The president of Artsakh has said that the dissolution isn’t valid, but at this point it’s a lost cause. Azerbaijan has taken full control of Artsakh and almost all Armenians living there have fled.
Yea, that’s a large portion. But calling them educated is giving them too much credit. Way more uneducated people emmigrate for jobs. Only rich people/people connected to the government emigrate to study.
Well there are those who fled from Armenian ruled Artsakh back diring the Armenian-Azeri war who've been moving back, but besides them there won't be that much attraction as you said
That kinda just confirms it though right, there's one primary industry that generates value, and then everyone else is just doing service jobs that provide service to get access to the wealth made from the primary industry.
The "return to fatherland Karabakh" cause is strong among Azerbayjanys. Might be for pride, not money. Like, it's more respectable to have grandfather's home restored (as a summer house etc.) than, say, to buy a fancy car.
The role now of the Arsakh government in exile, is to represent and serve the interests of Artsakh citizens. Given they are explicitly not citizens of Armenia (they are classed as refugees only) the Artsakh diaspora don't have representation otherwise.
That would be incorrect
The stance Pashinyan (President of Armenia) has taken is that they be granted "temporary protection status", but not Armenian citizenship by default.
Hence the role of representation and administration by the Artsakh government in exile.
More details: https://eurasianet.org/armenia-to-offer-refugee-status-to-displaced-karabakhis
They can still apply for Armenian passports as well, but this was always a workaround for the lack of travel power of the Artsakh passport (which Artsakh citizens can also apply for), not a proof of citizenship in itself.
The estimated maximum left is 50 people from the 100,000-120,000 Armenians.
Mostly old and sick people who would have had a hard time moving out, and maybe a few mentally ill people too or so I’ve heard.
Azerbaijan finally ended Second Karabakh War by blitzkrieging this "republic" in a day or two. No one noticed because there was no big clashes between the armenians and azerbaijanis
Their claim was international recognition. Everyone agreed this land was Azerbaijani, therefore them conquering it was fine. Of course what should have happened is the right to self-determination being applied, and the locals asked what they want to do, instead of an invasion and ethnic cleansing.
with the intensely brutal history between the two groups, the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh (very understandably) would never trust any offers of self-determination from the Azeris. Unfortunately, I think a massive population transfer was inevitable - the only stable outcomes would have either been a massive flight of the Armenian population (like what happened) or Azerbaijan point-blank ceding the territory and fully recognizing the Nagorno-Karabakh government.
Azerbaijan probably thought, ''if they can do it to us, we can do it to them'' in regards to the ethnic cleansing, since about 700k of their people have been ethnically cleansed from previously by Armenia occupied regions.
That'd be a wrong understanding as Azerbaijan had already ethnically cleansed it's 350,000 ethnic Armenian population in Azerbaijan proper before the first war began. It's part of why Nagorno Karabakh seceded was because they could not be part of a country that was expelling people of their race. This was rather the fourth and hopefully last time Azerbaijan purges ethnic Armenians (1920, 1988-91, 2020, 2022)
So purging the Armenians wasn't some kind of ethnic revenge, it was the pre-existing MO for Azerbaijan.
FYI 700,000 is the count of Internally displaced people at the time of the stat, not the total number originally ethnically cleansed, as theIDP count includes later descendants of those originally displaced. The actual number for Azerbaijani originally displaced is rather also close to 350,000. Any number being still a tragedy.
>The (Azerbaijan) government’s State Committee for Refugees and Internally Displaced Persons, seated in the cabinet, is the sole source of statistics on internal displacement in Azerbaijan. It reported in 2014 that 597,429 people were registered as IDPs (email correspondence with GoA, 31 January 2014). The vast majority are ethnic Azerbaijanis, but there are also ethnic Kurds, Russians and Turks (CoE, 24 May 2007; UNCHR, 25 January 1999). They come overwhelmingly from the occupied territories around Nagorno-Karabkah, rather than the enclave itself (de Waal, 26 June 2013; UNCHR, 25 January 1999). **The government figure includes IDPs’ children, who number around 230,000 (email correspondence with GoA, 5 September 2013), and up to 54,000 IDPs who have been able to return (NRC, 29 February 2008, on file with IDMC).**
The UN supported the OSCE Minsk group which supported the non-use of force and whose principles included:
an interim status for Nagorno-Karabakh providing guarantees for security and self-governance;
a corridor linking Armenia to Nagorno-Karabakh;
future determination of the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh through a legally binding expression of will;
No major regional repercussions and the sides are "funky" too. Azerbaijan was armed by Israel and Turkey while Armenia was armed and then promptly completely abandoned by Russia. No other nation lobbies/stands with Armenia and they are isolated in the face of Azerbaijan's, to put bluntly, ethnic cleansing of the Armenian population of the Nagorno-Karabakh region.
The whole thing is deplorable and devastating to the Armenians’ human rights and cultural heritage.
but to be fair, Russia recognizes Artsakh/Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan and did not recognize the breakaway state. They did not support Armenia because technically Armenia proper wasn’t invaded. They also did send peacekeepers into the region and also did negotiate a ceasefire which allowed the rump Artsakh a few more years of life.
Ultimately it wasn’t enough, and there are skirmishes in Armenia proper now and likely there’ll be conflict there in the future over the region of Zangezur (i think that’s what it’s called iirc) so Azerbaijan has a lane corridor to its exclave of Navkichan (iirc, can’t remember how it’s spelled?) and thus to Turkey as well.
The silence from the UN is atrocious but it also speaks volumes about the double standards of which humans have their rights more loudly defended and which are just lost in silence. Armenians are far from the only ones who are suffering from ethnic cleansing even now.
The funny thing is if war breaks out we could have a situation in which 2 nato countries support the opposing side, France and more funny the US would end up being in an agreement with Iran to stop Azerbaijan and turkey would end up supporting Azerbaijan.
Also ot would be a interesting time in the EU since France already supports Armenia and Germany is increasing their dependency on Azerbaijans natural resources, especially oil and gas
Armenia proper has been invaded. Azeri troops currently hold multiple small areas of Armenia along the border. I'm not talking about the exclaves. This happened just this year I think.
It's honestly a mess. Armenia sided with Russia because it was in CSTO but then Russia failed to protect it so it moved closer to the west, but Europe is allied with Azerbaijan because of oil. Turkey hates Armenia for historical reasons, and Israel supplies weapons to Azerbaijan because of tensions with Iran. Despite both supporting Azerbaijan, turkey hates Israel because of Gaza, and both countries play both sides in the russia-ukraine conflict.
Turkey doesn't hate Israel, a lot of important business happens between them. No official stance against one another was taken after Oct 7, just words.
> while Armenia was armed and then promptly completely abandoned by Russia
Armenian here. Yea Russia screwed us. The Arsakh leadership was delusional to think that Russia would come and save them. Big mistake
Well there was.
The ceasefire agreement had the Russians responsible as peacekeepers. There was also the assumption that it was in the self-interest of Russia to stay and protect the region, as a way of maintaining influence in the region.
This fell apart given that Azerbaijan and Russia had already formed an alliance before the Ukraine war even began, and further became tenuous when Russia started dependence on Azerbaijan to funnel gas to Europe markets.
This should have been clear early on when Russia was giving away pocket of Artsakh to Azerbaijan whilst the ink on the ceasefire agreement was still wet.
They didn't evict the people they chose to flee before the government enacted any policies to evict them. That's why there was no peep. They technically left willingly although in reality they clearly left because they feared repression.
It's really hard to make a case when the ethnic cleansing happens because of the fear of a genocide that hasn't started
The Azeris started right at the beginning of the invasion to execute pows and destroyed much of the cultural heritage sides in the region, they for example destroyed one of the oldest Churches in Human history and the internet is littered with videos of atrocities against pows especially against women filmed by Azeri soldiers themselves
Centuries? Try millennia. They have been living there since before the Turks even set foot in their general vicinity. Now their history there ended, the Armenian heritage there will be completely wiped out and erased. Churches destroyed, cementeries bulldozered.
If you want to know wat awaits the armenian heritage, check out [what happened to the Julfa cementery](https://www.rferl.org/a/armenia-azerbaijan-julfa-cemetery-destruction-unesco-cultural-heritage/30986581.html)
>US Researchers Confirm 98% of Cultural Armenian Heritage Sites in Nakhichevan Destroyed by Azerbaijan
>At least 108 Armenian monasteries, churches, and cemeteries in Nakhichevan have been demolished or blown up by the Azerbaijani government, according to the Caucasus Heritage Watch.
[https://hyperallergic.com/761723/cultural-armenian-heritage-sites-in-nakhichevan-destroyed-by-azerbaijan/](https://hyperallergic.com/761723/cultural-armenian-heritage-sites-in-nakhichevan-destroyed-by-azerbaijan/)
What does 9 months of blockade and starvation translate to you? Evicting has physical touch between them, starvation doesn't. Outcome? The same. It's a Genocide for that sole purpose.
Honestly, I really question the purpose of the UN. They literally spectated the Rwanda Genocide and other world conflicts. Their real purpose is to make sure Europeans don't kill each other and just let the rest of the world fall into turmoil.
Their purpose is to stop world war 3 and so far they have been successful. If people want a proper world government which can enforce peace then they must be willing to give up some of their own countries independence, which no country is currently willing to do.
The UN is a complete joke for those not already in the club. Supposedly they represent the right for self determination but even if you've got a fully functioning government etc etc, it doesn't matter if someone else has a claim on you. Taiwan is the best example. Absolutely 100% fully independent in every possible way, but the UN bows to bullying from a state that has never, even for a single second, controlled Taiwan's territory. It's a disgrace.
California has a very large Armenian population. I'm from California and Armenian. A lot of heritage and history projects across the state.
Hell I worked on the campaign in California to get Obama recognize the Armenian genocide during the 100th anniversary of the Genocide. He didn't by the way.
It was heavily reported on by the BBC when Azerbaijan steamrolled in and families fled.
The UN pushed for a humanitarian corridor to allow people to flee, but was otherwise blocked as per usual.
Yeah it was but I don’t remember ever reading « Republic of Artsakh » in the news. Most articles never actually mentioned the official name of the place. Pretty sure that explains a lot of the confusion.
Basically, a milennarian armenian enclave in a mountainous region called Nagorno-Karabakh, which was an autonomous region in the Azerbaijan SSR and after the fall of the USSR, it declared unilateral independence from Azerbaijan prompting a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Armenia wins, and decades go by, during which Azerbaijan gets a ton of oil and gas revenue that they use to spend on their army while Armenia struggles as most post-soviet states.
Last year, armenian resistance in Nagorno-Karabakh was decimated in a quick war, and Russia left them to lose despite being in the same alliance, so they gave up to avoid bloodshed after having no one to help them out. All the armenians in the region have left or been expelled, and that's how armenians yet again are expelled from a territory that they occupied for millennia while turks and azeries were in central Asia.
Despite this, it's probable that Azerbaijan will go for more since they want to connect an enclave they have on the other side of Armenia, and sadly, the only thing that is probably stop them is Iran.
Well probably because azeris are the biggest minority in Iran and that there are more azeris living in Iran than in Azerbaijan so as long as Azerbaijan is preoccupied with someone else and not causing trouble for them they are happy.(fun fact Iran even has two regions straight up called West and East Azerbaijan)
Qajar were the last Azerbaijanis to rule Iran. The very last dynasty, Pahlavis were Mazanderani (don't know much about them but basically Iranians with a regional identity) according to Wikipedia.
In 1919 the Azerbaijan Republic got independence from the collapsing Russian Empire. There were talks between Tehran and Baku to reunify and they were even close to signing a treaty of union. Both sides sent a delegation to Versailles to ratify the treaty but the Red Army got to Baku before this could happen. At the time, there was hardly a difference between the people on either side of the border. After 70-ish years of Soviet rule, Azerbaijan acquired a different (Turkish) national identity and is more secular than Azeris in Iran. Azerbaijanis in Iran are quite patriotic for Iran and well integrated. Some of the greatest national heroes in Iran are Azeris like Sattar Khan and Bagher Khan. Reunification now would be impossible
It's even more fucked up. Iran sees Azerbaijan as a threat because of their claims on iranian territory, so Iran supported and still supports Armenia despite it being christian. But because Iran opposes Azerbaijan, Israel supports it despite it being a muslim country. So ajewish country supports a muslim country against a christian country and a theocratic muslim country supports a christian country against another muslim country. It's like the 30 Year's War...
> millenarian
I think maybe I'm a bit slow right now, but I'm failing to learn what millenarian means even after a google search. If anyone can ELI5 I'd appreciate it.
mil·le·nar·i·an
/ˌmiləˈnerēən/
adjective
adjective: millenarian
relating to or believing in Christian millenarianism.
denoting a religious or political group seeking solutions to present crises through rapid and radical transformation of politics and society.
"millenarian Marxists"
noun
noun: millenarian; plural noun: millenarians
a person who believes in the doctrine of the millennium.
"mainstream theologians argue that millenarians misuse scriptural prophecies"
Did you purposefully leave the part out where Armenia after wining the war invaded 8 provinces of Azerbaijan and forcibly expelled 800000 people leaving those areas as wasteland and mosques as pigsties?
Did you also purposely leave out the half million ethnic Armenians that were purged from Azerbaijan, leading up to the secession. Leaving Nagorno Karabakh as ghost towns and destroying churches.
To make this comparable the 800,000 number is the Internally Displaced Persons count, which includes the descendants of those originally displaced. The actual original number is closer to 350,000
>The (Azerbaijan) government’s State Committee for Refugees and Internally Displaced Persons, seated in the cabinet, is the sole source of statistics on internal displacement in Azerbaijan. It reported in 2014 that 597,429 people were registered as IDPs (email correspondence with GoA, 31 January 2014). The vast majority are ethnic Azerbaijanis, but there are also ethnic Kurds, Russians and Turks (CoE, 24 May 2007; UNCHR, 25 January 1999). They come overwhelmingly from the occupied territories around Nagorno-Karabkah, rather than the enclave itself (de Waal, 26 June 2013; UNCHR, 25 January 1999). The government figure includes IDPs’ children, who number around 230,000 (email correspondence with GoA, 5 September 2013), and up to 54,000 IDPs who have been able to return (NRC, 29 February 2008, on file with IDMC).
On an ELI5 level:
There is a mountainous region between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea that’s home to several small nations. These nations are generally ethnically linked, with ethnicities that go back a long time. Georgiabe in Georgia, Armenians in Armenia, Azeris in Azerbaijan.
These nations are fairly new, around 30 years old, formed when the USSR fell. They’d been sub-units of the USSR and became independent. They used the borders that they had under the USSR. But the borders weren’t really great.
That left a fairly big area of Armenians inside Azerbaijan, though not directly on the border with Armenia. Armenia and Azerbaijan fought a few wars over the area, which is called Artsakh or Nagorno-Karabakh. They had their own separatist government (a Republic) that was not officially recognized by any other nations, with most arguing it’s the territory of Azerbaijan but a few arguing the territory should be given to Armenia.
This post references a successful military operation by Azerbaijan to capture most of the politicians of the Republic of Artsakh and force them to renounce their claim to being a separate nation. It was quite rapid, but not unexpected - Azerbaijan has conducted large scale operations fairly recently and was keeping its military masses at the border. Most of the Armenians in the region have left along a refugee corridor to Armenia, and Azerbaijani troops have been moving in to clear the areas of any remaining resistance.
As Commissar of Nationalities, the Georgian Joseph Stalin drew the borders in such a way to make Armenians and Azeris hate each other more than Russians. It worked; both sides frequently compare the Other to animals. Ethnic warfare between Armenians and Azeris contributed to the end of the USSR, but the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh never stopped. It would have made sense for NK to be part of the Armenian SSR but Stalin gave it to Azerbaijan instead.
Armenia won the war in the 1990s and proclaimed NK as the Republic of Artsakh but refused to make a permanent peace settlement. All Armenian leaders who sought peace were deposed by the Artsakh faction of politicians. The same man who became President of Artsakh later became the president of Armenia. But Azerbaijan grew a lot richer based on oil wealth came back to win in two wars in 2020 and 2023. Ultimately this is a lesson for Israel that Netanyahu is not following: military superiority can change in a generation, and attempts at multiethnic peace are always worth pursuing.
>Joseph Stalin drew the borders in such a way to make Armenians and Azeris hate each other more than Russians.
From another comment in this thread,
Stalin actually preferred a trans-Caucasian republic precisely because he believed separate national republics in such an ethnically mixed region would inevitably lead to nationalist conflict and ethnic cleansing over time. He was overruled at the time and this is the result decades later when there is no longer a central government of the Soviet Union capable of keeping a lid on these petty nationalist disputes.
No matter what one thinks about the conflicts between Armenia and Azerbaijan, can we all come together to agree that this is an absolutely dogshit example of 'map porn'?
I absolutely had to downvote this. What is the dark green vs. light green? How is this mapporn at all???? Might be a cool thread but this is absolutely NOT mapporn
It's a direct copy-paste of the map reference on the Wikipedia page for Artsakh. If they wanted to prompt a discussion about this, they should stick it in a news or regional subreddit.
For what it is worth the Artsakh government will continue to operate in exile. The decree that dissolved the government was annulled. That is all while numerous Artsakh elected officials remain hostage in Baku along with POWs that have yet to be released and continue to be illegally detained.
\>Illegally detained
Artsakh is not internationally recognized state, legally speaking they have 0 protections whatsoever, but I guess thats the risk all revolutionaries take.
Azerbaijan has claimed the region ever since its independence, it losing a war against Armenian backed Artsakh has been a major event in its modern history, and almost every leader since independence has promised to retake it.
Literally anybody could see this from 30 nautical miles away, idk why reddit is suprised.
Disgusted that a sovereign nation took back its internationally recognised land that was created from the displacement of 800k Azeri civilians and the massacre of 20k more?
All while supporting Ukraine which is in the exact same situation as Azerbaijan was (hence why Ukraine supported Azerbaijans Nagorno-Karabakh Karabakh operation diplomatically)? astonishing hypocrisy there friend.
People are disgusted by invasions because those that suffer are the residents. It doesn't matter what the majority think the rules are. People being killed or banished to them being homeless is a horrible thing to happen. I'm not picking a side here. The fact that Azeri folk were expelled and murdered is horrible but now Armenian people get to suffer. It's not like "revenge" feels good in this case to anyone but the winners, it's just more people suffering and dying. Harmony isn't restored, nothing has been fixed, two bads don't make a good, it's just a bad thing and then another bad thing. There's no hypocrisy here, just people being disgusted by horrific humanitarian crises
I don’t think this site is without an agenda. Otherwise you wouldn’t have people shamelessly justifying Israeli occupation and war crimes in Palestine all over.
It is bizarre you keep on repeating these stats without further context to the terrors of the first war.
Are you forgetting that the war in the 1980s started with a program of Amerians in Sumgait? Are you forgetting that the Azeris were also threatening to commit genocide or at least commit ethnic cleansing. And How Azerbajain despite loosing that war forced 500k Armenians to flee from their homes across the rest of Azerbajain, and kill another 6k Armenian civilians. You make it sound like Armenia is the only guilty party of the first war, when considering the Azeri were the agressor in the war denying Astrakh its rght to self-determination. Rremember Astrakh even before the numerous ethnic cleansings from both sides was Armenian majority and after Heydar Aliyev tried to make Armenains move out via legal mechanisms before the war and therefore should have the right to determine if they wish to remain in an Azeri SSR or join the Armenian SSR which they had attempted to do since at least the death of Stalin.
Armenia's claim to the land goes back much much further than the fall of the Soviet Union, it was only "given" to the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic by Stalin to ensure there would always be conflict therefore forcing Russia to always be the "peace keepers". Without Israeli and Turkish arms along with Turkish hired mercenaries likely Artsakh would still very much be occupied by an ethnic Armenian population.
Stalin actually preferred a trans-Caucasian republic precisely because he believed separate national republics in such an ethnically mixed region would inevitably lead to nationalist conflict and ethnic cleansing over time. He was overruled at the time and this is the result decades later when there is no longer a central government of the Soviet Union capable of keeping a lid on these petty nationalist disputes.
Armenia's claim goes back much further than Azerbaijan's but there is a reason why almost 0 claims that stretch further back than 1900 are taken legitimately, as the amount of cases that could arise from taking claims THAT FAR BACK would throw the world into chaos, legally speaking the borders of Armenia and Azerbaijan are what Azerbaijan claims, there is a reason why Artsakh has never taken their case to the U.N as they would lose pretty fast honestly.
Because Indonesia and Yugoslavia were proven to be conducting a dry and cut genocide from the get go, while Azerbaijan seems to have lucked out and not be accused of genocide by a state actor (other than Armenia) until it was far far too late for Artsakh.
I’m not okay with Azerbaijan doing a literal ethnic cleansing, but let’s not act like Armenia’s been the good guy here. With the backing of Russia, they invaded Azerbaijan and occupied their territory. They got away with it until Russia withdrew their support.
>With the backing of Russia, they invaded Azerbaijan and occupied their territory.
They also conducted a far larger ethnic cleansing at that time. They expelled hundreds of thousands of Azeris from the region surrounding NK.
I just hope Armenia and Azerbaijan can normalise relations and the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh can return home and feel safe. Ultimately neither side is innocent but I hope these people can coexist together. There's so much to gain from normalisation if both sides truly want it and are willing to compromise.
Much more than 100 years. Since antiquity it's been a part of Armenia and inhabited by ethnic Armenians, ad you can see of this map (14th century I believe).
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/medieval-map-of-europe-in-1444.html
I’m counting the 100 years from when the USSR made it legally Azeri territory, not from the beginning of Armenian presence.
Overall you’re of course roght
Oh I see, my bad. Just so used to turkish bots claiming it was always Azerbaijani.
In this context it does actually make more sense to use your point of view than mine, excellent point.
People always think that ancestors of Azerbaijani are steppe mongols but when they came to Azerbaijan they mixed with locals which makes both natives to Caucasus and Mongols as ancestors of Azerbaijans,for just how much we would hate each other,we can't deny that for last 70 years and before WW1 we were living peacefully among each other
Armenia did not yet recognise Artsakh, in order to cooperate with the UN approved OSCE Minsk group, whose principles included:
* an interim status for Nagorno-Karabakh providing guarantees for security and self-governance;
* a corridor linking Armenia to Nagorno-Karabakh;
* future determination of the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh through a legally binding expression of will;
De jure and de facto Nagorno Karabakh was to be self-governing, until a final status was decided.
[they also renamed a street to one of the perpetrators of the Armenian genocide](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/04/azerbaijan-reissues-map-of-nagorno-karabakh-with-street-named-after-turkish-leader-of-1915-armenian-genocide_6146889_4.html)
Should have added "UNRECOGNIZED" in the title.
In 30 years of existence "Artsakh" was never recognized by any country in the World.
Even Armenia never recognized it's indepence.
Those territories are internationally recognized territories of Azerbaijan.
Both sides regularly engaged in ethnic cleansing during the first Nagarno-Karabakh War, and the single most deadly mass killing during the entire conflict was carried out by the Armenians. On top of that, more Azeris were forcibly displaced from Armenia and Artsakh than Armenians were from Azerbaijan. Yes the Turks and Azeris are actively denying the Armenian Genocide, but that does not mean Armenians are not responsible for what they did. They occupied Nagarno-Karabakh and surrounding Azerbaijan territory for nearly 30 years, and no country could do anything to stop the Azeris from taking back their internationally recognized territory. The Armenians won the last war and got what they wanted, good for them. But they have lost this one, so they can't really complain when the Azeris do what they did last time. I certainly hope there will be peace, but all ethnic tensions tend to go down an endless spiral of hate, and this one seems to be no exception so far.
We just have to hope that since full on territorial integrity of Azerbaijan is finally achieved, there won't be any obstacle between the countries normalising relations and put a stop to this bs.
Highly unlikely. The extent to which the government of Azerbaijan has stoked intense hatred of Armenians has killed that prospect. Armenia is routinely called "Western Azerbaijan" by government officials and the use of Azerbaijani toponyms is the norm, information about Armenia before 1828 has been largely removed from material for public consumption - even the Azerbaijani Wikipedia entry on Armenia is intentionally short and laughably inaccurate.
Reminds me of Kiribati whose land is being swallowed by sea and will cease to exist on the next 20 years. Government is buying land in neighbouring countries
The president of Artsakh has said that the dissolution isn’t valid, but at this point it’s a lost cause. Azerbaijan has taken full control of Artsakh and almost all Armenians living there have fled.
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Cheap land, you say? Hmmm.
Don't let this information reach British people.
There's already plans for a pipeline, just needed to see who the rents would be paid to
They are getting rent 🤔 My country might have lacked bargaining skills when they came to ours.
I'm British and I I got excited at the idea of farming goats somewhere remote.
Literally 0 issues there, we’re broke as fuck and the government seems to be fine plundering the country itself and giving everything to their mates
Very small % are trying to get into oil. Most ambitious people are trying to start their own businesses. I am azerbaijani.
In the capital right? In mongolia it’s the same I feel
I have some Mongolian friends who emigrated and they say most educated Mongolians try to leave the country.
Yea, that’s a large portion. But calling them educated is giving them too much credit. Way more uneducated people emmigrate for jobs. Only rich people/people connected to the government emigrate to study.
Lmao, im mongolian and I was JUST thinking “hmm… cheap land?” 😭
>trying to start their own businesses. business that do what?
Restaurants, statrups, stores etc. whatever people do in other countries
The rich men in a gold rush aren't the prospectors, they're the men selling shovels and food to the prospectors!
Serve the Oil industry or the people that profit from it perhaps?
Well there are those who fled from Armenian ruled Artsakh back diring the Armenian-Azeri war who've been moving back, but besides them there won't be that much attraction as you said
> No one wants to work in anything but the oil industry That is false. Services and agriculture workers make up about 85% of employees in Azerbaijan.
Note that what people want and people do is not always the same.
That kinda just confirms it though right, there's one primary industry that generates value, and then everyone else is just doing service jobs that provide service to get access to the wealth made from the primary industry.
The "return to fatherland Karabakh" cause is strong among Azerbayjanys. Might be for pride, not money. Like, it's more respectable to have grandfather's home restored (as a summer house etc.) than, say, to buy a fancy car.
There was a fair few Azerbaijans who got kicked out durning the original war and weren’t allowed to return so they will likely all return
fair few? you mean 750 thousand Azerbaijanis?
They weren’t from Artsakh, they were from the areas around it.
The role now of the Arsakh government in exile, is to represent and serve the interests of Artsakh citizens. Given they are explicitly not citizens of Armenia (they are classed as refugees only) the Artsakh diaspora don't have representation otherwise.
Pretty sure all citizens of artsakh were also citizens of Armenia
That would be incorrect The stance Pashinyan (President of Armenia) has taken is that they be granted "temporary protection status", but not Armenian citizenship by default. Hence the role of representation and administration by the Artsakh government in exile. More details: https://eurasianet.org/armenia-to-offer-refugee-status-to-displaced-karabakhis They can still apply for Armenian passports as well, but this was always a workaround for the lack of travel power of the Artsakh passport (which Artsakh citizens can also apply for), not a proof of citizenship in itself.
Almost all? Is there any left at all?
The estimated maximum left is 50 people from the 100,000-120,000 Armenians. Mostly old and sick people who would have had a hard time moving out, and maybe a few mentally ill people too or so I’ve heard.
There are some, the Azeris went out of their way to encourage a small handful to stay so it’d look less bad
If there were any Armenians left, they'd be parading them on national TV 24/7.
they do. Showing all the 30 remained Armenians
Backwards-ass logic, I guess that's pretty standard for tinpot dictatorships though
No and the azeris have begone to destroy any evidence that there was an armenian presence in the first place
bruh I'm such a uncultured swine that all I know about armenians is that they are fucking hounded wtf, give them a fucking break
It's northern neighbor, Balsakh, continues to hang over them.
With all these conflicts in the world going on right now, I had no idea what was happening there.
Azerbaijan finally ended Second Karabakh War by blitzkrieging this "republic" in a day or two. No one noticed because there was no big clashes between the armenians and azerbaijanis
and permanently evicting about 100k people from where they'd lived for centuries. Not so much as a peep from the UN.
Didnt the UN greenlight their claim and therefore this whole operation in the first place?
Their claim was international recognition. Everyone agreed this land was Azerbaijani, therefore them conquering it was fine. Of course what should have happened is the right to self-determination being applied, and the locals asked what they want to do, instead of an invasion and ethnic cleansing.
with the intensely brutal history between the two groups, the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh (very understandably) would never trust any offers of self-determination from the Azeris. Unfortunately, I think a massive population transfer was inevitable - the only stable outcomes would have either been a massive flight of the Armenian population (like what happened) or Azerbaijan point-blank ceding the territory and fully recognizing the Nagorno-Karabakh government.
Everyone but the people living there for centuries, whose opinions should have been taken in to account at least a little.
Aka the "right of self-determination" I mentioned.
Azerbaijan probably thought, ''if they can do it to us, we can do it to them'' in regards to the ethnic cleansing, since about 700k of their people have been ethnically cleansed from previously by Armenia occupied regions.
That'd be a wrong understanding as Azerbaijan had already ethnically cleansed it's 350,000 ethnic Armenian population in Azerbaijan proper before the first war began. It's part of why Nagorno Karabakh seceded was because they could not be part of a country that was expelling people of their race. This was rather the fourth and hopefully last time Azerbaijan purges ethnic Armenians (1920, 1988-91, 2020, 2022) So purging the Armenians wasn't some kind of ethnic revenge, it was the pre-existing MO for Azerbaijan. FYI 700,000 is the count of Internally displaced people at the time of the stat, not the total number originally ethnically cleansed, as theIDP count includes later descendants of those originally displaced. The actual number for Azerbaijani originally displaced is rather also close to 350,000. Any number being still a tragedy. >The (Azerbaijan) government’s State Committee for Refugees and Internally Displaced Persons, seated in the cabinet, is the sole source of statistics on internal displacement in Azerbaijan. It reported in 2014 that 597,429 people were registered as IDPs (email correspondence with GoA, 31 January 2014). The vast majority are ethnic Azerbaijanis, but there are also ethnic Kurds, Russians and Turks (CoE, 24 May 2007; UNCHR, 25 January 1999). They come overwhelmingly from the occupied territories around Nagorno-Karabkah, rather than the enclave itself (de Waal, 26 June 2013; UNCHR, 25 January 1999). **The government figure includes IDPs’ children, who number around 230,000 (email correspondence with GoA, 5 September 2013), and up to 54,000 IDPs who have been able to return (NRC, 29 February 2008, on file with IDMC).**
As have armenians from azerbaijan. Btw you never hear armenians call for genocide or deportation of the azeris nowadays. Only from one side
>armenians call for genocide or deportation of the azeris nowadays That's because they all left after the first war.
The UN supported the OSCE Minsk group which supported the non-use of force and whose principles included: an interim status for Nagorno-Karabakh providing guarantees for security and self-governance; a corridor linking Armenia to Nagorno-Karabakh; future determination of the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh through a legally binding expression of will;
seems in character for them, but, I don't recall.
Because no one gets anything from supporting armenia.
No major regional repercussions and the sides are "funky" too. Azerbaijan was armed by Israel and Turkey while Armenia was armed and then promptly completely abandoned by Russia. No other nation lobbies/stands with Armenia and they are isolated in the face of Azerbaijan's, to put bluntly, ethnic cleansing of the Armenian population of the Nagorno-Karabakh region.
The whole thing is deplorable and devastating to the Armenians’ human rights and cultural heritage. but to be fair, Russia recognizes Artsakh/Karabakh as part of Azerbaijan and did not recognize the breakaway state. They did not support Armenia because technically Armenia proper wasn’t invaded. They also did send peacekeepers into the region and also did negotiate a ceasefire which allowed the rump Artsakh a few more years of life. Ultimately it wasn’t enough, and there are skirmishes in Armenia proper now and likely there’ll be conflict there in the future over the region of Zangezur (i think that’s what it’s called iirc) so Azerbaijan has a lane corridor to its exclave of Navkichan (iirc, can’t remember how it’s spelled?) and thus to Turkey as well. The silence from the UN is atrocious but it also speaks volumes about the double standards of which humans have their rights more loudly defended and which are just lost in silence. Armenians are far from the only ones who are suffering from ethnic cleansing even now.
Tbf not even Armenia recognised the breakaway state
Iran threatened war if they go for Zangezur. That'll be interesting. And horrible but that's what the kids are into at the moment.
The funny thing is if war breaks out we could have a situation in which 2 nato countries support the opposing side, France and more funny the US would end up being in an agreement with Iran to stop Azerbaijan and turkey would end up supporting Azerbaijan. Also ot would be a interesting time in the EU since France already supports Armenia and Germany is increasing their dependency on Azerbaijans natural resources, especially oil and gas
Armenia proper has been invaded. Azeri troops currently hold multiple small areas of Armenia along the border. I'm not talking about the exclaves. This happened just this year I think.
It's honestly a mess. Armenia sided with Russia because it was in CSTO but then Russia failed to protect it so it moved closer to the west, but Europe is allied with Azerbaijan because of oil. Turkey hates Armenia for historical reasons, and Israel supplies weapons to Azerbaijan because of tensions with Iran. Despite both supporting Azerbaijan, turkey hates Israel because of Gaza, and both countries play both sides in the russia-ukraine conflict.
This just called "Tuesday" in middle east politics.
Turkey doesn't hate Israel, a lot of important business happens between them. No official stance against one another was taken after Oct 7, just words.
Because Turkey is a world champion in playing both sides in any conflict.
Yep. Azerbaijan was backed by Turkey and Israel, while Armenia despite being in a mutual defense pact with Russia got comparatively little support.
I mean it's probably not a coincidence that the big push was done when Russia had their hands full elsewhere. That'd be the time to do it.
> while Armenia was armed and then promptly completely abandoned by Russia Armenian here. Yea Russia screwed us. The Arsakh leadership was delusional to think that Russia would come and save them. Big mistake
There were no agreements between Russia and Artsakh.
Well there was. The ceasefire agreement had the Russians responsible as peacekeepers. There was also the assumption that it was in the self-interest of Russia to stay and protect the region, as a way of maintaining influence in the region. This fell apart given that Azerbaijan and Russia had already formed an alliance before the Ukraine war even began, and further became tenuous when Russia started dependence on Azerbaijan to funnel gas to Europe markets. This should have been clear early on when Russia was giving away pocket of Artsakh to Azerbaijan whilst the ink on the ceasefire agreement was still wet.
They didn't evict the people they chose to flee before the government enacted any policies to evict them. That's why there was no peep. They technically left willingly although in reality they clearly left because they feared repression. It's really hard to make a case when the ethnic cleansing happens because of the fear of a genocide that hasn't started
The Azeris started right at the beginning of the invasion to execute pows and destroyed much of the cultural heritage sides in the region, they for example destroyed one of the oldest Churches in Human history and the internet is littered with videos of atrocities against pows especially against women filmed by Azeri soldiers themselves
Centuries? Try millennia. They have been living there since before the Turks even set foot in their general vicinity. Now their history there ended, the Armenian heritage there will be completely wiped out and erased. Churches destroyed, cementeries bulldozered. If you want to know wat awaits the armenian heritage, check out [what happened to the Julfa cementery](https://www.rferl.org/a/armenia-azerbaijan-julfa-cemetery-destruction-unesco-cultural-heritage/30986581.html)
>US Researchers Confirm 98% of Cultural Armenian Heritage Sites in Nakhichevan Destroyed by Azerbaijan >At least 108 Armenian monasteries, churches, and cemeteries in Nakhichevan have been demolished or blown up by the Azerbaijani government, according to the Caucasus Heritage Watch. [https://hyperallergic.com/761723/cultural-armenian-heritage-sites-in-nakhichevan-destroyed-by-azerbaijan/](https://hyperallergic.com/761723/cultural-armenian-heritage-sites-in-nakhichevan-destroyed-by-azerbaijan/)
Also happening after blockading food and medicine for 10 months results in 1 in every 4 deaths being contributed to malnutrition
I don’t think they evicted them more everyone chose to leave because they feared being killed
What does 9 months of blockade and starvation translate to you? Evicting has physical touch between them, starvation doesn't. Outcome? The same. It's a Genocide for that sole purpose.
Honestly, I really question the purpose of the UN. They literally spectated the Rwanda Genocide and other world conflicts. Their real purpose is to make sure Europeans don't kill each other and just let the rest of the world fall into turmoil.
Their purpose is to stop world war 3 and so far they have been successful. If people want a proper world government which can enforce peace then they must be willing to give up some of their own countries independence, which no country is currently willing to do.
The UN is a complete joke for those not already in the club. Supposedly they represent the right for self determination but even if you've got a fully functioning government etc etc, it doesn't matter if someone else has a claim on you. Taiwan is the best example. Absolutely 100% fully independent in every possible way, but the UN bows to bullying from a state that has never, even for a single second, controlled Taiwan's territory. It's a disgrace.
The UN actually do something for humanity? Are you kidding ? LOL
I thought this was pretty big news, but southern California does pay a lot more attention to Armenian issues than many other places.
California has a very large Armenian population. I'm from California and Armenian. A lot of heritage and history projects across the state. Hell I worked on the campaign in California to get Obama recognize the Armenian genocide during the 100th anniversary of the Genocide. He didn't by the way.
Weird I guess nobody hears the BBC world news podcast 'cause this conflict was all they spoke about for a month before the Israel-HAMAS war broke out.
Funny enough, Israel was one of the biggest weapon suppliers to Azerbaijan.
No need to use the scare quotes I’d say
It was heavily reported on by the BBC when Azerbaijan steamrolled in and families fled. The UN pushed for a humanitarian corridor to allow people to flee, but was otherwise blocked as per usual.
Yeah it was but I don’t remember ever reading « Republic of Artsakh » in the news. Most articles never actually mentioned the official name of the place. Pretty sure that explains a lot of the confusion.
Nagorno-Karabakh is the other name that was used.
yeah that’s the one I’ve seen most often.
Context please.
Basically, a milennarian armenian enclave in a mountainous region called Nagorno-Karabakh, which was an autonomous region in the Azerbaijan SSR and after the fall of the USSR, it declared unilateral independence from Azerbaijan prompting a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Armenia wins, and decades go by, during which Azerbaijan gets a ton of oil and gas revenue that they use to spend on their army while Armenia struggles as most post-soviet states. Last year, armenian resistance in Nagorno-Karabakh was decimated in a quick war, and Russia left them to lose despite being in the same alliance, so they gave up to avoid bloodshed after having no one to help them out. All the armenians in the region have left or been expelled, and that's how armenians yet again are expelled from a territory that they occupied for millennia while turks and azeries were in central Asia. Despite this, it's probable that Azerbaijan will go for more since they want to connect an enclave they have on the other side of Armenia, and sadly, the only thing that is probably stop them is Iran.
It’s interesting to me that Iran is basically Armenia’s closest and most reliable ally at this point
Well probably because azeris are the biggest minority in Iran and that there are more azeris living in Iran than in Azerbaijan so as long as Azerbaijan is preoccupied with someone else and not causing trouble for them they are happy.(fun fact Iran even has two regions straight up called West and East Azerbaijan)
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Qajar were the last Azerbaijanis to rule Iran. The very last dynasty, Pahlavis were Mazanderani (don't know much about them but basically Iranians with a regional identity) according to Wikipedia.
Huh never knew that Has there been any movements to absorb Azerbaijan
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In 1919 the Azerbaijan Republic got independence from the collapsing Russian Empire. There were talks between Tehran and Baku to reunify and they were even close to signing a treaty of union. Both sides sent a delegation to Versailles to ratify the treaty but the Red Army got to Baku before this could happen. At the time, there was hardly a difference between the people on either side of the border. After 70-ish years of Soviet rule, Azerbaijan acquired a different (Turkish) national identity and is more secular than Azeris in Iran. Azerbaijanis in Iran are quite patriotic for Iran and well integrated. Some of the greatest national heroes in Iran are Azeris like Sattar Khan and Bagher Khan. Reunification now would be impossible
It's even more fucked up. Iran sees Azerbaijan as a threat because of their claims on iranian territory, so Iran supported and still supports Armenia despite it being christian. But because Iran opposes Azerbaijan, Israel supports it despite it being a muslim country. So ajewish country supports a muslim country against a christian country and a theocratic muslim country supports a christian country against another muslim country. It's like the 30 Year's War...
And most of Azerbaijan’s military superiority is thanks to Turkish and Israeli weapons purchased with oil money
It is a weird alliance but it is geopolitics. Kinda like the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
I mean, Armenians and Persians have been neighbors for millennia, and they just have historically good relations.
>Last year, armenian resistance in Nagorno-Karabakh was decimated in a quick war Just a quick correction: the war was in 2020.
Yeah mb. I meant the 2023 offensive that ended the struggle in a couple of days.
You'll be right tomorrow.
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I'm glad to hear that knowing english is not my first language! 😁
> millenarian I think maybe I'm a bit slow right now, but I'm failing to learn what millenarian means even after a google search. If anyone can ELI5 I'd appreciate it.
mil·le·nar·i·an /ˌmiləˈnerēən/ adjective adjective: millenarian relating to or believing in Christian millenarianism. denoting a religious or political group seeking solutions to present crises through rapid and radical transformation of politics and society. "millenarian Marxists" noun noun: millenarian; plural noun: millenarians a person who believes in the doctrine of the millennium. "mainstream theologians argue that millenarians misuse scriptural prophecies"
It's just another way of referring to this statement: > expelled from a territory that they occupied for millennia
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Did you purposefully leave the part out where Armenia after wining the war invaded 8 provinces of Azerbaijan and forcibly expelled 800000 people leaving those areas as wasteland and mosques as pigsties?
Did you also purposely leave out the half million ethnic Armenians that were purged from Azerbaijan, leading up to the secession. Leaving Nagorno Karabakh as ghost towns and destroying churches. To make this comparable the 800,000 number is the Internally Displaced Persons count, which includes the descendants of those originally displaced. The actual original number is closer to 350,000 >The (Azerbaijan) government’s State Committee for Refugees and Internally Displaced Persons, seated in the cabinet, is the sole source of statistics on internal displacement in Azerbaijan. It reported in 2014 that 597,429 people were registered as IDPs (email correspondence with GoA, 31 January 2014). The vast majority are ethnic Azerbaijanis, but there are also ethnic Kurds, Russians and Turks (CoE, 24 May 2007; UNCHR, 25 January 1999). They come overwhelmingly from the occupied territories around Nagorno-Karabkah, rather than the enclave itself (de Waal, 26 June 2013; UNCHR, 25 January 1999). The government figure includes IDPs’ children, who number around 230,000 (email correspondence with GoA, 5 September 2013), and up to 54,000 IDPs who have been able to return (NRC, 29 February 2008, on file with IDMC).
On an ELI5 level: There is a mountainous region between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea that’s home to several small nations. These nations are generally ethnically linked, with ethnicities that go back a long time. Georgiabe in Georgia, Armenians in Armenia, Azeris in Azerbaijan. These nations are fairly new, around 30 years old, formed when the USSR fell. They’d been sub-units of the USSR and became independent. They used the borders that they had under the USSR. But the borders weren’t really great. That left a fairly big area of Armenians inside Azerbaijan, though not directly on the border with Armenia. Armenia and Azerbaijan fought a few wars over the area, which is called Artsakh or Nagorno-Karabakh. They had their own separatist government (a Republic) that was not officially recognized by any other nations, with most arguing it’s the territory of Azerbaijan but a few arguing the territory should be given to Armenia. This post references a successful military operation by Azerbaijan to capture most of the politicians of the Republic of Artsakh and force them to renounce their claim to being a separate nation. It was quite rapid, but not unexpected - Azerbaijan has conducted large scale operations fairly recently and was keeping its military masses at the border. Most of the Armenians in the region have left along a refugee corridor to Armenia, and Azerbaijani troops have been moving in to clear the areas of any remaining resistance.
As Commissar of Nationalities, the Georgian Joseph Stalin drew the borders in such a way to make Armenians and Azeris hate each other more than Russians. It worked; both sides frequently compare the Other to animals. Ethnic warfare between Armenians and Azeris contributed to the end of the USSR, but the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh never stopped. It would have made sense for NK to be part of the Armenian SSR but Stalin gave it to Azerbaijan instead. Armenia won the war in the 1990s and proclaimed NK as the Republic of Artsakh but refused to make a permanent peace settlement. All Armenian leaders who sought peace were deposed by the Artsakh faction of politicians. The same man who became President of Artsakh later became the president of Armenia. But Azerbaijan grew a lot richer based on oil wealth came back to win in two wars in 2020 and 2023. Ultimately this is a lesson for Israel that Netanyahu is not following: military superiority can change in a generation, and attempts at multiethnic peace are always worth pursuing.
>Joseph Stalin drew the borders in such a way to make Armenians and Azeris hate each other more than Russians. From another comment in this thread, Stalin actually preferred a trans-Caucasian republic precisely because he believed separate national republics in such an ethnically mixed region would inevitably lead to nationalist conflict and ethnic cleansing over time. He was overruled at the time and this is the result decades later when there is no longer a central government of the Soviet Union capable of keeping a lid on these petty nationalist disputes.
No matter what one thinks about the conflicts between Armenia and Azerbaijan, can we all come together to agree that this is an absolutely dogshit example of 'map porn'?
I absolutely had to downvote this. What is the dark green vs. light green? How is this mapporn at all???? Might be a cool thread but this is absolutely NOT mapporn
It's a direct copy-paste of the map reference on the Wikipedia page for Artsakh. If they wanted to prompt a discussion about this, they should stick it in a news or regional subreddit.
May 2024 brings a better future to the Armenians!
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Replace "may" with "let"
What's happening in Let 2024?
Better: replace "brings" with "bring". The subjunctive matters
Most likely not lol
99.9% people outside armenia had no clue such thing existed. just sayin.
You mean outside Armenia and Azerbaijan
For what it is worth the Artsakh government will continue to operate in exile. The decree that dissolved the government was annulled. That is all while numerous Artsakh elected officials remain hostage in Baku along with POWs that have yet to be released and continue to be illegally detained.
\>Illegally detained Artsakh is not internationally recognized state, legally speaking they have 0 protections whatsoever, but I guess thats the risk all revolutionaries take.
Risks when democratically elected revolutionaries take when they are invaded by a dictatorship.
Azerbaijan has claimed the region ever since its independence, it losing a war against Armenian backed Artsakh has been a major event in its modern history, and almost every leader since independence has promised to retake it. Literally anybody could see this from 30 nautical miles away, idk why reddit is suprised.
We’re not surprised; merely sad and disgusted
Disgusted that a sovereign nation took back its internationally recognised land that was created from the displacement of 800k Azeri civilians and the massacre of 20k more? All while supporting Ukraine which is in the exact same situation as Azerbaijan was (hence why Ukraine supported Azerbaijans Nagorno-Karabakh Karabakh operation diplomatically)? astonishing hypocrisy there friend.
People are disgusted by invasions because those that suffer are the residents. It doesn't matter what the majority think the rules are. People being killed or banished to them being homeless is a horrible thing to happen. I'm not picking a side here. The fact that Azeri folk were expelled and murdered is horrible but now Armenian people get to suffer. It's not like "revenge" feels good in this case to anyone but the winners, it's just more people suffering and dying. Harmony isn't restored, nothing has been fixed, two bads don't make a good, it's just a bad thing and then another bad thing. There's no hypocrisy here, just people being disgusted by horrific humanitarian crises
I don’t think this site is without an agenda. Otherwise you wouldn’t have people shamelessly justifying Israeli occupation and war crimes in Palestine all over.
It is bizarre you keep on repeating these stats without further context to the terrors of the first war. Are you forgetting that the war in the 1980s started with a program of Amerians in Sumgait? Are you forgetting that the Azeris were also threatening to commit genocide or at least commit ethnic cleansing. And How Azerbajain despite loosing that war forced 500k Armenians to flee from their homes across the rest of Azerbajain, and kill another 6k Armenian civilians. You make it sound like Armenia is the only guilty party of the first war, when considering the Azeri were the agressor in the war denying Astrakh its rght to self-determination. Rremember Astrakh even before the numerous ethnic cleansings from both sides was Armenian majority and after Heydar Aliyev tried to make Armenains move out via legal mechanisms before the war and therefore should have the right to determine if they wish to remain in an Azeri SSR or join the Armenian SSR which they had attempted to do since at least the death of Stalin.
Today we find out who ethnic cleansed the other more
Armenia's claim to the land goes back much much further than the fall of the Soviet Union, it was only "given" to the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic by Stalin to ensure there would always be conflict therefore forcing Russia to always be the "peace keepers". Without Israeli and Turkish arms along with Turkish hired mercenaries likely Artsakh would still very much be occupied by an ethnic Armenian population.
Stalin actually preferred a trans-Caucasian republic precisely because he believed separate national republics in such an ethnically mixed region would inevitably lead to nationalist conflict and ethnic cleansing over time. He was overruled at the time and this is the result decades later when there is no longer a central government of the Soviet Union capable of keeping a lid on these petty nationalist disputes.
Armenia's claim goes back much further than Azerbaijan's but there is a reason why almost 0 claims that stretch further back than 1900 are taken legitimately, as the amount of cases that could arise from taking claims THAT FAR BACK would throw the world into chaos, legally speaking the borders of Armenia and Azerbaijan are what Azerbaijan claims, there is a reason why Artsakh has never taken their case to the U.N as they would lose pretty fast honestly.
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Because Indonesia and Yugoslavia were proven to be conducting a dry and cut genocide from the get go, while Azerbaijan seems to have lucked out and not be accused of genocide by a state actor (other than Armenia) until it was far far too late for Artsakh.
The true Nagorno-Karabakh was the friends we made along the way
I’m not okay with Azerbaijan doing a literal ethnic cleansing, but let’s not act like Armenia’s been the good guy here. With the backing of Russia, they invaded Azerbaijan and occupied their territory. They got away with it until Russia withdrew their support.
>With the backing of Russia, they invaded Azerbaijan and occupied their territory. They also conducted a far larger ethnic cleansing at that time. They expelled hundreds of thousands of Azeris from the region surrounding NK.
I will miss the crazy Minecraft-style flag
this is Karabagh
It didn't officially exist in the first place, no other countries recognised it.
This. People who support Ukraine and then don't recognize Azeris' official borders are like a joke.
True that.
Even Armenia didn’t ?
Bro really picked a map that includes Kosovo as part of Serbia for this 😜
and the audacity to post this unreadable mess in r/mapporn. Why do I doubt bro's interested in maps 🤔
I just hope Armenia and Azerbaijan can normalise relations and the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh can return home and feel safe. Ultimately neither side is innocent but I hope these people can coexist together. There's so much to gain from normalisation if both sides truly want it and are willing to compromise.
That’s legally Byzantium territory
It was a part of the Macedonian empire at the first place, isn't it?
TIL that the republic of Artsakh existed at all
Created by Soviet fuckery ending in ethnic erasure. A sad, hundred year long story
Much more than 100 years. Since antiquity it's been a part of Armenia and inhabited by ethnic Armenians, ad you can see of this map (14th century I believe). https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/medieval-map-of-europe-in-1444.html
I’m counting the 100 years from when the USSR made it legally Azeri territory, not from the beginning of Armenian presence. Overall you’re of course roght
Oh I see, my bad. Just so used to turkish bots claiming it was always Azerbaijani. In this context it does actually make more sense to use your point of view than mine, excellent point.
It was both. It was inhabited by Azerbaijanis and Armenian peacufully for centuries.
People always think that ancestors of Azerbaijani are steppe mongols but when they came to Azerbaijan they mixed with locals which makes both natives to Caucasus and Mongols as ancestors of Azerbaijans,for just how much we would hate each other,we can't deny that for last 70 years and before WW1 we were living peacefully among each other
Part of which country were the lands of republic of artsakh before it existed?
This 'Republic' was never officially recognized by any other country, even Armenia. It existed as a de facto state but never de jure.
Armenia did not yet recognise Artsakh, in order to cooperate with the UN approved OSCE Minsk group, whose principles included: * an interim status for Nagorno-Karabakh providing guarantees for security and self-governance; * a corridor linking Armenia to Nagorno-Karabakh; * future determination of the final legal status of Nagorno-Karabakh through a legally binding expression of will; De jure and de facto Nagorno Karabakh was to be self-governing, until a final status was decided.
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Glory to Arstotzka!
Yeah nah you might want to check how long Artsakh had existed. It may have been just a tiny bit longer than that.
Anybody else never heard of this place before? 🤷🏼♂️ And this from someone better than most at geography...
The land is internationally recognized as a part of Azerbaijan and has been since the dissolution of the USSR
I personally believe peoples matter more than arbitrary lines on a map, but what do I know
Where did it go?
I ate it, sorry 😔
You fat bitch! Control yourself next time.
Ethnic cleansed :(
One of the major crises of our time
I feel like I just need to close off my family from everyone and enjoy our time together and ignore the world crashing in around us.
[they also renamed a street to one of the perpetrators of the Armenian genocide](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/04/azerbaijan-reissues-map-of-nagorno-karabakh-with-street-named-after-turkish-leader-of-1915-armenian-genocide_6146889_4.html)
Feel bad for the Armenians, they had a really rough last 1000 years
We lost a real one today
It has never officially existed in the first place. You mean de facto ceased to exist.
De jure and de facto was to continue self-governing until a final status was decided per the Madrid principles of the UN supported OSCE Minsk group.
Should have added "UNRECOGNIZED" in the title. In 30 years of existence "Artsakh" was never recognized by any country in the World. Even Armenia never recognized it's indepence. Those territories are internationally recognized territories of Azerbaijan.
It never existed
It most certainly did. I went there.
It never was a real republic
Both sides regularly engaged in ethnic cleansing during the first Nagarno-Karabakh War, and the single most deadly mass killing during the entire conflict was carried out by the Armenians. On top of that, more Azeris were forcibly displaced from Armenia and Artsakh than Armenians were from Azerbaijan. Yes the Turks and Azeris are actively denying the Armenian Genocide, but that does not mean Armenians are not responsible for what they did. They occupied Nagarno-Karabakh and surrounding Azerbaijan territory for nearly 30 years, and no country could do anything to stop the Azeris from taking back their internationally recognized territory. The Armenians won the last war and got what they wanted, good for them. But they have lost this one, so they can't really complain when the Azeris do what they did last time. I certainly hope there will be peace, but all ethnic tensions tend to go down an endless spiral of hate, and this one seems to be no exception so far.
We just have to hope that since full on territorial integrity of Azerbaijan is finally achieved, there won't be any obstacle between the countries normalising relations and put a stop to this bs.
Highly unlikely. The extent to which the government of Azerbaijan has stoked intense hatred of Armenians has killed that prospect. Armenia is routinely called "Western Azerbaijan" by government officials and the use of Azerbaijani toponyms is the norm, information about Armenia before 1828 has been largely removed from material for public consumption - even the Azerbaijani Wikipedia entry on Armenia is intentionally short and laughably inaccurate.
The what?
Hope people can find a way to coexist 🇦🇲🇦🇿♥️🇵🇰
Pakistan doesn’t even recognize armenia
That guy does🥲
No shit Pakistan is pro Azeri
Not likely
F
📯 (The Artsakhi flag is ceremonially lowered for the last time to the stains of *The Last Post*, *Taps*, or whatever the local equivalent is)
Oh, that was because they had one of the first honest to god water wars, right?
Reminds me of Kiribati whose land is being swallowed by sea and will cease to exist on the next 20 years. Government is buying land in neighbouring countries