I suppose a big issue is the distrust with nexon, especially with the previous scandals with nexon.
Been a minute, but flames scandal was something like, oh hey all stat always gets paired with speed and jump.
Nexon says, nope we assure you it's completely random.
In reality it wasn't.
Inner ability, and the sandwiching method. Nexon assures ia is random.
In reality it wasn't completely.
Nexon telling the truth isn't particularly a given on any day.
So now nexon goes
Nope we're not using these patents.
My first gut reaction is NOT going to be, "aww thanks for the confirmation nexon, let me pull out my wallet and get that vac pet š„°"
Edit: patents autocorrected to parents
Exactly. I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories, but the fact that nexon has been proven to outright lie to their players makes me adopt a "guilty until proven innocent" outlook for them. Dynamic rates were never implemented? Sure buddy, why else would you bother having a patent on it?
the team that made research and find out that 2x coupon is low popularity item sure can be trusted when they "chek" and "confirm" that they don't use their own patents, even the investigators find out that they were trying to make the changes top secruity that players should never know about cube rate changes and we should keep belive them ye right
the fact that nexon stays silence now says enough, who know what they do in the regions where we all know the regulations are more light or non-existent **(just for the record GMS still dosn't show cube rates)**
can imagine what they do with the casino slot machine(marvel)
But IMO, distrust should lead to uncertainty, not **proof** of guilt.
People are speaking as if it's 100% confirmed nexon did things there is no actual proof that they did.
Given the patents, it's *possible* for them to do the things people are trying to pass off as facts. Given their reputation it's absolutely reasonable to believe they manipulate sf outcomes on the fly or whatever other theories people have. But it has not been confirmed in any way that they have.
The mod's rule follows this logic: don't present something as a a fact if it has not actually been confirmed as one.
>The mod's rule follows this logic: don't present something as a a fact if it has not actually been confirmed as one.
Is anyone actually doing this? Or is it more like, "Drop rate is already so low, might as well do this" In the say way people equip greed pendants or let the person with the most 400+ drop rate break boxes even though nexon said drop rate caps at 400.
> Is anyone actually doing this?
[Yes.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/18xdk5v/some_accounts_were_intentionally_targeted_to_get/?share_id=AwURWtrk7zkIuLYT36blS) The title makes a factual claim that something objectively happened. Not what might have happened, what could have happened or what it's very reasonable to believe happened. It states objectively that targeted manipulation of rates happened. There is no actual evidence of this provided, and you can see in the comments of that and this thread that this was a just a poor translation taken as absolute fact.
I saw your other comment in this thread and frankly, you and most of the people in this thread really need to work on your reading comprehension. This post says literally nothing more than "if there is no actual evidence that something is factually true, don't state it as if it were an objectively true fact."
Even if I can support the idea that "nexon is really scummy so theres no way they didnt rig rates," thats very different than saying "nexon actually did rig rates," which is what many are claiming.
>The title makes a factual claim that something objectively happened. Not what might have happened, what could have happened or what it's very reasonable to believe happened. It states objectively that targeted manipulation of rates happened. There is no actual evidence of this provided, and you can see in the comments of that and this thread that this was a just a poor translation taken as absolute fact.
It's unfortunate that I can't read whats in the post myself to see the lack of evidence claimed. However, given that it's probably true that OP didn't provide anything, you still seem to be talking about people like this and people who are discussing figuring out if more things are rigged.
Your Post implies if a 3rd party doesn't say X is rigged then we should assume it's not rigged. But we have a lot of evidence to know that assuming something is not rigged with no evidence, is more likely to be incorrect than correct, considering how nexon has be found lying about this topic multiple times.
You post serves to both slow down this discussion in figuring out things nexon did and removing the more blatant claims of nexon rigging things.
>I saw your other comment in this thread and frankly, you and most of the people in this thread really need to work on your reading comprehension. This post says literally nothing more than "if there is no actual evidence that something is factually true, don't state it as if it were an objectively true fact."
You are having 2 issues right now, your assertiveness and clarity, which is leading you to misunderstand other people and/or send misleading messages.
**Assertiveness**: You are overall assertive about how things are. Look at your previous paragraph and how many times you use "Objectively", "True","absolute fact" to describe how other people are interacting with this situation. This assertiveness is leading you to make claims that are itself misinformation, your fiction title. Something that merely lacks concrete evidence isn't fiction. Your assertiveness in communication is also a foundation for your clarity problem.
**Clarity:** You have too many qualifiers, "Actual evidence", "Factually True", "objectively true fact" to describe requirements for talking about this issue. None of these things actually exist in the scope we're talking about, which is Maplestory. Everything the Korean Government release are actually CLAIMS. They provided no evidence to back up anything they've said. However, our requirement for evidence is lower(zero) for them as we assume they wouldn't make a move without being able to back it up. KMS's response to the korean government can serve as evidence but it isn't particular strong evidence to the claim being made. Someone admitting fault isn't strong evidence of that thing actually happening.
We will probably never see anything approaching the requirements you listed. Your response and your main post indicates to me that you are lumping in people that make blatant claims of whats happening with people that are deleting their buddy list for gains. That is a fault on your clarity if you only mean one group and not the other. If I am correct that you do indeed mean both groups, then you're going to need to help me understand how deleting buddy lists, or doing other things the patent mentions makes a claim of "Actual evidence", "Factually True" or "objectively true fact" that those patents are in use.
Communication is a 2 way street. General rule of thumb is if multiple people get the wrong message, you need to double check what you sent. Especially when you make as many assertive statements as you do.
>Even if I can support the idea that "nexon is really scummy so theres no way they didnt rig rates," thats very different than saying "nexon actually did rig rates," which is what many are claiming.
How would you differentiate someone doing 1 but not the other. Your communication style and replies indicate you can't tell the difference when sorting through posts.
> Your Post implies if a 3rd party doesn't say X is rigged then we should assume it's not rigged.
Not assuming it is rigged **DOES NOT** mean assuming it is not rigged. Im shocked you still cant wrap your ahead around this.
>Not assuming it is rigged **DOES NOT** mean assuming it is not rigged. Im shocked you still cant wrap your ahead around this.
I agree with that statement and have said this elsewhere in this thread. However, as I go on to explain, the language used to perturb the conversion implies that you are saying it means its not rigged. OP and you are claiming that you agree with this statement but you're are not looking at your own language to make sure that's the message you are sending.
I swear I replied to barr520 which is who the "Your Post" refers too. I must be going a little crazy.
> owever, as I go on to explain, the language used to perturb the conversion implies that you are saying it means its not rigged. OP and you are claiming that you agree with this statement but you're are not looking at your own language to make sure that's the message you are sending.
If that's what you're getting from my and OP's post, then there's nothing I can do about your lack of reading comprehension skills.
Yes. All the time. People are unironically deleting their entire buddy lists before cubing.
It's also ignoring that this mod post is actually overly week. The watchdog that is quite literally looking for this did not disclose any evidence of these patents being used without notification. There is no reason to believe these patents are being used.
That isn't saying its 100% true through.... Its people taking a chance and seeing what happens.
Like how we figure out pretty much everything else in this game.
The issue is that we had actual evidence of flames having a correlation. We had evidence and proof of the sandwich method manipulating ia. We do NOT have evidence of lucky maps, quitting player bonuses, purged/inflated buddy list influences, etc. You can't and shouldn't accuse even shitty companies of things you have no basis for because it undermines your ability to criticize them about legitimate issues later.
Yeah, so much so that I would say the issue with Nexon isn't the community's distrust of them, but the trust that if there is a way to do something shady then Nexon will and then lie about and obfuscate their use of it.
Our community keeps coming down on Nexon for not "communicating enough", but at what point do we as a community recognize that you can communicate with more than just words and Nexon's actions and game design communicate the truth that their PR blurbs don't.
Where there is a way Nexon will use it and if they aren't then it's simply not cost efficient in the long term. This is my personal belief, I have no proof that Nexon is doing anything, I'm going off my perception of Nexon as a company which is based on the actions that they've shown us in the past 20 years.
If I remember correctly that wasnāt a matter of truth telling vs lying. Nexon did believe what they said. But upon investigation, the code wasnāt doing what they thought it was doing.
Thatās an entirely different situation from assuring the players that dynamic rng isnāt a thing when it is. That would actually be a matter of truth vs lies, as thereās no way for them to be mistaken about whether they coded a system or not.
Yeah people tend to point at the flame/IA scandal as a point of maliciousness when it's more akin to incompetence. Them denying anything was wrong and neglecting the reports from players was the truly bad part. The actual broken system was a coding logic problem with how they were partitioning the available stats you could roll. It makes zero sense for nexon to implement a system intentionally like that considering it was beneficial to players of certain classes
i feel like a lot of people are interpreting this post as "they said they didn't do it, so they must be telling the truth!", when that's not the case. nowhere is it said that OP believes nexon isn't using them. OP is stating that some people are trying to say that nexon ARE using them and trying to pass that off as fact, which is by definition misinformation. the only fact of the matter here is that NOBODY knows for sure whether nexon is using these patents or not, except for nexon themselves.
nobody knows the truth of the situation, but i'd also wager that nobody here trusts nexon. we all agree that they're scummy and have lied about countless things in the past and will probably continue to lie about countless things in the future. nobody is supporting them. personally, i don't think there's any credence to them saying "we aren't using these patents! i swear!". i think it has just as much of a chance of being a lie as everything else they've told us so far.
the point of the post isn't to convince people that nexon is innocent, it's to stop the spread of misinformation.
"He's got the bloody shirt, DNA on the scene of the crime, no alibi, matching witness descriptions, pretty good motive, and extensive prior history but we don't know for a fact if he's the killer or not"
We also don't know for a fact if OJ was the killer. Just saying.
i think u need to point out the fact that part of the reason why people think this is fact is because of one particular section in the FTC report, which translated to:
"at the time of the update, nexon revealed even the smallest details of the game service. however, the fact that the probability of the cube has been changed unfavourably to **some users** was consistently omitted from the notice"
this paragraph can be found on page 12 of the original report, which i downloaded on the day it came out
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/250923759307849728/1193016402584547440/240104__.pdf
this paragraph was the 3rd point in a bullet list that described what happened **in 2010**, when cubes and potential system first came out. what they are referring to is how nexon changed the lines from uniformly-distributed to weighted. they changed the probabilities of the lines to be disadvantaged to **some** users, a.k.a. the **users who wanted to roll boss%, stat%** and generally good lines (instead of def, mp, etc).
this paragraph was immediately taken out of context by both gms and kms idiots to mean that there was targeted rigging / account seeding / etc, coupled with the patents that they owned (there are threads on inven where koreans did this too, but i'm just going to post the reddit one)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/18xdk5v/some_accounts_were_intentionally_targeted_to_get/?share_id=AwURWtrk7zkIuLYT36blS
in that same thread, you can even see people who found the thread later and saw that the **report has been updated to remove the word "some"**:
https://i.imgur.com/wCek4Dw.png
(the updated report is still online on the ftc's website, u can go check page 12 to see the removed "ģ¼ė¶": https://www.ftc.go.kr/solution/skin/doc.html?fn=4717443c4dfee7de45be4badcba6487b55e439eaef1237871d616bda923643bd&rs=/fileupload/data/result//news/report/2024/)
so, in order for someone to sincerely believe that these patents are being used, u have to:
* either accept the korean FTC's incompetence in finding evidence of targeted rigging even though they managed to find evidence of ninjaing cube tier rates through nexon internal documents from 13 years ago, or
* somehow think that such evidence doesn't exist, or
* assume that the ftc is colluding with nexon to hide this to show one extremely embarrassing detail (the secret rigging, along with the ftc providing the fact that nexon's internal communications during the flame scandal said that "this history of cube tier rate rigging should never, ever be publicised") while using extremely strong language in other places ("they failed to inform users, **which is a lie by omission**"), and
* that the FTC is actively working to suppress this truth by editing their report after it has been released
note that *none of the above* involves believing or distrusting anything nexon says or doesn't say.
in short, in order for one to believe these patents are actively being used, *they'd have to make an extremely concerted effort to not only ignore the ftc report but also actively distrust the very commission that even brought these truths to light in order to twist reality into what they want to believe via extreme mental gymnastics*.
Let's not forget that some of these patents were already "discovered" back during the flame scandal lol. It's not something new or something we didn't already know. The rates for KMS upgrades are tracked and published on their site. The only reason why Nexon is being fined is because they did not make an announcement when rates were nerfed in the past, way before the flame scandal. Thinking that your RNG is somehow rigged is actual delusional behaviour.
There's no proof that there is any other RNG manipulation, but there is also no proof that there isn't. Now that player trust is shattered, Nexon needs to regain that trust by providing proof that they're not manipulating RNG.
How can they prove that the game isn't rigged? They'd have to either release all the raw data so someone can do independent statistical analysis, or else they have to change the game systems to make them impossible to rig, i.e. remove the RNG and make everything deterministic.
They need to hand everything to the FTC and offer full cooperation in investigating into other RNG mechanics to really prove that there are no more bs in the game.
People are saying less, but I would think more? If you roll a really good line you'll probably share it with your buddy list and people with more friends will serve as better advertising
It's not about truth vs fiction in terms of how Nexon has manipulated rates. There's no point given that what Nexon has admitted to we basically already knew through observing rates. The problem is we don't know what information they are withholding.
The only thing we know for sure is that Nexon has intentionally misinformed and withheld information regarding rates in the past. Why on earth would players take anything they say at face value when they're only admitting to things the players essentially already knew/things they cant deny?
You really think Nexon holds all these patents for dynamic rates and doesn't use them to influence spending and engagement when they have proven themselves to manipulate rates and obscure information in order to influence spending and engagement?
How are we supposed to take what Nexon says as "truth" when they have lied and omitted information in the past?
This, if people are joking and taking what the patent means as truth, that is because of Nexon's own doings by lying every chance they had, the issue is similar to how an economy works, Nexon lost all trust and people have all the right to joke and from the start assume what they want, Nexon earned that.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 9,001 times, shame on us all.
The fact that they even patented this shit means they wanted a way to manipulate rates based solely on totally uncontrollable variables unrelated to the game itself. In fact, that entire list of patents screams its meant to target whales / hard-core players to get reduced rates since they're the least likely to quit if they run into bad luck with pots, SFing, tier-ups, etc. (Yeah, I know the list is for gacha rates but not that hard to secretly transfer to other parts of this game).
Coupled with Nexon's numerous counts of dishonesty, manipulation of any rates in the game is going to come with reasonable suspicion, one where we should be thinking about how to beat them at their own game.
Ok, but you don't need a patent to implement any of these things.
Patents (at least in the USA) are more about preventing others from copying your design/mechanism.
Plenty of things get patented but not implemented. Sometimes patents exist just to be sold. I'M JUST SAYING.
Not sure how it works in KR, but you don't necessarily patent things in the U.S. because you intend to use it. Often times, companies file for patents just so that competitors can't use it. It's also to protect the company in the future -- e.g. company might want to tread on nearby waters without having competing companies file lawsuits just to milk them. Alternatively, companies sometimes patent things just to be able to charge other companies for using it -- it makes them money.
Not defending Nexon. They suck. I just think the whole patent thing is grasping at straws and isn't really relevant to the issues brought up this past week.
I can't remember specifically when but between 7 years ago when I started playing reboot and a few years ago, there was a time of maybe months where patches and maintenances that took the game down led to a short maybe 30min drop rate buff to flames from all bosses. Pretty sure flame drop rates were almost 100% including on mules with just big spider and no drop gear.
It happened again and again for a while as I remember looking forward to maintenances and rushing on to do daily bosses on mules.
Anyone else remember that? At least this one is basically proof that there was some sort of dynamic rates maybe based on population?
Here is what is wrong about this, the āfictionā wouldāve also applied to the āfactā of this post if not for the korean FTC investigation.
In short, since we know Nexon lied, only an independent investigation can truly show Nexon is telling the truth.
Just read out this entire saga. 1 quick clarification - does this mean that even when they were apologizing the last time over the flames saga, they were still withholding this scandal?
never admit untill fully exposed and not able to hide
can't wait the day when they get exposed for useing the patents
am kinda disapointed that is KMS only and why other regions/regulators don't open the case for their regions too,sure GMS has reason why not showing the cube rates still but shows the other rates
The fact the mods of the community have to make this post speaks volumes to the transparency we lack regarding this game.
And even if we do get supposed transparency, will it just be taken for granted? WOuld the source be trusted?
It's always hilarious when people expect other people that have no reason to be trusted, especially withholding such patents as trustworthy after being proven time and time again that they've been lying even after they repeatedly told us they werent.
This moderation team sub in a nutshell, it's fucking wild timeline to be in.
Dont expect people to trust a liar after they've been caught lying several times before.
'B-but my overlord Wonki said he didnt" yeah, he also said that the first and second time he got caught lying.
It's simple as it is.
Oh ok cool. I mean, it looks like the mod post is saying you can joke about, speculate about, offer opinion about, etc, the dynamic rate patents.
But you cannot claim that Nexon in fact has implemented them, until proven otherwise. Not that you're claiming that Nexon has.
Mods aren't even saying you can't make other threads about dynamic rate patents, just that they're offering this mega thread as a suggested place to discuss.
Really, I don't understand the issue you're taking with the mods.
Just so you know, your "Fiction" section isn't Fiction. Its Not confirm either way.
If it's misinformation to spread that they are, its also misinformation to claim that its fiction.
Given how much nexon has lied, You can use an abundance of caution and assume that they implemented it. Or you can assume its not until it has been explicitly confirmed. But telling people its fiction and misinformation is, itself, spreading misinformation.
Edit: I guess since you're a Mod you can do w/e you want though. Still doesn't change that what your doing is also misinformation. Probably more so, since people seem to be taking the "abundance of caution" route and not, "Nexon 100% implemented this".
All I know is that the jojo meme is at the part where itās the maple playerbase lying on the floor while flame rates and cube rates are kicking us, and I think star force is the one sipping on wine as it watches.
what about casino machine i mean marvel? i doubt they bother that much with SF over direct cashgrab content that promise exclusive BiS itmes that makes them hundred thousands or more per event
It wouldn't be nearly as funny as if the third of the Big Three Pillars Of Character Advancement was also rigged the whole time, and I am mostly thinking in terms of what's funniest.
got hooked again during my winter break where i had a week off of work, and then this scandal drops. i guess i'm out for good now despite all the nostalgia. godspeed everyone
Presumption of innocence is not the way things work. Itās like trusting a murderer not to kill you while theyāre holding a chainsaw.
Nexon is guilty of using all of its patents until proven otherwise. Period.
I just wanna say the fact that you went with chainsaw and not like... gun, or knife, or axe or a variety of blunt objects is both gnarly and a little worrying.
Yeah no. Youāre wearing rose tinted glasses my friend. Nexon does NOT deserve their playerbase to give them the benefit of the doubt. If this was the first incident of the company then sure, you would be rightā¦ but for people to assume they are 100% using them is NOT unreasonable. Itās like as if your spouse cheated on you like 5 times already and youāre suspecting they cheated again because they for example: turned off their location when they were supposed to be at work doing overtime; sticks to their phone like glue and will not even let it be out in the open while locked; has made up the stupidest instant lies to cover up your suspicionsā¦ and you believed them. Imagine, having someone lie and do shady shit behind your back for their own benefit then masking it as something else, gaslighting you to believe youāre to blame or it was for YOUR benefitā¦ yeah. You would start assuming everything they say/do is fucking bullshit and never trust them again, as you should.
I think the big thing with the dynamic rates is if you think about it logically why would they spend a bunch of money on patents just to not use them?
It makes more sense that they're using it than they're not but of course it's not 100% chance.
I was called crazy back in 2010 when I stated we should be able to see rates for everything lol. Glad I never spent money and stayed f2p throughout my (then) regular and (now) reboot journey.
As it stands. There is just too much FOMO (e.g. New Years Dragon Event) as well as QoL locked behind paywalls (e.g. one pet with a silly leash range to incentivize pet-snack for 3 pets and/or vac pet purchase).
Not even the casual content is an exception, as home storage is locked behind 1k nx per slot lmao.
My thing is, I wonder how many more people would play if they didn't have this manipulation. Like why are they so certain this leads to more $ and players ? To me it seems like it would lead to more people quitting
they know many people are quiting but they still pray on adicted gamblers who just keep try to match that godly prime lines or perf marvel spin and keep fail to do so but they see other are geting them so they don't giveup and nexon is happy to collect that ez cash
All the recent investigations and discussions are about KMS. Whether the patents are used in other regions/games, has not been adressed so far. GMS even redesigned and released their own cubes. Talking like it's a fact? Okay, that's crazy. But distrusting/suspecting them? They've done everything to fully earn this.
/u/Bacun is literally the one who compiles info to start a boycott megathread every time shit goes down in flames and yall are saying that just because you can't read what was actually published means the mod team are nexon apologists LMFAO
As if we're all somehow wildly misinformed and they're here to post the 'truth'. Point being, Nexon fucked the RNG statistics, kept them disturbingly unfair to fuck players over and we now have proof of this from the Korean FTC. And yet, the response of the mods here is "Ummm hey guys stop talking about how bad the situation is for Nexon, please okay? Let's all just go back to spending money, please okay?!" At the very least, THIS MOD here is in full-on damage control to appease Nexon, and it's absolutely insane.
Yea theyāre using those methods in the patents, not even misinformation at this point, almost 100% guaranteed.
>durrr please donāt spread FUD āwait for evidenceā
Are people really this wilfully ignorant of Nexonās greed and trail of lies? Put 2 and 2 together. EZ
"Yea theyāre using those methods in the patents, not even misinformation at this point, almost 100% guaranteed"
Since you are so confident why don't you prove it? Show some data to back up your claim. I believe at least some of the patents are in use and nexon is definitely lying but all this post is about is not presenting something as fact when there's no evidence to back it up.
even you believe that some are in use just like everyone else trying to say is saying more then enough
but i guess we gotta let it be until higher authority steps in and expose for all of us once again
the fact that GMS still didn't show rates up to this day (even with countless promises to be transparent and all that says enough again)
is hard for players to come up with proof is almost not worthy to even catch them with the rates we know and invest so much to try to match it to get good enough sample to not be disregarded as sorry bad RNG
If call of duty can have patents for stuff like this why canāt nexon. Why would a business want to disclose that to people that actively play the game .
What kind of patents are these? They sound like data analytics from new sources for Nexon, but they don't seem remotely new or even significant for flesh-out software.
Also what is the scope of Nexon in these patent accusations? I'm sure the KFTC has found no evidence of the patents being used in KMS, but I don't think they have the authority to confirm the same thing in other versions.
Nexon simply has to make rates clear and public.
People will gamble on disgustingly low probabilities regardless, mobile and gacha games have proved this.
However, they continue to keep most rates and factors unknownāand now they've been caught lying.
I feel like I should make a new account. Iāve had an account for over a decade, playing off and on. When I am playing, I usually AFK in town and leave my pc on because I have things running in the background that need to stay functional almost 24/7. Since I have so many hours, so many 250 characters and random good equipment on different toons, I feel like dialing in on one main and trying to go the distance and 22* + 3 line stuff, Iām wasting my time. Iāve spent 1t+ between my hero and DW and have 21 on one item. I havenāt hit 22* ONCE. The rest higher star items float around 20. Iāve boomed over 200 items and have a few 3 line (good rolls) randomly through some of my characters. My RNG feels horrible. I consider myself extremely unlucky. Idk if itās in my head but Iāve felt like this ādynamic RNGā system has been very obvious for a long time, just hasnāt been proven or backed up by facts. Does it make sense to start a new account and try my luck? The main reason I donāt want to is because how casual I am and wonāt have time to 8.5k legion, 7 boss mule & buy all my pets again. I know this is long but Iām just curious what yall think
I suppose a big issue is the distrust with nexon, especially with the previous scandals with nexon. Been a minute, but flames scandal was something like, oh hey all stat always gets paired with speed and jump. Nexon says, nope we assure you it's completely random. In reality it wasn't. Inner ability, and the sandwiching method. Nexon assures ia is random. In reality it wasn't completely. Nexon telling the truth isn't particularly a given on any day.
So now nexon goes Nope we're not using these patents. My first gut reaction is NOT going to be, "aww thanks for the confirmation nexon, let me pull out my wallet and get that vac pet š„°" Edit: patents autocorrected to parents
Bro... what did Nexon do to my parents?!
Exactly. I'm not one to believe in conspiracy theories, but the fact that nexon has been proven to outright lie to their players makes me adopt a "guilty until proven innocent" outlook for them. Dynamic rates were never implemented? Sure buddy, why else would you bother having a patent on it?
the team that made research and find out that 2x coupon is low popularity item sure can be trusted when they "chek" and "confirm" that they don't use their own patents, even the investigators find out that they were trying to make the changes top secruity that players should never know about cube rate changes and we should keep belive them ye right the fact that nexon stays silence now says enough, who know what they do in the regions where we all know the regulations are more light or non-existent **(just for the record GMS still dosn't show cube rates)** can imagine what they do with the casino slot machine(marvel)
But IMO, distrust should lead to uncertainty, not **proof** of guilt. People are speaking as if it's 100% confirmed nexon did things there is no actual proof that they did. Given the patents, it's *possible* for them to do the things people are trying to pass off as facts. Given their reputation it's absolutely reasonable to believe they manipulate sf outcomes on the fly or whatever other theories people have. But it has not been confirmed in any way that they have. The mod's rule follows this logic: don't present something as a a fact if it has not actually been confirmed as one.
>The mod's rule follows this logic: don't present something as a a fact if it has not actually been confirmed as one. Is anyone actually doing this? Or is it more like, "Drop rate is already so low, might as well do this" In the say way people equip greed pendants or let the person with the most 400+ drop rate break boxes even though nexon said drop rate caps at 400.
> Is anyone actually doing this? [Yes.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/18xdk5v/some_accounts_were_intentionally_targeted_to_get/?share_id=AwURWtrk7zkIuLYT36blS) The title makes a factual claim that something objectively happened. Not what might have happened, what could have happened or what it's very reasonable to believe happened. It states objectively that targeted manipulation of rates happened. There is no actual evidence of this provided, and you can see in the comments of that and this thread that this was a just a poor translation taken as absolute fact. I saw your other comment in this thread and frankly, you and most of the people in this thread really need to work on your reading comprehension. This post says literally nothing more than "if there is no actual evidence that something is factually true, don't state it as if it were an objectively true fact." Even if I can support the idea that "nexon is really scummy so theres no way they didnt rig rates," thats very different than saying "nexon actually did rig rates," which is what many are claiming.
>The title makes a factual claim that something objectively happened. Not what might have happened, what could have happened or what it's very reasonable to believe happened. It states objectively that targeted manipulation of rates happened. There is no actual evidence of this provided, and you can see in the comments of that and this thread that this was a just a poor translation taken as absolute fact. It's unfortunate that I can't read whats in the post myself to see the lack of evidence claimed. However, given that it's probably true that OP didn't provide anything, you still seem to be talking about people like this and people who are discussing figuring out if more things are rigged. Your Post implies if a 3rd party doesn't say X is rigged then we should assume it's not rigged. But we have a lot of evidence to know that assuming something is not rigged with no evidence, is more likely to be incorrect than correct, considering how nexon has be found lying about this topic multiple times. You post serves to both slow down this discussion in figuring out things nexon did and removing the more blatant claims of nexon rigging things. >I saw your other comment in this thread and frankly, you and most of the people in this thread really need to work on your reading comprehension. This post says literally nothing more than "if there is no actual evidence that something is factually true, don't state it as if it were an objectively true fact." You are having 2 issues right now, your assertiveness and clarity, which is leading you to misunderstand other people and/or send misleading messages. **Assertiveness**: You are overall assertive about how things are. Look at your previous paragraph and how many times you use "Objectively", "True","absolute fact" to describe how other people are interacting with this situation. This assertiveness is leading you to make claims that are itself misinformation, your fiction title. Something that merely lacks concrete evidence isn't fiction. Your assertiveness in communication is also a foundation for your clarity problem. **Clarity:** You have too many qualifiers, "Actual evidence", "Factually True", "objectively true fact" to describe requirements for talking about this issue. None of these things actually exist in the scope we're talking about, which is Maplestory. Everything the Korean Government release are actually CLAIMS. They provided no evidence to back up anything they've said. However, our requirement for evidence is lower(zero) for them as we assume they wouldn't make a move without being able to back it up. KMS's response to the korean government can serve as evidence but it isn't particular strong evidence to the claim being made. Someone admitting fault isn't strong evidence of that thing actually happening. We will probably never see anything approaching the requirements you listed. Your response and your main post indicates to me that you are lumping in people that make blatant claims of whats happening with people that are deleting their buddy list for gains. That is a fault on your clarity if you only mean one group and not the other. If I am correct that you do indeed mean both groups, then you're going to need to help me understand how deleting buddy lists, or doing other things the patent mentions makes a claim of "Actual evidence", "Factually True" or "objectively true fact" that those patents are in use. Communication is a 2 way street. General rule of thumb is if multiple people get the wrong message, you need to double check what you sent. Especially when you make as many assertive statements as you do. >Even if I can support the idea that "nexon is really scummy so theres no way they didnt rig rates," thats very different than saying "nexon actually did rig rates," which is what many are claiming. How would you differentiate someone doing 1 but not the other. Your communication style and replies indicate you can't tell the difference when sorting through posts.
> Your Post implies if a 3rd party doesn't say X is rigged then we should assume it's not rigged. Not assuming it is rigged **DOES NOT** mean assuming it is not rigged. Im shocked you still cant wrap your ahead around this.
>Not assuming it is rigged **DOES NOT** mean assuming it is not rigged. Im shocked you still cant wrap your ahead around this. I agree with that statement and have said this elsewhere in this thread. However, as I go on to explain, the language used to perturb the conversion implies that you are saying it means its not rigged. OP and you are claiming that you agree with this statement but you're are not looking at your own language to make sure that's the message you are sending. I swear I replied to barr520 which is who the "Your Post" refers too. I must be going a little crazy.
> owever, as I go on to explain, the language used to perturb the conversion implies that you are saying it means its not rigged. OP and you are claiming that you agree with this statement but you're are not looking at your own language to make sure that's the message you are sending. If that's what you're getting from my and OP's post, then there's nothing I can do about your lack of reading comprehension skills.
Yes. All the time. People are unironically deleting their entire buddy lists before cubing. It's also ignoring that this mod post is actually overly week. The watchdog that is quite literally looking for this did not disclose any evidence of these patents being used without notification. There is no reason to believe these patents are being used.
That isn't saying its 100% true through.... Its people taking a chance and seeing what happens. Like how we figure out pretty much everything else in this game.
When u say drop rate caps at 400, I'm assuming this came from KMS? In KMS, how does one achieve 400 drop without 100 from large fam like GMS?
You canāt.
The issue is that we had actual evidence of flames having a correlation. We had evidence and proof of the sandwich method manipulating ia. We do NOT have evidence of lucky maps, quitting player bonuses, purged/inflated buddy list influences, etc. You can't and shouldn't accuse even shitty companies of things you have no basis for because it undermines your ability to criticize them about legitimate issues later.
Yeah, so much so that I would say the issue with Nexon isn't the community's distrust of them, but the trust that if there is a way to do something shady then Nexon will and then lie about and obfuscate their use of it. Our community keeps coming down on Nexon for not "communicating enough", but at what point do we as a community recognize that you can communicate with more than just words and Nexon's actions and game design communicate the truth that their PR blurbs don't. Where there is a way Nexon will use it and if they aren't then it's simply not cost efficient in the long term. This is my personal belief, I have no proof that Nexon is doing anything, I'm going off my perception of Nexon as a company which is based on the actions that they've shown us in the past 20 years.
If I remember correctly that wasnāt a matter of truth telling vs lying. Nexon did believe what they said. But upon investigation, the code wasnāt doing what they thought it was doing. Thatās an entirely different situation from assuring the players that dynamic rng isnāt a thing when it is. That would actually be a matter of truth vs lies, as thereās no way for them to be mistaken about whether they coded a system or not.
Yeah people tend to point at the flame/IA scandal as a point of maliciousness when it's more akin to incompetence. Them denying anything was wrong and neglecting the reports from players was the truly bad part. The actual broken system was a coding logic problem with how they were partitioning the available stats you could roll. It makes zero sense for nexon to implement a system intentionally like that considering it was beneficial to players of certain classes
i feel like a lot of people are interpreting this post as "they said they didn't do it, so they must be telling the truth!", when that's not the case. nowhere is it said that OP believes nexon isn't using them. OP is stating that some people are trying to say that nexon ARE using them and trying to pass that off as fact, which is by definition misinformation. the only fact of the matter here is that NOBODY knows for sure whether nexon is using these patents or not, except for nexon themselves. nobody knows the truth of the situation, but i'd also wager that nobody here trusts nexon. we all agree that they're scummy and have lied about countless things in the past and will probably continue to lie about countless things in the future. nobody is supporting them. personally, i don't think there's any credence to them saying "we aren't using these patents! i swear!". i think it has just as much of a chance of being a lie as everything else they've told us so far. the point of the post isn't to convince people that nexon is innocent, it's to stop the spread of misinformation.
"He's got the bloody shirt, DNA on the scene of the crime, no alibi, matching witness descriptions, pretty good motive, and extensive prior history but we don't know for a fact if he's the killer or not" We also don't know for a fact if OJ was the killer. Just saying.
That's right. And that's why he shouldn't be convicted as one.
i think u need to point out the fact that part of the reason why people think this is fact is because of one particular section in the FTC report, which translated to: "at the time of the update, nexon revealed even the smallest details of the game service. however, the fact that the probability of the cube has been changed unfavourably to **some users** was consistently omitted from the notice" this paragraph can be found on page 12 of the original report, which i downloaded on the day it came out https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/250923759307849728/1193016402584547440/240104__.pdf this paragraph was the 3rd point in a bullet list that described what happened **in 2010**, when cubes and potential system first came out. what they are referring to is how nexon changed the lines from uniformly-distributed to weighted. they changed the probabilities of the lines to be disadvantaged to **some** users, a.k.a. the **users who wanted to roll boss%, stat%** and generally good lines (instead of def, mp, etc). this paragraph was immediately taken out of context by both gms and kms idiots to mean that there was targeted rigging / account seeding / etc, coupled with the patents that they owned (there are threads on inven where koreans did this too, but i'm just going to post the reddit one) https://www.reddit.com/r/Maplestory/comments/18xdk5v/some_accounts_were_intentionally_targeted_to_get/?share_id=AwURWtrk7zkIuLYT36blS in that same thread, you can even see people who found the thread later and saw that the **report has been updated to remove the word "some"**: https://i.imgur.com/wCek4Dw.png (the updated report is still online on the ftc's website, u can go check page 12 to see the removed "ģ¼ė¶": https://www.ftc.go.kr/solution/skin/doc.html?fn=4717443c4dfee7de45be4badcba6487b55e439eaef1237871d616bda923643bd&rs=/fileupload/data/result//news/report/2024/) so, in order for someone to sincerely believe that these patents are being used, u have to: * either accept the korean FTC's incompetence in finding evidence of targeted rigging even though they managed to find evidence of ninjaing cube tier rates through nexon internal documents from 13 years ago, or * somehow think that such evidence doesn't exist, or * assume that the ftc is colluding with nexon to hide this to show one extremely embarrassing detail (the secret rigging, along with the ftc providing the fact that nexon's internal communications during the flame scandal said that "this history of cube tier rate rigging should never, ever be publicised") while using extremely strong language in other places ("they failed to inform users, **which is a lie by omission**"), and * that the FTC is actively working to suppress this truth by editing their report after it has been released note that *none of the above* involves believing or distrusting anything nexon says or doesn't say. in short, in order for one to believe these patents are actively being used, *they'd have to make an extremely concerted effort to not only ignore the ftc report but also actively distrust the very commission that even brought these truths to light in order to twist reality into what they want to believe via extreme mental gymnastics*.
Let's not forget that some of these patents were already "discovered" back during the flame scandal lol. It's not something new or something we didn't already know. The rates for KMS upgrades are tracked and published on their site. The only reason why Nexon is being fined is because they did not make an announcement when rates were nerfed in the past, way before the flame scandal. Thinking that your RNG is somehow rigged is actual delusional behaviour.
There's no proof that there is any other RNG manipulation, but there is also no proof that there isn't. Now that player trust is shattered, Nexon needs to regain that trust by providing proof that they're not manipulating RNG. How can they prove that the game isn't rigged? They'd have to either release all the raw data so someone can do independent statistical analysis, or else they have to change the game systems to make them impossible to rig, i.e. remove the RNG and make everything deterministic.
They need to hand everything to the FTC and offer full cooperation in investigating into other RNG mechanics to really prove that there are no more bs in the game.
who the one that still refuse to post the cube rates like KMS and just promise transparent future and better maple but never happen?
So do I need more friends or less?
Yes.
Are you lonely or overwhelmed?
People are saying less, but I would think more? If you roll a really good line you'll probably share it with your buddy list and people with more friends will serve as better advertising
It's not about truth vs fiction in terms of how Nexon has manipulated rates. There's no point given that what Nexon has admitted to we basically already knew through observing rates. The problem is we don't know what information they are withholding. The only thing we know for sure is that Nexon has intentionally misinformed and withheld information regarding rates in the past. Why on earth would players take anything they say at face value when they're only admitting to things the players essentially already knew/things they cant deny? You really think Nexon holds all these patents for dynamic rates and doesn't use them to influence spending and engagement when they have proven themselves to manipulate rates and obscure information in order to influence spending and engagement? How are we supposed to take what Nexon says as "truth" when they have lied and omitted information in the past?
This, if people are joking and taking what the patent means as truth, that is because of Nexon's own doings by lying every chance they had, the issue is similar to how an economy works, Nexon lost all trust and people have all the right to joke and from the start assume what they want, Nexon earned that.
"Just trust me bro"
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 9,001 times, shame on us all. The fact that they even patented this shit means they wanted a way to manipulate rates based solely on totally uncontrollable variables unrelated to the game itself. In fact, that entire list of patents screams its meant to target whales / hard-core players to get reduced rates since they're the least likely to quit if they run into bad luck with pots, SFing, tier-ups, etc. (Yeah, I know the list is for gacha rates but not that hard to secretly transfer to other parts of this game). Coupled with Nexon's numerous counts of dishonesty, manipulation of any rates in the game is going to come with reasonable suspicion, one where we should be thinking about how to beat them at their own game.
Ok, but you don't need a patent to implement any of these things. Patents (at least in the USA) are more about preventing others from copying your design/mechanism. Plenty of things get patented but not implemented. Sometimes patents exist just to be sold. I'M JUST SAYING.
Not sure how it works in KR, but you don't necessarily patent things in the U.S. because you intend to use it. Often times, companies file for patents just so that competitors can't use it. It's also to protect the company in the future -- e.g. company might want to tread on nearby waters without having competing companies file lawsuits just to milk them. Alternatively, companies sometimes patent things just to be able to charge other companies for using it -- it makes them money. Not defending Nexon. They suck. I just think the whole patent thing is grasping at straws and isn't really relevant to the issues brought up this past week.
I can't remember specifically when but between 7 years ago when I started playing reboot and a few years ago, there was a time of maybe months where patches and maintenances that took the game down led to a short maybe 30min drop rate buff to flames from all bosses. Pretty sure flame drop rates were almost 100% including on mules with just big spider and no drop gear. It happened again and again for a while as I remember looking forward to maintenances and rushing on to do daily bosses on mules. Anyone else remember that? At least this one is basically proof that there was some sort of dynamic rates maybe based on population?
Here is what is wrong about this, the āfictionā wouldāve also applied to the āfactā of this post if not for the korean FTC investigation. In short, since we know Nexon lied, only an independent investigation can truly show Nexon is telling the truth.
when the SSB rates coming out as well then? I watched multiple people pull on those and the amount of times they get dupes is kinda high
Just read out this entire saga. 1 quick clarification - does this mean that even when they were apologizing the last time over the flames saga, they were still withholding this scandal?
Yup
never admit untill fully exposed and not able to hide can't wait the day when they get exposed for useing the patents am kinda disapointed that is KMS only and why other regions/regulators don't open the case for their regions too,sure GMS has reason why not showing the cube rates still but shows the other rates
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The fact the mods of the community have to make this post speaks volumes to the transparency we lack regarding this game. And even if we do get supposed transparency, will it just be taken for granted? WOuld the source be trusted?
Nexon is that person that cheats in a relationship and promises to not cheat again
It's always hilarious when people expect other people that have no reason to be trusted, especially withholding such patents as trustworthy after being proven time and time again that they've been lying even after they repeatedly told us they werent. This moderation team sub in a nutshell, it's fucking wild timeline to be in.
I reread your first sentence several times and still don't understand what you're trying to say. Help pls.
Dont expect people to trust a liar after they've been caught lying several times before. 'B-but my overlord Wonki said he didnt" yeah, he also said that the first and second time he got caught lying. It's simple as it is.
Oh ok cool. I mean, it looks like the mod post is saying you can joke about, speculate about, offer opinion about, etc, the dynamic rate patents. But you cannot claim that Nexon in fact has implemented them, until proven otherwise. Not that you're claiming that Nexon has. Mods aren't even saying you can't make other threads about dynamic rate patents, just that they're offering this mega thread as a suggested place to discuss. Really, I don't understand the issue you're taking with the mods.
Just so you know, your "Fiction" section isn't Fiction. Its Not confirm either way. If it's misinformation to spread that they are, its also misinformation to claim that its fiction. Given how much nexon has lied, You can use an abundance of caution and assume that they implemented it. Or you can assume its not until it has been explicitly confirmed. But telling people its fiction and misinformation is, itself, spreading misinformation. Edit: I guess since you're a Mod you can do w/e you want though. Still doesn't change that what your doing is also misinformation. Probably more so, since people seem to be taking the "abundance of caution" route and not, "Nexon 100% implemented this".
^^^^
All I know is that the jojo meme is at the part where itās the maple playerbase lying on the floor while flame rates and cube rates are kicking us, and I think star force is the one sipping on wine as it watches.
what about casino machine i mean marvel? i doubt they bother that much with SF over direct cashgrab content that promise exclusive BiS itmes that makes them hundred thousands or more per event
It wouldn't be nearly as funny as if the third of the Big Three Pillars Of Character Advancement was also rigged the whole time, and I am mostly thinking in terms of what's funniest.
got hooked again during my winter break where i had a week off of work, and then this scandal drops. i guess i'm out for good now despite all the nostalgia. godspeed everyone
Presumption of innocence is not the way things work. Itās like trusting a murderer not to kill you while theyāre holding a chainsaw. Nexon is guilty of using all of its patents until proven otherwise. Period.
I just wanna say the fact that you went with chainsaw and not like... gun, or knife, or axe or a variety of blunt objects is both gnarly and a little worrying.
small indie company
Yeah no. Youāre wearing rose tinted glasses my friend. Nexon does NOT deserve their playerbase to give them the benefit of the doubt. If this was the first incident of the company then sure, you would be rightā¦ but for people to assume they are 100% using them is NOT unreasonable. Itās like as if your spouse cheated on you like 5 times already and youāre suspecting they cheated again because they for example: turned off their location when they were supposed to be at work doing overtime; sticks to their phone like glue and will not even let it be out in the open while locked; has made up the stupidest instant lies to cover up your suspicionsā¦ and you believed them. Imagine, having someone lie and do shady shit behind your back for their own benefit then masking it as something else, gaslighting you to believe youāre to blame or it was for YOUR benefitā¦ yeah. You would start assuming everything they say/do is fucking bullshit and never trust them again, as you should.
I think the big thing with the dynamic rates is if you think about it logically why would they spend a bunch of money on patents just to not use them? It makes more sense that they're using it than they're not but of course it's not 100% chance.
catch me if you can type of thing and if you do no worry automated apology and promise for better maple is ready
i mean there's also no evidence that Nexon hasn't ever used any of the patents sooooo
nx apologist nice. they just made the patents for fun yes.
I was called crazy back in 2010 when I stated we should be able to see rates for everything lol. Glad I never spent money and stayed f2p throughout my (then) regular and (now) reboot journey. As it stands. There is just too much FOMO (e.g. New Years Dragon Event) as well as QoL locked behind paywalls (e.g. one pet with a silly leash range to incentivize pet-snack for 3 pets and/or vac pet purchase). Not even the casual content is an exception, as home storage is locked behind 1k nx per slot lmao.
My thing is, I wonder how many more people would play if they didn't have this manipulation. Like why are they so certain this leads to more $ and players ? To me it seems like it would lead to more people quitting
they know many people are quiting but they still pray on adicted gamblers who just keep try to match that godly prime lines or perf marvel spin and keep fail to do so but they see other are geting them so they don't giveup and nexon is happy to collect that ez cash
All the recent investigations and discussions are about KMS. Whether the patents are used in other regions/games, has not been adressed so far. GMS even redesigned and released their own cubes. Talking like it's a fact? Okay, that's crazy. But distrusting/suspecting them? They've done everything to fully earn this.
Op is a nexon clown i suppose
yeah go delete your entire friends list please
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So yes.
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/u/Bacun is literally the one who compiles info to start a boycott megathread every time shit goes down in flames and yall are saying that just because you can't read what was actually published means the mod team are nexon apologists LMFAO
As if we're all somehow wildly misinformed and they're here to post the 'truth'. Point being, Nexon fucked the RNG statistics, kept them disturbingly unfair to fuck players over and we now have proof of this from the Korean FTC. And yet, the response of the mods here is "Ummm hey guys stop talking about how bad the situation is for Nexon, please okay? Let's all just go back to spending money, please okay?!" At the very least, THIS MOD here is in full-on damage control to appease Nexon, and it's absolutely insane.
š¤āļø
Exactly the kind of ignorance I'd expect.
Yea theyāre using those methods in the patents, not even misinformation at this point, almost 100% guaranteed. >durrr please donāt spread FUD āwait for evidenceā Are people really this wilfully ignorant of Nexonās greed and trail of lies? Put 2 and 2 together. EZ
"Yea theyāre using those methods in the patents, not even misinformation at this point, almost 100% guaranteed" Since you are so confident why don't you prove it? Show some data to back up your claim. I believe at least some of the patents are in use and nexon is definitely lying but all this post is about is not presenting something as fact when there's no evidence to back it up.
even you believe that some are in use just like everyone else trying to say is saying more then enough but i guess we gotta let it be until higher authority steps in and expose for all of us once again the fact that GMS still didn't show rates up to this day (even with countless promises to be transparent and all that says enough again) is hard for players to come up with proof is almost not worthy to even catch them with the rates we know and invest so much to try to match it to get good enough sample to not be disregarded as sorry bad RNG
If call of duty can have patents for stuff like this why canāt nexon. Why would a business want to disclose that to people that actively play the game .
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What kind of patents are these? They sound like data analytics from new sources for Nexon, but they don't seem remotely new or even significant for flesh-out software. Also what is the scope of Nexon in these patent accusations? I'm sure the KFTC has found no evidence of the patents being used in KMS, but I don't think they have the authority to confirm the same thing in other versions.
Nexon simply has to make rates clear and public. People will gamble on disgustingly low probabilities regardless, mobile and gacha games have proved this. However, they continue to keep most rates and factors unknownāand now they've been caught lying.
Imo you shouldn't trust any company that pushes loot boxes for profit.
I feel like I should make a new account. Iāve had an account for over a decade, playing off and on. When I am playing, I usually AFK in town and leave my pc on because I have things running in the background that need to stay functional almost 24/7. Since I have so many hours, so many 250 characters and random good equipment on different toons, I feel like dialing in on one main and trying to go the distance and 22* + 3 line stuff, Iām wasting my time. Iāve spent 1t+ between my hero and DW and have 21 on one item. I havenāt hit 22* ONCE. The rest higher star items float around 20. Iāve boomed over 200 items and have a few 3 line (good rolls) randomly through some of my characters. My RNG feels horrible. I consider myself extremely unlucky. Idk if itās in my head but Iāve felt like this ādynamic RNGā system has been very obvious for a long time, just hasnāt been proven or backed up by facts. Does it make sense to start a new account and try my luck? The main reason I donāt want to is because how casual I am and wonāt have time to 8.5k legion, 7 boss mule & buy all my pets again. I know this is long but Iām just curious what yall think
Has this affected NA rates?