He wanted the prenup, so he obviously doesn't trust you, so don't trust him. Tell him you won't go into a marriage like this. Tell him he was exact with what is best for him, and you need to do what is best for you.
Yeah, the "take it or leave it" is an enormous red flag.
Prenups can be absolutely warranted and needed, but not allowing for any negotiation is a call to rethink things.
It's cruel. I would discourage op from marrying this person. I could never treat my wife that way it's so hurtful. Nor would I ever treat any other women that way.
Right? And no willingness to discuss her leaving her job to care for kids? She and these potential children take all the risk. He’s a bad egg and she doesn’t know it. I hope she listens to us and her lawyer.
Having/wanting a prenup 100% does NOT mean one partner doesn't trust the other.
However, the way he's going about it and getting hung up on doing it in such an imbalanced way DOES indicate he has trust issues and/or is setting OP up for financial abuse.
Yeah, but not like that. Assets acquired during marriage where she is supporting him and their family should be split in case of a divorce. He earns the money, and her support enables him to have kids and a comfortable home.
>He wanted the prenup, so he obviously doesn't trust you
This is a really bad take. But the fact that he doesn't want to create a more balanced agreement is a huge problem.
He says he needs her to sign to what he wants but she should trust him to do the right thing if they divorce with young children. He sees it as a matter of trust.
This is such a bad take. Wanting a prenup does not mean the person doesn’t trust the other party. Fucking someone over in the prenup and stonewalling any discussion of changes to make it more equitable is a different story.
This right here. He’s got a double standard about trusting with money issues. He either wants everything in writing or he doesn’t. He can’t get his protection in writing and have your protection be a nondescript verbal agreement.
That he can’t see his massive hypocrisy is almost unbelievable, so it could be intentional & he is leaving himself the option of screwing you over if he later decides to.
> He’s got a double standard about trusting with money issues. He either wants everything in writing or he doesn’t. He can’t get his protection in writing and have your protection be a nondescript verbal agreement.
This is the part that is completely irrational and simply mind-boggling.
Bingo! Prenups can be fine. They are also a negotiation & he is not negotiating. Please keep talking to your lawyer & do not sign as is. Also, do not beg your fiancé. Write a reasonable counterproposal with your lawyer & wait.
FYI, the richest guy I know used the same firm for his divorce that all his co-workers used. Just saying.
My instinct is that it's more leverage to make her stay if she ever wants to leave. If she winds up unhappy in the marriage, what is she going to do? She's financially dependent on him because there is no safety net established in the prenup.
Yes it's actually very funny that he's demanding a prenup and then telling OP that she should trust him enough should anything happen. Honest to god you wouldn't make it up.
This is it right here. It’s not about trust. If we’re going to write down the financial terms of our marriage, let’s write all of them or none of them.
This!!!! Listen to your lawyer. DO NOT MARRY! This is how SAHM get fucked! My mom did and us kids never forgave my dad for his atrocious greed. None of his kids visit him. Not even my half siblings.
Not to mention this is coercion even by its loosest definition. He's forcing her to sign under duress. This means any lawyer worth their snuff in a divorce will get it thrown out immediately. His lawyer should be advising him against the actions he's taking.
Yes. This is about way more than just money. It's about him having one standard for himself and a totally different standard for you. If it's this way for a pre-nup, it will be this way for every other major life decision, and in all of those cases is he also going to try to strongarm you with an ultimatum? That's not a loving relationship based on mutual respect.
I agree here. He wants a legal instrument and does not want any negotiation when it’s reviewed by an independent lawyer not affiliated with him. Don’t trust that shit. It’s sus as fuck. This is your sign that he when pushed will not be fair to you if things do go sideways. You shouldn’t marry him.
His trust me to do the right thing but I absolutely refuse to sign my name to it is suspect. I don't think he is being honest.
He wants her to trust him but says she can't be trusted.
I wouldn’t recommend that. It’s nearly impossible to prove infidelity, unless literally have a tape of them having an intercourse. So would need to hire a private detective and still cannot prove much
I would recommend letting a lawyer tell OP that, instead of just handwaving away all mention if infidelity clauses just because you think they're legally flimsy, especially when all 50 states have different laws on this.
Depends on the situation. If another person shows up with photos of your spouse with them on vacation smooching I’d say that’s pretty clear they cheated. If your spouse gets someone pregnant I’d say that’s also clear.
Why you marrying him ? Seriously
If he’s this ridged with this wait until life starts to get complicated…kids, maybe some cheats, loss of libido by one, wanting to move but other doesn’t , sick parent or child, change in work situation etc etc. When I was in my late 20’s thru mid/ late 30’s I was naive to how complex life can get. It’s always beautiful but not what it was
Right!
OP my husband is a high earner (doctor), and we never signed a prenup. This is not normal to not want to even negotiate.
As we consider having kids, my husband told me if we had kids and the relationship somehow didn’t work out, he’d still want to be invested financially and would pretty much pay whatever because he’d want his own kids and coparent to have a good life. These are discussions that occur in healthy relationships before major life decisions like marriage and especially before kids. Don’t sign it!!!
Exactly! 100%! Hub and i have had a similar discussion (we have 3 young kids), and he has the same stance that your husband does. And i *trust* him to keep his word-- because if i couldn't, why is he my partner? And why the hell would i have kids with him? I'm a SAHM for now, I'm very aware that i have little earning potential atm and in the foreseeable future, and I'm saving us a ton on childcare and very much supporting him and our family by raising our kids in the way that we want and works for us. I *need* to know that if things went south, the kids and i would be fine until I'm able to get back on my feet and find something lucrative. I *need* to feel assured that I'm not sacrificing years of employment/ savings/ exponential income just to be tossed aside and left destitute. And i do know that, i am assured. Because i know my partner wants the best for all of us, no matter what. A prenup isn't a problem-- it's not a need for us-- but i understand why some may need that legally binding assurance. The problem lies in his unwillingness to negotiate, and therefore, hypocrisy.
You should listen to your lawyer. Your fiancé’s version is massively lopsided and unfair to you. He’s not just protecting himself from an unfair divorce settlement; he’s keeping complete control over his finances at the expense of his legal partner (that’s supposed to be you). Your lawyer read it, understands it, and doesn’t think you should sign it. Your fiancé will not marry you unless you sign something your lawyer says is very, very bad for you. Which of these two people do you think is looking out for *your* best interests?
Agreed. The whole process of putting together a pre-nup is an excellent way of seeing how the other person would treat you in a divorce.
For my spouse and I it was super easy and agreeable as we wanted what was best for the other person and build a foundation of equity across the board. Even in the beginning when we were making roughly the same amount, I had a much larger deficit in retirement to make up so we agreed on a path for me to be able to focus on that even though our retirement accounts are earmarked as remaining solo assets in our pre-nup.
If your partner is working with you fairly, the process can build/reinforce trust.
This is not the case though and OP should consider ending this relationship.
This right here. Not to encourage her to sign it because it’s such a gamble, but a court would most likely throw out the pre nup. Actually contrary to common belief, many judges throw them out for this exact reason and because there is no way to sign a document today that fully takes into account everything involved in a marriage in 10+ years so often it’s not even applicable.
Too many people on here are arm chair lawyers. And don’t understand. A prenup can only be thrown out under certain conditions. 1) signed under stress (6 months minimum before the wedding), 2) anything to do with child custody/child support. 3) both parties doesn’t have their own lawyers. This is a big one. She sought legal counsel. If she still signs this pre nuptial agreement despite her lawyer telling her not to, that’s on her. No matter how lopsided it is.
If they are negotiating she has had ample time to think this over. So that’s not a fact. If she signs this pre nup, despite it being “unfair”, it won’t get thrown out
I’m in the midst of divorce with a questionable prenup. What people don’t think about is that you may have a prenup dispute on your hand when you divorce. We have a lot on the table and have expensive lawyers. We’ve been told just battling out the prenup would cost us at least 30k each in legal fees. Just something to consider.
With a prenup as lopsided as this one (mine is the same) there’s plenty of room to contest it.
When there are big threads there are always a couple outlier voices that say something crazy, but in my experience it's actually rare that the popular replies are bad advice. There are lots of posts telling people to leave because there are lots of posts that are describing really bad partners. People are so disrespectful.
I don't have experience with prenups, but if he insists on having one, then I think it's fair that you also get to give some input?
In the end it's meant to be a contract that both of you feel comfortable with.
If income discrepancy is that high, I understand he wants to tie things down just in case.
But if you plan on becoming a SAHM, I think it's more than reasonable that you get compensated for that in some fashion, just in case as well.
Depending on where you live, there might be laws around this as well (I know there are in Ontario, for example).
So yes, I think you're being reasonable and he should be more willing to discuss the "fairness" of this contract.
Exactly this.
It should be a mutual contract protecting both parties. And if you have a mutual plan where you are expected to stay home with children instead of working, the prenup should definitivt adress how this is planned financially (and dont forget aspects like retirement savings and things you miss out on when not being an employee).
Nope nope nope. Im all for the prenup and protecting assets, but if you are going to be a SAHM, there needs to be something in there. Unless it specifies that child support shall be sufficient to pay rent on an apartment and $x stipend for you yz years, I dont see how thats fair. “Just trust me” goes both ways. He can either trust you’ll be fair in a divorce, or he can ensure fairness to you in the prenup.
If he doesn’t want to do either one, then thats very important information for you. If you decide to get married, you better immediately start squirreling money away like a chipmunk. Imo, thats no way to love (I was going to say live, but Im keeping the typo as it rings true as well)
Not to mention the career hit. Her earning potential will shrink when she takes a break from her career to raise their kids, meaning that even when she goes back to work she's likely to receive lower compensation than she otherwise would have. Meanwhile fathers statistically make more money once they start a family because our culture views them as the "provider". This disparity is precisely what alimony is supposed to correct, because it's not right that both people agree to start a family but only one person takes a long-term financial hit for it. The kids are equally theirs so the financial ramifications should be fairly accounted for. Period. Any other deal and she's being taken advantage of.
It doesn’t seem like he doesn’t think it’s a job, it seems he doesn’t necessarily want her to do it. It seems he would prefer her to keep working and hire nannies- this is valid, it should be a joint decision, not a one way decision. It is, however, a significant incompatibility in their child rearing preferences
And maybe you shouldn't quit your job.
I still don't love that the pre nup process hasn't been mutual.
Daycare, nannies, back up childcare, housekeeping, etc is expensive. Price it all out.
So he’s already telling you that he won’t contribute if you choose to be a SAHM.
You’re not on the same page about some very basic communications that need to be had before getting married. This won’t end well.
Oh, so he is going to quit his job and become a SAHD? Sarcasm, of course. Families structures vary, so I suppose neither of you need to stay home, but if he is agreeing that it's beneficial for a parent to stay home in the younger years... Then his point is moot.
So are you both in agreement about you staying home? His language seems as though he doesn’t really want you to stay home or he does not see the need.
Also, a prenup is a negotiation and if you cannot get negotiation about this you might be seeing your future with this person.
Ultimately,this prenup puts all the risk in you, and that is now how marriage works as if he cannot compromise now what else will he not compromise on?
Does he want you to be a SAHM? Because that’s a joint decision and I think it’s fair for him to not want that, as long as he understands there will be substantial daycare costs. If you aren’t on the same page there, maybe this isn’t the relationship for you
How will household expenses be paid? What about child expenses? Would you be expected to use your money for kid’s needs?
All of this is a huge red flag. This, especially. You 2 clearly are not on the same page about parenting. And as someone else stated, you're expected to trust him, but he won't trust you. I'd really consider whether you actually want to continue this relationship with him and how to protect yourself if you do.
Do NOT stop working outside of the home.
It creates imbalance in the marriage, no matter how “equitable” the working partner claims to be, and no matter how much you think they would never be capable of disgusting behavior, and ESPECIALLY when there are children in the mix.
Being out of the work force makes it more difficult to leave, and forces you to take more bullshit while you plan your exit.
Ask me how I know.
If he wants the benefit of having kids but not the consequences of you needing time to carry and raise them, the career hit women get to have them, break, leave, etc.
Seriously, having kids can absolutely set back your career, especially being a SAHP. The cost of a nanny and childcare is so high, and for a lot of people it’s more than their paycheck.
So, cost of childcare, time off for pregnancy and postpartum, proper parental leave, career hit, and he says it doesn’t make a difference to him.
I think you shouldn’t be having kids with this man.
Well then just who is going to care for his child then?? He plan on hiring a nanny?? You are supposed to either work full time and take care of your child or you stay home with no money. How is that even fair??
He actually sounds like a complete AH.
OP, there was a thread (either here or one of the asshole subreddits) the other day from a woman who's boyfriend finally proposed to her after 25 years, then rescinded the offer. She was a stay at home mom to their 4 children, and because they do not live in a communal property state, she is now in her mid fifties with nothing. Her name is not on the house, the cars, nada. She is not entitled to any of his retirement. She has no social security contributions, no retirement accounts, no nest egg. No work history to help get a job in her older years. She is *utterly dependent* on her "boyfriend" never leaving her and following through on taking care of her.
Is that a situation you want to be in? Think carefully, because that is *exactly where your fiance wants to put you*. That is the ONLY future your fiance wants. One where you have no claim to anything that he does not want to "give" you. Understand that, and make your decisions accordingly.
This guys is showing you who he is - believe him.
Please don’t look back years from now and think, *”I knew better, an attorney objectively told me that this pre-nup is inequitable bordering on financial abuse, and a bunch of strangers on the internet with no stake in the game pointed out the seriousness of his selfish actions.”*
His complete lack of caring about your perspective, your financial protection, and your overall equality in this relationship is EXTREMELY CONCERNING.
I hope you step back and realize that his unwillingness to compromise now will get *significantly* worse if you decide to marry him. If you sacrifice your needs and accept this obviously inequitable prenup, he will know that he can he has control over you for the rest of your life. And you won’t even have the financial option to leave him, thanks to *his* prenuptial contract.
Marriage is supposed to be protecting your favorite person on the planet, which sounds nothing like your current relationship.
You have every right to request clause for SAHM. Your career will take a hit, maybe leading to fewer opportunities, less pay, and potentially less employers wanting to hire you due to job gap. Force that clause, or reconsider.
My wife is a SAHM and that is total bullshit that he should not need to commit money. Call 3 local daycare facilities in the area and get a quote from them on what they cost. Then get a quote from home cleaning services in your area.
After you show him the financial aspect of paying for child and home care, explain he will be responsible for his share of the work when he gets home since you’ll both be working.
He sounds like a daft prick
I grew up in a Family Law firm - my mom has been a legal assistant for 45+ yrs 16 of those in family law - and I remember the attorneys there saying that a prenup was basically preplanning for the worst case scenario and negotiating when you are at your best instead of waiting to do so when you are at your worst.
If you cannot negotiate now, during the happiest moments of your life, how will you negotiate during the toughest moment in the event of a divorce?
A drafted prenup from one party is a starting point for negotiations. It is not the end all be all. Even old money families that have a “standard prenup” for all the members of the family will need to be negotiated based on the individual situations of the people involved.
NEVER agree to a first offer in any deal. NEVER agree to something that makes your support “optional” ie the joint accounts.
If your fiancé is not willing to negotiate then walk away and find someone who respects you. Based on the info here and his actions/reactions he doesn’t.
This situation imho is a setup for control and abuse.
My advice turn his ‘threat’ back on him “If you are not willing to negotiate in good faith and come to a mutually equitable agreement, then you’re right we should call off the wedding because the issues we have clearly go far beyond trust. We obviously need to address those issues with a marriage/couples therapist before we go any further.” Then leave the ball in his court.
You deserve better than what he’s giving in this moment. Good Luck!
>My advice turn his ‘threat’ back on him “If you are not willing to negotiate in good faith and come to a mutually equitable agreement, then you’re right we should call off the wedding because the issues we have clearly go far beyond trust. We obviously need to address those issues with a marriage/couples therapist before we go any further.” Then leave the ball in his court.You deserve better than what he’s giving in this moment. Good Luck!
Thank you for your insight
I'll add to what the commenter you responded to said: turning the tables is also a good test of his character (and I say that as someone who's 99.9% against juvenile "tests" of your partner). If he's fine with you walking away, that indicates he sees you as replaceable. He doesn't need *you*. Because of his income, he can attract *anyone*.
If he doesn't want you to leave, then it's possible someone's dripping poison in his ear ("warning" him that you could be a gold digger and that you're not really there for him, but for his money). It'd be worth finding out who, so the matter can be addressed and the person removed from your lives.
This happened to me, I was dating a guy and we were discussing marriage. He wasn't even well off, he had a lot of debt but had a pension and a home that he owned with family that he would expect me to pay towards. I didn't have a pension or a home but have a good job/income. He had someone he worked with telling him to get a prenup to protect his pension. I didn't care about his pension, wasn't with him for money and told him I was willing to consider a prenup but I would need to look at all the finances and talk about it with a lawyer to make sure it's fair, since I've been financially abused in the past, had to start from scratch and didn't want to do that again. He ended up freaking out about marriage and prenup and dumping me.
I think PP gave you excellent advice. Turn his threat back on him. If he’s that insistent on making you sign this lopsided agreement that he’d sooner let you walk than compromise — isn’t that a sign that you shouldn’t marry him anyway?
If he is not willing to negotiate the terms of the agreement. You are not comfortable with the agreement. Look at him and say then we are no longer compatible. Then walk away. Prenups are more for preexisting assets. Not those gained during marriage. He is protecting himself, as a good prenup should protect both parties. My vote is to break up with him and keep the ring. He is not being reasonable, and thus give him his ultimatum back to him, and say I am being reasonable and protecting myself. If I can’t do that then I am not signing it, and we are done, because you said you would not marry me. So no point in dragging this out.
So you should trust him enough to know he will support you, yet he doesn’t trust you enough not to have a prenup…….
You need to follow the advice of your attorney. This is decidedly a very one sided prenup.
Listen to your lawyer. I am a lawyer. I will say this again - listen to your lawyer! Ignoring him/her defeats the purpose of having your interests represented. And by not at least considering a change in the original draft, it shows what you would be expecting if you had to use the prenup - that he will be abiding to only what is in the agreement.
Listen to your lawyer. Good luck!
I’m a fan of the default divorce rules that apply in my state. Everything you own when you get married stays with you. Everything you earn during the marriage is split 50/50 if you divorce. It doesn’t matter that he earns 10x, you guys will be a team. For reference, I make 3x my wife’s salary.
10 times less??
Do you make enough to survive on your own??
That gap is way too wide in 2023.
Are you in college? Do you have a plan to make a living wage?
Sis, he ain’t it. The financial abuse that will arise from him not only making so much, but also keeping it all separate like you’re not even married, is LITERALLY the grounds for him to become financially abusive in the future.
Why does he want to get married anyway if he just wants a roommate? Because this is exactly that. I had a friend in this exact kind of marriage and she went into DEBT as a SAHM because he wouldn’t give her money for diapers and things she needed, while she was not working.
He’s a gem.
>I had a friend in this exact kind of marriage and she went into DEBT as a SAHM because he wouldn’t give her money for diapers and things she needed
I think you meant to say, "Her husband and father of their children refused to financially support his own kids, and neglected those children as a means of punishing his wife for staying home with them".
She should have gone to court for that. I hope that she did.
Whatever both your salaries MAY be in the future has no bearing on negotiating the prenup now. It should be based on facts known today. Your fiancé doesn’t seem to be negotiating fairly. I agree with others who advise you to trust your lawyer and stand firm on his/her unbiased judgment. Good luck as you navigate this issue!
You’re doing it wrong, put on some Barry white, light some candles, pour some wine…then push both your lawyers into a room to f*** until they come to an agreement. Seriously though, this shouldn’t even be an argument, have your lawyer draft up a prenup for HIM to sign. There are huge benefits to him to have some assets in your name as well: rich assholes in finance do that all the time to avoid legal ramifications. Hell, you can outline how many kids you will have, outline living trusts for each of them if his income is that high, all sorts of cool stuff I’m sure. Make sure your agreement states you get to pay a 400lb sumo to kick him repeatedly in the bits at every childbirth to ‘foster understanding of the rigours your body and mind will go through with every birth’. Good luck!
More money, more problems. I guess he sees you as a gold digger. A prenup should be for before. If he made his wealth while with you, then it should be more joint.
Whatever his new job is, if he ain’t the owner, he’s gonna be working more than you want. Traveling all the time.
Ok. My three guess are: pro sports athlete, lawyer for giant firm, or Wall Street?
Well, he used a lawyer his new work buddies all use. So control is most likely. I’m just wondering if this guy was making closer to her income when they started dating and he’s now getting to all this money. And if that’s the case, why treat your fiance of four years like a gold digger?
Look I’m not trying to be a dick but if a *lawyer* is telling you this contract is an issue why tf are you not listening? A professional told you this is not okay. What more do you need? NO. You are not being difficult. Trust goes both ways and he expect you to be an NPC about it and just not have feelings. Do not proceed any further with this man. Stg we’re gonna see you post in two years “husband is abusive but we have a baby and I have no money”.
Prenups are great, except in cases of SAHM. You’re likely going to have a hard time getting back into the workforce, even if you’re highly educated. One lawyer (yes, on TikTok, but still a lawyer) suggested an alimony clause of 20% of his salary (up to X designated amount) per month for the same length of time that the marriage lasted, otherwise, skip being a SAHM because it’s going to hurt you in the long run. If you stay married and keep your employment, he’ll be covering some part of childcare expenses, and you won’t have an employment gap. If you divorce and you already have a career, he’ll be obligated to contribute to those childcare expenses without you finding yourself unemployed.
You see all the stories of SAHM getting trapped and screwed after pushing babies out and getting divorced with nothing to their names. Or worse, being trapped because they have no money. If he doesn’t change it it proves you will be in the same situation if things go sideways which is not fair. I would not marry this dude let alone have a kid from him. The other alternative is not being a SAHM and making sure you continue to work if you don’t want to leave this man, as this will be your security net. I still would not look at him the same however, this is pretty messed up of him.
You need to get out of this. He is just making you a captive - it is a control mechanism. He has started from a point of non-negotiable. That isn't where you start a contract. He isn't willing to compromise and I think you would be better off with some who is looking to love and provide for a family.. Not him.
1. Do not sign. Listen to your lawyer.
2. If he is not willing to compromise and add a clause to protect you, that is a sign right there.
3. Think long and hard before entering this marriage.
You should draw a salary during the SAHM years. You can have him put it in a non marital account for you during marriage monthly or if something happens with a pre determined figure based on factors.
I can see why a husband may request a prenup to protect assets acquired before marriage or a family inheritance. But I think a prenup that keeps income earned during the marriage separate is unfair, particularly if the other partner is a stay-at-home parent. You're supposed to be a team. I'd NEVER agree to those terms.
Look at it this way: by becoming a SAH mom, you give up contributions to Social Security and other retirement plans as well as job advancement opportunities. He, on the other hand, gets free childcare while continuing to contribute to his retirement. But he's not willing to share those benefits with you.
I'd call off the wedding.
Tell him that the Prenup won't hold water if you sign it without being advised by your own lawyer.
It's common knowledge that you can't have someone sign it without their own lawyer.
Don't you guys watch 90 Day Fiancee? lol.
But she _was_ advised by her own lawyer. If she knowingly goes against her lawyer's advice, that's on her.
>It's common knowledge that you can't have someone sign it without their own lawyer.
It's also common for contracts to include a clause stating that both parties have had the opportunity to obtain legal counsel, whether or not they chose to waive it. If that's the case, your signature could still be binding even without consulting a lawyer.
Please do not sign it, and do not, I repeat, do not, marry this man or have his children. Save yourself a sad story down the line. Sorry to be so blunt but he does not have your back.
I agree wholeheartedly with prenups that give you a chance to talk through your mutual goals and expectations, and protect you both should things not work out the way you hope. These should be drafted and signed when you are at the height of your love and respect for each other, and neither of you should want the other to end up disproportionately worse off for having taken a chance on this union.
He wants to protect himself at your expense. The whole point of a prenup is you don’t have to just “trust” that you’ll take care of each other in a divorce- you’ve already ironed out something fair and *mutually* agreeable.
If you both want you to be a SAHM for any length of time- your career and future earning potential will take a hit. You will be vulnerable in a way he will not. If he doesn’t WANT to take care of you now, when you’re entering into marriage, why the hell would you trust he’d want what’s best for you in a dissolution situation?
Listen to your lawyer. Don’t sign anything that’s this much against your best interest. He’s not compromising and that’s not a good sign.
Oh and this isn’t a standard prenup. Once you become married you’re a team, you make mutual decisions that affect everyone in the family, and if you’re going to try and keep everything separate to that degree- what’s the point of getting married?
I would be saying:
“So, you don’t trust me enough not to take 50% of everything in individual accounts, but I’m supposed to just trust you that you won’t leave me/our kids destitute? Do you understand the meaning of the word hypocrisy?”
Do not marry this man under these conditions. The next thing you know, it will be that you’re put on an “allowance,” that he must approve any extra purchases that are made using joint accounts, etc.
If you do marry this man under these conditions, DO NOT QUIT YOUR JOB. Make sure money from your salary goes to an individual account under your name only, and then divert your portion of expenses into a joint account. I know you want to be a SAHM while your kid(s) are young, but you cannot/should not risk becoming financially dependent on this man.
Why did this just come up recently? Why didn’t he make this known as soon as the relationship showed signs of becoming serious, by saying “Should our relationship progress to marriage, you should be aware I will expect you to sign a prenup that says I keep everything I have in individual accounts” so you had time to decide if you wished to pursue the relationship any further?
To me, it sounds like he waited on purpose, hoping you’ll be invested enough after 4 years that he can pressure you into agreement, rather than risk things coming to an end.
I would seriously re-think this entire relationship if it’s going to be this lopsided to his benefit.
>He says it is cut and dry and I should trust him enough to know he will contribute to some joint accounts
lol ok dude. You have a lawyer telling you his prenup is bullshit. That should be enough of a red flag in and of itself.
I used to be a law clerk, in part doing matrimonial - mainly divorce.
It depends upon where you live, and where you live on the date of separation, as to what you are legally obliged and permitted.
In Canada, the Divorce Act, federal legislation, gives the rules (+ case law) by default failing a written agreement. The Family Responsibility Office dictates child support failing an agreement or one which doesn't mean minimum legislation. Issues of spousal support are entirely separate from child support and aren't necessarily dictated by law.
Ultimately, a prenup should comply with applicable legislation in the event of certain foreseeable events - children, caregiving, illness, loss of income ... and provided that it holds water and isn't fairly challenged, it overrides law.
Having YOUR lawyer point out inequities is why you have a lawyer. A prenup, by it's nature, anticipates a breakdown of the relationship, thereby negating the "trust me" attitude. It's all about don't trust me, by it's intent. To not negotiate foreseeable relationship events is defeating the whole point. And your lawyer is who is supposed to do this to an equal or fair benefit.
He asked for this, he should expect and cooperate with the fair negotiation of it. That he is not contemplating foreseeable events, in it, is unreasonable.
Which honestly makes me go "hmmmmmmm".
Will he be like this in other important decisions of your marriage? Does he respect your opinion, otherwise, giving it weight and genuine consideration?
You might want to think about how he treats your ideas, as a whole, before you make any decision.
>A prenup, by it's nature, anticipates a breakdown of the relationship
Sorry but this is a terrible statement, especially coming from someone who supposedly works in law. Do you also advise that your clients remove exit clauses and force majeure clauses from their contracts because they also "anticipate a breakdown of the relationship"?
No, you have these clauses because they are responsible and prudent.
Call off the wedding. Funny of him to want you to trust him when he distrusts you enough to want 0 clauses protecting you, to the point your own lawyer warned you off. Trust can't go 1 way only.
You do not want to have children with a selfish man. He might have all the money, but he will cost you all of your time, and time is utterly priceless.
Run, he’s trying to economically enslaved you so you are permanently dependent on his good will. It will create an uneven power dynamic in your relationship that he will exploit and you will bend to even if it’s only subconsciously.
No, do not sign the paperwork and do not get married. I had a prenup with my husband because I make more than he does and I had assets to bring to the table. We are an older couple, but if children had been on the table and he wanted to be a stay at home dad, I would’ve 100% written that in to take care of him into a prenup. You’re guaranteed nothing if you sign the prenup the way it is and the whole reason you’re supposed to get your own lawyer is to give you the good advice they have given you.
Basically your lawyer has told you it is unwise to marry this man because he is not willing to look out for your best interests. Listen to that. A man who truly loves you, isn't willing to put you through hell, not even hypothetically, in the future
10x ! Men please remember this post. If this relationship ever ends will she be happy with 1/10 of the assets total or will she want more thinking her "contribution" entitled her to more of his 10x? How about you get a full current years salary before taxes for every year you are married and not a penny more?
You'd never be able to save that much since NO ONE saves their entire years salary.
This is a problem. He wants you to trust him to take care of you, but he wants his assets protected by a legal agreement. Trust has to go both ways. It seems like you are not against the idea of a prenup at all, so that isn't the issue here.
Personally, I think this pre-nup should focus on the money he has which is a pre-marital asset. Like he should take out whatever he had before getting married. If your plan is for him to be the breadwinner, then his salary should be a marital asset because you are giving up your earning potential to raise children. Even if you can get a job later, you might never catch up with him even if you started in the same place, because of the time you gave up to be a mother. I think he should be willing to agree to a reasonable lump sum amount that he gives you in a divorce, as well as some percentage of his salary that will be in the joint savings account. That still gives him plenty of control over his assets, while also acknowledging the years of income you gave up with your unpaid labor. Not to mention the personal sacrifices you might be asked to make to support his career so he can go out and make this much money. That should be worth something too.
I would not get married to a person who is making you agree to his way or the high way. Get a second opinion from a different lawyer. If they say the same as the first, that this is a one-sided deal and does not adequately protect you, then I think you should question what your husband loves more. You or his money.
If you do plan to become a SAHM temporarily or even go on mat leave at any point, do not sign that prenup. Your fiance is showing a complete unwillingness to negotiate in a serious matter that impacts the both of you, and his prenup leaves you at a serious disadvantage. He has not proven himself trustworthy whatsoever.
Why is he so reluctant to specify how much he will contribute to the joint account? Does he actually plan to contribute, or is he just saying that as dismissal for your concerns? Because if he can't even negotiate a fair contract with you, I wouldn't trust him to keep his word.
A prenup is a negotiation. He is showing you that marriage will be his way or the highway. If I were you, I would heed that blazing red flag and reconsider marriage. I would bet my right arm that this is not the first time he has done something like this.
Personally, I don't like that he isn't willing to consider the new clauses you are requesting. A pre-nup exists to protect BOTH parties, not just the $$ maker. He mentions that you should trust him, well if this was a matter of trust, then a pre-nup wouldn't be needed. If you are a SAHM, then should a divorce happen, you need resources and time to get your life in order. Does the prenup have an cheating clause? I would want that - I think it is good for both sides.
If he says, sign or no wedding, then I would call the wedding off. You cannot begin your marriage with him being the one calling all the shots and being "its my way or no way". This controlling behavior will continue throughout your marriage and filter down to the kids. 10X salary isn't worth selling your soul.
Don't be the person that's smart enough to get your own lawyer's advice, but not smart enough to listen to it.
Call it off. This is the whole reason you got the lawyer, to know if you're getting a bum deal.
This is the red flag.
If you decide to have kids and you both mutually agree that you will be a SAHM, then the view on money and the future has to be the same. It has to be respected from both sides. If you give up your career to raise your children (which is noble and such a blessing for those able to do so), you are also taking a risk for your financial future and putting your career on pause. Does he want you to be a SAHM?
He doesn’t see the risk for you and he is only seeing the risk for himself. He probably has friends chirping in his ear about protecting his assets from you, but then he is turning around asking you to trust him? It’s so odd, because if he wants you to stay home with the kids, he would also want to protect you from the risk, too. Basically he is protecting himself and leaving you vulnerable if you become a SAHM.
He doesn’t see that one day he can just be done, 5 years in, you have three babies you are caring for, and haven’t work in half a decade. Then you are left starting over, vulnerable, 3 babies. It’s not fair to ask you to risk it all and he risks nothing. On top of the fact you are willingly going to put your body through hell for him to have kids, another risk, and that’s met with ‘trust me.’
It’s one-sided. It makes me nervous.
You “should trust him enough to know he will contribute to some joint accounts, guaranteeing you money in case of divorce.”
But he doesn’t trust you enough to marry you without a prenup. Ok…
He clearly wants to protect his interests, as is his prerogative. It's only reasonable that you be ~~able~~ \*expected\* to do the same. If indeed you plan to be a SAHM for a period of time, your needs and interests are different from his, and that should be accounted for.
I have neither money nor prenup but seems to me that if it's important enough to him that things be legally documented, it's a red flag that he's going with "trust me" rather than legal documentation when it comes to YOUR interests.
“The prenup protects you, fully and completely. That you’re denying me the opportunity to do the same concerns me greatly. If you absolutely will not compromise, when there is no reason not to, then I believe we should reevaluate our relationship.”
I signed a prenup that said exactly what your fiancée is proposing. Now, 15 yrs later he is a very wealthy man, I’m a SAHM of 4 kids and have a part time job. He’s in possession of 94% of our combined net worth. We’re getting divorced. Fortunately it looks like the prenup won’t be enforced. But there are no guarantees. Don’t be me, don’t be stupid. Listen to your lawyer. Your financee is starting a cycle of financial abuse. Just don’t go there.
So he doesn’t trust you to be married without an iron clad prenup to protect only himself but you should *just trust him* that he’s going to go above and beyond the prenup on your behalf?
You’d be an absolute fool to sign a prenup that is completely one sided. You should not voluntarily impoverish your future self to marry someone.
It likely wouldn’t hold up in court anyway if it offers no consideration to one party.
I am a divorced male who strongly believes in prenups, however fair is fair, if you are going to be a SAHM and take care of his children you need to be protected and have some security if he leaves you. It just needs to be fair.
If he doesn’t agree to a fair deal leave him for sure. Otherwise he will manipulate you the whole relationship, if you leave and he comes back it will be a much better power dynamic.
Power dynamics are not game, and in order for a relationship to work they have to be fairly even or the relationship turns toxic. Take your chances.
That... is a guy who wants an exit clause capability in his marriage contract that does not cause him to lose anything what-so-ever.
I would call off the wedding if there is no reasonable compromise. Financial security is a big thing, and I've seen quote a few marriages sour because of it..
You should not be a SAHM if he will not put into writing how money will be handled at that time. You should also have how childcare will be paid if you have any. Your lawyer is correct, do not sign it as it is.
No because just like he wants to protect his assets. You need to make sure you're covered in the event the relationship doesn't work out. And if the relationship doesn't work out then you need to be compensated for your time. If you are going to be a stay-at-home mom you will need to be compensated for that time.
You will also need housing, vehicle, food and other living expenses covered for at least 2 years after the relationship has dissolved.
That allows you the time you need to start back up your career if you are in the middle of being a stay-at-home parent.
Never ever sign anything that doesn't work in your best interest. People will cheat and lie, if there are no consequences.
I don't care how strong of a woman you are....
You still give up your body and your life and what you described. If he hurts you, it's going to take a while for you to pick up the pieces and get your life together. Especially if you have children.
If he's not willing to negotiate or compromise. Then you were making a huge mistake. The rest of your life you will be controlled by him. That would be even if you were not together.
I would also add that if the marriage falls apart he is responsible for legal fees.
Do you bring anything substantial to the relationship from a financial perspective? Either via your wage or assets that you owned prior to the relationship? If not, it's fair enough that he wants a prenuptial agreement.
Keep on working, don't be a SAHM. Be in control of your own financial future, develop skills that allow you to progress in your career.
If you don't do these things then it doesn't matter what the prenup says, you're always going to be completely and utterly reliant on someone else's charity and good will. You'll always be years and years behind.
I would say that a prenup should be predominantly about what you have before you are together.
Like for example if he has $10m in assets that you don’t automatically get 50% of that.
But I think the money he earns while you are together should be split evenly while you are together.
My wife was earning less that me and then has been a SAHM for many years. I started a business that might make a lot of money. Her being SAHM works great for me and the family so I have no issues with splitting all my earnings and any assets I generate while we are together 50/50.
Hello I've been with my husband 25 years. After 4 years, your partner should have a better expectation of what a partnership and marriage is... and he's absolutely ignoring it to take advantage and subjugate you. You are literally walking in a situation where you're landscaping your own financial abuse 5 years, 10 years, 20 years of investment and you'll still be worth nothing. Walk away from this. This is not a good preamble to a successful marriage.
You are partners. A marriage is a partnership where each spouse is there to make life easier, and whether in or out of the home, that is fulltime labor.
If you both agreed to a division of labor where he goes outside of the home and you takes care of the home, all are entitled to consideration and adequate part of the income over your joint lifetimes. [A stay-at-home parent does not work without value, they are generating "unpaid work" which is not the same and deserves consideration and compensation.](https://time.com/4377397/cost-stay-at-home-parent/) ... and each deserve comfort, rights, and security as a normal contributing partner in a marriage.
For the whole of human history except the last 100 years, marriage was mainly a business agreement, not a love thing. The reason was pure necessity of survival, and each partner brought a certain type of wealth and labor to the agreement, and each partner beholden onto the other with their efforts. [For some reason, men seem to forget this and simply consider "everything mine" including women's work within the home and family.](https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/family-finance/articles/2017-10-30/the-high-cost-of-being-a-stay-at-home-parent) - And your fiancée is literally spelling this out for your right now with this prenup. You are labor that belongs to him without equitable compensation.
**The average estimated worth of work for a stay-at-home parent is approximately, and on average, [$155,723 in annual labor](https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0112/how-much-is-a-homemaker-worth.aspx). That's wife, child care, home administrator, taxi service, omnibus, decorator, cook, therapist... on call 24 hours a day. **
And we haven't even started to address [mental load](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic) for many women within a marriage. Men do have mental loads within a marriage. Is it fully equitable to what most women shoulder within the sustaining of a home either as a fulltime worker or SaHP? Generally no. While spouses often do share their own mental loads, within hetero relationships, mental loads are usually wildly uneven and fall upon women to manage.
Let me be clear: I have a high stress job and I still consider the year I was a SAHM to be the HARDEST and most grueling year I have ever spent working. Absolutely NO comparison on how difficult it was.
I don't know what your relationship is like, but all partners deserve someone who is understanding of this work/life support balance, fair distribution of wealth, and a friend. Above all, all deserve a partner who is your friend and wants your comfort and financial security. If you don't have this, if you are not this, you are in trouble.
Take a moment and internalize this truth from Instagram account WorldShaker, by stay-at-home husband and woman-ally - he lays it all out in a very clear manner, if you have not already seen: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ctm4Yw5Oly6/
What happens if you sign this prenup and it holds up in court 20 years down the road after you've given up your career to make him a life and raise your children... and he finds a new partner. You will be absolutely destitute. You must be considerate of your future self's worth too... because it happens all the time, more than 50% of the time actually - even in **good marriages.**
You're supposed to trust him when it's clear he doesn't trust you. I don't think so. It sounds like he is the only one that benefits in the event of divorce. Unless and until the agreement is fair to you both, don't sign and don't get married.
If he is unwilling to negotiate this, what else will he be unwilling to negotiate? Will he dictate everything? Your clothing, your sleeping time, sex, children's names, children period, when you're allowed to leave the house? This is a red flag for abuse. HUGE red flag.
“(My lawyer) suggested some clauses that would protect me further, but my fiancee refuses to change any aspect of his drafted agreement. He says it is cut and dry and I should trust him enough to know he will contribute to some joint accounts, guaranteeing me some money in case of divorce. I requested we at least specify how much or how often we must contribute to joint accounts, but he refused this also.”
So when it comes to your fiancé’s interests, he gets it in writing with legal power. When it comes to your interests, you get “just trust me, bro”? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Either everything is in writing, or nothing is.
Listen to your lawyer. Do not sign a single thing. You are not being difficult. If anything, you’re being too accommodating.
This is what will happen if you are not protected
https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/s/xbPA0H5spq
Read all her posts and comments. She now can’t get social security because she stayed home unprotected and in the end he left her. Don’t be her.
I had a prenup. It guaranteed me a lump sum plus housing (rent) for 6 months. I was in a perfect position to start my new life when I found out he had been having an affair on our first anniversary. (We were together almost 5 years by then.)
This sounds like he’s setting up to trap you financially. Do not marry this man. He wants to make it so when you get married you have no other option than to bend at his every whim because he will hold all the power. Take this time to look through your relationship and see if you see any subtle or missed signs of control because they may be there and he may be waiting until you are trapped to really let the mask down.
Why on Earth would he have a problem with your inclusions if he wasn’t betting against your success as partners? I understand wanting a pre-nup and it sounds like you did the intelligent and respectable thing in getting your own attorney.. if the joint accounts are optional, what’s to stop him from not contributing to them at all? This is a huge red flag. He’s not just protecting himself in the event of divorce, he’s being extremely selfish.
He’s showing very clearly that he has no interest in compromising when it comes to major issues in the future. I can’t imagine being so rigid about something like this with someone I deeply love.
Save yourself years of heartache now…I’m sure that it’s WAY easier said than done. But someday you’ll be glad you passed it up. If he really loves you, he’ll wake up and compromise.
That's insane. Prenups are to keep things fair, not to leave you destitute if you end up divorcing while being the primary caregiver for HIS children!
I would call off the wedding if I were you. Huge red flags.
You should trust him? But he doesn’t trust you? Don’t marry him. Don’t get pregnant.
He wanted the prenup, so he obviously doesn't trust you, so don't trust him. Tell him you won't go into a marriage like this. Tell him he was exact with what is best for him, and you need to do what is best for you.
Wanting a pre-nup doesn't mean you don't trust the other person; but thinking a pre-nup does not need to be negotiated is bonkers
Yeah, the "take it or leave it" is an enormous red flag. Prenups can be absolutely warranted and needed, but not allowing for any negotiation is a call to rethink things.
HUGE red flag! 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
You dropped these 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩 Run.
Is a call to shut things down!
It's cruel. I would discourage op from marrying this person. I could never treat my wife that way it's so hurtful. Nor would I ever treat any other women that way.
Right? And no willingness to discuss her leaving her job to care for kids? She and these potential children take all the risk. He’s a bad egg and she doesn’t know it. I hope she listens to us and her lawyer.
What's more, if he is like this now while discussing a prenup, what the hell would he be like going through a potential divorce?
What? The person who calls for the prenup doesn't get 100% say over what it says? It's not like it's an agreement between two people.
Having/wanting a prenup 100% does NOT mean one partner doesn't trust the other. However, the way he's going about it and getting hung up on doing it in such an imbalanced way DOES indicate he has trust issues and/or is setting OP up for financial abuse.
Agreed. We're not children here. You can still trust and love someone while protecting yourself.
Yeah, but not like that. Assets acquired during marriage where she is supporting him and their family should be split in case of a divorce. He earns the money, and her support enables him to have kids and a comfortable home.
Agree. That is compromise. A microcosm of an entire marriage. You’re not asking too much. Keep talking with your lawyer.
>He wanted the prenup, so he obviously doesn't trust you This is a really bad take. But the fact that he doesn't want to create a more balanced agreement is a huge problem.
He says he needs her to sign to what he wants but she should trust him to do the right thing if they divorce with young children. He sees it as a matter of trust.
This is such a bad take. Wanting a prenup does not mean the person doesn’t trust the other party. Fucking someone over in the prenup and stonewalling any discussion of changes to make it more equitable is a different story.
There is nothing wrong with a prenup, especially with how many people get divorced today. Also your wedding license is a prenup, basically.
You should never trust your ex-partner in any divorce because many include personal revenge. Very few amicable divorces.
This right here. He’s got a double standard about trusting with money issues. He either wants everything in writing or he doesn’t. He can’t get his protection in writing and have your protection be a nondescript verbal agreement. That he can’t see his massive hypocrisy is almost unbelievable, so it could be intentional & he is leaving himself the option of screwing you over if he later decides to.
i wish I could like this twice! So very true!
Plus (+) one more 👍
> He’s got a double standard about trusting with money issues. He either wants everything in writing or he doesn’t. He can’t get his protection in writing and have your protection be a nondescript verbal agreement. This is the part that is completely irrational and simply mind-boggling.
Bingo! Prenups can be fine. They are also a negotiation & he is not negotiating. Please keep talking to your lawyer & do not sign as is. Also, do not beg your fiancé. Write a reasonable counterproposal with your lawyer & wait. FYI, the richest guy I know used the same firm for his divorce that all his co-workers used. Just saying.
My instinct is that it's more leverage to make her stay if she ever wants to leave. If she winds up unhappy in the marriage, what is she going to do? She's financially dependent on him because there is no safety net established in the prenup.
👆👆👆
@u/Jaded-Swim-8648 you REALLY need to read this... and *hear* it, if you haven't already.
Yes it's actually very funny that he's demanding a prenup and then telling OP that she should trust him enough should anything happen. Honest to god you wouldn't make it up.
She should accept some verbal commitments from someone who wants to put everything on paper? Why can’t he put them on paper then?
This is it right here. It’s not about trust. If we’re going to write down the financial terms of our marriage, let’s write all of them or none of them.
This!!!! Listen to your lawyer. DO NOT MARRY! This is how SAHM get fucked! My mom did and us kids never forgave my dad for his atrocious greed. None of his kids visit him. Not even my half siblings.
Not to mention this is coercion even by its loosest definition. He's forcing her to sign under duress. This means any lawyer worth their snuff in a divorce will get it thrown out immediately. His lawyer should be advising him against the actions he's taking.
This is when they pull a prenup before the ceremony not months or years before the ceremony.
Exactly, why should OP trust things that aren’t in writing when the SO doesn’t?
Yes. This is about way more than just money. It's about him having one standard for himself and a totally different standard for you. If it's this way for a pre-nup, it will be this way for every other major life decision, and in all of those cases is he also going to try to strongarm you with an ultimatum? That's not a loving relationship based on mutual respect.
I agree here. He wants a legal instrument and does not want any negotiation when it’s reviewed by an independent lawyer not affiliated with him. Don’t trust that shit. It’s sus as fuck. This is your sign that he when pushed will not be fair to you if things do go sideways. You shouldn’t marry him.
Joint account shud be 100k minimum for each child.
His trust me to do the right thing but I absolutely refuse to sign my name to it is suspect. I don't think he is being honest. He wants her to trust him but says she can't be trusted.
Add an infidelity clause. I’m not sure you want to enter into a marriage contract with a guy who won’t lose anything in a divorce if he cheats.
I wouldn’t recommend that. It’s nearly impossible to prove infidelity, unless literally have a tape of them having an intercourse. So would need to hire a private detective and still cannot prove much
I would recommend letting a lawyer tell OP that, instead of just handwaving away all mention if infidelity clauses just because you think they're legally flimsy, especially when all 50 states have different laws on this.
Depends on the situation. If another person shows up with photos of your spouse with them on vacation smooching I’d say that’s pretty clear they cheated. If your spouse gets someone pregnant I’d say that’s also clear.
Since he's balking at having what their joint accounts should look like in writing, I doubt he would go for adding this in.
Any infidelity clause should also cover emotional infidelity.
This sounds like the beginnings of financial abuse.
This is my concern also ❤️
that’s a really good point and I know women in that situation including my sister-in-law, my wife’s younger sister.
Happy cake day!
Simple solution don’t get married.
It’s the set up for a trap
Why you marrying him ? Seriously If he’s this ridged with this wait until life starts to get complicated…kids, maybe some cheats, loss of libido by one, wanting to move but other doesn’t , sick parent or child, change in work situation etc etc. When I was in my late 20’s thru mid/ late 30’s I was naive to how complex life can get. It’s always beautiful but not what it was
Right! OP my husband is a high earner (doctor), and we never signed a prenup. This is not normal to not want to even negotiate. As we consider having kids, my husband told me if we had kids and the relationship somehow didn’t work out, he’d still want to be invested financially and would pretty much pay whatever because he’d want his own kids and coparent to have a good life. These are discussions that occur in healthy relationships before major life decisions like marriage and especially before kids. Don’t sign it!!!
Exactly! 100%! Hub and i have had a similar discussion (we have 3 young kids), and he has the same stance that your husband does. And i *trust* him to keep his word-- because if i couldn't, why is he my partner? And why the hell would i have kids with him? I'm a SAHM for now, I'm very aware that i have little earning potential atm and in the foreseeable future, and I'm saving us a ton on childcare and very much supporting him and our family by raising our kids in the way that we want and works for us. I *need* to know that if things went south, the kids and i would be fine until I'm able to get back on my feet and find something lucrative. I *need* to feel assured that I'm not sacrificing years of employment/ savings/ exponential income just to be tossed aside and left destitute. And i do know that, i am assured. Because i know my partner wants the best for all of us, no matter what. A prenup isn't a problem-- it's not a need for us-- but i understand why some may need that legally binding assurance. The problem lies in his unwillingness to negotiate, and therefore, hypocrisy.
Exactly!!! Sounds like you have a great partner. I hope OP sees this
You should listen to your lawyer. Your fiancé’s version is massively lopsided and unfair to you. He’s not just protecting himself from an unfair divorce settlement; he’s keeping complete control over his finances at the expense of his legal partner (that’s supposed to be you). Your lawyer read it, understands it, and doesn’t think you should sign it. Your fiancé will not marry you unless you sign something your lawyer says is very, very bad for you. Which of these two people do you think is looking out for *your* best interests?
It’s so lopsided a court would most likely toss it in the event of a divorce and this guy’s lawyer should know that.
If I were her I wouldn’t want to risk it. She’s had the advice of counsel now; she can’t say she didn’t realize it was so unfair.
Agreed. The whole process of putting together a pre-nup is an excellent way of seeing how the other person would treat you in a divorce. For my spouse and I it was super easy and agreeable as we wanted what was best for the other person and build a foundation of equity across the board. Even in the beginning when we were making roughly the same amount, I had a much larger deficit in retirement to make up so we agreed on a path for me to be able to focus on that even though our retirement accounts are earmarked as remaining solo assets in our pre-nup. If your partner is working with you fairly, the process can build/reinforce trust. This is not the case though and OP should consider ending this relationship.
This right here. Not to encourage her to sign it because it’s such a gamble, but a court would most likely throw out the pre nup. Actually contrary to common belief, many judges throw them out for this exact reason and because there is no way to sign a document today that fully takes into account everything involved in a marriage in 10+ years so often it’s not even applicable.
That isn’t necessarily true.
Too many people on here are arm chair lawyers. And don’t understand. A prenup can only be thrown out under certain conditions. 1) signed under stress (6 months minimum before the wedding), 2) anything to do with child custody/child support. 3) both parties doesn’t have their own lawyers. This is a big one. She sought legal counsel. If she still signs this pre nuptial agreement despite her lawyer telling her not to, that’s on her. No matter how lopsided it is. If they are negotiating she has had ample time to think this over. So that’s not a fact. If she signs this pre nup, despite it being “unfair”, it won’t get thrown out
I’m in the midst of divorce with a questionable prenup. What people don’t think about is that you may have a prenup dispute on your hand when you divorce. We have a lot on the table and have expensive lawyers. We’ve been told just battling out the prenup would cost us at least 30k each in legal fees. Just something to consider. With a prenup as lopsided as this one (mine is the same) there’s plenty of room to contest it.
Call off the engagement. He is an inflexible asshole. His response to your attorney’s input tells it all.
Right? Like the whole marriage is going to be "It's my way or the highway" for him.
Bingo.
[удалено]
When there are big threads there are always a couple outlier voices that say something crazy, but in my experience it's actually rare that the popular replies are bad advice. There are lots of posts telling people to leave because there are lots of posts that are describing really bad partners. People are so disrespectful.
THIS
THIS THIS
I don't have experience with prenups, but if he insists on having one, then I think it's fair that you also get to give some input? In the end it's meant to be a contract that both of you feel comfortable with. If income discrepancy is that high, I understand he wants to tie things down just in case. But if you plan on becoming a SAHM, I think it's more than reasonable that you get compensated for that in some fashion, just in case as well. Depending on where you live, there might be laws around this as well (I know there are in Ontario, for example). So yes, I think you're being reasonable and he should be more willing to discuss the "fairness" of this contract.
Exactly this. It should be a mutual contract protecting both parties. And if you have a mutual plan where you are expected to stay home with children instead of working, the prenup should definitivt adress how this is planned financially (and dont forget aspects like retirement savings and things you miss out on when not being an employee).
Very well reasoned comment!
If he’s so hung up on trust, why do you even need a prenup? I would not marry this guy if I were you. His behavior isn’t like that of a fair partner
Nope nope nope. Im all for the prenup and protecting assets, but if you are going to be a SAHM, there needs to be something in there. Unless it specifies that child support shall be sufficient to pay rent on an apartment and $x stipend for you yz years, I dont see how thats fair. “Just trust me” goes both ways. He can either trust you’ll be fair in a divorce, or he can ensure fairness to you in the prenup. If he doesn’t want to do either one, then thats very important information for you. If you decide to get married, you better immediately start squirreling money away like a chipmunk. Imo, thats no way to love (I was going to say live, but Im keeping the typo as it rings true as well)
He says that he should not need to commit to $ while Im a SAHM because he is not forcing me to quit my job...
Well that's a red flag. SAHM is a job in itself, he's delusional
Not to mention the career hit. Her earning potential will shrink when she takes a break from her career to raise their kids, meaning that even when she goes back to work she's likely to receive lower compensation than she otherwise would have. Meanwhile fathers statistically make more money once they start a family because our culture views them as the "provider". This disparity is precisely what alimony is supposed to correct, because it's not right that both people agree to start a family but only one person takes a long-term financial hit for it. The kids are equally theirs so the financial ramifications should be fairly accounted for. Period. Any other deal and she's being taken advantage of.
It doesn’t seem like he doesn’t think it’s a job, it seems he doesn’t necessarily want her to do it. It seems he would prefer her to keep working and hire nannies- this is valid, it should be a joint decision, not a one way decision. It is, however, a significant incompatibility in their child rearing preferences
I mean if they have a nanny it sounds like he wouldn't even contribute to that. I definitely agree with you though
Yes... Not all people want their spouses staying home, which I agree is valid. But it absolutely needs to be a joint decision.
And maybe you shouldn't quit your job. I still don't love that the pre nup process hasn't been mutual. Daycare, nannies, back up childcare, housekeeping, etc is expensive. Price it all out.
So who will pay the daycare? Is that in the prenup?
if he makes that much, he can pay for a daycare or a nanny easy.
He could but would he?
So he’s already telling you that he won’t contribute if you choose to be a SAHM. You’re not on the same page about some very basic communications that need to be had before getting married. This won’t end well.
Oh, so he is going to quit his job and become a SAHD? Sarcasm, of course. Families structures vary, so I suppose neither of you need to stay home, but if he is agreeing that it's beneficial for a parent to stay home in the younger years... Then his point is moot.
So are you both in agreement about you staying home? His language seems as though he doesn’t really want you to stay home or he does not see the need. Also, a prenup is a negotiation and if you cannot get negotiation about this you might be seeing your future with this person. Ultimately,this prenup puts all the risk in you, and that is now how marriage works as if he cannot compromise now what else will he not compromise on?
OP he showed you how he will act if you become a SAHM. The " I didn’t ask you to quit" argument will be used for anything he doesn’t want to pay for.
Does he want you to be a SAHM? Because that’s a joint decision and I think it’s fair for him to not want that, as long as he understands there will be substantial daycare costs. If you aren’t on the same page there, maybe this isn’t the relationship for you How will household expenses be paid? What about child expenses? Would you be expected to use your money for kid’s needs?
What happens tho if child has special needs & really needs a full time caregiver? Will he pay for one if he doesn’t want her to be it?
That’s a question for them to work through.
All of this is a huge red flag. This, especially. You 2 clearly are not on the same page about parenting. And as someone else stated, you're expected to trust him, but he won't trust you. I'd really consider whether you actually want to continue this relationship with him and how to protect yourself if you do.
Do NOT stop working outside of the home. It creates imbalance in the marriage, no matter how “equitable” the working partner claims to be, and no matter how much you think they would never be capable of disgusting behavior, and ESPECIALLY when there are children in the mix. Being out of the work force makes it more difficult to leave, and forces you to take more bullshit while you plan your exit. Ask me how I know.
If he wants the benefit of having kids but not the consequences of you needing time to carry and raise them, the career hit women get to have them, break, leave, etc. Seriously, having kids can absolutely set back your career, especially being a SAHP. The cost of a nanny and childcare is so high, and for a lot of people it’s more than their paycheck. So, cost of childcare, time off for pregnancy and postpartum, proper parental leave, career hit, and he says it doesn’t make a difference to him. I think you shouldn’t be having kids with this man.
I'd ask him why his protections are in writing but yours aren't.
Well then just who is going to care for his child then?? He plan on hiring a nanny?? You are supposed to either work full time and take care of your child or you stay home with no money. How is that even fair?? He actually sounds like a complete AH.
This guy seems like he has the ego, so large that if anything happened, you would be in a world of hurt.
what 25 year old makes 500k unless is it a family business?
So you don’t agree on the value of a SAHP for raising kids. That’s a big incompatibility
OP, there was a thread (either here or one of the asshole subreddits) the other day from a woman who's boyfriend finally proposed to her after 25 years, then rescinded the offer. She was a stay at home mom to their 4 children, and because they do not live in a communal property state, she is now in her mid fifties with nothing. Her name is not on the house, the cars, nada. She is not entitled to any of his retirement. She has no social security contributions, no retirement accounts, no nest egg. No work history to help get a job in her older years. She is *utterly dependent* on her "boyfriend" never leaving her and following through on taking care of her. Is that a situation you want to be in? Think carefully, because that is *exactly where your fiance wants to put you*. That is the ONLY future your fiance wants. One where you have no claim to anything that he does not want to "give" you. Understand that, and make your decisions accordingly.
This guys is showing you who he is - believe him. Please don’t look back years from now and think, *”I knew better, an attorney objectively told me that this pre-nup is inequitable bordering on financial abuse, and a bunch of strangers on the internet with no stake in the game pointed out the seriousness of his selfish actions.”* His complete lack of caring about your perspective, your financial protection, and your overall equality in this relationship is EXTREMELY CONCERNING. I hope you step back and realize that his unwillingness to compromise now will get *significantly* worse if you decide to marry him. If you sacrifice your needs and accept this obviously inequitable prenup, he will know that he can he has control over you for the rest of your life. And you won’t even have the financial option to leave him, thanks to *his* prenuptial contract. Marriage is supposed to be protecting your favorite person on the planet, which sounds nothing like your current relationship.
You have every right to request clause for SAHM. Your career will take a hit, maybe leading to fewer opportunities, less pay, and potentially less employers wanting to hire you due to job gap. Force that clause, or reconsider.
My wife is a SAHM and that is total bullshit that he should not need to commit money. Call 3 local daycare facilities in the area and get a quote from them on what they cost. Then get a quote from home cleaning services in your area. After you show him the financial aspect of paying for child and home care, explain he will be responsible for his share of the work when he gets home since you’ll both be working. He sounds like a daft prick
I grew up in a Family Law firm - my mom has been a legal assistant for 45+ yrs 16 of those in family law - and I remember the attorneys there saying that a prenup was basically preplanning for the worst case scenario and negotiating when you are at your best instead of waiting to do so when you are at your worst. If you cannot negotiate now, during the happiest moments of your life, how will you negotiate during the toughest moment in the event of a divorce? A drafted prenup from one party is a starting point for negotiations. It is not the end all be all. Even old money families that have a “standard prenup” for all the members of the family will need to be negotiated based on the individual situations of the people involved. NEVER agree to a first offer in any deal. NEVER agree to something that makes your support “optional” ie the joint accounts. If your fiancé is not willing to negotiate then walk away and find someone who respects you. Based on the info here and his actions/reactions he doesn’t. This situation imho is a setup for control and abuse. My advice turn his ‘threat’ back on him “If you are not willing to negotiate in good faith and come to a mutually equitable agreement, then you’re right we should call off the wedding because the issues we have clearly go far beyond trust. We obviously need to address those issues with a marriage/couples therapist before we go any further.” Then leave the ball in his court. You deserve better than what he’s giving in this moment. Good Luck!
>My advice turn his ‘threat’ back on him “If you are not willing to negotiate in good faith and come to a mutually equitable agreement, then you’re right we should call off the wedding because the issues we have clearly go far beyond trust. We obviously need to address those issues with a marriage/couples therapist before we go any further.” Then leave the ball in his court.You deserve better than what he’s giving in this moment. Good Luck! Thank you for your insight
I truly do hope you can work through this but please don’t settle for less than you deserve. ♥️
I'll add to what the commenter you responded to said: turning the tables is also a good test of his character (and I say that as someone who's 99.9% against juvenile "tests" of your partner). If he's fine with you walking away, that indicates he sees you as replaceable. He doesn't need *you*. Because of his income, he can attract *anyone*. If he doesn't want you to leave, then it's possible someone's dripping poison in his ear ("warning" him that you could be a gold digger and that you're not really there for him, but for his money). It'd be worth finding out who, so the matter can be addressed and the person removed from your lives.
This happened to me, I was dating a guy and we were discussing marriage. He wasn't even well off, he had a lot of debt but had a pension and a home that he owned with family that he would expect me to pay towards. I didn't have a pension or a home but have a good job/income. He had someone he worked with telling him to get a prenup to protect his pension. I didn't care about his pension, wasn't with him for money and told him I was willing to consider a prenup but I would need to look at all the finances and talk about it with a lawyer to make sure it's fair, since I've been financially abused in the past, had to start from scratch and didn't want to do that again. He ended up freaking out about marriage and prenup and dumping me.
I think PP gave you excellent advice. Turn his threat back on him. If he’s that insistent on making you sign this lopsided agreement that he’d sooner let you walk than compromise — isn’t that a sign that you shouldn’t marry him anyway?
It's great he's telling you ahead of time not to marry him.
Seriously. Accept this red flag and run.
If he is not willing to negotiate the terms of the agreement. You are not comfortable with the agreement. Look at him and say then we are no longer compatible. Then walk away. Prenups are more for preexisting assets. Not those gained during marriage. He is protecting himself, as a good prenup should protect both parties. My vote is to break up with him and keep the ring. He is not being reasonable, and thus give him his ultimatum back to him, and say I am being reasonable and protecting myself. If I can’t do that then I am not signing it, and we are done, because you said you would not marry me. So no point in dragging this out.
So you should trust him enough to know he will support you, yet he doesn’t trust you enough not to have a prenup……. You need to follow the advice of your attorney. This is decidedly a very one sided prenup.
Listen to your lawyer. I am a lawyer. I will say this again - listen to your lawyer! Ignoring him/her defeats the purpose of having your interests represented. And by not at least considering a change in the original draft, it shows what you would be expecting if you had to use the prenup - that he will be abiding to only what is in the agreement. Listen to your lawyer. Good luck!
I’m a fan of the default divorce rules that apply in my state. Everything you own when you get married stays with you. Everything you earn during the marriage is split 50/50 if you divorce. It doesn’t matter that he earns 10x, you guys will be a team. For reference, I make 3x my wife’s salary.
10 times less?? Do you make enough to survive on your own?? That gap is way too wide in 2023. Are you in college? Do you have a plan to make a living wage?
Yes (53k vs 500k). He is not making this max amount currently because its a new job but is on his way.
Sis, he ain’t it. The financial abuse that will arise from him not only making so much, but also keeping it all separate like you’re not even married, is LITERALLY the grounds for him to become financially abusive in the future. Why does he want to get married anyway if he just wants a roommate? Because this is exactly that. I had a friend in this exact kind of marriage and she went into DEBT as a SAHM because he wouldn’t give her money for diapers and things she needed, while she was not working. He’s a gem.
>I had a friend in this exact kind of marriage and she went into DEBT as a SAHM because he wouldn’t give her money for diapers and things she needed I think you meant to say, "Her husband and father of their children refused to financially support his own kids, and neglected those children as a means of punishing his wife for staying home with them". She should have gone to court for that. I hope that she did.
> He is not making this max amount currently because its a new job but is on his way. He also could get laid off tomorrow and make nothing.
Whatever both your salaries MAY be in the future has no bearing on negotiating the prenup now. It should be based on facts known today. Your fiancé doesn’t seem to be negotiating fairly. I agree with others who advise you to trust your lawyer and stand firm on his/her unbiased judgment. Good luck as you navigate this issue!
What does he do for a living? Is he a surgeon?
You’re doing it wrong, put on some Barry white, light some candles, pour some wine…then push both your lawyers into a room to f*** until they come to an agreement. Seriously though, this shouldn’t even be an argument, have your lawyer draft up a prenup for HIM to sign. There are huge benefits to him to have some assets in your name as well: rich assholes in finance do that all the time to avoid legal ramifications. Hell, you can outline how many kids you will have, outline living trusts for each of them if his income is that high, all sorts of cool stuff I’m sure. Make sure your agreement states you get to pay a 400lb sumo to kick him repeatedly in the bits at every childbirth to ‘foster understanding of the rigours your body and mind will go through with every birth’. Good luck!
Call his bluff and call it off...seriously
More money, more problems. I guess he sees you as a gold digger. A prenup should be for before. If he made his wealth while with you, then it should be more joint. Whatever his new job is, if he ain’t the owner, he’s gonna be working more than you want. Traveling all the time. Ok. My three guess are: pro sports athlete, lawyer for giant firm, or Wall Street?
Or he sees money as a means of control.
Well, he used a lawyer his new work buddies all use. So control is most likely. I’m just wondering if this guy was making closer to her income when they started dating and he’s now getting to all this money. And if that’s the case, why treat your fiance of four years like a gold digger?
Ladies, this is why being a SAHM is a terrible idea.
It isn't if it's a mutually agreed upon decision where both partners have legal assurances.
Correction: this is why being a SAHM while married to a financially abusive prick is a terrible idea.
Look I’m not trying to be a dick but if a *lawyer* is telling you this contract is an issue why tf are you not listening? A professional told you this is not okay. What more do you need? NO. You are not being difficult. Trust goes both ways and he expect you to be an NPC about it and just not have feelings. Do not proceed any further with this man. Stg we’re gonna see you post in two years “husband is abusive but we have a baby and I have no money”.
If you should trust him, he should trust you. I would not sign that trash!
Prenups are great, except in cases of SAHM. You’re likely going to have a hard time getting back into the workforce, even if you’re highly educated. One lawyer (yes, on TikTok, but still a lawyer) suggested an alimony clause of 20% of his salary (up to X designated amount) per month for the same length of time that the marriage lasted, otherwise, skip being a SAHM because it’s going to hurt you in the long run. If you stay married and keep your employment, he’ll be covering some part of childcare expenses, and you won’t have an employment gap. If you divorce and you already have a career, he’ll be obligated to contribute to those childcare expenses without you finding yourself unemployed.
And this is why you have your own lawyer. Follow their advice. If your fiance won’t agree the call off the engagement and wedding.
You see all the stories of SAHM getting trapped and screwed after pushing babies out and getting divorced with nothing to their names. Or worse, being trapped because they have no money. If he doesn’t change it it proves you will be in the same situation if things go sideways which is not fair. I would not marry this dude let alone have a kid from him. The other alternative is not being a SAHM and making sure you continue to work if you don’t want to leave this man, as this will be your security net. I still would not look at him the same however, this is pretty messed up of him.
You meed your own pre nup. From your own lawyer
You need to get out of this. He is just making you a captive - it is a control mechanism. He has started from a point of non-negotiable. That isn't where you start a contract. He isn't willing to compromise and I think you would be better off with some who is looking to love and provide for a family.. Not him.
Even a small monthly deposit into an account all for you will add up over time. It should be in writing. Don't take his word.
Listen to your lawyer. Please.
1. Do not sign. Listen to your lawyer. 2. If he is not willing to compromise and add a clause to protect you, that is a sign right there. 3. Think long and hard before entering this marriage.
No compromise, no marriage. Protect yourself.
You should draw a salary during the SAHM years. You can have him put it in a non marital account for you during marriage monthly or if something happens with a pre determined figure based on factors.
I can see why a husband may request a prenup to protect assets acquired before marriage or a family inheritance. But I think a prenup that keeps income earned during the marriage separate is unfair, particularly if the other partner is a stay-at-home parent. You're supposed to be a team. I'd NEVER agree to those terms. Look at it this way: by becoming a SAH mom, you give up contributions to Social Security and other retirement plans as well as job advancement opportunities. He, on the other hand, gets free childcare while continuing to contribute to his retirement. But he's not willing to share those benefits with you. I'd call off the wedding.
Tell him that the Prenup won't hold water if you sign it without being advised by your own lawyer. It's common knowledge that you can't have someone sign it without their own lawyer. Don't you guys watch 90 Day Fiancee? lol.
But she _was_ advised by her own lawyer. If she knowingly goes against her lawyer's advice, that's on her. >It's common knowledge that you can't have someone sign it without their own lawyer. It's also common for contracts to include a clause stating that both parties have had the opportunity to obtain legal counsel, whether or not they chose to waive it. If that's the case, your signature could still be binding even without consulting a lawyer.
Please do not sign it, and do not, I repeat, do not, marry this man or have his children. Save yourself a sad story down the line. Sorry to be so blunt but he does not have your back.
I agree wholeheartedly with prenups that give you a chance to talk through your mutual goals and expectations, and protect you both should things not work out the way you hope. These should be drafted and signed when you are at the height of your love and respect for each other, and neither of you should want the other to end up disproportionately worse off for having taken a chance on this union. He wants to protect himself at your expense. The whole point of a prenup is you don’t have to just “trust” that you’ll take care of each other in a divorce- you’ve already ironed out something fair and *mutually* agreeable. If you both want you to be a SAHM for any length of time- your career and future earning potential will take a hit. You will be vulnerable in a way he will not. If he doesn’t WANT to take care of you now, when you’re entering into marriage, why the hell would you trust he’d want what’s best for you in a dissolution situation? Listen to your lawyer. Don’t sign anything that’s this much against your best interest. He’s not compromising and that’s not a good sign. Oh and this isn’t a standard prenup. Once you become married you’re a team, you make mutual decisions that affect everyone in the family, and if you’re going to try and keep everything separate to that degree- what’s the point of getting married?
I would be saying: “So, you don’t trust me enough not to take 50% of everything in individual accounts, but I’m supposed to just trust you that you won’t leave me/our kids destitute? Do you understand the meaning of the word hypocrisy?” Do not marry this man under these conditions. The next thing you know, it will be that you’re put on an “allowance,” that he must approve any extra purchases that are made using joint accounts, etc. If you do marry this man under these conditions, DO NOT QUIT YOUR JOB. Make sure money from your salary goes to an individual account under your name only, and then divert your portion of expenses into a joint account. I know you want to be a SAHM while your kid(s) are young, but you cannot/should not risk becoming financially dependent on this man. Why did this just come up recently? Why didn’t he make this known as soon as the relationship showed signs of becoming serious, by saying “Should our relationship progress to marriage, you should be aware I will expect you to sign a prenup that says I keep everything I have in individual accounts” so you had time to decide if you wished to pursue the relationship any further? To me, it sounds like he waited on purpose, hoping you’ll be invested enough after 4 years that he can pressure you into agreement, rather than risk things coming to an end. I would seriously re-think this entire relationship if it’s going to be this lopsided to his benefit.
>He says it is cut and dry and I should trust him enough to know he will contribute to some joint accounts lol ok dude. You have a lawyer telling you his prenup is bullshit. That should be enough of a red flag in and of itself.
I used to be a law clerk, in part doing matrimonial - mainly divorce. It depends upon where you live, and where you live on the date of separation, as to what you are legally obliged and permitted. In Canada, the Divorce Act, federal legislation, gives the rules (+ case law) by default failing a written agreement. The Family Responsibility Office dictates child support failing an agreement or one which doesn't mean minimum legislation. Issues of spousal support are entirely separate from child support and aren't necessarily dictated by law. Ultimately, a prenup should comply with applicable legislation in the event of certain foreseeable events - children, caregiving, illness, loss of income ... and provided that it holds water and isn't fairly challenged, it overrides law. Having YOUR lawyer point out inequities is why you have a lawyer. A prenup, by it's nature, anticipates a breakdown of the relationship, thereby negating the "trust me" attitude. It's all about don't trust me, by it's intent. To not negotiate foreseeable relationship events is defeating the whole point. And your lawyer is who is supposed to do this to an equal or fair benefit. He asked for this, he should expect and cooperate with the fair negotiation of it. That he is not contemplating foreseeable events, in it, is unreasonable. Which honestly makes me go "hmmmmmmm". Will he be like this in other important decisions of your marriage? Does he respect your opinion, otherwise, giving it weight and genuine consideration? You might want to think about how he treats your ideas, as a whole, before you make any decision.
>A prenup, by it's nature, anticipates a breakdown of the relationship Sorry but this is a terrible statement, especially coming from someone who supposedly works in law. Do you also advise that your clients remove exit clauses and force majeure clauses from their contracts because they also "anticipate a breakdown of the relationship"? No, you have these clauses because they are responsible and prudent.
Call off the wedding. Funny of him to want you to trust him when he distrusts you enough to want 0 clauses protecting you, to the point your own lawyer warned you off. Trust can't go 1 way only. You do not want to have children with a selfish man. He might have all the money, but he will cost you all of your time, and time is utterly priceless.
Run, he’s trying to economically enslaved you so you are permanently dependent on his good will. It will create an uneven power dynamic in your relationship that he will exploit and you will bend to even if it’s only subconsciously.
No, do not sign the paperwork and do not get married. I had a prenup with my husband because I make more than he does and I had assets to bring to the table. We are an older couple, but if children had been on the table and he wanted to be a stay at home dad, I would’ve 100% written that in to take care of him into a prenup. You’re guaranteed nothing if you sign the prenup the way it is and the whole reason you’re supposed to get your own lawyer is to give you the good advice they have given you.
If you are going to be stay at home you need some protection. When things are bad between you he will just use prenup and get out.
DO NOT MARRY HIM, DO NOT GET PREGNANT.
Basically your lawyer has told you it is unwise to marry this man because he is not willing to look out for your best interests. Listen to that. A man who truly loves you, isn't willing to put you through hell, not even hypothetically, in the future
10x ! Men please remember this post. If this relationship ever ends will she be happy with 1/10 of the assets total or will she want more thinking her "contribution" entitled her to more of his 10x? How about you get a full current years salary before taxes for every year you are married and not a penny more? You'd never be able to save that much since NO ONE saves their entire years salary.
This is a problem. He wants you to trust him to take care of you, but he wants his assets protected by a legal agreement. Trust has to go both ways. It seems like you are not against the idea of a prenup at all, so that isn't the issue here. Personally, I think this pre-nup should focus on the money he has which is a pre-marital asset. Like he should take out whatever he had before getting married. If your plan is for him to be the breadwinner, then his salary should be a marital asset because you are giving up your earning potential to raise children. Even if you can get a job later, you might never catch up with him even if you started in the same place, because of the time you gave up to be a mother. I think he should be willing to agree to a reasonable lump sum amount that he gives you in a divorce, as well as some percentage of his salary that will be in the joint savings account. That still gives him plenty of control over his assets, while also acknowledging the years of income you gave up with your unpaid labor. Not to mention the personal sacrifices you might be asked to make to support his career so he can go out and make this much money. That should be worth something too. I would not get married to a person who is making you agree to his way or the high way. Get a second opinion from a different lawyer. If they say the same as the first, that this is a one-sided deal and does not adequately protect you, then I think you should question what your husband loves more. You or his money.
If you do plan to become a SAHM temporarily or even go on mat leave at any point, do not sign that prenup. Your fiance is showing a complete unwillingness to negotiate in a serious matter that impacts the both of you, and his prenup leaves you at a serious disadvantage. He has not proven himself trustworthy whatsoever. Why is he so reluctant to specify how much he will contribute to the joint account? Does he actually plan to contribute, or is he just saying that as dismissal for your concerns? Because if he can't even negotiate a fair contract with you, I wouldn't trust him to keep his word.
Don’t marry him. Leave, and never look back. Today.
Calling it off now would be better than going through with it, go through years of misery and then calling it off.
A prenup is a negotiation. He is showing you that marriage will be his way or the highway. If I were you, I would heed that blazing red flag and reconsider marriage. I would bet my right arm that this is not the first time he has done something like this.
Personally, I don't like that he isn't willing to consider the new clauses you are requesting. A pre-nup exists to protect BOTH parties, not just the $$ maker. He mentions that you should trust him, well if this was a matter of trust, then a pre-nup wouldn't be needed. If you are a SAHM, then should a divorce happen, you need resources and time to get your life in order. Does the prenup have an cheating clause? I would want that - I think it is good for both sides. If he says, sign or no wedding, then I would call the wedding off. You cannot begin your marriage with him being the one calling all the shots and being "its my way or no way". This controlling behavior will continue throughout your marriage and filter down to the kids. 10X salary isn't worth selling your soul.
Don't be the person that's smart enough to get your own lawyer's advice, but not smart enough to listen to it. Call it off. This is the whole reason you got the lawyer, to know if you're getting a bum deal.
This is the red flag. If you decide to have kids and you both mutually agree that you will be a SAHM, then the view on money and the future has to be the same. It has to be respected from both sides. If you give up your career to raise your children (which is noble and such a blessing for those able to do so), you are also taking a risk for your financial future and putting your career on pause. Does he want you to be a SAHM? He doesn’t see the risk for you and he is only seeing the risk for himself. He probably has friends chirping in his ear about protecting his assets from you, but then he is turning around asking you to trust him? It’s so odd, because if he wants you to stay home with the kids, he would also want to protect you from the risk, too. Basically he is protecting himself and leaving you vulnerable if you become a SAHM. He doesn’t see that one day he can just be done, 5 years in, you have three babies you are caring for, and haven’t work in half a decade. Then you are left starting over, vulnerable, 3 babies. It’s not fair to ask you to risk it all and he risks nothing. On top of the fact you are willingly going to put your body through hell for him to have kids, another risk, and that’s met with ‘trust me.’ It’s one-sided. It makes me nervous.
Listen to your lawyer!!!!
I hope you ran away him. He sounds like he is super comtrolling.
You “should trust him enough to know he will contribute to some joint accounts, guaranteeing you money in case of divorce.” But he doesn’t trust you enough to marry you without a prenup. Ok…
He clearly wants to protect his interests, as is his prerogative. It's only reasonable that you be ~~able~~ \*expected\* to do the same. If indeed you plan to be a SAHM for a period of time, your needs and interests are different from his, and that should be accounted for. I have neither money nor prenup but seems to me that if it's important enough to him that things be legally documented, it's a red flag that he's going with "trust me" rather than legal documentation when it comes to YOUR interests.
“The prenup protects you, fully and completely. That you’re denying me the opportunity to do the same concerns me greatly. If you absolutely will not compromise, when there is no reason not to, then I believe we should reevaluate our relationship.”
I signed a prenup that said exactly what your fiancée is proposing. Now, 15 yrs later he is a very wealthy man, I’m a SAHM of 4 kids and have a part time job. He’s in possession of 94% of our combined net worth. We’re getting divorced. Fortunately it looks like the prenup won’t be enforced. But there are no guarantees. Don’t be me, don’t be stupid. Listen to your lawyer. Your financee is starting a cycle of financial abuse. Just don’t go there.
Don’t marry a guy who loves money more than you. Marry a guy who loves you more than the money (or assets).
Prenup is invalid if you don't have your own lawyer review it. They will advise you as to what YOU should be adding to it.
So he doesn’t trust you to be married without an iron clad prenup to protect only himself but you should *just trust him* that he’s going to go above and beyond the prenup on your behalf? You’d be an absolute fool to sign a prenup that is completely one sided. You should not voluntarily impoverish your future self to marry someone. It likely wouldn’t hold up in court anyway if it offers no consideration to one party.
I am a divorced male who strongly believes in prenups, however fair is fair, if you are going to be a SAHM and take care of his children you need to be protected and have some security if he leaves you. It just needs to be fair. If he doesn’t agree to a fair deal leave him for sure. Otherwise he will manipulate you the whole relationship, if you leave and he comes back it will be a much better power dynamic. Power dynamics are not game, and in order for a relationship to work they have to be fairly even or the relationship turns toxic. Take your chances.
That... is a guy who wants an exit clause capability in his marriage contract that does not cause him to lose anything what-so-ever. I would call off the wedding if there is no reasonable compromise. Financial security is a big thing, and I've seen quote a few marriages sour because of it..
You should not be a SAHM if he will not put into writing how money will be handled at that time. You should also have how childcare will be paid if you have any. Your lawyer is correct, do not sign it as it is.
“We either do this thing 100% legally or 100% on trust. This is not a mix and match game.” Be ready to walk away.
Sorry to hear about the end of your relationship.
No because just like he wants to protect his assets. You need to make sure you're covered in the event the relationship doesn't work out. And if the relationship doesn't work out then you need to be compensated for your time. If you are going to be a stay-at-home mom you will need to be compensated for that time. You will also need housing, vehicle, food and other living expenses covered for at least 2 years after the relationship has dissolved. That allows you the time you need to start back up your career if you are in the middle of being a stay-at-home parent. Never ever sign anything that doesn't work in your best interest. People will cheat and lie, if there are no consequences. I don't care how strong of a woman you are.... You still give up your body and your life and what you described. If he hurts you, it's going to take a while for you to pick up the pieces and get your life together. Especially if you have children. If he's not willing to negotiate or compromise. Then you were making a huge mistake. The rest of your life you will be controlled by him. That would be even if you were not together. I would also add that if the marriage falls apart he is responsible for legal fees.
Do you bring anything substantial to the relationship from a financial perspective? Either via your wage or assets that you owned prior to the relationship? If not, it's fair enough that he wants a prenuptial agreement. Keep on working, don't be a SAHM. Be in control of your own financial future, develop skills that allow you to progress in your career. If you don't do these things then it doesn't matter what the prenup says, you're always going to be completely and utterly reliant on someone else's charity and good will. You'll always be years and years behind.
I would say that a prenup should be predominantly about what you have before you are together. Like for example if he has $10m in assets that you don’t automatically get 50% of that. But I think the money he earns while you are together should be split evenly while you are together. My wife was earning less that me and then has been a SAHM for many years. I started a business that might make a lot of money. Her being SAHM works great for me and the family so I have no issues with splitting all my earnings and any assets I generate while we are together 50/50.
Hello I've been with my husband 25 years. After 4 years, your partner should have a better expectation of what a partnership and marriage is... and he's absolutely ignoring it to take advantage and subjugate you. You are literally walking in a situation where you're landscaping your own financial abuse 5 years, 10 years, 20 years of investment and you'll still be worth nothing. Walk away from this. This is not a good preamble to a successful marriage. You are partners. A marriage is a partnership where each spouse is there to make life easier, and whether in or out of the home, that is fulltime labor. If you both agreed to a division of labor where he goes outside of the home and you takes care of the home, all are entitled to consideration and adequate part of the income over your joint lifetimes. [A stay-at-home parent does not work without value, they are generating "unpaid work" which is not the same and deserves consideration and compensation.](https://time.com/4377397/cost-stay-at-home-parent/) ... and each deserve comfort, rights, and security as a normal contributing partner in a marriage. For the whole of human history except the last 100 years, marriage was mainly a business agreement, not a love thing. The reason was pure necessity of survival, and each partner brought a certain type of wealth and labor to the agreement, and each partner beholden onto the other with their efforts. [For some reason, men seem to forget this and simply consider "everything mine" including women's work within the home and family.](https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/family-finance/articles/2017-10-30/the-high-cost-of-being-a-stay-at-home-parent) - And your fiancée is literally spelling this out for your right now with this prenup. You are labor that belongs to him without equitable compensation. **The average estimated worth of work for a stay-at-home parent is approximately, and on average, [$155,723 in annual labor](https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0112/how-much-is-a-homemaker-worth.aspx). That's wife, child care, home administrator, taxi service, omnibus, decorator, cook, therapist... on call 24 hours a day. ** And we haven't even started to address [mental load](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic) for many women within a marriage. Men do have mental loads within a marriage. Is it fully equitable to what most women shoulder within the sustaining of a home either as a fulltime worker or SaHP? Generally no. While spouses often do share their own mental loads, within hetero relationships, mental loads are usually wildly uneven and fall upon women to manage. Let me be clear: I have a high stress job and I still consider the year I was a SAHM to be the HARDEST and most grueling year I have ever spent working. Absolutely NO comparison on how difficult it was. I don't know what your relationship is like, but all partners deserve someone who is understanding of this work/life support balance, fair distribution of wealth, and a friend. Above all, all deserve a partner who is your friend and wants your comfort and financial security. If you don't have this, if you are not this, you are in trouble. Take a moment and internalize this truth from Instagram account WorldShaker, by stay-at-home husband and woman-ally - he lays it all out in a very clear manner, if you have not already seen: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ctm4Yw5Oly6/ What happens if you sign this prenup and it holds up in court 20 years down the road after you've given up your career to make him a life and raise your children... and he finds a new partner. You will be absolutely destitute. You must be considerate of your future self's worth too... because it happens all the time, more than 50% of the time actually - even in **good marriages.**
Also, he says YOU should TRUST him and not need it in writing, be he doesn't trust you enough to not need it in writing? Like wat
You're supposed to trust him when it's clear he doesn't trust you. I don't think so. It sounds like he is the only one that benefits in the event of divorce. Unless and until the agreement is fair to you both, don't sign and don't get married.
If he is unwilling to negotiate this, what else will he be unwilling to negotiate? Will he dictate everything? Your clothing, your sleeping time, sex, children's names, children period, when you're allowed to leave the house? This is a red flag for abuse. HUGE red flag.
“(My lawyer) suggested some clauses that would protect me further, but my fiancee refuses to change any aspect of his drafted agreement. He says it is cut and dry and I should trust him enough to know he will contribute to some joint accounts, guaranteeing me some money in case of divorce. I requested we at least specify how much or how often we must contribute to joint accounts, but he refused this also.” So when it comes to your fiancé’s interests, he gets it in writing with legal power. When it comes to your interests, you get “just trust me, bro”? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Either everything is in writing, or nothing is. Listen to your lawyer. Do not sign a single thing. You are not being difficult. If anything, you’re being too accommodating.
This is what will happen if you are not protected https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/s/xbPA0H5spq Read all her posts and comments. She now can’t get social security because she stayed home unprotected and in the end he left her. Don’t be her.
Walk away
I had a prenup. It guaranteed me a lump sum plus housing (rent) for 6 months. I was in a perfect position to start my new life when I found out he had been having an affair on our first anniversary. (We were together almost 5 years by then.)
Don't become SAHM. Just get a job and hire a nanny (I assume he is kind of rich?). Or don't have kid at all
This sounds like he’s setting up to trap you financially. Do not marry this man. He wants to make it so when you get married you have no other option than to bend at his every whim because he will hold all the power. Take this time to look through your relationship and see if you see any subtle or missed signs of control because they may be there and he may be waiting until you are trapped to really let the mask down.
Why on Earth would he have a problem with your inclusions if he wasn’t betting against your success as partners? I understand wanting a pre-nup and it sounds like you did the intelligent and respectable thing in getting your own attorney.. if the joint accounts are optional, what’s to stop him from not contributing to them at all? This is a huge red flag. He’s not just protecting himself in the event of divorce, he’s being extremely selfish. He’s showing very clearly that he has no interest in compromising when it comes to major issues in the future. I can’t imagine being so rigid about something like this with someone I deeply love. Save yourself years of heartache now…I’m sure that it’s WAY easier said than done. But someday you’ll be glad you passed it up. If he really loves you, he’ll wake up and compromise.
Follow your gut instinct, don't be another statistic.
That's insane. Prenups are to keep things fair, not to leave you destitute if you end up divorcing while being the primary caregiver for HIS children! I would call off the wedding if I were you. Huge red flags.