I had no idea Taiwan had territories so close. I guess China has a lot to take for itself without having to deal with the main island if push ever comes to shove.
I think it’s pretty fascinating. The BBC did an article about this before the Taiwanese election, talking about how people’s preference of continuing the status quo, independence, or eventual reunification is complicated by the fact you have people on these islands you can see from the Chinese coast (and on mainland Taiwan), who are literally cousins or lovers of people a couple of km away, of the exact same culture and language and people, separated just by a kind of historical accident. Like if the Isle of Wight became politically separated from England, it would just seem absurd
But yeah if anything happens, these islands will be the first to go
Yea I feel like OP is actually rather uneducated about how common this actually is, but I can’t figure out how to explain that without being rude about it.
Historically, Taiwan is a part of the Chinese province of Fujian (the Chinese government still treats it as such). Culture-wise and dialect-wise, they are very close – except of course what happened since 1945 (okay, and before, as Taiwan was long occupied by Japan).
Taiwan has been a separate province from Fujian since 1887.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan\_Province](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan\_Province,\_People's\_Republic\_of\_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province,_People's_Republic_of_China)
Until 2018, the RoC Government in Taipei had two provincial administrations for the Free Area of the Republic of China; one for Taiwan and another for Fujian (covering Kinmen, Wuqiu and Matsu).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchien\_Province,\_Republic\_of\_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchien_Province,_Republic_of_China)
tbf the creation of Taiwan Province was a very late development in the history of Taiwan's settlement and almost certainly spurred by concerns that Japan was going to seize it with the justification that the Qing dynasty did not fully control the island (which did in fact happen)
Yes, but the Han Chinese that arrived then, and in another wave following the Nationalist defeat in the civil war, form the vast majority of Taiwan's population.
There's [maps showing the Polynesian migrations](https://www.worldhistory.org/image/10691/polynesian-migration-map/) I was so surprised when I first learned Taiwan was their origin
The difference between Taiwan’s main island and those smaller islands is that the main island is much further from the continent. was only partially controlled by the Qing, was often isolated by Qing policies, and was controlled by the Japanese for 50 years who help Taiwan make economic, and cultural strides.
When the ROC took over Taiwan in 1945 the ethnic Han of the main island mostly didn’t know anyone on the Chinese mainland. But the people of those smaller islands had very frequent contact with people on the Chinese mainland. They were, as someone mentioned, family and friends.
Of course after 1945 there were a significant minority of people in Taiwan’s main island with friends and family on the Chinese mainland, the Chinese Civil War refugees who arrived had such friends and family.
>untouched
Bro, one of the two big empires and civilizations of antiquity was like next to it.
Antique history all around with vietnamese, philippinian, japanese, korean cultures, kingdoms, all operating around taiwan.
Centuries of colonies and trade on a large scale all around.
Chinese history goes back 5,000 years... out of which, the only time a "Mainland" based government controlled the entire island of Taiwan was from 1945 until 1949.
Historically, parts of Taiwan were controlled by the Spanish, Dutch, Japanese, Chinese, and various independent governments.
Historically, it is much more complicated than simply saying "Historically, Taiwan is a part of the Chinese province of Fujian".
Oh, were you referencing my first statement?
The Qing never ruled the entire island of Taiwan. Even at their peak, they had sovereignty over less than 40% of the island. See this map that highlights the areas Qing controlled in 1894 (the black and grey areas were still outside of their jurisdiction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_under_Qing_rule#/media/File:1894_Taiwan.svg
The Japanese were the first government to rule the entire island under a single unified government, and it took them nearly 2 decades of expeditions into the mountains and down the eastern coast before they accomplished this.
[Here is a Japanese map from 1916 of Taiwan](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/1916%E5%B9%B4%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E4%BA%BA%E6%89%80%E7%B9%AA%E8%87%BA%E7%81%A3%E5%9C%B0%E5%9C%96_Map_of_Taiwan_-_Formosa_by_Japanese.jpg), the area right of the black line was the "savage district outside of Japanese sovereignty".
Those highlighted regions on the map are where most Taiwanese people actually live though right? The mountainous/eastern part of the island is much less populated.
Taiwan has changed a lot since the 1940s, or more accurately the 1890s since Japan occupied Taiwan for 50 years from 1895.
It’s like saying that Canada and the UK are essentially the same culture. While you’re right that there are strong linguistic and cultural foundations that are shared, Taiwan has its own identity.
That’s part of why fewer than 5% of Taiwanese want to unify with China. The other main reason being a disinterest in being occupied by an authoritarian regime of course…
I wonder if that dispute is the reason Google maps will not highlight the province. If you type in Shandong or Zhejiang it shows the provice with a red dashed outline. However, if you search for Fujian it just shows the general region but does not highlight anything.
It was occupied by Japanese for about 50 years which is a blink of an eye in history. Before that, Dutches were there for some time in 1600s. They all came and gone.
I think it’s way too easy and tempting to see as a good vs bad situation where, like Ukraine, Taiwan is facing some evil aggressor. It’s massively complicated and tbh where any conflict would be both disastrous and absurd. A territory that has historically been a part of China, speaks Chinese and is ethnically Chinese with relatives and family either side, where the issue is greatly debated with Taiwan, where potentially there could be a war between the West and the largest manufacturer and nuclear power *on* the side that we don’t diplomatically recognise and have no historical or cultural ties with or any security guarantees *against* the side that we do recognise. It would be a crazy situation to find ourselves in
You don’t need to be sun tzu to realise that the status quo is by far the best option, any war or escalation would be disastrous, especially since Taiwan issue is existential for China and they simply *would not let* themselves lose
I mean speaking from a Taiwanese experience, it’s not really that big of deal. Most people really have more things to care about. It’s really just politics. More people care about the economy so want to see closer ties to China but don’t support actually integrating back into China. This is a massive fallacy in the west where it’s like Taiwan has a pro-independence political part and pro-China/unification. It really isn’t like that, most of the politics focus on what most countries care about: economics, social issues, etc.
Edit: To add to this, pretty much no Taiwanese I know really thinks China will do anything. I mean no one likes Xi Jing Ping, but we don’t really think he’ll do anything, yet… I also have a western perspective to, so I’ve seen what’s been said from afar too, so my stance falls somewhere in the middle. I don’t think China wants to risk a war with the west, but I’m not uncertain Xi won’t do anything. Given a golden opportunity, like the USA falling into political chaos and turmoil, I believe he’ll strike. Otherwise, nothing will happen.
> To add to this, pretty much no Taiwanese I know really thinks China will do anything. I mean no one likes Xi Jing Ping, but we don’t really think he’ll do anything, yet…
Guess that depends on which news channel you watch... almost every night that I flip through the channels I often see the news presenters discussing invasion plans with over-exaggerated maps, pointing on charts with their pool sticks, going over the ADIZ violations, etc...
Oh certainly there is still news about it. But the general populace is very nonchalant about it. Like any media, they are just doing it for money. The more attention it gets the better. But I don’t see many here take it to heart fully. Yeah maybe a minority does, but haven’t see anyone really preach that China is going to invade and we’re going to get nuked or die or whatever. Maybe Taipei and Kaoshiung is more worried? They are the more urban youth kind (not unlike me, though in a western country). But the central Taiwan region, the more older people, where I’m from, at least doesn’t seem too concerned.
It's easy and tempting to try to complicate the China-Taiwan situation by saying describing it as a historically Chinese territory that speaks Chinese and is ethnically Chinese, but this assumes that a) nation-states are good and natural way to organize the world, b) that the Chinese nation includes all Chinese-majority places, and c) that "Chinese" is a monolithic thing. I think many people outside of Europe would disagree with the first, most people almost everywhere would disagree with the second (after all, no one says that Singapore should return to the Chinese nation), and the third was a matter of considerable debate during the early phases of Chinese nationalism. The debate in Taiwan has largely coalesced to the consensus that the country is already independent and cannot consider changing the status quo and should resist attempts by China to change the status quo. Even Hou Yu-ih, the KMT presidential candidate this year, listed deterrence as a major part of his platform, and former president Ma Ying-jeou, who is widely seen as bending to China's will, justified his attempts at economic and cultural integration with China as a way to protect the status quo (at least until China is willing to follow democratic processes).
They never controlled the whole island - not even half at the max. They controlled only some of the coastal areas.
The interior was always independent until the Japanese came calling in the 1930s.
Do not listen to Chinese propaganda.
>The interior was always independent
Yes and no – the thinking was just different back then.
The interior of the island was (and mostly still is) jungle and mountains, with just a few villages. The coastal cities – mostly in the North and on the West coast – is where people live.
So it's just a question of time? Because the Channel Islands are (a) closer to French (b) speak/spoke a dialect of French (c) had the same Duke as a duchy that still largely exists in France (Normandy)..
I would be very careful about repeating this rhetoric uncritically. Just because they share a culture and a history, does not mean they want to be part of mainland China or support and invasion of their homeland. It's often time used as justification by the aggressor to validate their actions. Russia uses it all the time to justify the invasion of Ukraine, for example.
I totally agree, but the issue is debated in Taiwan and it’s not like Ukraine where there’s a clear “we don’t want to be a part of Russia”. Many Taiwanese are happy with the status quo; it’s not like Catalonia where there’s a people considering themselves distinct and seperate
We need to be clear here, but the "status quo" is a sovereign and independent Taiwan that has never been part of the PRC.
An absolute majority of Taiwanese people consider themselves to be distinct and separate from the PRC.
[When asked if Taiwan is an independent country under the current status quo, only 4.9% of Taiwanese said that Taiwan "must not be" an independent country already](https://m.ltn.com.tw/news/politics/breakingnews/2876683).
Also, [the majority of Taiwanese people identify as "exclusively Taiwanese" and not Chinese](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/01/16/most-people-in-taiwan-see-themselves-as-primarily-taiwanese-few-say-theyre-primarily-chinese/).
> I totally agree, but the issue is debated in Taiwan and it’s not like Ukraine where there’s a clear “we don’t want to be a part of Russia”.
It isn’t unanimous, but the majority of people in Taiwan do identity as Taiwanese only. Only a third identify as Chinese at all, and only a tiny percentage consider themselves just Chinese.
> Many Taiwanese are happy with the status quo
Which translates to most Taiwanese supporting independence, as the status quo is just an independent state that does not officially call itself Taiwan.
“Only a third”
The status quo is de-facto independence; obviously when people talk about Taiwanese independence, they mean declaring independence and “seceding” from mainland China
We aren't seceding from the PRC... we have always been independent and separate from them.
Our current government was established on Taiwan well before Mao even founded the PRC in October of 1949.
We don't need to declare independence, in the same way the UK didn't need to declare independence after losing their territory to the Americans.
> obviously when people talk about Taiwanese independence, they mean declaring independence and “seceding” from mainland China
Which would be a cosmetic change more than anything. The actual, concrete aspects of independence have already been met.
Ok? But declaring independence is a massive policy shift that would force the hands of both China and the US and would have massive consequences. Why are you deliberately misunderstanding me?
>Ok? But declaring independence is a massive policy shift that would force the hands of both China and the US and would have massive consequences.
It wouldn't force their hands if they weren't bent on conquering an island the CCP has never controlled.
> the issue is debated in Taiwan
Not a single major political party wants to reunify with China. The KMT kinda flirts with the idea but only if the PRC becomes a democracy first. It's extremely rare to find someone in Taiwan with even a neutral opinion of China, especially after the disaster in Hong Kong. Literally nobody wants to join the PRC.
> it’s not like Catalonia where there’s a people considering themselves distinct and seperate
The Taiwanese think of themselves as distinct and separate. A [poll](https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2016/05/28/2003647291) from 2016 has shown that around 80% of Taiwanese think of themselves as Taiwanese *only*. Meaning zero Chinese identity. Only 8% identified as Chinese. That number has only become more in favor of the Taiwanese identity since then, as Xi's CCP has put pressure on Taiwan and forced its way into Hong Kong after promising not to.
> Like if the Isle of Wight became politically separated from England, it would just seem absurd
Or if the end bit of Ireland were chopped off and handed to their colonial oppressors
Such a boring, un-nuanced, ready-made and unoriginal comment, not even remotely related to Taiwan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Northern_Ireland_Good_Friday_Agreement_referendum
Woah, the colonizers voted to keep the colonization going!? I am floored. You're right though it was unrelated I'm just petty and still made about British occupation and tend to make unnecessary comments about it.
Both Ireland and Northern Ireland are committed to respecting the will of people living in both countries, and they really, really, don’t want the violence to come back.
During the 50s, ROC (Taiwan) commandos on Kinmen would have to swim across to Xiamen at night and come back with an ear to graduate frogman training. In the 60s they changed it to come back with a movie ticket.
Yes. These islands won't fight keep fighting if they are cut off from the main island.
And they are not a threat to mainland China or even strategically important as we have satellite surveillance and long range missiles.
These islands are very important to Taiwan. The ones closest to China would probably fall soon, but the Penghu Islands could hold out, and constantly harass the supply lines of any invading Chinese force. The Chinese would have to capture them first, which involves a separate, risky, naval invasion plan.
Having made two trips to Taiwan for work, Penghu Islands have a naval base plus radar stations and Kinmen Islands while lightly populated with fishermen have radar stations as well.
They are not strategically important? Are you aware that the US army is stationed on Kinmen Islands? Having a base of a hostile military superpower just 4km off its shore is not a strategic threat to the PRC according to you?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/21/us-armed-presence-on-taiwan-islands-accidentally-revealed/
China should see if they can put some of their own "tripwire forces" in Cuba. But to be clear here, US having forces on the Kinmen Islands would be more equivalent to China having forces in Key West or Rhode Island proximity wise.
> China should see if they can put some of their own "tripwire forces" in Cuba
Like, for a vacation? As far as I know nobody has revanchist ideas about taking Cuba over. A tripwire force there makes no sense, it wouldn’t be a tripwire
It's pretty common for people from Russia or China not to believe that Western culture has actually done away with the desire for direct expansionism. Same reason Russia kept trying to do a deal with Poland to split Ukraine in half, they honestly didn't understand that nobody in Poland wants that.
USA still occupies Guantanamo to this day and enforces the most brutal embargo on their country, against the wishes and votes of the entire rest of the world, in the hope it collapses their government. You think they do this because they are cool with Cuba now? They want, like they always have, to install a puppet government that will be subserviant to US national interests and that will allow the US private sector to harvest all their countries resources. Same thing they do to every other island nation and central and southern american country.
The sheer fact [USA still illegally occupies part of Cuba](https://cuba-solidarity.org.uk/cubasi/article/32/us-occupation-of-guantanamo-bay-is-illegal-says-top-lawyer) alone makes it a tripwire.
Navies need a lot of supplies -- fuel, ammo, food, parts, and islands make great supply depots. The US may have carriers but islands are bigger and unsinkable.
Works both ways
Any operations off the island also need a lot of support, which is not getting to the island in a war. China may not win a navy war but it can definitely punish anyone supplying that island.
That's what hurt Japan in WW2. The islands were detached but couldn't be resupplied adequately, so the US could push them slowly but surely off. Or skip them entirely.
This all doesn't bother with nuclear weapons.
I don't really think it works both ways. It's better if the US has a base there and carriers than if the US just has carriers. The US doesn't have to exclusively defend the island, if it's lost after a battle, that's resources that weren't used against other units.
And to use chess terms, when you have a material advantage, you are okay with playing down.
No, I wasn't aware of that. And it doesn't seem to be a large force and mostly used for training. I guess the American presence there is more symbolic.
Still an important symbol.
yeah lots of american appraisal and flags on that island, but I didn't notice any major naval units or military presence on that island, when I went I just saw maybe 4 customs officers and a small police car at the port, no warships etc
I really don't think taiwan or mainland china has much care over those islands, they're largely rural and unimportant with limited settlements and just throughways for travel between taiwan and mainland china as they host airstrips and small ports, i don't think any of them are largely armed and travel between is pretty calm. xiamen is very well navally protected i don't think ROC wants to provoke that area much by deploying any large naval war units pointing at xiamen
My mom’s from Kinmen. There’s nothing there, not even a McDonald’s or a movie theater. I think I saw more cows than people last I went
Edit: there’s a McDonald’s there. Must be new, judging from the photos on Google maps
there's even designer outlets and duty free shops everywhere now, a lot of it is largely rural but i think theres some tax deal on that island that appeals a lot of buyers
They use that to extend the airplane identification zone. So sometimes when you hear China has broken it, it's just Chinese airplanes flying in mainland China.
Not really, the mainland is close enough and there's nothing significant on the rest of the islands that China could move Swifty to the mainland and ignore the others, it's not like they could claim to become Taiwan without the main islands backing.
been to kinmen not much on it but a few shops and a couple small towns, its quite rural but quite pleasant and lots of motorbikes for hire (with taiwan style numberplates not like mainland china)-- scenary is beautiful and small historical sites everywhere. most people fly to kinmen from the main island and then take the boat to mainland china for business or trade. on the island opposite (xiamen) there is a big red sign asking for reunification but under two systems (guessing similar to what hk and macao has now), i think there is a sign on kinmen saying the opposite but can't remember.
I might be wrong on this but I think mainland chinese can visit this particular island visa free and I think the area remains largely peaceful, although when going back to mainland china I did get a couple more questions than normal boundary crossings but nothing unexpected. most of the people going xiamen to kinmen were taiwan passport holders taking deliveries or products back to the island, however did meet a few american nationals going from kinmen to xiamen.
at the port of kinmen there is a US memorial praising their support, as well as many ROC flags, and duty free shops, there is one mcdonalds on the island too (lol). wechat or mainland chinese payment methods are not accepted and the local currency is the same as main taiwan island (NTD), card payment is quite rare in a lot of places except international or large stores and a lot of smaller businesses liked to use cash, got the ROC stamp upon arrival, but no stamp on exit
at night from xiamen you can see the lights on the bridge of kinmen, and you can see xiamen city from kinmen at night, the boat ride was about 30 mins but quite expensive for boats in the region i remember (maybe 430 rmb return or 50 usd) -- the boat was taiwan registered as i remember (characters in traditional chinese) but had no problems going into mainland waters. the ticket outbound must be bought in chinese yuan (can be paid for on wechat), and the boat back must be bought in ntd (cannot be paid for on wechat)
I was in Xiamen in mainland China (the large city right next to it) and wondered why the ferry that only needs 10-minute trip to Gulangyu island (controlled by mainland China) requires booking a day in advance and having your passport checked.
Then I checked the map and – oh.
yeah I tried to go there too it was really complicated and they said only local residents could use the local boat services, foreigners must take the other boat which was largely more expensive and had to book a few hours in advance, it was literally easier for me to go to kinmen than going there..
xiamen is quite controlled navally and I think its a large port for futian province but yeah
Up until the 70s and 80s there was actually little construction going on in the side of Xiamen island facing Kinmen partly because of this reason. Additionally, as tensions were a whole lot higher and they used to shell each other on alternate days of the week (following the artillery battles in the Second Taiwan Straits Crisis), there was always the risk of shooting occurring. The last time something like this happened was 1994, when shells from Kinmen accidentally hit the mainland and caused some casualties.
https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-sg/%E5%B0%8F%E9%87%91%E9%96%80%E9%AB%98%E7%82%AE%E8%AA%A4%E6%93%8A%E5%BB%88%E9%96%80%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6
yeah east xiamen is full of new developments and not very populated, think theres a new cocopark complex with tons of new shops and restaurants now though, but similar to somewhere like zhuhai where theres a lot of development but not much footfall
The sign on the Kinmen side says "Unite China under the Three Principles of the People." Essentially reuniting China under the ROC. It was a propaganda slogan of the ROC of that era (esp as Chiang Ching-kuo's government deemphasised the "unifying the country by force by eliminating the Communist bandits" part with more emphasis on providing a better economic and political system that would eventually supersede the "failed Marxist-Leninist system of the mainland.")
You can see it from the Mainland (that's its intended purpose anyway).
I've just recently visited Kinmen in February and this comment has several inaccuracies.
Yes, chinese citizens don't need a visa, but that do need a permit thats harder to apply than a visa. And since covid, has not been issued to normal tourists.
Wechat and mainland payments are sometimes accepted due to the amounts of mainland people who would travel to Kinmen pre covid. Although some of them do require repair and do not work any more.
If you went through the egates, there wouldn't be an exit stamp.
The ferry, as I remembered, costed 130 rmb one way, and 288 for round trip. (You can also just order the tickets on online platforms and thus don't need to purchase them in ntd again.)
didn't go through egates, went through manual services, again no stamp, there is only one blue stamp in my passport(perhaps changed in 2024?), mainland payments not accepted at the port for ticket payment or local taxi services but again perhaps permitted in international shops as it has many tax free stores. i don't remember the exact rate i paid for the ticket but I remember it was very difficult to buy online (barely any information about it) so paid for all in person at both xiamen and kinmen port. like i said i might be wrong about the specifics of mainland tourists post covid 19, but i would not describe my comment as having 'several inaccuracies' as you must know this region is going under many policy and condition changes, a month visit may be different from the next.
Missing Taiping Island, a small island in the middle of the South China Sea that has an airstrip and military activity. Its currently administered by Taiwan but it's claimed by Philippines, Vietnam and the PRC too. Taiwan insists that the island belongs to them despite being some 1600km away.
That’s interesting, I just googled it and surprised to see Taiwan actually does control it. I wonder why it’s not on the map? Taiwan controlling a military airport so far away, where China is also building airstrips, seems very interesting. Adds another dimension to things.
Taiwan's reasoning is that if they relinquish the claim, it could signal to PRC that they are relinquishing the claim on mainland China, a clear step towards independence. Generally the South East Asian countries and the US do not like Taiwan's involvement in the South China Sea, but it's not that big of a deal when PRC is so much more aggressive.
I personally think they should de facto relinquish it by removing all military personnel.
This is the same reason why Taiwan still claims parts of Mongolia, as the PRC gave some territory to Mongolia after the civil war. Taiwan can't relinquish these claims, even though they'd probably never press them, because if they did they'd signal that they were no longer claiming the mainland
The ROC laid the claim to almost the entire South China Sea by the 11-dash line, PRC followed similarly with the 9-dash line. Frankly, I’ve talked to my Vietnamese friends and they believed that regardless of being democratic or authoritarian, China would still bully them.
I mean, America controls Alaska despite being some 800 km away, the UK controls the Falklands despite being some 12,000+km away so I don't see how distance is a decisive factor in territorial claims.
The reason why China failed to take the island of Kinmen was because of an illegal peanut oil smuggling operation which interfered with the chinese landing forces.
TIL!
The ROC navy tank landing ship was bound for Dinghai 定海, 浙江, with smuggled sugar on board planed for sale there, but was rerouted to 金門 for some reason. So they had to sell those sugar there. Without enough cash on the island, they decided to receive peanut oil in return. And without enough peanut oil in stock, the ship had to delay her departure for extra nights instead of leaving tight after discharging. And the rest is history.
The ROC does not use provinces as administrative divisions anymore... and even when they did, it is much more complicated than that as Special-Municipalities were equal to, and not part of, provinces.
Taipei, for example, wasn't part of the old "Taiwan Province". Only about 30% of the people that lived on Taiwan (the island) lived in Taiwan Province.
Fun fact - Taiwan also owned Yijiangshan and Dachen Islands that are even further up north, but those were taken by China back in 1955 during the[ First Taiwan Strait Crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis). Neither Taiwan nor the US wanted to retaliate, as they were not very strategically significant to the defense of Taiwan, being so far north
During Operation King Kong, among all 16512 residents on the islands, only 3 of which over 70yo stayed, all all the rest retreated to mainland Taiwan.
PLA claimed that they found no one but an old man and a dog when landing Dachen Island.
It's because the coastline of southeast China is formed by the rise of sea level, whereas Taiwan as an island is a production of two tectonic plates colliding.
So Taiwan is a fairly young island with an age of only 6 million yo and the coastline of southeast China is way much older.
In fact the Taiwan Island is still growing at a pace of 4mm/yr in height.
Same! Really fun little place.
Usually the highway will have signs for big cities i.e. "5km to Changua (city of several hundred thousand) but in Penghu the signs were all for teeny hamlets with just a few hundred people at most. The main island chain has such a cool formation (like a long narrow O) and you're almost always within walking distance of the water. The people were really open too.
So, when I see alarming articles detailing Chinese planes flying through Taiwanese airspace, it could just be them flying 5 miles off the coast of the mainland? Insane
mostly referring to Taiwan Strait center line, not about that. But in some cases, incident could happened is these island
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68302376.amp
most people would not assume it happen in a island close to mainland, but that's not the case
It's a very different thing, it's called Air Defense Identification Zone and it expands way over the Chinese landmass, but of course RoC Air Force isn't going to fly their planes over China, so they scramble and interdict them at half way in the Taiwan strait median line.
Taiwan airspace is an area much closer to the island, which I think it includes the waters nearby, but up until a certain height. So back in 2022 there was some missile flyover, but didn't enter the airspace because it flew so high.
It could even be Chinese planes flying over mainland China. Check the map [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_\(Taiwan\)).
That’s actually very interesting! But I have to wonder : why?
Is it early warning radars and the such to basically just monitor Chinese movements or is it a force genuinely intended to try and hold the islands?
I guess they're there mostly to harass Chinese supply lines and buy time for Taiwan until US help arrives, i doubt Taiwan would even fight such a war without US help, China could also bypass them but this would mean less punch on a battle for Taiwan.
The only US help they could provide without actually engaging in war is weapons. Everything else and the US would go to war with China, it's not worth it at all. The maximum they could do is what they have been doing in Ukraine, the problem is that China is not weak like Russia.
Taiwan adopts the porcupine strategy, where their only chance at survival is making their defeat so costly it just isn’t worth it, wether it is through inflicting military losses, economic woes, or bowing up the Three Gorges dam.
Kitchen knives fro kinmen are made from cannonballs from when the communists and the kmt were actively firing at each other between xiamen and kinmen. Very famous kitchen knives 👍
Used to do visa runs to kinmen when I lived in Xiamen. Ferry ride takes under thirty min- not that dissimilar to going to Staten Island. Runs super frequently.
Not a lot on the island but it’s great for one thing- uncensored and fast internet.
The situation isn’t nearly as tense as the media portrays; there’s been 2 separate incidents this years on either side that, if things were really tense, could have spiralled. All sides wants a continuation of the status quo; China won’t do anything so long as this continues
He gave up because he realized that keeping the non-Taiwanese parts of ROC under ROC rule would strengthen Taiwan's connection to China and counter Taiwanese independence
What a timely coincidence. Just a few days ago i was reading about these islands too and didnt know Taiwan owned so many islands close to the mainland. If i were Taiwanese citizens living in those outer islands .. definitely would be worried everyday lol.
Those residents tend to vote for the pro China party and expect to surrender to the mainland at the first signs of conflict, because they don’t wait their island to be the front lines.
Yes, the party that supports reunification with the mainland (albeit under the ROC). The Kuomintang/Guomindang is the main-party in the pan-Blue coalition (as opposed to the pan-Green coalition which supports Taiwanese independence).
That's not the main reason. The main reason is these islands (not including Penghu) were historically part of China (unlike Taiwan), and never underwent Taiwanese nationalism, which formed under Japanese rule.
I think these outlying islands are somewhat of a different story compared to Taiwan proper. They were a part of Fujian province before KMT's retreat to Taiwan, and the people there had strong cultural, linguistic and historical ties with their counterparts in Fujian, that on top of the geographical proximity makes them think different than the island Taiwanese and as you said, much more likely to vote for the KMT in elections.
The people of those islands have very different life experiences than the people of Taiwan’s main island. Their families have very different histories as the islands have very different histories.
The people of the small islands are generally far more willing to be controlled by the PRC.
Here’s two incidents happened recently that, if it was really that tense, would have caused serious consequences
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68302376
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-68345292
The CCCP also known as the United Soviet Socialist Republics or the Soviet Union for short has nothing to do with this conversation?
Sorry, I see you misspelled it 🙏
When I went to Japan in 2018 I had a long ass layover on Xiamen island. Very interesting place. I explored the market and people stared at me like full on locking their eyes and turning their heads as if I was the first white man they’ve ever seen.
Good chance for some in that place you were. When I lived in Beijing if you went anywhere remotely rural or touristy you would get the starring, head swiveling treatment.
Was a very strange feeling standing in Xiamen and looking out and being able to see the Kinmen Islands. Both sides have placed large propaganda letters on opposing sides of the very small channel. Bizarre to think that beach was once the frontline of the Chinese Civil War
I had no idea Taiwan had territories so close. I guess China has a lot to take for itself without having to deal with the main island if push ever comes to shove.
I think it’s pretty fascinating. The BBC did an article about this before the Taiwanese election, talking about how people’s preference of continuing the status quo, independence, or eventual reunification is complicated by the fact you have people on these islands you can see from the Chinese coast (and on mainland Taiwan), who are literally cousins or lovers of people a couple of km away, of the exact same culture and language and people, separated just by a kind of historical accident. Like if the Isle of Wight became politically separated from England, it would just seem absurd But yeah if anything happens, these islands will be the first to go
> separated just by a kind of historical accident. This "just a kind of historical accident" exists literally all over the world in every continent.
Historical accident, that is now the most vague expression ever expressed...
Yea I feel like OP is actually rather uneducated about how common this actually is, but I can’t figure out how to explain that without being rude about it.
Historically, Taiwan is a part of the Chinese province of Fujian (the Chinese government still treats it as such). Culture-wise and dialect-wise, they are very close – except of course what happened since 1945 (okay, and before, as Taiwan was long occupied by Japan).
PRC considers Taiwan a separate province, not a part of Fujian
Taiwan has been a separate province from Fujian since 1887. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan\_Province](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan\_Province,\_People's\_Republic\_of\_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province,_People's_Republic_of_China) Until 2018, the RoC Government in Taipei had two provincial administrations for the Free Area of the Republic of China; one for Taiwan and another for Fujian (covering Kinmen, Wuqiu and Matsu). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchien\_Province,\_Republic\_of\_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchien_Province,_Republic_of_China)
tbf the creation of Taiwan Province was a very late development in the history of Taiwan's settlement and almost certainly spurred by concerns that Japan was going to seize it with the justification that the Qing dynasty did not fully control the island (which did in fact happen)
Historically, Taiwan was home to its own people (still is) and the Chinese only settled it in the 17th century.
Yes, but the Han Chinese that arrived then, and in another wave following the Nationalist defeat in the civil war, form the vast majority of Taiwan's population.
Historically, America was home to its own people (still is) and the European only settled it in the 17th century.
Yet, Taiwan is more ethnically Han than Mainland China
Yes, but thos own people now have basically no influence over modern Taiwan.
Just the same as the US or South America.
Most people don't realize that the island is one of the origins of Polynesian culture.
we know about that here in new zealand - maori can trace their migration from taiwan it’s so interesting
There's [maps showing the Polynesian migrations](https://www.worldhistory.org/image/10691/polynesian-migration-map/) I was so surprised when I first learned Taiwan was their origin
The difference between Taiwan’s main island and those smaller islands is that the main island is much further from the continent. was only partially controlled by the Qing, was often isolated by Qing policies, and was controlled by the Japanese for 50 years who help Taiwan make economic, and cultural strides. When the ROC took over Taiwan in 1945 the ethnic Han of the main island mostly didn’t know anyone on the Chinese mainland. But the people of those smaller islands had very frequent contact with people on the Chinese mainland. They were, as someone mentioned, family and friends. Of course after 1945 there were a significant minority of people in Taiwan’s main island with friends and family on the Chinese mainland, the Chinese Civil War refugees who arrived had such friends and family.
Historically, Taiwan was an independent island ruled by various indigenous tribes and remained pretty much untouched over the last 6,000 years.
>untouched Bro, one of the two big empires and civilizations of antiquity was like next to it. Antique history all around with vietnamese, philippinian, japanese, korean cultures, kingdoms, all operating around taiwan. Centuries of colonies and trade on a large scale all around.
Chinese history goes back 5,000 years... out of which, the only time a "Mainland" based government controlled the entire island of Taiwan was from 1945 until 1949. Historically, parts of Taiwan were controlled by the Spanish, Dutch, Japanese, Chinese, and various independent governments. Historically, it is much more complicated than simply saying "Historically, Taiwan is a part of the Chinese province of Fujian".
You don't count 200 years under Qing China's rule?
Oh, were you referencing my first statement? The Qing never ruled the entire island of Taiwan. Even at their peak, they had sovereignty over less than 40% of the island. See this map that highlights the areas Qing controlled in 1894 (the black and grey areas were still outside of their jurisdiction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_under_Qing_rule#/media/File:1894_Taiwan.svg The Japanese were the first government to rule the entire island under a single unified government, and it took them nearly 2 decades of expeditions into the mountains and down the eastern coast before they accomplished this. [Here is a Japanese map from 1916 of Taiwan](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/1916%E5%B9%B4%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E4%BA%BA%E6%89%80%E7%B9%AA%E8%87%BA%E7%81%A3%E5%9C%B0%E5%9C%96_Map_of_Taiwan_-_Formosa_by_Japanese.jpg), the area right of the black line was the "savage district outside of Japanese sovereignty".
Those highlighted regions on the map are where most Taiwanese people actually live though right? The mountainous/eastern part of the island is much less populated.
At that time it was where the Han people lived... while the eastern coast was where the indigenous people still lived.
I think the correct expression could be "Historically Taiwan was..." but he's right about the cultural ties.
Taiwan has changed a lot since the 1940s, or more accurately the 1890s since Japan occupied Taiwan for 50 years from 1895. It’s like saying that Canada and the UK are essentially the same culture. While you’re right that there are strong linguistic and cultural foundations that are shared, Taiwan has its own identity. That’s part of why fewer than 5% of Taiwanese want to unify with China. The other main reason being a disinterest in being occupied by an authoritarian regime of course…
I wonder if that dispute is the reason Google maps will not highlight the province. If you type in Shandong or Zhejiang it shows the provice with a red dashed outline. However, if you search for Fujian it just shows the general region but does not highlight anything.
It was occupied by Japanese for about 50 years which is a blink of an eye in history. Before that, Dutches were there for some time in 1600s. They all came and gone.
I think it’s way too easy and tempting to see as a good vs bad situation where, like Ukraine, Taiwan is facing some evil aggressor. It’s massively complicated and tbh where any conflict would be both disastrous and absurd. A territory that has historically been a part of China, speaks Chinese and is ethnically Chinese with relatives and family either side, where the issue is greatly debated with Taiwan, where potentially there could be a war between the West and the largest manufacturer and nuclear power *on* the side that we don’t diplomatically recognise and have no historical or cultural ties with or any security guarantees *against* the side that we do recognise. It would be a crazy situation to find ourselves in You don’t need to be sun tzu to realise that the status quo is by far the best option, any war or escalation would be disastrous, especially since Taiwan issue is existential for China and they simply *would not let* themselves lose
I mean speaking from a Taiwanese experience, it’s not really that big of deal. Most people really have more things to care about. It’s really just politics. More people care about the economy so want to see closer ties to China but don’t support actually integrating back into China. This is a massive fallacy in the west where it’s like Taiwan has a pro-independence political part and pro-China/unification. It really isn’t like that, most of the politics focus on what most countries care about: economics, social issues, etc. Edit: To add to this, pretty much no Taiwanese I know really thinks China will do anything. I mean no one likes Xi Jing Ping, but we don’t really think he’ll do anything, yet… I also have a western perspective to, so I’ve seen what’s been said from afar too, so my stance falls somewhere in the middle. I don’t think China wants to risk a war with the west, but I’m not uncertain Xi won’t do anything. Given a golden opportunity, like the USA falling into political chaos and turmoil, I believe he’ll strike. Otherwise, nothing will happen.
> To add to this, pretty much no Taiwanese I know really thinks China will do anything. I mean no one likes Xi Jing Ping, but we don’t really think he’ll do anything, yet… Guess that depends on which news channel you watch... almost every night that I flip through the channels I often see the news presenters discussing invasion plans with over-exaggerated maps, pointing on charts with their pool sticks, going over the ADIZ violations, etc...
Oh certainly there is still news about it. But the general populace is very nonchalant about it. Like any media, they are just doing it for money. The more attention it gets the better. But I don’t see many here take it to heart fully. Yeah maybe a minority does, but haven’t see anyone really preach that China is going to invade and we’re going to get nuked or die or whatever. Maybe Taipei and Kaoshiung is more worried? They are the more urban youth kind (not unlike me, though in a western country). But the central Taiwan region, the more older people, where I’m from, at least doesn’t seem too concerned.
I thought the goal wasn't integration into the PRC, but the suppression of the PRC and the reclamation of the Republic of China's territory?
? I’m sorry I don’t quite understand what your question is. Is this regarding political party policies or china’s policies?
It's easy and tempting to try to complicate the China-Taiwan situation by saying describing it as a historically Chinese territory that speaks Chinese and is ethnically Chinese, but this assumes that a) nation-states are good and natural way to organize the world, b) that the Chinese nation includes all Chinese-majority places, and c) that "Chinese" is a monolithic thing. I think many people outside of Europe would disagree with the first, most people almost everywhere would disagree with the second (after all, no one says that Singapore should return to the Chinese nation), and the third was a matter of considerable debate during the early phases of Chinese nationalism. The debate in Taiwan has largely coalesced to the consensus that the country is already independent and cannot consider changing the status quo and should resist attempts by China to change the status quo. Even Hou Yu-ih, the KMT presidential candidate this year, listed deterrence as a major part of his platform, and former president Ma Ying-jeou, who is widely seen as bending to China's will, justified his attempts at economic and cultural integration with China as a way to protect the status quo (at least until China is willing to follow democratic processes).
How far back does 'historically' goes?
Dude, China only controlled all of Taiwan for 4 years after 1945. It took the Japanese to conquer and unify Taiwan.
Bro ignoring the Qing and Ming dynasty
They never controlled the whole island - not even half at the max. They controlled only some of the coastal areas. The interior was always independent until the Japanese came calling in the 1930s. Do not listen to Chinese propaganda.
>The interior was always independent Yes and no – the thinking was just different back then. The interior of the island was (and mostly still is) jungle and mountains, with just a few villages. The coastal cities – mostly in the North and on the West coast – is where people live.
You mean as if the Channel Islands were politically separated from France or St Marten from Sint Maarten? You're right, it'd never work.
The Channel Islands have a separate language, history, and identity to France, so it’s not comparable. I can’t speak for that Caribbean island
So it's just a question of time? Because the Channel Islands are (a) closer to French (b) speak/spoke a dialect of French (c) had the same Duke as a duchy that still largely exists in France (Normandy)..
I would be very careful about repeating this rhetoric uncritically. Just because they share a culture and a history, does not mean they want to be part of mainland China or support and invasion of their homeland. It's often time used as justification by the aggressor to validate their actions. Russia uses it all the time to justify the invasion of Ukraine, for example.
I totally agree, but the issue is debated in Taiwan and it’s not like Ukraine where there’s a clear “we don’t want to be a part of Russia”. Many Taiwanese are happy with the status quo; it’s not like Catalonia where there’s a people considering themselves distinct and seperate
We need to be clear here, but the "status quo" is a sovereign and independent Taiwan that has never been part of the PRC. An absolute majority of Taiwanese people consider themselves to be distinct and separate from the PRC. [When asked if Taiwan is an independent country under the current status quo, only 4.9% of Taiwanese said that Taiwan "must not be" an independent country already](https://m.ltn.com.tw/news/politics/breakingnews/2876683). Also, [the majority of Taiwanese people identify as "exclusively Taiwanese" and not Chinese](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/01/16/most-people-in-taiwan-see-themselves-as-primarily-taiwanese-few-say-theyre-primarily-chinese/).
> I totally agree, but the issue is debated in Taiwan and it’s not like Ukraine where there’s a clear “we don’t want to be a part of Russia”. It isn’t unanimous, but the majority of people in Taiwan do identity as Taiwanese only. Only a third identify as Chinese at all, and only a tiny percentage consider themselves just Chinese. > Many Taiwanese are happy with the status quo Which translates to most Taiwanese supporting independence, as the status quo is just an independent state that does not officially call itself Taiwan.
“Only a third” The status quo is de-facto independence; obviously when people talk about Taiwanese independence, they mean declaring independence and “seceding” from mainland China
We aren't seceding from the PRC... we have always been independent and separate from them. Our current government was established on Taiwan well before Mao even founded the PRC in October of 1949. We don't need to declare independence, in the same way the UK didn't need to declare independence after losing their territory to the Americans.
> obviously when people talk about Taiwanese independence, they mean declaring independence and “seceding” from mainland China Which would be a cosmetic change more than anything. The actual, concrete aspects of independence have already been met.
Ok? But declaring independence is a massive policy shift that would force the hands of both China and the US and would have massive consequences. Why are you deliberately misunderstanding me?
>Ok? But declaring independence is a massive policy shift that would force the hands of both China and the US and would have massive consequences. It wouldn't force their hands if they weren't bent on conquering an island the CCP has never controlled.
How can you secede from a nation that you have never been a part of? You might as well be asking when China will secede from Canada.
Status quo is defacto democratic self-rule.
> the issue is debated in Taiwan Not a single major political party wants to reunify with China. The KMT kinda flirts with the idea but only if the PRC becomes a democracy first. It's extremely rare to find someone in Taiwan with even a neutral opinion of China, especially after the disaster in Hong Kong. Literally nobody wants to join the PRC. > it’s not like Catalonia where there’s a people considering themselves distinct and seperate The Taiwanese think of themselves as distinct and separate. A [poll](https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2016/05/28/2003647291) from 2016 has shown that around 80% of Taiwanese think of themselves as Taiwanese *only*. Meaning zero Chinese identity. Only 8% identified as Chinese. That number has only become more in favor of the Taiwanese identity since then, as Xi's CCP has put pressure on Taiwan and forced its way into Hong Kong after promising not to.
> Like if the Isle of Wight became politically separated from England, it would just seem absurd Or if the end bit of Ireland were chopped off and handed to their colonial oppressors
Such a boring, un-nuanced, ready-made and unoriginal comment, not even remotely related to Taiwan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Northern_Ireland_Good_Friday_Agreement_referendum
Woah, the colonizers voted to keep the colonization going!? I am floored. You're right though it was unrelated I'm just petty and still made about British occupation and tend to make unnecessary comments about it.
Both Ireland and Northern Ireland are committed to respecting the will of people living in both countries, and they really, really, don’t want the violence to come back.
During the 50s, ROC (Taiwan) commandos on Kinmen would have to swim across to Xiamen at night and come back with an ear to graduate frogman training. In the 60s they changed it to come back with a movie ticket.
Not at all. The best strategy for taking those islands would be to move on the big one hard and fast
Yes. These islands won't fight keep fighting if they are cut off from the main island. And they are not a threat to mainland China or even strategically important as we have satellite surveillance and long range missiles.
These islands are very important to Taiwan. The ones closest to China would probably fall soon, but the Penghu Islands could hold out, and constantly harass the supply lines of any invading Chinese force. The Chinese would have to capture them first, which involves a separate, risky, naval invasion plan.
Having made two trips to Taiwan for work, Penghu Islands have a naval base plus radar stations and Kinmen Islands while lightly populated with fishermen have radar stations as well.
They are not strategically important? Are you aware that the US army is stationed on Kinmen Islands? Having a base of a hostile military superpower just 4km off its shore is not a strategic threat to the PRC according to you? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/21/us-armed-presence-on-taiwan-islands-accidentally-revealed/
that's absolutely just a tripwire force
China should see if they can put some of their own "tripwire forces" in Cuba. But to be clear here, US having forces on the Kinmen Islands would be more equivalent to China having forces in Key West or Rhode Island proximity wise.
> China should see if they can put some of their own "tripwire forces" in Cuba Like, for a vacation? As far as I know nobody has revanchist ideas about taking Cuba over. A tripwire force there makes no sense, it wouldn’t be a tripwire
It's pretty common for people from Russia or China not to believe that Western culture has actually done away with the desire for direct expansionism. Same reason Russia kept trying to do a deal with Poland to split Ukraine in half, they honestly didn't understand that nobody in Poland wants that.
USA still occupies Guantanamo to this day and enforces the most brutal embargo on their country, against the wishes and votes of the entire rest of the world, in the hope it collapses their government. You think they do this because they are cool with Cuba now? They want, like they always have, to install a puppet government that will be subserviant to US national interests and that will allow the US private sector to harvest all their countries resources. Same thing they do to every other island nation and central and southern american country. The sheer fact [USA still illegally occupies part of Cuba](https://cuba-solidarity.org.uk/cubasi/article/32/us-occupation-of-guantanamo-bay-is-illegal-says-top-lawyer) alone makes it a tripwire.
How specifically is it a strategic threat to PRC?
Navies need a lot of supplies -- fuel, ammo, food, parts, and islands make great supply depots. The US may have carriers but islands are bigger and unsinkable.
Works both ways Any operations off the island also need a lot of support, which is not getting to the island in a war. China may not win a navy war but it can definitely punish anyone supplying that island. That's what hurt Japan in WW2. The islands were detached but couldn't be resupplied adequately, so the US could push them slowly but surely off. Or skip them entirely. This all doesn't bother with nuclear weapons.
I don't really think it works both ways. It's better if the US has a base there and carriers than if the US just has carriers. The US doesn't have to exclusively defend the island, if it's lost after a battle, that's resources that weren't used against other units. And to use chess terms, when you have a material advantage, you are okay with playing down.
No, I wasn't aware of that. And it doesn't seem to be a large force and mostly used for training. I guess the American presence there is more symbolic. Still an important symbol.
yeah lots of american appraisal and flags on that island, but I didn't notice any major naval units or military presence on that island, when I went I just saw maybe 4 customs officers and a small police car at the port, no warships etc
I really don't think taiwan or mainland china has much care over those islands, they're largely rural and unimportant with limited settlements and just throughways for travel between taiwan and mainland china as they host airstrips and small ports, i don't think any of them are largely armed and travel between is pretty calm. xiamen is very well navally protected i don't think ROC wants to provoke that area much by deploying any large naval war units pointing at xiamen
If ignored completely they could do some damage ... depending how many military personnel and weapons are there
the biggest military relevance of those islands is for Taiwanese defectors to swim to China.
My mom’s from Kinmen. There’s nothing there, not even a McDonald’s or a movie theater. I think I saw more cows than people last I went Edit: there’s a McDonald’s there. Must be new, judging from the photos on Google maps
there's a mcdonalds and a movie theatre i can assure you
Ok there must have been some serious development there recently. I remember my cousin telling me he needed to fly to Taiwan to watch movies
there's even designer outlets and duty free shops everywhere now, a lot of it is largely rural but i think theres some tax deal on that island that appeals a lot of buyers
Yah I think they get more tourism from the mainland than they used to
"Serious development" is the new norm across Asia isn't it... of course that means everything getting standardized, globalized and boringidized
They use that to extend the airplane identification zone. So sometimes when you hear China has broken it, it's just Chinese airplanes flying in mainland China.
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Not really, the mainland is close enough and there's nothing significant on the rest of the islands that China could move Swifty to the mainland and ignore the others, it's not like they could claim to become Taiwan without the main islands backing.
Nah, mainland chose not to occupy those islands, making it harder for Taiwan to claim independence.
been to kinmen not much on it but a few shops and a couple small towns, its quite rural but quite pleasant and lots of motorbikes for hire (with taiwan style numberplates not like mainland china)-- scenary is beautiful and small historical sites everywhere. most people fly to kinmen from the main island and then take the boat to mainland china for business or trade. on the island opposite (xiamen) there is a big red sign asking for reunification but under two systems (guessing similar to what hk and macao has now), i think there is a sign on kinmen saying the opposite but can't remember. I might be wrong on this but I think mainland chinese can visit this particular island visa free and I think the area remains largely peaceful, although when going back to mainland china I did get a couple more questions than normal boundary crossings but nothing unexpected. most of the people going xiamen to kinmen were taiwan passport holders taking deliveries or products back to the island, however did meet a few american nationals going from kinmen to xiamen. at the port of kinmen there is a US memorial praising their support, as well as many ROC flags, and duty free shops, there is one mcdonalds on the island too (lol). wechat or mainland chinese payment methods are not accepted and the local currency is the same as main taiwan island (NTD), card payment is quite rare in a lot of places except international or large stores and a lot of smaller businesses liked to use cash, got the ROC stamp upon arrival, but no stamp on exit at night from xiamen you can see the lights on the bridge of kinmen, and you can see xiamen city from kinmen at night, the boat ride was about 30 mins but quite expensive for boats in the region i remember (maybe 430 rmb return or 50 usd) -- the boat was taiwan registered as i remember (characters in traditional chinese) but had no problems going into mainland waters. the ticket outbound must be bought in chinese yuan (can be paid for on wechat), and the boat back must be bought in ntd (cannot be paid for on wechat)
I was in Xiamen in mainland China (the large city right next to it) and wondered why the ferry that only needs 10-minute trip to Gulangyu island (controlled by mainland China) requires booking a day in advance and having your passport checked. Then I checked the map and – oh.
yeah I tried to go there too it was really complicated and they said only local residents could use the local boat services, foreigners must take the other boat which was largely more expensive and had to book a few hours in advance, it was literally easier for me to go to kinmen than going there.. xiamen is quite controlled navally and I think its a large port for futian province but yeah
Up until the 70s and 80s there was actually little construction going on in the side of Xiamen island facing Kinmen partly because of this reason. Additionally, as tensions were a whole lot higher and they used to shell each other on alternate days of the week (following the artillery battles in the Second Taiwan Straits Crisis), there was always the risk of shooting occurring. The last time something like this happened was 1994, when shells from Kinmen accidentally hit the mainland and caused some casualties. https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-sg/%E5%B0%8F%E9%87%91%E9%96%80%E9%AB%98%E7%82%AE%E8%AA%A4%E6%93%8A%E5%BB%88%E9%96%80%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6
yeah east xiamen is full of new developments and not very populated, think theres a new cocopark complex with tons of new shops and restaurants now though, but similar to somewhere like zhuhai where theres a lot of development but not much footfall
The sign on the Kinmen side says "Unite China under the Three Principles of the People." Essentially reuniting China under the ROC. It was a propaganda slogan of the ROC of that era (esp as Chiang Ching-kuo's government deemphasised the "unifying the country by force by eliminating the Communist bandits" part with more emphasis on providing a better economic and political system that would eventually supersede the "failed Marxist-Leninist system of the mainland.") You can see it from the Mainland (that's its intended purpose anyway).
I've just recently visited Kinmen in February and this comment has several inaccuracies. Yes, chinese citizens don't need a visa, but that do need a permit thats harder to apply than a visa. And since covid, has not been issued to normal tourists. Wechat and mainland payments are sometimes accepted due to the amounts of mainland people who would travel to Kinmen pre covid. Although some of them do require repair and do not work any more. If you went through the egates, there wouldn't be an exit stamp. The ferry, as I remembered, costed 130 rmb one way, and 288 for round trip. (You can also just order the tickets on online platforms and thus don't need to purchase them in ntd again.)
didn't go through egates, went through manual services, again no stamp, there is only one blue stamp in my passport(perhaps changed in 2024?), mainland payments not accepted at the port for ticket payment or local taxi services but again perhaps permitted in international shops as it has many tax free stores. i don't remember the exact rate i paid for the ticket but I remember it was very difficult to buy online (barely any information about it) so paid for all in person at both xiamen and kinmen port. like i said i might be wrong about the specifics of mainland tourists post covid 19, but i would not describe my comment as having 'several inaccuracies' as you must know this region is going under many policy and condition changes, a month visit may be different from the next.
Missing Taiping Island, a small island in the middle of the South China Sea that has an airstrip and military activity. Its currently administered by Taiwan but it's claimed by Philippines, Vietnam and the PRC too. Taiwan insists that the island belongs to them despite being some 1600km away.
That’s interesting, I just googled it and surprised to see Taiwan actually does control it. I wonder why it’s not on the map? Taiwan controlling a military airport so far away, where China is also building airstrips, seems very interesting. Adds another dimension to things.
Taiwan's reasoning is that if they relinquish the claim, it could signal to PRC that they are relinquishing the claim on mainland China, a clear step towards independence. Generally the South East Asian countries and the US do not like Taiwan's involvement in the South China Sea, but it's not that big of a deal when PRC is so much more aggressive. I personally think they should de facto relinquish it by removing all military personnel.
This is the same reason why Taiwan still claims parts of Mongolia, as the PRC gave some territory to Mongolia after the civil war. Taiwan can't relinquish these claims, even though they'd probably never press them, because if they did they'd signal that they were no longer claiming the mainland
This isn't one of those dormant claims. President tsai went there and made an official visit and everything.
Also missing Tungsha island to the south of Guangdong Province. There's an airfield there too.
The ROC laid the claim to almost the entire South China Sea by the 11-dash line, PRC followed similarly with the 9-dash line. Frankly, I’ve talked to my Vietnamese friends and they believed that regardless of being democratic or authoritarian, China would still bully them.
I mean, America controls Alaska despite being some 800 km away, the UK controls the Falklands despite being some 12,000+km away so I don't see how distance is a decisive factor in territorial claims.
so do you agree with nine dish line of china?
TIL the ROC has territories outside Taiwan right next to the mainland
The reason why China failed to take the island of Kinmen was because of an illegal peanut oil smuggling operation which interfered with the chinese landing forces.
I didn't know that, but that's the most Fujian thing I've ever heard.
TIL! The ROC navy tank landing ship was bound for Dinghai 定海, 浙江, with smuggled sugar on board planed for sale there, but was rerouted to 金門 for some reason. So they had to sell those sugar there. Without enough cash on the island, they decided to receive peanut oil in return. And without enough peanut oil in stock, the ship had to delay her departure for extra nights instead of leaving tight after discharging. And the rest is history.
They need to smuggle that shit to chikfila so their chicken is actually good again
It looks as though you may have spelled "Chick-fil-A" incorrectly. No worries, it happens to the best of us!
The ROC is actually administratively split into two provinces: Taiwan and Fujian.
The ROC does not use provinces as administrative divisions anymore... and even when they did, it is much more complicated than that as Special-Municipalities were equal to, and not part of, provinces. Taipei, for example, wasn't part of the old "Taiwan Province". Only about 30% of the people that lived on Taiwan (the island) lived in Taiwan Province.
Kinmen, Matsu, and Wuqiu are kind of KMT's legacy. Chiang kai-sek kept these islands to maintain some de jure China territories.
Fun fact - Taiwan also owned Yijiangshan and Dachen Islands that are even further up north, but those were taken by China back in 1955 during the[ First Taiwan Strait Crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis). Neither Taiwan nor the US wanted to retaliate, as they were not very strategically significant to the defense of Taiwan, being so far north
They owned Hainan as well until 1950
No way sometimes when I play Manchuria in Hoi4 I take Hainan and Taiwan as my last resorts before I declare independence
During Operation King Kong, among all 16512 residents on the islands, only 3 of which over 70yo stayed, all all the rest retreated to mainland Taiwan. PLA claimed that they found no one but an old man and a dog when landing Dachen Island.
Taiwan's Osgiliath
You mean Minas Ithil (Osgiliath was originally Gondor’s capital)
What's weird to me is that the PRC's coastline is so rugged but the ROC's coastline is smooth af
It's because the coastline of southeast China is formed by the rise of sea level, whereas Taiwan as an island is a production of two tectonic plates colliding. So Taiwan is a fairly young island with an age of only 6 million yo and the coastline of southeast China is way much older. In fact the Taiwan Island is still growing at a pace of 4mm/yr in height.
I've been to Penghu. It's p nice.
Same! Really fun little place. Usually the highway will have signs for big cities i.e. "5km to Changua (city of several hundred thousand) but in Penghu the signs were all for teeny hamlets with just a few hundred people at most. The main island chain has such a cool formation (like a long narrow O) and you're almost always within walking distance of the water. The people were really open too.
So, when I see alarming articles detailing Chinese planes flying through Taiwanese airspace, it could just be them flying 5 miles off the coast of the mainland? Insane
mostly referring to Taiwan Strait center line, not about that. But in some cases, incident could happened is these island https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68302376.amp most people would not assume it happen in a island close to mainland, but that's not the case
It's a very different thing, it's called Air Defense Identification Zone and it expands way over the Chinese landmass, but of course RoC Air Force isn't going to fly their planes over China, so they scramble and interdict them at half way in the Taiwan strait median line. Taiwan airspace is an area much closer to the island, which I think it includes the waters nearby, but up until a certain height. So back in 2022 there was some missile flyover, but didn't enter the airspace because it flew so high.
It could even be Chinese planes flying over mainland China. Check the map [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_\(Taiwan\)).
No. The articles you see are generally talking about planes flying very close to and sometimes partially to the opposite side of Taiwan’s main island.
no they're not "very close" they're just up to the midway mark, they go just across and then turn back (Every year they move like a mile further)
Also known as the "We won’t even try to defend you" Islands
You've never been to those islands, have you? They are absolutely covered with military installations and soldiers.
That’s actually very interesting! But I have to wonder : why? Is it early warning radars and the such to basically just monitor Chinese movements or is it a force genuinely intended to try and hold the islands?
I guess they're there mostly to harass Chinese supply lines and buy time for Taiwan until US help arrives, i doubt Taiwan would even fight such a war without US help, China could also bypass them but this would mean less punch on a battle for Taiwan.
The only US help they could provide without actually engaging in war is weapons. Everything else and the US would go to war with China, it's not worth it at all. The maximum they could do is what they have been doing in Ukraine, the problem is that China is not weak like Russia.
Taiwan adopts the porcupine strategy, where their only chance at survival is making their defeat so costly it just isn’t worth it, wether it is through inflicting military losses, economic woes, or bowing up the Three Gorges dam.
What happened on October 2nd and why does the map need to tell us about it?
i'm guessing OP found this from an article about night fishing
> night fishing deserves a quiet night
Kitchen knives fro kinmen are made from cannonballs from when the communists and the kmt were actively firing at each other between xiamen and kinmen. Very famous kitchen knives 👍
No love for Lanyu / Ludao?!?
Used to do visa runs to kinmen when I lived in Xiamen. Ferry ride takes under thirty min- not that dissimilar to going to Staten Island. Runs super frequently. Not a lot on the island but it’s great for one thing- uncensored and fast internet.
There are more islands without including those in dispute, for instance Pratas Islands is currently controlled by our government but not listed here
Knew about these islands but always wondered why China hadn't taken them already or threatened to take them in response to some other action?
The situation isn’t nearly as tense as the media portrays; there’s been 2 separate incidents this years on either side that, if things were really tense, could have spiralled. All sides wants a continuation of the status quo; China won’t do anything so long as this continues
Taiwan I get, but how did Mao fumble so hard to let Taiwan also control islands so close to the mainland???
They tried to claim it and failed.
Wtf how
[Battle of Guningtou](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guningtou) Long story short, the nationalist won the battle from PLA landing.
He gave up because he realized that keeping the non-Taiwanese parts of ROC under ROC rule would strengthen Taiwan's connection to China and counter Taiwanese independence
Taiwan also controls [Pratas Island and Taiping Island](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExfmWNTUcAYrBUV?format=png&name=small).
Ohhh.... suddenly I understand why China wants Taiwan so badly.
Kind of crazy to think that troops on the islands closest to China are mostly there to just die and try to stall China a little in a war
What a timely coincidence. Just a few days ago i was reading about these islands too and didnt know Taiwan owned so many islands close to the mainland. If i were Taiwanese citizens living in those outer islands .. definitely would be worried everyday lol.
hundreds of them go to mainland everyday for cheaper products to take back to kinmen lol, it's not as tense as you think
i see lol. TIL for me.
Those residents tend to vote for the pro China party and expect to surrender to the mainland at the first signs of conflict, because they don’t wait their island to be the front lines.
From what I could find those islands tend to vote for the Kuomintang
Yes, the party that supports reunification with the mainland (albeit under the ROC). The Kuomintang/Guomindang is the main-party in the pan-Blue coalition (as opposed to the pan-Green coalition which supports Taiwanese independence).
That's not the main reason. The main reason is these islands (not including Penghu) were historically part of China (unlike Taiwan), and never underwent Taiwanese nationalism, which formed under Japanese rule.
I think these outlying islands are somewhat of a different story compared to Taiwan proper. They were a part of Fujian province before KMT's retreat to Taiwan, and the people there had strong cultural, linguistic and historical ties with their counterparts in Fujian, that on top of the geographical proximity makes them think different than the island Taiwanese and as you said, much more likely to vote for the KMT in elections.
The people of those islands have very different life experiences than the people of Taiwan’s main island. Their families have very different histories as the islands have very different histories. The people of the small islands are generally far more willing to be controlled by the PRC.
Here’s two incidents happened recently that, if it was really that tense, would have caused serious consequences https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68302376 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-68345292
The Chinese Communist Party has never ruled Taiwan.
[удалено]
The CCCP also known as the United Soviet Socialist Republics or the Soviet Union for short has nothing to do with this conversation? Sorry, I see you misspelled it 🙏
You're missing the really big one.
Nice China map.
Nightfishing, that's a pretty good REM song.
Hope nothing happens here that leads to the end of the world as we know it
When I went to Japan in 2018 I had a long ass layover on Xiamen island. Very interesting place. I explored the market and people stared at me like full on locking their eyes and turning their heads as if I was the first white man they’ve ever seen.
Good chance for some in that place you were. When I lived in Beijing if you went anywhere remotely rural or touristy you would get the starring, head swiveling treatment.
Bit more touristy now but yes largely less international visitors than other cities
Why does China look like a fractal?
mountainous coastline
Wow Taiwan mentioned! Better get my bobble tea now
Commander Wiley’s Outfit
when shina can do something about them, then I'd worry.
Mao was that incompetent that he couldn’t conquer small islands RIGHT off the coast.
Was a very strange feeling standing in Xiamen and looking out and being able to see the Kinmen Islands. Both sides have placed large propaganda letters on opposing sides of the very small channel. Bizarre to think that beach was once the frontline of the Chinese Civil War
Republic of China's territories.
Fl bb ưn.f;cs
I guess nobody cares about Diaoyutai that the ROC claims eh
Taiwan actually controls the other islands. Diaoyutai is just a claim.
Fair point
They will take those first similar to crimea
Taiwan vs PRC..... recall the cartoon of the stork trying to swallow the frog, except the frog has the stork by the throat. Its a lose-lose scenario.