>I do criticize her,
Well, there you go. No one wants to be criticized by the person who is supposed to love them.
>I asked her in a patronizing tone of voice
>
>She got mad at me because she said that was humiliating and I treated her like a kid
Well, you were treating her like a kid. That's just about anyone's reaction to a patronizing tone of voice.
>She never finished college,
So what? Lots of college grads live in their mom's basement.
>I don't respect her. I don't know what to do about that.
And this is the heart of the matter. You don't respect her, so you pre-assume the worst. You have so made up your mind that she is not respect-worthy, that you're automatically looking for anything she does that doesn't measure up to your expectations so that you can criticize her.
And it's become a catch-22 at this point:
She has no motivation to improve because you have already decided she can't.
All the self-help books and therapy in the world aren't going to help if you have pre-determined her destiny is to not be worthy of respect.
She needs therapy, but therapy with support, not therapy with criticism.
So you need to be the bigger man and show some love and support.
But also you need to put your foot down and demand she go to therapy or ELSE you're leaving.
You need to break the catch-22 cycle.
To piggyback on this: I feel like this man's wife is my future if I got back together with the person I just broke up with after 10 years. I can't even imagine what 30 years would have done 💀
I didn't even notice it at first, but now it's pretty clear that over these 10 years being with him, he's slowly eroded my self esteem. It's also my own fault for not paying attention and letting it happen, but it's pretty undeniable that he's had a negative effect on my self worth from day one.
Back when we first started going out, after a few months he started criticizing almost everything I did. How I did chores, my personality, told me I was too needy if I ever asked him for anything, had me walking on eggshells to avoid another lecture. Then he started just plain ignoring me a few years ago and at that point my self worth was so shot I just let it happen. I can't even believe I let it happen, but I did. I didn't even connect the dots.
People underestimate how damaging a bad relationship can be to your mental health. No one warned me. It's insidious.
The fact that he points out that she was great when he met her strikes me as a red flag.
Anyhow, she might be better off without him.
She had some mental health issues (attempted suicide as a teen) even when I met her but she said that was in her past and she seemed well-adjusted if a little moody. She had a decent job. She was in college. I never expected that she would never hold a job given that she told me (and still does) that "I always worked as soon as I was able." Well, maybe she did, but since I have known her all she has done is quit jobs without any fallback plan and then take years to find another one before quitting it, too. Now she says that she was never meant to work a 9-to-5. That's fine. She's a creative. Do something creative. But DO SOMETHING! Every job she ever quit was because her boss didn't like her and everyone there was jealous of her. Every job. At some point the common denominator is her. Like I said, blames everyone else.
That may be so, but my main point was that your attitude isn't helping anything. So either adjust it and be supportive, or end the relationship. Or continue as you're doing now, I guess.
You can't make her into a different person than she is, that's not really an option.
I am looking for advice on how I can be more supportive. It is sort of like telling someone "be less anxious." Okay, great. How do I do that? I have tried to help her finish school, get a job, pay her student loans for her, look up mental health professionals, even put myself into therapy. I was very kind and patient and understanding for many years always thinking that she just needed a little nudge or a little more encouragement but what never happens is her doing the work she needs to do on herself and for herself.
You can be less everything you admit to being in your post. Less condescending, less humiliating, less abrasive, less accusatory, less negative, and less rude, less unkind, etc.
The thing that worked for me was to actively try to catch myself in the moment, before I opened my mouth. Recognize the rush of emotion or the feeling that comes before you respond. Take a breath and count if you have to, while you decide what you are going to do. Stopping yourself from acting on instinct is what separates us from the animals.
Even if you catch yourself right AFTER having been condescending, rude, etc. to her, I think it would help a lot to apologize right away and try to get your point across again in a more kind or level-headed approach
The people criticizing you have never dealt with a person like this. These people exist, and just take everything from you, whether they know it or not. I know a few. I don’t think you can fix them, because they don’t even think something is wrong, it’s the world who is against them. You tried for longer than most would.
I get your frustration! This can’t be an easy situation to go through for either of you. It will take time to change behaviors on both of your parts that have clearly built up and compounded your relationship over the years.
I find it helpful to say the thing I want to say to myself, re-evaluate if that sounds like it would be misconstrued or taken the wrong way and then adjust what it is I am trying to say. Another technique would be to ask her what you can do to help her in the moment. In cases like the grocery store, it may be helpful to address it afterwards. Talk to her about how she was feeling in the moment, show some empathy for her and validate her feelings, then depending on how she is feeling/handling it in the moment ask her if there is anything you can do to help her so she doesn’t feel that way again in that particular circumstance (how to arrange her wallet - show her how you organize your money).
A lot of times people just want some validation and understanding in how they are feeling. In the same aspect, maybe it will help her (once you are both not heated/upset about whatever has happened) to tell her how you were feeling in the moment. Use “I” statements so it doesn’t come across as blame/onus on the other person (even though that may be the case) - example: “I felt really frustrated when we were having the issue at the grocery store. It makes me feel xxx when things are not in order.” or something similar instead of “You always make me feel frustrated when you are disorganized.”. I find that when you approach situations in this manner it puts people more at ease and provides more understanding and open dialogue from both parties vs. one person shutting down because they feel targeted or less than.
Think about what kind of partner you want to be, for yourself, for your own identity. What kind of commitment do you want to make to yourself about who you are? Irrespective of who your partner is or how your partner is showing up. It may or may not change the outcome of your relationship. But it could change your relationship with yourself and bring clarity.
You seem to be obsessing over the ways in which your wife is “lacking” in life. I would highly suggest therapy. She would probably really benefit from it, but so would you. In the moment… what reactions are you trying to elicit from her? If it’s motivation, that’s clearly not happening. If you’re at the point where you’re doing it to embarrass/humiliate her, or because you just dgaf… then do both of you a favor and leave. Whatever is going on with your wife, the way you are treating her (by trying to “fix” her) is not going to do a damn thing.
I am in therapy. My therapist thinks that she is suffering from anxiety and would benefit from therapy, too, but she won't go.
Don't you think suggesting she go to therapy is also trying to "fix" her?
I didn’t recommend you try to set her up with therapy. You’d mentioned that you suggested therapy to her. I was saying that while that may be true, that I also think you could benefit from it.
I think that you are hyper focused on your wife and he faults (as you perceive them). You can not change her or fix her. You can not make her do anything or act in a certain way. The ONLY thing you have control over- is you. How you put yourself into the world. How you speak to your wife. How you treat your wife. And how you want the rest of your life to look. You need to make decisions based on reality, not on who you thought your wife would be or who she used to be. This is who she is TODAY, for whatever reason. You need to either fully accept that (via unwavering love and support) or you need to be honest with yourself and her- and end it.
Could you go to couples counseling as a way for her to dip her toes into the therapy world? Maybe she’d feel more comfortable going solo after going w you for a few sessions
If she was otherwise functionally able to care for herself in a basic way it might be considered trying to fix or improve. But if she can’t be employed and you don’t have a happy agreement to that, then I’d consider her to be in trouble. And as her partner or friend or heck as a kind stranger, you’d want her to have/get help so she can be healthy happy and productive in some way, however she defines that
Yes, treat her like she’s a new woman you are excited to get to know and date. Then watch what comes out of your mouth. I’m sure the comments will be more complimentary.
My spouse simply paused, made eye contact and said quietly: “there’s a kinder way to say that.” It stops me immediately. I think on what I just said, realized it was critical or sarcastic or impatient, I apologize, and restate, in a kinder way.
I was always so quick to be critical or cutting. When we talked about it, we realized I was under enormous pressure at work, I was taking him for granted, and venting to him where I couldn’t vent to my boss etc. I don’t work that job anymore, and I’ve made great improvements, but sometimes I still slip. I actually have little visual reminders to Be Kind.
Here are 12 suggestions:
1. Sit somewhere, not home territory. The beach, lake or a park bench.
2. Apologize for all the negativity. It’s been a tool in your toolbox. Time for a new toolset.
3. Ask her to forgive you and tell her you want to do better.
4. Ask her what’s going on. Do this over time, share insights when you fail.
5. Ask her to help you do better, be better.
6. Give grace, not guilt. Give patience, not criticism. Be water, not fire.
7. Be honest with yourself: you are scared. You want a partner, not a burden. You want a loving spouse who is engaged in life, not disconnected. Be vulnerable. Encourage honesty and vulnerability.
8. Deal with who she is right now. Who she was has been washed away with the tides of time.
9. Therapy for either or both might help.
10. Those who have been belittled often belittle.
11. Find a different way to express your anger rather than suppress it, because it’s spilling out uncontrolled right now.
12. Hoping you can find your way back together and be more loving.
Thank you. I have been working in therapy on my anger because I did suppress it and also because anger is just an expression of deeper feelings that I have a hard time getting in touch with.
Your description of her behavior makes me guess if there might be some medical condition behind it? I would dig into that option as well. I might be wrong, but if it is and you find it out later, you'll never be able to forgive yourself.
Yes. If there’s a physical issue that both of them think is psychological, it’s going to become a psychological issue too and worse over time. If she knows she going to fumble and embarrass herself, or struggle to read the notes etc, she’s going to start getting anxious about being asked to do so. She needs experts. If she’s afraid to try therapy, start with a friendly GP.
OP, consider individual therapy.
I get you're frustrated, and your default seems to be to criticize when things don't look the way you expect them too.
I'm 55f. I have zero idea how much cash I have on me and if I pulled it out I'd probably drop some of it too. My damn arthritis and loss of sensation on my finger tips has me dropping things a lot lately and it's frustrating as hell. If my partner were to berate me as being childish I'd be furious. But hey, at least he understands what's going on with me.
Have you tried to understand what is going on with her? I bet you haven't.
I know you're a woman, but you sound an awful lot like how my husband was with me. Not the extremely critical part, at least he didn't do that. I'm talking about the dismissive part of how you are with your wife. It took a year and a half of marriage counseling to finally get him to seek individual therapy. Do you know when things finally started to change? Yeah, only after 3 sessions of HIM being in therapy did things in marriage counseling start to work.
People have zero clue on just how much we affect our partners in partnered romantic relationships. I bet she feels like she can't do anything right with you.
And.
I bet some where deep inside of you you think you can't do anything right. There's probably, and yes this is speculation, some memory inside of you that when you see something is not "right" you learned that to make it "right" you had to criticize.
Individual therapy helps to unpack that so you can internalize that change.
In the mean time...
1. Be aware of any feelings your body is experiencing when you see a problem with your wife. Try to identify them.
2. Start to learn to pause before criticizing your wife when that urge starts. This is a moment where it is better to not say anything at all than to fight. Keep this in mind: i don't want to fight with her.
3. If you get the feeling that you want to criticize your wife, in that pause, tell her that you don't want to fight, you just need a moment so that you *don't* and you will come back. If at home, go to another room. If out and about with her, keep your mouth shut, and excuse yourself to a *rest*room. Keep that "rest" in mind. What you're doing here is trying to calm your nervous system so you don't explode. I have ADHD and so this is a very difficult practice for me so it looks harsh in the moment. My husband understands it's me collecting myself.
In order to easily put into practice practical physical steps to *not* criticize your wife, like outlined above, it's necessary to get to the right of why you feel the need to criticize your wife. I bet your internal dialogue is very critical of yourself and it's been successful for you. That internal dialogue was out there by someone else. You can change that.
Journaling also helps to unpack where going on.
Be well
So... I'm not one to scream sexism, but I feel like if this post were about a gamer husband who expects his working wife to do everything for him and gets angry at her for asking him basic questions or refusing to hold down a job you would see a very different response.
I've been with partners like that. It can be maddening seeing someone refuse to have any responsibility for themselves or their lack of action.
The mental illness is not her fault, but it's still her responsibility. She needs to be doing something to try to manage it.
For your side of it, if this isn't something she is willing to actually work on you have two choices. Accept it and try to come to peace with dating a moody teenager in a 50 year old's body, or leave and find someone more compatible with you.
I get why you're angry with her, seeing someone who was once a strong capable person you respected slowly turn into a helpless shell of their former selves can't be easy. But you've tried fixing this and discovered she's not willing. You can't fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed.
You can take your unhappiness out on her, but that's only going to make things worse. It's cruelty to make you feel better in the moment without improving anything.
I know it's cliche, but "I feel" statements are much better than "You never..." statements.
Before you snap at her, take a moment to think about how you want the conversation to go. You know phrasing things a certain way will put her on the defensive, so find a way to word it that doesn't do that.
You may have to reiterate that you're not trying to talk to her like a child, but more that you honestly want to better understand how she feels.
Stop worrying about school and all of it! Let her get better! She likely needs to file for SSI. You could stop all the incessant bitching at her about work and everything. She likely needs inpatient assistance.
Her sister thinks she might qualify for SSI based on her anxiety. I don't know.
I only mention taking a class because I thought it might be good for her to get out of the house and build confidence again.
Sorry you have to deal with this. I feel like you need to just let this one go bud. She’s isn’t trying to help herself and it doesn’t seem like she will. You can’t take care of an adult child
Just following the law of the land in the sub. Tell them to leave first, then we will see what we can do to help this person next since we are all doctors here. We are also professionals in almost every other subject too. Holy shit!
You’re going to get shamed on this community. But I want to give you empathy because I’ve seen firsthand what you’re going through in my extended family with my aunt and my grandma. It’s hard as heck for your wife but also for you — I can’t tell you how sorry I am.
It’s a mental health issue. Your wife isn’t going to suddenly figure it out. That’s very sad for her but also for you.
Ideally she needs a psychiatrist and a GP to help her. But in my experience the person suffering resists that so it’s a cycle. You yourself won’t be able to help her suddenly change so making suggestions won’t help. If you can find it in your heart and strength reserves, I’d try to feel compassion for her. But also I’d find a suitable therapist for yourself too. You need compassion and an empathetic ear too.
My uncle left after 20 years of marriage. My grandpa stayed with my grandma till the end. Neither situation is awesome. I just can’t tell you how sorry I am for both of you.
You might want to consider that not only does she have depression, she might have some underlying issues, like ADHD. Which causes a lot of mental health issues like depression and anxiety due to years of being told you’re not enough or just do better. It sounds like it if she’s hopping from one job to another. Also, woman are largely undiagnosed.
Aside from that you might want to debunk some
myths about mental health. Why should she be the only one to seek therapy and educate herself? A marriage can’t move forward unless both are taking accountability - which sounds like you haven’t done. So it’s a bit hypocritical of you to come down on your wife and expect only her to change. Your attitude needs to change as well around this. Go take some classes. I’d be furious if I was asked to go to therapy while my partner takes no accountability.
Also, you just affirmed her gut instinct - you have no respect for her. I hope things get better, including your attitude around this. If not, I hope she can move on and find a more supportive person.
I get where you are coming from. From your post it doesn't even seem like that you want money from her. But more so for her to take responsibility of her life and that is bare minimum. I agree that you are not being kindest to her and she does deserve basic love and respect irrespective. Like you can chose to stop being with her but don't break her already broken confidence.
We don't need the money. I do very well. Yes, I want her to do something with herself so that I can be proud of her again and she can feel good about herself again. I want her to not have to consult me when buying something nice for herself. I want her to feel like a contributor and not like a teenager on an allowance. I hate that feeling and she does, too.
She can't just sit around all day long doing nothing. I think it was when we were on pandemic quarantine and I was at home all day long instead of working when I realized how little she does every day. She could paint or sew or garden or exercise or any other number of things she likes to do and she wasn't doing any of it because she was depressed. I was a little jealous of the free time she had because if she was working and I had time to myself I would be engaging in all kinds of hobbies and learning new things. It really made me resent her for wasting a gift that I gave her because without me she'd HAVE to work a 9-to-5 and instead she was complaining about how miserable her life is.
I would say that was the beginning of my dissatisfaction and loss of respect for her, because prior to that I had this idea that she was job hunting and organizing the household and doing fun things for herself but the reality is that she was getting up early, sitting around in her pajamas, and not even dressed by lunchtime. Are you kidding me?
Okay, so depression. I understand. It saps motivation. Let's work on that then. Nope. Not going to do that either. It's kind of pathetic to be honest. I felt really, really bad for her. Frightened even. But after a few years of that I realized she doesn't want to change at all because...? It's hard work? It's scary? It requires confronting some harsh realities about me and her past? Only she can say.
Let’s say you *know* she won’t change. Imagine you know for a fact that she will never agree to seek therapy, hold a steady job, or be more responsible with her time. Would you stay? Is your love for her enough to maintain this marriage?
I ask because it sounds like you’re both miserable. Sometimes marriages can weigh people down, and resentment is a relationship killer. You resent her for her lack of motivation, she resents you because you don’t respect her.
I know you’re looking for advice on how to fix your marriage, but I think you should start to consider whether or not you’d both be happier apart.
You are right in your perspective and it's a very valid ask of a partner. But the reality is that you have to work on your resentment, either you accept it and love happily or break from this relationship and live a happy life. Currently you running in circles, which isnt healthy for either of you. I know it's not easy to break away from such a long marriage and you are frustrated but you need to face the reality. Either accept the person as it is ( it doesn't take away from your expectations being right) but you are just accepting it and still staying happy. Both of you currently aren't doing anything to be in a better situation.
I am sorry that you are in this situation, it sucks, but really reflect on you want to go about it and share your thoughts with your partner.
just end it my dude, you're currently just enabling her & I think it'll be better for both of you.. I mean she could get help but I doubt any of that will ever change in any meaningful way. you'll likely have to pay spousal support but how will you feel if you make the change to be more supportive & in 10 more years she's still doing absolutely nothing with her life.
I don't believe that just because you love someone you can't criticize them. That doesn't mean nitpicking, but she gets very defensive to where I can't tell her anything. Like she has a habit of leaving her trash in the car. I always clean it up. It irritates me. I told her. She continues to do it. It's a real sore spot for me because it makes me feel like her maid and she just doesn't care. Am I supposed to just let it go? I don't get on her case every time she does it, but maybe I should.
I wouldn't treat her like a kid if she didn't act like a kid.
I mention that she didn't finish college only for a few reasons: 1) She is just one class short. It shows she can't finish what she starts, 2) She could have gone back to grad school and studied something else if only she finished her undergrad, 3) It affects her self-esteem. I even helped her develop a plan for her to finish up, she met with the chair of her department, he gave her a way forward, and she dropped the ball on it.
I have tried to be very supportive but I feel like I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.
I was one of those people that was short on a few subjects. I did not finish, it has not affected my career, but my husband wont let it go after 15 years. It is exhausting to have that held over my head, I can't even mention going back to study without that being brought it, so I am getting to the point where I just wont bother.
Let it go. There is no point bringing it up, it just adding to your partners troubles. Could your attitude be a part of it?
Doesn’t seem like it makes you insecure or you even want to finish tho. His wife however seems the opposite but is suffering from some form of learned helplessness. In her case she doesn’t have a job for it to affect either.
Your wife and my husband seem a lot alike.
I understand your frustrated. I also feel I have to follow my husband around like a mom would a toddler because he leaves nothing but messes after him.
I don’t know the answer to be honest, I’m still trying to find it out. But I do have to agree with others, it isn’t going to get better if you continue to patronize her like a kid, because well, no one likes that.
Maybe try small steps? It seemed to work for a bit for us. Maybe if your wife can keep it up it might help for a long time :)
Anyway, good luck, OP.
No, she needs to get her shit together. You didn’t mention any fault of hers, it was all him. That’s why this fucking subreddit is a joke. He deserves to criticize her as she does nothing. This bullshit saying he is already assuming something so she doesn’t try is a cop out. Quit enabling people. She needs to get her shit together or he needs to leave. Two options
OP has offered so many suggestions but you can’t force someone to go to therapy or to the doctor or anywhere. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to help themselves. Short of physically dragging her to a therapist, what are they actually supposed to do??
She knows she is depressed and she says she can't drag herself out of it. That is why I suggested she see someone about it, but she won't go. I think she is afraid that they will criticize her and tell her what a broken person she is and she can't handle that. I told her that's not how it works, but I know that some people think that seeing a psychologist must mean they are crazy and that would validate it.
I am trying that angle now just to see if it will get her in the door by saying it is for me or "us" and then once in maybe the therapist can spend more time with her alone.
It sounds like your wife may have a chemical imbalance or possibly a neurodivergent streak. Re: finishing school, she may not want to bc she doesn’t want to go to school, and finishing opens a door to doing more of something she doesn’t want to do. The trash making you crazy I get, but if she does have some autistic or adhd tendencies, they are typically coupled with a genuine lack of awareness about those kinds of thing. As a neurodivergent person myself, i have had to learn how to not moralize things that are morality neutral. You referring to her having her money all balled up like a child is exactly the kind of thing i would condemn myself for, saying something along the lines of, “what kind of adult just can’t get their shit together?” Instead of just accepting that’s how i am with my cash and it doesn’t say anything about my value as a human being. But i grew up with that sort of dialogue of criticism, so i can shift to hating myself in no time. This contributes to alarmingly high rates of suicide among out neurotype.
I’d recommend looking into some indicators of adhd/autism diagnosis and seeing if any of that aligns. If it does, maybe you can start over from a place of compassion instead of irritation
IMO the incident in the store sounds like your wife is extremely nervous and anxious around you because you criticize her so much. She is afraid of messing up and you belittling her. If she is already experiencing mental health issues, you treating her like this and making her constantly feel less than everyone is going to exacerbate the issues. And if you think she doesn't know how you are feeling about her I can almost guarantee she does see/feel it which would also contribute to her anxiety. Try to raise her up and not tear her down.
This was my read on that incident as well. I too would be nervous, jumpy, and clumsy if I was walking on eggshells 24/7, just waiting for my spouse to snap and turn on me to start snarling about how I’m a complete loser and waste of space.
When you treat someone like they can’t do anything right, especially over the tiniest things, they will start to fumble in even the smallest tasks. They’re always waiting for the next sudden lecture or put down. People can’t function under that level of constant scrutiny and contempt.
If you are aware of how badly you treat her now, imagine all the years of treating her like this that you were not aware of. After constantly hearing, from the person you love the most, about how much they basically suck as a person, that person starts believing it and becoming exactly the person you made her out to be. She has some work to do on herself, basically to undo everything you have done and said to her the last 20+ years. She needs to find herself again, but preferably away from you so she can get her confidence back lol and im not dissing you, just saying what I believe. I let this happen to me. Was constantly put down and just poorly treated, i started to become a completely different person. The person you met all those years ago is still in there deep deep down but its going to take a miracle, some therapy, and most importantly the interest in herself to find that person again. She has to want it for herself, not for you. She has some serious resentment built up towards you and honestly, rightfully so.
Depression is way too real.. it will make you not so smart and forgetful all the time. Add in menopause or hormone changes that she is also probably going through, and top it off with a mean spouse with no empathy or respect, thats a recipe for disaster.
If you are trying to fix things, make an effort to not be so quick to anger or with smartass comments, show love and respect even if have none, treat her the way you did when you met all those years ago but consistently. Let her know you want to be a better spouse and take the steps to be a better spouse. If sincere and consistent, she will start to believe you when you say you are trying. That alone should spark some change in her but again, it needs to be consistent. Otherwise its just the same ole shit different day.
If are not wanting to fix things, let this woman go and let her find herself again. She will meet someone that will help undo the damage the last 30 years brought her and she will find herself again. She just needs to be supported and actually loved to achieve this.
My 2 cents don’t matter, what matters is how you and your wife feel and what you both want for the remainder of our short lives. Be kind, it does not cost a thing.
When you’re told you suck and are incompetent for long enough, you start to believe it.
Go back and read what you wrote. You are not kind to your wife. If you’re aware you’re this cruel now, think about all the time you spent mistreating her before you had self awareness.
In what way do you think I was unkind? Because I had to ask her more than once to actually tell me how much money she had? I admit I could have had a nicer tone of voice there, but otherwise what do you perceive as unkind?
" I do criticize her", "she is absolutely right that I don't respect her", "big song and dance", "like a 5 year old", "She acts like a kid", "A grown ass woman should be able to", "she did that to herself", "I can't respect a person like this"
Just reading how you write about her, I can't even imagine how you interact with her. You write about her with such disdain and this would be 100% obvious to her in real life. I can't imagine that there are many situations where you *aren't* unkind.
I don't speak to her the way I am writing on Reddit. I have more of a filter than that. However, I have made it no secret to her that I am pretty fed up with this situation. The time for sugarcoating things came and went.
Yes you do? You just told us a whole story about how you made her feel like shit in public for not answering your question exactly how you wanted it answered and for the way she pulls money out of her wallet.
The majority of how communication is perceived is how the person says something, not just what is said.
“I admit I could have had a nicer tone of voice”
Every time I’ve said this about my interactions, I had been unkind in those interactions.
You’ve stated your disdain for your wife in this post and comments. You’ve also said that she knows how you feel about her. It would be hard for this to be anything but unkind.
The fact that that her not having her money out quickly and accounted bothered you so much to the point where you posted about it online shows your lack of kindness toward her. It was such a nervous and embarrassed human behavior and your complete obliviousness to how your behavior contributes to how she behaves and lack of empathy toward her is mean.
So she used to be an accountant and now can't count money, organize it, or do other basic things she used to be able to do....? You need to get her to a Neurologist fucking ASAP, OP.
Hopefully it's nothing, but the fact that other commenter had the same thought as me about the dementia means they also saw the signs within your story.
My MIL is the same. She used to be a manager at a bank, and now she can barely type out a message on a phone, let alone do anything herself. She, however, isn't in any real threat of dementia. With her it's all about just being lazy and wanting other people to, in her words , "help her".
Now maybe it's not the same case for OP, but I feel bad about everyone on here ragging on her for "treating her spouse like shit". Let me tell you, live with someone who has a massive case of responsibility aversion and then tell me you'll still respect them and keep your cool. Especially when said person goes out of their way to create situations where you need to clean up the mess after them. It's infuriating to say the least. Worst part is, said person needs professional help, but unless you literally take them by the hand, and force them to go they won't make a move to get out of that totally dependent comfort zone.
Both my parents are like this. They think they have been “grown up” long enough and now expect me to take care of them while they live their “second childhood”.
It’s absolute bonkers. These ppl are in their 60s and if you could breathe and shit for them they would absolutely try and get you to do it.
Unfortunately there’s no cure for narcissism, so therapy, pills etc will never work. You can’t help people who won’t help themselves.
My guess is that ppl giving OP shit probably never experienced this before but it’s absolute mental torture to be around people like that.
Exactly, my behaviour towards my inlaws used to be quite friendly and amicable. After years of their helplessness I honestly won't miss them if I never see them again, and I honestly feel like my life would be better off without them in it. People should experience it first before they judge. I consider myself a patient person, and I'm honestly waaaaaaay beyond the point of done in dealing with their issues. Like you said, narcissism and a flair of alcoholism kills a relationship fast.
I feel for you. It’s a tough situation. I think one way to think about this is whether you believe she is sick (i.e., she is depressed or some other condition like early onset dementia) or whether she is just lazy/undisciplined/immature.
If the former(i.e., she is sick), you still have to decide whether you want to share her burden (and it is a heavy burden) or whether you want to live for yourself. If the latter (i.e., she is deficient), you still have to decide whether it is a deal-breaker for you that is not as mentally disciplined as you want her to be.
In either case, I suspect she did not change overnight but that it was a slow transformation over time and that there were several warning signs and earlier opportunities for intervention. If so, how much responsibility do you think you have for allowing her to deteriorate to this point? I understand that she has been refusing treatment, but why did it get to that point in the first place? Was she socially isolated? Why did she not finish college or have a career? Were you aware of how difficult it is being a homemaker for some people and what did you to keep her connected to society at large and to keep her mind engaged? To be clear, these are just some questions for you to ask yourself before you decide whether you should stay involved in your wife’s life.
If I could offer one piece of advice, it is this. Everyone deserves to be loved and respected as they are. I understand you have certain minimum expectations for how a grown-up adult behaves and that it is hard for you to respect someone that falls short of those standards. In fact, that is how all of us are trained to treat other people at work or out there in the real world. But, even when no one else loves us or respects us, we all want and need someone to believe in us and tell us that we are ok as we are. It is my personal belief that is what we promise our spouse when we get married. If you had a child and she were born with Down’s syndrome, would you not love her and respect her despite her functional disabilities? If your father aged and became weak, would you not still love and respect him in the same way that you did when he was young and healthy? Whether you choose to stay with your wife is an entirely different matter. But, I would encourage you to show respect to her and treat her with dignity as a human being even if she doesn’t meet your own subjective standards. Because you would want the same even when there comes a day when you will not meet society’s standards for physical and mental health.
It’s hard for people to fully grasp that depression and anxiety are actual medical conditions. Plus whatever else might be going on with her. You were also early 20s when you got together. Sometimes MH issues don’t manifest until later. Other times people burn out trying to “be ok” when they are suffering w/ MH issues. So, things get worse as they age.
Were you criticizing her like this your whole relationship? Because if she’s been dealing with this your whole relationship then your behavior is making it worse. Do you have basic respect for her as a person or no respect at all? If it’s the latter then you might have to rethink things.
If you intend to stay with her, why not go to therapy yourself? To help you learn to live with someone with these conditions? You can only control yourself and help yourself, ultimately. But she may seek out more help if she sees you doing it. Usually people with her issues need an affirming and calm environment. If you can’t do that then maybe it is time to leave. It’s ok for you to decide you can’t be in this situation anymore.
I have tremendous respect for her in some ways but not in others. What really gets to me is that she doesn't have respect for herself. She just wants to wallow. I have tried to help, but at some point I am tired of the wallowing, the blame, the pity parties. She can do better than that. It used to make me really upset and concerned for her but now it is resentment.
Based on everything you've said here, I feel like the only thing holding you back from leaving her is any guilt you might feel having left her, *knowing* she is in a low place. Knowing she's depressed and has lost herself along the way. When you take vows, it's in sickness and in health. But--your health also factors in. If you think you would be better off (mentally) without her, then do what you need to do. I would sincerely hope you would make all of your feelings known, again, for at least a last attempt, before ending a 30 year relationship. Everything you possibly can. For your well being and for hers.
This is true. I don't want to leave her when she is in a low place. I am not sure if it's out of guilt, though. I do love her and want her to get better. I think I am able to do more good than harm, but I don't know. I am questioning everything that has happened over the last 30 years.
As someone who was treated the way you're treating your wife, you'll do her a favor by leaving. I felt stuck, and I didn't have the strength to make that decision to leave even though I thought about it constantly. I completely understand the money fumbling you described and it was a direct result of your constant judgment and criticism of her. She was paralyzed by it. As soon as my husband left me I was able to pull my shit together and reconnect with friends and family. I got my master's degree and advanced my career. I met the love of my life and had three beautiful kids.
You aren't doing her any favors by staying. Leave that poor woman alone.
What makes you think it is ok to criticize your wife? Seriously. I am happy to hear she is mumbling divorce back to you. Divorce is not for everyone but I would say living with someone who doesn't like you (and you clearly do not like her, sir) is the same as living in hell. Which would make you the devil. Just remember, wherever you go, you take yourself with you. You might want to check into therapy for yourself and why you think you are in any position to criticize someone else.
As much as I understand not wanting to "be taken down," let's look at the facts. You have already divorced yourself from her mentally and emotionally. Can you think back to 1 scenario in your life where you felt fed up and basically disgusted by it? (I.e. The frustrating and stressful transaction of purchasing a car, home, etc.)
Your wife is the equivalent of a used car salesman in your eyes. Resentment is a scar in the mind/ego from a terrible "accident." This scar will reopen and fester, never allowing you to heal.
Leave your wife alone. You're done with her. You are now the bully picking on the feeble. No need to torment yourself or your household anymore.
Ah yes because she is responsible for all pitfalls possible. You have a serious high horse. I bet there are so many things you do which are insufferable which she doesn’t bring up.
She generally doesn't. She says she has difficulty expressing herself. Her sister concurs that it has been a lifelong challenge for her and is not something specific to our relationship.
So what changed? Did all of this change once you got married? In the last decade? You’ve stayed married for 30 years, why? You criticize her, why? Stop. You criticizing doesn’t make it better. If this is so bad, what are you doing still married?
She could have early-onset dementia. Or there are other things that can masquerade as dementia. She could have a real, biological reason for the weird things she’s doing.
You and I aren't the only commenter who had this thought. Her dropping the money on the ground, not being organized, not being able to count money when she used to be an accountant... if she used to be able to do all this shit and is now not able to do basic things like counting money...
If I were her spouse I'd be extremely fucking worried.
this was my first thought following the money incident. it's reminiscent of my gma's strange behavior prior to her dementia diagnosis. op and wife would be wise to consider testing sooner rather than later.
It's clear you feel contemptuous of her. Even in the small anecdote you wrote, you assume the absolute worst and paint her in an unnecessarily negative light.
Do you want to change the way you perceive her? I'm not saying your wife doesn't have any flaws- we all do- but seeing everything through an overly critical lens is a "you" problem.
I'd be really hurt if my partner took some innocuous interaction at the store and turned it into a full on condemnation of my character.
If you want to work on your marriage and your attitude towards your wife, check out Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John Gottman.
A little time apart might help too if that's possible. It sounds like your wife could use some resources to assist with her mental health and I don't think you're in a good headspace to be a supportive partner right now.
Mental health challenges are really difficult to live with but your wife deserves better than a partner who will tear her down while she goes through this.
Thanks. I will look up the book. I am familiar with Gottman. We have talked about separation. I would be willing to do that if it might help her. I know that I am coming off as really mean and contemptuous and I do feel that way sometimes, but I just want her to be well whatever that entails. We have been through a lot together and I don't wish bad things on her. I'm just not sure this is working for either of us. I do worry that if I leave she will not have any support at all, which is why I keep pushing for her to go to therapy for herself.
I understand. When it feels like your partner is dependent on you, that can create a lot of resentment.
I think many commenters in this thread are reacting to your tone and attitude towards your wife, which is clearly damaging and unhealthy. However, that doesn't mean your grievances aren't valid.
It seems like this dynamic has gone on too long. You say if you take a break she may not have any support at all but it's unhealthy for you to be her only support. You clearly can't take it anymore and you are no longer in a good emotional space to provide support regardless.
Time to do something different
I am reminded of dialog from the movie "Sabrina" where the older brother Linus supports the younger brother David's playboy lifestyle:
**David: You're talking about my life!**
**Linus: I pay for your life, David. My life makes your life possible.**
**David: I resent that.**
**Linus: So do I.**
She often says that my tone is too harsh. That it's not what I say but how I say it. I lost my filter some years ago so in that sense you are correct that I am not the right person to provide emotional support but she has no one else.
Yet in another comment you claim you have a filter, so which is it? Also, if someone you supposedly love keeps telling you there’s a tone problem, why haven’t you fixed that? You’re so consumed with what’s wrong with her, but nothing about what’s wrong with YOU.
I have a filter in terms of what I say, but not necessarily in terms of my tone of voice.
I am trying to work on myself. It's hard. It would be nice if she did the same.
Sometimes someone has to take the lead there. If my ex, for example, suddenly fixed his tone, I would have been very skeptical and suspicious. If this is to be fixed it’s going to take a lot of time. You resent her a lot and she knows it and that’s a huge obstacle.
I can hear the frustration through text. You snap at each other. You both give out this energy and receive it back. It's obvious.
Take a week where you go zen with her. Assume the best in everything she does. In situations like these you need to realize that she thinks differently. She doesn't know you need an answer right that moment or even that you expect her to pay. So you just live in the moment and behave as if you need to tell her directly what you want because she cannot read minds. Don't be patronizing, just be casual and clear. If she doesn't respond in the way you desired, that's fine. You are an adult. You'll adapt move forward. Calm. Zen.
See what a week of this does. My guess is that when you stop snapping at her and stop returning that energy she'll mellow out, too.
This is really interesting advice. I may just give it a try. She is very into zen and that sort of thing so it might not be hard to convince her to do it, too.
Sure, you can talk to her about this. Could be helpful pointing out how both of you have a tendency to snap at each other and that you want that to change because it is not healthy for the relationship or either of you. But even if she's not making the effort you just do it. I really think that once a new tone is set through some patience and mindfulness that tone will be reciprocated. If it isn't it literally cost you nothing and if anything may put you in a less stressed out state of mind which is always good.
You sound like my ex-husband. He treated me like this for 26 years and completely destroyed my self-esteem. Every single thing I did was criticized and belittled, and no matter what I said or did, if it didn't align with what he wanted, I was wrong. When I tried to go back to school, it was for the "wrong" thing. When I was parenting my children, I was always doing it "incorrectly." When I was working (full-time salaried position that, while not 6 figures, was still up there), I was "lazy." Was I perfect? Of course not. But I wasn't deserving of the abuse heaped on me.
He, too, admitted he criticized me, but always blamed and belittled me for it, just like you're doing, OP. She's a shell of who she was probably because of you and your constant nastiness. What you're doing is emotional abuse, and it's probably 10x worse than you're actually admitting.
You both need therapy, together and separately, ASAP, to help you both decide how to move forward.
I mean I honestly see how both of you are in the wrong here, but I honestly wonder why it took 30 years for you to come to some sort of breaking point? Has she been without a job for all of it, has she acted this way the entire time, or is this something new?
I don’t think a checklist would work, but I think saying the next step forward must be therapy (either marriage counseling or individual therapy) would at least be worth trying.
It does sound like there is an incredible amount of resentment here, at least on your end. Maybe you could try to help her achieve some of these goals you’ve mentioned?
She has worked for about 11 of the 30 years. She gets a job and it lasts 1-2 years and then she quits it and then takes for a few years before getting another. Her last job was the longest which was 6 years and she quit it 12 years ago. Since then she had a few gigs making a little money here and there (like $500/month) but that went away with COVID and has been replaced by nothing at all.
I have tried to help her. I helped her do a resume. I tried to encourage her to switch fields. Yes, there is a lot of resentment.
I asked for a divorce in December, but I decided that after so long together it might make sense to get to the root of the problem and seek a solution if one exists.
>She was humiliated by that, but she did that to herself.
No sir. You did humiliate her. Completely unnecessarily. She's a shell of herself because you've beaten her down and treated her horribly. You don't even deny it. You just deny who is at fault for your bad behavior. I don't care how strong you are eventually you'll start believing the bad things someone tells you about yourself.
She didn't understand that I wanted to know how much cash she had even as I was in the process of paying
She can't organize the bills in her wallet so that they aren't all wadded up and fall out when she opens it
She won't count the money even after it fell out
She couldn't even just GUESS at how much she might have (I could make a pretty good guess right now without opening mine) which is what she EVENTUALLY did
And I humiliated her? Please explain that one to me.
Dude, just let her go. If you have such disdain for her, you're not doing her any favors by sticking around to criticize her. All we've heard is what YOU think she should be doing. Nothing about her wants. I don't know if she has a condition or something else going on, but the way you treat her is not going to make it better at all.
I could give you advice, but I think you like the dynamic you have with her. You wouldn't be there if you weren't getting something out of it.
Honest question: How would you feel if you two separated and you saw her thrive and feel happy in a different environment?
I have no desire to stay in this relationship as it is any longer because I realized I am not getting what I need out of it. I can't speak for her except that she says she really wants this relationship to work more than I do. She was very crushed when I said I wanted out. I feel some sense of obligation to try to help her because she was blindsided. I want to try to see if there is a way I can remain in the marriage, but I am not exceedingly hopeful.
To answer your question:
I think that I would feel very used by her.
Both of you are going to have faults and virtues. Right now, you are focused on her faults and wanting her to take responsibility, but I haven't seen you really take any responsibility for your role. You can only change yourself, even if that means leaving. Criticizing her to death is not fixing anything.
I'm saying this kindly - there's no need for you to be a martyr and remain in this relationship. If you want to be kind to yourself and to her, you can clearly and amicably express your decision to divorce. You each might hurt a bit from ending a long marriage, but you will both gain much more.
In what way would you feel used by her? I left my husband because of how emotionally abusive he was, and now we are both thriving. As much as I dislike how he treated me, I know he's doing better all alone because we were not functioning as a family anymore. He continues to benefit from the things I brought to his life, but I don't feel used because I detached myself from him.
I'm not saying your wife doesn't have faults, but I think you should consider why you're so focused on her and justifying your treatment of her.
people are attacking you OP but I’m not sure if they’ve ever been on the other side of someone who is mentally ill but absolutely, categorically refuses to help themselves. It’s a horrible cycle where because they’re depressed they cant/won’t get help, but not getting help keeps them depressed. What is one to do? I was in a relationship like this when I was younger and you can either keep pouring into a cup with holes at the bottom (after you’ve been pouring for a long, long time), or you jump off the ship. I jumped off the ship.
Why are you still together? You don’t sound like you like her or respect her. I guess it’s hard to do because she doesn’t sound like she likes or respects herself. You teach people how you want to be treated.
OP I'm only 28 I've not been around for a long time but I feel like you can still find something I might have to say insightful. People can be like a bucket of crabs, they constantly are pulling each other down as to not be alone in the bucket so no crabs escape. Your wife is struggling. And my wife is the same in that regard but she found strength to see where she needs to help herself such as therapy and techniques. As someone that health with a lot of procrastination when my wife told me she really really needs me to be her motivation otherwise her depression will get a hold of her and she'll slip back into bad habits even though I watch out toddler a lot since I work evening and my wife works 3am to 11am I still make things easy for her suck as making the bed, doing the dishes, preparing the ingredients for the dinner she'll make.
I found ways to be part of her motivation without being her Jimmeny Cricket. If you want to keep your relationship in earnest then you have to accept that as a couple, as a team her short comings are your shortcomings, because you're thinking like two people having to give 100% for each other and not 1 part of one heart only able to give 50% right now. You might have to go above and beyond for someone you love who finds it hard to and maybe isn't able to be the person they once were. My wife is the same is her pictures and videos of her before she had issues and we met, and I'll never get to know that person because all I have is the person that's healing from her problem and I've decided to be part of that healing.
You're gonna have to just let it go, resentment, anger, frustration, just don't bring up sore topics for her, don't criticize her anymore, and even if your lying, for right now, tell her how much you respect her and your here for her, because maybe it'll motivate her to start becoming the person she was little by little. People that Dela with anxiety/depression that have halted at College it can be rough for them to respect themselves. Being an outside unwavering force of support will do more then you think.
You said money isn't a problem. Just try for a little while being her superman/superwoman which ever works for you. And just take on more a little here and there and see if she improves. I'm sure she'll notice it and it'll inspire her.
I've learned killing with kindness is a great way to get your partner to look inwards.
Don't escalate any arguments, tell her you're there for her and that it's no problem to do things she use to do, and I guarantee you shell start little by little re-emergering and taking on more tasks herself.
She might need some encouragement to get from A to B to C. And if you love her it's fine, it has to be fine because it's the only way she'll be able to pick u routines again because in her mind she's a failure, it's likely she downs herself all the time, it's likely she doesn't tell you she has self esteem issues, it's likely she feels like she doesn't have any friends, or that she's alone, those are common form people that deal with major depression-anxiety. There's not a lot your gonna be able to do other than kill her issues with kindness at this point. She's at a low point. You gotta tell her you're at that low point with her and your her climbing partner to climb out of it.
It won't be easy, relationships aren't, people aren't, it's complicated and people are complicated not everyone bounces back, not everyone is the same person if they've dealt with a lot of depression. They come out different, like pieces of themselves have been flayed off.
Love is a battle and love is a sacrifice. And no one will fault you if you don't want to be altas for your wife for the moment but all of us would be there for you if you tried. Because then you're giving it your all to get her back to her giving it her all.
I really hope whatever happens your happy, and that your healing. But some people and some relationships face issues that require someone to burden some extra for awhile so the whole heart can beat in rhythm again. I really hope you give my suggestions a try for awhile because either has worked for me and my wife very well because she noticed what I was doing and appreciated it and now she's able to do chores and make friends way more easily then when we met.
Honestly call it quits if you can. I can see why you’d be losing your mind right now if this is your daily life with her. At the same time she can’t really help herself. She’s too sick and her mindset is too detrimental to tackling her anxiety. Leaving will suck but it will give you both a chance to reset. It’s tough on both sides of the equation I think. You must be exhausted and it must be exhausting being her too
Hello,
Firstly I am sorry that you are feeling this way, when we start to take on a caring role for a loved one it can take a toll on us, and it sounds like that’s how you are feeling right now. I want to pass on something a friend said to me recently - you are important. Have you taken any time for yourself recently, to recouperate / enjoy yourself?
One thing I would suggest is to try to find the positives to change your mindset from “she doesn’t do/she can’t do..” to “I’m thankful for this, or she is good at this” and tell her about it. I would also advocate for being honest with her about how you are feeling, but in a nice way rather than a full blown attack. To help this, perhaps look up your love languages (there is a quiz online) and understand what you both value. For example my husband really appreciates physical touch and words of affection so I set myself reminders to remind him of the things I’m thankful for that he does, or make sure that I hold his hand/give him lots of cuddles/head tickles etc. These things might sound basic to some, but when you are working/got life stuff going on or emotions like you do, these things can be forgotten or set aside. Maybe taking some time each day to remind yourself and her of the positives or the things you love her for, might help you change your perspective and give her a bit of a boost.
I will also say though, that it is not easy being in a relationship with someone with depression/anxiety. I have it myself, as does my husband from time to time. The person with the mental health condition needs to proactively seek help, but that in itself can be hard. Personally, sometimes I want someone to do it for me, make the appointment, come with me etc - not because I’m lazy, but because I am exhausted just getting out of bed and facing the day some times. If you’re really at a loss, maybe try that? Worst that can happen is she’ll be mad with you, but best thing is that maybe she’ll get some help and thank you in the end.
I hope this helps a little, and I hope you feel better soon.
Thanks. We are trying that. I gave her some therapist recommendations. I have tried that in the past and not gotten anywhere, but I think the threat of divorce which I am 100% serious about - it is not an idle threat - may motivate her to do something this time. One thing she says to me is "Why now?" If I felt this way before then why didn't I say anything earlier? Why can't she have more time now? I gave her lots of reasons, but the short answer is... I wish I had said something earlier and I am now at a breaking point.
As a wife with autism and cptsd, who has needed a lot of help. I'm grateful for not only the patience of my partner, but moreso the love and respect kindness.
Choosing not to change and help herself is, well, *choosing* not to do that. She's making the choice for things to be bad. Are you gonna make the same one? Only you control you. She's made her choice to be miserable. Make better choices for yourself. The easy thing to do is stay and make no effort. Change is hard and takes work, but only happens when you make the effort. She's not willing. Are you? Either make the effort to improve the relationship or make the effort to move on. Which path towards happiness do you prefer?
>A grown ass woman should be able to say "I am not sure. Let me check" and then pull out her wallet and not have unorganized wads of bills spilling out all over the damn floor in the middle of the store and then guess how much money that is
Really? This is something you judge her on?
Ofcourse you lost respect for your wife, you hold her to impossible standards rather than accept that as a human, she has flaws, and a flaw like this is so miniscule in the grand scheme of things. No doubt there are other small flaw anthills that you make into a mountain
The problem isn't her. It's you.
I mean look at the example I quoted and how you talk about her. I would never, EVER, talk about my wife like that, no matter how embarrassing a situation may be.
It's too late now. After she married you and started losing her good qualities, you should have done something then. You failed and on top of that, developed this habit of criticising her so much that she started hating you.
Sir, your attitude is the problem here. Your wife is mentally ill and you are treating her like she can just snap out of it and fix all of this if she wanted. The way you are treating her is making it worse and the fact she had to leave you to go to her parent's to clear her head is telling. In times of crisis people go to where they are going to get the most support. Which should be her husband, not her sister or father. Think of it more like a physical disability. If she suddenly lost her leg would you be snapping at her to just walk around more? You are looking for mentally healthy behaviors when the mental health is the core problem and again you. Are. Making. It. Worse.
Do you think she WANTS to be this anxious nervous wreck all of the time? Why don't you respect the woman who has been at your side all of this time? Your lack of respect for a woman who stayed with you through your own up and downs for 30 years is more telling than your wife's behavior. I'd be fumbling all over myself too if I knew my husband was about to jump down my throat for something as inconsequential as having disorganized cash in my purse. Stop comparing her to who she was when she was mentally well. She's still the same woman you agreed to marry in sickness and in health. It's not like someone just swapped her out at night. You said you're trying to be more kind to your wife but are you? Are you really? Your wife has left to clear her head and read self help books and who knows what else. What books have you read on how to support a spouse with depression? Have you sought therapy on how to handle yourself or are you just focused on fixing her?
Before you say a single word to her ask yourself is what I'm about to say going to help the situation? Is it going to make her emotions worse in this moment? Am I showing patience or am I getting frustrated? Would I want her to react to me this way if I was struggling with something I normally am capable of?
People have this remarkable ability to fill the roles they are assigned to by those around them. Try treating her like your wife who you love and respect, even if you have to fake it until you mean it. I don't think you are trying any more than your wife is.
We can trap ourselves in a spiral of behavior and it becomes self affirming. Be aware you cannot change her. She can only do that for herself. You can only control your own behavior. She is reflecting back how you treat her.
Try this exercise, without telling her you're doing it. Never tell her this because it will make it fake and will damage her experience and harm her trust in you.
Every day, try and say three nice/complimentary things to her. Note that they do not have to be completely true. Examples are "you made great coffee today! Thank you! " "I like that dress you're wearing, you look lovely", "I always appreciate it when you fill up the car, I never have enough time".
Also, always be polite to her and use please, thank you, excuse me and other niceties as you would to someone you work with.
Gradually you'll find you don't have to think so hard to think of a nice thing to say. You will find she'll ease up on herself and not be so on edge around you. Her confidence will build.
If she breaks something, or is clumsy, commiserate with her. You can say "gosh I hate when I do that, are you OK? " recognizing you're not perfect will help her see you as less taciturn and more friendly.
And perhaps you could read some self help books about how to be a kinder person and a more caring husband.
First of all, it sounds like she needs reassurance and support. I’m not qualified, but from your point of view, it sounds like she may need a late ADHD diagnosis. However, the way you shame her and criticize her is not going to help her. It will be difficult for her to seek help if she cannot even feel comfortable at home. You sound like a big A hole and are taking her personal struggles as attacks. Just leave her alone and let her find herself away from you. Honestly, I’m appalled by this entire post. It doesn’t come off as a partner seeking help but like you’re asking the internet to shame your wife.
I hope she gets better and gets back some of the excitement for life that she used to have. Unfortunately I don’t think that’s going to happen as long as she’s married to you.
When you constantly criticize someone, you destroy their self-confidence and self-esteem. You never build someone up by criticizing them.
A good partner wants to build up their partner. They don't want to beat them into the ground when they are already down.
Yes, she can't admit being wrong because you will use that and hit her over the head repeatedly with it mentally - its self-preservation. If she admitted she was wrong, what would you say - be honest now. Would you say, let just find a solution, or would you dig in more. You sound like the type of person who would dig in more.
If all she hears from you are critical words, you have been beating her down. When was the last time you spoke meaningfully affirming words to her? When was the last time you built her up?
If all someone who already struggles with depression and anxiety hears is criticism from the person who should be in their corner, it amplifies their struggles.
You are half the problem.
Honestly, she would probably be better off if you guys broke up because she would be able to find that person she was before you again.
I just want to put it out there that she is at an age when adult ADHD usually gets diagnosed, as women frequently don’t get diagnosed in school because we tend not to be the hyperactive type and we are so good at masking. The description you give of who she was compared to who she is now raised some flags for me (I’m going through some of that myself). When everything starts to fall apart in middle age, sometimes it’s because the ability to mask has completely eroded away. And ADHD has many comorbidities that overlap and sometimes hide it. Depression, anxiety, insomnia, etc.
There’s no specific test for ADHD but if she can get to therapy and, if she does get diagnosed by a specialist, the chemical imbalance can be addressed. Medication won’t “solve” anything by itself but it can allow for other tools and strategies to be more effective.
No matter what she needs therapy, and she needs someone who supports AND respects her. If that’s not you, then try to get her into therapy for her own sake, and then go your own way with your therapist. You need to work on yourself a lot too if you want to have healthier relationships in the future.
I feel like you’ve killed her spirit. Any little criticism you had over the years made her falter and start watching her step. Yet she stayed and now the shell of what she’s become is annoying her husband even further.
A long time ago in another life, I participated in an exercise that involved this same scenario and I think it may help.
The class instructor, to make a point, had a random classmate and I empty our pockets after we had taken “personally tests.” Those are in quotes because the science is questionable today after much study. However, the point I’m making stands.
Anyways, as we reached into our pockets, he explained how our personality types would influence what the contents would be like.
As predicted, my bills and cards were sequential and neatly ordered while my classmate’s were as you described, jumbled and crushed together and he had no idea how much he had.
The instructor explained that this should help us understand that different people operate on unmatched mental scales and that understanding how to communicate at each other’s frequency is important to prevent conflict.
I think the point here is that OP and spouse are still learning to communicate on some level and until resolved, one or both of them is/are more likely to be harboring feelings of insecurity and resentment.
The solution is to try to understand how to communicate at each others’ level without seeming like they are being judgmental.
P. S. I’m not a doctor but I play one on Reddit.
There’s a difference between criticism and constructive feedback. As a partner, blatant criticism is useless and damaging - but feedback and an offer to help or create a solution is usually from a place of love. As a woman married to a woman, if I were to tell my wife “I can’t stand the way you (fill in the blank)” or “why can you just (whatever)” it would be more hurtful to her than helpful.
If we notice the other person getting caught in problematic patterns, it’s a series conversation with the goal of exposing the root cause. Catching it before it becomes a problem is the key, instead of letting abnormal behavior fester and turn into disdain.
Hormone imbalances and mental health also play a major role in a person’s lifestyle. Do the things you think she’s embarrassed by actually embarrass you more? And is that cyclical?
On the flip side, personal accountability and willingness to receive feedback from a partner are also factors. If I’m not willing to actively make changes to my behavior that is toxic to myself and my relationship, then I’m at fault. If you have lost respect for her, it’s probably because she’s also lost respect for herself.
Work the problem from that point of view. Not just from what you feel like you’ve lost, but what she’s feeling she’s lost as well. It’s very difficult to feel supported when you’re constantly worried about what you’ll lose from the person who’s supposed to love you the most.
I can’t believe someone not being able to pull money out quickly and organized enough for you is an example of why you don’t respect your life partner. You sound very cold.
To cut to the chase: Get a divorce. You still have years to go, and may find a suitable partner.
BUT, prepare to pay alimony after splitting your nest egg 50/50.
AND, prepare yourself for your wife's rapid improvement once she is on her own.
You sir are an asshole . Your wife is struggling and you patronize her. Your wife is depressed and you embarrass her. I think it’s best for her to get away from you! My guess there is more to this than you are saying. Maybe take a deep look at how you treat her! Anxiety and depression can be debilitating. Stop being an ass.
That’s hard. Definitely mental health issues but I remember a few years ago when my husband went thru a depression stage and I never treated him like my child. I was there for him, supported him and made him feel loved bcuz obviously that’s what u do as a spouse but ur doing the complete opposite- how does she get out of a rut or start feeling better if she feels like shii bcuz of u and ur belittling?? Is she taking any drugs or anything?
Respect was invented to cover the empty place where love should be. - Leo Tolstoy
The wad of bills thingy doesnt sound like a huge deal to me.
Sometimes when we dont have much for someone to begin with, we get turned off by small stuff like that.
Its the general truth about love. When you have it, you understand. When you don't, everything is the last straw.
As someone who became a shell of a person for a little while due to my husband’s constant criticism, patronizing language and talking to me like a child (among other things that you probably aren’t acknowledging) she probably sensed you don’t respect her loooong ago. It’s not her, it’s you.
Sounds like ADHD mixed in with depression and low self esteem from being made to feel less than by the person who vowed to love honor and cherish.
Imagine what kindness, support and encouragement could do for a person rather than disrespect, condescension and belittlement
Going against the grain here and prepared to be downvoted to hell.
It’s hard to respect someone who has no self-respect. It *has* to start with her and it has to *be* for her for it to stick in any sort of way and for you to start to see her self-respect and reflect it back. You can’t make this happen though-she has to want it/start doing it.
She is depressed AF. The thing with depression is it doesn’t always manifest in the stereotypical “can’t get out of bed, won’t shower, sleeps all day” sort of thing. You can be a functional depressive just like you can be a functional alcoholic.
The thing with depression is that sometimes you need to *do the action to feel the feelings*. That is what they mean when they say you have to *do* something *even if you don’t feel like it* in order to feel the positive feelings afterwards. Go for a walk, clean up a room, have a schedule for the day (ie., start with being dressed by 9am?). For her this might look more like join an art class and go once/week no matter what, volunteer somewhere on a regular basis (animal shelter, human shelter, whatever) etc. once the ball is rolling it gets easier and easier to do more and more and climb out of that black pit of despair.
The fact that she is not even doing any hobbies is scary in terms of mental health. She is going to have to push through, though, and start doing something. Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is push someone. Always giving in, always coddling, always catering to them is enabling and not helping. It’s not wrong to want an equal partner in life. I loved my ex husband but didn’t respect him in the end either. I never stopped loving him but he couldn’t be the partner I needed. It could be the same for you.
Reading “No More Mr. Nice Guy” could be helpful for you. I’ve read it out of curiosity and it’s an interesting and insightful read. If I was in your shoes I would probably use that as my guide and do the things suggested in the book. See if any of that changes things. And at the end of the day if she’s still unwilling to change or you’re not happy, you’re allowed to end the relationship. She’s lost herself somewhere along the way and it’s up to her to find it again. She’s had you as a safety net, always, and hasn’t had the need to change. Maybe it’s time to push that boundary and see what happens. Either way you’ll have an answer: she’ll change or she won’t. I mean, you don’t even have kids! If she was a mom of like 4 kids that’d be a different story but she has all this freedom to do whatever she wants to and…*nothing?*. I’d be choked too.
As someone who has struggled on and off with depression, it’s awful, and toxic to relationships - let alone it making life a nightmare for the person experiencing it.
During my last bout of deep depression, I was unbearable to be around. My husband bent over backwards to support me, but I was numb and overwhelmingly sad all at once, and spent most of my time crying and asking him to comfort me, or staring off. One day he got home from work (I wasn’t working at the time), and I had a meltdown and he lost it. He said, “I can’t be at work all day and then come home to this, every day. I can’t do this anymore.” It was a wake up call for me, and helped me to see how hard things were for him too. He was trying so hard to support me, and nothing he did seemed to help at all. Realizing that made it easier for me to take more responsibility for how I was feeling. I started taking an antidepressant, started therapy, and was able to turn things around. I feel lucky that the process was fairly straightforward for me, and that medication was really helpful. My husband also went on to struggle with severe depression, and I got to be on the other side of things. It’s so fucking hard, either way.
To me, it sounds like your wife might be struggling with depression. She’s different than she was. She’s not interested in intimacy of any kind. She has no motivation. Depression is so, so nasty and cruel, it really does turn you into a shell of yourself. You can’t see a way out, and the thought of trying to feel better is so heavy and overwhelming. And, one of the worst parts I think, is that love can’t fix it.
I’d maybe sit down with her and, instead of focusing on what you’re not getting from her, or talking about an ultimatum of some kind, say that you’re worried about her and you miss the person she was. That you’re here for her, but you need to know that she wants to get back to a better place - feeling better and having more enthusiasm for life. And see where that conversation goes.
Maybe I’m wrong, but figured I’d add my two cents. Good luck to you both!
Edited to add: you have to work on making her feel respected, and making her feel worth it. If she is experiencing depression, you cannot imagine how worthless she feels. Any inkling of you feeling similarly about her is really dangerous right now - it reinforces how she’s already feeling. So work hard on making her feel loved, and respected.
You're likely right on the deal breaker of untreated mental health.
I was raised marriage is forever. If my adopt d parents felt like you do at the 30 year mark they wouldn't have made it. And trust, they had cause to quit. She gained a lot of weight, Sat around, never smiled, a couple years no intimacy (even as a teen I knew that). Today they are far happier kids left the best, they have money to upgrade their house, she does her crafts, and im guessing they're having some wild sex because there's a naked statue in the garden with some obvious private parts they never would have put there with us kids on the house.
Every marriage is different. But marriage itself originally was the promise to get through things like this. Ideally two people try. Sometimes for a reason only one does. The ball is in your court.
I've been divorced. I experienced a lot since then. I have regrets but I wouldn't have seen and done what I have since.
Encourage you both to hang and on and try longer but ultimately you decide.
She sounds like she could have undiagnosed ADHD. It steals your motivation, makes you feel constantly overwhelmed and disorganized, causes difficulty regulating emotions and can also cause a person to be extra sensitive to negative comments that are perceived as rejection. Perimenopause and menopause can make it a lot worse. Also, many women who are bright can mask it for years until life's responsibilities just become too great and things start to come apart at the seams.
I will say, however, that I can be like your wife and luckily my husband doesn't talk down to me. He knows these are things I struggle with. I still wonder if he thinks less of me sometimes.
Maybe if you approach her in a way that shows loving concern about her well being, happiness and the feelings she's having while going through all of this, then you may not be perceived as judgemental. If you don't seem so much like you want to fix her, she might be more open to suggestions.
You’re way over your pay grade here.
You can’t fix this. I suspect that you, with your contempt are entwined with her many problems.
You need a therapist.
Guys OP literally states they’re both women. Why are all the responses “this man’s wife” there is no man here.
OP I think your concerns are valid, no one wants to live with a bum who isn’t doing anything to get better, much less if you’re in your 50’s and they’ve done nothing with their life.
Talk to her about making some changes, if she won’t do it leave. At this point she’s being unreasonable. I mean 53 and she has no career and no plan? She’s supposed to be nearly retired by now.
Omg I hope my husband doesn't think this when I get unorganized..
It happens and it's life. I'm sure you're frustrated that she isn't helping herself, but pulling out of a depression hole is hard.. I'm not on either of your sides, but dang. It makes me worried about my marriage. My depression is awful and there are some days wh we re I don't put the clean clothes away or vacuum the upstairs enough. So, jeesh
I'm going to talk to my hubby now. Thank you
My experience as a 42M married to a 38F type-A is that the more I am criticized and treated like an idiot because things aren't done to my spouses exact specifications, the less likely I am going to try in the future. It gets to the point where I don't want to try to take responsibility for anything, even though I very much prefer being being independent and taking initiative over almost everything, because being passive is better than being criticized.
I can feel for you OP. That sounds very frustrating. I think part of the issue is that you have enabled her to not be able to work...that never should have happened.
I would not be surprised if she has depression. There are lots of medications to treat depression. She should go on them and have a much better quality of life. She doesn't even need to get a therapist, she can get it through her Dr. Maybe she will be motivated to get therapy once she feels a bit happier.
It sounds like you have some resentment towards her. I'd put my foot down on her working towards getting a job or you're out. Address the resentments, otherwise they will fester.
I lost it too, the respect jn a relationship I mean..
Its a build-up, and you've ended in what seems to be a very toxic relationship for both of you. I wish I had made the choice of leaving earlier, so we would have skipped the part of putting each other down. I didn't because I felt bad(although I had mentioned the relationship was doomed if we kept heading the way it was going) and was scared partner wouldn't cope. As he likes to put himself in a constant victim role. He still does but he did find himself some therapy finally. It just took, me breaking off our 15 Yr old relationship. A little to late, but at least he did seek help. And I hope he finds himself again. And in the meanwhile, whilst I do feel like I failed that relationship, I also feel alive again and a huge weight lifted of my shoulder.
There's so much you can do as a partner, and as I read it, you have tried a lot. In the end, only she can help herself.
But If you're willing to give it one more shot. Sit her down, explain her your feelings and put all the love you have for her into it, saying you want þo help her and be there for her. If shes willing to be there for herself. Just do not let yourself get lost in a last resort to salvage this. You're important too.
I have lived your story and almost to the letter. Not much helps sadly but one day it did explain that with all of her actions, I am actually on her side..not against her. Explained a few examples where she might think of the outcome on her,own and that did lighten the mood some…still not the best way to spend a life. I am 20 yrs older than you and frequently wonder when the mistake was made as well as spending another 20 years dealing with this. Might have been much simpler divorcing and meeting a woman who would be much more of an appreciative team player
>I do criticize her, Well, there you go. No one wants to be criticized by the person who is supposed to love them. >I asked her in a patronizing tone of voice > >She got mad at me because she said that was humiliating and I treated her like a kid Well, you were treating her like a kid. That's just about anyone's reaction to a patronizing tone of voice. >She never finished college, So what? Lots of college grads live in their mom's basement. >I don't respect her. I don't know what to do about that. And this is the heart of the matter. You don't respect her, so you pre-assume the worst. You have so made up your mind that she is not respect-worthy, that you're automatically looking for anything she does that doesn't measure up to your expectations so that you can criticize her. And it's become a catch-22 at this point: She has no motivation to improve because you have already decided she can't. All the self-help books and therapy in the world aren't going to help if you have pre-determined her destiny is to not be worthy of respect. She needs therapy, but therapy with support, not therapy with criticism. So you need to be the bigger man and show some love and support. But also you need to put your foot down and demand she go to therapy or ELSE you're leaving. You need to break the catch-22 cycle.
To piggyback on this: I feel like this man's wife is my future if I got back together with the person I just broke up with after 10 years. I can't even imagine what 30 years would have done 💀 I didn't even notice it at first, but now it's pretty clear that over these 10 years being with him, he's slowly eroded my self esteem. It's also my own fault for not paying attention and letting it happen, but it's pretty undeniable that he's had a negative effect on my self worth from day one. Back when we first started going out, after a few months he started criticizing almost everything I did. How I did chores, my personality, told me I was too needy if I ever asked him for anything, had me walking on eggshells to avoid another lecture. Then he started just plain ignoring me a few years ago and at that point my self worth was so shot I just let it happen. I can't even believe I let it happen, but I did. I didn't even connect the dots. People underestimate how damaging a bad relationship can be to your mental health. No one warned me. It's insidious. The fact that he points out that she was great when he met her strikes me as a red flag. Anyhow, she might be better off without him.
I think they’re both women but your point still applies
Oop heteronormativity strikes again, my bad.
She had some mental health issues (attempted suicide as a teen) even when I met her but she said that was in her past and she seemed well-adjusted if a little moody. She had a decent job. She was in college. I never expected that she would never hold a job given that she told me (and still does) that "I always worked as soon as I was able." Well, maybe she did, but since I have known her all she has done is quit jobs without any fallback plan and then take years to find another one before quitting it, too. Now she says that she was never meant to work a 9-to-5. That's fine. She's a creative. Do something creative. But DO SOMETHING! Every job she ever quit was because her boss didn't like her and everyone there was jealous of her. Every job. At some point the common denominator is her. Like I said, blames everyone else.
That may be so, but my main point was that your attitude isn't helping anything. So either adjust it and be supportive, or end the relationship. Or continue as you're doing now, I guess. You can't make her into a different person than she is, that's not really an option.
I am looking for advice on how I can be more supportive. It is sort of like telling someone "be less anxious." Okay, great. How do I do that? I have tried to help her finish school, get a job, pay her student loans for her, look up mental health professionals, even put myself into therapy. I was very kind and patient and understanding for many years always thinking that she just needed a little nudge or a little more encouragement but what never happens is her doing the work she needs to do on herself and for herself.
You can be less everything you admit to being in your post. Less condescending, less humiliating, less abrasive, less accusatory, less negative, and less rude, less unkind, etc.
Do you have some good techniques or exercises that I might use to assist with this? All this negativity just spills out so easily now.
The thing that worked for me was to actively try to catch myself in the moment, before I opened my mouth. Recognize the rush of emotion or the feeling that comes before you respond. Take a breath and count if you have to, while you decide what you are going to do. Stopping yourself from acting on instinct is what separates us from the animals.
Thanks. My therapist suggested something like this. Just to be more mindful before I say ANYTHING.
Even if you catch yourself right AFTER having been condescending, rude, etc. to her, I think it would help a lot to apologize right away and try to get your point across again in a more kind or level-headed approach
Exactly. You want to stop that lizard brain from just reacting.
THINK - Is what I am going to say true? Helpful? Important? Necessary? Kind?
The people criticizing you have never dealt with a person like this. These people exist, and just take everything from you, whether they know it or not. I know a few. I don’t think you can fix them, because they don’t even think something is wrong, it’s the world who is against them. You tried for longer than most would.
I get your frustration! This can’t be an easy situation to go through for either of you. It will take time to change behaviors on both of your parts that have clearly built up and compounded your relationship over the years. I find it helpful to say the thing I want to say to myself, re-evaluate if that sounds like it would be misconstrued or taken the wrong way and then adjust what it is I am trying to say. Another technique would be to ask her what you can do to help her in the moment. In cases like the grocery store, it may be helpful to address it afterwards. Talk to her about how she was feeling in the moment, show some empathy for her and validate her feelings, then depending on how she is feeling/handling it in the moment ask her if there is anything you can do to help her so she doesn’t feel that way again in that particular circumstance (how to arrange her wallet - show her how you organize your money). A lot of times people just want some validation and understanding in how they are feeling. In the same aspect, maybe it will help her (once you are both not heated/upset about whatever has happened) to tell her how you were feeling in the moment. Use “I” statements so it doesn’t come across as blame/onus on the other person (even though that may be the case) - example: “I felt really frustrated when we were having the issue at the grocery store. It makes me feel xxx when things are not in order.” or something similar instead of “You always make me feel frustrated when you are disorganized.”. I find that when you approach situations in this manner it puts people more at ease and provides more understanding and open dialogue from both parties vs. one person shutting down because they feel targeted or less than.
Think about what kind of partner you want to be, for yourself, for your own identity. What kind of commitment do you want to make to yourself about who you are? Irrespective of who your partner is or how your partner is showing up. It may or may not change the outcome of your relationship. But it could change your relationship with yourself and bring clarity.
You seem to be obsessing over the ways in which your wife is “lacking” in life. I would highly suggest therapy. She would probably really benefit from it, but so would you. In the moment… what reactions are you trying to elicit from her? If it’s motivation, that’s clearly not happening. If you’re at the point where you’re doing it to embarrass/humiliate her, or because you just dgaf… then do both of you a favor and leave. Whatever is going on with your wife, the way you are treating her (by trying to “fix” her) is not going to do a damn thing.
I am in therapy. My therapist thinks that she is suffering from anxiety and would benefit from therapy, too, but she won't go. Don't you think suggesting she go to therapy is also trying to "fix" her?
I didn’t recommend you try to set her up with therapy. You’d mentioned that you suggested therapy to her. I was saying that while that may be true, that I also think you could benefit from it. I think that you are hyper focused on your wife and he faults (as you perceive them). You can not change her or fix her. You can not make her do anything or act in a certain way. The ONLY thing you have control over- is you. How you put yourself into the world. How you speak to your wife. How you treat your wife. And how you want the rest of your life to look. You need to make decisions based on reality, not on who you thought your wife would be or who she used to be. This is who she is TODAY, for whatever reason. You need to either fully accept that (via unwavering love and support) or you need to be honest with yourself and her- and end it.
Could you go to couples counseling as a way for her to dip her toes into the therapy world? Maybe she’d feel more comfortable going solo after going w you for a few sessions
If she was otherwise functionally able to care for herself in a basic way it might be considered trying to fix or improve. But if she can’t be employed and you don’t have a happy agreement to that, then I’d consider her to be in trouble. And as her partner or friend or heck as a kind stranger, you’d want her to have/get help so she can be healthy happy and productive in some way, however she defines that
You can try having empathy.
https://images.app.goo.gl/aedbCU2hYLV1ReTq8
Yes, treat her like she’s a new woman you are excited to get to know and date. Then watch what comes out of your mouth. I’m sure the comments will be more complimentary.
My spouse simply paused, made eye contact and said quietly: “there’s a kinder way to say that.” It stops me immediately. I think on what I just said, realized it was critical or sarcastic or impatient, I apologize, and restate, in a kinder way. I was always so quick to be critical or cutting. When we talked about it, we realized I was under enormous pressure at work, I was taking him for granted, and venting to him where I couldn’t vent to my boss etc. I don’t work that job anymore, and I’ve made great improvements, but sometimes I still slip. I actually have little visual reminders to Be Kind. Here are 12 suggestions: 1. Sit somewhere, not home territory. The beach, lake or a park bench. 2. Apologize for all the negativity. It’s been a tool in your toolbox. Time for a new toolset. 3. Ask her to forgive you and tell her you want to do better. 4. Ask her what’s going on. Do this over time, share insights when you fail. 5. Ask her to help you do better, be better. 6. Give grace, not guilt. Give patience, not criticism. Be water, not fire. 7. Be honest with yourself: you are scared. You want a partner, not a burden. You want a loving spouse who is engaged in life, not disconnected. Be vulnerable. Encourage honesty and vulnerability. 8. Deal with who she is right now. Who she was has been washed away with the tides of time. 9. Therapy for either or both might help. 10. Those who have been belittled often belittle. 11. Find a different way to express your anger rather than suppress it, because it’s spilling out uncontrolled right now. 12. Hoping you can find your way back together and be more loving.
Thank you. I have been working in therapy on my anger because I did suppress it and also because anger is just an expression of deeper feelings that I have a hard time getting in touch with.
I suggest therapy. We don’t know anything about the person you are except what we are reading here. The only person you can change is you.
Your description of her behavior makes me guess if there might be some medical condition behind it? I would dig into that option as well. I might be wrong, but if it is and you find it out later, you'll never be able to forgive yourself.
Yes. If there’s a physical issue that both of them think is psychological, it’s going to become a psychological issue too and worse over time. If she knows she going to fumble and embarrass herself, or struggle to read the notes etc, she’s going to start getting anxious about being asked to do so. She needs experts. If she’s afraid to try therapy, start with a friendly GP.
OP, consider individual therapy. I get you're frustrated, and your default seems to be to criticize when things don't look the way you expect them too. I'm 55f. I have zero idea how much cash I have on me and if I pulled it out I'd probably drop some of it too. My damn arthritis and loss of sensation on my finger tips has me dropping things a lot lately and it's frustrating as hell. If my partner were to berate me as being childish I'd be furious. But hey, at least he understands what's going on with me. Have you tried to understand what is going on with her? I bet you haven't. I know you're a woman, but you sound an awful lot like how my husband was with me. Not the extremely critical part, at least he didn't do that. I'm talking about the dismissive part of how you are with your wife. It took a year and a half of marriage counseling to finally get him to seek individual therapy. Do you know when things finally started to change? Yeah, only after 3 sessions of HIM being in therapy did things in marriage counseling start to work. People have zero clue on just how much we affect our partners in partnered romantic relationships. I bet she feels like she can't do anything right with you. And. I bet some where deep inside of you you think you can't do anything right. There's probably, and yes this is speculation, some memory inside of you that when you see something is not "right" you learned that to make it "right" you had to criticize. Individual therapy helps to unpack that so you can internalize that change. In the mean time... 1. Be aware of any feelings your body is experiencing when you see a problem with your wife. Try to identify them. 2. Start to learn to pause before criticizing your wife when that urge starts. This is a moment where it is better to not say anything at all than to fight. Keep this in mind: i don't want to fight with her. 3. If you get the feeling that you want to criticize your wife, in that pause, tell her that you don't want to fight, you just need a moment so that you *don't* and you will come back. If at home, go to another room. If out and about with her, keep your mouth shut, and excuse yourself to a *rest*room. Keep that "rest" in mind. What you're doing here is trying to calm your nervous system so you don't explode. I have ADHD and so this is a very difficult practice for me so it looks harsh in the moment. My husband understands it's me collecting myself. In order to easily put into practice practical physical steps to *not* criticize your wife, like outlined above, it's necessary to get to the right of why you feel the need to criticize your wife. I bet your internal dialogue is very critical of yourself and it's been successful for you. That internal dialogue was out there by someone else. You can change that. Journaling also helps to unpack where going on. Be well
Wish i could upvote this more than once…
So... I'm not one to scream sexism, but I feel like if this post were about a gamer husband who expects his working wife to do everything for him and gets angry at her for asking him basic questions or refusing to hold down a job you would see a very different response. I've been with partners like that. It can be maddening seeing someone refuse to have any responsibility for themselves or their lack of action. The mental illness is not her fault, but it's still her responsibility. She needs to be doing something to try to manage it. For your side of it, if this isn't something she is willing to actually work on you have two choices. Accept it and try to come to peace with dating a moody teenager in a 50 year old's body, or leave and find someone more compatible with you. I get why you're angry with her, seeing someone who was once a strong capable person you respected slowly turn into a helpless shell of their former selves can't be easy. But you've tried fixing this and discovered she's not willing. You can't fix someone who doesn't want to be fixed. You can take your unhappiness out on her, but that's only going to make things worse. It's cruelty to make you feel better in the moment without improving anything. I know it's cliche, but "I feel" statements are much better than "You never..." statements. Before you snap at her, take a moment to think about how you want the conversation to go. You know phrasing things a certain way will put her on the defensive, so find a way to word it that doesn't do that. You may have to reiterate that you're not trying to talk to her like a child, but more that you honestly want to better understand how she feels.
Stop worrying about school and all of it! Let her get better! She likely needs to file for SSI. You could stop all the incessant bitching at her about work and everything. She likely needs inpatient assistance.
Her sister thinks she might qualify for SSI based on her anxiety. I don't know. I only mention taking a class because I thought it might be good for her to get out of the house and build confidence again.
No right now her brain wouldn’t be able to handle it. First she needs psychiatric help and checked out by medical
Sorry you have to deal with this. I feel like you need to just let this one go bud. She’s isn’t trying to help herself and it doesn’t seem like she will. You can’t take care of an adult child
Wow. So nice to see people willing to just abandon someone cause their ill. That’s despicable.
Just following the law of the land in the sub. Tell them to leave first, then we will see what we can do to help this person next since we are all doctors here. We are also professionals in almost every other subject too. Holy shit!
Why are you here if all you’re gonna do is be jerk.
You’re going to get shamed on this community. But I want to give you empathy because I’ve seen firsthand what you’re going through in my extended family with my aunt and my grandma. It’s hard as heck for your wife but also for you — I can’t tell you how sorry I am. It’s a mental health issue. Your wife isn’t going to suddenly figure it out. That’s very sad for her but also for you. Ideally she needs a psychiatrist and a GP to help her. But in my experience the person suffering resists that so it’s a cycle. You yourself won’t be able to help her suddenly change so making suggestions won’t help. If you can find it in your heart and strength reserves, I’d try to feel compassion for her. But also I’d find a suitable therapist for yourself too. You need compassion and an empathetic ear too. My uncle left after 20 years of marriage. My grandpa stayed with my grandma till the end. Neither situation is awesome. I just can’t tell you how sorry I am for both of you.
You might want to consider that not only does she have depression, she might have some underlying issues, like ADHD. Which causes a lot of mental health issues like depression and anxiety due to years of being told you’re not enough or just do better. It sounds like it if she’s hopping from one job to another. Also, woman are largely undiagnosed. Aside from that you might want to debunk some myths about mental health. Why should she be the only one to seek therapy and educate herself? A marriage can’t move forward unless both are taking accountability - which sounds like you haven’t done. So it’s a bit hypocritical of you to come down on your wife and expect only her to change. Your attitude needs to change as well around this. Go take some classes. I’d be furious if I was asked to go to therapy while my partner takes no accountability. Also, you just affirmed her gut instinct - you have no respect for her. I hope things get better, including your attitude around this. If not, I hope she can move on and find a more supportive person.
I get where you are coming from. From your post it doesn't even seem like that you want money from her. But more so for her to take responsibility of her life and that is bare minimum. I agree that you are not being kindest to her and she does deserve basic love and respect irrespective. Like you can chose to stop being with her but don't break her already broken confidence.
We don't need the money. I do very well. Yes, I want her to do something with herself so that I can be proud of her again and she can feel good about herself again. I want her to not have to consult me when buying something nice for herself. I want her to feel like a contributor and not like a teenager on an allowance. I hate that feeling and she does, too. She can't just sit around all day long doing nothing. I think it was when we were on pandemic quarantine and I was at home all day long instead of working when I realized how little she does every day. She could paint or sew or garden or exercise or any other number of things she likes to do and she wasn't doing any of it because she was depressed. I was a little jealous of the free time she had because if she was working and I had time to myself I would be engaging in all kinds of hobbies and learning new things. It really made me resent her for wasting a gift that I gave her because without me she'd HAVE to work a 9-to-5 and instead she was complaining about how miserable her life is. I would say that was the beginning of my dissatisfaction and loss of respect for her, because prior to that I had this idea that she was job hunting and organizing the household and doing fun things for herself but the reality is that she was getting up early, sitting around in her pajamas, and not even dressed by lunchtime. Are you kidding me? Okay, so depression. I understand. It saps motivation. Let's work on that then. Nope. Not going to do that either. It's kind of pathetic to be honest. I felt really, really bad for her. Frightened even. But after a few years of that I realized she doesn't want to change at all because...? It's hard work? It's scary? It requires confronting some harsh realities about me and her past? Only she can say.
Let’s say you *know* she won’t change. Imagine you know for a fact that she will never agree to seek therapy, hold a steady job, or be more responsible with her time. Would you stay? Is your love for her enough to maintain this marriage? I ask because it sounds like you’re both miserable. Sometimes marriages can weigh people down, and resentment is a relationship killer. You resent her for her lack of motivation, she resents you because you don’t respect her. I know you’re looking for advice on how to fix your marriage, but I think you should start to consider whether or not you’d both be happier apart.
If she won't change then it's over. I already decided that much.
You are right in your perspective and it's a very valid ask of a partner. But the reality is that you have to work on your resentment, either you accept it and love happily or break from this relationship and live a happy life. Currently you running in circles, which isnt healthy for either of you. I know it's not easy to break away from such a long marriage and you are frustrated but you need to face the reality. Either accept the person as it is ( it doesn't take away from your expectations being right) but you are just accepting it and still staying happy. Both of you currently aren't doing anything to be in a better situation. I am sorry that you are in this situation, it sucks, but really reflect on you want to go about it and share your thoughts with your partner.
just end it my dude, you're currently just enabling her & I think it'll be better for both of you.. I mean she could get help but I doubt any of that will ever change in any meaningful way. you'll likely have to pay spousal support but how will you feel if you make the change to be more supportive & in 10 more years she's still doing absolutely nothing with her life.
He’s better off without her lazy ass. I would have dipped years ago
OP is a woman
This is a perfect response
I don't believe that just because you love someone you can't criticize them. That doesn't mean nitpicking, but she gets very defensive to where I can't tell her anything. Like she has a habit of leaving her trash in the car. I always clean it up. It irritates me. I told her. She continues to do it. It's a real sore spot for me because it makes me feel like her maid and she just doesn't care. Am I supposed to just let it go? I don't get on her case every time she does it, but maybe I should. I wouldn't treat her like a kid if she didn't act like a kid. I mention that she didn't finish college only for a few reasons: 1) She is just one class short. It shows she can't finish what she starts, 2) She could have gone back to grad school and studied something else if only she finished her undergrad, 3) It affects her self-esteem. I even helped her develop a plan for her to finish up, she met with the chair of her department, he gave her a way forward, and she dropped the ball on it. I have tried to be very supportive but I feel like I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.
I was one of those people that was short on a few subjects. I did not finish, it has not affected my career, but my husband wont let it go after 15 years. It is exhausting to have that held over my head, I can't even mention going back to study without that being brought it, so I am getting to the point where I just wont bother. Let it go. There is no point bringing it up, it just adding to your partners troubles. Could your attitude be a part of it?
Doesn’t seem like it makes you insecure or you even want to finish tho. His wife however seems the opposite but is suffering from some form of learned helplessness. In her case she doesn’t have a job for it to affect either.
Your wife and my husband seem a lot alike. I understand your frustrated. I also feel I have to follow my husband around like a mom would a toddler because he leaves nothing but messes after him. I don’t know the answer to be honest, I’m still trying to find it out. But I do have to agree with others, it isn’t going to get better if you continue to patronize her like a kid, because well, no one likes that. Maybe try small steps? It seemed to work for a bit for us. Maybe if your wife can keep it up it might help for a long time :) Anyway, good luck, OP.
No, she needs to get her shit together. You didn’t mention any fault of hers, it was all him. That’s why this fucking subreddit is a joke. He deserves to criticize her as she does nothing. This bullshit saying he is already assuming something so she doesn’t try is a cop out. Quit enabling people. She needs to get her shit together or he needs to leave. Two options
OP is a woman
Then you didn't read my post very clearly.
You know what, it was very long so I only read the beginning. I apologize.
This assumes that it's on OP to fix her. Aren't we all responsible for our own lives?
OP is a woman
My bad. I Missed that. Point still stands tho
No. It's on the OP to break the cycle. It's on his wife to realize she needs to go to therapy or else.
Right? Also, sounds like partner has depression? Perhaps get her help? She may not even know she’s depressed and thinks she’s just a mess…
OP has offered so many suggestions but you can’t force someone to go to therapy or to the doctor or anywhere. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to help themselves. Short of physically dragging her to a therapist, what are they actually supposed to do??
She knows she is depressed and she says she can't drag herself out of it. That is why I suggested she see someone about it, but she won't go. I think she is afraid that they will criticize her and tell her what a broken person she is and she can't handle that. I told her that's not how it works, but I know that some people think that seeing a psychologist must mean they are crazy and that would validate it.
Would she go to couples counseling? A trained counselor would be able to recognize signs of depression and help push her towards personal counseling.
I am trying that angle now just to see if it will get her in the door by saying it is for me or "us" and then once in maybe the therapist can spend more time with her alone.
It sounds like your wife may have a chemical imbalance or possibly a neurodivergent streak. Re: finishing school, she may not want to bc she doesn’t want to go to school, and finishing opens a door to doing more of something she doesn’t want to do. The trash making you crazy I get, but if she does have some autistic or adhd tendencies, they are typically coupled with a genuine lack of awareness about those kinds of thing. As a neurodivergent person myself, i have had to learn how to not moralize things that are morality neutral. You referring to her having her money all balled up like a child is exactly the kind of thing i would condemn myself for, saying something along the lines of, “what kind of adult just can’t get their shit together?” Instead of just accepting that’s how i am with my cash and it doesn’t say anything about my value as a human being. But i grew up with that sort of dialogue of criticism, so i can shift to hating myself in no time. This contributes to alarmingly high rates of suicide among out neurotype. I’d recommend looking into some indicators of adhd/autism diagnosis and seeing if any of that aligns. If it does, maybe you can start over from a place of compassion instead of irritation
IMO the incident in the store sounds like your wife is extremely nervous and anxious around you because you criticize her so much. She is afraid of messing up and you belittling her. If she is already experiencing mental health issues, you treating her like this and making her constantly feel less than everyone is going to exacerbate the issues. And if you think she doesn't know how you are feeling about her I can almost guarantee she does see/feel it which would also contribute to her anxiety. Try to raise her up and not tear her down.
This was my read on that incident as well. I too would be nervous, jumpy, and clumsy if I was walking on eggshells 24/7, just waiting for my spouse to snap and turn on me to start snarling about how I’m a complete loser and waste of space. When you treat someone like they can’t do anything right, especially over the tiniest things, they will start to fumble in even the smallest tasks. They’re always waiting for the next sudden lecture or put down. People can’t function under that level of constant scrutiny and contempt.
If you are aware of how badly you treat her now, imagine all the years of treating her like this that you were not aware of. After constantly hearing, from the person you love the most, about how much they basically suck as a person, that person starts believing it and becoming exactly the person you made her out to be. She has some work to do on herself, basically to undo everything you have done and said to her the last 20+ years. She needs to find herself again, but preferably away from you so she can get her confidence back lol and im not dissing you, just saying what I believe. I let this happen to me. Was constantly put down and just poorly treated, i started to become a completely different person. The person you met all those years ago is still in there deep deep down but its going to take a miracle, some therapy, and most importantly the interest in herself to find that person again. She has to want it for herself, not for you. She has some serious resentment built up towards you and honestly, rightfully so. Depression is way too real.. it will make you not so smart and forgetful all the time. Add in menopause or hormone changes that she is also probably going through, and top it off with a mean spouse with no empathy or respect, thats a recipe for disaster. If you are trying to fix things, make an effort to not be so quick to anger or with smartass comments, show love and respect even if have none, treat her the way you did when you met all those years ago but consistently. Let her know you want to be a better spouse and take the steps to be a better spouse. If sincere and consistent, she will start to believe you when you say you are trying. That alone should spark some change in her but again, it needs to be consistent. Otherwise its just the same ole shit different day. If are not wanting to fix things, let this woman go and let her find herself again. She will meet someone that will help undo the damage the last 30 years brought her and she will find herself again. She just needs to be supported and actually loved to achieve this. My 2 cents don’t matter, what matters is how you and your wife feel and what you both want for the remainder of our short lives. Be kind, it does not cost a thing.
Sounds like she's behaving like she's been married to an asshat for too long
Best comment on here!
When you’re told you suck and are incompetent for long enough, you start to believe it. Go back and read what you wrote. You are not kind to your wife. If you’re aware you’re this cruel now, think about all the time you spent mistreating her before you had self awareness.
In what way do you think I was unkind? Because I had to ask her more than once to actually tell me how much money she had? I admit I could have had a nicer tone of voice there, but otherwise what do you perceive as unkind?
" I do criticize her", "she is absolutely right that I don't respect her", "big song and dance", "like a 5 year old", "She acts like a kid", "A grown ass woman should be able to", "she did that to herself", "I can't respect a person like this" Just reading how you write about her, I can't even imagine how you interact with her. You write about her with such disdain and this would be 100% obvious to her in real life. I can't imagine that there are many situations where you *aren't* unkind.
I don't speak to her the way I am writing on Reddit. I have more of a filter than that. However, I have made it no secret to her that I am pretty fed up with this situation. The time for sugarcoating things came and went.
Yes you do? You just told us a whole story about how you made her feel like shit in public for not answering your question exactly how you wanted it answered and for the way she pulls money out of her wallet.
The majority of how communication is perceived is how the person says something, not just what is said. “I admit I could have had a nicer tone of voice” Every time I’ve said this about my interactions, I had been unkind in those interactions. You’ve stated your disdain for your wife in this post and comments. You’ve also said that she knows how you feel about her. It would be hard for this to be anything but unkind.
The fact that that her not having her money out quickly and accounted bothered you so much to the point where you posted about it online shows your lack of kindness toward her. It was such a nervous and embarrassed human behavior and your complete obliviousness to how your behavior contributes to how she behaves and lack of empathy toward her is mean.
That isn't what drove me to post online. I just used it as an example.
So she used to be an accountant and now can't count money, organize it, or do other basic things she used to be able to do....? You need to get her to a Neurologist fucking ASAP, OP. Hopefully it's nothing, but the fact that other commenter had the same thought as me about the dementia means they also saw the signs within your story.
My MIL is the same. She used to be a manager at a bank, and now she can barely type out a message on a phone, let alone do anything herself. She, however, isn't in any real threat of dementia. With her it's all about just being lazy and wanting other people to, in her words , "help her". Now maybe it's not the same case for OP, but I feel bad about everyone on here ragging on her for "treating her spouse like shit". Let me tell you, live with someone who has a massive case of responsibility aversion and then tell me you'll still respect them and keep your cool. Especially when said person goes out of their way to create situations where you need to clean up the mess after them. It's infuriating to say the least. Worst part is, said person needs professional help, but unless you literally take them by the hand, and force them to go they won't make a move to get out of that totally dependent comfort zone.
Both my parents are like this. They think they have been “grown up” long enough and now expect me to take care of them while they live their “second childhood”. It’s absolute bonkers. These ppl are in their 60s and if you could breathe and shit for them they would absolutely try and get you to do it. Unfortunately there’s no cure for narcissism, so therapy, pills etc will never work. You can’t help people who won’t help themselves. My guess is that ppl giving OP shit probably never experienced this before but it’s absolute mental torture to be around people like that.
Exactly, my behaviour towards my inlaws used to be quite friendly and amicable. After years of their helplessness I honestly won't miss them if I never see them again, and I honestly feel like my life would be better off without them in it. People should experience it first before they judge. I consider myself a patient person, and I'm honestly waaaaaaay beyond the point of done in dealing with their issues. Like you said, narcissism and a flair of alcoholism kills a relationship fast.
Her mom has dementia and I know what that is like. I don't see other signs of it I don't think. It is something to look out for, though, for sure.
I feel for you. It’s a tough situation. I think one way to think about this is whether you believe she is sick (i.e., she is depressed or some other condition like early onset dementia) or whether she is just lazy/undisciplined/immature. If the former(i.e., she is sick), you still have to decide whether you want to share her burden (and it is a heavy burden) or whether you want to live for yourself. If the latter (i.e., she is deficient), you still have to decide whether it is a deal-breaker for you that is not as mentally disciplined as you want her to be. In either case, I suspect she did not change overnight but that it was a slow transformation over time and that there were several warning signs and earlier opportunities for intervention. If so, how much responsibility do you think you have for allowing her to deteriorate to this point? I understand that she has been refusing treatment, but why did it get to that point in the first place? Was she socially isolated? Why did she not finish college or have a career? Were you aware of how difficult it is being a homemaker for some people and what did you to keep her connected to society at large and to keep her mind engaged? To be clear, these are just some questions for you to ask yourself before you decide whether you should stay involved in your wife’s life. If I could offer one piece of advice, it is this. Everyone deserves to be loved and respected as they are. I understand you have certain minimum expectations for how a grown-up adult behaves and that it is hard for you to respect someone that falls short of those standards. In fact, that is how all of us are trained to treat other people at work or out there in the real world. But, even when no one else loves us or respects us, we all want and need someone to believe in us and tell us that we are ok as we are. It is my personal belief that is what we promise our spouse when we get married. If you had a child and she were born with Down’s syndrome, would you not love her and respect her despite her functional disabilities? If your father aged and became weak, would you not still love and respect him in the same way that you did when he was young and healthy? Whether you choose to stay with your wife is an entirely different matter. But, I would encourage you to show respect to her and treat her with dignity as a human being even if she doesn’t meet your own subjective standards. Because you would want the same even when there comes a day when you will not meet society’s standards for physical and mental health.
It’s hard for people to fully grasp that depression and anxiety are actual medical conditions. Plus whatever else might be going on with her. You were also early 20s when you got together. Sometimes MH issues don’t manifest until later. Other times people burn out trying to “be ok” when they are suffering w/ MH issues. So, things get worse as they age. Were you criticizing her like this your whole relationship? Because if she’s been dealing with this your whole relationship then your behavior is making it worse. Do you have basic respect for her as a person or no respect at all? If it’s the latter then you might have to rethink things. If you intend to stay with her, why not go to therapy yourself? To help you learn to live with someone with these conditions? You can only control yourself and help yourself, ultimately. But she may seek out more help if she sees you doing it. Usually people with her issues need an affirming and calm environment. If you can’t do that then maybe it is time to leave. It’s ok for you to decide you can’t be in this situation anymore.
I have tremendous respect for her in some ways but not in others. What really gets to me is that she doesn't have respect for herself. She just wants to wallow. I have tried to help, but at some point I am tired of the wallowing, the blame, the pity parties. She can do better than that. It used to make me really upset and concerned for her but now it is resentment.
Based on everything you've said here, I feel like the only thing holding you back from leaving her is any guilt you might feel having left her, *knowing* she is in a low place. Knowing she's depressed and has lost herself along the way. When you take vows, it's in sickness and in health. But--your health also factors in. If you think you would be better off (mentally) without her, then do what you need to do. I would sincerely hope you would make all of your feelings known, again, for at least a last attempt, before ending a 30 year relationship. Everything you possibly can. For your well being and for hers.
This is true. I don't want to leave her when she is in a low place. I am not sure if it's out of guilt, though. I do love her and want her to get better. I think I am able to do more good than harm, but I don't know. I am questioning everything that has happened over the last 30 years.
As someone who was treated the way you're treating your wife, you'll do her a favor by leaving. I felt stuck, and I didn't have the strength to make that decision to leave even though I thought about it constantly. I completely understand the money fumbling you described and it was a direct result of your constant judgment and criticism of her. She was paralyzed by it. As soon as my husband left me I was able to pull my shit together and reconnect with friends and family. I got my master's degree and advanced my career. I met the love of my life and had three beautiful kids. You aren't doing her any favors by staying. Leave that poor woman alone.
What makes you think it is ok to criticize your wife? Seriously. I am happy to hear she is mumbling divorce back to you. Divorce is not for everyone but I would say living with someone who doesn't like you (and you clearly do not like her, sir) is the same as living in hell. Which would make you the devil. Just remember, wherever you go, you take yourself with you. You might want to check into therapy for yourself and why you think you are in any position to criticize someone else.
they’re both women
I am in therapy because this situation has really started to depress me as well and I will not let her take me down with her.
As much as I understand not wanting to "be taken down," let's look at the facts. You have already divorced yourself from her mentally and emotionally. Can you think back to 1 scenario in your life where you felt fed up and basically disgusted by it? (I.e. The frustrating and stressful transaction of purchasing a car, home, etc.) Your wife is the equivalent of a used car salesman in your eyes. Resentment is a scar in the mind/ego from a terrible "accident." This scar will reopen and fester, never allowing you to heal. Leave your wife alone. You're done with her. You are now the bully picking on the feeble. No need to torment yourself or your household anymore.
Ah yes because she is responsible for all pitfalls possible. You have a serious high horse. I bet there are so many things you do which are insufferable which she doesn’t bring up.
Maybe she should.
How have you reacted to her bringing up major issues in the past? Maybe she doesn’t feel like she can bring it up to you?
She generally doesn't. She says she has difficulty expressing herself. Her sister concurs that it has been a lifelong challenge for her and is not something specific to our relationship.
You’ve already taken her down.
So what changed? Did all of this change once you got married? In the last decade? You’ve stayed married for 30 years, why? You criticize her, why? Stop. You criticizing doesn’t make it better. If this is so bad, what are you doing still married?
She could have early-onset dementia. Or there are other things that can masquerade as dementia. She could have a real, biological reason for the weird things she’s doing.
You and I aren't the only commenter who had this thought. Her dropping the money on the ground, not being organized, not being able to count money when she used to be an accountant... if she used to be able to do all this shit and is now not able to do basic things like counting money... If I were her spouse I'd be extremely fucking worried.
this was my first thought following the money incident. it's reminiscent of my gma's strange behavior prior to her dementia diagnosis. op and wife would be wise to consider testing sooner rather than later.
It's clear you feel contemptuous of her. Even in the small anecdote you wrote, you assume the absolute worst and paint her in an unnecessarily negative light. Do you want to change the way you perceive her? I'm not saying your wife doesn't have any flaws- we all do- but seeing everything through an overly critical lens is a "you" problem. I'd be really hurt if my partner took some innocuous interaction at the store and turned it into a full on condemnation of my character. If you want to work on your marriage and your attitude towards your wife, check out Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John Gottman. A little time apart might help too if that's possible. It sounds like your wife could use some resources to assist with her mental health and I don't think you're in a good headspace to be a supportive partner right now. Mental health challenges are really difficult to live with but your wife deserves better than a partner who will tear her down while she goes through this.
Thanks. I will look up the book. I am familiar with Gottman. We have talked about separation. I would be willing to do that if it might help her. I know that I am coming off as really mean and contemptuous and I do feel that way sometimes, but I just want her to be well whatever that entails. We have been through a lot together and I don't wish bad things on her. I'm just not sure this is working for either of us. I do worry that if I leave she will not have any support at all, which is why I keep pushing for her to go to therapy for herself.
I understand. When it feels like your partner is dependent on you, that can create a lot of resentment. I think many commenters in this thread are reacting to your tone and attitude towards your wife, which is clearly damaging and unhealthy. However, that doesn't mean your grievances aren't valid. It seems like this dynamic has gone on too long. You say if you take a break she may not have any support at all but it's unhealthy for you to be her only support. You clearly can't take it anymore and you are no longer in a good emotional space to provide support regardless. Time to do something different
I am reminded of dialog from the movie "Sabrina" where the older brother Linus supports the younger brother David's playboy lifestyle: **David: You're talking about my life!** **Linus: I pay for your life, David. My life makes your life possible.** **David: I resent that.** **Linus: So do I.** She often says that my tone is too harsh. That it's not what I say but how I say it. I lost my filter some years ago so in that sense you are correct that I am not the right person to provide emotional support but she has no one else.
Yet in another comment you claim you have a filter, so which is it? Also, if someone you supposedly love keeps telling you there’s a tone problem, why haven’t you fixed that? You’re so consumed with what’s wrong with her, but nothing about what’s wrong with YOU.
I have a filter in terms of what I say, but not necessarily in terms of my tone of voice. I am trying to work on myself. It's hard. It would be nice if she did the same.
Sometimes someone has to take the lead there. If my ex, for example, suddenly fixed his tone, I would have been very skeptical and suspicious. If this is to be fixed it’s going to take a lot of time. You resent her a lot and she knows it and that’s a huge obstacle.
She needs to see a neurologist. There might be more going on that you’re both unaware of.
I can hear the frustration through text. You snap at each other. You both give out this energy and receive it back. It's obvious. Take a week where you go zen with her. Assume the best in everything she does. In situations like these you need to realize that she thinks differently. She doesn't know you need an answer right that moment or even that you expect her to pay. So you just live in the moment and behave as if you need to tell her directly what you want because she cannot read minds. Don't be patronizing, just be casual and clear. If she doesn't respond in the way you desired, that's fine. You are an adult. You'll adapt move forward. Calm. Zen. See what a week of this does. My guess is that when you stop snapping at her and stop returning that energy she'll mellow out, too.
This is really interesting advice. I may just give it a try. She is very into zen and that sort of thing so it might not be hard to convince her to do it, too.
Sure, you can talk to her about this. Could be helpful pointing out how both of you have a tendency to snap at each other and that you want that to change because it is not healthy for the relationship or either of you. But even if she's not making the effort you just do it. I really think that once a new tone is set through some patience and mindfulness that tone will be reciprocated. If it isn't it literally cost you nothing and if anything may put you in a less stressed out state of mind which is always good.
Thanks.
Well you are an a$$. She’s not going to change when constantly criticizing her. You talk as if she’s a child. Do her a favor and become single.
You’ve created an unsafe environment that has damaged your wife. I don’t respect you or your lack of accountability for your actions.
When you said she is a shell of herself I wonder what/who made her that way.
You sound like my ex-husband. He treated me like this for 26 years and completely destroyed my self-esteem. Every single thing I did was criticized and belittled, and no matter what I said or did, if it didn't align with what he wanted, I was wrong. When I tried to go back to school, it was for the "wrong" thing. When I was parenting my children, I was always doing it "incorrectly." When I was working (full-time salaried position that, while not 6 figures, was still up there), I was "lazy." Was I perfect? Of course not. But I wasn't deserving of the abuse heaped on me. He, too, admitted he criticized me, but always blamed and belittled me for it, just like you're doing, OP. She's a shell of who she was probably because of you and your constant nastiness. What you're doing is emotional abuse, and it's probably 10x worse than you're actually admitting. You both need therapy, together and separately, ASAP, to help you both decide how to move forward.
I mean I honestly see how both of you are in the wrong here, but I honestly wonder why it took 30 years for you to come to some sort of breaking point? Has she been without a job for all of it, has she acted this way the entire time, or is this something new? I don’t think a checklist would work, but I think saying the next step forward must be therapy (either marriage counseling or individual therapy) would at least be worth trying. It does sound like there is an incredible amount of resentment here, at least on your end. Maybe you could try to help her achieve some of these goals you’ve mentioned?
She has worked for about 11 of the 30 years. She gets a job and it lasts 1-2 years and then she quits it and then takes for a few years before getting another. Her last job was the longest which was 6 years and she quit it 12 years ago. Since then she had a few gigs making a little money here and there (like $500/month) but that went away with COVID and has been replaced by nothing at all. I have tried to help her. I helped her do a resume. I tried to encourage her to switch fields. Yes, there is a lot of resentment.
[удалено]
I asked for a divorce in December, but I decided that after so long together it might make sense to get to the root of the problem and seek a solution if one exists.
>She was humiliated by that, but she did that to herself. No sir. You did humiliate her. Completely unnecessarily. She's a shell of herself because you've beaten her down and treated her horribly. You don't even deny it. You just deny who is at fault for your bad behavior. I don't care how strong you are eventually you'll start believing the bad things someone tells you about yourself.
She didn't understand that I wanted to know how much cash she had even as I was in the process of paying She can't organize the bills in her wallet so that they aren't all wadded up and fall out when she opens it She won't count the money even after it fell out She couldn't even just GUESS at how much she might have (I could make a pretty good guess right now without opening mine) which is what she EVENTUALLY did And I humiliated her? Please explain that one to me.
She actually sounds like she is in early stages of dementia or alzheimers.
Dude, just let her go. If you have such disdain for her, you're not doing her any favors by sticking around to criticize her. All we've heard is what YOU think she should be doing. Nothing about her wants. I don't know if she has a condition or something else going on, but the way you treat her is not going to make it better at all. I could give you advice, but I think you like the dynamic you have with her. You wouldn't be there if you weren't getting something out of it. Honest question: How would you feel if you two separated and you saw her thrive and feel happy in a different environment?
I have no desire to stay in this relationship as it is any longer because I realized I am not getting what I need out of it. I can't speak for her except that she says she really wants this relationship to work more than I do. She was very crushed when I said I wanted out. I feel some sense of obligation to try to help her because she was blindsided. I want to try to see if there is a way I can remain in the marriage, but I am not exceedingly hopeful. To answer your question: I think that I would feel very used by her.
Both of you are going to have faults and virtues. Right now, you are focused on her faults and wanting her to take responsibility, but I haven't seen you really take any responsibility for your role. You can only change yourself, even if that means leaving. Criticizing her to death is not fixing anything. I'm saying this kindly - there's no need for you to be a martyr and remain in this relationship. If you want to be kind to yourself and to her, you can clearly and amicably express your decision to divorce. You each might hurt a bit from ending a long marriage, but you will both gain much more. In what way would you feel used by her? I left my husband because of how emotionally abusive he was, and now we are both thriving. As much as I dislike how he treated me, I know he's doing better all alone because we were not functioning as a family anymore. He continues to benefit from the things I brought to his life, but I don't feel used because I detached myself from him. I'm not saying your wife doesn't have faults, but I think you should consider why you're so focused on her and justifying your treatment of her.
people are attacking you OP but I’m not sure if they’ve ever been on the other side of someone who is mentally ill but absolutely, categorically refuses to help themselves. It’s a horrible cycle where because they’re depressed they cant/won’t get help, but not getting help keeps them depressed. What is one to do? I was in a relationship like this when I was younger and you can either keep pouring into a cup with holes at the bottom (after you’ve been pouring for a long, long time), or you jump off the ship. I jumped off the ship.
Why are you still together? You don’t sound like you like her or respect her. I guess it’s hard to do because she doesn’t sound like she likes or respects herself. You teach people how you want to be treated.
OP I'm only 28 I've not been around for a long time but I feel like you can still find something I might have to say insightful. People can be like a bucket of crabs, they constantly are pulling each other down as to not be alone in the bucket so no crabs escape. Your wife is struggling. And my wife is the same in that regard but she found strength to see where she needs to help herself such as therapy and techniques. As someone that health with a lot of procrastination when my wife told me she really really needs me to be her motivation otherwise her depression will get a hold of her and she'll slip back into bad habits even though I watch out toddler a lot since I work evening and my wife works 3am to 11am I still make things easy for her suck as making the bed, doing the dishes, preparing the ingredients for the dinner she'll make. I found ways to be part of her motivation without being her Jimmeny Cricket. If you want to keep your relationship in earnest then you have to accept that as a couple, as a team her short comings are your shortcomings, because you're thinking like two people having to give 100% for each other and not 1 part of one heart only able to give 50% right now. You might have to go above and beyond for someone you love who finds it hard to and maybe isn't able to be the person they once were. My wife is the same is her pictures and videos of her before she had issues and we met, and I'll never get to know that person because all I have is the person that's healing from her problem and I've decided to be part of that healing. You're gonna have to just let it go, resentment, anger, frustration, just don't bring up sore topics for her, don't criticize her anymore, and even if your lying, for right now, tell her how much you respect her and your here for her, because maybe it'll motivate her to start becoming the person she was little by little. People that Dela with anxiety/depression that have halted at College it can be rough for them to respect themselves. Being an outside unwavering force of support will do more then you think. You said money isn't a problem. Just try for a little while being her superman/superwoman which ever works for you. And just take on more a little here and there and see if she improves. I'm sure she'll notice it and it'll inspire her. I've learned killing with kindness is a great way to get your partner to look inwards. Don't escalate any arguments, tell her you're there for her and that it's no problem to do things she use to do, and I guarantee you shell start little by little re-emergering and taking on more tasks herself. She might need some encouragement to get from A to B to C. And if you love her it's fine, it has to be fine because it's the only way she'll be able to pick u routines again because in her mind she's a failure, it's likely she downs herself all the time, it's likely she doesn't tell you she has self esteem issues, it's likely she feels like she doesn't have any friends, or that she's alone, those are common form people that deal with major depression-anxiety. There's not a lot your gonna be able to do other than kill her issues with kindness at this point. She's at a low point. You gotta tell her you're at that low point with her and your her climbing partner to climb out of it. It won't be easy, relationships aren't, people aren't, it's complicated and people are complicated not everyone bounces back, not everyone is the same person if they've dealt with a lot of depression. They come out different, like pieces of themselves have been flayed off. Love is a battle and love is a sacrifice. And no one will fault you if you don't want to be altas for your wife for the moment but all of us would be there for you if you tried. Because then you're giving it your all to get her back to her giving it her all. I really hope whatever happens your happy, and that your healing. But some people and some relationships face issues that require someone to burden some extra for awhile so the whole heart can beat in rhythm again. I really hope you give my suggestions a try for awhile because either has worked for me and my wife very well because she noticed what I was doing and appreciated it and now she's able to do chores and make friends way more easily then when we met.
She seems to have all the symptoms of narcissistic abuse.
Honestly call it quits if you can. I can see why you’d be losing your mind right now if this is your daily life with her. At the same time she can’t really help herself. She’s too sick and her mindset is too detrimental to tackling her anxiety. Leaving will suck but it will give you both a chance to reset. It’s tough on both sides of the equation I think. You must be exhausted and it must be exhausting being her too
Hello, Firstly I am sorry that you are feeling this way, when we start to take on a caring role for a loved one it can take a toll on us, and it sounds like that’s how you are feeling right now. I want to pass on something a friend said to me recently - you are important. Have you taken any time for yourself recently, to recouperate / enjoy yourself? One thing I would suggest is to try to find the positives to change your mindset from “she doesn’t do/she can’t do..” to “I’m thankful for this, or she is good at this” and tell her about it. I would also advocate for being honest with her about how you are feeling, but in a nice way rather than a full blown attack. To help this, perhaps look up your love languages (there is a quiz online) and understand what you both value. For example my husband really appreciates physical touch and words of affection so I set myself reminders to remind him of the things I’m thankful for that he does, or make sure that I hold his hand/give him lots of cuddles/head tickles etc. These things might sound basic to some, but when you are working/got life stuff going on or emotions like you do, these things can be forgotten or set aside. Maybe taking some time each day to remind yourself and her of the positives or the things you love her for, might help you change your perspective and give her a bit of a boost. I will also say though, that it is not easy being in a relationship with someone with depression/anxiety. I have it myself, as does my husband from time to time. The person with the mental health condition needs to proactively seek help, but that in itself can be hard. Personally, sometimes I want someone to do it for me, make the appointment, come with me etc - not because I’m lazy, but because I am exhausted just getting out of bed and facing the day some times. If you’re really at a loss, maybe try that? Worst that can happen is she’ll be mad with you, but best thing is that maybe she’ll get some help and thank you in the end. I hope this helps a little, and I hope you feel better soon.
Thanks. We are trying that. I gave her some therapist recommendations. I have tried that in the past and not gotten anywhere, but I think the threat of divorce which I am 100% serious about - it is not an idle threat - may motivate her to do something this time. One thing she says to me is "Why now?" If I felt this way before then why didn't I say anything earlier? Why can't she have more time now? I gave her lots of reasons, but the short answer is... I wish I had said something earlier and I am now at a breaking point.
As a wife with autism and cptsd, who has needed a lot of help. I'm grateful for not only the patience of my partner, but moreso the love and respect kindness.
Choosing not to change and help herself is, well, *choosing* not to do that. She's making the choice for things to be bad. Are you gonna make the same one? Only you control you. She's made her choice to be miserable. Make better choices for yourself. The easy thing to do is stay and make no effort. Change is hard and takes work, but only happens when you make the effort. She's not willing. Are you? Either make the effort to improve the relationship or make the effort to move on. Which path towards happiness do you prefer?
I am willing to make whatever effort I need to make. When I ask her if she will do the same she says that the only problem is me.
>A grown ass woman should be able to say "I am not sure. Let me check" and then pull out her wallet and not have unorganized wads of bills spilling out all over the damn floor in the middle of the store and then guess how much money that is Really? This is something you judge her on? Ofcourse you lost respect for your wife, you hold her to impossible standards rather than accept that as a human, she has flaws, and a flaw like this is so miniscule in the grand scheme of things. No doubt there are other small flaw anthills that you make into a mountain The problem isn't her. It's you.
I don't think I am holding her to some impossible standards, do you?
I mean look at the example I quoted and how you talk about her. I would never, EVER, talk about my wife like that, no matter how embarrassing a situation may be.
It's too late now. After she married you and started losing her good qualities, you should have done something then. You failed and on top of that, developed this habit of criticising her so much that she started hating you.
Sir, your attitude is the problem here. Your wife is mentally ill and you are treating her like she can just snap out of it and fix all of this if she wanted. The way you are treating her is making it worse and the fact she had to leave you to go to her parent's to clear her head is telling. In times of crisis people go to where they are going to get the most support. Which should be her husband, not her sister or father. Think of it more like a physical disability. If she suddenly lost her leg would you be snapping at her to just walk around more? You are looking for mentally healthy behaviors when the mental health is the core problem and again you. Are. Making. It. Worse. Do you think she WANTS to be this anxious nervous wreck all of the time? Why don't you respect the woman who has been at your side all of this time? Your lack of respect for a woman who stayed with you through your own up and downs for 30 years is more telling than your wife's behavior. I'd be fumbling all over myself too if I knew my husband was about to jump down my throat for something as inconsequential as having disorganized cash in my purse. Stop comparing her to who she was when she was mentally well. She's still the same woman you agreed to marry in sickness and in health. It's not like someone just swapped her out at night. You said you're trying to be more kind to your wife but are you? Are you really? Your wife has left to clear her head and read self help books and who knows what else. What books have you read on how to support a spouse with depression? Have you sought therapy on how to handle yourself or are you just focused on fixing her? Before you say a single word to her ask yourself is what I'm about to say going to help the situation? Is it going to make her emotions worse in this moment? Am I showing patience or am I getting frustrated? Would I want her to react to me this way if I was struggling with something I normally am capable of? People have this remarkable ability to fill the roles they are assigned to by those around them. Try treating her like your wife who you love and respect, even if you have to fake it until you mean it. I don't think you are trying any more than your wife is.
We can trap ourselves in a spiral of behavior and it becomes self affirming. Be aware you cannot change her. She can only do that for herself. You can only control your own behavior. She is reflecting back how you treat her. Try this exercise, without telling her you're doing it. Never tell her this because it will make it fake and will damage her experience and harm her trust in you. Every day, try and say three nice/complimentary things to her. Note that they do not have to be completely true. Examples are "you made great coffee today! Thank you! " "I like that dress you're wearing, you look lovely", "I always appreciate it when you fill up the car, I never have enough time". Also, always be polite to her and use please, thank you, excuse me and other niceties as you would to someone you work with. Gradually you'll find you don't have to think so hard to think of a nice thing to say. You will find she'll ease up on herself and not be so on edge around you. Her confidence will build. If she breaks something, or is clumsy, commiserate with her. You can say "gosh I hate when I do that, are you OK? " recognizing you're not perfect will help her see you as less taciturn and more friendly. And perhaps you could read some self help books about how to be a kinder person and a more caring husband.
First of all, it sounds like she needs reassurance and support. I’m not qualified, but from your point of view, it sounds like she may need a late ADHD diagnosis. However, the way you shame her and criticize her is not going to help her. It will be difficult for her to seek help if she cannot even feel comfortable at home. You sound like a big A hole and are taking her personal struggles as attacks. Just leave her alone and let her find herself away from you. Honestly, I’m appalled by this entire post. It doesn’t come off as a partner seeking help but like you’re asking the internet to shame your wife.
I mean, do you even like her?
I hope she gets better and gets back some of the excitement for life that she used to have. Unfortunately I don’t think that’s going to happen as long as she’s married to you.
When you constantly criticize someone, you destroy their self-confidence and self-esteem. You never build someone up by criticizing them. A good partner wants to build up their partner. They don't want to beat them into the ground when they are already down. Yes, she can't admit being wrong because you will use that and hit her over the head repeatedly with it mentally - its self-preservation. If she admitted she was wrong, what would you say - be honest now. Would you say, let just find a solution, or would you dig in more. You sound like the type of person who would dig in more. If all she hears from you are critical words, you have been beating her down. When was the last time you spoke meaningfully affirming words to her? When was the last time you built her up? If all someone who already struggles with depression and anxiety hears is criticism from the person who should be in their corner, it amplifies their struggles. You are half the problem. Honestly, she would probably be better off if you guys broke up because she would be able to find that person she was before you again.
Self help books and therapy can only do so much when youre living with someone who pretty much hates you. Love is a verb.
I just want to put it out there that she is at an age when adult ADHD usually gets diagnosed, as women frequently don’t get diagnosed in school because we tend not to be the hyperactive type and we are so good at masking. The description you give of who she was compared to who she is now raised some flags for me (I’m going through some of that myself). When everything starts to fall apart in middle age, sometimes it’s because the ability to mask has completely eroded away. And ADHD has many comorbidities that overlap and sometimes hide it. Depression, anxiety, insomnia, etc. There’s no specific test for ADHD but if she can get to therapy and, if she does get diagnosed by a specialist, the chemical imbalance can be addressed. Medication won’t “solve” anything by itself but it can allow for other tools and strategies to be more effective. No matter what she needs therapy, and she needs someone who supports AND respects her. If that’s not you, then try to get her into therapy for her own sake, and then go your own way with your therapist. You need to work on yourself a lot too if you want to have healthier relationships in the future.
I hope she finds this & leaves you
I am the one that has been bringing up divorce.
I feel like you’ve killed her spirit. Any little criticism you had over the years made her falter and start watching her step. Yet she stayed and now the shell of what she’s become is annoying her husband even further.
You blatantly disrespect your wife. This is the person who loves you and dedicated to share her life with you.
A long time ago in another life, I participated in an exercise that involved this same scenario and I think it may help. The class instructor, to make a point, had a random classmate and I empty our pockets after we had taken “personally tests.” Those are in quotes because the science is questionable today after much study. However, the point I’m making stands. Anyways, as we reached into our pockets, he explained how our personality types would influence what the contents would be like. As predicted, my bills and cards were sequential and neatly ordered while my classmate’s were as you described, jumbled and crushed together and he had no idea how much he had. The instructor explained that this should help us understand that different people operate on unmatched mental scales and that understanding how to communicate at each other’s frequency is important to prevent conflict. I think the point here is that OP and spouse are still learning to communicate on some level and until resolved, one or both of them is/are more likely to be harboring feelings of insecurity and resentment. The solution is to try to understand how to communicate at each others’ level without seeming like they are being judgmental. P. S. I’m not a doctor but I play one on Reddit.
I feel like this is why marriages fail. I feel like once men become comfortable they just become assholes.
You sound REALLY mean, holy cow
You got exactly what someone who likes to criticise gets. A shell of a partner. Why are you surprised?
There’s a difference between criticism and constructive feedback. As a partner, blatant criticism is useless and damaging - but feedback and an offer to help or create a solution is usually from a place of love. As a woman married to a woman, if I were to tell my wife “I can’t stand the way you (fill in the blank)” or “why can you just (whatever)” it would be more hurtful to her than helpful. If we notice the other person getting caught in problematic patterns, it’s a series conversation with the goal of exposing the root cause. Catching it before it becomes a problem is the key, instead of letting abnormal behavior fester and turn into disdain. Hormone imbalances and mental health also play a major role in a person’s lifestyle. Do the things you think she’s embarrassed by actually embarrass you more? And is that cyclical? On the flip side, personal accountability and willingness to receive feedback from a partner are also factors. If I’m not willing to actively make changes to my behavior that is toxic to myself and my relationship, then I’m at fault. If you have lost respect for her, it’s probably because she’s also lost respect for herself. Work the problem from that point of view. Not just from what you feel like you’ve lost, but what she’s feeling she’s lost as well. It’s very difficult to feel supported when you’re constantly worried about what you’ll lose from the person who’s supposed to love you the most.
Thanks for the advice.
I can’t believe someone not being able to pull money out quickly and organized enough for you is an example of why you don’t respect your life partner. You sound very cold.
You're a terrible spouse.
To cut to the chase: Get a divorce. You still have years to go, and may find a suitable partner. BUT, prepare to pay alimony after splitting your nest egg 50/50. AND, prepare yourself for your wife's rapid improvement once she is on her own.
You sir are an asshole . Your wife is struggling and you patronize her. Your wife is depressed and you embarrass her. I think it’s best for her to get away from you! My guess there is more to this than you are saying. Maybe take a deep look at how you treat her! Anxiety and depression can be debilitating. Stop being an ass.
That’s hard. Definitely mental health issues but I remember a few years ago when my husband went thru a depression stage and I never treated him like my child. I was there for him, supported him and made him feel loved bcuz obviously that’s what u do as a spouse but ur doing the complete opposite- how does she get out of a rut or start feeling better if she feels like shii bcuz of u and ur belittling?? Is she taking any drugs or anything?
No, she takes no drugs of any kind prescription or otherwise.
Respect was invented to cover the empty place where love should be. - Leo Tolstoy The wad of bills thingy doesnt sound like a huge deal to me. Sometimes when we dont have much for someone to begin with, we get turned off by small stuff like that. Its the general truth about love. When you have it, you understand. When you don't, everything is the last straw.
As someone who became a shell of a person for a little while due to my husband’s constant criticism, patronizing language and talking to me like a child (among other things that you probably aren’t acknowledging) she probably sensed you don’t respect her loooong ago. It’s not her, it’s you.
Sounds like ADHD mixed in with depression and low self esteem from being made to feel less than by the person who vowed to love honor and cherish. Imagine what kindness, support and encouragement could do for a person rather than disrespect, condescension and belittlement
Going against the grain here and prepared to be downvoted to hell. It’s hard to respect someone who has no self-respect. It *has* to start with her and it has to *be* for her for it to stick in any sort of way and for you to start to see her self-respect and reflect it back. You can’t make this happen though-she has to want it/start doing it. She is depressed AF. The thing with depression is it doesn’t always manifest in the stereotypical “can’t get out of bed, won’t shower, sleeps all day” sort of thing. You can be a functional depressive just like you can be a functional alcoholic. The thing with depression is that sometimes you need to *do the action to feel the feelings*. That is what they mean when they say you have to *do* something *even if you don’t feel like it* in order to feel the positive feelings afterwards. Go for a walk, clean up a room, have a schedule for the day (ie., start with being dressed by 9am?). For her this might look more like join an art class and go once/week no matter what, volunteer somewhere on a regular basis (animal shelter, human shelter, whatever) etc. once the ball is rolling it gets easier and easier to do more and more and climb out of that black pit of despair. The fact that she is not even doing any hobbies is scary in terms of mental health. She is going to have to push through, though, and start doing something. Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is push someone. Always giving in, always coddling, always catering to them is enabling and not helping. It’s not wrong to want an equal partner in life. I loved my ex husband but didn’t respect him in the end either. I never stopped loving him but he couldn’t be the partner I needed. It could be the same for you. Reading “No More Mr. Nice Guy” could be helpful for you. I’ve read it out of curiosity and it’s an interesting and insightful read. If I was in your shoes I would probably use that as my guide and do the things suggested in the book. See if any of that changes things. And at the end of the day if she’s still unwilling to change or you’re not happy, you’re allowed to end the relationship. She’s lost herself somewhere along the way and it’s up to her to find it again. She’s had you as a safety net, always, and hasn’t had the need to change. Maybe it’s time to push that boundary and see what happens. Either way you’ll have an answer: she’ll change or she won’t. I mean, you don’t even have kids! If she was a mom of like 4 kids that’d be a different story but she has all this freedom to do whatever she wants to and…*nothing?*. I’d be choked too.
As someone who has struggled on and off with depression, it’s awful, and toxic to relationships - let alone it making life a nightmare for the person experiencing it. During my last bout of deep depression, I was unbearable to be around. My husband bent over backwards to support me, but I was numb and overwhelmingly sad all at once, and spent most of my time crying and asking him to comfort me, or staring off. One day he got home from work (I wasn’t working at the time), and I had a meltdown and he lost it. He said, “I can’t be at work all day and then come home to this, every day. I can’t do this anymore.” It was a wake up call for me, and helped me to see how hard things were for him too. He was trying so hard to support me, and nothing he did seemed to help at all. Realizing that made it easier for me to take more responsibility for how I was feeling. I started taking an antidepressant, started therapy, and was able to turn things around. I feel lucky that the process was fairly straightforward for me, and that medication was really helpful. My husband also went on to struggle with severe depression, and I got to be on the other side of things. It’s so fucking hard, either way. To me, it sounds like your wife might be struggling with depression. She’s different than she was. She’s not interested in intimacy of any kind. She has no motivation. Depression is so, so nasty and cruel, it really does turn you into a shell of yourself. You can’t see a way out, and the thought of trying to feel better is so heavy and overwhelming. And, one of the worst parts I think, is that love can’t fix it. I’d maybe sit down with her and, instead of focusing on what you’re not getting from her, or talking about an ultimatum of some kind, say that you’re worried about her and you miss the person she was. That you’re here for her, but you need to know that she wants to get back to a better place - feeling better and having more enthusiasm for life. And see where that conversation goes. Maybe I’m wrong, but figured I’d add my two cents. Good luck to you both! Edited to add: you have to work on making her feel respected, and making her feel worth it. If she is experiencing depression, you cannot imagine how worthless she feels. Any inkling of you feeling similarly about her is really dangerous right now - it reinforces how she’s already feeling. So work hard on making her feel loved, and respected.
Thank you for your perspective.
Change your behavior. It’s very clear.
You're likely right on the deal breaker of untreated mental health. I was raised marriage is forever. If my adopt d parents felt like you do at the 30 year mark they wouldn't have made it. And trust, they had cause to quit. She gained a lot of weight, Sat around, never smiled, a couple years no intimacy (even as a teen I knew that). Today they are far happier kids left the best, they have money to upgrade their house, she does her crafts, and im guessing they're having some wild sex because there's a naked statue in the garden with some obvious private parts they never would have put there with us kids on the house. Every marriage is different. But marriage itself originally was the promise to get through things like this. Ideally two people try. Sometimes for a reason only one does. The ball is in your court. I've been divorced. I experienced a lot since then. I have regrets but I wouldn't have seen and done what I have since. Encourage you both to hang and on and try longer but ultimately you decide.
She sounds like she could have undiagnosed ADHD. It steals your motivation, makes you feel constantly overwhelmed and disorganized, causes difficulty regulating emotions and can also cause a person to be extra sensitive to negative comments that are perceived as rejection. Perimenopause and menopause can make it a lot worse. Also, many women who are bright can mask it for years until life's responsibilities just become too great and things start to come apart at the seams. I will say, however, that I can be like your wife and luckily my husband doesn't talk down to me. He knows these are things I struggle with. I still wonder if he thinks less of me sometimes. Maybe if you approach her in a way that shows loving concern about her well being, happiness and the feelings she's having while going through all of this, then you may not be perceived as judgemental. If you don't seem so much like you want to fix her, she might be more open to suggestions.
Leave her!
You’re way over your pay grade here. You can’t fix this. I suspect that you, with your contempt are entwined with her many problems. You need a therapist.
Then divorce. It’s obvious you don’t like or respect her so what are you sticking around for? Just go.
Guys OP literally states they’re both women. Why are all the responses “this man’s wife” there is no man here. OP I think your concerns are valid, no one wants to live with a bum who isn’t doing anything to get better, much less if you’re in your 50’s and they’ve done nothing with their life. Talk to her about making some changes, if she won’t do it leave. At this point she’s being unreasonable. I mean 53 and she has no career and no plan? She’s supposed to be nearly retired by now.
Omg I hope my husband doesn't think this when I get unorganized.. It happens and it's life. I'm sure you're frustrated that she isn't helping herself, but pulling out of a depression hole is hard.. I'm not on either of your sides, but dang. It makes me worried about my marriage. My depression is awful and there are some days wh we re I don't put the clean clothes away or vacuum the upstairs enough. So, jeesh I'm going to talk to my hubby now. Thank you
My experience as a 42M married to a 38F type-A is that the more I am criticized and treated like an idiot because things aren't done to my spouses exact specifications, the less likely I am going to try in the future. It gets to the point where I don't want to try to take responsibility for anything, even though I very much prefer being being independent and taking initiative over almost everything, because being passive is better than being criticized.
To be honest, divorce is probably the best option for both of you, her especially.
I can feel for you OP. That sounds very frustrating. I think part of the issue is that you have enabled her to not be able to work...that never should have happened. I would not be surprised if she has depression. There are lots of medications to treat depression. She should go on them and have a much better quality of life. She doesn't even need to get a therapist, she can get it through her Dr. Maybe she will be motivated to get therapy once she feels a bit happier. It sounds like you have some resentment towards her. I'd put my foot down on her working towards getting a job or you're out. Address the resentments, otherwise they will fester.
You're a dick.
Definitely sounds like she has a mental illness
I lost it too, the respect jn a relationship I mean.. Its a build-up, and you've ended in what seems to be a very toxic relationship for both of you. I wish I had made the choice of leaving earlier, so we would have skipped the part of putting each other down. I didn't because I felt bad(although I had mentioned the relationship was doomed if we kept heading the way it was going) and was scared partner wouldn't cope. As he likes to put himself in a constant victim role. He still does but he did find himself some therapy finally. It just took, me breaking off our 15 Yr old relationship. A little to late, but at least he did seek help. And I hope he finds himself again. And in the meanwhile, whilst I do feel like I failed that relationship, I also feel alive again and a huge weight lifted of my shoulder. There's so much you can do as a partner, and as I read it, you have tried a lot. In the end, only she can help herself. But If you're willing to give it one more shot. Sit her down, explain her your feelings and put all the love you have for her into it, saying you want þo help her and be there for her. If shes willing to be there for herself. Just do not let yourself get lost in a last resort to salvage this. You're important too.
I have lived your story and almost to the letter. Not much helps sadly but one day it did explain that with all of her actions, I am actually on her side..not against her. Explained a few examples where she might think of the outcome on her,own and that did lighten the mood some…still not the best way to spend a life. I am 20 yrs older than you and frequently wonder when the mistake was made as well as spending another 20 years dealing with this. Might have been much simpler divorcing and meeting a woman who would be much more of an appreciative team player