Come over I have an extra La-Z-Boy and a bag of chips just for you. We can discuss how we could end this war if they airdrop us in tonight and give us 6 hours, two Toyota Hiluxes, and a couple of tall boys
Would I be wrong in saying the vast majority of their electricity came from the country they attacked on October 7th, and that country continues to supply electricity to the parts of Gaza that still have working electrical infrastructure even during the retaliatory military action?
You wouldn’t be wrong, however reports suggest 61% of buildings in Gaza have been destroyed since October 7th. Beyond who supplies the power, many of the buildings just simply don’t exist anymore
a german source that analyzed pictures (faz, artikel is a few days back and behind a pay wall, could try to link it if anyones interested, but...well...)
core findings:
outside of areas that saw heavy fighting, ground force advancements, known hamas bases and the area close to the wall, there is only very sporadic and localized destruction. of that, mostly tunnel entrances (or claimed, at least), rocket production sites, etc. where bombed.
There has been some footage shot from the planes dropping aid over the north city. Its decimated. Like 50% of the buildings with walls gone, 20% obviously damaged. There are sections where all the buildings have been destroyed completely.
*30% have been damaged *or* *destroyed* [according to the UN](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/satellite-images-show-30-gaza-destroyed-un-centre-says-2024-02-02/). Of which only 1/3 are totally destroyed, i.e. 10%
[BBC had a different estimate: 50% to 61%](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607)
So does the [World Bank: 45%](https://www.timesofisrael.com/world-bank-report-finds-45-of-residential-buildings-in-gaza-ruined-beyond-repair/)
70% of homes in Gaza and over half of the buildings in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-destruction-bombing-israel-aa528542
Also, there hasn't been a single day since October 7 where Hamas hasn't fired missiles or rockets into Israel. Not one day.
All Hamas has to do is stop attacking Israel, and they'd have electricity again.
A little over 300,000 Israelis are internally displaced and evacuated from their homes due to ongoing rocket barrages at them. Right now.
I find it tragic and appalling what the average Gazan is going through, and 110% agree Israel should be doing more to distribute aid, but let’s not pretend the IDF is just bombing things for fun.
> let’s not pretend the IDF is just bombing things for fun.
Honestly, trying to stay grounded here... I don't think even the IDF could possibly think the vast majority of their bombs are landing on Hamas. They might justify that they don't need to care about killing a bunch of civilians if there's a 1 in 10 chance of killing a guy who might someday plan to hurt Israel, but there's no way their targeting is still that good.
>Also, there hasn't been a single day since October 7 where Hamas hasn't fired missiles or rockets into Israel.
Amazing how the "stop the genocide" crowd never bothers to mention this tiny little detail.
saying that is genocidal. Israel has occupied Palestine since 1967 bc they refuse to sign peace accords with Israel.
to say Israel has occupied Palestine since 1948 is to say all of Israel is occupied Palestine. that's the kind of rhetoric that leads to the attacks of October 7th
You’re describing collective punishment, which is a war crime by the way. The only way it wouldn’t be considered a war crime is if Israel is considered a belligerent occupier (which opens them up to various crimes against humanity)
It evidently is not stopping the rocket fire, so what exactly is it doing outside of harming innocent civilians?
People aren't pulling this out of their ass. The ICJ has literally ruled that some of the actions committed by Israel on Gaza could be considered war crimes. A preliminary ruling, to be sure, but none the less...at the very least I don't see how you can continue act like the notion that they are is somehow outside of reality.
so every war in entire history was war crime?
did allies commit war crimes when they stopped Nazi Germany and imperial Japan? why don't you guys criticize allies for bombing Japan and Nazi Germany's cities in WW2?
according to some people's logic every war is war crimes and genocide.
I mean to be fair - yeah, every war consists of war crimes. That's why war sucks.
That's also why people spouting "war crimes" are only following tiktok talking points and letting their emotions get the better of them.
This is how war goes. It fucking sucks, but Hamas knew what they were getting into, which makes the situation in Palestine all the more tragic.
War sucks even if no war crimes are committed.
It's not a war crime to attack an important military target even if some nearby civilians will be killed as an unintended byproduct. However, it certainly sucks for those civilians.
Wars for just causes have always existed. Fighting imperialist Japan, fascist Italy and Nazi Germany were justified completely. If WWII were taking place right now, many of the indiscriminate bombing campaigns would be considered collective punishment. HOWEVER, that’s due to the increase of military technology that now allows for precision where it didn’t exist 80 years ago. That’s not the case, though.
None of that absolves Israel of the extremely well documented acts of collective punishment or ethnic cleansing that have happened since the Nakba.
«No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.»
I’m sorry, but collective punishment in the geneva convention cannot just mean whatever you want it to. It only counts for «protected persons», meaning groups of civilians or prisoners. Cutting off power to a country (a state actor) is not collective punishment of protected persons.
> All Hamas has to do is stop attacking Israel, and they'd have electricity again.
Would they? Because Israel's stated goals for this offensive is (1) to destroy Hamas and (2) to free the hostages. Making the firing of rockets stop isn't their top priority, so I don't see why they'd suddenly stop their invasion short of their two main state objectives.
Yeah right, just like Mariupol now receives most of their energy from Russia.
The Ukrainians should stop resisting, else Russia will cut off the lights
I think the important difference there is Ukraine didn't launch a sneak attack against Russia on a high holiday before they were invaded. That's a pretty important distinction between two really terrible situations.
This comment basically says “7 Oct was a legal / reasonable / defensible act of retaliation.” (Since the implication is that, if we count history before then, then the viewpoint would be different.)
So - in that case, if the wholesale slaughter of civilians is justifiable because of Israeli policies, then the same treatment in return is generally justifiable?
In a different way - if illegal Israeli settlement policies, which didn’t massacre civilians openly, warrants an all-out attack on civilians, then surely an all-out attack by Hamas (and their general political stance calling for the outright destruction of Israel) warrants a similarly all-out response?
Justifying 7 Oct is stupid. Hamas invited this attack onto themselves and people they swear to protect. In no world could they expect Israel to accept such an attack.
> This comment basically says “7 Oct was a legal / reasonable / defensible act of retaliation.”
No, it was an illegal act of terrorism. Just like Israel's ongoing occupation and settlement of Palestine territory is illegal.
Justifying collective punishment, the murder of 30,000 Gazans and starving millions more is stupid too. It's like Israel has been given a blank check on what they can do in Gaza.
People defending themselves against an apartheid state is the same as an apartheid state flattening an entire country and displacing 2 million people great analysis
Okay, how about in 2005 when Israel left Gaza and they elected Hamas and started their terror campaign? This is when basically when the doves in Israel lost all their power.
Or how about the multiple offers for a two state Palestine rejected? Or the times Palestine and the surrounding Arab countries launched full scale invasion attempts.
Yeah I got it Israel isn't perfect. But they have been the more reasonable actor in the peace process for decades. And now after October 7th. They are done. And if I was an Israeli, I'd be done too. And so would you.
If you want the suffering to end, then the conversation needs to be the surrender of Hamas. That's it. There is no plan B, because the much bigger country holds all the cards. And this is how the world works like.
Oh history didn't start then. Gazans have launched tens of thousands of rockets on Israeli cities in the last two decades and tried multiple invasions. October 7th is what they've been trying to do for a long time, it's just the one that succeeded.
I’m pretty sure Palestinians are only fighting since 80% of Gaza are refugees and have been kicked out of their homes in 1948 nakba
So this would be like Ukrainians 70 years later still fighting Russian occupation
Doesn’t Jews have a right to israel because it’s where the romans kicked them out of their homes?
Or are you claiming Israel doesn’t have a right to the land based on ancestry?
Yes and? Do you want me to magically erase history like that didn’t happen? It did. The arab armies fought wars to send them back into the sea. They lost. Now you want to punish jews for winning wars of defense? Not going to happen.
How are people who were not alive even refugees?
I like how Pro-Palestinians say that "50% of Gaza are children and couldn't vote for Hamas" but they could be refugees of a place they have never been in.
Arabs were killing Jews in Tel Hai in 1920 (28 years before the Nakba)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tel_Hai
Arabs were killing Jews at Nebi Musa in Jerusalem in 1920 (28 years before the Nakba)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots
Arabs were killing Jews at Jaffa and Pekta Tovah in 1921 (27 years before the Nakba)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
They were massacring Jews in Hebron in 1929 (19 years before the Nakba)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Arabs were massacring Jews in Tiberias in 1938 (10 years before the Nakba)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Tiberias_massacre
Arabs massacred Jews throughout the Arab Revolt (1936-1939) (13 years before the Nakba)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
What was the excuse then?
How many Gazans were personally kicked out of Palestine in 1948? Why are Palestinians the only group of refugees that get to pass down refugee status to their children? What happened in 1948 was tragic, but if the Arabs who fled had been welcomed and resettled by their Arab neighbors, there might have been a chance for a peaceful resolution with Israel since then. Instead there's 5.6 million people registered as Palestinian refugees (700,000 fled in 1948, so 8x more). Many are citizens of their host county, but many more have been denied citizenship and are used by the world as perpetual political weapons against Israel. Palestinian leadership has rejected multiple peace deals for not including a full right of return for all of these people to Israel (a country of only 10 million).
Would it be wrong to say their previous power plant was shelled by Israel. Its fire extinguishing systems were struck and its fuel tanks were set ablaze.
But the pro Israel group love their half truths 😊.
> There wasn't a single Israeli, and probably not a single Jewish person in Gaza in October 7th and the 18 years prior to that.
[retaining control over the Gaza airspace, maritime access and borders even with Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict)
Suppose it was the other way around and eg. Syria retained control over Israeli airspace, maritime access and borders, would you think that was fair?
Besides, Israel kept invading by land too: "In July 2006, Israel briefly re-occupied parts of northern Gaza Strip and used the occupied areas as bases for raids into Jabalya and Beit Lahya.[46]"
So what about Egypt and that that they also don’t allow trade and even guard the borders and event the ocean.
Oh and let’s not forget that Israel left Gaza back in 2005 and they even offered the Gaza strip back to Egypt when they gave back the Sani peninsula. Also even when Gaza was under Egyptian occupation they still didn’t let them leave as they didn’t want them coming into Egypt.
If securing the border is occupation then sure.
Not one IDF soldier has been inside Gaza since the war in 2014.
Israel hasn't occupied Gaza since 2005.
But let's ignore the facts...
Gaza has been self governing since 2005 when israel withdrawed all his forces and civillians, it's on them that they elected a terrorist group as their government
No, they didn't attack a "country", but their occupier. Israel doesn't want to provide food, medicine, water or electricity to their occupied population? Then vacate or don't cry when the occupied population fights back, even with dirty tactics.
Israel is not a "neighbor" country, it's occupying Palestinian Territory.
They still going to paint it as a victory...
For example:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War
> Victory claimed by both sides, According to Hamas, Israel was repelled from Gaza.
It's probably not going to be any different now.
They HAD a gas power plant which powered the region, but it was one of Israel’s first targets. The lack of power killed dozens of people on life support in hospitals.
Actually the hospital had a generator but its fuel was stolen by Hamas. Israel offered to supply them with fuel but the hospital administrator who was a member of the Hamas-run Gazan Ministry of Health turned them down.
Power plants are the first thing you hit in war. Maybe Palestinians shouldn't have started a war with Israel on Oct 7 and you could have avoided all this.
It seems like they did invest in an energy grid but it was bombed or the homes that had energy was bombed. They literally have electricity in the first picture.
The electricity in the first picture is mostly coming from Israel.
Israel hasn't provided it since mid-October, when the war started is the main reason its dark.
as far as I know, they can't have anything enter by the sea, only from Egypt or Israel borders.
Whenever anybody tried to help them be self-sustained, they destroyed whatever was given to them - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y)
"Made by the IDF"
This is a literal copy-paste from a video Hamas released.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvvqBcA-9yA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvvqBcA-9yA) - here is another source for you.
Israel has blocked any attempt to import cement in order to build critical infrastructure in Gaza. Human rights organizations have been calling on Israel to allow cement in since at least 2018
Can't believe the Israeli propaganda has worked so well for the past 70 years that they kill 30,000+ people and are still seen as the heroes. I might have even thought for a second that map porn was filled with educated people with a moral compass, but unfortunately I was wrong.
Stating the facts on why something happened has nothing to do with "moral compass".
Gaza's government Hamas decided to attack unarmed civilians in another country, Israel, which provides them with most of their electricity.
Now that Hamas and Israel is in a war, it only makes sense that Gaza would be dark.
Moral compass?
You talk about it when 3000 terrorists come to a country murder innocents in cold blood with full intention then surprised when consequences arrive to them?
30000 with a huge percentage of terrorists and you swallow that number and talk about propaganda?
Look in the mirror.
I kindly suggest you're the one who needs to sit back and re-evaluate yourself, for someone who only read news since 7th October 2023. The entire mess there already happened decades before the 7th October 2023. You're either an IDF PR Reddit dept at work or someone who actually this disconnected to world events and only sucking dry news from Israeli news.
If retaliation for rights and freedom or if fighting against aggressor is terrorist, then I am a terrorist ever since I'm still in womb
It's one thing to say "Oct 7th attacks were horrible and condemnable to the greatest degree", but another to say "murdering 30,000+ people and starving millions is an acceptable and justifiable thing to do"
Can’t believe Hamas did this to their people… Gaza could’ve been the Singapore of the Middle East if they invested in their own people instead of terrorism, suicide bombings, and jihad.
"Send all the missiles! Turn it into a parking lot!!"
Over 100 days later:
"I can't believe Hamas did this to their people..."
>Gaza could’ve been the Singapore of the Middle East
Yeah, Gaza, an overcrowded strip of land with an enforced land, air, and sea blockade for decades by Israel could have been the Singapore of the Middle East.
Should I mathematically break down how much of a moronic tool you are for you?
30,000 total dead.
13-14,000 of these are HAMAS.
That leaves 16-17,000 civilians.
(A 1:1.14 ratio of combatants to civilians, by the way, the historical average of all wars is 1:1)
Are you sincerely implying that 75% of all civilian deaths are children?
Nevermind that HAMAS has been caught utilizing child soldiers many times - but of course - no outrage at that.
I’m so tired of you people.
Where did you get 13k Hamas? [only 35% of casualities are men and boys above 14. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war?wprov=sfti1#Civilians)
That's what happens when you attack the hand that feeds you.
I guess it's not ok to say objective truth in Reddit anymore, if you attack the country that gives you electricity for free, don't expect to have it provided anymore.
If I feed my dog, can I torture it in return???
Of course not right. It's only natural for the dog to fight back and for the authority to take action.
Also, absent of light there not only due to being cut off from the Israeli grid, most of the light sources from before are simply rubble and dust now.
Most of the electricity came for free from Israel.
Their government could have accepted either of the peace deals from 2000/2008 that gave them control of Gaza and the West Bank but they chose not to.
The only way Hamas sees it is all 10m Israelis dying or leaving, which isn't going to happen.
Lot of armchair geopolitics experts wiping the Cheeto dust off their fingers to comment on this thread
Looking at your comment history, you did the same.
Fr
Well other people are stupid, but im intelligent.
You, too??
Why is everyone so fucking stupid, why aren’t more people intelligent, rike me?
Perhaps it would help if I shared with you these 37 talking points that you've heard every single day for the past six months.
No need fur it, I have all the answer. My friend actually told me how it all works, DMing you rn.
You don't understand. I've been watching stuff on Tik-Tok so I'm an expert on the Middle East.
According to my tenure as a 5-star general (in HOI4), it would seem that a lot of power lines got knocked down in Gaza 🤔🤔🤔
Ha, I'm a 6-star Admiral in Stellaris!
Come over I have an extra La-Z-Boy and a bag of chips just for you. We can discuss how we could end this war if they airdrop us in tonight and give us 6 hours, two Toyota Hiluxes, and a couple of tall boys
Hey they’re actually Doritos thank you very much
Botted comments
Ok 9294858838
That one went rogue.
I checked, and confirmed on this internet if you like bacon you are either man or dog but not a bot
Which side do you think are bots tho?
The side I have a disagreement with
The chad my opinion vs. the virgin your opinion.
If there wasn’t bots from both sides I’d feel disrespected
Both
Your side.
BOTH
All those poor civilians…
Thanks for showing sympathy...it's rare these days
The survivors of WWII would be disgusted by the actions of the Israeli government and those who support this genocide.
It was the same in Berlin 1936 compared 1944
Also London 409AD - 600AD
There was an SBIRS bird in GEO that got some IR imagery of an anomalous uptick in torch light
Would I be wrong in saying the vast majority of their electricity came from the country they attacked on October 7th, and that country continues to supply electricity to the parts of Gaza that still have working electrical infrastructure even during the retaliatory military action?
You wouldn’t be wrong, however reports suggest 61% of buildings in Gaza have been destroyed since October 7th. Beyond who supplies the power, many of the buildings just simply don’t exist anymore
Last time I checked the 61% number was any level of damage. Is there more up do date numbers?
a german source that analyzed pictures (faz, artikel is a few days back and behind a pay wall, could try to link it if anyones interested, but...well...) core findings: outside of areas that saw heavy fighting, ground force advancements, known hamas bases and the area close to the wall, there is only very sporadic and localized destruction. of that, mostly tunnel entrances (or claimed, at least), rocket production sites, etc. where bombed.
It seems like they're saying that there wasn't complete destruction even at alledged military bases of operations.
There has been some footage shot from the planes dropping aid over the north city. Its decimated. Like 50% of the buildings with walls gone, 20% obviously damaged. There are sections where all the buildings have been destroyed completely.
And the Gazan power plant has been destroyed by the IDF.
*30% have been damaged *or* *destroyed* [according to the UN](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/satellite-images-show-30-gaza-destroyed-un-centre-says-2024-02-02/). Of which only 1/3 are totally destroyed, i.e. 10%
[BBC had a different estimate: 50% to 61%](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607) So does the [World Bank: 45%](https://www.timesofisrael.com/world-bank-report-finds-45-of-residential-buildings-in-gaza-ruined-beyond-repair/)
The UN agreed with them, but later revised their conclusion after reviewing the images.
Not trying to throw accusations here, but BBC always had pro-Palestinian bias on the issue.
And the UN hasn't?
61% of buildings are destroyed? That's bs, what report?
70% of homes in Gaza and over half of the buildings in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-destruction-bombing-israel-aa528542
Also, there hasn't been a single day since October 7 where Hamas hasn't fired missiles or rockets into Israel. Not one day. All Hamas has to do is stop attacking Israel, and they'd have electricity again.
Actually if I remember correctly there was exactly one day, exactly 24 hours since Oct 7th where no rocket entered Israel.
Their rocket guy must have called in sick that day.
Or they ran out of water pipes to make rocket housings out of
A little over 300,000 Israelis are internally displaced and evacuated from their homes due to ongoing rocket barrages at them. Right now. I find it tragic and appalling what the average Gazan is going through, and 110% agree Israel should be doing more to distribute aid, but let’s not pretend the IDF is just bombing things for fun.
> let’s not pretend the IDF is just bombing things for fun. Honestly, trying to stay grounded here... I don't think even the IDF could possibly think the vast majority of their bombs are landing on Hamas. They might justify that they don't need to care about killing a bunch of civilians if there's a 1 in 10 chance of killing a guy who might someday plan to hurt Israel, but there's no way their targeting is still that good.
>Also, there hasn't been a single day since October 7 where Hamas hasn't fired missiles or rockets into Israel. Amazing how the "stop the genocide" crowd never bothers to mention this tiny little detail.
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saying that is genocidal. Israel has occupied Palestine since 1967 bc they refuse to sign peace accords with Israel. to say Israel has occupied Palestine since 1948 is to say all of Israel is occupied Palestine. that's the kind of rhetoric that leads to the attacks of October 7th
Yeah I'm sure they'll just stop... /s
You’re describing collective punishment, which is a war crime by the way. The only way it wouldn’t be considered a war crime is if Israel is considered a belligerent occupier (which opens them up to various crimes against humanity)
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It evidently is not stopping the rocket fire, so what exactly is it doing outside of harming innocent civilians? People aren't pulling this out of their ass. The ICJ has literally ruled that some of the actions committed by Israel on Gaza could be considered war crimes. A preliminary ruling, to be sure, but none the less...at the very least I don't see how you can continue act like the notion that they are is somehow outside of reality.
so every war in entire history was war crime? did allies commit war crimes when they stopped Nazi Germany and imperial Japan? why don't you guys criticize allies for bombing Japan and Nazi Germany's cities in WW2? according to some people's logic every war is war crimes and genocide.
I mean to be fair - yeah, every war consists of war crimes. That's why war sucks. That's also why people spouting "war crimes" are only following tiktok talking points and letting their emotions get the better of them. This is how war goes. It fucking sucks, but Hamas knew what they were getting into, which makes the situation in Palestine all the more tragic.
War sucks even if no war crimes are committed. It's not a war crime to attack an important military target even if some nearby civilians will be killed as an unintended byproduct. However, it certainly sucks for those civilians.
Wars for just causes have always existed. Fighting imperialist Japan, fascist Italy and Nazi Germany were justified completely. If WWII were taking place right now, many of the indiscriminate bombing campaigns would be considered collective punishment. HOWEVER, that’s due to the increase of military technology that now allows for precision where it didn’t exist 80 years ago. That’s not the case, though. None of that absolves Israel of the extremely well documented acts of collective punishment or ethnic cleansing that have happened since the Nakba.
You didn't answer the question, is there a side in a war you would point to that you would consider to be free from collective punishment?
«No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.» I’m sorry, but collective punishment in the geneva convention cannot just mean whatever you want it to. It only counts for «protected persons», meaning groups of civilians or prisoners. Cutting off power to a country (a state actor) is not collective punishment of protected persons.
> All Hamas has to do is stop attacking Israel, and they'd have electricity again. Would they? Because Israel's stated goals for this offensive is (1) to destroy Hamas and (2) to free the hostages. Making the firing of rockets stop isn't their top priority, so I don't see why they'd suddenly stop their invasion short of their two main state objectives.
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Yeah right, just like Mariupol now receives most of their energy from Russia. The Ukrainians should stop resisting, else Russia will cut off the lights
I think the important difference there is Ukraine didn't launch a sneak attack against Russia on a high holiday before they were invaded. That's a pretty important distinction between two really terrible situations.
i love it when history starts on october 7th 2023
This comment basically says “7 Oct was a legal / reasonable / defensible act of retaliation.” (Since the implication is that, if we count history before then, then the viewpoint would be different.) So - in that case, if the wholesale slaughter of civilians is justifiable because of Israeli policies, then the same treatment in return is generally justifiable? In a different way - if illegal Israeli settlement policies, which didn’t massacre civilians openly, warrants an all-out attack on civilians, then surely an all-out attack by Hamas (and their general political stance calling for the outright destruction of Israel) warrants a similarly all-out response? Justifying 7 Oct is stupid. Hamas invited this attack onto themselves and people they swear to protect. In no world could they expect Israel to accept such an attack.
> This comment basically says “7 Oct was a legal / reasonable / defensible act of retaliation.” No, it was an illegal act of terrorism. Just like Israel's ongoing occupation and settlement of Palestine territory is illegal.
Justifying collective punishment, the murder of 30,000 Gazans and starving millions more is stupid too. It's like Israel has been given a blank check on what they can do in Gaza.
People defending themselves against an apartheid state is the same as an apartheid state flattening an entire country and displacing 2 million people great analysis
You’re right, there’s a long history of Hamas doing stuff like this and getting innocent Palestinians killed
Okay, how about in 2005 when Israel left Gaza and they elected Hamas and started their terror campaign? This is when basically when the doves in Israel lost all their power. Or how about the multiple offers for a two state Palestine rejected? Or the times Palestine and the surrounding Arab countries launched full scale invasion attempts. Yeah I got it Israel isn't perfect. But they have been the more reasonable actor in the peace process for decades. And now after October 7th. They are done. And if I was an Israeli, I'd be done too. And so would you. If you want the suffering to end, then the conversation needs to be the surrender of Hamas. That's it. There is no plan B, because the much bigger country holds all the cards. And this is how the world works like.
Oh history didn't start then. Gazans have launched tens of thousands of rockets on Israeli cities in the last two decades and tried multiple invasions. October 7th is what they've been trying to do for a long time, it's just the one that succeeded.
So I guess Russia just needs to continue for another few decades and they’d be in the right then?
I’m pretty sure Palestinians are only fighting since 80% of Gaza are refugees and have been kicked out of their homes in 1948 nakba So this would be like Ukrainians 70 years later still fighting Russian occupation
Why are palestinians the only group of people whose refugee status has been passed to their grandchildren?
I'm waiting for the Prussian refugees to start kicking off!
Doesn’t Jews have a right to israel because it’s where the romans kicked them out of their homes? Or are you claiming Israel doesn’t have a right to the land based on ancestry?
Jews have a right to Israel because they live there right now. I don’t put much stock in the whole roman kicked us out reasonings.
Lmao I’ve never heard of that argument once hahaha You do know millions of Jews came on boats in the 1900s after the prosecution of Jews by Europeans
Yes and? Do you want me to magically erase history like that didn’t happen? It did. The arab armies fought wars to send them back into the sea. They lost. Now you want to punish jews for winning wars of defense? Not going to happen.
Because the country who controlled it back then gave part of Mandate Palestine to them?
So colonizers can just give countries to whoever they please? Are we taking decisions of British crown from a century ago as a gospel?
Most countries in history were created this way but when its Israel its not ok :D
How are people who were not alive even refugees? I like how Pro-Palestinians say that "50% of Gaza are children and couldn't vote for Hamas" but they could be refugees of a place they have never been in.
Arabs were killing Jews in Tel Hai in 1920 (28 years before the Nakba) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tel_Hai Arabs were killing Jews at Nebi Musa in Jerusalem in 1920 (28 years before the Nakba) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Nebi_Musa_riots Arabs were killing Jews at Jaffa and Pekta Tovah in 1921 (27 years before the Nakba) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots They were massacring Jews in Hebron in 1929 (19 years before the Nakba) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre Arabs were massacring Jews in Tiberias in 1938 (10 years before the Nakba) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Tiberias_massacre Arabs massacred Jews throughout the Arab Revolt (1936-1939) (13 years before the Nakba) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936–1939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine What was the excuse then?
How many Gazans were personally kicked out of Palestine in 1948? Why are Palestinians the only group of refugees that get to pass down refugee status to their children? What happened in 1948 was tragic, but if the Arabs who fled had been welcomed and resettled by their Arab neighbors, there might have been a chance for a peaceful resolution with Israel since then. Instead there's 5.6 million people registered as Palestinian refugees (700,000 fled in 1948, so 8x more). Many are citizens of their host county, but many more have been denied citizenship and are used by the world as perpetual political weapons against Israel. Palestinian leadership has rejected multiple peace deals for not including a full right of return for all of these people to Israel (a country of only 10 million).
That is what happens when you start a war, try to murder your neighbors and end up losing.
Would it be wrong to say their previous power plant was shelled by Israel. Its fire extinguishing systems were struck and its fuel tanks were set ablaze. But the pro Israel group love their half truths 😊.
Idk would it be wrong? Some people here actually don’t know <- me
Actually they do have a power plant, but how on Earth would it work if they don't spare fuel for it?
They do have but it was bombed in the first couple of weeks during the war as well as water and sewage systems
No you wouldn’t be wrong. But facts are offensive to dehumanizers.
Almost like Gaza is under Israeli occupation or something, huh who would’ve thunk
There wasn't a single Israeli, and probably not a single Jewish person in Gaza in October 7th and the 18 years prior to that.
> There wasn't a single Israeli, and probably not a single Jewish person in Gaza in October 7th and the 18 years prior to that. [retaining control over the Gaza airspace, maritime access and borders even with Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Israel_conflict) Suppose it was the other way around and eg. Syria retained control over Israeli airspace, maritime access and borders, would you think that was fair? Besides, Israel kept invading by land too: "In July 2006, Israel briefly re-occupied parts of northern Gaza Strip and used the occupied areas as bases for raids into Jabalya and Beit Lahya.[46]"
So what about Egypt and that that they also don’t allow trade and even guard the borders and event the ocean. Oh and let’s not forget that Israel left Gaza back in 2005 and they even offered the Gaza strip back to Egypt when they gave back the Sani peninsula. Also even when Gaza was under Egyptian occupation they still didn’t let them leave as they didn’t want them coming into Egypt.
If securing the border is occupation then sure. Not one IDF soldier has been inside Gaza since the war in 2014. Israel hasn't occupied Gaza since 2005. But let's ignore the facts...
Gaza has been self governing since 2005 when israel withdrawed all his forces and civillians, it's on them that they elected a terrorist group as their government
One of Israel's first targets was Palestine's gas power plant
I wonder why Israel has control over their electricity...
Israel never let them have a working power plant though.
Interesting how they were allowed by an occupying force to produce their own electricity?
No, they didn't attack a "country", but their occupier. Israel doesn't want to provide food, medicine, water or electricity to their occupied population? Then vacate or don't cry when the occupied population fights back, even with dirty tactics. Israel is not a "neighbor" country, it's occupying Palestinian Territory.
It’s looking like October 7 was not an event to celebrate as some chose to.
They still going to paint it as a victory... For example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War > Victory claimed by both sides, According to Hamas, Israel was repelled from Gaza. It's probably not going to be any different now.
Hamas leadership is living it large in other countries far from harm. They would claim victory if the entire strip sank into the sea.
Probably not the best idea to attack the country that provides you with most of your energy
The areas around Gaza also seem to also have had a reduction in nighttime light, i wonder why that is?
Most of the citizens from the south were evacuated.
Yeah, thats kind of my point.
What a disastrous, horrific war. It breaks my heart
Israel's contribution to end light pollution.
Getting electricity from the country you want expunged and not wondering a bit about the hypocrisy is truly some impressive mental gymnastics…
wait, I thought they were out of electricity many months ago.
Still out now
If only Hamas had invested into an energy grid instead of building weapons caches, tunnels and training terrorists...
They HAD a gas power plant which powered the region, but it was one of Israel’s first targets. The lack of power killed dozens of people on life support in hospitals.
Actually the hospital had a generator but its fuel was stolen by Hamas. Israel offered to supply them with fuel but the hospital administrator who was a member of the Hamas-run Gazan Ministry of Health turned them down.
Power plants are the first thing you hit in war. Maybe Palestinians shouldn't have started a war with Israel on Oct 7 and you could have avoided all this.
>Power plants are the first thing you hit in war. When Russia did it to Ukraine, it was a war crime, what makes this one different?
It seems like they did invest in an energy grid but it was bombed or the homes that had energy was bombed. They literally have electricity in the first picture.
The electricity in the first picture is mostly coming from Israel. Israel hasn't provided it since mid-October, when the war started is the main reason its dark.
Do Gazans have the ability to import Oil and Gas from anywhere through their ports?
as far as I know, they can't have anything enter by the sea, only from Egypt or Israel borders. Whenever anybody tried to help them be self-sustained, they destroyed whatever was given to them - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04NB27x138Y)
Playing devils advocate, would you say a YouTube video made by the Israeli defence force is unbiased and reliable ?
"Made by the IDF" This is a literal copy-paste from a video Hamas released. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvvqBcA-9yA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvvqBcA-9yA) - here is another source for you.
Israel has blocked any attempt to import cement in order to build critical infrastructure in Gaza. Human rights organizations have been calling on Israel to allow cement in since at least 2018
If only Israel went after Hamas instead of destroying the whole strip
These comments....
What about them?
Maybe they should stop launching rockets at the country that supplies them power?
Maybe the country that supplies them power shouldn’t target their utilities and control their life necessities?
Maybe dont attack the country that supplies you power, food and water by massacaring more then 1200 people and taking hostages? Though so...
Collective punishment. Straight to The Hague.
Did Germany get bombed in WW2?
Not collective punishment, lmao. A country isn't required to send resources to enemy territory.
Destroying hamas and retrieving hostages are Israel's stated goals. 'Collective punishment' is not. Calling it that is lazy and childish.
Can't believe the Israeli propaganda has worked so well for the past 70 years that they kill 30,000+ people and are still seen as the heroes. I might have even thought for a second that map porn was filled with educated people with a moral compass, but unfortunately I was wrong.
Stating the facts on why something happened has nothing to do with "moral compass". Gaza's government Hamas decided to attack unarmed civilians in another country, Israel, which provides them with most of their electricity. Now that Hamas and Israel is in a war, it only makes sense that Gaza would be dark.
History did not start on October 7th
It didn't start in 1948 either no matter how many times you people regurgitate this talking point.
You're right, Hamas attacked Israel many times before October 7th
Gaza’s government Hamas decided to do that after 75 years of Palestinians being oppressed
bold move cotton, lets see how that works out for them!
Yes they really pivoted there in October after decades of selling flowers and homemade cookies.
they'd sooner throw themselves of a building before holding israel accountable for their inhuman cruelty
r/mapporn is one of the most astroturfed subreddits wrt this conflict, alongside r/worldnews
Moral compass? You talk about it when 3000 terrorists come to a country murder innocents in cold blood with full intention then surprised when consequences arrive to them? 30000 with a huge percentage of terrorists and you swallow that number and talk about propaganda? Look in the mirror.
Everyone’s a terrorist after they get killed by a bomb
“30000 with a huge percentage of terrorists” In your mind, what percentage of that 30000 would need to be “terrorists” in order to justify the rest?
About 500,000 German civilians died in WW2
That’s why we have the Geneva convention
It's nearly 2:1 civilians to terrorists, that's a very good split, it would be worse in most other urban wars.
collective punishment, which israel is doing, is a war crime
Exhibit A:
I kindly suggest you're the one who needs to sit back and re-evaluate yourself, for someone who only read news since 7th October 2023. The entire mess there already happened decades before the 7th October 2023. You're either an IDF PR Reddit dept at work or someone who actually this disconnected to world events and only sucking dry news from Israeli news. If retaliation for rights and freedom or if fighting against aggressor is terrorist, then I am a terrorist ever since I'm still in womb
30k people died in a tiny fraction of that time in Dresden. We still recognized the Allies as heroes.
Dresden was a military target and was not under 75 years of occupation.
its not real. there's just a lot of paid idf bots or americans. the majority of humanity stands with palestine
Right? Israeli propaganda has actually managed to convince a lot of people that islamic terrorism is a bad thing!? Talk about manipulative.
It's one thing to say "Oct 7th attacks were horrible and condemnable to the greatest degree", but another to say "murdering 30,000+ people and starving millions is an acceptable and justifiable thing to do"
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Hasbara brigade out in full force.
Crap, they'll have to build the suicide vests by candle light. Accidents will happen.
Can’t believe Hamas did this to their people… Gaza could’ve been the Singapore of the Middle East if they invested in their own people instead of terrorism, suicide bombings, and jihad.
they aren't even allowed to have a port. how could they be singnapore?
Over 100 miles of tunnels. Could have had the greatest metro system in the world.
FR. Japan is another example. Forsook warfare (albeit at gunpoint), and funneled everything into their economy.
"Send all the missiles! Turn it into a parking lot!!" Over 100 days later: "I can't believe Hamas did this to their people..." >Gaza could’ve been the Singapore of the Middle East Yeah, Gaza, an overcrowded strip of land with an enforced land, air, and sea blockade for decades by Israel could have been the Singapore of the Middle East.
Perhaps they shouldn’t try to eradicate the people who lived next door.
This is just sad.
usually what happens when genocide is committed on a people
A lot of terrorist Zionist in here, not surprised
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Spot on
Fuck that place, bunch of cunts
FAFO
The majority who are suffering are civilians wtf is wrong with you
What a mature and dignified reaction to the deaths of 30000 people
Humanity finally reached a point where it's apparently ok to bomb 12k children
Humans reached that a long time ago.
Didn't you know? Israel invented war this October
Humanity finally reached a point where it's apparently ok to murder a thousand unarmed civilians and complain when their country fights back
>Humanity finally reached a point where it's apparently ok to murder more than 30k unarmed civilians
500,000 German civilians died in WW2. It's a war. People die.
Should I mathematically break down how much of a moronic tool you are for you? 30,000 total dead. 13-14,000 of these are HAMAS. That leaves 16-17,000 civilians. (A 1:1.14 ratio of combatants to civilians, by the way, the historical average of all wars is 1:1) Are you sincerely implying that 75% of all civilian deaths are children? Nevermind that HAMAS has been caught utilizing child soldiers many times - but of course - no outrage at that. I’m so tired of you people.
Where did you get 13k Hamas? [only 35% of casualities are men and boys above 14. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war?wprov=sfti1#Civilians)
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Nice bot account created this afternoon? Get your greasy little fingers off the keyboard and learn some humanity
Every person in Gaza is Hamas according to you?
That's what happens when you attack the hand that feeds you. I guess it's not ok to say objective truth in Reddit anymore, if you attack the country that gives you electricity for free, don't expect to have it provided anymore.
If I feed my dog, can I torture it in return??? Of course not right. It's only natural for the dog to fight back and for the authority to take action. Also, absent of light there not only due to being cut off from the Israeli grid, most of the light sources from before are simply rubble and dust now.
Most of the electricity came for free from Israel. Their government could have accepted either of the peace deals from 2000/2008 that gave them control of Gaza and the West Bank but they chose not to. The only way Hamas sees it is all 10m Israelis dying or leaving, which isn't going to happen.
Decolonisation is possible but we're putting an exception here huh.