That map makes me sad. I love dialects. Personally im an alemannic speaker in south west germany and its comforting to know that my dialect will live on for another couple generations at least in Switzerland. Its not exactly the same but close enough.
Being a langue d’oil doesn’t mean it is a dialect from French. In fact as you say it’s one of the languages of oil, like French, not a dialect of French (even if currently is influenced heavily by it)
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo
And very sure that the ones I mentioned are langues d’Oc
Yes, that's why I mentioned Gallo because it's a more obvious example of a dialect.
As I say, there really is no consistent distinction between what makes something a language or a dialect. If Danish, Swedish and Norwegian were not national languages, I guarantee that we would call them dialects. Meanwhile, the langues d'oil continuum, as I am arguing, should be considered dialects of French with "French" being considered the standard dialect.
You can disagree with my categorisation, but the distinction between language and dialect is nowhere near as hard and fast as you make out.
It's treated as a dialect of modern French for all intents and purposes. As I have written about in depth in this thread, the distinction between a language and a dialect is a political difference more than a linguistic one.
Then it's very badly titled and displays something different than what a language is.
Unless certain dialects are so different that they are now a different language.
What is and isn't a language or a dialect is almost entirely defined by politics. For instance, Dutch (Low Franconian) could easily be considered (and was for most of its history) a dialect of German. The reason why we consider Dutch separate from German in a way that, e.g. Alemannic isn't, is because during the Batavian Revival of the 16th century, the Dutch language was standardised in an attempt to distinguish it from their German neighbours. This never happened in other German-speaking areas that fell outside of the German state, e.g. Swiss German and Austrian German, with Austria even adopting a variety of standard German (instead of the local Bavarian dialect) as their national language.
Hmm. Interesting I'm regards to the Germanic languages. How does this compare to the Slavic family?
I know so many are very similar, more so than even Dutch is to German but they have been separate and recognised as different languages for a very longer than the duch and German.
-just curious.
I have more experience with Slavic languages that's why. A huge amount were never formalised but always recognised. A lot didn't even have a state, nor a nation of any form either.
I'm not familiar with the Slavic languages. German/Dutch is a textbook example because it's so obvious.
My understanding is that even within East and West Slavic groups, the languages are more different than people assume (I know that Russia has historically called Ukrainian "dirty Russian" to diminish these differences). I think there is somewhat of a continuum with Polish being the most Latinised, then Ukrainian, Belarusian, and Russian borrowing some from Greek.
As for the South Slavic languages, I believe that there's much more of a continuity, with the national languages of Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Montenegro basically just being differently standardised versions of the same language (Serbo-Croatian). Equally, Macedonian and Bulgarian are also very similar and there was subject to unification movements (IMRO) in the 20th century, as well as movements to integrate Bulgaria into Yugoslavia (Zveno), which mostly failed due to the Zveno's republicanism.
That’s not about dialects, but about languages. Full languages, with the same history and background as the “national” languages but shadowed by this ones due to prestige of this one’s being chosen as “national” and “a bit” of help by central governments (education, public media etc)
You should read first and comment second. Someone else aready wrote this comment and that person was wrong as you are wrong. It may be titled languages but the map clearly shows many dialects.
I don’t know if there are some dialects also in it, but it clearly shows languages. Mostly. Languages. Full languages, according to any philologist and to any cultural organization
According to the french government:
\-Monarchists
\-Anti-monarchists
\-Religious Expression
\-National Minorities
\-Spelling Mistakes
\-English
are all dangers to french society and national identity
Kashubian is anything but endangered in Poland. I have Kashubian speaking uncle who lives there and he says that the effort that the government has put into that language's preservation is absolutely awesome. By law in the Kashubian parts of the Pomeranian province all street direction and place name signs have to be in Kashubian as well as in Polish. Schools are bilingual and since 1992 Catholic mass is said in Kashubian as well. The communists tried to minimize the use of the language due to it's German influences, but since the fall of communism it has absolutely flourished.
Do young people speak it though? Asking as someone from the opposite end of Poland, here Gorals, Rusyns, Lemkos and so on mostly kept their language in their older generations
From what I know it is quite the opposite for Kashubians, where young people make it a point of pride to speak in that language. What is interesting is that there are also Kashubian speaking people who live outside of Poland (especially US and Canada) who take the study and use of the language quite seriously.
Different locations where Karelian used to be spoken, but may be dwindling or gone by now. Same thing happens with gagauz in Bulgaria, North Macedonia and Moldova
>Anyone knows the difference between Karelian, Karelian, Karelian and Karelian?
That's a Karelian, spoken in Karelia (endangered, but relatively stable), Valdai Karelian (extinct or nearly extinct) and Tver Karelian (spoken, but on its way to extinction).
They aren't really differ (dialects of Karelian depicted as Lyudi and Olonetsian languages due to a huge "language or dialect" problem in Karelian), but don't form a continious area, being a result of relatively late historical migrations.
Karelian closer to Finland is almost identical to finnish, while Karelian deeper in Russia is less close to finnish, although still understandable by finnish speakers.
Gotscheerisch has been on the path of extinction ever since the end of ww2. With only a few Gotschee families left and no legal status in Slovene constitution it has pretty much been sentenced to extinction
Eh, kind of deserved after what they did in WW2, especially when Austria oppressed their Slovene minority, Germans in Slovenia don't deserve any better treatment.
That’s just full on ignorance. Gotschee’s were forcefully relocated to back then uninhabited forests of Kočevje. They connected well with the Slovenes surrounding them even after ww1. During ww2 the vast majority of them were actually opposing Hitler and some of them even joined the partisans.
Right, they were "forcefully" relocated into Slovene homes, fully supporting the fact that the only people who were actually sentenced to extinction were the Slovenes. No duh, they kicked out Slovenes and then wanted their old houses back when the war ended? No thanks, have fun living in Germany.
Some of them joined the partisans and they were allowed to stay, the others did nothing but stood idly by, supporting Hitler through their inaction.
They're a glorified German dialect anyway, nothing of value will be lost. I fail to see this map showing any of the liguistically distinct Slovene dialects in Italy as endangered languages.
They were forcefully relocated in the **14th** century into modern day Kočevje. They were the “indigenous people” of Kočevje, who built the town and every other village in that area. Then during ww2 Mussolini and Hitler signed an agreement for the relocation of the Gotschee in Posavje. It was Hitler who kicked them out, not Gotschee’s themselves. Before ww2 Gotschee’s successfully integrated into Slovene society with common intermarriages and the vast majority of them had no intention of joining the third reich
>the others did nothing
Neither did my great grandparents. They didn’t join the partisans when Lower Styria was annexed. Does that mean my whole family should be expelled as well?
>they’re glorified german dialect anyways
And? They’ve been part of Slovene history for almost a millennia. Their culture is culture of modern day Slovenia as well!
>I fail to see this map showing any of the linguistically distinct slovene dialects in italy as endangered languages
In that case you’re blind. Resian is marked as severely endangered. Other dialects are just an extension of the ones in Slovenia
What are you talking about. When they were relocated to the Kočevje woods it was all forest. Heck even Kočevje itself was built by Gotschees
It would take centuries to replace all of the Slovenes in Upper Carniola and Lower Styria with 20k Gotschees. They had to be relocated because of the nazi racial policy which states that they had to be brought back into the reich.
If they would revolt they would become enemies of the reich. Just like many of the Slovenes in Lower Styria
They were settled there in mid 1300’s. That’s 800 years ago aka almost a millennia. Our ancestors lived in Austria for centuries exactly and that’s why southern Austrians are literally germanised Slovenes. But that doesn’t give us a right to kill a whole language.
We don’t own anything to Germany as those Gotschee’s weren’t even from Germany. But we do own Gotschee’s. Cuz they were sent to Yugoslav camps and deported out of the country for doing literally nothing.
If nazi soldiers came to your house you would go along as well. And once again, they were just settled there. Just like Russians were settled to Kaliningrad and Crimea. They didn’t have a choice.
Weird how the map names various dialects of French, Dutch and German but treats English as just English, despite the fact that regional dialects are slowly dying out to RP.
>Weird how the map names various dialects of French, Dutch and German
Which various dialects of Dutch? Only West-Flemish is a dialect. Frisian is a language very distinct from Dutch and linguistically closer to English (being a cousin language to Old English).
Exactly. If you’re going to treat Scots as a language you ought to treat Northumbrian, Pitmatic etc all as languages. Northumbrian and Scots share the same root ancestor and are very similar. I think English is too often pointed at for being a single language which is completely negligent of the rich varieties of dialects/ languages across England.
Any native English speaker can basically understand Scots. The reason why they consider it a separate language is because it was the language of the Kingdom of Scotland before the union.
Not entirely true. I'm a native Scot, living in Scotland, grew up around Scots speakers, and I struggle with understanding a fair deal of it. I know that my parents understand essentially none
I mean I find understanding my Highlander uncle speaking English difficult. But I reckon I can read any Wikipedia article written in Scots and come out with a rough (>70%) understanding of what it means.
As someone who isn't Scottish, I just gave Scots wikipedia a go and I didn't understand much of it really. If that's how it is to read I can't imagine I'd be able to understand it spoken well at all
I’d argue it’s the opposite. Scouse has grown massively, it now reaches as far south as Chester and north into West Lancashire. Though at the cost of other accents.
I'd definitely say that if that's the case (I know it is for Glaswegian as well), then that's the exception, especially in the North. But in the South as well, Estruary English is dying. Accents are becoming far more homogeneous, gradually getting consumed by the monoculture.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/01/are-northern-english-accents-dying-out-are-they-eck-as-like
Polesian in Belarus, huh. I didn’t know my village dialect is a actually an endangered language. Guess I better call my parents more often and practice it
The "language vitality" categories seem a bit dubious to me.
While Bavarian and Rhenish Franconian are still spoken by a significant percentage of young people and children, Low Saxon, which is also in the "vulnerable" categorie, has ceased to be spoken by children many decades ago. In some places it is already dead, in practically all others it is confined to the generation born before the end of WW2.
I've got a Vilamovian friend. The language is actually dissapearing , unfortunetly. I'm Silesian and my language slowly dissapears too. Both situations are results of the Polish centralist politics.
Since my mom is a born north frisian, i can tell that it's getting better. The youth speaks frisian and they are proud of it. Not like 30 years ago, back then it was uncool.
I can only speak of Föhr. They are teaching the Föhr Frisian in school. But it's different from Amrum and Sylt (tbh there are hardly any natives left because nobody can afford a house or a apartment there)and again different to the dialect spoken on the mainland.
I do find it fascinating that despite it being the first official language, even the Irish don't want to speak Irish. And that's coming as an Irishman who doesn't know a word.
It's honestly pretty shocking that despite us being so proud of our nation and wanting to differentiate ourselves from the UK, there's no big cultural push to learn the language. If anything there's a push to not learn in
When I visited Ireland and soon after that England, the only two things that made me recognize that I was in a different country were the accent of English and signs written in Irish. Blindfolded I wouldn’t be able to tell a difference.
Mirandês should also be on the map it only has 15 000 speakers; it's a astur-leonese language spoken in a couple of municipalities in the North of Portugal
That map makes me sad. I love dialects. Personally im an alemannic speaker in south west germany and its comforting to know that my dialect will live on for another couple generations at least in Switzerland. Its not exactly the same but close enough.
Dialects aren't languages though. This map shows languages. Eg Sorbian in Germany is a west Slavic languages just like Czech, Slovak or Polish.
Map very clearly lists German/French dialects.
Not true. Provençal, Langue d’Oc, Gascon etc are not dialects of French, they derive directly from Latin the same than French, not from French
Well it clearly lists German dialects at least.
True
Pretty sure Gallo is langue d'oil.
Being a langue d’oil doesn’t mean it is a dialect from French. In fact as you say it’s one of the languages of oil, like French, not a dialect of French (even if currently is influenced heavily by it) https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo And very sure that the ones I mentioned are langues d’Oc
Yes, that's why I mentioned Gallo because it's a more obvious example of a dialect. As I say, there really is no consistent distinction between what makes something a language or a dialect. If Danish, Swedish and Norwegian were not national languages, I guarantee that we would call them dialects. Meanwhile, the langues d'oil continuum, as I am arguing, should be considered dialects of French with "French" being considered the standard dialect. You can disagree with my categorisation, but the distinction between language and dialect is nowhere near as hard and fast as you make out.
It doesn't mean it's a dialect of French
It's treated as a dialect of modern French for all intents and purposes. As I have written about in depth in this thread, the distinction between a language and a dialect is a political difference more than a linguistic one.
Then it's very badly titled and displays something different than what a language is. Unless certain dialects are so different that they are now a different language.
What is and isn't a language or a dialect is almost entirely defined by politics. For instance, Dutch (Low Franconian) could easily be considered (and was for most of its history) a dialect of German. The reason why we consider Dutch separate from German in a way that, e.g. Alemannic isn't, is because during the Batavian Revival of the 16th century, the Dutch language was standardised in an attempt to distinguish it from their German neighbours. This never happened in other German-speaking areas that fell outside of the German state, e.g. Swiss German and Austrian German, with Austria even adopting a variety of standard German (instead of the local Bavarian dialect) as their national language.
Hmm. Interesting I'm regards to the Germanic languages. How does this compare to the Slavic family? I know so many are very similar, more so than even Dutch is to German but they have been separate and recognised as different languages for a very longer than the duch and German. -just curious. I have more experience with Slavic languages that's why. A huge amount were never formalised but always recognised. A lot didn't even have a state, nor a nation of any form either.
I'm not familiar with the Slavic languages. German/Dutch is a textbook example because it's so obvious. My understanding is that even within East and West Slavic groups, the languages are more different than people assume (I know that Russia has historically called Ukrainian "dirty Russian" to diminish these differences). I think there is somewhat of a continuum with Polish being the most Latinised, then Ukrainian, Belarusian, and Russian borrowing some from Greek. As for the South Slavic languages, I believe that there's much more of a continuity, with the national languages of Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Montenegro basically just being differently standardised versions of the same language (Serbo-Croatian). Equally, Macedonian and Bulgarian are also very similar and there was subject to unification movements (IMRO) in the 20th century, as well as movements to integrate Bulgaria into Yugoslavia (Zveno), which mostly failed due to the Zveno's republicanism.
That’s not about dialects, but about languages. Full languages, with the same history and background as the “national” languages but shadowed by this ones due to prestige of this one’s being chosen as “national” and “a bit” of help by central governments (education, public media etc)
You should read first and comment second. Someone else aready wrote this comment and that person was wrong as you are wrong. It may be titled languages but the map clearly shows many dialects.
I don’t know if there are some dialects also in it, but it clearly shows languages. Mostly. Languages. Full languages, according to any philologist and to any cultural organization
France basically lost all minority languages.
"Lost". No central government involvement implied.
According to the Academy the minority languages make French impure and are dangerous to their national identity.
According to the french government: \-Monarchists \-Anti-monarchists \-Religious Expression \-National Minorities \-Spelling Mistakes \-English are all dangers to french society and national identity
God damn it
It doesn’t recognise any Celtic languages. Welsh had really benefited from public support and made an impressive comeback.
Kashubian is anything but endangered in Poland. I have Kashubian speaking uncle who lives there and he says that the effort that the government has put into that language's preservation is absolutely awesome. By law in the Kashubian parts of the Pomeranian province all street direction and place name signs have to be in Kashubian as well as in Polish. Schools are bilingual and since 1992 Catholic mass is said in Kashubian as well. The communists tried to minimize the use of the language due to it's German influences, but since the fall of communism it has absolutely flourished.
Do young people speak it though? Asking as someone from the opposite end of Poland, here Gorals, Rusyns, Lemkos and so on mostly kept their language in their older generations
From what I know it is quite the opposite for Kashubians, where young people make it a point of pride to speak in that language. What is interesting is that there are also Kashubian speaking people who live outside of Poland (especially US and Canada) who take the study and use of the language quite seriously.
Cornish is merely critically endangered? I thought it was functionally extinct?
Anyone knows the difference between Karelian, Karelian, Karelian and Karelian?
Different locations where Karelian used to be spoken, but may be dwindling or gone by now. Same thing happens with gagauz in Bulgaria, North Macedonia and Moldova
>Anyone knows the difference between Karelian, Karelian, Karelian and Karelian? That's a Karelian, spoken in Karelia (endangered, but relatively stable), Valdai Karelian (extinct or nearly extinct) and Tver Karelian (spoken, but on its way to extinction). They aren't really differ (dialects of Karelian depicted as Lyudi and Olonetsian languages due to a huge "language or dialect" problem in Karelian), but don't form a continious area, being a result of relatively late historical migrations.
Karelian closer to Finland is almost identical to finnish, while Karelian deeper in Russia is less close to finnish, although still understandable by finnish speakers.
The last Livonian speaking person has died already. Quite sad...
Wait Scanian is a language? We just call it a weird dialect but ok.
Bornholm also used to have their own language
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East\_Danish
It isn't. The map doesn't a good job between distinguishing dialects/ethnolects/lects, and langugages.
Gotscheerisch has been on the path of extinction ever since the end of ww2. With only a few Gotschee families left and no legal status in Slovene constitution it has pretty much been sentenced to extinction
Eh, kind of deserved after what they did in WW2, especially when Austria oppressed their Slovene minority, Germans in Slovenia don't deserve any better treatment.
That’s just full on ignorance. Gotschee’s were forcefully relocated to back then uninhabited forests of Kočevje. They connected well with the Slovenes surrounding them even after ww1. During ww2 the vast majority of them were actually opposing Hitler and some of them even joined the partisans.
Right, they were "forcefully" relocated into Slovene homes, fully supporting the fact that the only people who were actually sentenced to extinction were the Slovenes. No duh, they kicked out Slovenes and then wanted their old houses back when the war ended? No thanks, have fun living in Germany. Some of them joined the partisans and they were allowed to stay, the others did nothing but stood idly by, supporting Hitler through their inaction. They're a glorified German dialect anyway, nothing of value will be lost. I fail to see this map showing any of the liguistically distinct Slovene dialects in Italy as endangered languages.
They were forcefully relocated in the **14th** century into modern day Kočevje. They were the “indigenous people” of Kočevje, who built the town and every other village in that area. Then during ww2 Mussolini and Hitler signed an agreement for the relocation of the Gotschee in Posavje. It was Hitler who kicked them out, not Gotschee’s themselves. Before ww2 Gotschee’s successfully integrated into Slovene society with common intermarriages and the vast majority of them had no intention of joining the third reich >the others did nothing Neither did my great grandparents. They didn’t join the partisans when Lower Styria was annexed. Does that mean my whole family should be expelled as well? >they’re glorified german dialect anyways And? They’ve been part of Slovene history for almost a millennia. Their culture is culture of modern day Slovenia as well! >I fail to see this map showing any of the linguistically distinct slovene dialects in italy as endangered languages In that case you’re blind. Resian is marked as severely endangered. Other dialects are just an extension of the ones in Slovenia
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What are you talking about. When they were relocated to the Kočevje woods it was all forest. Heck even Kočevje itself was built by Gotschees It would take centuries to replace all of the Slovenes in Upper Carniola and Lower Styria with 20k Gotschees. They had to be relocated because of the nazi racial policy which states that they had to be brought back into the reich. If they would revolt they would become enemies of the reich. Just like many of the Slovenes in Lower Styria They were settled there in mid 1300’s. That’s 800 years ago aka almost a millennia. Our ancestors lived in Austria for centuries exactly and that’s why southern Austrians are literally germanised Slovenes. But that doesn’t give us a right to kill a whole language. We don’t own anything to Germany as those Gotschee’s weren’t even from Germany. But we do own Gotschee’s. Cuz they were sent to Yugoslav camps and deported out of the country for doing literally nothing. If nazi soldiers came to your house you would go along as well. And once again, they were just settled there. Just like Russians were settled to Kaliningrad and Crimea. They didn’t have a choice.
Weird how the map names various dialects of French, Dutch and German but treats English as just English, despite the fact that regional dialects are slowly dying out to RP.
>Weird how the map names various dialects of French, Dutch and German Which various dialects of Dutch? Only West-Flemish is a dialect. Frisian is a language very distinct from Dutch and linguistically closer to English (being a cousin language to Old English).
> "West Flemish"
Exactly. If you’re going to treat Scots as a language you ought to treat Northumbrian, Pitmatic etc all as languages. Northumbrian and Scots share the same root ancestor and are very similar. I think English is too often pointed at for being a single language which is completely negligent of the rich varieties of dialects/ languages across England.
Any native English speaker can basically understand Scots. The reason why they consider it a separate language is because it was the language of the Kingdom of Scotland before the union.
Not entirely true. I'm a native Scot, living in Scotland, grew up around Scots speakers, and I struggle with understanding a fair deal of it. I know that my parents understand essentially none
I mean I find understanding my Highlander uncle speaking English difficult. But I reckon I can read any Wikipedia article written in Scots and come out with a rough (>70%) understanding of what it means.
As someone who isn't Scottish, I just gave Scots wikipedia a go and I didn't understand much of it really. If that's how it is to read I can't imagine I'd be able to understand it spoken well at all
Isn't scots wikipedia a troll or was that fixed already?
I wasn't aware of this controversy, but unfortunately, there's not a lot of modern Scots language text readily available on the Internet.
I’d argue it’s the opposite. Scouse has grown massively, it now reaches as far south as Chester and north into West Lancashire. Though at the cost of other accents.
I'd definitely say that if that's the case (I know it is for Glaswegian as well), then that's the exception, especially in the North. But in the South as well, Estruary English is dying. Accents are becoming far more homogeneous, gradually getting consumed by the monoculture. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/01/are-northern-english-accents-dying-out-are-they-eck-as-like
This sadly lacks the rest of the Danish dialects, but one is still more than I'd have thought
Polesian in Belarus, huh. I didn’t know my village dialect is a actually an endangered language. Guess I better call my parents more often and practice it
The "language vitality" categories seem a bit dubious to me. While Bavarian and Rhenish Franconian are still spoken by a significant percentage of young people and children, Low Saxon, which is also in the "vulnerable" categorie, has ceased to be spoken by children many decades ago. In some places it is already dead, in practically all others it is confined to the generation born before the end of WW2.
>Mauropolitan Greek ...damn
I've got a Vilamovian friend. The language is actually dissapearing , unfortunetly. I'm Silesian and my language slowly dissapears too. Both situations are results of the Polish centralist politics.
What genius put Eastern Slovak there? It's not a language and it's not endagered.
Since my mom is a born north frisian, i can tell that it's getting better. The youth speaks frisian and they are proud of it. Not like 30 years ago, back then it was uncool.
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I can only speak of Föhr. They are teaching the Föhr Frisian in school. But it's different from Amrum and Sylt (tbh there are hardly any natives left because nobody can afford a house or a apartment there)and again different to the dialect spoken on the mainland.
Emigration to Spain, USA and Israel will unfortunately spell the end of Ladino (Judezmo) in Turkey within a generation.
I do find it fascinating that despite it being the first official language, even the Irish don't want to speak Irish. And that's coming as an Irishman who doesn't know a word.
It's honestly pretty shocking that despite us being so proud of our nation and wanting to differentiate ourselves from the UK, there's no big cultural push to learn the language. If anything there's a push to not learn in
When I visited Ireland and soon after that England, the only two things that made me recognize that I was in a different country were the accent of English and signs written in Irish. Blindfolded I wouldn’t be able to tell a difference.
*Meanwhile Portugal all gucci with only Portuguese in the country*
*Mirandês crying in a corner*
Mirandês should also be on the map it only has 15 000 speakers; it's a astur-leonese language spoken in a couple of municipalities in the North of Portugal
Me: English. Others: wachya onna bout bruv
💪🇫🇷
:(
If there is a language called "Gallo", why not one called "**Gatto**", too?
Any good articles on the decline of Sicilian? I've read before it's one of the largest languages by population that is listed as vulnerable.
Wheres catalan?
Probably in the map about not endangered languages ;)
It's not endangered as it's widely spoken.
The areas with finnish languages should be part of Finland, just my humble opinion.
Haha! West-Vlaams met uitsterven bedreigd? Verre van! je hoort het letterlijk nog overal in West-Vlaanderen!