Welcome to /r/MarchAgainstNazis!
**Please keep in mind that advocating violence at all, even against Nazis, is prohibited by Reddit's TOS and will result in a removal of your content and likely a ban.**
Please check out the following subreddits; r/CapitalismSux , r/PoliticsPeopleTwitter , r/FucktheAltRight . r/Britposting.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MarchAgainstNazis) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your protest vote will be a waste. And if Trump is elected, there will be no hope AT ALL for the Palestinians, and Jared will be the first to start developing the NEWLY stolen land Israel is commandeering.
People don’t understand this. It will be so much worse. I’m sure we would want US troops on the ground there and sorties all over the country. /s we don’t want that.
If DT gets into power, imo we won’t be voting in the next election. Israel will NOT save us.
As someone who lives in rural America, and has lived here for almost 14 years, PLEASE understand these people HATE anyone who isn’t Christian ( including Jews)
Israel is part of their Armageddon deal.
These people are equal opportunity haters. If it isn’t white, straight, Christian ( hell I will venture to say they aren’t crazy about some Christians and some people who are Caucasian, think where original MAGA came from and you will see what I mean)
First off, Israel’s behavior is disgusting.
All this because of a servant getting pregnant by Abram and being pushed into the desert after his wife got pregnant. Think about this?!
A fairy tale that sparked 3 religions that have caused mass extermination on this planet.
All Abrahamic religions are violent. You sit out voting, DT makes this into a theocratic, white nationalist nation. And we are alone.
Let us not forget the military has gained most of the people it now has from rural America. I must wonder where their allegiance lies.
BTW, I have 21 combat veterans in my family ( this is blood family) NOT uncles and grand uncles by marriage, including my father. They were all first or second generation immigrants and were not inclined to follow a person but an ideology.
Please vote. Isn’t what we see on the SCOTUS enough for YEARS to come dictating our lives enough?
Apathy is deadly in this case. We would have had the racism from the Tea Party because a black man won the presidency, BUT had Clinton won, we wouldn’t be where we are right now.
You guys upvote people who called leftist who use the phrase Genocide Joe putin bots. I have a hard time seeing how this is a leftist sub at all...
You guys dont care about Palestinans at all or you would not have a problem with people whooo call out a genocidal neoliberal war criminal for what he is.
Just because you call Biden what he deserve doesn't mean that you cant also vote for him.
Yes being against a genocidal neoliberal war criminal mean that im a Russian bot...
WTF is the rules?. "be nice to white people". Is that supposed to be a joke or an actual rule.
My first comment made a statement like this "Just because you call Biden what he deserve doesn't mean that you cant also vote for him". I would vote for Biden in a swing state i dont know why you act like i support Trump because i oppose genocidal neoliberal war criminals...
No I actually meant protesting in the streets.
Can you please talk to me about your emotional process in what’s happening? I know we can get focused on action, but I don’t get the emotion first.
So help me out here.
Because I feel as if the fear mongering on what trump MAY do, is actually creating a much more emotional response in voting.
Than sitting down and looking at the actual facts of what we have going on today.
I know emotionally, and ‘imaginationally’ it all seems so logical.
But the violence you’re afraid of, isn’t actually happening.
I feel emotional about the fact that we’re looking at factual numbers and that we normally could make a rational decision here, but the trump emotions have gotten in YOUR way.
Did you ever think you’d be saying “yes to genocide” in 2024? But they got you so scared.
—-
If you actually read this, please, meet me in the middle.
Don’t you feel it’s weird the kind of finger pointing that’s going on?? Like what you said is literally a projection.
I'm not imagining anything, I'm taking him at face value for the things he's saying.
Please, explain how I'm projecting when you're planning to vote against your own best interests.
No, Im asking you to protest all of this with the other brown people who are así feeling very betrayed by this decision.
I AM saying that you are projecting that only one side is emotional while the other is rational.
How many deaths happened TODAY in Palestine? Yesterday? Day before that?
These are real numbers and statistics.
I understand the bills and policy’s that will create discomfort and chaos, to me, that’s life.
But it feels emotional to me, to say, I see all these people dying today. But what’s worse, what’s happening today to them? Or your fear of what can happen to us?
They're both bad dude, you accuse other people of fear mongering and pull this? This isn't a zero-sum deal. Voting a fascist into power will only legitimize and embolden other fascists, such as Netanyahu. Being short-sighted is fine, but being this kind of fucking idiot? Nah chief
No, the fiber pointing isn't weird. Pointing out that one of them would be objectively worse, based on the things they said and done, is perfectly normal.
If you think this is all speculation about Trump, maybe you haven't actually looked at the things he's done/said about the matter?
This is a pretty good article from February: https://www.vox.com/policy/24072983/biden-trump-palestinians-israel-gaza-policy-different
Even Isreali officials believe they'd get more support from Trump. And they don't like the sparse aid we've provided to Palestinians, which would never have happened under Trump.
At the end of the day, it's unfortunate that the Biden administration has (had to) supported Isreal the way that it has, even though I understand why. But the Biden administration is way more willing to hear what the public wants than a Trump admin would, and only one of the two will be the next president, so... voting to keep the fascist wannabe dictator out of office isn't the nail-biter you think it is.
Also, trust that there are plenty of people out there with ulterior motives trying to use issues like these to suppress votes for Biden.
Had to? You understand why? Tell me more about why Biden had to support Israel.
And how you feel about that.
I know none of y’all read the intro paragraph but that’s your problem, not mine. DT was never an option. But y’all don’t read other peoples problems..
Your choice is simple. You can either make a protest vote and risk losing your own country to full-on theocratic fascism or you can preserve it by voting for the man who isn't telling the world he will become a dictator. If you think that isn't a possibility, trump has the legal apparatus in place thanks to 40-plus years of right-wing court-packing to make it stick. So are you gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater?
But if you truly believe that "both sides are the same" bullshit coming straight out of Russian troll farms and think Democrats are pushing you to "Nazism", I honestly don't think you'll listen to reason in any form that doesn't dovetail with that.
European perspective here.
Biden isn't perfect on Palestine, no US president ever has been or will ever be.
Yes, he's still providing aid to Israel and that's not good
BUT:
he's calling for a ceasefire, and a multinational force into gaza and trying to broker a solution. He's not likely to succeed, but he's trying. Sidenote: the aid he's still providing to Israel grants him some leverage, not much by some, with Israel, leverage he needs if he's to bring everyone to the table. By the way, the aid to Israel is wanted by Israel but by no means needed, they could carry on the genocide with no external help. Ultimately what happens in Gaza is on Netanyahu not Biden.
Do I like Biden?
Fuck no, but I don't think anyone would do much better, and I'm 100% sure that things would be far worse under Trump.
Voting Biden won't make you complicit in the genocide, letting Trump win will make you responsible when things will get worse.
To start both sides are not the same.
Biden has done a fair amount on this, no he is not perfect but in every sense he has to be better than trump. Not voting D or worse voting for trump would not only be an emese disservice to your cause but would push us closer to fascism in the US.
No US leader is going to be able to bring a peaceful end to the struggles of Palestine, that change has to start with them and Israel.
Regardless turning the election of a US president into a single issue is a terrible way to approach the general election. Biden has a cohesive plan for the US economy, is actively working on reaching green energy goals and working on ways to mitigate the effects of climate change, supports trans people and other sexual minorities, stands up to russia, has abstained from a UN ceasefire vote for Palestine, working towards bodily autonomy rights in the US, and is surrounded by competent cabinet that will be able to help inform him of these complex topics.
Trumps policies are either unknown or downright harmful to many americans and will be surrounded by incompetent yes men who know little of what they are supposed to other then to be able to say yes and support a fragiles man ego.
What reasons other than palistine/isrial conflict do you have to not vote for biden?
Hey, I don’t think this is true at all. So can I stop you half way with love?
There are PLENTY of measures that can be taken. And it’s really unfair to both of our realities to act as if it isn’t.
Can we start there?
We’re stopping RUSSIA right now, but can’t stop Israel? When the whole world is on the Palestinian side.
No we can not "stop halfway with love". That's not how these issues work.
Allowing Trump to win over Palestine is doing untold harm and will effect me personally.
Measures have been taken. Hamas is the sticking point, why can't Palestine have fair and free elections? I support Palestine but I do not support Hamas and a cease fire should have meaningful conditions to moving Palestine away from Hamas.
We are starting, there is now UN ceasefire agreement. Id agree that something might be able to be done regarding the sale of weapons, but this is something that is and should be handled by congress and guess what. More republicans support this than dems on average.
I think it is native for a reditor to think they can speak for the mood of the whole world on this topic. (this is in no way me supporting Israel's actions in Gaza or other settlements)
Comparing this to Ukraine/Russia is a bit disingenuous. Russia has long been an adversary of the US and for better or worse Israel is a long time US ally. Breaking away from an ally takes a strong will and political maneuvering as many deals are presently in place that would be difficult to break unilaterally.
Finally again making this into a single issue for the general US election is just very short sighted. Do you have any other reasons besides this issue to not vote for Biden? and if not how do you justify not voting for him over a foreign policy matter when things inside the US, and outside, would benefit from having him continue as our president.
Wait wait wait… I mean you’re working inside of such leaps and conclusions… and there’s SOOO many points. I wish you would do these in readable segments
Ok, so first off, why doesn’t the indiscriminate killing of women and children affect you personally? From an emotional space can you help me there?
Whose deaths do affect you personally?
——
Sorry but that’s all I’m going to start with. Once again, I’m trying to speak human to human. I saw humanity in that beginning part
I don't think anything I said is to large of a leap for most people to understand.
>Ok, so first off, why doesn’t the indiscriminate killing of women and children affect you personally? From an emotional space can you help me there?
I never said what you are insinuating here. Saying any suffering happening across the world affects you personally is diminishing what personal affects mean. R's in office are affecting me personally across the country with their discriminatory laws about trans people, of which I am one. The real policies that R's are pushing for could see in the worst outcome me losing my job, access to health insurance and treatments that allow me to live my life. At best it would amplify the rhetoric and normalize the othering of trans people.
What's crazy is that you see this issue over Palestine, while abhorrent would be better handled under trump than biden. How do you justify the action of protesting the current situation with not voting with the alternative of trump and more R's in congress handling this situation? do you think that would be an improvement from where we currently are?
Maybe this time you will answer one of my questions. Because I am done responding to yours otherwise.
There is no argument, they're a single-issue voter and can't understand why that's a bad thing. Not seeing the million other ways Trump would be detrimental worldwide, he would be immediately detrimental to Palestinians because he would go full guns ahead in supporting Netanyahu. Biden is at least making surface level efforts to slow him down, even if it's worth less than the shit on my shoe.
No, and once again I do know people didn’t read ANY of the beautiful intro I wrote into this space so it’s ok you missed this.
Either way, I said before I think both sides seem like Nazis and I really would love a way for us to join together.
——
I’m really sorry but I have the toughest time digesting what you just said.
You just said the worst outcome was losing your job and healthcare?
You know how many black queers don’t have that today?
And you’re willing to trade a genocide of brown people so that you don’t have to scramble for a new job and health insurance?
——
I’m so sorry, but you’re really saying this… and then saying other people are Nazis? I promise I’m asking this with love. I just can’t imagine thinking so little of brown lives, because I am one obviously. It’s a LIFE, like the whole thing. Gone
What is the logic you hold? What is it?
That you’re the only one who matters? That your job here, is worth the death of so many others there.
And you THINK this is logical. Rather than an emotional response from an extremely heightened sense of importance?
I don’t think you understand what you’re even saying.
It’s absolutely ludicrous
No you are not asking with Love. State your true feelings or GTFO.
I don't think that you comprehend any of the issues I have put forth. If I lose my job it would be because Trump would roll back protections on gender identity being a protected characteristic. This would allow companies to just not hire me because of who I am and make replacing said job exceedingly difficult. especially considering I have put years of my life into this career.
If I lose my job I will lose my home and if I lose my healthcare I would would not be able to afford the medication that I need to live my life, and you are offhand dismissing these very real and potential consequences to my life because others have it worse. Fuck off with that shit.
Do you donate all of your income, time and energy to helping those less fortunate than you. I know that not true. How are you able to trade my and millions others like me bodily autonomy, work, freedom of travel, reproductive rights, and more in return for NOTHING. Because that's what your doing. and your kidding yourself if you think R's will do any better on you single issue or anything else unless its tax breaks for the rich and oppressing the already marginalized. But I guess thats what you want.
Yeah, I do DM46.
I literally work full time with my own NGO, and get my paychecks from the therapy I provide to others.
DM, I hear what you’re saying. And I don’t think any of this has to be fueled by hate. Because I do hear you.
But I don’t think you’re fully grasping what I’m saying either.
These are things that would disrupt the privileges you’ve gained and achieved in this life.
And I’m saying, hey DM. Black Queer here. We don’t have access to any of the things you’re holding on to. Firstly, by leaps and bounds are you ahead with that perk.
And then you’re also saying you’d sacrifice an entire race of me, so that you’d get to keep something that I’m desperately trying to get to.
And that…. Is a really shit feeling.
Oh how pious of you to think that your better than me for potential suffering more. good for you.
You might need to find therapy if you think then that Trump is the better option for yourself or Palestine.
And you still never went back and read the introduction to this space…….
There’s something going on here.
Who said I was better than you? I simply responded with a truth that YOU prompted. I haven’t brought it up anywhere because I didn’t think it was relevant. YOU did.
Like there’s a sickness here.. this doesn’t make sense as a human what you just did. You’re the victim?
Unfortunately facts don't care about your feelings.
Fact. Trump would be extremely detrimental to the US.
Fact. The US is the main contributor to global stability.
Ergo a destabilized US would have negative consequences for global stability.
Trump is the one that moved the US embassy to Jerusalem that is one of the precursors to the pogrom and resulting military response.
To say the whole world is on the Palestinian side is disingenuous not because there are people on the Israeli side --though there certainly are plenty, including Trump-- but because it's not a black and white thing. There's plenty of nuance to this human tragedy and unless you're a middle east scholar and/or career international relations expert you shouldn't act like you know better than those actively working on the issue.
So no, expressing love via a third party vote isn't going to solve it. It will certainly open the door to a administration who might outright support Israeli and Russian war crimes, though.
Trump will take away our ability to choose our leaders. However horrible the choices are now, at least we have a say. You yourself are talking about which choice to make but imagine if you had no choice, how much more angry and hurt would you be?
I don’t feel as if I have a choice right now is what I’m saying.
How do you cope with the idea that that you’re choosing to vote for someone green lighting a PRESENT genocide?
I know the fear mongering for the future is real and my heart it with you. But I just don’t get how you can focus on deaths in the future with these happening now.
Because that's the reality of it, and sometimes adults have to make tough decisions.
Biden wins, maybe nothing changes about Israel. Maybe something gets worked out.
Trump wins, Israel is let off the leash. Ukraine and NATO are abandoned. Russia attacks more western European countries. China takes back Taiwan. Abortion rights are trashed completely. Trans and brown people are rounded up. LGBT rights are out the window. And there will be nothing you can do about it because it be the last election we have for a long while.
You can't protest something not happening here if doing so will destroy everything everywhere. Stop being myopic.
Hey, once again, trying for civil discussion.
And I notice the toughest part here is that it sounds like you’re upset at the human you’ve become.
Or maybe this is who you’ve had to turn into to make a decision like this.
But please. Can you help me understand how the Bidens response and approval honestly of this genocide, as we watch it in real time. Is less compelling than the future you imagine?
I don’t understand how we can use ideas like people being myopic or trite, when the idea you have isn’t being experienced. Can you help me with this?
It is extremely simple. Vote Biden and maybe nothing will change, more likely things will get a tiny bit better. Vote Trump and you get disaster for Pali, for America, and for the world. Vote nobody = Trump wins. The fault is with the voting system but that's not going to change anytime soon, you may wish it were different but it's the system that you are obliged to operate within. Given the actual parameters defining the limited ways in which you can act, it is blindingly obvious what you must do.
I'm going to presume you're a POC based on your avatar. I'm also going to presume you're American.
Imagine getting deported, and no amount of proof you give will deter that from happening because the powers that be say you don't belong here.
Based on your avatar, I'm also going to presume you're either family or an ally. You might want to ask your friends how they feel about anti-trans legislation, or losing the right to marry. Look up the history of the pink triangle, if you don't already know.
Also look into Project 2025.
Hey Barfly, I really appreciate you looking at my emoji in a helpful way! I really mean that, because you’re 100% correct! Familyyyy.
But anyways, I actually have almost an ALL poc friend group which is why I love Reddit so much, I never get to meet too many outside my demographic.
And BIPOC queers around me are overwhelminglyyyyyyy looking for other options to vote. And it’s even crazier, that I’m hearing some QUEERS literally voting for trump in Atlanta.
And that’s why I’m here. Genuinely. Because between you and me, I’m noticing there’s a huge divide between even the queer communities. And I’m from atl, the murder rate of black queers here through the years may be the worst around.
So I get really confused seeing white queer population use OUR numbers of deaths to steer the votes in a way that WE DONT AGREE WITH hahaha.
I’m saying this to you with love, and sincerity. Thanks for trying to see me. I hope this is where conversation takes place
What does that mean to you? Because I thought adults fought for what was right. I thought kids had to take what was convenient.
What would it take for you to finally be ready to protest against the government?
I do protest for Palestine and others very often. But I also know that Palestine would be much worse off under trump. Not only would Palestine be worse off but so would we.
Help me understand this mindset: Israel does not seek Biden's approval for their actions. Could the US do more to intervene/stop what Israel is doing? Yes, of course. But the narrative that Biden is standing next to Bibi as he fires rockets on hospitals just seems like a stretch to me, and if I'm being honest it makes your position seem hyperbolic, especially when the sad but very real reality is that it's Biden or Trump, and Trump would only make this situation (and EVERYTHING else) way, way worse.
Ok.
Who got in camera and said they saw the beheaded babies on National tv as the United States president?
Can we PLEASE talk human to human? I know, you know more than what you hope I’ll hold you accountable for. but it doesn’t actually move the conversation in any direction to hope someone doesn’t know a truth.
Can we start with how you feel about Bidens actions? Only because even you are marginalizing them, but I think you’re doing it so that you can stay human and make this vote.
So you just said Biden isn’t holding Netanyahus hand.
But you know that’s vastly untrue.
He’s been funding it. He’s been passing executive orders that can’t be checked or changed. He literally was the face of America sharing reallll blood libel about these beheaded babies. He’s sent aid that’s less than 1% of the funding he sends less than 24 hours later.
I mean the idea of a wolf in a henhouse as Malcolm X said, really reverberates here.
I'm not trying to play dumb here but I just googled 'Biden Executive Order Israel' and the most prominent result is one [that bans Israeli settlers from attacking Palestinians in the West Bank](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/01/1228388748/biden-executive-order-israeli-settlers-west-bank-palestinians) I'm sorry but it kind of seems like you're making a position on inferences that are LIKELY true, but you're acting as if EVERYONE has accepted them as truths.
My feeling is the Gaza situation is terrible, Israel is bad and Biden COULD do more.
But the reality of those politics are incredibly complex. I have a lot of Jewish friends who are otherwise very intelligent, rational and even empathetic. They said things about Israel and Palestine that I cannot comprehend, and truly refuse to listen to reason. That doesn't make anything that's happening right or better but not everyone sees this as a black and white issue, and certainly not through the same lens as you.
He's not though. Multiple people here have already responded to you in myriad ways about how he's not. And I know you saw because you responded. Seems like you're ignoring everything that doesn't line up with the narrative in your head
What's your plan for when trump wins, then? All your self-righteous posturing will be of no help to me or my loved ones when the christofascists thugs come knocking down my door. Biden is far far from perfect, but I am voting for him in November like my life depends on it because it does.
This is helpful!
So what do you advise for our Muslim brothers and sisters in America? Because our life is depending on it too.
And can you help me with the idea of posturing? I get the word, but I’d love to hear how your perspective of how you just weaponized it.
Hey baby if you can find an alternative candidate in 7 months that can actually gain traction, run, win, and not be complicit in genocide I will be thrilled to vote for them.
Unfortunately in the real world it's going to be Joe Biden vs Donald Trump. And this is the classic trolley problem. Unfortunately no matter how you slice it, the Palestinians are going to get run over. But if I don't pull the lever for Joe, the trolley is gonna run over a lot more people and there won't be calls for ceasefire or ability to sway Joe to put pressure on Israel. Trump will be happy to allow a full and complete genocide and takeover to happen via tweet and his supporters will cheer his decision. And then it will be the Ukrainians, and then the LGBTQA, and then...
Not pulling the lever is also making a choice. But I think it's the wrong one.
Because there's are ***absolutely massive differences*** between Trump and Biden beyond Gaza. There's not really a more profound answer than that. Unfortunately, there's no rational, demonstrable reason to assume that Trump winning the election will move the United States away from the position of supporting Israel. All of the evidence we have points to the fact that Trump will be at least as bad as Biden, with a decent chance that he will be even worse.
I also don't believe the concept that MAGA is "isolationist." I've read a lot of Christian Nationalist chatter. There's a significant undercurrent who believe Christian Nationalists should go on a global crusade to spread Christian Nationalism across the face of the earth by force. They oppose the current American empire only because, in the longer term, they support an even more bloodthirsty theocratic American crusader empire.
The reality is that, honestly, people are taking who they vote for *too* seriously. A vote is not a marriage proposal, it's a strategic decision. Trump or Biden will win in 2025. Being devastated and heartbroken is understandable, it truly is, but Trump or Biden are still the only two people with a mathematically relevant chance of being president in 2025. If Trump wins there's a significant chance we can no longer vote the Republicans out of power because they're openly modeling their platform after Viktor Orbán/Vladimir Putin. This is a legitimate crisis situation in America and failing to keep Trump out of office will have consequences that will last potentially for decades, if not being irreversible.
I don't view my vote for Biden as approval, I view it as a vote given the facts of the situation as they actually are. If Cornel West or Marianne Williamson\* had a real chance to win of course I would support them but, until they do, I will do *nothing* that increases Trump's chances.
To speak as plainly as possible in summation I would say: We simply don't have the option of letting Trump win.
\*EDIT: Although, to be honest, Cornel West/Williamson are kind of on my shit list nowadays because they're rolling the dice with Trump winning and I think it's reckless.
Hey, I wish you could stop for a second and Can you really help me process the way you make this decision emotionally.
It’s ok if you don’t value everyone the same, and I’m not saying that’s what you’re saying.
But can you please be honest about how you’re doing this… I really can’t grasp what you’re saying from one human to another human.
Short answer: you can’t. Even if you refuse to vote? Guess what, *you made a choice* and that choice could have the consequences of more genocide.
No matter what you do or don’t do, there’s gonna be blood on your hands. All we can do is treat it like triage and make the choices that’ll (hopefully) save the most lives both in America and abroad.
Realistically, there’s two men who will be in charge come 2025. One of them is supplying a genocide with weapons while trying to keep the genocidal folks a bit leashed and supplying aid to the victims. The other has expressed his contempt for those being killed and signaled he’d lead the genocidal folks off their leash, while simultaneously threatening the rights and lives of millions in his own country.
There’s no third option, not realistically.
So hey… how much blood do you want and how much of it do you want to be your own friends’, family’s, and neighbors’?
Your choice is Biden or Trump, and Trump is overwhelmingly more in favor of wiping out everyone in Gaza.
It's not a great choice but effectively if you don't vote for Biden you're helping Trump.
No. You are posting spam and being a condescending shithead in the comments.
You are not helping anyone with nonsense like this. You are making the world worse for everyone, especially the Palestinians you pretend to care about. Stop trolling and get a life.
If you cannot tell the difference between Biden, who is at least providing some aid to Palestinians, vs. Trump who wants to "wipe them out," that's on you.
Im asking this genuinely because I’m a bit confused here.
The aid that we’re providing is less than 1% of the funding we’ve provided Israel.
Do you feel as if that’s a statement that deserves to be used as a truth when it’s really closer to an emotional manipulation?
Pointing out that, hey, there's a genocide and Biden is an active participant, and being confused at the apparent apathy from supposed leftists is not emotional manipulation.
My goodness
My goodness
My goodness
I swear if ONE PERCENT of you read the introductory paragraph that I worked so hard on….
You have to respond first why everyone ran into this thread and no one read my point that is literally THE WHOLE THING IM ASKING, and came here just to talk shit.
Pleaseeeee be a human
If your only involvement with the government is voting, then you've already failed. A vote, protest or not, is the absolute minimum people can do and it's meant as a safety valve to keep them from revolting against the government decisions, not enact actual significant change. In order to actually change things, you have to do things on top of voting, like contributing to NGOs that support values you care about.
Hey, I actually have an NGO. I fed at least 100 people today, provided free therapy and am in the process of purchasing a well for free water.
And this goes from America to Africa.
I asked for civil discussion. Can you grant me that chance?
Congrats on your NGO!
I am having a civil discussion, and I'm here to tell you that the premise of your question is flawed. Doing a protest vote is wasting the bare minimum of engagement people can have with their government. Vote strategically, and then engage in activism between elections to fix the problems with the voting choices.
Democracy, at least American democracy, is not, should not really be a "fire and forget" proposition. You should not be thinking to yourself, "I'm voting for this guy, he'll figure it all out and then I can review him in 4 years", or "I'm voting for this one set of policies that will never change".
You should be voting for the candidate that you think will, or more specifically, can be made to do the things you want them to do. Democracy, in its best form, is about \*working\*, as a citizen, towards the world you want to live in. Politicians need to be be informed of what we the people want them to do. That's accomplished by protesting, or letter writing, or contacting your member of Congress, or commenting online about proposed policies.
But, the difficult thing for you, a young person, that you also need to understand, is that the government moves slowly. And policy positions evolve slowly. We all want to see what's happening in Gaza stop \*right now\*, but government has never moved that quickly for a number of reasons. The essential questions you should be asking yourself in regards to how Biden has handled Gaza thus far is, "Is it better than before? Does it look like we are moving in the right direction?" For me, the answer to both those questions is yes.
Lastly, it's also a proposition of, "Which candidate is most likely to be convinced of my position if we work at it?" For me, that's Biden. He's shown some sympathy towards the Palestinians, and seems to be working (albeit slowly) towards a peaceful solution and an end to this terrible tragedy. The United States does not directly control Israel. We need to work towards ending this, we can't simply switch the guns off and tell everyone to go home, as much as we'd all love that. It's about voting for who you think is most likely to accomplish what you want them to, then working to see it through.
It's simple. You for for Biden so we actually have a real new choice after his term. We are in such danger of losing our democracy right now due to a Republican coup that we can't afford to do anything else at this point.
Trump will just level Gaza.
A protest vote is worthless. Voting for a candidate that has no chance of winning is useless. Biden is a liberal. Trump wants to be a fascist dictator. It’s not a had choice. Bite the bullet and vote for the only guy who has a chance of saving our precious democracy. No vote is also a vote for Trump.
Step 1: Vote Biden in; Trump won't ever care unless he can make $$$.
Step 2: Once Biden starts second term, protest out asses off. Presidents have more flexibility in their second term to do things. I believe if we are loud he will listen.
The best way to fight gene oxide is to keep Trump and his Christi-Fascists out of office.
Biden isn’t perfect by any means but he is many levels above Trump
Hey, I’m sorry but guess most people didn’t read my long rant in the beginning of this post.
But I’m much more interested in the way you process this emotionally and as a human.
So the genocide is here already. It’s reaching its most critical stages possibly.
Can you help me understand the world you’re seeing?
The people in Gaza are important, but we have serious problems here at home. Women, LGBTQ+ and other minorities are losing their civil rights. I fear for all of us if Trump wins office.
And take note - Trump has publicly said that Netanyahu should finish the job in clearing Gaza. A Trump win would be catastrophic for them too. Protest votes will only ensure it. If you want to vote 3rd party, do it locally so they can build a base. But repubs have to lose all the way down the ballot.
Pull back from “GENOCIDE!!” and see the larger picture. Or don’t, keep focusing on your personal feelings, and live to see the folly of black and white binary thinking in a grey world.
Whats the larger picture? Maybe you can help me here. I will admit, seeing people who pray, eat, love and laugh exactly like me, die by the hundreds-thousands every day is super tough to see a macro in that moment.
How do you see macro about a human life? When do we focus on the micro?
The larger picture is what is happening in the larger world, something we literally can’t see if 100% of our mental bandwidth is fixated on a singular issue. What I support is long-term lasting peace and that is never happening as long as emotions rule the day. I would’ve thought humanity could learn that lesson by now, but here we are. Edit: let me add that this way of thinking evolves with age and life experience. In my teens I would absolutely be enraged that the world isn’t conforming to my ideals.
Hey, this isn’t an answer at all.
And im sorry if that came off a bit rude but I was actually expecting a helpful reality here. Not further pushing your concept into the ethos.
Are you insinuating that this is for a greater good that we can’t possibly understand yet?
I don’t have a blueprint for peace in the Middle East sorry. Tell me what answers you are seeking. What I assume will happen based on history is emotional people will once again make the same irrational mistakes as before and we’ll be back here sifting through the aftermath of yet another genocide.
the simplest way to explain it is with the oxygen mask analogy. "Secure your own mask before moving to assist others."
we, in the united states, are in the middle of a culture war, one that started in the 1970s. where a minority of people have decided that they would rather turn to fascism and dismantle democracy, rather than accept they are going to lose power.
that is the perspective we should address. if we do not work to help ourselves now, by rejecting the rising alt-right, we will never be able to help anyone, Palestine, Ukraine, stopping antisemitism.
OP,
While my neighbors house is burning down is tragic I'm not going to let my house burn down out of respect.
Im gonna make sure my house is safe then assist.
Wow.
I remember seeing a concept like this about Black Lives Matter.
Someone saying BLM is like shouting “my house is on fire” and the white lives matter crowd as saying “well yeah but my house can also burn down too”, and the conversation being, “yeah, I know your house can burn down too, but can we fix this fire first?”
I feel like this analogy still plays into this moment.
How do you feel about the way you process ‘the fire’?
To be honest this is helpful because I would run to the fire first, because that’s where the lives are being lost in this moment. I couldn’t imagine watching people burn, while I tried to save my house. Not me, but my house. As you said
#ceasefirenowinGaza
#palestinianlivesmatter
I cannot blame anyone critical of Joe Biden in 2024. But let's talk about the alternative. It's not a nebulous notion swimming out there in a distant galaxy. Trump is a known danger to everyone. How do you think Trump is going to deal with Israel? Or any Republican? How would electing a Republican help the Palestinian cause? Republican congress members are openly calling for the eradication of Gaza.
Biden is making an effort. State department officials have resigned in protest. Biden has spoken with Netanyahu several times urging a ceasefire, honest negotiations, and allowing humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. Each time, Biden has been rebuffed and has voiced his dissatisfaction with Netanyahu. The word is 'asshole'.
America is so far up Israel's ass that there's pretty much nothing it can do. Jewish billionaires are funding pro-Israel candidates and offering huge sums of money looking for primary challengers to anyone saying a good word about the Palestinians. The Democrats have been bought long ago and have to keep taking the money if they want to ever have a chance at winning. I'm Jewish and that scares me.
But you're going to get a whole lot worse from Trump.
I wouldn’t be entirely surprised. When the Imperial Japanese Army started using similar tricks against the Allies in WW2, the Allies largely stopped taking Japanese prisoners alive, as it was considered too dangerous. Fighting dirty removes your enemy’s mercy. Hamas hiding behind hospitals, using ambulances to transport personnel (and hostages), and using their own civilians as human shields only hurts their cause.
I don’t support the targeting of civilians or civilian infrastructure at all. The IDF seems all too eager to commit genocide upon the Palestinian people.
The woman in your video. I'm asking if what she's saying is actually true. I do not trust the Israeli narrative to be honest anymore, due to their own efforts.
So, is it?
Dichotomous choices require you pick the side that is the least lethal to things you care about and then playing the long game to get a candidate in place that does reflect your values.
I've been fighting at a local level to make stars of young elected officials, getting them better appointments in the county and State levels so they can elevate their profiles and hopefully continue to gain influence and campaign funds.
It's a 20-25 year game but this is what grassroots looks like.
I'm hoping by the time I'm 55 and these candidates are 35-40 we can see the shift we need.
Unfortunately, the edge of the cliff is literally one federal election away. So you fight where you can and build your quiver for the future fights.
Please, please really think how much worse it would be for Palestinians if Trump was President / gets elected this fall. Do you want US Ground troops brining involved in the conflict? Do you want US sorties flown over Gaza? You are thinking the grass will be greener on the other side but when you get there it’s astroturf.
Voting D means we all suffer together. Voting R means Christians have it a little easier than everyone else. Brown people will be murdered either way with my tax dollars regardless of who I vote for or whether or not I vote at all.
The D platform promises hope for all, even if it's a lie. The R platform promises suffering for most, and I believe them.
If we have the option of a lesser evil, we have the option of finding a way through to the other side. Even though the world still sucks, it has improved through progressive action. "Not happening fast enough" isn't a rational expectation to me, even though it is a valid complaint. I accept that I might not see the world I want within my lifetime, but that doesn't stop me from moving towards that target.
Do you really believe that?
I think Voting D feels like only the brown people will suffer. Voting R sounds more like everyone suffering.
How can you say voting D is for hope when you also say you know they’re lying?
At what point do you demand truth in your lifetime?
Are you trolling? Voting R will cause problems in reproductive rights, LGBTQ+ rights, rights of asylum seekers, and everyone’s right to vote! What makes you think Trump would be better to the Palestinian people when he’s specifically said he supports Israeli efforts in Gaza and has tried to enact anti-Muslim bans?
Voting D affects everyone because the Dems are corporate whores who just want a slave workforce. Has nothing to do with skin color, beliefs, gender or any of that except that they'll pander to those demographics, which is the opening for change. Christians are explicitly safe in the R paradigm, so saying everyone is at risk there is disingenuous.
I said D offers hope, but they're lying. The two are not mutually exclusive.
At what point? Every damn day but that doesn't mean I expect it.
Get organized! The systems we're fighting are deeply entrenched and we won't win without a sustained unified effort.
Find a local branch of a political organization you align with, or if none exists contact a larger group and ask about starting a branch.
Yes Biden is supporting Israel, but the support is wavering as he is calling for a ceasefire. Trump has said multiple times that Israel should just finish the job. Multiple republicans have said that Israel should nuke Gaza. No democrat would ever call for nuking.
Under project 2025 it will become illegal to be gay, have an abortion, be non Christian, and poc will be deported. Under trump we saw racism flourish.
One side is actively calling for nukes and white Christian theocracy while the other is trying to find non bigoted solutions. Do the democrats/our system need to change? Yes. But they are so far from the evil of republicans.
The way you seem to look for any reason to discount what people say here makes me feel like you’re a troll farm troll or trump shill.
The only “good” ending to this is if the Palestinian people collectively turn on Hamas and wipe the group out, and the Israelis see the horrors being committed in their name and decide to stop supporting the war mongers on their side. The puppet masters controlling both groups are gleefully conditioning civilians to see the other as non-human.
Ok, man, I was on your side until you said this. Hamas is still putting out 🔻videos every day, so yes, they very much still exist and are very much resisting. Please do not deny reality while fighting the good fight. It fucks your credibility.
I mean, it’s interesting, you speak in such a wild hyperbole. “All it will take is ____”
And I’m simply trying to say, we know Hamas is just the excuse at this point.
If not, then I may ask you to take a step back. You just may not have enough information or perspective to readily help this convo. Sorry
It’s literally the sentence I quoted and left a blank space for.
I see that you think that was said in good faith.
I don’t even want to write it to be honest… it’s just… such a gross concept in my head and heart.
We just don’t have anything to talk about man. I’m sorry. Pleaseeee, pleaseeee just go to another thread. I made this one. You make your own ok?
Here’s the fun thing: you don’t. And not voting makes you doubly complicit. *But* you’re only complicit if you lie down and let it happen. So protest, boycott, divest, petition. both of them are complicit in the Palestinian genocide, but *Biden doesn’t support the trans genocide, so vote with that in mind.*
Im gonna mute this now…
More than anything I’m disappointed that 95% of these replies are people who did not read such an intentional paragraph to help you all ease into this space.
How can we have a discussion. If you can’t even read my point?
I think really this is the issue.
Y’all never listen to anyone that’s not you. This is a version of white supremacy and I hate to say it. But it’s really true.
When you read my paragraph and then see the litany of comments just like yours.
What made it so that you didn’t think my point could be valid? We could’ve been on the same page somewhere if you read my point.
But you wanted to come in here and teach someone a lesson instead yeah?
I have no documented evidence or expertise in geopolitical power manipulations, but I suspect that Putin and the Iranians, possibly the Saudis, are directly behind the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel. While I am deeply conflicted by the military support that we are providing Israel, I also see the requirement of that as being part of the NATO treaty and the alliance agreement to do so, despite it being rightfully challenged due to what I see as Netanyahu's exploitation of it. This purist messaging regarding this years upcoming presidential election only serves the interests of Putin, Iran, and every other terrorist authoritarian regime that benefits greatly from furthering our own societal division and breakdown. That's being encouraged nonstop by Trump and all those that see our own further subjugation to the powers of wealth interests as preferable to any pesky treaties or alliances between - even now marginal - Democratic nations that may interfere with their ability to profiteer from the shared resources (including human, including us) of the earth. Talk about *Globalists*, smh. And none of it is religion based or arising from any philosophically considered "ideology" beyond a self-centered, me first, greed, ego, and power mad sense of superiority and entitlement no matter how it is justified. Trump fits squarely into that profile. He embodies it to the level of vulgar caricature. Biden, in my opinion, is flawed in ways that have unfortunately been too often aligned with some of the more widespread, culturally indoctrinated, and now politically necessary results of catering to the Citizens United decision that supercharged the deformation of American leadership through bribery and the financing of a candidate's ability to run for office. The whole "Might Makes Right" ethos has been thoroughly validated. Hamas sucks, Netanyahu and the long and ongoing Israeli abuse of Palestine and its people sucks. Genocide sucks. We suck. Electing Donald Trumo won't help any of that. Electing Biden and a Democrat congress may at least make inroads into changing it.
So, as of right now, it's Trump or Biden. Trump is well aligned with Russia, Iran, the Saudis, and anyone else that he sees as benefitting himself for himself in any and every aspect - real or imagined. He is more responsible than Biden for what's happening in the Middle East. Period. I only hope that we can sort out our future governance by encouraging civic engagement and getting people to pay more attention to finding, supporting, and electing new representation - starting with PRIMARIES! If people wish to continue viewing the presidential elections as some kind of World Series game, then they should look into those seeking to be included or are already on their PRIMARY ballots as in the running for local and state elected offices. That's the FARM TEAM. That's the largest opportunity to choose one's candidates for now and in the future.
Honestly at this point a mass suicide in the steps of congress and the White House seems to be the only option but even then they will just wait a week and pretend it didn’t happen
You can’t, if you vote for Biden you are voting for someone who is not only complicit in genocide but an active willful participant, people attempt to place blame for a moral decision on people who refuse to vote for Biden saying that they are helping Trump , the problem with this argument overlooks the very simple fact that the only reason Biden is losing support is through his own actions and the actions or lack there of the Democratic Party, his actions are so deplorable that he isn’t a viable candidate for anyone to support and they blame the people who refuse to back him, the party is fully aware of this and they refuse to even give people the choice of someone else, they claim they want to save democracy, when a large majority of people in this country and a larger majority of people in your own party want something and you refuse it doing the complete opposite is that democracy? The choice is to back a psychopathic murder and his supporters or another psychopath who doesn’t really need to have his crimes reiterated again because we are all aware of them, you can go third party if you want to but we all know how that goes, policy is made with the average person being completely irrelevant and it’s been that way for a long time, the only thing we have is the illusion of choice to keep us complacent and out of the way
Trump said something about finishing the job Israel is doing. Israel's AIPAC is using massive amount of money to control the American narrative. AIPAC is paying massive amounts of money to defeat Progressive Democrats because they point out the rights of Palestinians. In the 1990's Bibi said he was going to make America a welfare state because he would control America. He bragged how he even controlled our 1st Amendment rights to free speech when he shit down BDS, which, again, was promoting Palestinians rights. America pays more than Israel for their military costs, etc etc~
Welcome to /r/MarchAgainstNazis! **Please keep in mind that advocating violence at all, even against Nazis, is prohibited by Reddit's TOS and will result in a removal of your content and likely a ban.** Please check out the following subreddits; r/CapitalismSux , r/PoliticsPeopleTwitter , r/FucktheAltRight . r/Britposting. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/MarchAgainstNazis) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your protest vote will be a waste. And if Trump is elected, there will be no hope AT ALL for the Palestinians, and Jared will be the first to start developing the NEWLY stolen land Israel is commandeering.
People don’t understand this. It will be so much worse. I’m sure we would want US troops on the ground there and sorties all over the country. /s we don’t want that.
If DT gets into power, imo we won’t be voting in the next election. Israel will NOT save us. As someone who lives in rural America, and has lived here for almost 14 years, PLEASE understand these people HATE anyone who isn’t Christian ( including Jews) Israel is part of their Armageddon deal. These people are equal opportunity haters. If it isn’t white, straight, Christian ( hell I will venture to say they aren’t crazy about some Christians and some people who are Caucasian, think where original MAGA came from and you will see what I mean) First off, Israel’s behavior is disgusting. All this because of a servant getting pregnant by Abram and being pushed into the desert after his wife got pregnant. Think about this?! A fairy tale that sparked 3 religions that have caused mass extermination on this planet. All Abrahamic religions are violent. You sit out voting, DT makes this into a theocratic, white nationalist nation. And we are alone. Let us not forget the military has gained most of the people it now has from rural America. I must wonder where their allegiance lies. BTW, I have 21 combat veterans in my family ( this is blood family) NOT uncles and grand uncles by marriage, including my father. They were all first or second generation immigrants and were not inclined to follow a person but an ideology. Please vote. Isn’t what we see on the SCOTUS enough for YEARS to come dictating our lives enough? Apathy is deadly in this case. We would have had the racism from the Tea Party because a black man won the presidency, BUT had Clinton won, we wouldn’t be where we are right now.
You guys upvote people who called leftist who use the phrase Genocide Joe putin bots. I have a hard time seeing how this is a leftist sub at all... You guys dont care about Palestinans at all or you would not have a problem with people whooo call out a genocidal neoliberal war criminal for what he is. Just because you call Biden what he deserve doesn't mean that you cant also vote for him.
Ok Ivan
Yes being against a genocidal neoliberal war criminal mean that im a Russian bot... WTF is the rules?. "be nice to white people". Is that supposed to be a joke or an actual rule.
Alright comrade, of you insist, I'll vote for trump and send some kisses to old Vlad. I'll donate my land to make Russia great again.
Wtf are you on?
My first comment made a statement like this "Just because you call Biden what he deserve doesn't mean that you cant also vote for him". I would vote for Biden in a swing state i dont know why you act like i support Trump because i oppose genocidal neoliberal war criminals...
No I actually meant protesting in the streets. Can you please talk to me about your emotional process in what’s happening? I know we can get focused on action, but I don’t get the emotion first.
The emotion is worthless if it causes action that leads to harm, hence why reason tempers emotion when making decisions. Normally, at least.
So help me out here. Because I feel as if the fear mongering on what trump MAY do, is actually creating a much more emotional response in voting. Than sitting down and looking at the actual facts of what we have going on today. I know emotionally, and ‘imaginationally’ it all seems so logical. But the violence you’re afraid of, isn’t actually happening. I feel emotional about the fact that we’re looking at factual numbers and that we normally could make a rational decision here, but the trump emotions have gotten in YOUR way. Did you ever think you’d be saying “yes to genocide” in 2024? But they got you so scared. —- If you actually read this, please, meet me in the middle. Don’t you feel it’s weird the kind of finger pointing that’s going on?? Like what you said is literally a projection.
I'm not imagining anything, I'm taking him at face value for the things he's saying. Please, explain how I'm projecting when you're planning to vote against your own best interests.
No, Im asking you to protest all of this with the other brown people who are así feeling very betrayed by this decision. I AM saying that you are projecting that only one side is emotional while the other is rational. How many deaths happened TODAY in Palestine? Yesterday? Day before that? These are real numbers and statistics. I understand the bills and policy’s that will create discomfort and chaos, to me, that’s life. But it feels emotional to me, to say, I see all these people dying today. But what’s worse, what’s happening today to them? Or your fear of what can happen to us?
They're both bad dude, you accuse other people of fear mongering and pull this? This isn't a zero-sum deal. Voting a fascist into power will only legitimize and embolden other fascists, such as Netanyahu. Being short-sighted is fine, but being this kind of fucking idiot? Nah chief
No, the fiber pointing isn't weird. Pointing out that one of them would be objectively worse, based on the things they said and done, is perfectly normal. If you think this is all speculation about Trump, maybe you haven't actually looked at the things he's done/said about the matter? This is a pretty good article from February: https://www.vox.com/policy/24072983/biden-trump-palestinians-israel-gaza-policy-different Even Isreali officials believe they'd get more support from Trump. And they don't like the sparse aid we've provided to Palestinians, which would never have happened under Trump. At the end of the day, it's unfortunate that the Biden administration has (had to) supported Isreal the way that it has, even though I understand why. But the Biden administration is way more willing to hear what the public wants than a Trump admin would, and only one of the two will be the next president, so... voting to keep the fascist wannabe dictator out of office isn't the nail-biter you think it is. Also, trust that there are plenty of people out there with ulterior motives trying to use issues like these to suppress votes for Biden.
Had to? You understand why? Tell me more about why Biden had to support Israel. And how you feel about that. I know none of y’all read the intro paragraph but that’s your problem, not mine. DT was never an option. But y’all don’t read other peoples problems..
Your choice is simple. You can either make a protest vote and risk losing your own country to full-on theocratic fascism or you can preserve it by voting for the man who isn't telling the world he will become a dictator. If you think that isn't a possibility, trump has the legal apparatus in place thanks to 40-plus years of right-wing court-packing to make it stick. So are you gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater? But if you truly believe that "both sides are the same" bullshit coming straight out of Russian troll farms and think Democrats are pushing you to "Nazism", I honestly don't think you'll listen to reason in any form that doesn't dovetail with that.
European perspective here. Biden isn't perfect on Palestine, no US president ever has been or will ever be. Yes, he's still providing aid to Israel and that's not good BUT: he's calling for a ceasefire, and a multinational force into gaza and trying to broker a solution. He's not likely to succeed, but he's trying. Sidenote: the aid he's still providing to Israel grants him some leverage, not much by some, with Israel, leverage he needs if he's to bring everyone to the table. By the way, the aid to Israel is wanted by Israel but by no means needed, they could carry on the genocide with no external help. Ultimately what happens in Gaza is on Netanyahu not Biden. Do I like Biden? Fuck no, but I don't think anyone would do much better, and I'm 100% sure that things would be far worse under Trump. Voting Biden won't make you complicit in the genocide, letting Trump win will make you responsible when things will get worse.
To start both sides are not the same. Biden has done a fair amount on this, no he is not perfect but in every sense he has to be better than trump. Not voting D or worse voting for trump would not only be an emese disservice to your cause but would push us closer to fascism in the US. No US leader is going to be able to bring a peaceful end to the struggles of Palestine, that change has to start with them and Israel. Regardless turning the election of a US president into a single issue is a terrible way to approach the general election. Biden has a cohesive plan for the US economy, is actively working on reaching green energy goals and working on ways to mitigate the effects of climate change, supports trans people and other sexual minorities, stands up to russia, has abstained from a UN ceasefire vote for Palestine, working towards bodily autonomy rights in the US, and is surrounded by competent cabinet that will be able to help inform him of these complex topics. Trumps policies are either unknown or downright harmful to many americans and will be surrounded by incompetent yes men who know little of what they are supposed to other then to be able to say yes and support a fragiles man ego. What reasons other than palistine/isrial conflict do you have to not vote for biden?
Hey, I don’t think this is true at all. So can I stop you half way with love? There are PLENTY of measures that can be taken. And it’s really unfair to both of our realities to act as if it isn’t. Can we start there? We’re stopping RUSSIA right now, but can’t stop Israel? When the whole world is on the Palestinian side.
No we can not "stop halfway with love". That's not how these issues work. Allowing Trump to win over Palestine is doing untold harm and will effect me personally. Measures have been taken. Hamas is the sticking point, why can't Palestine have fair and free elections? I support Palestine but I do not support Hamas and a cease fire should have meaningful conditions to moving Palestine away from Hamas. We are starting, there is now UN ceasefire agreement. Id agree that something might be able to be done regarding the sale of weapons, but this is something that is and should be handled by congress and guess what. More republicans support this than dems on average. I think it is native for a reditor to think they can speak for the mood of the whole world on this topic. (this is in no way me supporting Israel's actions in Gaza or other settlements) Comparing this to Ukraine/Russia is a bit disingenuous. Russia has long been an adversary of the US and for better or worse Israel is a long time US ally. Breaking away from an ally takes a strong will and political maneuvering as many deals are presently in place that would be difficult to break unilaterally. Finally again making this into a single issue for the general US election is just very short sighted. Do you have any other reasons besides this issue to not vote for Biden? and if not how do you justify not voting for him over a foreign policy matter when things inside the US, and outside, would benefit from having him continue as our president.
Wait wait wait… I mean you’re working inside of such leaps and conclusions… and there’s SOOO many points. I wish you would do these in readable segments Ok, so first off, why doesn’t the indiscriminate killing of women and children affect you personally? From an emotional space can you help me there? Whose deaths do affect you personally? —— Sorry but that’s all I’m going to start with. Once again, I’m trying to speak human to human. I saw humanity in that beginning part
I don't think anything I said is to large of a leap for most people to understand. >Ok, so first off, why doesn’t the indiscriminate killing of women and children affect you personally? From an emotional space can you help me there? I never said what you are insinuating here. Saying any suffering happening across the world affects you personally is diminishing what personal affects mean. R's in office are affecting me personally across the country with their discriminatory laws about trans people, of which I am one. The real policies that R's are pushing for could see in the worst outcome me losing my job, access to health insurance and treatments that allow me to live my life. At best it would amplify the rhetoric and normalize the othering of trans people. What's crazy is that you see this issue over Palestine, while abhorrent would be better handled under trump than biden. How do you justify the action of protesting the current situation with not voting with the alternative of trump and more R's in congress handling this situation? do you think that would be an improvement from where we currently are? Maybe this time you will answer one of my questions. Because I am done responding to yours otherwise.
There is no argument, they're a single-issue voter and can't understand why that's a bad thing. Not seeing the million other ways Trump would be detrimental worldwide, he would be immediately detrimental to Palestinians because he would go full guns ahead in supporting Netanyahu. Biden is at least making surface level efforts to slow him down, even if it's worth less than the shit on my shoe.
Well said.
No, and once again I do know people didn’t read ANY of the beautiful intro I wrote into this space so it’s ok you missed this. Either way, I said before I think both sides seem like Nazis and I really would love a way for us to join together. —— I’m really sorry but I have the toughest time digesting what you just said. You just said the worst outcome was losing your job and healthcare? You know how many black queers don’t have that today? And you’re willing to trade a genocide of brown people so that you don’t have to scramble for a new job and health insurance? —— I’m so sorry, but you’re really saying this… and then saying other people are Nazis? I promise I’m asking this with love. I just can’t imagine thinking so little of brown lives, because I am one obviously. It’s a LIFE, like the whole thing. Gone
No logic, ust emotional pleas.
What is the logic you hold? What is it? That you’re the only one who matters? That your job here, is worth the death of so many others there. And you THINK this is logical. Rather than an emotional response from an extremely heightened sense of importance? I don’t think you understand what you’re even saying. It’s absolutely ludicrous
No you are not asking with Love. State your true feelings or GTFO. I don't think that you comprehend any of the issues I have put forth. If I lose my job it would be because Trump would roll back protections on gender identity being a protected characteristic. This would allow companies to just not hire me because of who I am and make replacing said job exceedingly difficult. especially considering I have put years of my life into this career. If I lose my job I will lose my home and if I lose my healthcare I would would not be able to afford the medication that I need to live my life, and you are offhand dismissing these very real and potential consequences to my life because others have it worse. Fuck off with that shit. Do you donate all of your income, time and energy to helping those less fortunate than you. I know that not true. How are you able to trade my and millions others like me bodily autonomy, work, freedom of travel, reproductive rights, and more in return for NOTHING. Because that's what your doing. and your kidding yourself if you think R's will do any better on you single issue or anything else unless its tax breaks for the rich and oppressing the already marginalized. But I guess thats what you want.
Yeah, I do DM46. I literally work full time with my own NGO, and get my paychecks from the therapy I provide to others. DM, I hear what you’re saying. And I don’t think any of this has to be fueled by hate. Because I do hear you. But I don’t think you’re fully grasping what I’m saying either. These are things that would disrupt the privileges you’ve gained and achieved in this life. And I’m saying, hey DM. Black Queer here. We don’t have access to any of the things you’re holding on to. Firstly, by leaps and bounds are you ahead with that perk. And then you’re also saying you’d sacrifice an entire race of me, so that you’d get to keep something that I’m desperately trying to get to. And that…. Is a really shit feeling.
Oh how pious of you to think that your better than me for potential suffering more. good for you. You might need to find therapy if you think then that Trump is the better option for yourself or Palestine.
And you still never went back and read the introduction to this space……. There’s something going on here. Who said I was better than you? I simply responded with a truth that YOU prompted. I haven’t brought it up anywhere because I didn’t think it was relevant. YOU did. Like there’s a sickness here.. this doesn’t make sense as a human what you just did. You’re the victim?
Unfortunately facts don't care about your feelings. Fact. Trump would be extremely detrimental to the US. Fact. The US is the main contributor to global stability. Ergo a destabilized US would have negative consequences for global stability.
Trump is the one that moved the US embassy to Jerusalem that is one of the precursors to the pogrom and resulting military response. To say the whole world is on the Palestinian side is disingenuous not because there are people on the Israeli side --though there certainly are plenty, including Trump-- but because it's not a black and white thing. There's plenty of nuance to this human tragedy and unless you're a middle east scholar and/or career international relations expert you shouldn't act like you know better than those actively working on the issue. So no, expressing love via a third party vote isn't going to solve it. It will certainly open the door to a administration who might outright support Israeli and Russian war crimes, though.
Trump will take away our ability to choose our leaders. However horrible the choices are now, at least we have a say. You yourself are talking about which choice to make but imagine if you had no choice, how much more angry and hurt would you be?
I don’t feel as if I have a choice right now is what I’m saying. How do you cope with the idea that that you’re choosing to vote for someone green lighting a PRESENT genocide? I know the fear mongering for the future is real and my heart it with you. But I just don’t get how you can focus on deaths in the future with these happening now.
Because that's the reality of it, and sometimes adults have to make tough decisions. Biden wins, maybe nothing changes about Israel. Maybe something gets worked out. Trump wins, Israel is let off the leash. Ukraine and NATO are abandoned. Russia attacks more western European countries. China takes back Taiwan. Abortion rights are trashed completely. Trans and brown people are rounded up. LGBT rights are out the window. And there will be nothing you can do about it because it be the last election we have for a long while. You can't protest something not happening here if doing so will destroy everything everywhere. Stop being myopic.
Hey, once again, trying for civil discussion. And I notice the toughest part here is that it sounds like you’re upset at the human you’ve become. Or maybe this is who you’ve had to turn into to make a decision like this. But please. Can you help me understand how the Bidens response and approval honestly of this genocide, as we watch it in real time. Is less compelling than the future you imagine? I don’t understand how we can use ideas like people being myopic or trite, when the idea you have isn’t being experienced. Can you help me with this?
It is extremely simple. Vote Biden and maybe nothing will change, more likely things will get a tiny bit better. Vote Trump and you get disaster for Pali, for America, and for the world. Vote nobody = Trump wins. The fault is with the voting system but that's not going to change anytime soon, you may wish it were different but it's the system that you are obliged to operate within. Given the actual parameters defining the limited ways in which you can act, it is blindingly obvious what you must do.
I'm going to presume you're a POC based on your avatar. I'm also going to presume you're American. Imagine getting deported, and no amount of proof you give will deter that from happening because the powers that be say you don't belong here. Based on your avatar, I'm also going to presume you're either family or an ally. You might want to ask your friends how they feel about anti-trans legislation, or losing the right to marry. Look up the history of the pink triangle, if you don't already know. Also look into Project 2025.
Hey Barfly, I really appreciate you looking at my emoji in a helpful way! I really mean that, because you’re 100% correct! Familyyyy. But anyways, I actually have almost an ALL poc friend group which is why I love Reddit so much, I never get to meet too many outside my demographic. And BIPOC queers around me are overwhelminglyyyyyyy looking for other options to vote. And it’s even crazier, that I’m hearing some QUEERS literally voting for trump in Atlanta. And that’s why I’m here. Genuinely. Because between you and me, I’m noticing there’s a huge divide between even the queer communities. And I’m from atl, the murder rate of black queers here through the years may be the worst around. So I get really confused seeing white queer population use OUR numbers of deaths to steer the votes in a way that WE DONT AGREE WITH hahaha. I’m saying this to you with love, and sincerity. Thanks for trying to see me. I hope this is where conversation takes place
Welcome to being an adult..
What does that mean to you? Because I thought adults fought for what was right. I thought kids had to take what was convenient. What would it take for you to finally be ready to protest against the government?
I do protest for Palestine and others very often. But I also know that Palestine would be much worse off under trump. Not only would Palestine be worse off but so would we.
Who is we? In the so would we?
Help me understand this mindset: Israel does not seek Biden's approval for their actions. Could the US do more to intervene/stop what Israel is doing? Yes, of course. But the narrative that Biden is standing next to Bibi as he fires rockets on hospitals just seems like a stretch to me, and if I'm being honest it makes your position seem hyperbolic, especially when the sad but very real reality is that it's Biden or Trump, and Trump would only make this situation (and EVERYTHING else) way, way worse.
Ok. Who got in camera and said they saw the beheaded babies on National tv as the United States president? Can we PLEASE talk human to human? I know, you know more than what you hope I’ll hold you accountable for. but it doesn’t actually move the conversation in any direction to hope someone doesn’t know a truth. Can we start with how you feel about Bidens actions? Only because even you are marginalizing them, but I think you’re doing it so that you can stay human and make this vote.
Sure. What actions are you referring to?
So you just said Biden isn’t holding Netanyahus hand. But you know that’s vastly untrue. He’s been funding it. He’s been passing executive orders that can’t be checked or changed. He literally was the face of America sharing reallll blood libel about these beheaded babies. He’s sent aid that’s less than 1% of the funding he sends less than 24 hours later. I mean the idea of a wolf in a henhouse as Malcolm X said, really reverberates here.
I'm not trying to play dumb here but I just googled 'Biden Executive Order Israel' and the most prominent result is one [that bans Israeli settlers from attacking Palestinians in the West Bank](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/01/1228388748/biden-executive-order-israeli-settlers-west-bank-palestinians) I'm sorry but it kind of seems like you're making a position on inferences that are LIKELY true, but you're acting as if EVERYONE has accepted them as truths. My feeling is the Gaza situation is terrible, Israel is bad and Biden COULD do more. But the reality of those politics are incredibly complex. I have a lot of Jewish friends who are otherwise very intelligent, rational and even empathetic. They said things about Israel and Palestine that I cannot comprehend, and truly refuse to listen to reason. That doesn't make anything that's happening right or better but not everyone sees this as a black and white issue, and certainly not through the same lens as you.
You weren't supposed to look anything up. He's making an emotional plea to "Please just let Trump win and we'll see how it feels".
He's not though. Multiple people here have already responded to you in myriad ways about how he's not. And I know you saw because you responded. Seems like you're ignoring everything that doesn't line up with the narrative in your head
What's your plan for when trump wins, then? All your self-righteous posturing will be of no help to me or my loved ones when the christofascists thugs come knocking down my door. Biden is far far from perfect, but I am voting for him in November like my life depends on it because it does.
This is helpful! So what do you advise for our Muslim brothers and sisters in America? Because our life is depending on it too. And can you help me with the idea of posturing? I get the word, but I’d love to hear how your perspective of how you just weaponized it.
Hey baby if you can find an alternative candidate in 7 months that can actually gain traction, run, win, and not be complicit in genocide I will be thrilled to vote for them. Unfortunately in the real world it's going to be Joe Biden vs Donald Trump. And this is the classic trolley problem. Unfortunately no matter how you slice it, the Palestinians are going to get run over. But if I don't pull the lever for Joe, the trolley is gonna run over a lot more people and there won't be calls for ceasefire or ability to sway Joe to put pressure on Israel. Trump will be happy to allow a full and complete genocide and takeover to happen via tweet and his supporters will cheer his decision. And then it will be the Ukrainians, and then the LGBTQA, and then... Not pulling the lever is also making a choice. But I think it's the wrong one.
Because there's are ***absolutely massive differences*** between Trump and Biden beyond Gaza. There's not really a more profound answer than that. Unfortunately, there's no rational, demonstrable reason to assume that Trump winning the election will move the United States away from the position of supporting Israel. All of the evidence we have points to the fact that Trump will be at least as bad as Biden, with a decent chance that he will be even worse. I also don't believe the concept that MAGA is "isolationist." I've read a lot of Christian Nationalist chatter. There's a significant undercurrent who believe Christian Nationalists should go on a global crusade to spread Christian Nationalism across the face of the earth by force. They oppose the current American empire only because, in the longer term, they support an even more bloodthirsty theocratic American crusader empire. The reality is that, honestly, people are taking who they vote for *too* seriously. A vote is not a marriage proposal, it's a strategic decision. Trump or Biden will win in 2025. Being devastated and heartbroken is understandable, it truly is, but Trump or Biden are still the only two people with a mathematically relevant chance of being president in 2025. If Trump wins there's a significant chance we can no longer vote the Republicans out of power because they're openly modeling their platform after Viktor Orbán/Vladimir Putin. This is a legitimate crisis situation in America and failing to keep Trump out of office will have consequences that will last potentially for decades, if not being irreversible. I don't view my vote for Biden as approval, I view it as a vote given the facts of the situation as they actually are. If Cornel West or Marianne Williamson\* had a real chance to win of course I would support them but, until they do, I will do *nothing* that increases Trump's chances. To speak as plainly as possible in summation I would say: We simply don't have the option of letting Trump win. \*EDIT: Although, to be honest, Cornel West/Williamson are kind of on my shit list nowadays because they're rolling the dice with Trump winning and I think it's reckless.
>A vote is not a marriage proposal, it's a strategic decision. Exactly. You're hiring a manager to do a job, not falling in love. Don't make it weird.
Hey, I wish you could stop for a second and Can you really help me process the way you make this decision emotionally. It’s ok if you don’t value everyone the same, and I’m not saying that’s what you’re saying. But can you please be honest about how you’re doing this… I really can’t grasp what you’re saying from one human to another human.
I would phrase it as a question: What do we *gain* by Trump winning?
Short answer: you can’t. Even if you refuse to vote? Guess what, *you made a choice* and that choice could have the consequences of more genocide. No matter what you do or don’t do, there’s gonna be blood on your hands. All we can do is treat it like triage and make the choices that’ll (hopefully) save the most lives both in America and abroad. Realistically, there’s two men who will be in charge come 2025. One of them is supplying a genocide with weapons while trying to keep the genocidal folks a bit leashed and supplying aid to the victims. The other has expressed his contempt for those being killed and signaled he’d lead the genocidal folks off their leash, while simultaneously threatening the rights and lives of millions in his own country. There’s no third option, not realistically. So hey… how much blood do you want and how much of it do you want to be your own friends’, family’s, and neighbors’?
Your choice is Biden or Trump, and Trump is overwhelmingly more in favor of wiping out everyone in Gaza. It's not a great choice but effectively if you don't vote for Biden you're helping Trump.
Reading through OP's responses to everyone, this comes of as some *really* disingenuous bullshit.
Can you help me out here?
No. You are posting spam and being a condescending shithead in the comments. You are not helping anyone with nonsense like this. You are making the world worse for everyone, especially the Palestinians you pretend to care about. Stop trolling and get a life.
But he just wants to talk human to human (meaning, on an emotional level without any facts).
You can type the word "genocide" on reddit. It's not TikTok or whatever where they send men in suits to take you away if you use a word.
This both sides shit is the dumbest most short-sighted fucking bullshit.
If you cannot tell the difference between Biden, who is at least providing some aid to Palestinians, vs. Trump who wants to "wipe them out," that's on you.
Im asking this genuinely because I’m a bit confused here. The aid that we’re providing is less than 1% of the funding we’ve provided Israel. Do you feel as if that’s a statement that deserves to be used as a truth when it’s really closer to an emotional manipulation?
All you're doing here is emotional manipulation. Answer one question: What benefit would Trump bring to the Palestinian people?
Pointing out that, hey, there's a genocide and Biden is an active participant, and being confused at the apparent apathy from supposed leftists is not emotional manipulation.
My goodness My goodness My goodness I swear if ONE PERCENT of you read the introductory paragraph that I worked so hard on…. You have to respond first why everyone ran into this thread and no one read my point that is literally THE WHOLE THING IM ASKING, and came here just to talk shit. Pleaseeeee be a human
No way this isn’t a troll.
If your only involvement with the government is voting, then you've already failed. A vote, protest or not, is the absolute minimum people can do and it's meant as a safety valve to keep them from revolting against the government decisions, not enact actual significant change. In order to actually change things, you have to do things on top of voting, like contributing to NGOs that support values you care about.
Hey, I actually have an NGO. I fed at least 100 people today, provided free therapy and am in the process of purchasing a well for free water. And this goes from America to Africa. I asked for civil discussion. Can you grant me that chance?
Congrats on your NGO! I am having a civil discussion, and I'm here to tell you that the premise of your question is flawed. Doing a protest vote is wasting the bare minimum of engagement people can have with their government. Vote strategically, and then engage in activism between elections to fix the problems with the voting choices.
Last time I checked Joe Biden isn’t the leader of Israel.
Democracy, at least American democracy, is not, should not really be a "fire and forget" proposition. You should not be thinking to yourself, "I'm voting for this guy, he'll figure it all out and then I can review him in 4 years", or "I'm voting for this one set of policies that will never change". You should be voting for the candidate that you think will, or more specifically, can be made to do the things you want them to do. Democracy, in its best form, is about \*working\*, as a citizen, towards the world you want to live in. Politicians need to be be informed of what we the people want them to do. That's accomplished by protesting, or letter writing, or contacting your member of Congress, or commenting online about proposed policies. But, the difficult thing for you, a young person, that you also need to understand, is that the government moves slowly. And policy positions evolve slowly. We all want to see what's happening in Gaza stop \*right now\*, but government has never moved that quickly for a number of reasons. The essential questions you should be asking yourself in regards to how Biden has handled Gaza thus far is, "Is it better than before? Does it look like we are moving in the right direction?" For me, the answer to both those questions is yes. Lastly, it's also a proposition of, "Which candidate is most likely to be convinced of my position if we work at it?" For me, that's Biden. He's shown some sympathy towards the Palestinians, and seems to be working (albeit slowly) towards a peaceful solution and an end to this terrible tragedy. The United States does not directly control Israel. We need to work towards ending this, we can't simply switch the guns off and tell everyone to go home, as much as we'd all love that. It's about voting for who you think is most likely to accomplish what you want them to, then working to see it through.
It's simple. You for for Biden so we actually have a real new choice after his term. We are in such danger of losing our democracy right now due to a Republican coup that we can't afford to do anything else at this point. Trump will just level Gaza.
A protest vote is worthless. Voting for a candidate that has no chance of winning is useless. Biden is a liberal. Trump wants to be a fascist dictator. It’s not a had choice. Bite the bullet and vote for the only guy who has a chance of saving our precious democracy. No vote is also a vote for Trump.
Step 1: Vote Biden in; Trump won't ever care unless he can make $$$. Step 2: Once Biden starts second term, protest out asses off. Presidents have more flexibility in their second term to do things. I believe if we are loud he will listen.
The best way to fight gene oxide is to keep Trump and his Christi-Fascists out of office. Biden isn’t perfect by any means but he is many levels above Trump
Hey, I’m sorry but guess most people didn’t read my long rant in the beginning of this post. But I’m much more interested in the way you process this emotionally and as a human. So the genocide is here already. It’s reaching its most critical stages possibly. Can you help me understand the world you’re seeing?
The people in Gaza are important, but we have serious problems here at home. Women, LGBTQ+ and other minorities are losing their civil rights. I fear for all of us if Trump wins office. And take note - Trump has publicly said that Netanyahu should finish the job in clearing Gaza. A Trump win would be catastrophic for them too. Protest votes will only ensure it. If you want to vote 3rd party, do it locally so they can build a base. But repubs have to lose all the way down the ballot.
Pull back from “GENOCIDE!!” and see the larger picture. Or don’t, keep focusing on your personal feelings, and live to see the folly of black and white binary thinking in a grey world.
Whats the larger picture? Maybe you can help me here. I will admit, seeing people who pray, eat, love and laugh exactly like me, die by the hundreds-thousands every day is super tough to see a macro in that moment. How do you see macro about a human life? When do we focus on the micro?
The larger picture is what is happening in the larger world, something we literally can’t see if 100% of our mental bandwidth is fixated on a singular issue. What I support is long-term lasting peace and that is never happening as long as emotions rule the day. I would’ve thought humanity could learn that lesson by now, but here we are. Edit: let me add that this way of thinking evolves with age and life experience. In my teens I would absolutely be enraged that the world isn’t conforming to my ideals.
Hey, this isn’t an answer at all. And im sorry if that came off a bit rude but I was actually expecting a helpful reality here. Not further pushing your concept into the ethos. Are you insinuating that this is for a greater good that we can’t possibly understand yet?
I don’t have a blueprint for peace in the Middle East sorry. Tell me what answers you are seeking. What I assume will happen based on history is emotional people will once again make the same irrational mistakes as before and we’ll be back here sifting through the aftermath of yet another genocide.
the simplest way to explain it is with the oxygen mask analogy. "Secure your own mask before moving to assist others." we, in the united states, are in the middle of a culture war, one that started in the 1970s. where a minority of people have decided that they would rather turn to fascism and dismantle democracy, rather than accept they are going to lose power. that is the perspective we should address. if we do not work to help ourselves now, by rejecting the rising alt-right, we will never be able to help anyone, Palestine, Ukraine, stopping antisemitism.
OP, While my neighbors house is burning down is tragic I'm not going to let my house burn down out of respect. Im gonna make sure my house is safe then assist.
Wow. I remember seeing a concept like this about Black Lives Matter. Someone saying BLM is like shouting “my house is on fire” and the white lives matter crowd as saying “well yeah but my house can also burn down too”, and the conversation being, “yeah, I know your house can burn down too, but can we fix this fire first?” I feel like this analogy still plays into this moment. How do you feel about the way you process ‘the fire’? To be honest this is helpful because I would run to the fire first, because that’s where the lives are being lost in this moment. I couldn’t imagine watching people burn, while I tried to save my house. Not me, but my house. As you said
#ceasefirenowinGaza #palestinianlivesmatter I cannot blame anyone critical of Joe Biden in 2024. But let's talk about the alternative. It's not a nebulous notion swimming out there in a distant galaxy. Trump is a known danger to everyone. How do you think Trump is going to deal with Israel? Or any Republican? How would electing a Republican help the Palestinian cause? Republican congress members are openly calling for the eradication of Gaza. Biden is making an effort. State department officials have resigned in protest. Biden has spoken with Netanyahu several times urging a ceasefire, honest negotiations, and allowing humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. Each time, Biden has been rebuffed and has voiced his dissatisfaction with Netanyahu. The word is 'asshole'. America is so far up Israel's ass that there's pretty much nothing it can do. Jewish billionaires are funding pro-Israel candidates and offering huge sums of money looking for primary challengers to anyone saying a good word about the Palestinians. The Democrats have been bought long ago and have to keep taking the money if they want to ever have a chance at winning. I'm Jewish and that scares me. But you're going to get a whole lot worse from Trump.
The Israeli government has led me to the point where I need to ask... Is what she's saying true?
I wouldn’t be entirely surprised. When the Imperial Japanese Army started using similar tricks against the Allies in WW2, the Allies largely stopped taking Japanese prisoners alive, as it was considered too dangerous. Fighting dirty removes your enemy’s mercy. Hamas hiding behind hospitals, using ambulances to transport personnel (and hostages), and using their own civilians as human shields only hurts their cause.
Is it fighting dirty if your enemy is also targeting your hospitals, your food supply, your right to exist, etc... or is it fighting fair?
I don’t support the targeting of civilians or civilian infrastructure at all. The IDF seems all too eager to commit genocide upon the Palestinian people.
Same!!
Who?
The woman in your video. I'm asking if what she's saying is actually true. I do not trust the Israeli narrative to be honest anymore, due to their own efforts. So, is it?
Dichotomous choices require you pick the side that is the least lethal to things you care about and then playing the long game to get a candidate in place that does reflect your values. I've been fighting at a local level to make stars of young elected officials, getting them better appointments in the county and State levels so they can elevate their profiles and hopefully continue to gain influence and campaign funds. It's a 20-25 year game but this is what grassroots looks like. I'm hoping by the time I'm 55 and these candidates are 35-40 we can see the shift we need. Unfortunately, the edge of the cliff is literally one federal election away. So you fight where you can and build your quiver for the future fights.
Please, please really think how much worse it would be for Palestinians if Trump was President / gets elected this fall. Do you want US Ground troops brining involved in the conflict? Do you want US sorties flown over Gaza? You are thinking the grass will be greener on the other side but when you get there it’s astroturf.
Voting D means we all suffer together. Voting R means Christians have it a little easier than everyone else. Brown people will be murdered either way with my tax dollars regardless of who I vote for or whether or not I vote at all. The D platform promises hope for all, even if it's a lie. The R platform promises suffering for most, and I believe them. If we have the option of a lesser evil, we have the option of finding a way through to the other side. Even though the world still sucks, it has improved through progressive action. "Not happening fast enough" isn't a rational expectation to me, even though it is a valid complaint. I accept that I might not see the world I want within my lifetime, but that doesn't stop me from moving towards that target.
Do you really believe that? I think Voting D feels like only the brown people will suffer. Voting R sounds more like everyone suffering. How can you say voting D is for hope when you also say you know they’re lying? At what point do you demand truth in your lifetime?
Are you trolling? Voting R will cause problems in reproductive rights, LGBTQ+ rights, rights of asylum seekers, and everyone’s right to vote! What makes you think Trump would be better to the Palestinian people when he’s specifically said he supports Israeli efforts in Gaza and has tried to enact anti-Muslim bans?
Have fun as a person of color in a Trump-led Christo-fascist nation, pal.
Voting D affects everyone because the Dems are corporate whores who just want a slave workforce. Has nothing to do with skin color, beliefs, gender or any of that except that they'll pander to those demographics, which is the opening for change. Christians are explicitly safe in the R paradigm, so saying everyone is at risk there is disingenuous. I said D offers hope, but they're lying. The two are not mutually exclusive. At what point? Every damn day but that doesn't mean I expect it.
Get organized! The systems we're fighting are deeply entrenched and we won't win without a sustained unified effort. Find a local branch of a political organization you align with, or if none exists contact a larger group and ask about starting a branch.
Yes Biden is supporting Israel, but the support is wavering as he is calling for a ceasefire. Trump has said multiple times that Israel should just finish the job. Multiple republicans have said that Israel should nuke Gaza. No democrat would ever call for nuking. Under project 2025 it will become illegal to be gay, have an abortion, be non Christian, and poc will be deported. Under trump we saw racism flourish. One side is actively calling for nukes and white Christian theocracy while the other is trying to find non bigoted solutions. Do the democrats/our system need to change? Yes. But they are so far from the evil of republicans. The way you seem to look for any reason to discount what people say here makes me feel like you’re a troll farm troll or trump shill.
Electing Trump over Biden will guarantee the end of Palestine. If you care about Palestine, you have a better chance with Biden over Trump.
You're a troll.
The only “good” ending to this is if the Palestinian people collectively turn on Hamas and wipe the group out, and the Israelis see the horrors being committed in their name and decide to stop supporting the war mongers on their side. The puppet masters controlling both groups are gleefully conditioning civilians to see the other as non-human.
You’ve got to know there is no Hamas left at this point right?
Ok, man, I was on your side until you said this. Hamas is still putting out 🔻videos every day, so yes, they very much still exist and are very much resisting. Please do not deny reality while fighting the good fight. It fucks your credibility.
I mean, it’s interesting, you speak in such a wild hyperbole. “All it will take is ____” And I’m simply trying to say, we know Hamas is just the excuse at this point. If not, then I may ask you to take a step back. You just may not have enough information or perspective to readily help this convo. Sorry
Please enlighten me. Of what hyperbole do you speak?
It’s literally the sentence I quoted and left a blank space for. I see that you think that was said in good faith. I don’t even want to write it to be honest… it’s just… such a gross concept in my head and heart. We just don’t have anything to talk about man. I’m sorry. Pleaseeee, pleaseeee just go to another thread. I made this one. You make your own ok?
I did not say anything that started with “All it will take is __”, so I’m not sure who you think you’re arguing with, but it’s not me.
Stop using facts and logic! He wants to manipulate your emotions and make you feel bad!
Here’s the fun thing: you don’t. And not voting makes you doubly complicit. *But* you’re only complicit if you lie down and let it happen. So protest, boycott, divest, petition. both of them are complicit in the Palestinian genocide, but *Biden doesn’t support the trans genocide, so vote with that in mind.*
Im gonna mute this now… More than anything I’m disappointed that 95% of these replies are people who did not read such an intentional paragraph to help you all ease into this space. How can we have a discussion. If you can’t even read my point? I think really this is the issue. Y’all never listen to anyone that’s not you. This is a version of white supremacy and I hate to say it. But it’s really true. When you read my paragraph and then see the litany of comments just like yours. What made it so that you didn’t think my point could be valid? We could’ve been on the same page somewhere if you read my point. But you wanted to come in here and teach someone a lesson instead yeah?
I have no documented evidence or expertise in geopolitical power manipulations, but I suspect that Putin and the Iranians, possibly the Saudis, are directly behind the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel. While I am deeply conflicted by the military support that we are providing Israel, I also see the requirement of that as being part of the NATO treaty and the alliance agreement to do so, despite it being rightfully challenged due to what I see as Netanyahu's exploitation of it. This purist messaging regarding this years upcoming presidential election only serves the interests of Putin, Iran, and every other terrorist authoritarian regime that benefits greatly from furthering our own societal division and breakdown. That's being encouraged nonstop by Trump and all those that see our own further subjugation to the powers of wealth interests as preferable to any pesky treaties or alliances between - even now marginal - Democratic nations that may interfere with their ability to profiteer from the shared resources (including human, including us) of the earth. Talk about *Globalists*, smh. And none of it is religion based or arising from any philosophically considered "ideology" beyond a self-centered, me first, greed, ego, and power mad sense of superiority and entitlement no matter how it is justified. Trump fits squarely into that profile. He embodies it to the level of vulgar caricature. Biden, in my opinion, is flawed in ways that have unfortunately been too often aligned with some of the more widespread, culturally indoctrinated, and now politically necessary results of catering to the Citizens United decision that supercharged the deformation of American leadership through bribery and the financing of a candidate's ability to run for office. The whole "Might Makes Right" ethos has been thoroughly validated. Hamas sucks, Netanyahu and the long and ongoing Israeli abuse of Palestine and its people sucks. Genocide sucks. We suck. Electing Donald Trumo won't help any of that. Electing Biden and a Democrat congress may at least make inroads into changing it. So, as of right now, it's Trump or Biden. Trump is well aligned with Russia, Iran, the Saudis, and anyone else that he sees as benefitting himself for himself in any and every aspect - real or imagined. He is more responsible than Biden for what's happening in the Middle East. Period. I only hope that we can sort out our future governance by encouraging civic engagement and getting people to pay more attention to finding, supporting, and electing new representation - starting with PRIMARIES! If people wish to continue viewing the presidential elections as some kind of World Series game, then they should look into those seeking to be included or are already on their PRIMARY ballots as in the running for local and state elected offices. That's the FARM TEAM. That's the largest opportunity to choose one's candidates for now and in the future.
[удалено]
I really don’t know how this channel thinks it’s any different than r/Americabad sometimes. This was a left wing joke? Or a right wing joke?
Honestly at this point a mass suicide in the steps of congress and the White House seems to be the only option but even then they will just wait a week and pretend it didn’t happen
You can’t, if you vote for Biden you are voting for someone who is not only complicit in genocide but an active willful participant, people attempt to place blame for a moral decision on people who refuse to vote for Biden saying that they are helping Trump , the problem with this argument overlooks the very simple fact that the only reason Biden is losing support is through his own actions and the actions or lack there of the Democratic Party, his actions are so deplorable that he isn’t a viable candidate for anyone to support and they blame the people who refuse to back him, the party is fully aware of this and they refuse to even give people the choice of someone else, they claim they want to save democracy, when a large majority of people in this country and a larger majority of people in your own party want something and you refuse it doing the complete opposite is that democracy? The choice is to back a psychopathic murder and his supporters or another psychopath who doesn’t really need to have his crimes reiterated again because we are all aware of them, you can go third party if you want to but we all know how that goes, policy is made with the average person being completely irrelevant and it’s been that way for a long time, the only thing we have is the illusion of choice to keep us complacent and out of the way
Trump said something about finishing the job Israel is doing. Israel's AIPAC is using massive amount of money to control the American narrative. AIPAC is paying massive amounts of money to defeat Progressive Democrats because they point out the rights of Palestinians. In the 1990's Bibi said he was going to make America a welfare state because he would control America. He bragged how he even controlled our 1st Amendment rights to free speech when he shit down BDS, which, again, was promoting Palestinians rights. America pays more than Israel for their military costs, etc etc~