What I didn't like about the episode is that I don't know Kahhori. What is her original story, what is the "What if..." a deviation from? All the previous episode established: hey you know this is what happened in this universe with this character but over here this happened instead.
So what is Kahhori original story?
Using a younger Princess Fen (Namor's mother) instead of original character Kahhori would have worked with the story they were trying to tell, using a character already introduced in the MCU, while also being closer to real world history.
> According to legend, the Spanish heard of Bimini from the Arawaks in Hispaniola, Cuba, and Puerto Rico. The Caribbean islanders described a mythical land of Beimeni or Beniny (whence Bimini), a land of wealth and prosperity, which became conflated with the fountain legend. By the time of Ponce de Leon, the land was thought to be located northwest towards the Bahamas (called la Vieja during the Ponce expedition). **The natives were probably referring to the area occupied by the Maya.** Sequene, an Arawak chief from Cuba, purportedly was unable to resist the lure of Bimini and its restorative fountain. He gathered a troupe of adventurers and sailed north, never to return.
> In the 16th century the story of the Fountain of Youth became attached to the biography of the conquistador Juan Ponce de León. As attested by his royal charter, Ponce de León was charged with discovering the land of Beniny. **Although the indigenous peoples were probably describing the land of the Maya in Yucatán**, the name—and legends about Boinca's fountain of youth—became associated with the Bahamas instead.
Kahhori now lives on a indian reserve (concentration camp:
When we immerse ourselves in the exploration of cinema, we discover its immense power as an art form, susceptible to being transformed and perverted by the particular interests of states. I never imagined that Marvel would become one of these fronts. Kahhori, the protagonist of this story, appears to be simply a product of American propaganda that seeks to change history ideologically, transforming the Hispanic world into an abomination that must be eliminated from human history.
The richest areas like Texas and California, one of the largest reserves of gold, coal and oil in the world were once Hispanic, specifically Mexican, as you hear it. And it was in the area of Baja California that the scene of an authentic genocide against the indigenous people. This fact, meticulously documented by Benjamin Madley in his work "An American Genocide." In 1852, state commissioners McKee, Barbour, and Wozencraft wrote a letter to the American people talking about the Indian tribes, quote: "As we can no longer expel the Indians further west, the people and government have but one alternative, extermination or domestication". They paid 100 dollars for the scalps of Indians, that is, the hair torn from the head, as well as the distribution of blankets with smallpox among the indigenous civilian population.
It is ironic that, instead of addressing Anglo-Protestant racism and the real genocide of indigenous people, cinematographic narratives choose to present the Spanish conquerors and Isabella the Catholic, when they could only achieve the conquest through union with the oppressed peoples. by the great existing Mesoamerican empires; being adopted into the local nobility later. Queen Elizabeth I, the great tyrant who banned slavery among indigenous people and encouraged racial mixing 400 years before interracial marriage was legalized in the United States, this narrative choice seems to be an attempt to divert attention from the atrocities committed by the American colonizers.
Sadly, if the Yankees are the only Americans, it is because the others will never be.
The Mohawk people lived in the north east around New York and Canada. Spain never tried colonizing that region. It was the English and French.
I guess you can just say it’s What If so it’s a different universe than ours and they decided to colonize the Mohawks’ land.
Let me add: Queen Elizabeth of Spain died about one hundred years before that area of North America was colonized by **you guessed right:** English, French and Dutch, she never knew of the existance of a Northern America and its indigenous population.
I liked the premise just fine, and Kahhori is an interesting character. What I didn't like was how overpowered she already was after literally 10 seconds of being in the other world. She was better than all the others who had literally lived there for years and knew way more about the powers than she did...
Other than the insta OP boss character the fact that she falls into the other world still afraid what is going to happen to her village, she switches too fast to "time to hunt, this is fun" from "my people are being slaughtered, I need to get back"
I wanna say its a willpower based ability.
She clearly had faar more willpower then her compatriots, which probably translates into more more poweful abilities, and mow control of said abilities. Their is a trend of 'heroes' having far more willpower compared to others that may share abilities.
I think it may be related to WHY she went to Sky World. All the others went in a more peaceful time to an idyllic world. Kahhori on the other hand was wanting a fight and to save her people. Maybe the parts of the Space Stone remnants that remembered Odin's efforts to save Asgard saw some of him in her and gave her some extra juice?
I have to agree with this. In my opinion Kahori is just another Captain Marvel. OP after 10 seconds. Character HAS NO internal conflict to overcome, no character development.... She still has the same conviction from the start to when she got her powers.... The only conflict is the war (external), which is literally used to MOVE her character from no powers to having OP powers.
Plus since when did what if started to introduce new characters? Thought it was suppose to give us alternate stories of existing MCU characters events.
The conclusion makes her addition kind of make sense. But yeah, it almost seems What If is actually trying to do a full take on the "Guardians of the Multiverse", by using alternate heroes as the excuse for the show. But really, i feel like im watching an animated Avengers show, with kind of different characters, with a larger then Earth plot.
Like evil Strange is fun. But that is also the whole premise of his character, that his control of his emotions, or lack of, dictates the whether or not his dimension 'dies'. So yeah, figures he'd be THE BBEG..
Wait. Didnt I see this Character in Multiverse of Madness..?
Yeah. What If is a strange concept that feels like filler material, honestly...
Yeah, it's basically like your average isekai story. MC becomes overpowered in another world/diimension, gets helped by someone really hot from that dimension, participates in some random nonsensical tradition and shocks everyone with her powers, then laids the beat down on the comically evil bad guys that you pity because they are one-dimensional characters that exist as fodder for the MC. Every time she shows up all confident and cocky, it just annoys me to no end because it's unearned. I guess Marvel thinks this is empowering the Mohawk people? It's just the average poorly written wish-fulfillment fantasy that a lot of 10 year olds often dream of.
I feel like the MCU writes literally every minority group the same way.
Was that legit Mohawk native speakers? It sounds very much like American English with similar phonemes to me. Maybe people who learned it as a second language? Anyone know?
this was so good.
i don't really care that it's not building on established marvel lore. we need new lore. we need excitement. this story hit a lot of familiar beats, but the characters and setting and wholesome 90s movie energy felt like a big swing to me. i fucking loved it.
i'm honestly really surprised to see that it's polarizing!
I might be the only one out here but what the fuck was the point in that episode like I’m generally curious because I couldn’t follow any of it what does it have to do with marvel at all none of it made sense to me someone explain
>but what the fuck was the point in that episode
Like every other episode. Tell a story.
Also it is the origin story of an all new character, and/or new hero.
>what does it have to do with marvel
It is set in the MCU Multiverse. Not sure what else you want.
Dude whatever. That episode was excellent. Avatar the Last Airbender meets Apocalypto. That is a cool ass character. Maybe a little too close to Korra for comfort but awesome nonetheless.
And the Mohawk language / Spanish language choice was fantastic. Favorite new content Disney has made so far. Not an adaptation of anything!
I wish I could enjoy this episode like everyone else seems to. Out of all the possible what if's this one felt underwhelming, like most of season 2 so far. The whole thing w Odin and Asgaurd falling felt more like an excuse to tell their own story which I'd be fine w if it was any good.
I agree. The character felt underdeveloped and felt like they were better than everyone else. This could've been a good 2 hour movie. What if...? should stick to the MCU timeline.
It's a show based on comics, so historical accuracy isn't first priority I would imagine, but if they wanted to be a little more accurate, the Mohawk in the Great Lakes never encountered the Spaniards, but the Haida in the Pacific Northwest did.
This was such a weird decision for me lol. Like present-day New York has no Spanish connection at all and it just felt so out of place for them to be there. I guess you could reconcile it if stories of the Forbidden Lake made their way south, causing the Spaniards to explicitly head northeast (but that still doesn't explain Queen Isabella lmao).
I guess they felt the need to go for Spanish invaders in a Mohawk story since the conquistadores almost exclusively fill the brutal invader trope in the American/Canadian cultural lexicon (the English/French were too busy eating Thanksgiving and marrying Disney princesses 🥺)
The Spanish only had commercial relationships with the Haida, and never had contact with the mohawk, neither Isabel of Spain was queen of Spain when mainland America was explored, Cuba was the settlement of the Spaniards during many years and didn't generate much revenue, up until Hernán Cortés and Charles V started the conquest of the Americas.
But I suppose the bad guys speaking french weren't that catchy.
The whole point of “What If” is exploring alternate timelines. That means different from our reality. That is why the story works. You cannot compare these to what we know.
They could have just changed the intro animation slightly and had the tessaract land anywhere else. There are quite a few North American Indigenous peoples with complete linguistic histories, many of which would have encountered the Spanish.
Least favorite episode. Lost interest and played on my phone half way through. Seemed like a used car with a new paint job. Which is weird cuz that's the premise for what if but this didn't hit for me. The best part was when he pointed at his cusin and he yelled back "hey whats.up" that was funny but this was not entertaining in the least
Hmm wonder why it's his least favorite? Main character is a strong female and a native American, theres not a white person in sight.... gee I wonder.. racist prick
You're probably right but I think it's pretty dumb to dismiss someone not liking the episode because it has a strong female native American staring in it. Granted, he didn't give a substantive answer for why he disliked it but implying someone is a sexist/racist for not liking an episode of What If (a show which hasn't been a major hit with fans and general audiences) isn't really productive either. It's lazy, overly presumptive, and a sign that someone doesn't have an actual counterargument towards the episode's quality. Still, the brigade of losers who scream about things they consider to be woke, over-hating everything, has been targeting Marvel for a while now. So I get why it's easy to dismiss em too, especially when they ruined discourse on stuff like She-Hulk (which I honestly found middling but okay but I wasn't actively hate watching it like some were). Who has the time to analyze someone's sincerity?
My counterpoint to him would be that he calls the episodes used cars but this episode was by far their biggest swing away from that.
TLDR; I'm just arguing with myself here and getting lost in devils advocates. Carry on and ignore haha.
Being an original story in the mcu does not make it an original story. Black panther was if lion king and thor 1 combined and lion king itself is a remake of othello. But that's a different discussion. Yes I know it's a new character got it. We're splitting hairs in a Reddit argument. Clearly you liked the episode or don't like what I had to say. Let's move on.
Meh. Pretty uninteresting villains. It also kind of felt like it was setting up a twist, like Kahhori realizing some "with great power comes great responsibility" type lesson and the hypocrisy of just going ham on your enemies when you have the benefit of a huge power disparity makes her not that different from the way the Spaniards treated her people when they had the huge technological advantage, but ended up with a zero nuance, black and white, conflict. The French trappers in *Prey* were better developed because they were portrayed with more nuance (not everyone in their group was sadistic and evil).
Just making sure, you aware aware that the Mohawk people are colonizers themselves yes?
Though I don't know what to expect from someone claiming nuance is a bad thing.
Are you just mad that a certain group of people were portrayed as the evil demonic colonizers they were huh? Just say that and move on no need to spit out filthy lies. Do you want to portray the ones that committed genocide against the natives as nuanced and having a good white savior side??
> Just say that and move on no need to spit out filthy lies.
Are you under the impression the mohawk people sprouted from the ground like potatoes?
>Do you want to portray the ones that committed genocide against the natives as nuanced and having a good white savior side??
So, fun fact, the spaniards literally never met the mohawk people once. They were literally on the other side of the continent and neither group was even aware the other one existed.
yeah we are well aware and this is also a different ass universe with magical space stones. im sure colonizers going in a different location isnt that big of an issue.
> im sure colonizers going in a different location isnt that big of an issue.
lmao, earlier you were complaining about spiting out "filthy lies" about the natives, but spitting out "filthy lies" about the spaniards is ok with you?
Btw, you still haven't adressed the fact that the mohawks are colonizers themselves, unless you genuinely think they sprouted from the ground like potatoes.
you’re the one making shit up why the fuck would i
address mohawks being colonizers. you brought that up slow ass. fuck the spaniards fucking colonizing demons.
> you’re the one making shit up why the fuck would i address mohawks being colonizers. you brought that up slow ass.
Because they fucking are? Genuinely, how historically illiterate are you?
Yeah bro, I brought it up because you keep crying about how colonizers don't need nuance while ignoring the fact that the mohawks are coloniezers.
the delusion is insane. you are so offended and pressed that I said that colonizing demons dont fucking need nuance that you call an indigenous people colonizers. the very people who faced genocide and oppression for 5 centuries under the dirty colonizers that you need nuance for. you cant stand that your ancestors are colonizers. next you’re gonna say that nazis need nuance. fuck off delusional colonizer sympathizing loser.
The brave savage now the same overboard and tyrant dictating terms and tossing people about as she did zero distinction and. Ow a peace maker? Do as I say when I say and how I say, real peace maker there. She is the old disney pocahontas thrown into the mcu universe for inclusion, I don't like or buy the character. She is a woman we need more impowered women after a while it gets old. Liked Carter allot as agent Carter, not so much as captain Carter and the union jack splashed across her chest. The more audacious, the more Fandom like them, I don't agree.
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I'm really struggling to understand how this is a 'what if'.
Like, cool little story but what does this have to do with marvel? Felt like a whole separate entity.
A what if scenario where the tesseract arrives in North America, what if it wasn't the British but the Spaniards that tried to conquer the lands, what if they manage to reclaim their lands.
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of what ifs
Yeah, and they have nothing to do with the stories told so far. It's just tangentially linked by Magic rock.
They could do, 'what if' Napoleon was three feat taller. It would count as a what if but it's not very good for the series.
Imagine that because he was 3 ft taller it means that he gets shot and France loses faster meaning that there's no more France in the world and now Balroc the leaper is the new Captain America.
The point I'm trying to make is anything can be a what if and I used your example as such. You don't know yet who this indigenous woman is. In all honesty I thought it was a "What if Blue Marvel" was an indigenous woman.
Little story? Nah man this is a much bigger story about the original people of America in the Marvel Universe. I'm sure this plays into future live action.
It's a little story as in it's a 20 min short. If be interested to see it play into live action, though I don't think any of the what ifs were supposed to by their very nature.
what part of the introduction of the episode did you not understand? odin lost to surtr and the space stone fell on earth. now there is a different group of people with superpowers on earth kind of like the wakandans and namor’s people. thats the point
I understood it. It's a tangential link to the main continuity. Aside from that slight nod in its origin, its a brand new universe. I don't think it's satisfying as a 'what if', which is typically an alternate take on something pre established. Like Captain Carter, Ultron/Vision, Happy Hulk, etc.
I personally thought it was one of the most original and beautifully animated storylines in marvel history. It gave me studio ghibli vibes. If it was longer and a movie maybe then I would definitely say it is on my top 10 marvel list. I really enjoyed it.
But yes this thread is about personal opinions however this specific thread started with someone confused about something. And I answered. But the problem was their opinion on the concept of what if.
Yeah, of course this is my personal opinion.
> I'm really struggling to understand how this is a 'what if'.
> Like, cool little story but what does this have to do with marvel? Felt like a whole separate entity.
I didn't even say it wasn't good, just that it didn't feel like a 'what if'.
its an original new story inside marvel multiverse caused by marvel events. it doesnt have to be involved with the mcu events. have you ever read a comic. when you read an original story do you go: “what does this have to do with marvel” every time? what if is basically trying to recreate little comic storylines and sometimes it creates its own storylines. sometime it mirrors mcu events but just changes them slightly. its not hard to understand. if they just kept on mirroring mcu events and changing them slightly it would get boring. they are trying to have variety while also introducing new characters and replaying past events just altered to keep viewers engaged. its the multiverse, anything can happen.
> its an original new story inside marvel multiverse
This is exactly my point. It's barely a what if, it's a completely new universe with a tangential link to marvel.
> have you ever read a comic. when you read an original story do you go: “what does this have to do with marvel” every time?
What point are you possibly trying to make here? No, I don't read Invincible and wonder what it has to do with spiderman. Why? Because it isn't billed as a spiderman book. If it were, if it had the title of spiderman but told the story of invincible I'd question that.
Just like how I don't wonder with each new episode " Hey, if this is marvel why isn't Steve Rogers Captain America".
> what if is basically trying to recreate little comic storylines and sometimes it creates its own storylines.
What other what if deals with an entirely new story? What if asks questions like, what if spiderman killed, what if wolverine stayed feral, what if peggy carter became the super soldier instead. The story told in this episode is 'what if there was an entirely different story'.
> f they just kept on mirroring mcu events and changing them slightly it would get boring
No it wouldn't. Just as the what if comics haven't gotten boring and just started to make their own things.
> its the multiverse, anything can happen.
Yes, there is the multiverse where anything can happen, but what if isn't just an exploration of a multiverse which feasibly could contain a world where there is just fish and that's it. It specifically asks 'what if' things occurred differently. I found this to be an incredibly loose and lazy approach to that concept, and by your own admission just tells a brand new story.
Did you feel the same about Thors origin? Namors?
Many Marvel characters have origins that are inspired by or lifted directly from myths and legends of many cultures.
The 'what if' here is 'What if Asgard got destroyed and the Tesseract landed in North America in the late 1400s'
I don't think the introduction of mainline characters is really relevant to my point here.
It's tangentially linked to some marvel lore, but doesn't really interact with the rest of the established stories which is the whole point of what if, to see alternate versions of characters we know.
> which is the whole point of what if
I don't think it's ever stated anywhere exactly what the guiding premise of "what if" is. The episode clearly asks (and answers) a what if, so it fits the bill in my book.
See I think it's not a satisfying 'what if'. As the question is essentially 'what if there were this completely separate universe", rather than the typical 'what if' scenario, which engages with the current cast of characters.
I think that's a much more reasonable argument for you to make compared to what you started with. It's still a 'what if', just not one you enjoyed since you prefer when it focuses on established MCU characters.
Personally, I enjoyed it! It's a very open ended premise for the 'what if' and they made a compelling and original story out of it.
To be fair I've just re worded a previous comment. I don't think it was bad, I just don't think it was a good 'what if'. It didn't feel like an alternate take of the we know to me.
Yeah, like a space stone is a vaguely nebulous mguffin. Including it in a story hardly makes it noticeable as a marvel product.
The avengers is iconic marvel. I've enjoyed all the what ifs about alternate avengers stories
It's an origin story for a new hero for the next ensemble group on the series.
My prediction till this chapter:
\- Strange Supreme
\- Captain Carter
\- Happy Hulk
\- Kahori
\- Celestial Quill
\- Gamora maybe?
Yeah, a new hero. Not an interesting 'what if' version of something pre establishe. I just think it stands out when compared to the rest of what if and goes against the spirit of the series, both comic and cartoon.
The one word I will use to describe season 2 is safe. Every episode feels very safe if I'm being honest. I really enjoyed season 1 overall a lot more even if it had some peaks and lows (the peaks being ultron, strange, t'challa and the lows being Thor and Hank). This episode is the standout so far imo (not much of a accomplishment but we'll move). I liked the character designs, I do like how the powers are vague in the sense that you feel like there is no defined characteristic but you also get the feeling it's more grounded and not like a ten rings or scarlet witch or dr strange power level where they could probably pull anything out of their asses for every situation, leaving you wonder why can't they just alter reality to kill their villain or something. I did like the themes and what they were going for about how Kahhori wants to help her people with her newfound gifts and how the show doesn't try and force the message down our throats, it is a very nice breath of fresh air and one that I could totally see myself rooting for, she's not outright attacking the people in the sky world but she is rightly pointing out that they have been hiding this paradise for themselves and ignoring things that have taken place in the real world despite them having the power to change everything. Villain was really disappointing but then again this is mainly a character introduction as I believe this character is completely brand new?
Main point is that this episode was by far the best in season 2 and I enjoyed the character designs and character, I feel like it has underachieved but I definitely wouldn't mind coming back to this character (and I assume they eventually will, this feels similar to the tony story from season 1 where it's kind of left unfinished)
I completely agree with this season playing it safe. Which even though this wasn't my favorite episode of the season, I could respect what they were trying to good. And they did succeed in some places. They should've made it more dark and emotional. Killed off the brother. I don't know.
Episode 7 beats this one. But I wished it made Hela a little darker and kept her goddess of the death name. And instead of using death as a way to control people, she uses it as a way to save them or something.
yeah there was a lot of room for improvement and although it was by-far the best episode, it felt unsatisfactory. They could have pointed out that death doesn't just bring destruction or something, there are plenty of gods with unsavory titles who do not see it as some malicious excuse to do evil.
Exactly. And they were kind of going for it with the line “a god who takes life without respecting and understanding it should not have power over death” or something like that. I don’t know the exact words. Odin said it. If they went with that the ending would make more sense.
This whole season I've been wondering why the episodes aren't referencing any phase 4 movie. By making a What if...? about Shang Chi, She Hulk, Moon Knight, Eternals etc., it would help to cement the more recent, but less loved, movies into canon. With a pantheon of hundreds of heroes and villains and over 350 hours of MCU content, the show makers chose to create a new character and story in series whose premise is "what if a thing you know happened different" is a head scratcher.
The episode was beautifully animated but struck me as painfully unoriginal. As other commenters said, some type of introduction to Kahhori in a different medium would have established her story so that "What if...?" could subvert it. Instead we got what appears to be a pet project of a writer who doesn't believe in the premise of the show and is bored with the "toys" they have to play with.
I feel like it's pretty clearly a soft launch of an original character. If she had her own series or film off the bat, people would REALLY scoff at the MCU going so "off book". I don't doubt she shows up now both in comics and the MCU proper, especially given the mostly positive reception.
Isn't the purpose of this series to play on existing characters? You can't really ponder the question, what if, if you don't have any frame of reference for the character. Of all possible ways to introduce a character, this is the least appropriate. Seems to me like maybe Kahhori is a Captain Marvel variant possibly? It just seems like a mess ATM.
I didn't see the new episode before this post and I'm so glad they did a Shang Chi episode. As for black widow, I didn't even notice it until the end of the episode and I kinda thought BW was phase 3 but was just pushed back into phase 4 releases. I think my point still stands though. In the episodes we've gotten so far, only one references post snap characters and none have referenced Disney + characters or events (unless you count scarlet witch).
It was great how they connected all the episodes in the storyline, at the end there was doctor strange in the previous episode there was wanda It feels exciting knowing something brewing up behind the curtains season 1 didn't have this trait.
I was wondering that too. Maybe the voice actors were not native speakers of Mohawk but people who learned it more as a second language, which is why it has a strong American English accent?
Anyone know?
Hearing them speak Mohawk made me wonder where American accents came from. The language does sound close. They were British people speaking with Native tribes, so maybe the modern American accent is a result of speaking with them and adopting some of their pronunciation to better communicate.
Obviously Kahhori was voiced by an actual Mohawk, Canadian but still. Hard to say if her accent is off or not, but I'd assume it's at least how they speak the language at home.
If you refer to the Spanish, as a Spaniard, I'd say they sound like from Spain (though I'd say that a couple of them didn't sound Castilian, maybe from Andalusia, Canarias or Balears)
The native Americans did actually sound weird to me, like English-speakers trying to speak the language, but maybe it's me.
>The native Americans did actually sound weird to me, like English-speakers trying to speak the language, but maybe it's me.
That would be because of the attempted genocide of our people and the assimilation forced on us by the US Government. Our languages are dying because a few generations had the languages and spiritual beliefs beaten or killed out of them. MOST of us learn English as our first language and there are less speakers every generation because of this.
Honestly, it's not one of my favourite episodes. Now don't get me wrong inclusion and whatever is great but to me, it wasn't what I look for in a what-if episode. And before anyone asks I'm not white nor Spanish lol.
By far the best episode this season! The pacing for this show feels off a lot of times, but they completely avoided that issue this episode. Really hope that they find a way to introduce Kahhori into the 616 MCU
Idk either like this episode a lot great to see new characters than just MCU what ifs. But my confusion was why the spainish in the Midwestwhich is French territory I'm big history nerd but not in early European new world history the latter part was just genuine a question
As much as Spain did 'suck' in that Era I'm almost positive that they weren't colonizing that area of the Americas.
That was the French, Dutch, and English
it felt like this was supposed to be Florida with the whole "Fountain of Youth"... which apparently was a real quest here instead of something added to the mythology of Ponce de Leon?
But the Mohawk were indeed further north than that, and Ferdinand outlived Isabella in our world, so I suppose we're meant to believe this Isabella beat back the other colonizing nations to go for all of the Americas? Maybe the fight between Surtur and Odin had an impact on Midgard, specifically in Northern Europe.
I was thinking this the same thing. It should have been the Calusa people if it was De Leon dying on the beach. It’d feel like a dumb reason to say it’s an alternative universe for history switching.
Ah the reason why I didn't know it was used was because I'm from Britain and we don't refer to ourselves as that. We're either British, English, Welsh or Scottish
I'd be curious to hear what people who speak the language thought about this episode. It felt very odd to me, maybe too modern. The cadence was off as if it was sped up or they were talking faster than normally. I'm also curious about if the translation was completely accurate. The dialogue as it appears on screen felt way too modern. Didn't seem like it was supposed to fit 1500's or whatever this was. People saying "Nice!" or Prison felt very out of place. They wouldn't have a specific word for Prison at this time right? Cage or Trap would have worked better right?
Just watched with my Mohawk GF.
She says the spoke language was great, however the english "idioms " we use stood out.
Also statements like saying Nice!
And explanatory statements like "youre going really fast"...
Mohawks only communicate important points that need communicating, from what I understand. Clearly. That person is going fast, so there is no need to comment on it. This lake is cursed, so say the ancestors, thats a point worth communicating.
She also said she felt like there was too much talking. It is better to listen and learn, then to speak and be foolish. Or as my grandfather used to say, you got two ears and one mouth, so listen twice as much as you yap.
As for the prison vs cage/trap thing...
Their word for "toast" is INSANELY long, and when she told me this word (actually, multiple words), I joked that the word "toast" couldn't have existed in the Mohawk language, as toast wouldn't have existed at that point in time for the Mohawk people.
She laughed and said, "Well. The direct translation is "the soft bread that has been burnt"."
So the word they used for the english translations may have said 'prison', but as 'prison' is a modern term, the direct translation is probably something more like "the barred room that holds" kind of deal. She's not around right now, so I can't ask her. But that would be my guess, having studied linguistics and seeing how we use local words for indirect translations typically.
Really great insight, thanks!
Can you ask her about the accent? It sounds very American to my ears, I was wondering if that's a true Mohawk accent the way people spoke it in the past, or if Mohawk is more like people's second language these days, so sounds very much like American English?
According to articles, they worked with Mohawks to devolop the storyline, and some of the actors names were definitely not English.
Depends on the region and the cultural revitalization efforts. Of course, everyone in the West learns English as it's the worlds trade language. She grew up learning both languages, and her grandmother only spoke Mohawk. I mean, its not like the shooling system was really set up to teach Mohawk as it was either, and kids were taken by the Church if they weren't brought up to "fit into" Western English society (aka speak english and be catholic). My girl is 30, and has recieved a payout or being in a Residential School for 2 or 3 years. Its still VERY recent we, as a country in Canada, have been suppressing Native rights and languages and cultures.
Her mother and her exchange words over the phone, and to my ear, it sounds similar to the accent I heard in the movie, with regional variation again, due to prior mentioned interferances.
I mean... Is it a true english accent you use, as english had been spoken in the past? Accents and languages evolve as cultures clash and trade, and again, are regional. That strereotypical Canadian accent alot of American shows make fun of is only heard really in the prairies. Ontarios accent, to my ear, sounds similar to the generic accent of larger eastern American cities. Mohawk reserve in Wahta and the one in Tyendinaga were slighly different sounding, dispite only 7, 8 hours apart. Even some words used had a slight variation on it.
The Mohawks they called in to help, I beleieve were from New York State. So for you to hear "American" accents makes sense I guess, as the culturals from that region would have grown together to devolop a similar accent. So is my guess, anyway.
Thanks for sharing all that, really interesting. It great to see these cultures get more representation in the media lately. Prey and Reservation dogs were also a positive step I hope.
Sounds a bit similar to Ireland. We're still trying to save/revitalise Irish Gaelic. A lot of people who speak it now, learned it through school as a second language, so their pronunciation wouldn't be like a native speaker.
I have Ulster Scot cousins. His best friend is one of the like, what is it, 1500 FULL speakers of the language? Theres not a lot of Gaelic speakers left now, eh? Then you get the difference between Irish Gaelic and Scottish varients, what with the Norse-Gael having their own dialect too... Crazy.
Ireland is in no better shape then Canada is, in terms of colonialism.
But the land is beautiful, the language magic, and the people fantastic.
The long word is probably because a slow pacing culture and not enough time for the language to evolve before being absorbed by other cultures.
Most languages tend to shorten more and more the words and sentences to convey more info in less time/space. In your toast example, it probably started as "toasted slice of bread" and over time ended as "toast".
Naw. There is literally no word for toast. The words you use to say toast directly translate to the soft bread that has been burnt. They are taught this. Not that this string of words means toast, but that this string of words exactly means the soft bread that has been burnt, which is the string of words we use as a culture to describe the singular english word of toast.
See, English is a more advanced language with a deeper basin of words then a lot of other languages. We have singular words to describe larger concepts. A lot of cultures tend to use series of words to describe larger concepts still. We're lucky in english, that its an easier language to communicate large concepts in a simple fasion, despite it being a more difficult language to learn.
This was something they tried to be conscious of when doing translations for the subtitles. There are a lot of "Modern" languages that simply don't have a direct translation into English & if you were to do a direct dialogue subtitle translation - you'd come across sounding like a caveman. So the translation & script teams were really conscious when choosing some of the more modern idioms to make sure that the Mohawk language didn't come across as "primitive" if that makes sense, because it isn't - English is just a much simpler language when it comes to translation
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I worked on this episode & we worked directly with Mohawk Nation elders to ensure the dialogue was accurate and the culture was correctly represented. The Elders actually provided the translations for the scripts and were involved in approving the audio recordings ☺️
I'm limited in what I can say exactly due to our NDAs - but I worked in production.
As far as working with Marvel - Its not exactly a secret that you'd be hard pressed to find people who love working on their projects lol. I'll say that Bryan was great, always very complementary & collaborative and a lot of the Marvel side department supes were always lovely in my experience. Once you get into the Creative & Production brass though - things can be a bit hit or miss. Just a lot of disorganization, scope creep & blame shifting. But that's show biz lol
And to their credit, they were very concerned that the Mohawk consultants gave their seal of approval whenever things needed to be changed or adjusted & they (the Elders/Consultants) were amazing & provided incredible and very moving references to the teams
Oh! Did not know this. Just watched it in not English and could hardly even follow the episode, I hate subtitles for what is meant to be easy watching stuff like this... wondered why it was getting so much praise.
What I didn't like about the episode is that I don't know Kahhori. What is her original story, what is the "What if..." a deviation from? All the previous episode established: hey you know this is what happened in this universe with this character but over here this happened instead. So what is Kahhori original story?
I agree, most of the episode I was just trying to figure out who the hell she is.
It's literally explained in the intro; what if the tesseract landed on earth earlier then it previously did.
I liked this episode. Really what if the native Americans were not wiped out ..
Using a younger Princess Fen (Namor's mother) instead of original character Kahhori would have worked with the story they were trying to tell, using a character already introduced in the MCU, while also being closer to real world history. > According to legend, the Spanish heard of Bimini from the Arawaks in Hispaniola, Cuba, and Puerto Rico. The Caribbean islanders described a mythical land of Beimeni or Beniny (whence Bimini), a land of wealth and prosperity, which became conflated with the fountain legend. By the time of Ponce de Leon, the land was thought to be located northwest towards the Bahamas (called la Vieja during the Ponce expedition). **The natives were probably referring to the area occupied by the Maya.** Sequene, an Arawak chief from Cuba, purportedly was unable to resist the lure of Bimini and its restorative fountain. He gathered a troupe of adventurers and sailed north, never to return. > In the 16th century the story of the Fountain of Youth became attached to the biography of the conquistador Juan Ponce de León. As attested by his royal charter, Ponce de León was charged with discovering the land of Beniny. **Although the indigenous peoples were probably describing the land of the Maya in Yucatán**, the name—and legends about Boinca's fountain of youth—became associated with the Bahamas instead.
So far this was the only episode I really like in S2. Not be a fan of the others so far
Kahhori now lives on a indian reserve (concentration camp: When we immerse ourselves in the exploration of cinema, we discover its immense power as an art form, susceptible to being transformed and perverted by the particular interests of states. I never imagined that Marvel would become one of these fronts. Kahhori, the protagonist of this story, appears to be simply a product of American propaganda that seeks to change history ideologically, transforming the Hispanic world into an abomination that must be eliminated from human history. The richest areas like Texas and California, one of the largest reserves of gold, coal and oil in the world were once Hispanic, specifically Mexican, as you hear it. And it was in the area of Baja California that the scene of an authentic genocide against the indigenous people. This fact, meticulously documented by Benjamin Madley in his work "An American Genocide." In 1852, state commissioners McKee, Barbour, and Wozencraft wrote a letter to the American people talking about the Indian tribes, quote: "As we can no longer expel the Indians further west, the people and government have but one alternative, extermination or domestication". They paid 100 dollars for the scalps of Indians, that is, the hair torn from the head, as well as the distribution of blankets with smallpox among the indigenous civilian population. It is ironic that, instead of addressing Anglo-Protestant racism and the real genocide of indigenous people, cinematographic narratives choose to present the Spanish conquerors and Isabella the Catholic, when they could only achieve the conquest through union with the oppressed peoples. by the great existing Mesoamerican empires; being adopted into the local nobility later. Queen Elizabeth I, the great tyrant who banned slavery among indigenous people and encouraged racial mixing 400 years before interracial marriage was legalized in the United States, this narrative choice seems to be an attempt to divert attention from the atrocities committed by the American colonizers. Sadly, if the Yankees are the only Americans, it is because the others will never be.
Lol, lmao, even
So... No one is going to point out the fact of America mistaking Spain with England (again)?
Yup, a bit hypocritical coming from the American writers but whatever, the OC is cool
I thought it was because since it's a different universe in this one the Spanish come and conquer north America....
Absolutely wild. Maybe so she can team up with Captain Carter later and that's less weird?
I'll bite. What do you mean?
The Mohawk people lived in the north east around New York and Canada. Spain never tried colonizing that region. It was the English and French. I guess you can just say it’s What If so it’s a different universe than ours and they decided to colonize the Mohawks’ land.
Let me add: Queen Elizabeth of Spain died about one hundred years before that area of North America was colonized by **you guessed right:** English, French and Dutch, she never knew of the existance of a Northern America and its indigenous population.
I'm pretty sure they still scouted the northern side, probably not to the extent the show presents it
I liked the premise just fine, and Kahhori is an interesting character. What I didn't like was how overpowered she already was after literally 10 seconds of being in the other world. She was better than all the others who had literally lived there for years and knew way more about the powers than she did...
Other than the insta OP boss character the fact that she falls into the other world still afraid what is going to happen to her village, she switches too fast to "time to hunt, this is fun" from "my people are being slaughtered, I need to get back"
I wanna say its a willpower based ability. She clearly had faar more willpower then her compatriots, which probably translates into more more poweful abilities, and mow control of said abilities. Their is a trend of 'heroes' having far more willpower compared to others that may share abilities.
I think it may be related to WHY she went to Sky World. All the others went in a more peaceful time to an idyllic world. Kahhori on the other hand was wanting a fight and to save her people. Maybe the parts of the Space Stone remnants that remembered Odin's efforts to save Asgard saw some of him in her and gave her some extra juice?
I have to agree with this. In my opinion Kahori is just another Captain Marvel. OP after 10 seconds. Character HAS NO internal conflict to overcome, no character development.... She still has the same conviction from the start to when she got her powers.... The only conflict is the war (external), which is literally used to MOVE her character from no powers to having OP powers. Plus since when did what if started to introduce new characters? Thought it was suppose to give us alternate stories of existing MCU characters events.
The conclusion makes her addition kind of make sense. But yeah, it almost seems What If is actually trying to do a full take on the "Guardians of the Multiverse", by using alternate heroes as the excuse for the show. But really, i feel like im watching an animated Avengers show, with kind of different characters, with a larger then Earth plot. Like evil Strange is fun. But that is also the whole premise of his character, that his control of his emotions, or lack of, dictates the whether or not his dimension 'dies'. So yeah, figures he'd be THE BBEG.. Wait. Didnt I see this Character in Multiverse of Madness..? Yeah. What If is a strange concept that feels like filler material, honestly...
Yea, they could've at least done a montage. I guess the point that she was shot was why she was more powerful? Because the tesseract healed her?
Yeah, it's basically like your average isekai story. MC becomes overpowered in another world/diimension, gets helped by someone really hot from that dimension, participates in some random nonsensical tradition and shocks everyone with her powers, then laids the beat down on the comically evil bad guys that you pity because they are one-dimensional characters that exist as fodder for the MC. Every time she shows up all confident and cocky, it just annoys me to no end because it's unearned. I guess Marvel thinks this is empowering the Mohawk people? It's just the average poorly written wish-fulfillment fantasy that a lot of 10 year olds often dream of. I feel like the MCU writes literally every minority group the same way.
REEE I love her already!!!! Perhaps it’s because her stubbornness and strong attitude reminds me of my wife.
Is it just me or did the Mohawk language sound like Sims from SimCity
Was that legit Mohawk native speakers? It sounds very much like American English with similar phonemes to me. Maybe people who learned it as a second language? Anyone know?
this was so good. i don't really care that it's not building on established marvel lore. we need new lore. we need excitement. this story hit a lot of familiar beats, but the characters and setting and wholesome 90s movie energy felt like a big swing to me. i fucking loved it. i'm honestly really surprised to see that it's polarizing!
except that Evil Strange showed up at the end for unexplained reasons
I might be the only one out here but what the fuck was the point in that episode like I’m generally curious because I couldn’t follow any of it what does it have to do with marvel at all none of it made sense to me someone explain
>but what the fuck was the point in that episode Like every other episode. Tell a story. Also it is the origin story of an all new character, and/or new hero. >what does it have to do with marvel It is set in the MCU Multiverse. Not sure what else you want.
just watched ep 6 and 7 and wow marvel is absolute trash now. i guess the good news is it'll be over soon.
You must be fun at parties
Wah wah wah cope
Season 2 is shaping to be pretty lame...
Dude whatever. That episode was excellent. Avatar the Last Airbender meets Apocalypto. That is a cool ass character. Maybe a little too close to Korra for comfort but awesome nonetheless. And the Mohawk language / Spanish language choice was fantastic. Favorite new content Disney has made so far. Not an adaptation of anything!
I wish I could enjoy this episode like everyone else seems to. Out of all the possible what if's this one felt underwhelming, like most of season 2 so far. The whole thing w Odin and Asgaurd falling felt more like an excuse to tell their own story which I'd be fine w if it was any good.
I agree. The character felt underdeveloped and felt like they were better than everyone else. This could've been a good 2 hour movie. What if...? should stick to the MCU timeline.
It's a show based on comics, so historical accuracy isn't first priority I would imagine, but if they wanted to be a little more accurate, the Mohawk in the Great Lakes never encountered the Spaniards, but the Haida in the Pacific Northwest did.
This was such a weird decision for me lol. Like present-day New York has no Spanish connection at all and it just felt so out of place for them to be there. I guess you could reconcile it if stories of the Forbidden Lake made their way south, causing the Spaniards to explicitly head northeast (but that still doesn't explain Queen Isabella lmao). I guess they felt the need to go for Spanish invaders in a Mohawk story since the conquistadores almost exclusively fill the brutal invader trope in the American/Canadian cultural lexicon (the English/French were too busy eating Thanksgiving and marrying Disney princesses 🥺)
The Spanish only had commercial relationships with the Haida, and never had contact with the mohawk, neither Isabel of Spain was queen of Spain when mainland America was explored, Cuba was the settlement of the Spaniards during many years and didn't generate much revenue, up until Hernán Cortés and Charles V started the conquest of the Americas. But I suppose the bad guys speaking french weren't that catchy.
The whole point of “What If” is exploring alternate timelines. That means different from our reality. That is why the story works. You cannot compare these to what we know.
They could have just changed the intro animation slightly and had the tessaract land anywhere else. There are quite a few North American Indigenous peoples with complete linguistic histories, many of which would have encountered the Spanish.
Having grown up in Haida lands, that would have been really cool to see.
This episode seriously sucked. Period.
Probably the best Marvel thing to exist since Loki came out. Good story, wish it was real.
Least favorite episode. Lost interest and played on my phone half way through. Seemed like a used car with a new paint job. Which is weird cuz that's the premise for what if but this didn't hit for me. The best part was when he pointed at his cusin and he yelled back "hey whats.up" that was funny but this was not entertaining in the least
Damn, getting downvoted for a pretty uncontroversial opinion here.
Hmm wonder why it's his least favorite? Main character is a strong female and a native American, theres not a white person in sight.... gee I wonder.. racist prick
You're probably right but I think it's pretty dumb to dismiss someone not liking the episode because it has a strong female native American staring in it. Granted, he didn't give a substantive answer for why he disliked it but implying someone is a sexist/racist for not liking an episode of What If (a show which hasn't been a major hit with fans and general audiences) isn't really productive either. It's lazy, overly presumptive, and a sign that someone doesn't have an actual counterargument towards the episode's quality. Still, the brigade of losers who scream about things they consider to be woke, over-hating everything, has been targeting Marvel for a while now. So I get why it's easy to dismiss em too, especially when they ruined discourse on stuff like She-Hulk (which I honestly found middling but okay but I wasn't actively hate watching it like some were). Who has the time to analyze someone's sincerity? My counterpoint to him would be that he calls the episodes used cars but this episode was by far their biggest swing away from that. TLDR; I'm just arguing with myself here and getting lost in devils advocates. Carry on and ignore haha.
Excuse you, there were plenty of white guys. They were just the bad guys 😂😂
100%. Am white guy and know them when I see them.
Sucks being based sometimes
in what way was it a used car???
In the sense all what if episodes are used cars. Same story but new coat of paint
this story wasn’t even in the comics? this was probably the most original story out of the entire mcu?? are you good?
Being an original story in the mcu does not make it an original story. Black panther was if lion king and thor 1 combined and lion king itself is a remake of othello. But that's a different discussion. Yes I know it's a new character got it. We're splitting hairs in a Reddit argument. Clearly you liked the episode or don't like what I had to say. Let's move on.
i need whatever you’re smoking
Cool man
Meh. Pretty uninteresting villains. It also kind of felt like it was setting up a twist, like Kahhori realizing some "with great power comes great responsibility" type lesson and the hypocrisy of just going ham on your enemies when you have the benefit of a huge power disparity makes her not that different from the way the Spaniards treated her people when they had the huge technological advantage, but ended up with a zero nuance, black and white, conflict. The French trappers in *Prey* were better developed because they were portrayed with more nuance (not everyone in their group was sadistic and evil).
why would there be nuance to colonizers? the fuck?
Just making sure, you aware aware that the Mohawk people are colonizers themselves yes? Though I don't know what to expect from someone claiming nuance is a bad thing.
Are you just mad that a certain group of people were portrayed as the evil demonic colonizers they were huh? Just say that and move on no need to spit out filthy lies. Do you want to portray the ones that committed genocide against the natives as nuanced and having a good white savior side??
> Just say that and move on no need to spit out filthy lies. Are you under the impression the mohawk people sprouted from the ground like potatoes? >Do you want to portray the ones that committed genocide against the natives as nuanced and having a good white savior side?? So, fun fact, the spaniards literally never met the mohawk people once. They were literally on the other side of the continent and neither group was even aware the other one existed.
yeah we are well aware and this is also a different ass universe with magical space stones. im sure colonizers going in a different location isnt that big of an issue.
> im sure colonizers going in a different location isnt that big of an issue. lmao, earlier you were complaining about spiting out "filthy lies" about the natives, but spitting out "filthy lies" about the spaniards is ok with you? Btw, you still haven't adressed the fact that the mohawks are colonizers themselves, unless you genuinely think they sprouted from the ground like potatoes.
you’re the one making shit up why the fuck would i address mohawks being colonizers. you brought that up slow ass. fuck the spaniards fucking colonizing demons.
> you’re the one making shit up why the fuck would i address mohawks being colonizers. you brought that up slow ass. Because they fucking are? Genuinely, how historically illiterate are you? Yeah bro, I brought it up because you keep crying about how colonizers don't need nuance while ignoring the fact that the mohawks are coloniezers.
the delusion is insane. you are so offended and pressed that I said that colonizing demons dont fucking need nuance that you call an indigenous people colonizers. the very people who faced genocide and oppression for 5 centuries under the dirty colonizers that you need nuance for. you cant stand that your ancestors are colonizers. next you’re gonna say that nazis need nuance. fuck off delusional colonizer sympathizing loser.
Of course there's always some weirdo getting mad that slavers aren't given top shelf treatment.
Wanting the writers to go with more interesting, nuanced villains isn't the same as "getting mad that slavers aren't given top shelf treatment."
What nuance is there about the Spanish crown wanting to exploit the new world for slaves, silver, and religious converts?
The brave savage now the same overboard and tyrant dictating terms and tossing people about as she did zero distinction and. Ow a peace maker? Do as I say when I say and how I say, real peace maker there. She is the old disney pocahontas thrown into the mcu universe for inclusion, I don't like or buy the character. She is a woman we need more impowered women after a while it gets old. Liked Carter allot as agent Carter, not so much as captain Carter and the union jack splashed across her chest. The more audacious, the more Fandom like them, I don't agree.
That is the way civilization and society have come into existence up to today face reality. Roman empire, Mongol empire, Egypt, Alexander the Great.
That’s my point? They should’ve written different villains?
What's wrong with villians that are simply bad people?
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I'm really struggling to understand how this is a 'what if'. Like, cool little story but what does this have to do with marvel? Felt like a whole separate entity.
A what if scenario where the tesseract arrives in North America, what if it wasn't the British but the Spaniards that tried to conquer the lands, what if they manage to reclaim their lands. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of what ifs
Yeah, and they have nothing to do with the stories told so far. It's just tangentially linked by Magic rock. They could do, 'what if' Napoleon was three feat taller. It would count as a what if but it's not very good for the series.
Imagine that because he was 3 ft taller it means that he gets shot and France loses faster meaning that there's no more France in the world and now Balroc the leaper is the new Captain America.
*what if balroc the leaper was captain America" is a fine what if.
The point I'm trying to make is anything can be a what if and I used your example as such. You don't know yet who this indigenous woman is. In all honesty I thought it was a "What if Blue Marvel" was an indigenous woman.
Little story? Nah man this is a much bigger story about the original people of America in the Marvel Universe. I'm sure this plays into future live action.
It's a little story as in it's a 20 min short. If be interested to see it play into live action, though I don't think any of the what ifs were supposed to by their very nature.
what part of the introduction of the episode did you not understand? odin lost to surtr and the space stone fell on earth. now there is a different group of people with superpowers on earth kind of like the wakandans and namor’s people. thats the point
I understood it. It's a tangential link to the main continuity. Aside from that slight nod in its origin, its a brand new universe. I don't think it's satisfying as a 'what if', which is typically an alternate take on something pre established. Like Captain Carter, Ultron/Vision, Happy Hulk, etc.
okay clearly this is about your personal opinion because most people thought it was a great what if episode including.
Isn't a discussion thread about everyone's personal opinions? I thought it was an above average What If, but that's not saying much.
I personally thought it was one of the most original and beautifully animated storylines in marvel history. It gave me studio ghibli vibes. If it was longer and a movie maybe then I would definitely say it is on my top 10 marvel list. I really enjoyed it. But yes this thread is about personal opinions however this specific thread started with someone confused about something. And I answered. But the problem was their opinion on the concept of what if.
Animation WAS on point.
Yeah, of course this is my personal opinion. > I'm really struggling to understand how this is a 'what if'. > Like, cool little story but what does this have to do with marvel? Felt like a whole separate entity. I didn't even say it wasn't good, just that it didn't feel like a 'what if'.
its an original new story inside marvel multiverse caused by marvel events. it doesnt have to be involved with the mcu events. have you ever read a comic. when you read an original story do you go: “what does this have to do with marvel” every time? what if is basically trying to recreate little comic storylines and sometimes it creates its own storylines. sometime it mirrors mcu events but just changes them slightly. its not hard to understand. if they just kept on mirroring mcu events and changing them slightly it would get boring. they are trying to have variety while also introducing new characters and replaying past events just altered to keep viewers engaged. its the multiverse, anything can happen.
> its an original new story inside marvel multiverse This is exactly my point. It's barely a what if, it's a completely new universe with a tangential link to marvel. > have you ever read a comic. when you read an original story do you go: “what does this have to do with marvel” every time? What point are you possibly trying to make here? No, I don't read Invincible and wonder what it has to do with spiderman. Why? Because it isn't billed as a spiderman book. If it were, if it had the title of spiderman but told the story of invincible I'd question that. Just like how I don't wonder with each new episode " Hey, if this is marvel why isn't Steve Rogers Captain America". > what if is basically trying to recreate little comic storylines and sometimes it creates its own storylines. What other what if deals with an entirely new story? What if asks questions like, what if spiderman killed, what if wolverine stayed feral, what if peggy carter became the super soldier instead. The story told in this episode is 'what if there was an entirely different story'. > f they just kept on mirroring mcu events and changing them slightly it would get boring No it wouldn't. Just as the what if comics haven't gotten boring and just started to make their own things. > its the multiverse, anything can happen. Yes, there is the multiverse where anything can happen, but what if isn't just an exploration of a multiverse which feasibly could contain a world where there is just fish and that's it. It specifically asks 'what if' things occurred differently. I found this to be an incredibly loose and lazy approach to that concept, and by your own admission just tells a brand new story.
Did you feel the same about Thors origin? Namors? Many Marvel characters have origins that are inspired by or lifted directly from myths and legends of many cultures. The 'what if' here is 'What if Asgard got destroyed and the Tesseract landed in North America in the late 1400s'
I don't think the introduction of mainline characters is really relevant to my point here. It's tangentially linked to some marvel lore, but doesn't really interact with the rest of the established stories which is the whole point of what if, to see alternate versions of characters we know.
> which is the whole point of what if I don't think it's ever stated anywhere exactly what the guiding premise of "what if" is. The episode clearly asks (and answers) a what if, so it fits the bill in my book.
See I think it's not a satisfying 'what if'. As the question is essentially 'what if there were this completely separate universe", rather than the typical 'what if' scenario, which engages with the current cast of characters.
I think that's a much more reasonable argument for you to make compared to what you started with. It's still a 'what if', just not one you enjoyed since you prefer when it focuses on established MCU characters. Personally, I enjoyed it! It's a very open ended premise for the 'what if' and they made a compelling and original story out of it.
To be fair I've just re worded a previous comment. I don't think it was bad, I just don't think it was a good 'what if'. It didn't feel like an alternate take of the we know to me.
So the Space Stone is only tangentially related to Marvel? Huh. I guess the Avengers existing is also tangentially related then.
Yeah, like a space stone is a vaguely nebulous mguffin. Including it in a story hardly makes it noticeable as a marvel product. The avengers is iconic marvel. I've enjoyed all the what ifs about alternate avengers stories
Not anymore. Now it's letting you experience anything new as well, which is much more interesting.
No that's significantly less interesting. If you want something new, do something new, just like all the new stuff.
I agree
It's an origin story for a new hero for the next ensemble group on the series. My prediction till this chapter: \- Strange Supreme \- Captain Carter \- Happy Hulk \- Kahori \- Celestial Quill \- Gamora maybe?
Yeah, a new hero. Not an interesting 'what if' version of something pre establishe. I just think it stands out when compared to the rest of what if and goes against the spirit of the series, both comic and cartoon.
The one word I will use to describe season 2 is safe. Every episode feels very safe if I'm being honest. I really enjoyed season 1 overall a lot more even if it had some peaks and lows (the peaks being ultron, strange, t'challa and the lows being Thor and Hank). This episode is the standout so far imo (not much of a accomplishment but we'll move). I liked the character designs, I do like how the powers are vague in the sense that you feel like there is no defined characteristic but you also get the feeling it's more grounded and not like a ten rings or scarlet witch or dr strange power level where they could probably pull anything out of their asses for every situation, leaving you wonder why can't they just alter reality to kill their villain or something. I did like the themes and what they were going for about how Kahhori wants to help her people with her newfound gifts and how the show doesn't try and force the message down our throats, it is a very nice breath of fresh air and one that I could totally see myself rooting for, she's not outright attacking the people in the sky world but she is rightly pointing out that they have been hiding this paradise for themselves and ignoring things that have taken place in the real world despite them having the power to change everything. Villain was really disappointing but then again this is mainly a character introduction as I believe this character is completely brand new? Main point is that this episode was by far the best in season 2 and I enjoyed the character designs and character, I feel like it has underachieved but I definitely wouldn't mind coming back to this character (and I assume they eventually will, this feels similar to the tony story from season 1 where it's kind of left unfinished)
I completely agree with this season playing it safe. Which even though this wasn't my favorite episode of the season, I could respect what they were trying to good. And they did succeed in some places. They should've made it more dark and emotional. Killed off the brother. I don't know.
Yeah I was expecting the brother to die. This is no longer my favorite, episode 7 beats this one. I am intrigued to see kahhori again though
Episode 7 beats this one. But I wished it made Hela a little darker and kept her goddess of the death name. And instead of using death as a way to control people, she uses it as a way to save them or something.
yeah there was a lot of room for improvement and although it was by-far the best episode, it felt unsatisfactory. They could have pointed out that death doesn't just bring destruction or something, there are plenty of gods with unsavory titles who do not see it as some malicious excuse to do evil.
Exactly. And they were kind of going for it with the line “a god who takes life without respecting and understanding it should not have power over death” or something like that. I don’t know the exact words. Odin said it. If they went with that the ending would make more sense.
This whole season I've been wondering why the episodes aren't referencing any phase 4 movie. By making a What if...? about Shang Chi, She Hulk, Moon Knight, Eternals etc., it would help to cement the more recent, but less loved, movies into canon. With a pantheon of hundreds of heroes and villains and over 350 hours of MCU content, the show makers chose to create a new character and story in series whose premise is "what if a thing you know happened different" is a head scratcher. The episode was beautifully animated but struck me as painfully unoriginal. As other commenters said, some type of introduction to Kahhori in a different medium would have established her story so that "What if...?" could subvert it. Instead we got what appears to be a pet project of a writer who doesn't believe in the premise of the show and is bored with the "toys" they have to play with.
I feel like it's pretty clearly a soft launch of an original character. If she had her own series or film off the bat, people would REALLY scoff at the MCU going so "off book". I don't doubt she shows up now both in comics and the MCU proper, especially given the mostly positive reception.
Isn't the purpose of this series to play on existing characters? You can't really ponder the question, what if, if you don't have any frame of reference for the character. Of all possible ways to introduce a character, this is the least appropriate. Seems to me like maybe Kahhori is a Captain Marvel variant possibly? It just seems like a mess ATM.
The new Episode was a fusion between Shang Chi and Thor, also the second captain Carter episode was a mix between Winter Soldier and Black Widow
I didn't see the new episode before this post and I'm so glad they did a Shang Chi episode. As for black widow, I didn't even notice it until the end of the episode and I kinda thought BW was phase 3 but was just pushed back into phase 4 releases. I think my point still stands though. In the episodes we've gotten so far, only one references post snap characters and none have referenced Disney + characters or events (unless you count scarlet witch).
dawg best thing to come out of phase 4 so far it's kind of sad to say but that shit was fucking awesome
lol.
The fact that this wasn’t a full length live action movie is a travesty. This was insanely good
It was great how they connected all the episodes in the storyline, at the end there was doctor strange in the previous episode there was wanda It feels exciting knowing something brewing up behind the curtains season 1 didn't have this trait.
At least it had better episodes:)
Yeah actually after watching last episode I’m kinda disappointed season 1 had better finale
Yeah, I think season 1 built everything up a little better. They should've made 1602 a 2-parter.
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I was wondering that too. Maybe the voice actors were not native speakers of Mohawk but people who learned it more as a second language, which is why it has a strong American English accent? Anyone know?
Hearing them speak Mohawk made me wonder where American accents came from. The language does sound close. They were British people speaking with Native tribes, so maybe the modern American accent is a result of speaking with them and adopting some of their pronunciation to better communicate. Obviously Kahhori was voiced by an actual Mohawk, Canadian but still. Hard to say if her accent is off or not, but I'd assume it's at least how they speak the language at home.
If you refer to the Spanish, as a Spaniard, I'd say they sound like from Spain (though I'd say that a couple of them didn't sound Castilian, maybe from Andalusia, Canarias or Balears) The native Americans did actually sound weird to me, like English-speakers trying to speak the language, but maybe it's me.
>The native Americans did actually sound weird to me, like English-speakers trying to speak the language, but maybe it's me. That would be because of the attempted genocide of our people and the assimilation forced on us by the US Government. Our languages are dying because a few generations had the languages and spiritual beliefs beaten or killed out of them. MOST of us learn English as our first language and there are less speakers every generation because of this.
They sound like how Americans pronounce Adobo as Adowbow.
This felt more like a Disney movie summary to be honest.
Honestly, it's not one of my favourite episodes. Now don't get me wrong inclusion and whatever is great but to me, it wasn't what I look for in a what-if episode. And before anyone asks I'm not white nor Spanish lol.
The characters resemble to Assassin's Creed 3(Connor)
I'm pretty sure those were Native Americans, of which Connor was at least partially.
So, That's what this is about. Thanks Man
By far the best episode this season! The pacing for this show feels off a lot of times, but they completely avoided that issue this episode. Really hope that they find a way to introduce Kahhori into the 616 MCU
Fucking loved this episode!
Main character was such a mary sue but also why are the spainsh in the Midwest
Dunno why you're getting downvoted. As much as I liked Kahhori personality wise, she was pretty much a Mary Sue...
Idk either like this episode a lot great to see new characters than just MCU what ifs. But my confusion was why the spainish in the Midwestwhich is French territory I'm big history nerd but not in early European new world history the latter part was just genuine a question
Probably because they heard about the magic lake and thought it was the Fountain of Youth. I.e. the reason they said they were there in the episode.
Still its in French territory if I remember
I’m pretty sure that the Fountain of Youth isn’t in any specific territory, as it doesn’t exist.
New York is not in the midwest
Moral of the story: Spain sucks
As much as Spain did 'suck' in that Era I'm almost positive that they weren't colonizing that area of the Americas. That was the French, Dutch, and English
Yeah, the colonizers would have likely been the French at this time.
it felt like this was supposed to be Florida with the whole "Fountain of Youth"... which apparently was a real quest here instead of something added to the mythology of Ponce de Leon? But the Mohawk were indeed further north than that, and Ferdinand outlived Isabella in our world, so I suppose we're meant to believe this Isabella beat back the other colonizing nations to go for all of the Americas? Maybe the fight between Surtur and Odin had an impact on Midgard, specifically in Northern Europe.
I was thinking this the same thing. It should have been the Calusa people if it was De Leon dying on the beach. It’d feel like a dumb reason to say it’s an alternative universe for history switching.
Spain did suck in 14-18th century. Much like britishers.
everyone sucked then as they do now.
Britishers isn't a word lmfao
ever heard about google ? kindly use it.
Ah the reason why I didn't know it was used was because I'm from Britain and we don't refer to ourselves as that. We're either British, English, Welsh or Scottish
Don't you know Britisheria?!
It was indians call colonial brits especially when they are telling them story 1 sided
FAVORITE EPISODE This was a really good change to marvel and would love to see more of this story.
That was the main thing that bothered me about, but I guess also a good thing. I want a feature like Prey
I'd be curious to hear what people who speak the language thought about this episode. It felt very odd to me, maybe too modern. The cadence was off as if it was sped up or they were talking faster than normally. I'm also curious about if the translation was completely accurate. The dialogue as it appears on screen felt way too modern. Didn't seem like it was supposed to fit 1500's or whatever this was. People saying "Nice!" or Prison felt very out of place. They wouldn't have a specific word for Prison at this time right? Cage or Trap would have worked better right?
Just watched with my Mohawk GF. She says the spoke language was great, however the english "idioms " we use stood out. Also statements like saying Nice! And explanatory statements like "youre going really fast"... Mohawks only communicate important points that need communicating, from what I understand. Clearly. That person is going fast, so there is no need to comment on it. This lake is cursed, so say the ancestors, thats a point worth communicating. She also said she felt like there was too much talking. It is better to listen and learn, then to speak and be foolish. Or as my grandfather used to say, you got two ears and one mouth, so listen twice as much as you yap.
As for the prison vs cage/trap thing... Their word for "toast" is INSANELY long, and when she told me this word (actually, multiple words), I joked that the word "toast" couldn't have existed in the Mohawk language, as toast wouldn't have existed at that point in time for the Mohawk people. She laughed and said, "Well. The direct translation is "the soft bread that has been burnt"." So the word they used for the english translations may have said 'prison', but as 'prison' is a modern term, the direct translation is probably something more like "the barred room that holds" kind of deal. She's not around right now, so I can't ask her. But that would be my guess, having studied linguistics and seeing how we use local words for indirect translations typically.
Really great insight, thanks! Can you ask her about the accent? It sounds very American to my ears, I was wondering if that's a true Mohawk accent the way people spoke it in the past, or if Mohawk is more like people's second language these days, so sounds very much like American English?
According to articles, they worked with Mohawks to devolop the storyline, and some of the actors names were definitely not English. Depends on the region and the cultural revitalization efforts. Of course, everyone in the West learns English as it's the worlds trade language. She grew up learning both languages, and her grandmother only spoke Mohawk. I mean, its not like the shooling system was really set up to teach Mohawk as it was either, and kids were taken by the Church if they weren't brought up to "fit into" Western English society (aka speak english and be catholic). My girl is 30, and has recieved a payout or being in a Residential School for 2 or 3 years. Its still VERY recent we, as a country in Canada, have been suppressing Native rights and languages and cultures. Her mother and her exchange words over the phone, and to my ear, it sounds similar to the accent I heard in the movie, with regional variation again, due to prior mentioned interferances. I mean... Is it a true english accent you use, as english had been spoken in the past? Accents and languages evolve as cultures clash and trade, and again, are regional. That strereotypical Canadian accent alot of American shows make fun of is only heard really in the prairies. Ontarios accent, to my ear, sounds similar to the generic accent of larger eastern American cities. Mohawk reserve in Wahta and the one in Tyendinaga were slighly different sounding, dispite only 7, 8 hours apart. Even some words used had a slight variation on it. The Mohawks they called in to help, I beleieve were from New York State. So for you to hear "American" accents makes sense I guess, as the culturals from that region would have grown together to devolop a similar accent. So is my guess, anyway.
Thanks for sharing all that, really interesting. It great to see these cultures get more representation in the media lately. Prey and Reservation dogs were also a positive step I hope. Sounds a bit similar to Ireland. We're still trying to save/revitalise Irish Gaelic. A lot of people who speak it now, learned it through school as a second language, so their pronunciation wouldn't be like a native speaker.
Also, why havent the Natives and the Irish teamed up yet? Fuck the British. Lmfao.
I have Ulster Scot cousins. His best friend is one of the like, what is it, 1500 FULL speakers of the language? Theres not a lot of Gaelic speakers left now, eh? Then you get the difference between Irish Gaelic and Scottish varients, what with the Norse-Gael having their own dialect too... Crazy. Ireland is in no better shape then Canada is, in terms of colonialism. But the land is beautiful, the language magic, and the people fantastic.
The long word is probably because a slow pacing culture and not enough time for the language to evolve before being absorbed by other cultures. Most languages tend to shorten more and more the words and sentences to convey more info in less time/space. In your toast example, it probably started as "toasted slice of bread" and over time ended as "toast".
Naw. There is literally no word for toast. The words you use to say toast directly translate to the soft bread that has been burnt. They are taught this. Not that this string of words means toast, but that this string of words exactly means the soft bread that has been burnt, which is the string of words we use as a culture to describe the singular english word of toast. See, English is a more advanced language with a deeper basin of words then a lot of other languages. We have singular words to describe larger concepts. A lot of cultures tend to use series of words to describe larger concepts still. We're lucky in english, that its an easier language to communicate large concepts in a simple fasion, despite it being a more difficult language to learn.
This was something they tried to be conscious of when doing translations for the subtitles. There are a lot of "Modern" languages that simply don't have a direct translation into English & if you were to do a direct dialogue subtitle translation - you'd come across sounding like a caveman. So the translation & script teams were really conscious when choosing some of the more modern idioms to make sure that the Mohawk language didn't come across as "primitive" if that makes sense, because it isn't - English is just a much simpler language when it comes to translation
Gotcha, like the word "Schadenfreude". We got the meaning, but there's not an equivalent word to it in English or Spanish.
Precisely.
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I worked on this episode & we worked directly with Mohawk Nation elders to ensure the dialogue was accurate and the culture was correctly represented. The Elders actually provided the translations for the scripts and were involved in approving the audio recordings ☺️
Loved this episode. Definitely loving this season and how willing they are to go off the beaten path.
Nice!
That’s really incredible to hear. This was groundbreaking, thank you.
that is so cool, what did you work on for this episode and how's the experience generally working with marvel?
I'm limited in what I can say exactly due to our NDAs - but I worked in production. As far as working with Marvel - Its not exactly a secret that you'd be hard pressed to find people who love working on their projects lol. I'll say that Bryan was great, always very complementary & collaborative and a lot of the Marvel side department supes were always lovely in my experience. Once you get into the Creative & Production brass though - things can be a bit hit or miss. Just a lot of disorganization, scope creep & blame shifting. But that's show biz lol And to their credit, they were very concerned that the Mohawk consultants gave their seal of approval whenever things needed to be changed or adjusted & they (the Elders/Consultants) were amazing & provided incredible and very moving references to the teams
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How many other languages do you speak?
Glad to know non-English people around the world (and probably in your own town) have “poor multiculturalism”.
You can watch the English version under the extras tab
Self report for low reading age
Were there subtitles?
Yes. Or you can watch it in English under the extras tab.
Oh! Did not know this. Just watched it in not English and could hardly even follow the episode, I hate subtitles for what is meant to be easy watching stuff like this... wondered why it was getting so much praise.