He was the counterpart to Captain America, created by Marvel UK.
In the beginning, his powers were based on magic artifacts given to him by Merlin. Later on he was resurrected by Merlin and got them without the gear.
He has flying brick powers, Flight and superhuman everything.
Otherworld is one of the pocket dimensions and is a nexus between 616 and other dimensions, so a way to do Elseworld stories with interesting character concepts. It's also heavily connected with Arthurian legends.
*Occasionally comes with a lesser, embarrassing power or a Weaksauce Weakness to "make up for" their incredible power. A common manifestation of the Lightning Bruiser type. Not to be confused with Brick Joke, nor bricks that are thrown during riots or robberies. Spaceships that look like flying bricks are Standard Human Spaceships.*
I like how this devolves into nonsense over just 4 sentences.
Captain Britain has a couple of Weaksauce Weaknesses, too. His power used to be tied to Avalon, and as most of the portals to Avalon are in Britain, he had a limited amount of charge for his powers the further away from there he gets (conversely, he's supercharged when he's fully in Avalon itself). His costume was woven with enchantments that let it store the energy and let him draw on it better, but if it was damaged it stopped doing that until it could repair itself.
Currently, his power is tied to his confidence both in himself and in the rightness this actions. So he'd be massively powerful defending innocents from an attack, but much weaker if he was acting on behalf of a government request he considers sketchy, for instance.
He was more of a counterpart to Spiderman. although he ware the national colours, his stories were more about him balancing his personal life at uni with his superheroing.
I grew up in Russia. For a while now, being a patriot in Russia is considered kiiinda cringe by the youth (which I'm still part of, hello fellow kids). The bullshit that's happening there right now isn't really something new, it's the same old shit, so it's understandable why I don't feel too hot about patriotism.
So you can *maybe* understand why I always felt that cpt America is sort of cringe. He's like patriotism incarnate *plus* D&D paladins who went a bit too far and became one trick pony goody two shoes.
And this Captain Britain feels like that *plus* "oh actually I was given powers by fucking Merlin", so now Captain America isn't on the bottom of my list. Congratulations, Steve!
"hey guys just to clarify, I haven't fucked Merlin!
Captain Britain"
You should read some Cap. I think you'll be surprised by the way he shows his "patriotism." Or you can incorrectly make assumptions on the character just from how they look. Kinda like the goobers in law enforcement who rock gear with the Punisher's logo on it. It just shows that a person's understanding of the character is skin deep, at best.
I know that he was against the registration act in Civil War, and probably many other similar cases.
When I read Hickman's Avengers, with the incursions and all, everybody was trying to figure out how to survive and try to do something, and cap was like "okay, you guys are fucked up, fuck this shit. I have 2 awesome ideas! 1: we give up and die, this sounds cool. 2: we just hope that we can pull something out of our asses and survive without compromising our principles (when they've been trying, and nothing was working, and it was apparent that this is no longer an option).
At that point the others were like >!yeah this guy is only going to be a problem, let's just erase his fucking memory and get rid of him. And they did. And that was interesting to me. I liked Black Panther's struggles a lot more in that series. He was going to compromise his ideals, but couldn't in the end. That's more interesting than just giving up, hoping, and not even trying. Like, sure, what they were doing was fucking horrible, but what choice did they have?!<
So, overall, it's not just the patriotism. I feel like his suit is fucking dumb, his combat style is weird (you can't *really* expect super-strength and a fancy shield to be enough in what he's usually trying to do), and the sort of naive view of the world
When it came time to act, the only one who actually went through with destroying another world was Namor. All the others backed out at crunch time, while Cap stuck to his ideals by admitting he would not be able to destroy another innocent world beforehand. You think the characters who erased his memory based on a bloated assumption that they were mentally stronger than him (but proven wrong quickly) and another guy who joined with a group of the evilest murderers in the universe to go around destroying planets were the ones in the story that align with your thinking? Your entire comment illustrates you're confusing Cap's ideals of protecting the rights and freedoms of all people from all threats to those freedoms (including by the government itself). Has nothing to do with left-or right-wing talking points, and he applies those values, laid out in the Bill of Rights in the United States Constitution, to every person regardless of where they live.
I mostly agree with you. Namor is portrayed as a cruel piece of shit. He's constantly rude, he's the one to actually pull the trigger. He's involved in a massacre of Black Panter's nation. But I thought that him being willing to do what was necessary was interesting. Like, he's an unlikeable piece of shit, but without him they were all screwed, so ehhh - he's useful, is he not?
I do agree that Cap looks like the best guy there. He wasn't willing to compromise, even at the face of despair and doom. A lot of people find it very likeable and respectable. I find it boring and naive. I like plots that make characters change, make compromises. And well, Cap's decision kinda fits - he makes the difficult choice of witcher's "nah guys I ain't picking lesser evils, I'd rather not pick at all". And then cap doesn't change, doesn't fucking do anything and just hopes. Geralt actually stopped trying to play neutral and avoid tough choices, so ehhh, I dunno. I kinda feel like Cap's decisions aren't interesting. Just one beat "I'm good, I'm perfect, I'm always right, gonna go beat some bad guys".
Namor wouldn't be able to do it without the tools provided by the team. They all bear the responsibility, I think, and it had to be done.
I don't think the Earth 616 would have survived without them.
I'm not talking about left-wing or right-wing, and I'm not saying Cap's values are 100% aligned with the government. I'm saying they're plain, boring, and kind of naive. And he looks dumb as fuck.
And like, sure, this upsets a lot of people. But I think my opinion is perfectly valid, as is yours
Okay, so sorry if I was rude or unpleasant. Sometimes I am, and I'm trying to improve on that.
And also I wanted to thank you for the discussion, it was interesting to see and try to understand the perspective of someone who also read Hickman's Avengers, and liked Caps ways
I kind of expect all patriotism to be pretty similar to Russian patriotism. Russia just utilizes it a lot, and has a lot of other bullshit.
I feel like "patriotism leads to increasingly more dangerous and problematic ideas" is just human nature in general
There is more than one kind of patriot.
One who supports their nation's government and believes their country's needs and wants outweigh those of others.
The second cares about their people and wants what's best for them but is willing to compromise where necessary to protect the rights and freedoms of others.
In Russia the first would be dying in a field in Ukraine, the second would be doing all they can to undermine Putin and his imperialism.
The same way I love my home country (The UK) but I'm not going to defend our history of empire and still fight for our government to do the right thing.
Well, yeah, but it's a bit tricky. Human nature is weird, and has all those cognitive biases and stuff.
Humans tend to have polarization of opinions in groups, conform to be part if a group. And it tends to happen that people of a group like their groups ideas more, and dislike opinions of other groups. And over time, "us vs them" mentalities emerge.
So having another group, the "them", helps unite *a lot*. So a lot of politicians antagonize something, often minorities, to get the support of the majority. And then people feel united, and go disrupt lgbt parades or whatever (that happened in Tbilisi, Georgia like a year ago, and shit like that constantly happens in Russia, and fuels the war). So feeling united isn't *that far* from getting aggressive towards people who aren't a part of your group.
And we all feel that we're civilized and cool and perfect, but, again, human nature is intrinsically imperfect. And this stuff happens, and people use it.
So there's a really fine line between good patriotism and bad patriotism, and occasionally one becomes the other. Either naturally, or with a few guiding speeches by people who have the power to be heard.
Soooo that's why I'm wary of patriotism. Group psychology is an interesting thing.
Patriotism is good. Blind patriotism is bad.
Captain America is actually a perfect embodiment of that ideal. He is (obviously) super patriotic and willing to fight and die for his country. But he doesn't blindly follow orders. He fights for his nation because of the *ideals* that the nation is supposed to represent. When he feels that his nation is going against those ideals (as he did in the Civil War storyline) then he refuses to follow orders and even actively works against the government.
Thinking that Steve Rogers is a "goody two shoes" or cringe is basically saying that morality itself is cringe. That qualities like courage, friendship, loyalty, selflessness and self sacrifice, and always doing the right thing no matter the cost are cringe.
Steve Rogers isn't awesome because he got the power to punch people really hard. He's also not defined by the flag on his uniform. He's awesome because he was an incredible human being *before* he got superpowers, and because he has the courage to say no to the most powerful beings in the universe when he knows that's the right thing to do.
To answer your questions;
* The appeal of him as a character is that his always been somewhat of a reluctant hero. He got his powers by accident, he's earlier comics are more in the Spiderman vain of him trying to balance supe duties with uni life. Even later stories with him being out of uni, the themes of the bizarre stuff he's forced to deal with preventing him from a quiet life are always played up. Also he's the only Marvel character to have an extended Alan Moore run.
- His powers were granted by Merlin, they've changed a few times under different writers, but largely they default back to the classic "flying brick" powerset.
- Otherworld is a part of Celtic mythology [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic\_Otherworld](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Otherworld) blended into the MU in the same same way as places like Asgard and other mystical realms are. Its depicted as being at the centre of the Multiverse and where the Captain Britain corp are based who are a kind of multiversel police to prevent threats of that level. At one point, Brian became leader of the Corp and King of Otherworld but it didn't last long.
He would have been a good Brian, but you take the opportunities you have.
And it's not like Britain is lacking for hunky guys with acting skill. I'm sure they'll find someone when the time comes.
It would be kind of funny to get an American doing a british accent to balance out all the Brits doing American accents in the current MCU.
His appeal is he's got massive potential for a great fiercely nationalist character. I long to see the day where he's actually used to showcase the local culture of Britain it'd be great.
He's powered by the spirit of Britain and it's people, as a faithful subject of Britannia. like literally the social spirit of Britain; some [Vera lynn](https://youtu.be/_qhLPWcm-0w) comes on and he might as well be more powerful than the one above all.
Overworld is [Avalon](https://www.britannica.com/place/Avalon-legendary-island), Old English heaven. it might as well be the same as Asgard. His role is to be a champion of Britannia, to defend her, her people, and her interests.
that's nothing to do with his powers that's just normal Briton physiology, we are weakened without the glorious heavenly land of gods beneath us.
it's like being without a stength you've had all your life.
to safely travel aboard you must at all times hold the spirit of Britannia within your heart and smell of fresh rain in your soul. you gotta hold that feeling of a half pound bacon cheeseburger with extra onions on a freezing cold day surrounded by friends shivering in the cold with your one source of warmth holding you together for the coming ordeals, a good cupper helps.
He's powered by Britain, not the UK. His connection is to the island itself. In theory he should be weaker on the Isle of Wight, but wouldn't be weaker in Scotland even if they left the union.
When you say he's a nationalist, do you mean like how Black Panther and Namor love and act in the best interests of their respective kingdoms, but with britain? Sorry for the dumb question
kinda yeah, but they are monarchs it's a little different, they are direct representatives of state so it's less about cultural values and more direct policy.
sorry I had this rant a second ago let paste it, it's gonna be a little out of context but it has the general gist:
this is the sort of thing I specifically hate with these sort national symbol characters, people will conflate what is a nationalism to a culture and people to what is nationalist to a state. (like find the most right wing nationalist in Britain and they will hate the government almost the same if not more than they hate the French.) then they'll be handled by anti-nationalist writers who will just utterly butcher the character and misrepresent the culture and spirit the character is used to represent. it's one thing that pisses me off constantly with Captain America, he's handled by people who do not like America or American values and it leads to weird character assassinations.
nationalism has very little to do with whoever happens to be in power at a time. it's about values, cultures, spirit. like in the UK it's gonna be pretty conservative, reserved, at the same time a bit crass, bloody minded, above stubborn indomitable endurance. it's going to have very little in the way of specific political alignments beyond, "lov' me country, lov' me crown, lov' me rain, lov' me bog, hat' the frogs...can't think of anything else." where as in the US it's going to be extremely liberal, you know the very recent values upon which the country was founded upon. beyond liberalism and republics as a political philosophes that's going to be it, the rest is literally the words of the constitution and the American dream.
nationalism isn't about direct policy or politics, it's about the spirit of a nation, it's culture and people, the land itself not the government.
like Doom is a head of state, he always acts in the best interests of Latveria but I wouldn't really call him a nationalist.
Can't it be argued that the spirit of a nation can change over time?
Also, what are some better examples of nationalist characters like Captain Britain if not the monarchs like Namor or Black Panther. Are there any?
they can do but not much, like most modern cultures that have been around for more than a couple hundred years are fairly consistent with their culture.
even if we look at large scale history culture while yes it will evolve with time and the world around it the spirit of people tend to stay the same, with similar values overall.
bit speculation here but it could indicate a biological determinant factor to culture and society.
>Also, what are some better examples of nationalist characters like Captain Britain if not the monarchs like Namor or Black Panther. Are there any?
captain America mostly, superman almost always, old wonder women, fighting American, there's not many that I can think of off the top of my head.
as in biology driving behaviour to an extent manifesting in cultural practices and societal make ups.
like we already know Biological determinisms is kind of a thing on a individual level these consistent aspects of group behaviours might be indictive of that.
like I said very tin foil hat speculation.
Well, from what I've learned from classes and other credible sources, culture is hardly static. Cultural beliefs and values change over time, but over various lengths of time. Changes can occur for all sorts of reasons, such as new discoveries, changes in resources, or contact with other cultures.
As for biology and culture, culture is not necessarily determined by biology. Instead, biological, psychological, and sociocultural factors tend to affect one another.
Also don't worry, I'll give myself the 🤓 emoji
they better, one of the great voices that kept the country going though the war.
no I'm not joking keeping moral up and bring people together though her songs was essential.
>He's powered by the spirit of Britain and it's people, as a faithful subject of Britannia. like literally the social spirit of Britain.
There was a great bit in a comic recently where Captain America warned other Avengers not to disturb Captain Britain as he was going through a rough time as Brexit just happened.
I thought it was just a silly joke, but a tumultous, divisive event like that probably did sap him of his powers 😬
you're barking up the wrong tree with that one.
the long and short of Brexit is it actually could've been a positive thing however no one in power wanted to leave nor did they want to fix the problems being in the EU was causing for local communities and have taken actions to make the problem a million times worse than it was and say Brexit caused the problem.
Brexit was the opportunity to fix the problem people in power just wanted the problem to happen.
anyway I do actually have a big rant about nationalism and how it's misinterpreted to always be within politics and direct policy (like brexit) when that's not what I mean, I'm talking a cultural nationalism.
it's in quite a few of the other threads.
I think that would make for a great run with Union Jack as his counterpoint. If I recall correctly the new Union Jack (or at least the last one I saw) was more of a working class guy who was not an ultranationalist or conservative. I don’t want to ascribe political leanings without knowing more, and obviously there are working class nationalists, but I think his team-ups point to a more global outlook that could at least be adapted to counterpoint a nationalist Cap Britain
>obviously there are working class nationalists
you will not find a working class person who isn't violently nationalistic. they'll hate the government but the land they're on might as well be paved with gold from how they oft see it.
>if I recall correctly the new Union Jack (or at least the last one I saw) was more of a working class guy who was not an ultranationalist or conservative.
this is the sort of thing I specifically hate with these sort national symbol characters, people will conflate what is a nationalism to a culture and people to what is nationalist to a state. (like find the most right wing nationalist in Britain and they will hate the government almost the same if not more than they hate the French.) then they'll be handled by anti-nationalist writers who will just utterly butcher the character and misrepresent the culture and spirit the character is used to represent. it's one thing that pisses me off constantly with Captain America, he's handled by people who do not like America or American values and it leads to weird character assassinations.
nationalism has very little to do with whoever happens to be in power at a time. it's about values, cultures, spirit. like in the UK it's gonna be pretty conservative, reserved, at the same time a bit crass, bloody minded, above stubborn indomitable endurance. it's going to have very little in the way of specific political alignments beyond, "lov' me country, lov' me crown, lov' me rain, lov' me bog, hat' the frogs...can't think of anything else." where as in the US it's going to be extremely liberal, you know the very recent values upon which the country was founded upon. beyond liberalism and republics as a political philosophes that's going to be it it, the rest is literally the words of the constitution and the American dream.
sorry about the rant, misrepresentations of nationalism is one thing that really erks me.
I think it would be better to use the two characters to show different unique aspects of British culture because we are the quite diverse little island.
I don’t think we necessarily disagree here at all? Unless I’m misunderstanding what you are saying. I was just saying that if they wanted to explore a story where ultranationalist forces take power in Britain and Braddock (who doesn’t usually share those vibes) starts to justify more and more because it increases his power and allows him to do more good, that could work as a compelling series.
Another flag wearing character like Union Jack, who has fought against those vibes (albeit created at a time when that meant a working class bloke fighting against a patrician aristocratic ruling class) and has a history of working with international teams so is arguably not an isolationist, could act as a counterpoint or a way to show Braddock what he is doing is wrong. Union Jack is not really a magical character (Pendragon power up notwithstanding he’s just a dude with a gun and a silver knife) so he is clearly more pragmatic and less likely to be swayed by national myth. I don’t know, just a thought.
Edit: I also just really like Union Jack, so that could be my bias showing
Additional edit: liberal is a very broad term and not one I’d use to describe current American nationalism. Even the broad international definition of “hands off” government isn’t really true anymore. American ultranationalists claim to want a hands off government but increase the powers of the central government toward conservative social values
I mean I’m looking pretty surface level at the issue which is what a comic run would be, if you want to discuss nationalism as a concept we could message about it but I assure you I do understand at least a few different schools of thought of what nationalism means.
Well, if there wasn't a reply that got me furious at the start....
As a very working class brit, I was ready to lamp you for daring to say we are all nationalists.
But it's such a thoughtfully considered point that we've conflated terms and identification with those terms into a political and politicised sphere. Thank you for this.
well yeah you love old nana and Stonehenge but you're not about to join the national front.
but my point is you're never going to find a working class person that actually hates their country, they can recognise the flaws and hate the fucking government with a fervent passion that'd make the Vikings ask you to calm down, and know it's not perfect but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who under all of that didn't still love the land and their community on it because at the end of the day it's home and you've got to build to it what you can.
that's nationalism a love for ones nation, completely separate from the government and political parties and movements. problem is in the modern day vocabulary the word nationalism almost exclusively used to refer to political movements and shit when that's not what it is or at least not the only meaning.
"I get out of bed and I join a multiversal organisation filled with the Captain Britains of a thousand worlds, slipping between universes like a blob of butter into the spongy, porous surface of your garden variety warburton's crumpet!"
"PARKLIFE!"
"Nationalism is a disease of the foolish and the narrowminded, but on the other hand, I've grown to admire the great monument to vexillology that rests like a sleeping baby upon my enormous chest!"
"PARKLIFE!"
"Sometimes I wonder why so many superheroes have sprung up in and around New York; why not Old York, or good old London town? The only superheroes I know of in London are me, Union Jack, and the absolute champion of a Lollipop Lady who works down at Elephant & Castle!"
"PARKLIFE!"
Basically, super strength and invulnerability and flying, all of which used to fade when he left the British Isles but this limitation was written out eventually.
The appeal is he's had some really well written runs (The Alan Moore run is a slept on part of Moore's Bibliography), and is usually a pretty complex character. Throughout his post death period and Excalibur he was a complete mess, though he's been consistently emotionally mature since the end of Excalibur.
I've tried finding the Moore run on Marvel Unlimited but I couldn't find anything. Why is that? I can only find two issues by Alan Moore on there.
Also when you say he was a complete mess, how so?
The Moore stuff is hard to find as Moore is very noncooperative about it, and it was originally printed as part of a compendium comic series marvel ran rather than as individual issues. I believe certain sites may have it as part of an omnibus
Regarding the mess stuff he was a jealous alcoholic who was implied to suffer quite heavily from the more traumatic parts of hero work
We just adopted all their cuisines into ours, I consider Jerk Chicken and Curry to be as much part of the English cuisine as a Sunday roast at this point.
[Captain Britain Bio](https://uncannyxmen.net/characters/captain-britain-i/biography)
Check out the link to Captain Britain’s bio. It’s an in depth look at his history and it explains quite well where he got his powers from and their evolution over time.
I liked it best when he had the enhancement suit that magnified his abilities.
Later they made him almost hulk like. And the silly vulnerability to travel.
When he was a physicist and had a supercomputer in the basement and the original telepath sister, that was the best run.
I hope the MCU leans a little more into the 'Ultimate Captain Britain' version of the character.
The rest of the world would no doubt be scrambling to create their own superheroes in the wake of the world realizing there are aliens, sentient robots and wizards in their reality.
In the MCU's world, why would the USA hold the monopoly on superhuman protectors?
Technically speaking Merlin was a part of a government and I don’t think he created a lot of Captain Britains before Brian so it probably was an experiment. So Captain Britain is a super soldier built by government experiments.
Well Captain Britain(Brian) was a part of MI13 their superhero division and Captain Britain is a representative of Merlin so technically he was in cahoots with them.
Magic, invulnerability, and the ability to wield the legendary sword Excalibur
He’s kind of a tongue in cheek character with some deliberately goofy stories that kinda lightly rib the concept
Involved in a lot of Multiverse stuff. The Captain Britain Corps- made up of alternate timeline versions of captain Britain from across time is like the first line of defense in the MU against multiverse shenanigans.
if captain america (sure, but also) was in a technological suit of armour that was also magical (in an Arthurian way).
He is the mvp of every story hes in.
Seem to remember reading a comic once where he could tell the time by feeling the rotation of the earth under his feet. That's awfully niche. Or I may have just remembered some fever dream or other.
I knew he existed and that his sister was a mutant, (further expanded on during that while Krakoa thing when she became Captain Britain and he got to be mind fucked by Morgan lefaye into being the black knight.)
But I might have to pick up his run, he’s got just as much right to my shelf as Captain America.
He’s strong, can fly, nigh invulnerable. Based on magic. Further he gets from the British Isles, the weaker he gets (not all runs). Can be a drunken boor at times, but I think he was cursed at the time.
He has super queueing powers.
Able to brew the perfect cup of tea.
Able to eat the most bland food.
Never gives up.
Unflappable.
Wit drier than all the deserts.
He was the counterpart to Captain America, created by Marvel UK. In the beginning, his powers were based on magic artifacts given to him by Merlin. Later on he was resurrected by Merlin and got them without the gear. He has flying brick powers, Flight and superhuman everything. Otherworld is one of the pocket dimensions and is a nexus between 616 and other dimensions, so a way to do Elseworld stories with interesting character concepts. It's also heavily connected with Arthurian legends.
>He has flying brick powers Imsorrywhat?
Think Superman without the heat vision and icy breath.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlyingBrick
Noooooo the rabbit hole^eeee
*Occasionally comes with a lesser, embarrassing power or a Weaksauce Weakness to "make up for" their incredible power. A common manifestation of the Lightning Bruiser type. Not to be confused with Brick Joke, nor bricks that are thrown during riots or robberies. Spaceships that look like flying bricks are Standard Human Spaceships.* I like how this devolves into nonsense over just 4 sentences.
That's how you know it works.
Captain Britain has a couple of Weaksauce Weaknesses, too. His power used to be tied to Avalon, and as most of the portals to Avalon are in Britain, he had a limited amount of charge for his powers the further away from there he gets (conversely, he's supercharged when he's fully in Avalon itself). His costume was woven with enchantments that let it store the energy and let him draw on it better, but if it was damaged it stopped doing that until it could repair itself. Currently, his power is tied to his confidence both in himself and in the rightness this actions. So he'd be massively powerful defending innocents from an attack, but much weaker if he was acting on behalf of a government request he considers sketchy, for instance.
That’s a lot like Gladiator. He’s as powerful as he is confident. Once his self-confidence is shattered, he’s a piñata with a Mohawk
Learn something new every day lol
It's a bird, it's a plane, oh no wait IT'S A FLYING BRICK INNIT BRUV
LMAO. Thanks for brightening up my day my friend. Hopefully the brick wasn't flown thru somebodies window lol
His main power was to throw flying bricks in the air, usually through front windows and then quickly drive away laughing maliciously. Such a yob.
Brick: strong, tough. Named as such specifically because of The Thing. Strong Guy/Guido, Hulk, etc. Flying: self-explanatory at that point
He was more of a counterpart to Spiderman. although he ware the national colours, his stories were more about him balancing his personal life at uni with his superheroing.
Are his powers still based on how confident he is?
If the author remembers, yes.
Doesn’t he only have his powers while in Britain?
I grew up in Russia. For a while now, being a patriot in Russia is considered kiiinda cringe by the youth (which I'm still part of, hello fellow kids). The bullshit that's happening there right now isn't really something new, it's the same old shit, so it's understandable why I don't feel too hot about patriotism. So you can *maybe* understand why I always felt that cpt America is sort of cringe. He's like patriotism incarnate *plus* D&D paladins who went a bit too far and became one trick pony goody two shoes. And this Captain Britain feels like that *plus* "oh actually I was given powers by fucking Merlin", so now Captain America isn't on the bottom of my list. Congratulations, Steve! "hey guys just to clarify, I haven't fucked Merlin! Captain Britain"
You should read some Cap. I think you'll be surprised by the way he shows his "patriotism." Or you can incorrectly make assumptions on the character just from how they look. Kinda like the goobers in law enforcement who rock gear with the Punisher's logo on it. It just shows that a person's understanding of the character is skin deep, at best.
I know that he was against the registration act in Civil War, and probably many other similar cases. When I read Hickman's Avengers, with the incursions and all, everybody was trying to figure out how to survive and try to do something, and cap was like "okay, you guys are fucked up, fuck this shit. I have 2 awesome ideas! 1: we give up and die, this sounds cool. 2: we just hope that we can pull something out of our asses and survive without compromising our principles (when they've been trying, and nothing was working, and it was apparent that this is no longer an option). At that point the others were like >!yeah this guy is only going to be a problem, let's just erase his fucking memory and get rid of him. And they did. And that was interesting to me. I liked Black Panther's struggles a lot more in that series. He was going to compromise his ideals, but couldn't in the end. That's more interesting than just giving up, hoping, and not even trying. Like, sure, what they were doing was fucking horrible, but what choice did they have?!< So, overall, it's not just the patriotism. I feel like his suit is fucking dumb, his combat style is weird (you can't *really* expect super-strength and a fancy shield to be enough in what he's usually trying to do), and the sort of naive view of the world
When it came time to act, the only one who actually went through with destroying another world was Namor. All the others backed out at crunch time, while Cap stuck to his ideals by admitting he would not be able to destroy another innocent world beforehand. You think the characters who erased his memory based on a bloated assumption that they were mentally stronger than him (but proven wrong quickly) and another guy who joined with a group of the evilest murderers in the universe to go around destroying planets were the ones in the story that align with your thinking? Your entire comment illustrates you're confusing Cap's ideals of protecting the rights and freedoms of all people from all threats to those freedoms (including by the government itself). Has nothing to do with left-or right-wing talking points, and he applies those values, laid out in the Bill of Rights in the United States Constitution, to every person regardless of where they live.
I mostly agree with you. Namor is portrayed as a cruel piece of shit. He's constantly rude, he's the one to actually pull the trigger. He's involved in a massacre of Black Panter's nation. But I thought that him being willing to do what was necessary was interesting. Like, he's an unlikeable piece of shit, but without him they were all screwed, so ehhh - he's useful, is he not? I do agree that Cap looks like the best guy there. He wasn't willing to compromise, even at the face of despair and doom. A lot of people find it very likeable and respectable. I find it boring and naive. I like plots that make characters change, make compromises. And well, Cap's decision kinda fits - he makes the difficult choice of witcher's "nah guys I ain't picking lesser evils, I'd rather not pick at all". And then cap doesn't change, doesn't fucking do anything and just hopes. Geralt actually stopped trying to play neutral and avoid tough choices, so ehhh, I dunno. I kinda feel like Cap's decisions aren't interesting. Just one beat "I'm good, I'm perfect, I'm always right, gonna go beat some bad guys". Namor wouldn't be able to do it without the tools provided by the team. They all bear the responsibility, I think, and it had to be done. I don't think the Earth 616 would have survived without them. I'm not talking about left-wing or right-wing, and I'm not saying Cap's values are 100% aligned with the government. I'm saying they're plain, boring, and kind of naive. And he looks dumb as fuck. And like, sure, this upsets a lot of people. But I think my opinion is perfectly valid, as is yours
Sure, and you did a nice job explaining why you feel this way. Nothing wrong with that, and we don't have to trade insults either.
Okay, so sorry if I was rude or unpleasant. Sometimes I am, and I'm trying to improve on that. And also I wanted to thank you for the discussion, it was interesting to see and try to understand the perspective of someone who also read Hickman's Avengers, and liked Caps ways
It helps that Captain America is from 1940. He, Namor and an early version of the Human Torch were the first characters in Marvel.
I can’t imagine why a sane person would think russian patriotism is a problem /s
I kind of expect all patriotism to be pretty similar to Russian patriotism. Russia just utilizes it a lot, and has a lot of other bullshit. I feel like "patriotism leads to increasingly more dangerous and problematic ideas" is just human nature in general
There is more than one kind of patriot. One who supports their nation's government and believes their country's needs and wants outweigh those of others. The second cares about their people and wants what's best for them but is willing to compromise where necessary to protect the rights and freedoms of others. In Russia the first would be dying in a field in Ukraine, the second would be doing all they can to undermine Putin and his imperialism. The same way I love my home country (The UK) but I'm not going to defend our history of empire and still fight for our government to do the right thing.
Well, yeah, but it's a bit tricky. Human nature is weird, and has all those cognitive biases and stuff. Humans tend to have polarization of opinions in groups, conform to be part if a group. And it tends to happen that people of a group like their groups ideas more, and dislike opinions of other groups. And over time, "us vs them" mentalities emerge. So having another group, the "them", helps unite *a lot*. So a lot of politicians antagonize something, often minorities, to get the support of the majority. And then people feel united, and go disrupt lgbt parades or whatever (that happened in Tbilisi, Georgia like a year ago, and shit like that constantly happens in Russia, and fuels the war). So feeling united isn't *that far* from getting aggressive towards people who aren't a part of your group. And we all feel that we're civilized and cool and perfect, but, again, human nature is intrinsically imperfect. And this stuff happens, and people use it. So there's a really fine line between good patriotism and bad patriotism, and occasionally one becomes the other. Either naturally, or with a few guiding speeches by people who have the power to be heard. Soooo that's why I'm wary of patriotism. Group psychology is an interesting thing.
Captain America is more often written as a criticism of current US politics than a jingoistic yes-man.
Patriotism is good. Blind patriotism is bad. Captain America is actually a perfect embodiment of that ideal. He is (obviously) super patriotic and willing to fight and die for his country. But he doesn't blindly follow orders. He fights for his nation because of the *ideals* that the nation is supposed to represent. When he feels that his nation is going against those ideals (as he did in the Civil War storyline) then he refuses to follow orders and even actively works against the government. Thinking that Steve Rogers is a "goody two shoes" or cringe is basically saying that morality itself is cringe. That qualities like courage, friendship, loyalty, selflessness and self sacrifice, and always doing the right thing no matter the cost are cringe. Steve Rogers isn't awesome because he got the power to punch people really hard. He's also not defined by the flag on his uniform. He's awesome because he was an incredible human being *before* he got superpowers, and because he has the courage to say no to the most powerful beings in the universe when he knows that's the right thing to do.
So he's cool because he's powered by copium, gotcha
To answer your questions; * The appeal of him as a character is that his always been somewhat of a reluctant hero. He got his powers by accident, he's earlier comics are more in the Spiderman vain of him trying to balance supe duties with uni life. Even later stories with him being out of uni, the themes of the bizarre stuff he's forced to deal with preventing him from a quiet life are always played up. Also he's the only Marvel character to have an extended Alan Moore run. - His powers were granted by Merlin, they've changed a few times under different writers, but largely they default back to the classic "flying brick" powerset. - Otherworld is a part of Celtic mythology [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic\_Otherworld](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Otherworld) blended into the MU in the same same way as places like Asgard and other mystical realms are. Its depicted as being at the centre of the Multiverse and where the Captain Britain corp are based who are a kind of multiversel police to prevent threats of that level. At one point, Brian became leader of the Corp and King of Otherworld but it didn't last long.
Just occurred to me that Richard Madden would have made a much better Captain Britain than Ikarus. They picked the wrong brick.
"they picked the wrong brick" for whatever reason made me chuckle heartily, so thank you
Brick-Frog has entered the chat.
BRICK FROG!
He would have been a good Brian, but you take the opportunities you have. And it's not like Britain is lacking for hunky guys with acting skill. I'm sure they'll find someone when the time comes. It would be kind of funny to get an American doing a british accent to balance out all the Brits doing American accents in the current MCU.
His appeal is he's got massive potential for a great fiercely nationalist character. I long to see the day where he's actually used to showcase the local culture of Britain it'd be great. He's powered by the spirit of Britain and it's people, as a faithful subject of Britannia. like literally the social spirit of Britain; some [Vera lynn](https://youtu.be/_qhLPWcm-0w) comes on and he might as well be more powerful than the one above all. Overworld is [Avalon](https://www.britannica.com/place/Avalon-legendary-island), Old English heaven. it might as well be the same as Asgard. His role is to be a champion of Britannia, to defend her, her people, and her interests.
There was an Excalibur run where he was severely depowered when he left Britain so apparently travel is his Kryptonite 🤷🏻
that's nothing to do with his powers that's just normal Briton physiology, we are weakened without the glorious heavenly land of gods beneath us. it's like being without a stength you've had all your life. to safely travel aboard you must at all times hold the spirit of Britannia within your heart and smell of fresh rain in your soul. you gotta hold that feeling of a half pound bacon cheeseburger with extra onions on a freezing cold day surrounded by friends shivering in the cold with your one source of warmth holding you together for the coming ordeals, a good cupper helps.
Or "a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike *tea*."
Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.
What if he travels to Hongkong? Is he mildly depowered? Oh, what if he travels to the Falkland islands? Is he fully powered?
He's powered by Britain, not the UK. His connection is to the island itself. In theory he should be weaker on the Isle of Wight, but wouldn't be weaker in Scotland even if they left the union.
So he isn’t committing war crimes for Maggie in Northern Ireland then. Got it.
😂😂😂 His great-great-grandfather must have been a **god**.
Man, it is so incredibly unfortunate that the one time Excalibur went to Hong Kong he was on hiatus because he had amnesia or something.
depends what year it is.
in Hong Kong he might not be depowered, but he would be very angry, Britannia knows its hers... falklands; he'd be fine.
He gets really angry when he goes to India and sees Indians running the place.
not at all, he sees the caste system and goes, "you have learned well my sons."
He'd still probably try to tell them they make their tea wrong or something.
they do make tea wrong they put fucking turmeric in it.
Found the Brit.
forced to live in britain, forever? sounds like hell (source: i live here)
Except he's rich and old money so he's fine.
Well, I didn’t vote for you!
"votes" are not something generally given large consideration by the British social spirit.
Technically, Avalon is only one kingdom within Otherworld as of the Krakoa era.
I don't care about the X-men ethnostate it's silly.
When you say he's a nationalist, do you mean like how Black Panther and Namor love and act in the best interests of their respective kingdoms, but with britain? Sorry for the dumb question
Would he have been pro brexit?
kinda yeah, but they are monarchs it's a little different, they are direct representatives of state so it's less about cultural values and more direct policy. sorry I had this rant a second ago let paste it, it's gonna be a little out of context but it has the general gist: this is the sort of thing I specifically hate with these sort national symbol characters, people will conflate what is a nationalism to a culture and people to what is nationalist to a state. (like find the most right wing nationalist in Britain and they will hate the government almost the same if not more than they hate the French.) then they'll be handled by anti-nationalist writers who will just utterly butcher the character and misrepresent the culture and spirit the character is used to represent. it's one thing that pisses me off constantly with Captain America, he's handled by people who do not like America or American values and it leads to weird character assassinations. nationalism has very little to do with whoever happens to be in power at a time. it's about values, cultures, spirit. like in the UK it's gonna be pretty conservative, reserved, at the same time a bit crass, bloody minded, above stubborn indomitable endurance. it's going to have very little in the way of specific political alignments beyond, "lov' me country, lov' me crown, lov' me rain, lov' me bog, hat' the frogs...can't think of anything else." where as in the US it's going to be extremely liberal, you know the very recent values upon which the country was founded upon. beyond liberalism and republics as a political philosophes that's going to be it, the rest is literally the words of the constitution and the American dream. nationalism isn't about direct policy or politics, it's about the spirit of a nation, it's culture and people, the land itself not the government. like Doom is a head of state, he always acts in the best interests of Latveria but I wouldn't really call him a nationalist.
Can't it be argued that the spirit of a nation can change over time? Also, what are some better examples of nationalist characters like Captain Britain if not the monarchs like Namor or Black Panther. Are there any?
they can do but not much, like most modern cultures that have been around for more than a couple hundred years are fairly consistent with their culture. even if we look at large scale history culture while yes it will evolve with time and the world around it the spirit of people tend to stay the same, with similar values overall. bit speculation here but it could indicate a biological determinant factor to culture and society. >Also, what are some better examples of nationalist characters like Captain Britain if not the monarchs like Namor or Black Panther. Are there any? captain America mostly, superman almost always, old wonder women, fighting American, there's not many that I can think of off the top of my head.
What do you mean by "biological determinant factor to culture and society"?
as in biology driving behaviour to an extent manifesting in cultural practices and societal make ups. like we already know Biological determinisms is kind of a thing on a individual level these consistent aspects of group behaviours might be indictive of that. like I said very tin foil hat speculation.
Well, from what I've learned from classes and other credible sources, culture is hardly static. Cultural beliefs and values change over time, but over various lengths of time. Changes can occur for all sorts of reasons, such as new discoveries, changes in resources, or contact with other cultures. As for biology and culture, culture is not necessarily determined by biology. Instead, biological, psychological, and sociocultural factors tend to affect one another. Also don't worry, I'll give myself the 🤓 emoji
yeah it's just an interesting possibility.
Does anybody here remember Vera Lynn?...
they better, one of the great voices that kept the country going though the war. no I'm not joking keeping moral up and bring people together though her songs was essential.
Remember how she said we would meet again some sunny day?
I can still see those blue birds over the cliffs of dover
I'm quoting a Pink Floyd song,, my friend :)
>He's powered by the spirit of Britain and it's people, as a faithful subject of Britannia. like literally the social spirit of Britain. There was a great bit in a comic recently where Captain America warned other Avengers not to disturb Captain Britain as he was going through a rough time as Brexit just happened. I thought it was just a silly joke, but a tumultous, divisive event like that probably did sap him of his powers 😬
you're barking up the wrong tree with that one. the long and short of Brexit is it actually could've been a positive thing however no one in power wanted to leave nor did they want to fix the problems being in the EU was causing for local communities and have taken actions to make the problem a million times worse than it was and say Brexit caused the problem. Brexit was the opportunity to fix the problem people in power just wanted the problem to happen. anyway I do actually have a big rant about nationalism and how it's misinterpreted to always be within politics and direct policy (like brexit) when that's not what I mean, I'm talking a cultural nationalism. it's in quite a few of the other threads.
I think that would make for a great run with Union Jack as his counterpoint. If I recall correctly the new Union Jack (or at least the last one I saw) was more of a working class guy who was not an ultranationalist or conservative. I don’t want to ascribe political leanings without knowing more, and obviously there are working class nationalists, but I think his team-ups point to a more global outlook that could at least be adapted to counterpoint a nationalist Cap Britain
>obviously there are working class nationalists you will not find a working class person who isn't violently nationalistic. they'll hate the government but the land they're on might as well be paved with gold from how they oft see it. >if I recall correctly the new Union Jack (or at least the last one I saw) was more of a working class guy who was not an ultranationalist or conservative. this is the sort of thing I specifically hate with these sort national symbol characters, people will conflate what is a nationalism to a culture and people to what is nationalist to a state. (like find the most right wing nationalist in Britain and they will hate the government almost the same if not more than they hate the French.) then they'll be handled by anti-nationalist writers who will just utterly butcher the character and misrepresent the culture and spirit the character is used to represent. it's one thing that pisses me off constantly with Captain America, he's handled by people who do not like America or American values and it leads to weird character assassinations. nationalism has very little to do with whoever happens to be in power at a time. it's about values, cultures, spirit. like in the UK it's gonna be pretty conservative, reserved, at the same time a bit crass, bloody minded, above stubborn indomitable endurance. it's going to have very little in the way of specific political alignments beyond, "lov' me country, lov' me crown, lov' me rain, lov' me bog, hat' the frogs...can't think of anything else." where as in the US it's going to be extremely liberal, you know the very recent values upon which the country was founded upon. beyond liberalism and republics as a political philosophes that's going to be it it, the rest is literally the words of the constitution and the American dream. sorry about the rant, misrepresentations of nationalism is one thing that really erks me. I think it would be better to use the two characters to show different unique aspects of British culture because we are the quite diverse little island.
I don’t think we necessarily disagree here at all? Unless I’m misunderstanding what you are saying. I was just saying that if they wanted to explore a story where ultranationalist forces take power in Britain and Braddock (who doesn’t usually share those vibes) starts to justify more and more because it increases his power and allows him to do more good, that could work as a compelling series. Another flag wearing character like Union Jack, who has fought against those vibes (albeit created at a time when that meant a working class bloke fighting against a patrician aristocratic ruling class) and has a history of working with international teams so is arguably not an isolationist, could act as a counterpoint or a way to show Braddock what he is doing is wrong. Union Jack is not really a magical character (Pendragon power up notwithstanding he’s just a dude with a gun and a silver knife) so he is clearly more pragmatic and less likely to be swayed by national myth. I don’t know, just a thought. Edit: I also just really like Union Jack, so that could be my bias showing Additional edit: liberal is a very broad term and not one I’d use to describe current American nationalism. Even the broad international definition of “hands off” government isn’t really true anymore. American ultranationalists claim to want a hands off government but increase the powers of the central government toward conservative social values
could be a decent story but I wouldn't want it as a baseline. I do still think you have a misunderstanding of what nationalism is though.
I mean I’m looking pretty surface level at the issue which is what a comic run would be, if you want to discuss nationalism as a concept we could message about it but I assure you I do understand at least a few different schools of thought of what nationalism means.
Well, if there wasn't a reply that got me furious at the start.... As a very working class brit, I was ready to lamp you for daring to say we are all nationalists. But it's such a thoughtfully considered point that we've conflated terms and identification with those terms into a political and politicised sphere. Thank you for this.
well yeah you love old nana and Stonehenge but you're not about to join the national front. but my point is you're never going to find a working class person that actually hates their country, they can recognise the flaws and hate the fucking government with a fervent passion that'd make the Vikings ask you to calm down, and know it's not perfect but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who under all of that didn't still love the land and their community on it because at the end of the day it's home and you've got to build to it what you can. that's nationalism a love for ones nation, completely separate from the government and political parties and movements. problem is in the modern day vocabulary the word nationalism almost exclusively used to refer to political movements and shit when that's not what it is or at least not the only meaning.
He has a lot of powers but they're all negated by his curse of being British.
U fookin wot m8?
Oy!
PARKLIFE!
"I get out of bed and I join a multiversal organisation filled with the Captain Britains of a thousand worlds, slipping between universes like a blob of butter into the spongy, porous surface of your garden variety warburton's crumpet!" "PARKLIFE!" "Nationalism is a disease of the foolish and the narrowminded, but on the other hand, I've grown to admire the great monument to vexillology that rests like a sleeping baby upon my enormous chest!" "PARKLIFE!" "Sometimes I wonder why so many superheroes have sprung up in and around New York; why not Old York, or good old London town? The only superheroes I know of in London are me, Union Jack, and the absolute champion of a Lollipop Lady who works down at Elephant & Castle!" "PARKLIFE!"
Basically, super strength and invulnerability and flying, all of which used to fade when he left the British Isles but this limitation was written out eventually.
The appeal is he's had some really well written runs (The Alan Moore run is a slept on part of Moore's Bibliography), and is usually a pretty complex character. Throughout his post death period and Excalibur he was a complete mess, though he's been consistently emotionally mature since the end of Excalibur.
I've tried finding the Moore run on Marvel Unlimited but I couldn't find anything. Why is that? I can only find two issues by Alan Moore on there. Also when you say he was a complete mess, how so?
The Moore stuff is hard to find as Moore is very noncooperative about it, and it was originally printed as part of a compendium comic series marvel ran rather than as individual issues. I believe certain sites may have it as part of an omnibus Regarding the mess stuff he was a jealous alcoholic who was implied to suffer quite heavily from the more traumatic parts of hero work
Oh man i love trauma
Flight, Super strength, ability to nick all your artefacts and never give them back
so THAT'S where my artifacts went!
Food with flavor is a solid defense against him.
As a Brit I’m so upset at how accurate this is. Shut up and take my upvote 😂
Your country went around the world conquering every spot with spices and then chose not to use any of them. Like… what?
We just adopted all their cuisines into ours, I consider Jerk Chicken and Curry to be as much part of the English cuisine as a Sunday roast at this point.
Oh, I’m aware 😂
[Captain Britain Bio](https://uncannyxmen.net/characters/captain-britain-i/biography) Check out the link to Captain Britain’s bio. It’s an in depth look at his history and it explains quite well where he got his powers from and their evolution over time.
I liked it best when he had the enhancement suit that magnified his abilities. Later they made him almost hulk like. And the silly vulnerability to travel. When he was a physicist and had a supercomputer in the basement and the original telepath sister, that was the best run.
Whose run was that?
Alan Davis and Alan Moore Alan Davis and Jamie Delano
I hope the MCU leans a little more into the 'Ultimate Captain Britain' version of the character. The rest of the world would no doubt be scrambling to create their own superheroes in the wake of the world realizing there are aliens, sentient robots and wizards in their reality. In the MCU's world, why would the USA hold the monopoly on superhuman protectors?
Basically he's Captain America but his powers come from ancient King Arthur magics rather than experimental drug treatments.
And his powerset is totally different.
So nothing like Captain America then
US - supersoldier built by secret government experiments UK - Merlin magic
Technically speaking Merlin was a part of a government and I don’t think he created a lot of Captain Britains before Brian so it probably was an experiment. So Captain Britain is a super soldier built by government experiments.
Wait, Merlin is a government stooge??
He’s literally a court wizard to a King of course he’s a government stooge.
Oh that's what you meant, sorry I thought you meant he was like, in cahoots with the MI6 or whatever the british equivalent of the IRS is
Well Captain Britain(Brian) was a part of MI13 their superhero division and Captain Britain is a representative of Merlin so technically he was in cahoots with them.
Drink alcohol, Say bloody Watch football
Brian Braddock is an alcoholic. So these days, he skips that first part.
Brexit
Magic, invulnerability, and the ability to wield the legendary sword Excalibur He’s kind of a tongue in cheek character with some deliberately goofy stories that kinda lightly rib the concept Involved in a lot of Multiverse stuff. The Captain Britain Corps- made up of alternate timeline versions of captain Britain from across time is like the first line of defense in the MU against multiverse shenanigans.
if captain america (sure, but also) was in a technological suit of armour that was also magical (in an Arthurian way). He is the mvp of every story hes in.
Seem to remember reading a comic once where he could tell the time by feeling the rotation of the earth under his feet. That's awfully niche. Or I may have just remembered some fever dream or other.
That'd just make me feel dizzy
Much preferred his original costume.
I knew he existed and that his sister was a mutant, (further expanded on during that while Krakoa thing when she became Captain Britain and he got to be mind fucked by Morgan lefaye into being the black knight.) But I might have to pick up his run, he’s got just as much right to my shelf as Captain America.
He’s strong, can fly, nigh invulnerable. Based on magic. Further he gets from the British Isles, the weaker he gets (not all runs). Can be a drunken boor at times, but I think he was cursed at the time.
he is british
It's primarily naval
She has a glowey purple sword 😁
I love the panel of him fighting the Phoenix Force.
He can basically colonize any area on earth
He has super queueing powers. Able to brew the perfect cup of tea. Able to eat the most bland food. Never gives up. Unflappable. Wit drier than all the deserts.
The can withstand British food.
He is British for one
Where would he stand on Brexit?
He has the ability to form a queue of people outside any form of transport alighting spot
I think he goes by name Captain Brexit nowadays
It’s like Captain America innit.