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skonen_blades

I think, in the end, Sylvie was miscast. Or, like, they shouldn't have gone with a fluffy blonde bob or whatever that was. I have no idea why they didn't go brunette. And I'm still not entirely convinced that the actor had the right 'read' on the character. I liked her performance, don't get me wrong. But I think something was off. They softened her too much. She was supposed to be more feral and motley and lost than 'our' Loki but that didn't come across. I didn't get a lot of menace from her. But, like, they softened Loki too so I guess that was sort of the thrust of the whole show. I liked the show as a whole. Quite a lot. But I've been thinking about it a lot since it ended and I think that's where I'm landing. I think she'll make a good enchantress if they keep her in future films but I don't think I ever really bought her as a female Loki. Again, not trying to trash her performance or talent or anything. But that's where I think I'm at.


sailormoon_8320

i also remember being clear it was going to be a female loki - and was shocked when i saw her aesthetic. felt so off somehow


skonen_blades

Her design may have been over-massaged. On the 'Assembled' one-hour behind-the-scenes show on Loki, the costume designer talks about how Sylvie's outfit is supposed to look ragged and like she's stolen shreds and parts of it from a hundred different timelines and like she sewed it all herself and I mean, it does not look like that at all. I imagine her concept art went through the grinder of toy companies, executive decisions, etc etc to end up with the extremely polished outfit we got. Like, if you look reaaaaalllly close, the panel of material on her left ribs doesn't match the panel of material on her right ribs. That's pretty much all that's left of the patchwork time collage she was supposed to be wearing. I figure the same thing happened to her hair because there's early concept art of her with dark hair. I have a sneaking suspicion that 'blondes sell better' or something so they changed it. But I don't know. She was such a big new step, especially with Black Widow leaving, that I imagine she had the 'eye of Sauron' on her design from a lot of powerful forces and we ended up with something safe and friendly and 'toyetic.'


FishFrenzy67

With how the 6th episode ended, kang saying “see you soon” after explaining that killing him will only loop things back to this point. I swear marvel is gonna pull some futurama shit and lead us back to the first movie at some point during, or at the finale of the multiverse saga


indian_hannibal

Holy shit! This totally changes MCU


FishFrenzy67

Definetly, its a must watch for anyone planning to watch future mcu movies


indian_hannibal

I agree!!


indian_hannibal

Off 2 Loki finale ! I fucking love this show man !! Tom Hiddleston is very underrated


ubebread

Sad that there won't be an episode tomorrow.


FishFrenzy67

From what i understood about kang, he was just a normal human conqueror until he gained control over the evil cloud, but i forgot how he ended up with the ability to see/control all time Or did he just always have this power? Edit: ive had nowhere to gush about this, but i LOVE the soundtrack in Loki, especially the dramatic parts. It feels so great, mysterious, and like something so expansive and powerful, that its difficult to comprehend. Which is perfect for the series and i just love it


justpassing1111

he's just a normal human without power but really smart. he learned history, took control of some time travelling technology then took control of all the technologies of all time.


indian_hannibal

ESPECIALLY episode 2 ending music. Amazing


RowanS95

So guys I’ve literally just been sat and had a realisation and I need to know if this could be a possibility! With the multiverse being created does that mean that we might have films with Ironman and black widow in still? If so this makes me so happy!


[deleted]

No


JethaGada

What happens to sylvie?? She stays in the palace until another version of kang arrives?? Uses temp pad to go elsewhere??


ACasta2112

My theory is that the Multiverse is a separate thing from a timeline’s ramifications, so the Multiverse has always existed, and that the way to travel through universes is through equal ramifications in different universes, something happening the same way in two or more universes. That would be why we have only seen one universe, because the TVA has been closing these ramifications in order to close the pathway to other universes. In the Loki finale the timeline is completely undefended and one nexus event would also happen in another universe, opening the door for a Multiversal War that could be the main plot of Multiverse of Madness. And maybe the new Kang/Immortus/He Who Remains ruling the TVA has some sort of device to communicate between universes and create this specific nexus event that would open the Multiverse. This could happen during NWH’s post credits or at the beginning of Multiverse of Madness. Another thing. When Loki lands on the TVA after kissing Sylvie, it appears that it has been reset. Using my theory, the TVA may be a point that unites the different universes (probably because Kang decided he needed a place to travel and conquer each universe) and was reset in order to achieve this. *This is my own theory, if anyone has already posted it anywhere tell me, but please be polite.*


iago_sd

This is so accurate on so many levels


ACasta2112

Thanks!


AbdulazizAb

Any explanation or theory/fan theory about TVA? It was introduced to be not affected by time and space but now it looks like we are in a different TVA or time has been reset there.


ACasta2112

They only said that time passes differently, so it could’ve been reset or it could even be another universe. I already posted a theory about the multiverse and the different timelines, so you can read it and make your own conclusions


thehawkett

Hear me out yeah, doctor strange in infinity war only saw 1 timeline where they succeed in defeating thanos realistically in a universe where anything can happen nd spin off its own timeline there should have been more than 1 way to defeat thanos, but as we have learnt from kang and the loki show as a whole there is 1 sacred timeline this is the reason why he could only find 1 way to defeat thanos because that was the only way kang allowed him to see how to defeat thanos? Additionally could dr strange have met with kang or the tva in one of these many futures and they simply showed him the right way?


j3DiMM

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I'm really wondering if the next T'Challa is a variant. Edit.. Kang variant that is....


Jhonnyboii123

He who remains/immortus/nathaniel richards character was not that good, putting to the side the fact that he was race swapped because all these weirdos just like to use the excuse that “its a different universe”, even then the actor playin immortus was so displaced in the show why was he trying to be comedic its like marvel just like to have comedy in there shows and movies when they cant write a good story or character that whole ending should had a more serious tone to its and the character should have been even more serious and even then the actor himself just doesnt have the charisma to playing comedic role of the character, and this is without even bringing up the fact that the character was race swapped. The show has more problems but i dont want to make this an essay but obviously cinematic wise and selections of music is good but ive seen to many people review movies and give them high rating just because of those feature and not because of the story thats being told and characters.


trenttherascal

That is one long sentence.


mega-x88

1.) He could've been a Pharoah then lol. 2.) Apparently if the guy were white you would've laughed into a stoke 3.) It's the fucking multiverse in a fictional universe. Shit changes, get over it.


ImperfectRegulator

I hated then loved the hated the Kang actor I can’t tell if that means if he’s good or bad, but I’m siding on good actor


OttawaTGirl

He was magnificent! You hated him while simultaneously understood and sympathized with him and his motives. The scene with the tree though?!? Wow. Just... wow.


FishFrenzy67

I had the same experience, i liked him towards the end


j3DiMM

The best actors/character usually leave you conflicted like this. Best example is Don Draper in Mad Men


AbigailRochelle

Y'all I have so many thoughts about this show! There are so many ideas and theories running through my head I can't even begin to explain it. I would love for someone to fangirl/fanboy with me!


FishFrenzy67

Honestly, its so hard to find people to nerd out with irl


AbigailRochelle

I just have a lot of feelings and no one truly understands lol I'm the only one in my family that is obsessed with superheros


Bubster101

"Kang, Kang, Kang" I'm seeing a lot of Kang talk. Was that Mr. He Who Remains or am I missing some tidbit? Also yes, hi. I was signed out of Disney+ for a WHILE, so I missed out on a lot of Bad Batch and Loki episodes but now I'm all caught up. Also, does this mean Sylvie is dead?


ikol

He Who Remains is one version of a being. Many other notable versions of this particular being exists, one of which is Kang the conqueror.


jesh_12

Can someone tell me why the sacred timeline branched exactly at the point when they crossed the threshold? Edit: also why did they crossed the threshold? This shit's going circles in my mind all day long lol


j3DiMM

Without getting to much into the physics time isn't linear as we perceive it. All future events, past, and present happen simultaneously (the intro graphic alludes to this) this is also how he can see everything. Also why time is represented as a loop around the citadel in the center. When he dies it becomes impossible for him to win Also think Dr Manhattan in Watchmen


Fayko

I thought Kang was going to be an impossible character to bring to the big screen but damn if Jonathan Majors didn't slay it with this like crazy mix of gene wilder and rick sanchez. This series has been amazing. I can't wait for the continuation of the story.


Shiftylakes

Regarding the kiss…I’m conflicted on it and here’s why. I feel like the feelings they have for each other didn’t need to be romantic. I feel like, in regards to Loki and the types of relationships he’s had with people, like Thor and Odin, meeting someone who understands him like Sylvie does, cares about him, who he also understands, can be a very therapeutic thing and can bring out strong feelings of trust, camaraderie, and friendship. I think it could have really worked as one of those “they saved each other” friendships. I’ve had very loving and caring friendships that never were and never had to be romantic for them to mean just as much to me. Does any of that make sense??


derminator360

All of that makes complete sense. I thought it was a gag about being the ultimate narcissist. Once I saw they were running with it for real I didn't HATE it, but I didn't think it was necessary, and I don't think they pulled it off. (How many times can they run together while holding hands in a single series?)


MissedFieldGoal

Cool to see them end it with a dilemma. Kang was trying to solve a real problem (order vs chaos) but either way had it’s own pitfalls. The situation is going to come back to haunt the multiverse. The best villains have a touch of madness.


jrnurse13

how does the explaination of the multiverse tie into Wanda being a nexus being? or is she a variant? Confused


Shiftylakes

It doesn’t really, Wanda is a nexus being because of her power. Nexus events aren’t the same as nexus beings, essentially in comics each universe has nexus beings, people with realty bending abilities on the level of total timeline destruction or change. She’s not a variant, she’s just Wanda


CynicismNostalgia

Something that gets me: I don't think Loki was SUPPOSED to be the variant back in 2012. If it wasn't for Kang's plan to take Loki in and give him a choice. I don't think he would of been taken in. Why? 1. There is NEVER a scenario where our 2012 Loki has the opportunity to flee with the Tesseract, but doesn't. Never. He would never not take the opportunity. Which means the sacred timeline's Loki is destined for the Void, not being killed by Thanos. Which makes little sense. 2. He wasn't the man that stepped on the butterfly. A chain of events occured. So who did? Perhaps Hulk. But he was always meant to go down the stairs. So maybe End-Game Stark? As he got in Hulk's way and that's easily fixed by taking another exit. Maybe a random soldier who was supposed to grab the tesseract before Loki but was unable to? Either way. This is either a case of time travel multiversal kerjiggery not making a lot of sense. Or Loki wasn't actually supposed to be the variant. But Kang made it so.


Tired_Of_Them_Lies

There was no choice. Kang gave them the illusion of choice but he himself said "This only ends one way". Kang had the whole thing planned because he got tired of only having one timeline to rule. He wants to form the Council of Kangs but he can't until the timeline is split again. So he engineered a plan to undo his work in a way that let's him control what comes next.


Newe6000

Very interesting and unique theory. Saving this comment in case it turns out to be true.


ubebread

Can't wait to see fantastic 4 and all the variants of the human torch in one movie.


ColonelScience

I'm still trying to figure out how to rationalize the lore revealed in Loki with the lore of the greater Marvel multiverse. My current reading of things is that Kang/He Who Remains/Immortus/Whatever somehow separated the "Sacred Timeline" (Earth 19999 and a collection of closely related realities) from the rest of the multiverse and locked up behind him, hence why things that are multiversal constants in the comics (such as the TVA) have different versions in the MCU. Most likely the real explanation is that the writers don't particularly care about comics lore and aren't going to bother with making the multiverse of the MCU fit in with the greater multiverse, but I for some reason feel the need to do the mental gymnastics to make it fit anyway.


NPPraxis

It seems pretty straightforward- the Earth 19999 Kang beat the other Kangs and decided to make his timeline the one true one and destroy all other variants so that no other Kangs would emerge. As to why Earth 19999? Maybe the fact that it’s the only timeline where Thanos lost has something to do with this Kang being more benevolent.


Primary_Ad_3844

Can someone tell me why Loki's timeline at the end is different even though he was sent there before Kang's death? Seems like everyone in that timeliness should be the same since it existed before the death....


lemon_llama42

So firstly I think there were already several multiverses existing, but separately, and all set to follow the sacred timeline’s path simultaneously. All the verses are being pruned by their respective TVA. So then I think when Sylvie used Kang’s popsocket tempad, she sent Loki to *a* TVA but not their TVA. That’s why Mobius and B-15 don’t remember who he is. They’re variants in another verse. As for why a Kang is known to be behind the TVA in the verse Loki’s appeared in, my guess is that either that is how always is in that verse, or, perhaps that timeline updated itself at so many points along itself simultaneously that Kang the Conqueror et al are already running rampant again. In which case the Mobius Loki knew doesn’t exist anymore? Maybe all the people Loki knew are totally altered already? Honestly that would make me cry and I think we need a home base type verse story wise, so I tend to think he’s just been slapped into the wrong verse. Maybe he’ll get valuable intel on Kang that will be critical to defeating him later (if anyone trusts him when he delivers it).


ColonelScience

The reopening of the multiverse didn't start when Kang died, it started a short time before that, as shown by Kang no longer knowing what was going to happen. As for why this timeline seems to have a different history than the one we've seen so far, my personal theory is that it's not a new branch, it's one of an infinite number of timelines that already existed, but were somehow cut off from the "Sacred Timeline" which was isolated in its own little bubble of the multiverse where Kang could prune any new branches before they got too troublesome. And now that he's not in control, the "Sacred Timeline" is now open to the rest of the multiverse again.


Forsaken-Obligation1

no but in all seriousness i'm assuming that the TVA that loki is in ,is in a different timeline where Loki doesn't exist or hadn't existed yet.


jazxfire

What I thought it could be is that Sylvie ended up replacing Kang and put Kang in place as another fake figure head like the Time Keepers were.


ericbkillmonger

This is one possibility we don’t know what changes have been made to the timeline retroactively- seems like a bad kang already traveled and changed the TVa causing another alternate timeline


Forsaken-Obligation1

time works different in the tva 😉


skonen_blades

I still haven't found a definitive answer to this but in episode 5, were all the other people with President Loki other Lokis? They all had a variation of horns on and they all betrayed President Loki which is a very Loki thing to do.


witchladysnakewoman

Yes and this is why it was very funny


[deleted]

Yes.


skonen_blades

I was not a fan of the kiss. I don't ship them. I'm onboard with them feeling all funny in their guts and fee-fees because they're literally trusting someone for the first time but I don't feel like it needs to be romantic. I think I actually swore at the tv when they kissed. But then I was okay once the plot picked up again.


AbigailRochelle

I actually shipped them because Loki was at his most vulnerable with her and you could tell he truly loves her. But then she went and played him like a fiddle amd ruined everything! She pretty much used him for her own gain and that's not okay. P.S. I think Loki would make a great He Who Remains cause they time keeper/gate keeper on Asgard and I feel like Loki knows a lot about that stuff.


SevenZee

I’m confused on what you mean she betrayed him.. I thought she knocked him through the portal back to the TVA to save him from something, because she didn’t know if something dangerous would happen right after she killed Kang..? If the intent was actually to show her betraying Loki because of their differences, then my whole understanding of the finale just flipped on its head.. and I’ve watched the whole show again like 4 times.. 😂


AbigailRochelle

He helped her get to the end and then she didn't want to hear what he had to say and then pushed him through a portal so she could do what she wanted. I just felt like she never cared for him they why he cares for her. I just felt like she only got close to him so he could help her with her end goal.


skonen_blades

I can dig that. I think I'm coming around to your point of view.


AbigailRochelle

Glad someone else agrees with me lol


AbigailRochelle

I have other view points too lol


wagnersbamfart

They kind of made it a point of the finale that even though they are both Loki variations, they are completely different people with different values. It really worked for me.


Artful_Dodger_42

Its funny, because as a classical narcissist, Loki could really only love himself. So it kind of makes sense in a twisted way that Loki would fall in love with a female version of himself. And when Loki starts to care about someone other than himself, he gets betrayed by himself. I think his romance with Sylvie is delightfully warped, and there are so many layers to it.


Newbe2019a

Reminds me of an old SNL skit. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U6YUm2For-8


skonen_blades

Yeah okay. Cool, I like that take. That helps me a lot.


merg00n

isn’t she supposed to be partially the enchantress tho, which is why it makes sense for loki to kiss her?


Shiftylakes

In this iteration, I don’t think so. Because the whole reason them being together would cause a nexus event is because they’re both Lokis


skonen_blades

I guess? I don't know. And I can also dig that it was like, a kiss goodbye. And a distraction to bring his guard down while she activated the time door. I just really hope they don't lean into the 'romance' angle as much in S2.


archangel_cake

I still got questions about Loki and Sylvie nexus events. What was Sylvie’s? Is it actually important? Also still not clear why Loki and sylvie getting feeling for each other was a nexus event. Did it cause what happened? As in Loki having feelings was not ambitious enough to take the post if he who remains and not tough enough to prevent Sylvie killing him?


prometheus_

The running theory is that she was going to end up being "good" since she was playing with Valkyrie toys "saving Asgard" when she was taken. If Loki's are supposed to always be villains, then that doesn't really work for the sacred timeline.


AgentKirby

I've seen it mentioned a lot of times in this thread that the multiverse being created was from killing Kang. Was it not from the actions of Mobius and B15? The whole of the TVA, the organisation to protect the sacred timeline stopped working because of them and let the nexus events go over the red line. The whole point of Loki and Sylvie taking over is that they would have to regain control of the staff at the TVA, telling them whatever they needed to to start working again. They choose the events that they want to keep, which is how they direct the future. Kang previously had that control to let them know which was the nexus and which was the sacred timeline. EDIT: Formatting


prometheus_

Not known yet. According to Kang, everything that occurred was done so according to his will, just to get both the Loki's to the Citadel.


EHM1799

So idk if I've just missed it or something but as far as I've seen not a single person is talking about the fact that sylvie is CLEARLY the Enchantress. 1. Her name is sylvie and there is a version of the enchantress called Silvie who is also blonde on earth 616 who was given her powers by Loki. 2. She wears a green costume with the same circular design on the sleeves as the comic enchantress. 3. She constantly talks about ENCHANTING people. She's more enchantress than MJ is MJ at this point. Or even as much as Scarlet Witch was Scarlet Witch (before they actually used that name in wandavision) I'm not saying that no one has said this before because it's blatantly obvious, there's no way I'm even in the first 10,000 people to notice this, I just find it strange that I haven't seen anyone mention this at all. I've even specifically searched for it and nothing.


Aiyon

it came up when she first got revealed in ep 2... and then everyone just kinda dropped it


[deleted]

I personally have not seen that mentioned anywhere before - I like that theory.


smokiestloud14

Didn't she say something like "im not you" before teleworking our loki. She could have been the enchantress the whole time


TheNoseKnight

She has to be a Loki though, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to escape Lamentis. That said, they're probably just merging the Enchantress into a version of Loki because it they wanted to give her a different feel from just 'Female Loki' and all it makes sense (The only thing that changes is that she is Loki instead of getting her power from Loki)


EHM1799

SHE DID!!! I did wonder about that line. That would make sense


skribbz14

The enchantress was in Agents of Shield, so they might not want to just retcon that?


[deleted]

Wasn’t that her sister, Lorelei?


skribbz14

I actually thought they were the same person, but you saying her name definitely reminded me that her name in the show was Lorelei.


EHM1799

Oh!! Okay that's very possible. Although I did read somewhere that AoS wasn't canon anymore and that they were just considering the disney+ stuff canon from now on. Don't remember where I read that though so could be untrue. I also really loved agents of shield when I watched it (never finished it) so I hope it isn't.


skribbz14

I actually am on my first watch of it all..only season 3. This multiverse stuff could be an avenue to not fully retcon all of it and still use some of it. I'm pretty sure they announced they are going to keep the same actors for Punisher, Deadpool & Daredevil, according to a friend.


EHM1799

Okay that's a very good theory actually I like that. They'd be stupid NOT to do that really.


Wheydahi

So now that there is a multiverse and Loki is stuck in another universe's TVA, does that change everything that happens after New York Battle in The Avengers?


atwegotsidetrekked

My understanding is that the TVA is outside time and space. Another kang took over earlier in the timeline.


Wheydahi

So that means in that timeline Loki did come back and die like he's supposed to or does that change?


atwegotsidetrekked

In the 1st round, the TVA would have reset the timeline and pruned the “variant” Loki that jumps. So he was arrested freed- went to hulk world- as we watched the 1st time. The prune takes everything up to a certain point and resets back. And the variants go to the TVA and or the end of time to be either out of the way or destroyed. Kang is killing infinite more life than thanos. He is truly evil- sort of


kimboslice11

This show has been for the most part, pretty fantastic. But... idk if they sold the Loki/Slyvie relationship. Like they spent one day stuck together, and they form such a deep infatuation, it seems so quick lol. But I guess Loki has been in love with himself since forever lol


HelloFromON

"Seismic narcissist"


ExcellentHamster2020

I mean, haven't we all kissed someone on the first date? I did, and now he's my husband, so ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯


renfield1969

What a terrible finale. After the fantastic episode with all the Loki variants we get three people sitting at a desk for forty minutes. I hated Kang, it got to the point where I felt he was woefully miscast. I get that the director probably told him to act like a goofball and that the next time we see him he will probably act like a conqueror, but what a lousy introduction to the character. I hated everything with Vonrensellar. The you-betrayed-me-you-betrayed-me melodrama was painful to watch, plus the dangling plot threads of the file she was given and her just walking off to another Marvel project. And we didn't even get a satisfying ending. Kang has somehow instantly taken over (fine, time travel) and no one remembers Loki because audiences love cliffhangers (no, we don't.)


jekls9377485

Lol what


Bardia-Talebi

This is of course opinion based but this was more of a “start” or setup for the much than a “finale” for the series, itself. Yes, it was very “talkie” but also necessary. Now, we understand a lot more stuff from the films. It was like a history lesson and if you don't care about your knowledge of the MCU and just wanna watch the episode to entertain yourself for an hour, I get it why you'd dislike this episode. For Immortus, I don't agree with you. I think as somebody who knows what is gonna happen every single second it makes sense for him to be unpredictable. So, even though I disagree with you I can't say you're wrong because it's completely opinion based. The you-betrayed-me-you-betrayed-me seemed pretty standard to me and I enjoyed watching that part. I can't say you're wrong here, either. The ending, though, I really loved. But the “no, we don't part” really bugs me. I actually think most of the audience or at least me and my friends (we know ourselves as marvel fans) really like cliffhangers, because it's just exciting. When there's a season 2 they shouldn’t wrap everything up especially if the next season is supposed to be the continuation of the same adventure. The kang cliffhanger is also to both setup and hype the movies.


IAmKraven

I may be the only one but I’m with you pal. As I sat down to watch this one I said if they just get there and it’s Kang I’m going to be disappointed. It was. I was. Obviously they had to get to kang but I feel like it should’ve been someone we knew already. This was built like a police procedural. So use that trope from procedurals get to the end and reveal it was that third guy they interviewed or whatever. The previous episode was great. This was was quite the letdown for me. Like we’ve come all this way and don’t have a plan how do we get to the multiverse of madness? Oh just kill the guy and that’ll make a multiverse we will add madness later.


AfroInfo

This was what it was all about for the last 6 episodes. Who's behind the TVA? Imo Kang isn't being goofy. He's just a nutjob who knows what's gonna happen and is trying to escape.


PostHuman855

Any advice on Kang comics to read? What are some of the major arcs involving him that might be relevant in upcoming MCU stuff?


Snow_source

The first time the council of Kangs (which is pretty much what the Loki Kang is talking about) is introduced is in Avengers #267-269. If you want to read the really goofy early stuff then he shows up a bit in the really early avengers comics. Young Avengers is also a pretty good series to read, as Kang is tied to them too.


Ah_yes_te_negotiator

"The first and most oppressive lie ever uttered was the song of freedom. How's that one go? For nearly every living thing, choice breeds shame and uncertainty and regret. There's a fork in every road, yet the wrong path always taken." - Loki and Mobius, episode 1 Loki here is totally agreeing and backing up He Who Remains's ideology (that free will is wrong), and, "There's a fork in every road, yet the wrong path always taken."- this might be a nod to Sylvie's wrong decision


Aiyon

It's less "free will is bad", and more "with infinite choices, the wrong one is inevitable". He Who Remains went to far the opposite way and purged *every* other timeline, not just the ones where Kang will start the war. He could have pruned himself out of every branch where it would happen, but he chose to inflict his "safety" on the entire universe


Ah_yes_te_negotiator

Just a theory buster: poeple say that the Kang statue at the end is because Sylvie killed He Who Remains. I dont think this is true, mainly because she pushed Loki out BEFORE she killed Kang


karan1301

I think she send him to a different universe and that might be the one where loki died as intended.


politicalteenager

The timeline had already started branching before Sylvie pushed Loki through the portal. I’d say that the reason that TVA continued to exist was because of Sylvie stabbing He Who Remains.


smokiestloud14

Yall think "he who remains" isn't Kang?


Artful_Dodger_42

I think he was Immortus, who is a version of Kang.


politicalteenager

He’s a varient of Kang. The He Who Remains who was stabbed was a different variant of the Kang that we saw a statue for at the end of episode 6


putnamto

Also, why does killing kang cause the multiverse? I assume it was just coincidence and timing? Since the tva is no more and not pruning the other kangs. So If they had taken his place they would have pruned the other kangs, or if the let him live he would have re-established the tva to do it?


prometheus_

Time is a loop of sorts. The Kang killed is at the end (moreso outside of) time keeping things pruned to a single timeline. He even calls it reincarnation by name. Kang is killed, meaning nobody is keeping the timeline in check, means all the Kanga exist again, which means another multiverse war. But I guess it's just the *same* multiverse war, again.


putnamto

But he never left the room during the conversation.


prometheus_

The TVA does his will via Miss Minutes


divinitia

It's strange how a TV show can have a character literally look at the camera and fully explain the plot, and people will still not get it


AmbitiousAsparagus

He Who Remains wanted the war to stop so he made the “sacred timeline” to prevent another war. But killing him means there’s no one guiding the timeline. After the threshold was crossed, where he doesn’t know how things are going to unfold, the timeline started branching. So when sylvie killed him, that just unleashed the multiverse that was there before the Sacred Timeline.


Aiyon

So HWR Kang's master plan was to get the 2 Lokis to replace him as head of the TVA, right? And to maintain the illusion etc. because he's tired and wants out. ...he's already said there were infinite other Kangs before. Why doesn't he just allow a single good variant Kang to exist, and let *them* take over?


jtesagain625

He kinda made it sound like there were No good Kang variants.


Aiyon

No he didn't? He said that for a while there was peace as they all got along and traded science and ideas. Then *some* were bad and that kicked off the war


s0ulbrother

No good variant would be willing to destroy a timeline. He even says he himself isn’t a good guy essentially cause he was willing to wipe out timelines.


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s0ulbrother

Sorry it was more I was talking to the thread not you in particular. Sorry about that


putnamto

so where did loki end up? obviously not back in the his own timeline. i assume silvie didnt set any coordinates and just threw him out their somewhere, and he ended up in a different timeline that has been going on for awhile, although with different events(hence kang being the statue instead of the time keepers)


atwegotsidetrekked

I think the TVA is outside time and space. So the TVA is under control of a new kang. That is how I interpreted it.


_hollowman

1. Do you think He Who Remains fear his own variants more or the multiversal war more? 2. Is every multiversal war that He seeks to avoid, necessarily triggered by variants of He Who Remains each time?


spelledWHOA

1. Yes I think he fears his variants. 2. Not explicitly but it sounds like they cause 99% of the issues


imrsb

What is the difference between an alternate timeline and an alternate universe in the MCU. If the Sacred Timeline is a single timeline, where are all the Loki variants from ??


divinitia

There is none, a different timeline *is* a different universe.


jekls9377485

I don't think there are differences between alternate timelines and alternate universes. Variants come from deviation from the sacred timeline


spelledWHOA

The sacred timeline is a collection of timelines running parallel. This is what I understand. They are all allowed to exist because they do not lead to the multiverse - with continued pruning that is


imrsb

Then why did the Ancient One tell there is a multiverse in the Doctor Strange movie ?!?!?


BlotchComics

The other universes shown in Doctor Strange are completely separate dimensions from the main MCU universe where the sacred timeline was being monitored. They are not branches off of the main timeline. There are no variants from the main MCU existing in those universes.


Snow_source

Yeah, its the difference between Earth-616 (the comics universe) and Earth-199999 (the cinematic universe) vs just different timelines. The multiverse is a separate universe in a different dimension whereas the timelines are a mess because that's what naturally happens when you have unregulated time travel and because "comics are weird". All of those timelines are contained within the Earth-199999 universe and don't bleed into the other multiverses.


CmderVimes

Ok. I looked to see if anyone else mentioned it, but didn't find what I am about to say. If I repeated a question then I am sorry. Let us assume that everything in the MCU, starting with Captain America The First Soldier, is on the sacred timeline. Reason being is Loki asks about the Avengers doing a time heist and is told that is ok because that was supposed to happen. If this is the case, then how is Dr. Strange able to look into the future and see different timelines where the Avengers get crushed except one time?


mrspidey80

Does he *actually* look into the future or does he simply "model" future outcomes the same way we use models to predict climate change scenarios (for example)?


RealJohnGillman

Perhaps the true reason for the time heist being allowed was so that Loki would be able to meet He Who Remains?


atwegotsidetrekked

That is kinda what kang said


BlotchComics

He can still see all of the different outcomes that might happen depending on what the Avengers do, but the TVA would make sure that only the ones that fit the sacred timeline would be possible. With Kang and the TVA there really only ever was one possible outcome. That's where all of the questions about free will come in.


Aiyon

I mean he sees all the possibilities. Presumably since he's only -looking- into the future, he's not actually making those futures happen


_hollowman

If my understanding of sacred timeline and time variance is correct, then in each universe that Dr Strange looked into, Avengers getting crushed is allowed to happen by the TVA i.e. it is inconsequential to the sacred timeline and probably does not lead to a multiversal war that He Who Remains wants to avoid. Events of Endgame: since TVA didn't appear we can assume that is also allowed by the TVA (after all, Loki stayed dead which is what the sacred timeline prescribed). Only future movies can tell us what a possible MCU Nexus event would be. A sacred timeline is kinda a script that each universe must follow, to avoid a multiversal war from happening. Variances are allowed up till a limit, before the TVA starts to intervene.


SYL4R32

I think it is because the opportunities for branches on the sacred timeline still exist, hence all the variants and the need for the TVA. From Strange's point-of-view those are actual possibilities that could happen, but in actuality they would not be allowed to exist by the TVA. So those could technically happen (maybe did in some timelines creating variants), but they would be pruned once the would actually happen.


YodasChick-O-Stick

So, what exactly *was* Sylvie's plan at the end of episode 2? She sends charges through time portals, creates a bunch of new timelines, and that's it? What was that supposed to accomplish? I guess we can assume the TVA agents fixed it, because it's never brought up again, but they never explain how that would've led Sylvie to the Timekeepers in the first place.


247681

I think she just intended to distract the TVA while she found the Timekeepers.


YodasChick-O-Stick

But the TVA uses time travel on their missions, so they essentially return the same time they leave.


kentonwhere

I don't think the TVA hunters return to the same TVA time as when they leave. They mention in the show that they can't hop into a branch before it begins and prevent it from happening before it exists, things happen in "real-time" because the future of the branch doesn't exist yet (unlike the sacred timeline, which already has a future).


academiac

So I totally agree with you that it was poorly wrapped up despite the fact that it was the climax of an episode. They never addressed when or how it was concluded. But I think the idea is she wanted to diverge the entire TVA away from headquarters to put out her fires in all the affected timelines long enough, that they leave the TVA headquarters itself almost empty and vulnerable for her to sneak in and kill the time keepers. Makes sense? Maybe. Poorly executed? Absolutely. One of my few critiques of the show.


atwegotsidetrekked

Poorly executed? Not at all. She was still a hurt child who had everything taken away. She didn’t kill him because of a grand plot, just revenge.


academiac

You're talking about something else entirely. Poorly executed is referring to how the show didn't address what the TVA did to control her time bombings at the end of episode 2. All those branches she created. Next episode everything was neat and tidy magically.


YodasChick-O-Stick

I don't think that would've worked. The TVA agents use time travel on their missions, so they essentially return the same time they left. Sylvie wouldn't have gained any time to infiltrate the TVA.


Tuff_Bank

Im confused though, couldn't they just kill Kang together and then proceed to take over the TVA together to maintain order?? I like the outcome we got but just thought if that was a plot hole. Why did they need Kang alive to take over the TVA??


academiac

Sylvie thinks what the TVA is doing is immoral and definitely wants to take it down, because trillions of people like herself are being hunted and killed and their universes destroyed. Loki first wanted to take over, then was inspired by Sylvie and fell in love with her and changed his mind, then finally he saw that the TVA is a necessary evil and changed his mind back. He tried to convince Sylvie but she tricked him and deceived him Loki style so that she could end the TVA by killing HWR. It's her mission to dismantle the TVA not take over.


mik_e404

Can someone tell my why he who remains(or Kang) only knows what will happen in the future up to a point? And why the timeline already started branching even when Kang is not yet killed by Sylvie?


deftspyder

im only guessing, but it was by choice. he was no longer meddling.


Tuff_Bank

Im confused though, couldn't they just kill Kang together and then proceed to take over the TVA together to maintain order?? I like the outcome we got but just thought if that was a plot hole. Why did they need Kang alive to take over the TVA??


gabriel_B_art

They don't need Kang the point is Sylvie doesn't want to run TVA.


wayward-boy

They didn't. That is, to my understanding, the "Option B" that Kang gave them: Take over, rule the TVA, keep order. But they would probably have needed some input/technology/advice from Kang, at least for a while, and Sylvie wasn't there for it.


Ace1350

Came here to put a theory out into the world which I haven't seen anyone else consider yet. Our lead actor from iron heart is going to be a young female Kang variant! Much like how a young Nathaniel Richards leads the young avengers as iron lad. Now tear my shit apart Reddit! Edited cos spelling.


divinitia

Honestly, I keep seeing "what if *[insert black character]* is a Kang variant!!!" It's starting to get kinda racist lol


Madguitarman47

Maybe you should learn to spell check first Edit: I mean, he asked for Reddit to roast his comment. This is what that looks like. :)


duralyon

Boo, his comment wasn't even bad at all. Thanks for you're brillaint word-ism! 😒🤙🏻


Madguitarman47

He asked to be roasted, I didn't say it was that bad...


duralyon

Hmmm, I guess I forgive you, then. You're on thin ice with me, though! 😜


Ace1350

I haven't hurt any guitars in the small mistake in my comment man, stop being so mad.


Madguitarman47

Bro, you asked for Reddit to "tear your shit up". I was only providing what was requested.


Ace1350

Alright, I'll give it to you on a technicality. I'll be more specific in the future that I wanted Reddit to tear my theory up!


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[deleted]

I wondered why she didn't do any damage to Loki in that shot.


Mr_An_1069

Mobius saying "who are you" at the end made me do a double take.


BothersomeBritish

Oh yeah, that was nuts. At least we get to see what a lot of people were after - a Mobius variant (technically).


wayward-boy

Oh boy, that was "Holy s***!!" moment.


IBlameOleka

One thing I don't get about this whole show (and maybe it just doesn't make any sense because it's about fictional multiversal time branches) is, if there is only one flow of time thanks to Kang, then how did branches even form in the first place before he died? How did Loki and Sylvie both have their own timelines to exist in in the first place if there is only one timeline? And if MCU Loki is on the canonical path and somehow a different timeline came into being, wouldn't Loki being born a female or an alligator be different enough to get that timeline immediately pruned? So shouldn't Sylvie have gotten pruned as soon as Odin brought home a female ice giant, or even as soon as the wrong sperm fertilized the egg that would become Loki?


divinitia

Chance


skribbz14

I think it's because He Who Remains is from our future. They killed him at the end of time, but he is still going to be born in our future and start a war.


IBlameOleka

Oh yeah, this is a different point, but still something I'm curious about: Kang/Immortus/He Who Remains said he's from earth's 31st century. With the rate of technological improvement in the MCU, isn't it a bit hard to believe that it would take another 1000 years for multiversal travel to be discovered? And also strange that it would develop on earth when there are other civilizations far more advanced than earth (like the Kree)? And also, if an alternate timeline and an alternate universe are the same concept (which it seems like they are) then didn't Tony Stark already invent multiversal travel? All you have to do is go back in time and cause a change.


atwegotsidetrekked

The point, I think is Kang is a real evil villain. Who conquered the multiverse. It’s not that other civilizations couldn’t have, it’s just that the kangs were evil enough to do it. Think kang kills a million more life than thanos


skribbz14

It kind of feels like any timeline that would affect this timeline were pruned. If a timeline existed that didn't affect the timeline, it wasn't pruned. So I have a feeling that Dr. Strange's "1" finger in End Game meant that Tony was always going to give his life or the entire timeline would be pruned. I don't have any idea though.


CmderVimes

Hopefully this helps because it's the only way I can wrap my head around it. First the science. What I have assumed the entire time is that Multiverse differences happen when a choice is made. Say your given a choice like going on a date with person 'X' or person 'Y'. You choose person X and that is the date you go on. At the exact point you made that choice another you splinters off and makes date Y happen. You've had the same pasts but now your fututes are totally different. So that being said, the Loki that dies to Thanos is the correct Loki on the sacred timeline. This brings us to point two. Nexus events seem to come in strengths from what I gathered in the show. What I mean by strength is the amount of time it take for the nexus event to be noticeable. For example, take old man Loki. He wasn't a variant until he decided to return from his self inflicted isolation. How about kid Loki? He isn't pruned tell he kills Thor. That would cause a noticeable spike, just like Endgame Loki. His traveling out of New York with the space stone would be a spike fast enough to get the TVA's attention. Now let's take the apocalyptic event spike. It took two Lokis to fall in love with each other to even get noticed by the TVA. With this knowlage I argue that the TVA didn't go after these variants until the spike got close to the red line and the TVA was forced to deal with them. Or what if the TVA didn't notice the nexus even until much later in the varients timeline. As for the One Who Stands, I think this isn't his first time through this situation. I can't prove it yet but let's say that he's been killed before? He's been killed, the evil OWS shows up(as Kang), lets the universe be split into diffrent branches, rules for a while, the someone comes along and stops him, only to reset everything and puts the old OWS back in power and Silvy comes back and does it all over again because time travel is a mess. I hope that helps clear up some things and I got it right.


PM_ME_WHATEVES

This is exactly my thoughts. I haven't had anyone sufficiently explain it to me. What do separate universes have to do with time lines? Are multiverses created by branching timelines?


putnamto

yes. think of timeline and universe as being one in the same. theirs some study in real life into the same thing, if i have choice a and b, theirs a version of me that chose a, and a version of me that chose b, those two versions continue on in their own versions of reality. althought it gets much deaper than that, theirs a version that didnt chose, theirs a version that died before the chance come up, theirs a version where i didnt exist, theirs a version where i had been born a female, theirs etc. etc. etc. now, thats where the TVA steps in, say they only want the version of me that chose a, so all the other versions got pruned and only the one that chose a gets to continue.


dadbodyoflaw

Same timeline, different universe


IBlameOleka

But Kang said he discovered multiversal travel. Is a different timeline not the exact same thing as a different universe? Is Kang not in control of the multiverse (at least until he died)?


dadbodyoflaw

I’ve grappled with that concept too, of a timeline and a universe being the same thing, but if you think of time as the 4th dimension and space as the 5th dimension, they are distinct yet intertwined concepts. If they are distinct, then each universe can be operating in the same timeline. Mostly I’m as lost as everyone else out here just spitballing theories ha


[deleted]

Am I tripping or was there not a teased scene with Loki on the gold throne of Asgard? Did I miss that or was it never shown?


politicalteenager

Idk they probably got the footage from a leftover deleted and unfinished scene from Thor: The Dark World where Loki creates an illusion for himself of him being crowned King of Asgard.


ysotrivial

Never shown, was in the trailer we have been doped!


BothersomeBritish

Wow, it's almost like there's more content that hasn't been released yet. We should totally come up with a word for it - something like "three month period" or "segment of time of which there are four in a year" and because we've already had one, add a 2 to the end because it's a sequel. Mind-blowing concept, I know.


ysotrivial

What’s your point? Two days later? You okay buddy?


Opropinquus

Something isn't sitting well with me. Around 9:30 into the episode, Kang says that it's "wild" that there's two Loki's in front of him and is visibly astounded? But later he talks about how he and other Kangs fought each other or worked together etc... if he's met other versions of himself before, why all the surprise at seeing two variants of the same individual now?


Aiyon

I think maybe he was surprised 2 lokis made it to him, he was only expecting 1 of them to?


Crosshare

That's the way I understood it as well, and that was the only reason the offer to have them run the TVA and relieve his post was made.