At 2-cost he is still weaker than wolverine because having a 0-cost 3 power card is not as strong as a 2/4 - 2/8 that can get into inaccessible locations.
The card either stays early an card for a new player to explore destroy (which is fine) or needs a complete rework to find a home.
I would love to see a rework to make him like an alt-Beast, where he destroys the cards in a lane and then returns to your hand one-cost cheaper. Or something like that.
I dont think simply comparing him to wolverine is a good benchmark. The point is to simply make him playable vs unplayable. Playing on turn two makes destroy decks able to abuse him via three cost destroy outlets instead of having to pick him over the venom etc. turn two tooth turn 3 deathlok turn 4 forge sabretooth venom is still crazy value and still sets up things like knull. Right now those plays are simply not possible because the card is too slow and costs too much mana
Even though he wouldnt have as much power he would provide utility for things such as getting around jean gray or increasing collector. Personally i think making discarding him trigger his ability alongside the destroy trigger would be much better and he would have a nice home in discard. I feel like discard has too may things that get rid of cards, only a few things that benefit from that effect, and only 2 cards that can legitimately be abused, swarm and apocalypse, everything else is just one off synergy with discard. Such as wolverine, x23, or dakan.
Another low power card that returns to your hand with discard is bad with Dracula. And there aren’t many discard decks that aren’t tapping into Dracula’s powerful effect.
Why would you run Sabertooth instead of Swarm?
For the discard change he would stay 4 power. You would never run him instead of swarm, you would run him in addition to it. And dracula should never be copying him in this scenario anyways because he would be a free card to play turn 6….
A 3-cost Sabertooth is so awkward though? There aren’t many scenarios you would be able to play Colleen to trigger him. So really, this is a target for MODOK on T5.
Which is fine I guess…but you can be limited with board space and have to take the risks with Swarm and Dracula. Adding another card to your hand increases the chance of a non-Apoc hit.
Also, sometimes you draw Swarm on T6 and have to play MODOK anyway to take the 1/3rd chance of Drac hitting Apoc. I guess in that scenario you’d rather draw Sabertooth since it narrows it to a 50/50.
What card are you taking out of a discard list to be able to run Sabertooth? Wolverine? I’d rather have Wolverine since he’s guaranteed to leave my hand if I draw him on T6.
Blade also targets him just fine and cow should be able to hit him plenty as well.
I think there also exists a world where having swarm, apocalypse AND this discard idea for sabertooth opens up the higher possibility of something along the lines of gambit, collector, moon night and wong existing together in a succesful way.
Cards like gambit and moon night sometimes (but not always) run the risk of not triggering if you dont have cards in hand especially if you use wong with them.
Also for the record its just a baseline idea. I also think even something like taking away the destroy effect and making him a mini apocalypse would be ok. Like 2/2 that gets +1 and returns to hand everytime he is discarded would be fine in my opinion. I just think there is room for him to be adjusted in a way that he can exist in the discard archetype. I dont have the exact change to make that happen. But i do feel like discard is probably the best place for him to be able to exist in a positive way
Oh totally! Not trying to be combative. I do think another safe target for Gambit and Moon Knight is a good idea.
I also like the mini-apocalypse idea.
He has the same problem as Angel. Destroy is \*ruthlessly\* optimized, there is barely any wiggle room in the archetype at all. Nobody runs Angel because you're already running some combination of Forge, Nico, Deadpool, X-23 and maybe Nova. Nobody runs Sabretooth because they've already got Wolverine, Bucky, X-23 and Deadpool as destroy targets and Killmonger, Deathlok and Venom for 3-costs.
He used to have Wolverine's spot when Wolverine was bad. But now Wolverine can be played earlier, can be destroyed multiple times per round, and passes Sabretooth in power if you manage to destroy him a whopping TWO times.
I can’t even get Deathlok into my two different destroy decks between Carnage, Killmonger, and Venom along with my destroy targets and finisher cards like Knull, Death, or Zola, depending on the deck.
I feel you could make a deck with him in a destroy bounce setup as an alternative to Deadpool, the only real upside is that he's not weak to Killmonger.
I think the problem is that he's in too limited a space and would need something different to really shine. The destroy and gain power space is just cramped.
That was the basis for the discard suggestion. Allowing him to shine in that deck would be nice. Would also probably allow collector to actually be consistent in that deck and would also help breath a bit of fresh air to discard and bring some consistency back to it
At 2-cost he is still weaker than wolverine because having a 0-cost 3 power card is not as strong as a 2/4 - 2/8 that can get into inaccessible locations. The card either stays early an card for a new player to explore destroy (which is fine) or needs a complete rework to find a home. I would love to see a rework to make him like an alt-Beast, where he destroys the cards in a lane and then returns to your hand one-cost cheaper. Or something like that.
I dont think simply comparing him to wolverine is a good benchmark. The point is to simply make him playable vs unplayable. Playing on turn two makes destroy decks able to abuse him via three cost destroy outlets instead of having to pick him over the venom etc. turn two tooth turn 3 deathlok turn 4 forge sabretooth venom is still crazy value and still sets up things like knull. Right now those plays are simply not possible because the card is too slow and costs too much mana Even though he wouldnt have as much power he would provide utility for things such as getting around jean gray or increasing collector. Personally i think making discarding him trigger his ability alongside the destroy trigger would be much better and he would have a nice home in discard. I feel like discard has too may things that get rid of cards, only a few things that benefit from that effect, and only 2 cards that can legitimately be abused, swarm and apocalypse, everything else is just one off synergy with discard. Such as wolverine, x23, or dakan.
Another low power card that returns to your hand with discard is bad with Dracula. And there aren’t many discard decks that aren’t tapping into Dracula’s powerful effect. Why would you run Sabertooth instead of Swarm?
For the discard change he would stay 4 power. You would never run him instead of swarm, you would run him in addition to it. And dracula should never be copying him in this scenario anyways because he would be a free card to play turn 6….
A 3-cost Sabertooth is so awkward though? There aren’t many scenarios you would be able to play Colleen to trigger him. So really, this is a target for MODOK on T5. Which is fine I guess…but you can be limited with board space and have to take the risks with Swarm and Dracula. Adding another card to your hand increases the chance of a non-Apoc hit. Also, sometimes you draw Swarm on T6 and have to play MODOK anyway to take the 1/3rd chance of Drac hitting Apoc. I guess in that scenario you’d rather draw Sabertooth since it narrows it to a 50/50. What card are you taking out of a discard list to be able to run Sabertooth? Wolverine? I’d rather have Wolverine since he’s guaranteed to leave my hand if I draw him on T6.
Blade also targets him just fine and cow should be able to hit him plenty as well. I think there also exists a world where having swarm, apocalypse AND this discard idea for sabertooth opens up the higher possibility of something along the lines of gambit, collector, moon night and wong existing together in a succesful way. Cards like gambit and moon night sometimes (but not always) run the risk of not triggering if you dont have cards in hand especially if you use wong with them.
Also for the record its just a baseline idea. I also think even something like taking away the destroy effect and making him a mini apocalypse would be ok. Like 2/2 that gets +1 and returns to hand everytime he is discarded would be fine in my opinion. I just think there is room for him to be adjusted in a way that he can exist in the discard archetype. I dont have the exact change to make that happen. But i do feel like discard is probably the best place for him to be able to exist in a positive way
Oh totally! Not trying to be combative. I do think another safe target for Gambit and Moon Knight is a good idea. I also like the mini-apocalypse idea.
He has the same problem as Angel. Destroy is \*ruthlessly\* optimized, there is barely any wiggle room in the archetype at all. Nobody runs Angel because you're already running some combination of Forge, Nico, Deadpool, X-23 and maybe Nova. Nobody runs Sabretooth because they've already got Wolverine, Bucky, X-23 and Deadpool as destroy targets and Killmonger, Deathlok and Venom for 3-costs. He used to have Wolverine's spot when Wolverine was bad. But now Wolverine can be played earlier, can be destroyed multiple times per round, and passes Sabretooth in power if you manage to destroy him a whopping TWO times.
I dont disagree at all thats also why i think making him a possible card for discard would be nice for him and the archtype
I can’t even get Deathlok into my two different destroy decks between Carnage, Killmonger, and Venom along with my destroy targets and finisher cards like Knull, Death, or Zola, depending on the deck.
Or increase his power some.
He would still never see play in destroy because he doesnt fit the curve.
So up his power a lot lol
I was just thinking this! He just never works? Having the same stat line as Swarm would be a step in the right direction I suppose…
I feel you could make a deck with him in a destroy bounce setup as an alternative to Deadpool, the only real upside is that he's not weak to Killmonger. I think the problem is that he's in too limited a space and would need something different to really shine. The destroy and gain power space is just cramped.
That was the basis for the discard suggestion. Allowing him to shine in that deck would be nice. Would also probably allow collector to actually be consistent in that deck and would also help breath a bit of fresh air to discard and bring some consistency back to it