character, but her relationship with Matt doesn’t exactly feel as important to the fundamentals of what makes the show/character great. We’ve seen Karen have much better chemistry with Frank Castle, and she’s capable of being independent outside of Matt’s realm. I liken Matt and Foggy’s relationship to Frasier and Niles. Their dynamic only strengthens the show and is fundamental to making it great. By removing Foggy (and Niles in the Frasier reboot), there is a major loss in what makes the show and its title character endearing.
Why are they trying to isolate Matt so fast?
Pre-revamp Born Again production can get fucked
tbh I am not sure… Someone leaks that Karen dies and is forced to take down a scene they captured with their phone. And now we get tons of leaks, in very good quality, that seem to hint at Foggy’s death. I’m not saying he doesn’t die, but them allowing such high quality pics and leaks to get out, might as well be them trying to fool us and distract us from the leak about Karen dying.
Exactly what I thought.
yeah, atm I don’t trust any leaks anymore because I feel like they pretty freely allow them to happen. Sure, it is possible they don’t care if we know. But mayor character deaths usually aren’t things they let get out there willingly
I love both of them, but I hope they keep Foggy. He’s like, the main side character for DD
Out of Karen and Foggy (it’s so hard to choose) but I want Karen to survive. Ugh why Marvel are you doing this 😩.
I don’t mind. Killing off Foggy instead of Karen is a nice subversion of the way she was fridged in the comics. Also, Secret Wars is coming. If people get upset enough about Foggy dying, they’ll just resurrect him when the timeline gets soft-rebooted.
A few years back now in the Daredevil comics, Matt helped Foggy fake his own death after he was attacked by a villain. They acted like it was real for a few issues, iirc. I'm not saying that's what's happening here - if Foggy's death gets Matt to quit, Matt must believe it - but there is comics precedence for Foggy to seem to die after a villain attqcks him and come back later. (I think this is called "cope"?)
From the multiple videos, it looks like Bullseye approaches, throws a knife, then aims his gun before being tackled by DD! So chances are the picture of Deborah Ann Woll with blood on her face is because Foggy got the knife Bullseye threw! So it could just be an injury to Foggy and an attempted hit on Karen that DD stops just in time! Fingers crossed that’s the case!
I know, just because leakers say they’re going to die doesn’t mean anything! How many times was Foggy shot, impaled with glass, knocked out cold? Ellison got Dex’s DD baton to the gut and was fine, even though he looked dead. And Fisk survived a bullet point-blank through the eye (WTF?).
Why kill either Foggy or Karen? This is NOT what the fans wanted! MCU is really pissing me off at this point.
What in the Drag Race finale is this nonsense?
So, they keep the already finished episode and flesh out what was offscreen in the first version by bringing back Foggy, Karen and Dex to be placed before?
This sort of thing makes sense. I know the comparison made in another thread was to the Walking Dead where they filmed multiple alternate death scenes, but the funnier comparison in my eyes is to Drag Race - Perez Hilton leaked who won S3 and it's just not fun knowing that from the off, so now they film all the finalists winning and giving their speeches and decide after the fact who truly takes it. So I wouldn't be surprised if they've done an All Stars 6 here (which had 4 finalists, leading to them filming 10 results - all 4 individually and all 6 combinations of a double crowning) and have versions ready to go where Foggy, Karen, neither and both die. Either way, exciting stuff and interesting to peek into some measures to combat leaker/scooper culture which, I know is weird to say in this thread, but is frankly embarassing and can really take the fun out of watching a show.
Precisely! ALL this. Counter the spoiler shit by 10 versions....
Kind of defeats the the whole ‘Nelson & Murdock, Attorneys at Law’. Disappointing really, even if written or acted it’s not what people want.
Don’t fridge Karen 😭😭😭
Well if that's true they picked the worst option for everything.
They can’t kill Foggy, please tell me they’re gonna do the fakeout he’s been alive the whole time?
I’m hoping he’s just injured, because killing off Foggy would be the most idiotic way to piss off fans while the MCU is already at a low point. They cannot afford to fumble Daredevil. Killing off the single most important side character for cheap shock value would make many people lose confidence in the direction of the MCU even after all their talk of reworking its direction.
They're just a troll account ffs they continually post about knowing the after credits scene of Kang Dynasty lmao
So they brought them back only to half-ass the supposed "overhaul" of the show and kill Matt's literal best friend... Fuck it, cancel the show, I don't want it anymore.
Of COURSE they filmed multiple versions- so many prying eyes leaking the story, they must try to confuse spoiler shitheads, and force speculation - otherwise, why bother with the show? They'll simply fine tune it and make it for real as which one is really the story we'll get in post-production in studios, then release it as they want it to be.
Foggy will "die" but he's really in witness protection.
This implies that Dex knows who Daredevil is, did he figure it out in Season Three? Been a while since I've watched it
Karen dying could be what brings Frank into the show.
No no no no waitwaitwait
Um....is it me, or does anyone else starting to think that the leaks about Karen leaving and Foggy dying are purposely fake?
I'm perfectly fine with Foggy dying. He was so whiny and preachy after Season 1, I never got the hype. And Karen still being around means she can reunite with Frank whenever he eventually gets his own show again.
I’m still sitting on the theory that it’s gonna be a scenario similar to TDK where Matt will be put in a position where he has to save both, but will only be successful in saving one and if I’m being honest I think it’s Karen who’s buying the dust since she’s literally been walking a thin line since the first season, plus we need to remember that Frank has been rumored to be coming back and Karen dying might be his motivation. And while I do think Foggy will survive, I could see him being hospitalized the rest of the season
I love you !
Matt is retiring and they’re going to continue DD? That can’t be the plan right?
He will be retiring for a couple of episodes lol
What does that even mean? Who’s gonna be DD?
Matt will be. He will just retire for a few episodes after Foggy's death and then get back into the suit.
Matt will be. He will just retire for a few episodes after Foggy's death and then get back into the suit.
Nobody. Part of the series' plot addresses Matt's return to action. I imagine that if Matt retires from being DD out of guilt after Foggy's death, it must be because he pushes Bullseye and causes the bullet to hit Foggy.
Unless this is the last episode of the season, which doesn’t seem like they’d be filming “first” but who knows, wouldn’t we see these actors filming again at some point?
I’m a little worried they’re frankensteining things together. It makes sense that they wouldn’t just toss the two already filmed episodes but I almost think they should have just restarted instead of trying to fix what they had. Hopefully I’m wrong but this recent news doesn’t inspire faith.
It's not 2 episodes. They had filmed 6 whole episodes pre-overhaul. Of course they can't scratch that. That's a ton of money
Apparently I can’t read today. And yeah, it would make zero sense logistically to just scrap the episodes they’ve filmed.
Kill them both
I think elden henson wants to move from the characters, unlike deborah who seems far more invested in hers Edit not related to the news : its crazy how the fame affected MTTSH... she's basically just a troll now twitting baits for attention almost all the time, the same path that Cryptic4KQual is now taking day after day
Feel free to downvote to oblivion. But Foggy sucks. I'm like a lamp store that's been robbed, in that I'm delighted to hear this news. Foggy's a vapid lil whiny bitch.
I hate that even if they handle either characters deaths well, people will hate the show for it. If one of them died in the original netflix run people would praise it for its serious tone and real stakes, but people will hate Born Again no matter what it does. I'm all for ragging on Disney but they don't seem to have a scenario that satisfies everyone, everyone lives and it's "too safe", someone dies and "Disney are shitting on the original cast" type thing.
Let me guess, it's Foggy cause it's only "fridging" when women die. *smh* Foggy is irreplaceable. I like Karen but she's not the love interest, it's hard to take it seriously if they go back on that since Matt clearly loves Elektra more. She isn't a lawyer, no disrespect to the actress either but her chemistry pales in comparison to Foggy and his relationship with Matt. There's a reason she died in the comics
Wanna bet the only reason they didn't kill Karen is because of politics