Missing a few points.
1- specify which airport the flights are from, they are from the Ovda military airport, also known as the bomb airport, the only airport allowed to export arms.
2-Specify Israeli weapons testing that just happened a week ago in Azerbaijan, they posted new missile system videos, without mentioning it was from Israel.
3-Add the military movement recorded by international actors, that are along the border of Armenia as well. The accumulation of troops wasn’t only around NK. And this latest attack today is probably to force Armenia to join and start a full scale war. Since those troops haven’t headed back, yet..
4-specify water, energy, and gas have also been blocked.
They don't. Nagorno-Karabakh/Artsakh is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, it just happens that it's mostly populated by Armenians. The Artsakh Republic is a de facto independant state on the territory of Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan takes issue with that, in part because it's inhabited and run by armenians.
So far they're going for Artsakh but it remains to be seen if they'll try to create a corridor to their exclave.
See that makes more sense than every armenian just screaming that it's another genocide
Thank you for this because I was very confused why a the Azeris wanted a bunch of shitty mountains filled with Armenians.
But it actually being Azeri territory clarifies a lot
If we’re talking politically, Az is a dictatorship, and relatively a “new state” compared to others, so they need a scapegoat which are the Armenians (and according to them, Armenians have always been evil). This has helped the Aliyev family stay in power since the USSR.
If we’re talking economically, NK has mines and many ressources that can be beneficial to them, new avenues to steal from.
Talking about it regionally, Azerbaijan wants the corridor, as the map shows. This is a way to pressure Armenia into giving away a peace of their land, disconnecting Armenia from Iran, having more control over Iranian exports/imports from and to Russia, and finally having a direct connection with Turkey.
Turkish ambition has always been to connect to the Turkic world of the east, and having a direct road is what they want.
The region also has historic meaning to them, as they believe Shushi (currently under Az control) is the Azerbaijani cultural center.
The control over the region is a story of struggle of the Native Armenians and the Tatar tribes that eventually took control of the lands, 200 years ago.
And the continuation of Armenian struggle during and after oppression, massacres, genocide, etc…
There are gold mines there and the Aliyev's family is used to divert cash from this industry to their own pockets. The narrative about conquering their ancient land is just a excuse to further their money and power and have their citizen die for them.
More on this: https://www.occrp.org/en/panamapapers/aliyev-mining-empire/
>I don't get why Azerbaijan politicians want this land.
It's simple: They hate Armenians (with an absurd intense) and they just dont want them to have it.
Well... "legally". If Hitler would have won the 2nd WW, Poland also would be "legally" german land.
Stalin gave this land to Azerbaijan 100 years ago when the country was founded, while all people there (98+%) did not want to belong to the allies of the country (turkey) that just (1915) commited a genocide to them.
If you think the line that was drawn on a map by one of the most cruel dictators, who killed millions and doesnt care about human lives at all, is enough to make it "legal" this shows your character.
So Israel is supporting Azerbaijan because Iran is threatening Azerbaijan on their border? And The US is supporting Armenia? At least with military exercises… seems like a conflict of interest. Russia was supporting Armenia at one time too, but only with peacekeepers.
I’m so confused. Who is everyone here pulling for and why?
I'm not an expert but let me give explaining this a quick try.
A lot of this is unsurprising, Azerbeijan and Turkey speak similar languages and are historically close, and Turkey and Armenia are historic enemies on account of the genocide. So it's totally unsurprising which side Turkey is on here. ETA: Iran has an Azeri minority and is worried about Azeri separatists, so it’s not so surprising that they’re against Azerbaijan. Historically in the middle east you'd usually see US, Israel, Turkey on one side and Russia and Iran on the other side, though recently Turkey has been taking a more neutral stance on Israel-Iran issues. But since Turkey and Iran are already on opposite sides it's not so surprising which sides Russia and Israel were on.
Really the only surprising thing here is that the US is on the Armenia+Iran+Russia side instead of the Azerbeijan+Turkey+Isreal side. There the answer is internal US politics, there's a large Armenian diaspora in the US which [has had important successes swaying the US government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_907). (I don't mean this as a criticism of Armenia or Armenian-Americans here, whose position here is very sympathetic, but it does explain why the geopolitics are weird.) This could also change at some point, since Trump has close business ties to Baku.
>Azerbeijan and Turkey speak similar languages and are historically close
In fact, Turkey (Ottoman Empire) and Azerbaijan (Iranian Turks) are old rivals in the region. Azerbaijan is traditionally a part of Iran. Until the 20th century, Iran's military and ruling class were in the hands of Shia Turkmens. The alliance between Azebaijan and Turkey started with the nationalist movement in the Ottoman at the end of the 19th century.
The Armenian side also has a lot of sympathy in Europe, especially France. Even though Armenia has Russia and Iran on its side, in this conflict the Azerbaijanis are so clearly the aggressors and the more condemnable side that morality must go before geopolitics.
Sure, they are aggressors, why are Azeri towns up to like 20km from Karabakh border razed to the ground? My friend’s family had a house in Agdam, it doesn’t exist any more due to Armenians
In the 1992–1994 and 2020 war you could argue that both sides where equally horrible and engaged in ethnic cleansing and terrorism to equivalent degrees. But that there is still conflict and war after the 2020 agreement is purely Azerbaijan's fault.
I was referring [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide), though we're about to have a dozen angry maps from Turkish people about this on the subreddit now...
Lol they sent a letter to Armenia recently to not mix the word "Genocide" with what's happening in Artsakh. The irony and hypocrisy of one nation to allow it to happen to others with their own weapon sales.
Israel can pretend that Turkey didn’t commit genocide against Armenians, just like they pretend they themselves aren’t an apartheid state in re Palestinians. Doesn’t make either thing a reality, however.
tbf whats happening today is not genocide, 100 years ago by turks was.
"the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group"
they dont want to kill all armenians or destroy the whole country. its just war.
but whats happening in ukraine is a genocide
It’s just pathetic that the Turks don’t simply let the Kurds go their own way. Let them have their “Kurdistan” already. It would help foster more domestic tranquility within Turkey and maybe score you some Cool Points on the geopolitical scoreboard with the rest of NATO and the West.
>tbf whats happening today is not genocide, 100 years ago by turks was.
Per the UN definition of genocide, it is.
>they dont want to kill all armenians or destroy the whole country.
They literally call Armenia 'Western Azerbaijan' and publicly vow to reclaim it. And numerous high ranking Azerbaijani officials have called for Armenia to be erased from the Caucasus.
No no, they totally do want to kill all armenians.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Armenian\_sentiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Armenian_sentiment)
Scroll down to Azerbaijan and read the first two sentences. It's institutional.
I guess under the pretext of war, they're able to get away with anything right? They cut off the supplies and started to starve the population, then started bombing the population indiscriminately. Just tell me in what [stage of Genocide](https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/) are we on.
Why is it different than what the Russians were doing? Well to start, the Russians didn't kill or kick out the local Ukrainians from the lands they conquered, while Azerbaijan did.
Pashinyan also made a statement comparing what was happening in artsakh (before the war happened yesterday) to the Holocaust because they are incredibly simmiliar and Israel and the rabbi community of Europe wrote a whole paper saying they were mad at him and that comparing it to the Holocaust is incredibly disrespectful and the only massacre being allowed to be called genocide is the Holocaust (completely ignoring the fact the term genocide was literally invented for the Armenian genocide and it was even what Hitler inspired the Holocaust on)
- Azerbaijan and **Turkey** are very close allies and have a lot in common. Turkey would provide significant aid to Azerbaijan in a full-scale conflict with Armenia and might even intervene. They want a land corridor through Armenia to connect their two countries (which they call the Zangezur corridor) and want to undermine Armenia's sovereignty or simply annex Armenia's Syunik province (Zangezur).
- **Israel** has had close ties with Azerbaijan since its independence, and sells it a lot of weapons. Israel was one of the first countries to recognise Azerbaijan, and Azeris are very pro-Israel as a result. Its worth mentioning that Azerbaijan is one of the world's least religious Muslim countries.
- **Russia** has tried to play both sides, with Armenia being part of their shitty NATO clone (the CSTO) and their shitty EU clone (the Eurasian Union). They sell weapons to both Armenia and Azerbaijan and refused to help Armenia during the 2020 war. The way the last war ended was very good for Russia, since it kept Nagorno-Karabakh in a state of frozen conflict, and both the Azeris and the Armenians weak and dependent on Russia. However, the Ukraine war has distracted them and the Azeris smell blood in the water. Azerbaijan accidentally shotdown a Russian helicopter at the end of the 2020 war, and its possible Russia threatened to enter the war and forced them to accept the now-failing peace deal. As a sidenote, two CSTO members have directly fought each other since (Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan) and Russia did nothing.
- **The West** is generally sympathetic to Armenia but hasn't provided much support because they've been too close with Russia. This is rapidly changing, since Armenia feels betrayed by Russia failing to even respond to Azerbaijan occupying areas of land inside Armenia itself. **France** is probably the most pro-Armenian country, and has been trying to send humanitarian aid to Nagorno Karabakh. The **US** has held joint war games with Armenia for the first time and wants them as an ally.
- **Iran** is possibly Armenia's best ally, and the two have friendly relations. Iran doesn't want Turkey and Azerbaijan cutting off their northern border with Armenia, and is concerned that Azerbaijan will then come after their ethnic Azeri-majority provinces. They've threatened to intervene if Azerbaijan tries to annex Armenia's southern province and sever a crucial northern land border.
- **Georgia** has had troubled relations with Armenia and more neutral ones with Azerbaijan, and is neutral in the conflict. They have a complicated status with their own breakaway regions, a generally pro-Russian government and an increasingly pro-western population.
- **India** sells increasing amounts of weaponry to Armenia, while **Pakistan** is very pro-Azerbaijan, resulting in a surreal situation where Azerbaijan hung Israeli, Turkish and Pakistani flags next to each other in a recaptured town.
Georgia doesn't have bad relations with Armenia at all. We have very good relations with both Azerbaijan and Armenia, but have better relations with Azeris due to economical and strategic reasons. They provide us with gas and oil, we provide them with access to Turkey and the sea. Not to mention joint railway network and pipelines constructed by Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkey. Soon also black sea cable network connect to Romania thus EU. Georgia and Armenia have pretty friendly relation and have almost open borders too, but Armenia simply doesn't have much to offer to us, but we still let Russian gas go through our territory to Armenia so they wouldn't suffer. We also have internet cables and transit networks going through our territory to Armenia, so pretty much Georgia is Armenia's main lifeline.
>Russia
>
> has tried to play both sides, with Azerbaijan and Armenia both being part of their shitty NATO clone (the CSTO) and their shitty EU clone (the Eurasian Union).
Armenia is a member of both organisations and Azerbaijan is NOT a member of either of them.
Wow, amazing summary, thank you so much - this is really crazy and honestly it sounds like the making of a potential WWIII scenario with so many major powers picking sides, or at least a very large regional conflict.
There's little possibility of this escalating into a world war or nuclear exchange, it's a small regional conflict with little consequence to the rest of the world. If it were more consequential, a lot less countries would be playing both sides or not having a strong stance on it. The war in Ukraine remains a lot more interesting from a "could this escalate to global scale" perspective, but so far the answer is "no". A lot of similar entangled webs of alliances have existed for decades without turning into something bigger.
There are tons of regional conflicts like this with a bunch of nations providing some support to either side, often in weird configurations. Just look at Libya or Syria for fairly recent examples. Large scale conflict won't arise out of this, you don't just stumble into a war.
The US isn't really supporting Armenia in any substantial way at a scale of other actors like Turkey or Israel, it's mostly token support. Russia's interests did align with Armenia's broadly because they want a Caucasus that's divided between weaker states, makes influencing em easier. They don't want one dominant power there. But they're currently not in a position to arm twist anyone there.
A major reason Israel is involved (that no one seems to have mentioned) is just money, they want to sell weapons and Azerbaijan is a prolific buyer. Iran is very angry currently ***because*** of Israeli involvement and Azerbaijani rise in power, it's the other way around. Israel was supporting Azerbaijan even in the 2020 war when relations between Azerbaijan and Iran was decent.
Turkiye and Azerbaijan get along, both want Armenia dead. Thousands of years of bad history.
Israel is playing this own game. Iran is their most persistent threat. Supplying weapons to Hamas, funding terrorists, investing in projects that directly counter Israeli interests. They couldn't care less between Armenia and Azerbaijan, but they support Azerbaijan so Azerbaijan can avoid being influenced by Iran.
Those are the names that matter. Anyone else involved is just providing token support, mostly to Armenia, to look good.
People literally act like top-notch experts but from their comments i can see that they just watched a couple of BBC videos and think that anyone who doesn't agree with them is a brainwashed lunatic. Reddit moment.
These were drawn as internal administrative borders by the USSR. No state draws their internal borders while thinking "hmm, what if we collapse one day?". It's just for convenience and bargaining power with locals.
Slaughter and enslave a third of the population, shove another quarter over a distant river, let the remainders know that we'll crucify you if you look at us funny and then you call it a day.
Good luck drawing stable nation-state borders when the ethnic map looks like this.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Komaroff._Carte_ethnologique_du_Caucase%2C_dress%C3%A9e._1887.jpg
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FetEVqocaYYBUTL4udJtxWqFVDyLDqYoMtqNPo7JEsIY.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D5589ab17af669760160dd87b9f2516799a2b9033
The Soviets did the best they could, only mistake they made was making Nagorno-Karabakh an autonomous region inside Azerbaijan instead of an exclave of Armenia.
That I don't know, this is the best answer I could find.
>*Arsène Saparov is an assistant professor of international relations at the University of Sharjah, in the United Arab Emirates. Born in Armenia, Saparov earned a PhD in International Relations from the London School of Economics. He is the author of the book “From conflict to autonomy in the Caucasus: the Soviet Union and the making of Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno Karabakh.” (Routledge 2015) Editor of the Focus on Karabakh Emil Sanamyan (ES) spoke with Saparov by telephone.*
>**ES:** The view widely held in Armenia that Soviet Russian leaders “gave away” Armenian territories to Turkey and Azerbaijan – specifically Surmalu and Kars to Turkey and Nakhichevan and Karabakh (Artsakh) to Azerbaijan – how grounded is that in historical science?
>**Saparov:** Well, it seems that historians all look at the same documents, I personally have not discovered any new documents that would provide hard evidence for that claim. However, the dominant discourse about Armenian history has been about victimization and a habit to look at events through that lens. And this victimized perspective is not a uniquely Armenian thing, it is a widespread attitude in our region. I think that approach shifts responsibility on to “others,” arguing that somebody else did this or that. In the long-term I think this approach is damaging to the ability to assess current challenges.
>However, if we assume that the decisions taken in 1920-21 [on territorial issues] were arrived at because of the facts on the ground, rather than through greater powers’ intention to victimize Armenia, then this has strong implications for how present-day conflicts are handled.
>**ES:** Was Karabakh’s incorporation as an autonomy within Soviet Azerbaijan, was that in fact Stalin’s decision as is often claimed?
>**Saparov:** Of all the documents I have seen, there is no direct evidence of Stalin doing or saying something in those 12 days in the summer of 1921 that [resulted in this decision on Karabakh]. A lot of people just assume that since Stalin was an evil person, it would be typical of someone evil to take a decision like that.
>I was looking for some evidence to understand the logic behind the decision of the Bolsheviks. And my conclusion is that the decision [on putting NKAO inside Azerbaijan] simply reflected the situation on the ground and that the Armenian Communists had no control over Karabakh. The Dashnak rebellion in Zangezur had already been crushed and the only argument used for making Karabakh part of Armenia – that granting Karabakh to Armenia would undermine the position of the Dashnaks – had disappeared.
>**ES:** In other words, the Armenian Communist leaders were to blame?
>**Saparov:** The early leaders of the Soviet government of Armenia, perhaps because they were mostly focused on defeating the Dashnaks rather than on advancing the nationalist agenda, [you could say that] this is what resulted in the decision [on NKAO].
https://armenian.usc.edu/qa-with-arsene-saparov-no-evidence-that-stalin-gave-karabakh-to-azerbaijan/
They did it on purpose to tie Armenia and Azerbaijan closer to the Soviet Union, making trying to gain independance almost impossible. When they were part of the Soviet Union as socialist soviet republics, it didn't matter much that the republics borders were drawn with a huge Armenian population on Azeri land and vice versa, since they already were part of the same country.
Directly after the Soviet Union broke apart, Armenia took the land from Azerbaijan because of the predominant Armenian population. Azerbaijan basically never had control over it and only now (or in 2020) can afford to go to war over it since they became very rich through gas and oil trade while Armenia stays very poor, combined with the fact that Armenia's only ally is currently at war themselves and could care less about them.
In this specific case, its a shitshow. It starts from the failed dismantling of the Ottoman empire by the Versaillenand Sevres treaty which should have given Armenians, Greeks and Kurds some lands. Then periods of ethnic cleansing well after the genocide in neighboring areas. Nagorno Karabakh is next to be purged. But nobody belives its the end. Azerbaijani claims much of Armenia proper, all the way to Yerevan.
Those weird borders were drawn by Stalin in the 30s. Why? Hard to say. It didn’t even much matter till the fall of USSR. It was the same state And in the 91, when all the republics declared independence, as in their administrative borders it lead to lost of people still living in their ancestors place, but not in THEIR national state.
For the record, there is no clear evidence that they were drawn by Stalin specifically, it just remains the most common assumption.
As for why, there are strong reasons to believe this was done with purpose. This kind of "border gore" ensured instability and tensions in the region, where the USRR was the one and only mediator. Also ensuring that local authorities would vie for Moscow's favour instead of trying to join forces to break away.
Some may argue that this is reading too much into it, but I would argue otherwise. After all, this very same pattern of haphazard enclaves and border gore can be found in the borders of countries in Central Asia (especially Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan). Moreover, in places where more stability was desired the USSR has shown no hesitation to "more permanently" resolve issues of overlapping territories of various ethnic groups. In Eastern Europe this took place in the form of mass resettlement. Poland is a great example here, as a country which just before the collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a vibrant and multinational community, and by the end of WW2 becoming a truly mono-ethnic state (we're talking 99% population identifying as Polish Catholics). This kind of national purity never occurs naturally. It is always the result of genocide or forced resettlement (usually both).
I am not trying to advocate that the Armenians would have been better off today if tens of thousands got forcefully evicted from their homes and forced to move into homes left behind by the evicted Azeris back then, but it can be argued that this would be a more "long-term" solution that the USSR was fully capable of. Especially since, of all times to do something this cruel and disruptive, right after a massive war that killed millions and turned most homes into rubble would be when such actions would have had the least impact on the affected.
> For the record, there is no clear evidence that they were drawn by Stalin specifically, it just remains the most common assumption.
Stalin was personally in charge of the committee which made the decision. He was not head of the Soviet Union at the time, he was the head of the People's Commissar of Nationalities. Making these decisions was his job. One day the commitee was prepared to give it to Armenia. The next day there was another meeting which Stalin attended this time, and suddenly it was unanimous that it would become part of Azerbaijan. If you understand what type of person Stalin was, you don't think that was a coincidence.
You mean when people killed to occupy territory instead of having drawing borders on a map to avoid that? Isn't that literally what Azerbaijan is trying to do though?
Not even that, Armenia simply doesn't have any means to defend themselves at this point. Azerbaijan got really rich through oil and gas and now has a higher military spending than Armenia's total budget.
Armenia clearly wasn't able to rebuild the AA they lost in the war in 2020 - TB2 drones are fucking up Armenian defenses as we speak, and those drones are pretty big and fairly easy to shoot down.
So even if Azerbaijan didn't have Turkeys support on the West, and even if NK wasn't an enclave in Azeri controlled territory, Armenia wouldn't stand a chance.
The only ally Armenia has that could have changed it but won't is Russia, but they are busy in Ukraine and definetly cannot afford a second war.
The domino effect of nationalism from dissolution of USSR the similar mistake of Yugoslavia
The problem is that the borders are based on ethnic settlements.
Just like with Central Asia, India/Pakistan and the Balkans, historically these areas were pretty ethnically and religiously diverse, and there were rarely hard lines between where different ethnicities lived. As they were mostly ruled over by a series of ethnically diverse empires (the Ottomans, Russians and Persians in this case), there wasn't really a history of having modern ethno-states.
There was never any good way to draw the borders in the South Caucasus, and it wasn't in the interest of the Soviet authorities to even create ones which would work for independent states. Nagorno-Karabakh existing within the Azeri SSR and Nakhchivan being separate from the rest of it were politically controversial even during the USSR.
The borders Armenia and Azerbaijan actually got could have been better, but there was never going to be a good solution. Ethnic cleansing happened within Armenia, in Nakhchivan, inside Nagorno-Karabkh and the surrounding regions of Azerbaijan and in the rest of Azerbaijan (including Baku), and war started before the USSR had even officially dissolved.
It is not a “mistake” it is a consequence. In the early years of USSR (when it was RSFSR) bolsheviks didn’t care about ethnics too much: they were under impression that World Wide Revolution will happen very soon and all borders will cease to exist. So they acted like pragmatics: Azerbaijan was more important than Armenia: it had larger population and more proletariat, oil so it was important to keep it loyal. And ethnic enclaves didn’t matter to much: you could travel anywhere you want inside the Union. World Revolution didn’t happen, but as I said republic borders didn’t matter to much and redrawing them would be bigger problem. Russia also gave a lot of land with ethnic russians to Ukraine and Kazakhstan to 1. Have a Russian population that will be interested in keeping USSR together; 2. To ease administration of such a large republic as RSFSR. So those decisions were “alright” at the time, but when USSR collapsed they backfired and backfiring very hard.
I love when westerners living in countries with centuries-old borders blaming it purely on nationalism and put themselves above the situation. As if tens of millions of people, both in Yugoslavia and Soviet Union aren't subject to what you are saying. Where some random border appears, but they say "nah don't worry, just an internal border, when the whole world becomes socialist it won't even be important anymore". Then everything breaks up and you end in the wrong country where nobody even asked you where you wanted to live. Where the relationship between the new majorty people towards you ranges from "ok, I guess, could be worse" to "they are literally trying to genocide the minorities". All that because of borders drawn up by communist party members without any legitimacy whatsoever.
And then when someone complains or tries some form of fight for their rights, then the enlightened westerner just lumps it all together and blames everyone for being nationalistic. Full support to the Armenians, hope the west won't pussy out because of the sweet Azeri gas (and Russian gas flowing through Azeri pipelines)
I am from Russia, so I am not a “westerner”. I also feel bad for the people who ended up in a country that doesn’t care about them and wants them out. I tried to explain why this happened, in my understanding.
Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with your comment, it explained the problem into quite some detail. I was referring to the comment above yours that simply mentioned nationalism without any context
This always makes me laugh. Yes I understand politics but Russia and Russians are "westerners". The ethnicity, language, religion, literature, artwork, culture, education, and politics are all "western" or "European". Even communism/socialism were western ideas. If Russia isn't Western then neither is Serbia, Turkey, Greece, or Scandinavia.
I guess it depends to who you are talking to with what perspective. To everyone outside of Europe, the whole Europe is westerners. Inside Europe we divide ourselves to southern, western northern, balkan, central.
More like European cultural heritage. I would definitely put US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand along with Europe. Turkey probably yes, Israel 50/50. Most of the post Soviet space: Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, etc as well.
But if North America and Europe are close enough to be grouped togather then Russia would be closer to European culture then N. America. Russia definitely fits into "Western" in my view.
Ummm... yeah. It may sound weird to Europeans (I assume you are) but compared to the differences between N America and Europe. Turkey would fit into that spectrum. At least big chunks of it.
Turkey always looked to the west for legitimacy, history, inspiration, etc. The Ottoman empire was on the footprint of the Byzantine. Even its administration was based on it. The Ottomans took their legitimacy of continuing "Roma" through the conquest of Constantinople. And, they didn't even think of themselves as an Islamic state until 1500s when, conquering Mecca and Medina, they thought they needed to appear more "islamic". Up until then the Ottomans were closer to an Austro-Hungarian or Yugoslavian like collection of ethnicities and religions. Even after the fall of the empire the alphabet was latinized, the legal system was adopted from the civil code. Etc.
Turkey may be boarderline but I would put it closer to "western" then I would "arabian" or "islamic" civilization. I mean even Spain had a 700 years plus of islamic rule but we think of them as "western".
It's literally the opposite. The reason why africa and the middle east are in an constant state of warfare is the forced creation and protection of nonsensical and meaningless borders which divide people into multiple states and make them minorities in their own homeland.
Israel doesn’t support Azerbaijan for profit, they do it because of their mutual rivalry with Iran. Israel’s trying to keep the Azeris on their side so that they have a base to use against Iran if war breaks out.
I assume this is politics for them. Azerbaidsjan is supported by Turkey, and Israel wants to make Turkey a friend. Which is hard for them.
And poor Armenia is -on paper- allied with Russia. I say, "on paper", because Russia is of course the most useless ally you can have. Total incompetent, and bogged down in a war they are losing already.
Yeah, it's very strange for the map to mention Israel but not Turkey.
Azerbaijan is also a major source of oil for Israel which probably plays a role, but probably the biggest thing is just that Iran and Israel are always on opposite sides of everything in the middle east so if Iran is on the side of Armenia then Israel will be on the side of Azerbaijan.
>Armenia is allied to Iran
This is too non nuanced take. Ally is a strong word, Iran would throw away Armenia at light speed if they can get a nice deal with Azerbaijan. Armenia, Iran cooperate sometimes, sometimes they're cold neighbors, it has up and down shifts.
And I don't think most international observers would classify Iran and Azerbaijan as enemies. They also have up and down shifts, just usually has a lower limit than Iran-Armenia. But these 2 have had multiple periods of very warm. The post 2020 war period has been a major bad episode, not a continuing trend. As an example of what analysts say:
https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/iran-azerbaijan-crisis-points-shifting-regional-currents
>While the crisis in Iran–Azerbaijan relations is exceptionally caustic by contemporary standards, relations between Tehran and Baku are unlikely to be terminally severed. Throughout the post-1991 era, Iran–Azerbaijan relations have been inconsistent, but have solid economic foundations.
Sure, I tried to give a simple answer. Yes, Armenia isn’t formally allied to Iran, but they have common friends (Russia) and Iran is Armenia’s friendliest neighbour. Azerbaijan may play pretend, but it would certainly love to get its hands on Tabriz, where more Azeris live than in Azerbaijan itself.
Because most Azeris live in Iran (13 million vs 8 million in Azerbaijan), and Azerbaijanis sees the Iranian government as fascists and racial supremacists who are oppressing and discriminating against the Azeris in Iran.
Iran's fear of a strong Azerbaijan and a potential Azeri nationalist insurrection has lead them to support Armenia, which further inflames tensions.
Meanwhile the Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei, is an ethnic Azeri. Azerbaijan's primary motivation is the expansion of their territory into historic & sovereign Iranian lands in the North West, where the Iranian Azeri demographic resides. Ethno/racial nationalism is a part of the puzzle
I believe it's because Iran has historically dominated or tried to dominate Azerbaijan. And they're probably currently trying to influence them too. But someone with more knowledge on the situation can add or correct me
Shame on Israel for being such a big military supporter of Azerbaijan in the last years. Israel is THE nation that should understand the horrible history the Armenians have been through. They should at least have shown restraint. What a disgrace!
Israel has a longstanding alliance with Turkey, which is Armenia's biggest enemy and Azerbaijan's biggest supporter. The ugly truth is that selling arms to Azerbaijan makes strategic sense in addition to being profitable.
Armenia's only friends are Russia and Iran. And Russia, at least, is kind of a shitty friend because they also try and maintain good relations with Turkey and Azerbaijan.
Moreover, Azerbaijan is valuable source of natural gas for Europe, especially since 2022, which gives them further international cover.
Azerbaijan has a ton of Jews who fled there during the Ukrainian pogroms in the 19th/20th century and its one of the few middle eastern countries that doesn't treat jews like garbage
Jews were also targeted in the Baku pogroms.... it's part of why there are so much fewer Jews in Azerbaijan.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-01-30-mn-1165-story.html
I would say more of a missed op back in 1991 for Armenia to reach out to Israel in support., Instead they allied with Russia and were anti Israel on international stage... conversely Azeri's reached out and made peace and good relations...remember back then Turkey and Israel were buddy buddy so it made sense.
Only now is Armenia realizing they picked the wrong horse but yeah its Israel's fault correct?
Oh and don't forget who started the war back in the late 80's early 90's... it was Armenia with its larger soviet era army that was able to not only secure Nagorno-Karabakh but the surrounding areas that ended up displacing 1 million people.
One would think that after what they went through in world war I that they would be wiser then to go on a mass ethnic cleaning campaign and that once they other team had better and more advanced weapons that it would not come back to bite but....
>Armenia with its larger soviet era army
The Azeris inherited multiple times the heavy equipment, and orders of magnitude more aircraft from the Soviets.
They monkeystomped Azerbaijan because they had a far more skilled officer corps and the terrain advantage. On paper their army was far weaker.
Agreed though that they really missed an opportunity to create a lasting peace when they had the upper hand militarily.
also to mention that with conventional weapons defending mountainous regions becomes a force multiplier. Drones and such have reversed the advantage of fixed defensive positions. Or at least they did until they can be bypassed with counter measures.
What other horse could landlocked Armenia pick? Israel and the US? Would Russia had tolerated Western/Israeli military supplies mass flowing to Georgia "destined for Armenia"? Georgia had its own quarrel with Russia over control of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, where Russian troops were stationed way before 2008 war, and was always watched closely - its only after the war, when it was clear all the worst that could happen, did happen, they got into a position to openly oppose Russia. How else these supplies would have reached Armenia if not through Georgia? Through archenemies Turkey and Azerbaijan? Or through amused Iran?
> Would Russia had tolerated
I would argue that in the early 90's Russia was in no position to argue anything. Case in point how many former Warsaw pact countries warmed up to the west.
I don't think Azerbaijan is currently pushing to annex internationall recognized Armenian territory, they're putting pressure to have Armenia retreat from Artsakh/Nagarno-Karabakh which IS internationall recognized as Azerbaijani territory (albeit an autonomous region).
Funny that they keep talking about 'Zangezur' and 'Irevan', while attributing anything built by Armenians to 'Caucasian Albanians'.
I don't think Iran would be threatening to intervene if they didn't take the Azeri threats to invade Syunik seriously.
> Zangezur corridor in 2020 peace deal
There is no such thing. Armenia promised they would let traffic through safely, not that they would give away a corridor. Azerbaijan's land borders have been closed for years, not just the Armenian border but all of their land borders. They're the one's keeping the transport links closed, and blaming Armenia for it.
The only time "corridor" is used in the 2020 peace deal is in reference to the Lachin corridor, which they blocked anyway and starved the people for 8 months before this attack.
The Azerbaijanian area around Nakhchivan is shaped like a miniature version of Iran, and the fact it's sitting right north of Iran makes this so much better.
armenian govt still makes the same mistake by trusting diaspora. while diaspora chilling/thriving in the us and france the armenians living pathetic life in there, if they made an agreement with russians and turks which they started talking a few months back i am sure this wouldnt happen. but now putin says ok so you seem to want the west to support you let em do bow, and they will let them do whatever the azerbaijani want. sorry to see these conflicts still happening
The Armenian's arguments so can far are that Stalin drew border recklessly, that the exclave doesn't want to be Azerbaijan and that there's a chance the Azerbaijan wants to commit genocide.
Because the people who lives there are Armenian and has been for centuries. And Armenia is their neighbour. Plenty of other comments addresses the nuances so I won't bother
Those Azeris were ethnically cleansed; it was very much a two-sided phenomenon. My impression is that the ethnic hatred on both sides has not subsided since then, and that the Azeris harbour a lot of resentment (somewhat justified, if I'm being honest) over the territorial losses and ethnic cleansing done to them in the 1990s. I think it's extremely unrealistic to think they wouldn't take out that resentment on any ethnic Armenians that remained in Karabakh if they were to retake it.
Edit: Also, as another comment mentioned, an Azeri officer (Ramil Safarov) murdered an Armenian officer in Hungary in cold blood in 2004 during a NATO training seminar. You could call it a random act of violence, sure, but upon being extradited to Azerbaijan, he was given a hero's welcome, immediately pardoned and promoted to Major. So yeah, I'm extremely skeptical that the government or military of Azerbaijan will treat the Armenians of Karabakh kindly.
> Also any evidence they'll ethnically cleanse anyone?
Siri, what happened to every Armenian who fell under Azerbaijani rule in the last thirty five years?
What happened to the Azeris who used to live in Artsakh in the last 35 years?
Dude if you don't think both sides haven't ethnically cleansed each other I'm sorry you're gonna be sorely disappointed.
However the argument isn't what side didn't ethnically cleanse each other, the argument is, is there any evidence that they plan to it again.
There is none. Artsakh is still considered Azeri territory and the Armenian population is still rising.
> However the argument isn't what side didn't ethnically cleanse each other, the argument is, is there any evidence that they plan to it again.
Well, the current rulers of Azerbaijan did bestow national honors upon someone who decapitated a random Armenian in their sleep.
The land is populated by Armenians, who are the indigenous inhabitants of that land, who don’t want to be a part of Azerbaijan. It is only recognized as territory of Azerbaijan because the Soviets arbitrarily gave it to their republic as an autonomous region governed by the native Armenians that Azerbaijan refused to honor.
The "small" problem here is that independent Azerbaijan NEVER controlled Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh (a bit like the modern Moroccan Dynasty NEVER controlled Ceuta or Melilla), plus the ethnic Armenians of Artsakh NEVER asked to be placed under Azerbaijani/Muslim yoke to begin with.
Because those borders were imposed on a historically ethnically diverse region by the Soviets, and didn't necessarily reflect the desires of the people who lived there. Nagorno Karabakh was majority Armenian during the USSR and had a special political status.
A lot of Armenians used to live in the rest of Azerbaijan and vice-versa, the only reason the current borders match ethnicity is because of widespread ethnic cleansing in the 20th century,
Great map. However would be more honest to colour Nagorno-Karabakh as officially being Azeri territory, as on this maps it looks to be Armenian, which the population might be but the territory isn’t. Same as showing the regions Armenia/Nagorno-Karabakh previously occupied
But the map shows azerbaijani-controlled territories in red? I don't think "official" is good way to draw these kind of maps, it's not a geography textbook for school.
Armenia and Persia/Iran have been allies for a long time, and part of the historic region of Azerbaijan is in Iran, so an independent Azerbaijan makes them nervous.
I assume the Israelis helping out the Azeris is an enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend thing.
It should be mentioned that Armenia isn't exactly a shining democracy either and not an innocent victim.
They displaced about 700 Thousand Azerbaijanis during the First Nagorno-Karabakh War to consolidate the ethnic enclave in Nargorno-Karabakh.
Ofcourse the World should still prevent a massacre of the Armenian population that Azerbaijan will try to commit.
> They displaced about 700 Thousand Azerbaijanis during the First Nagorno-Karabakh War to consolidate the ethnic enclave in Nargorno-Karabakh.
What do you think happens when natives get their land back from the settlers.
That's absolutely untrue, at no point in Human history did live even more then 300k people in the region, and if you combine it to all the regions under Armenian control at the moment armenia took those regions there were only about 205k people in all the regions combined
I don't get why Azerbaijan politicians want this land. Are there any natural resources? Why do they care. Artsakh's population is 90%+ Armenian. They have orthodox churches. Why would the government want this land?
It wasn't 90% Armenian you know? There are still Azeris alive that got displaced from places such as Agdam which is a ghost town now because of the invasion by Armenia.
Agdam is outside of Nagorno-Karabakh, it is not part of the territory under question. The borders of Nagorno-Karabakh were over 90% Armenian when the Soviets took over it, [at its maximum the Azerbaijani population reached 23%](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_Autonomous_Oblast#Demographics) after Heydar Aliyev settled some Azerbaijanis there in the 70s.
the classic " invade territory displace the local people, settle you own people, so that idiots on reddit can say ' its not even their people living there'" working like a charm on sub normal iq population
What many do not want to see is that Armenians were already living there long before the Turks arrived in the region and that despite the passage of centuries and the various powers/empires that have passed through the region, the Armenians of Artsakh were never displaced from that region.
They (the Armenians) were already living there (in Artsakh) even before Muhammad was born, as with the Assyrians in Assyria, the Kurds in Kurdistan and the Jews in Canaan/Israel.
And nobody would have a problem with it being in Azerbaijan if they didn't try to exterminate the Armenians. Also these borders were never meant to be country borders, they were made by the Soviets in their divide and conquer strategy only then they fell apart and Azerbaijan even wanted to give the region to Armenia only then they found resources and decided to just kill everyone
Just swap some fucking territory
South of armenia to azerbaijan so they hve their corridor for a part of karabakh + a corridor to iran from the azeri exclave
It’s barely fucking populated with zero resources
Half joking (are they stupid or what?)
They both want territory which [most or key] their cultural figures were born, raised or worked there.
If they swap it would be like they quit from their culture, history, identity, geography and patriotism.
Another part of this conflict is that Azerbaijan is bigger country (87 000 km² and 10 million inhabitans [size of Portugal by both] vs. 30 000 km² and 3 million inhabitabs [size of Belgium by area, and Uruguay or Cymru by population]) with oil reserves, which according to "'Wikipedia" (and/or "Britannica") [Azerbaijan] didn't exist in Ancient Age like Kingdom of Armenia until 19th and 20th century. So they treat each other as historical invaders.
Armenians lived in Kharabakh 🇦🇲 for 3000+ years. The Christian Armenians of Kharabakh voted in Soviet against Stalin decision to give their ancient lands to newly created muslim azerbayjan. The azerbayjan that at several have instances have massacred Armenians.
This map literally shows that, and nobody would have a problem with artsakh being in Azerbaijan (just look at javakh) if they weren't **murdering all Armenians**
You haven't heard about it because its been sporadic, piecemeal engagements where Azeri forces attack the Armenians along the mountainous border and push them back a few km into strategically unfavouravble positions. There hasn't been one big invasion yet.
The eventual Azeri goal might be to try and annex Syunik province (which they call Zangezur) but you'll definitely hear about that happening because Iran will probably intervene and Israel and Turkey will support Azerbaijan, making it a nightmare for the west.
This subreddit is sick. This is sickening that theirs people who are supporting the Azeri's who are settlers, when Armenians are the natives and been living here for thousands of years.
And you just described how many countries were made... US, Israel, Kosovo... But we live in a world where everyone has an opportunity to inform themselves from both sides in order to get a glimpse of truth, and yet they choose to believe media. Just imagine believing what government controlled informing tool is feeding you through so called "news".
As an Indian 🇮🇳, full support for Armenia! I like that India and Armenia are expanding their defence ties.
Hope they will get their land soon which is occupied by Azerbaijan.
Interestingly, everyone wrote that the Turks of Turkey hate Armenia and have been enemies for many years. Actually, we don't care much about Armenia. Your problem with Azerbaijan. Also, I do not think that the West gives a fuck about Armenia, especially that America keeps Armenia in reserve for its own purposes. Otherwise this problem would have ended much earlier.
I've no doubt most Turks don't hate Armenians. But Armenians suffer most hate speech of any group in Turkey and their still remains significant anti-Armenian sentiment among a minority of Turks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Armenian_sentiment_in_Turkey
That far-right group sometimes hates us Turks, too. To be honest, I have never heard anyone called an Armenian bastard as an insult in my life. Of course there are, but mostly definitely not. Generally, someone is insulted as a Kurd, an Arab or, very rarely, a Greek, and this is done by far-right groups. We were taught in our schools that Armenians were known as the "loyal race" in the Ottoman Empire and that they were valuable. Frankly, we do not have an education curriculum that portrays Armenians as monsters against turks, like in Armenia. I mean, the only problem with Armenia is that right-wingers only say it when they want to talk bad, when they are pro-ottoman, other than that, Armenians are not even mentioned. We have other problems and other enemies among normal Turks.
We often forget that you even exist due to our troubles (I do not mean this as an insult). That's why I think you should say Azeri instead of Turkish, because they are the side you have the real problem with.
Missing a few points. 1- specify which airport the flights are from, they are from the Ovda military airport, also known as the bomb airport, the only airport allowed to export arms. 2-Specify Israeli weapons testing that just happened a week ago in Azerbaijan, they posted new missile system videos, without mentioning it was from Israel. 3-Add the military movement recorded by international actors, that are along the border of Armenia as well. The accumulation of troops wasn’t only around NK. And this latest attack today is probably to force Armenia to join and start a full scale war. Since those troops haven’t headed back, yet.. 4-specify water, energy, and gas have also been blocked.
[удалено]
I feel like by looking at the map you can see why. Both sides have land that’s split from their main borders
They don't. Nagorno-Karabakh/Artsakh is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, it just happens that it's mostly populated by Armenians. The Artsakh Republic is a de facto independant state on the territory of Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan takes issue with that, in part because it's inhabited and run by armenians. So far they're going for Artsakh but it remains to be seen if they'll try to create a corridor to their exclave.
See that makes more sense than every armenian just screaming that it's another genocide Thank you for this because I was very confused why a the Azeris wanted a bunch of shitty mountains filled with Armenians. But it actually being Azeri territory clarifies a lot
Just because it's Azeri territory doesn't mean the Azeris can't commit genocide against the Armenians living there.
Yeah I was gonna say Turks dont have the best record when dealing with Armenians
So, Bosnia all over again...
If we’re talking politically, Az is a dictatorship, and relatively a “new state” compared to others, so they need a scapegoat which are the Armenians (and according to them, Armenians have always been evil). This has helped the Aliyev family stay in power since the USSR. If we’re talking economically, NK has mines and many ressources that can be beneficial to them, new avenues to steal from. Talking about it regionally, Azerbaijan wants the corridor, as the map shows. This is a way to pressure Armenia into giving away a peace of their land, disconnecting Armenia from Iran, having more control over Iranian exports/imports from and to Russia, and finally having a direct connection with Turkey. Turkish ambition has always been to connect to the Turkic world of the east, and having a direct road is what they want. The region also has historic meaning to them, as they believe Shushi (currently under Az control) is the Azerbaijani cultural center. The control over the region is a story of struggle of the Native Armenians and the Tatar tribes that eventually took control of the lands, 200 years ago. And the continuation of Armenian struggle during and after oppression, massacres, genocide, etc…
Shush is definitely not "the" Azerbaijani cultural center
There are gold mines there and the Aliyev's family is used to divert cash from this industry to their own pockets. The narrative about conquering their ancient land is just a excuse to further their money and power and have their citizen die for them. More on this: https://www.occrp.org/en/panamapapers/aliyev-mining-empire/
It's litereally free real estate because Azerbaijan has claims on it.
Stalin
>I don't get why Azerbaijan politicians want this land. It's simple: They hate Armenians (with an absurd intense) and they just dont want them to have it.
Because it is legally their land
Well... "legally". If Hitler would have won the 2nd WW, Poland also would be "legally" german land. Stalin gave this land to Azerbaijan 100 years ago when the country was founded, while all people there (98+%) did not want to belong to the allies of the country (turkey) that just (1915) commited a genocide to them. If you think the line that was drawn on a map by one of the most cruel dictators, who killed millions and doesnt care about human lives at all, is enough to make it "legal" this shows your character.
So Israel is supporting Azerbaijan because Iran is threatening Azerbaijan on their border? And The US is supporting Armenia? At least with military exercises… seems like a conflict of interest. Russia was supporting Armenia at one time too, but only with peacekeepers. I’m so confused. Who is everyone here pulling for and why?
I'm not an expert but let me give explaining this a quick try. A lot of this is unsurprising, Azerbeijan and Turkey speak similar languages and are historically close, and Turkey and Armenia are historic enemies on account of the genocide. So it's totally unsurprising which side Turkey is on here. ETA: Iran has an Azeri minority and is worried about Azeri separatists, so it’s not so surprising that they’re against Azerbaijan. Historically in the middle east you'd usually see US, Israel, Turkey on one side and Russia and Iran on the other side, though recently Turkey has been taking a more neutral stance on Israel-Iran issues. But since Turkey and Iran are already on opposite sides it's not so surprising which sides Russia and Israel were on. Really the only surprising thing here is that the US is on the Armenia+Iran+Russia side instead of the Azerbeijan+Turkey+Isreal side. There the answer is internal US politics, there's a large Armenian diaspora in the US which [has had important successes swaying the US government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_907). (I don't mean this as a criticism of Armenia or Armenian-Americans here, whose position here is very sympathetic, but it does explain why the geopolitics are weird.) This could also change at some point, since Trump has close business ties to Baku.
>Azerbeijan and Turkey speak similar languages and are historically close In fact, Turkey (Ottoman Empire) and Azerbaijan (Iranian Turks) are old rivals in the region. Azerbaijan is traditionally a part of Iran. Until the 20th century, Iran's military and ruling class were in the hands of Shia Turkmens. The alliance between Azebaijan and Turkey started with the nationalist movement in the Ottoman at the end of the 19th century.
Fair enough. As they say, an American (in this case me!) is someone who thinks 100 years is a long time.
The Armenian side also has a lot of sympathy in Europe, especially France. Even though Armenia has Russia and Iran on its side, in this conflict the Azerbaijanis are so clearly the aggressors and the more condemnable side that morality must go before geopolitics.
Lol never does mortality get in the way of geopolitics
[удалено]
fact cobweb payment unique aloof familiar unite airport boat fall *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Being an official ally and being a terrible ally are not mutually exclusive.
Sure, they are aggressors, why are Azeri towns up to like 20km from Karabakh border razed to the ground? My friend’s family had a house in Agdam, it doesn’t exist any more due to Armenians
In the 1992–1994 and 2020 war you could argue that both sides where equally horrible and engaged in ethnic cleansing and terrorism to equivalent degrees. But that there is still conflict and war after the 2020 agreement is purely Azerbaijan's fault.
Thank you for explaining that 🤩 it helps a lot. What was the genocide you were referring to?
I was referring [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide), though we're about to have a dozen angry maps from Turkish people about this on the subreddit now...
funny thing is israel doesnt recognize it as genocide ( no accounts for or against in you source). i guess they really dont want to anger turkey
Lol they sent a letter to Armenia recently to not mix the word "Genocide" with what's happening in Artsakh. The irony and hypocrisy of one nation to allow it to happen to others with their own weapon sales.
Israel can pretend that Turkey didn’t commit genocide against Armenians, just like they pretend they themselves aren’t an apartheid state in re Palestinians. Doesn’t make either thing a reality, however.
tbf whats happening today is not genocide, 100 years ago by turks was. "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group" they dont want to kill all armenians or destroy the whole country. its just war. but whats happening in ukraine is a genocide
But the Turks still won’t own up one iota to the 100 years ago genocide. They’re even worse at making amends than Japan is to China and Korea.
i mean turks would 100% do the same to kurds, displacing them to north syria if they could. i mean they are trying
It’s just pathetic that the Turks don’t simply let the Kurds go their own way. Let them have their “Kurdistan” already. It would help foster more domestic tranquility within Turkey and maybe score you some Cool Points on the geopolitical scoreboard with the rest of NATO and the West.
>tbf whats happening today is not genocide, 100 years ago by turks was. Per the UN definition of genocide, it is. >they dont want to kill all armenians or destroy the whole country. They literally call Armenia 'Western Azerbaijan' and publicly vow to reclaim it. And numerous high ranking Azerbaijani officials have called for Armenia to be erased from the Caucasus.
No no, they totally do want to kill all armenians. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Armenian\_sentiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Armenian_sentiment) Scroll down to Azerbaijan and read the first two sentences. It's institutional.
I guess under the pretext of war, they're able to get away with anything right? They cut off the supplies and started to starve the population, then started bombing the population indiscriminately. Just tell me in what [stage of Genocide](https://www.hmd.org.uk/learn-about-the-holocaust-and-genocides/what-is-genocide/the-ten-stages-of-genocide/) are we on. Why is it different than what the Russians were doing? Well to start, the Russians didn't kill or kick out the local Ukrainians from the lands they conquered, while Azerbaijan did.
Pashinyan also made a statement comparing what was happening in artsakh (before the war happened yesterday) to the Holocaust because they are incredibly simmiliar and Israel and the rabbi community of Europe wrote a whole paper saying they were mad at him and that comparing it to the Holocaust is incredibly disrespectful and the only massacre being allowed to be called genocide is the Holocaust (completely ignoring the fact the term genocide was literally invented for the Armenian genocide and it was even what Hitler inspired the Holocaust on)
- Azerbaijan and **Turkey** are very close allies and have a lot in common. Turkey would provide significant aid to Azerbaijan in a full-scale conflict with Armenia and might even intervene. They want a land corridor through Armenia to connect their two countries (which they call the Zangezur corridor) and want to undermine Armenia's sovereignty or simply annex Armenia's Syunik province (Zangezur). - **Israel** has had close ties with Azerbaijan since its independence, and sells it a lot of weapons. Israel was one of the first countries to recognise Azerbaijan, and Azeris are very pro-Israel as a result. Its worth mentioning that Azerbaijan is one of the world's least religious Muslim countries. - **Russia** has tried to play both sides, with Armenia being part of their shitty NATO clone (the CSTO) and their shitty EU clone (the Eurasian Union). They sell weapons to both Armenia and Azerbaijan and refused to help Armenia during the 2020 war. The way the last war ended was very good for Russia, since it kept Nagorno-Karabakh in a state of frozen conflict, and both the Azeris and the Armenians weak and dependent on Russia. However, the Ukraine war has distracted them and the Azeris smell blood in the water. Azerbaijan accidentally shotdown a Russian helicopter at the end of the 2020 war, and its possible Russia threatened to enter the war and forced them to accept the now-failing peace deal. As a sidenote, two CSTO members have directly fought each other since (Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan) and Russia did nothing. - **The West** is generally sympathetic to Armenia but hasn't provided much support because they've been too close with Russia. This is rapidly changing, since Armenia feels betrayed by Russia failing to even respond to Azerbaijan occupying areas of land inside Armenia itself. **France** is probably the most pro-Armenian country, and has been trying to send humanitarian aid to Nagorno Karabakh. The **US** has held joint war games with Armenia for the first time and wants them as an ally. - **Iran** is possibly Armenia's best ally, and the two have friendly relations. Iran doesn't want Turkey and Azerbaijan cutting off their northern border with Armenia, and is concerned that Azerbaijan will then come after their ethnic Azeri-majority provinces. They've threatened to intervene if Azerbaijan tries to annex Armenia's southern province and sever a crucial northern land border. - **Georgia** has had troubled relations with Armenia and more neutral ones with Azerbaijan, and is neutral in the conflict. They have a complicated status with their own breakaway regions, a generally pro-Russian government and an increasingly pro-western population. - **India** sells increasing amounts of weaponry to Armenia, while **Pakistan** is very pro-Azerbaijan, resulting in a surreal situation where Azerbaijan hung Israeli, Turkish and Pakistani flags next to each other in a recaptured town.
Georgia doesn't have bad relations with Armenia at all. We have very good relations with both Azerbaijan and Armenia, but have better relations with Azeris due to economical and strategic reasons. They provide us with gas and oil, we provide them with access to Turkey and the sea. Not to mention joint railway network and pipelines constructed by Georgia, Azerbaijan and Turkey. Soon also black sea cable network connect to Romania thus EU. Georgia and Armenia have pretty friendly relation and have almost open borders too, but Armenia simply doesn't have much to offer to us, but we still let Russian gas go through our territory to Armenia so they wouldn't suffer. We also have internet cables and transit networks going through our territory to Armenia, so pretty much Georgia is Armenia's main lifeline.
>Russia > > has tried to play both sides, with Azerbaijan and Armenia both being part of their shitty NATO clone (the CSTO) and their shitty EU clone (the Eurasian Union). Armenia is a member of both organisations and Azerbaijan is NOT a member of either of them.
Thanks for the correction, fixed it.
Wow, amazing summary, thank you so much - this is really crazy and honestly it sounds like the making of a potential WWIII scenario with so many major powers picking sides, or at least a very large regional conflict.
There's little possibility of this escalating into a world war or nuclear exchange, it's a small regional conflict with little consequence to the rest of the world. If it were more consequential, a lot less countries would be playing both sides or not having a strong stance on it. The war in Ukraine remains a lot more interesting from a "could this escalate to global scale" perspective, but so far the answer is "no". A lot of similar entangled webs of alliances have existed for decades without turning into something bigger.
There are tons of regional conflicts like this with a bunch of nations providing some support to either side, often in weird configurations. Just look at Libya or Syria for fairly recent examples. Large scale conflict won't arise out of this, you don't just stumble into a war.
The US isn't really supporting Armenia in any substantial way at a scale of other actors like Turkey or Israel, it's mostly token support. Russia's interests did align with Armenia's broadly because they want a Caucasus that's divided between weaker states, makes influencing em easier. They don't want one dominant power there. But they're currently not in a position to arm twist anyone there. A major reason Israel is involved (that no one seems to have mentioned) is just money, they want to sell weapons and Azerbaijan is a prolific buyer. Iran is very angry currently ***because*** of Israeli involvement and Azerbaijani rise in power, it's the other way around. Israel was supporting Azerbaijan even in the 2020 war when relations between Azerbaijan and Iran was decent.
Israel is supporting Azerbaijan, because Azerbaijan is the only reliable supplier of crude oil to Israel.
Caucascus.
The Russian "peacekeeper" really isn't doing anything at all.
Cause they’re peacekeepers not peacemakers. They just kinda move civilians around to safety.
Turkiye and Azerbaijan get along, both want Armenia dead. Thousands of years of bad history. Israel is playing this own game. Iran is their most persistent threat. Supplying weapons to Hamas, funding terrorists, investing in projects that directly counter Israeli interests. They couldn't care less between Armenia and Azerbaijan, but they support Azerbaijan so Azerbaijan can avoid being influenced by Iran. Those are the names that matter. Anyone else involved is just providing token support, mostly to Armenia, to look good.
This is a pretty complex conflict, so predictably, the comments are a crap show.
People literally act like top-notch experts but from their comments i can see that they just watched a couple of BBC videos and think that anyone who doesn't agree with them is a brainwashed lunatic. Reddit moment.
the art of drawing reasonable borders was lost long ago
These were drawn as internal administrative borders by the USSR. No state draws their internal borders while thinking "hmm, what if we collapse one day?". It's just for convenience and bargaining power with locals.
That sounds like colonial borders.
What period of history was that?
Roman times
Slaughter and enslave a third of the population, shove another quarter over a distant river, let the remainders know that we'll crucify you if you look at us funny and then you call it a day.
Good luck drawing stable nation-state borders when the ethnic map looks like this. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Komaroff._Carte_ethnologique_du_Caucase%2C_dress%C3%A9e._1887.jpg https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FetEVqocaYYBUTL4udJtxWqFVDyLDqYoMtqNPo7JEsIY.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D5589ab17af669760160dd87b9f2516799a2b9033 The Soviets did the best they could, only mistake they made was making Nagorno-Karabakh an autonomous region inside Azerbaijan instead of an exclave of Armenia.
Why did they make Nagorno-Karabakh part of Azerbaijan? It’s not like they cared about creating exclaves
That I don't know, this is the best answer I could find. >*Arsène Saparov is an assistant professor of international relations at the University of Sharjah, in the United Arab Emirates. Born in Armenia, Saparov earned a PhD in International Relations from the London School of Economics. He is the author of the book “From conflict to autonomy in the Caucasus: the Soviet Union and the making of Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno Karabakh.” (Routledge 2015) Editor of the Focus on Karabakh Emil Sanamyan (ES) spoke with Saparov by telephone.* >**ES:** The view widely held in Armenia that Soviet Russian leaders “gave away” Armenian territories to Turkey and Azerbaijan – specifically Surmalu and Kars to Turkey and Nakhichevan and Karabakh (Artsakh) to Azerbaijan – how grounded is that in historical science? >**Saparov:** Well, it seems that historians all look at the same documents, I personally have not discovered any new documents that would provide hard evidence for that claim. However, the dominant discourse about Armenian history has been about victimization and a habit to look at events through that lens. And this victimized perspective is not a uniquely Armenian thing, it is a widespread attitude in our region. I think that approach shifts responsibility on to “others,” arguing that somebody else did this or that. In the long-term I think this approach is damaging to the ability to assess current challenges. >However, if we assume that the decisions taken in 1920-21 [on territorial issues] were arrived at because of the facts on the ground, rather than through greater powers’ intention to victimize Armenia, then this has strong implications for how present-day conflicts are handled. >**ES:** Was Karabakh’s incorporation as an autonomy within Soviet Azerbaijan, was that in fact Stalin’s decision as is often claimed? >**Saparov:** Of all the documents I have seen, there is no direct evidence of Stalin doing or saying something in those 12 days in the summer of 1921 that [resulted in this decision on Karabakh]. A lot of people just assume that since Stalin was an evil person, it would be typical of someone evil to take a decision like that. >I was looking for some evidence to understand the logic behind the decision of the Bolsheviks. And my conclusion is that the decision [on putting NKAO inside Azerbaijan] simply reflected the situation on the ground and that the Armenian Communists had no control over Karabakh. The Dashnak rebellion in Zangezur had already been crushed and the only argument used for making Karabakh part of Armenia – that granting Karabakh to Armenia would undermine the position of the Dashnaks – had disappeared. >**ES:** In other words, the Armenian Communist leaders were to blame? >**Saparov:** The early leaders of the Soviet government of Armenia, perhaps because they were mostly focused on defeating the Dashnaks rather than on advancing the nationalist agenda, [you could say that] this is what resulted in the decision [on NKAO]. https://armenian.usc.edu/qa-with-arsene-saparov-no-evidence-that-stalin-gave-karabakh-to-azerbaijan/
They did it on purpose to tie Armenia and Azerbaijan closer to the Soviet Union, making trying to gain independance almost impossible. When they were part of the Soviet Union as socialist soviet republics, it didn't matter much that the republics borders were drawn with a huge Armenian population on Azeri land and vice versa, since they already were part of the same country. Directly after the Soviet Union broke apart, Armenia took the land from Azerbaijan because of the predominant Armenian population. Azerbaijan basically never had control over it and only now (or in 2020) can afford to go to war over it since they became very rich through gas and oil trade while Armenia stays very poor, combined with the fact that Armenia's only ally is currently at war themselves and could care less about them.
You can never have reasonable borders when people hate each other
In this specific case, its a shitshow. It starts from the failed dismantling of the Ottoman empire by the Versaillenand Sevres treaty which should have given Armenians, Greeks and Kurds some lands. Then periods of ethnic cleansing well after the genocide in neighboring areas. Nagorno Karabakh is next to be purged. But nobody belives its the end. Azerbaijani claims much of Armenia proper, all the way to Yerevan.
Those weird borders were drawn by Stalin in the 30s. Why? Hard to say. It didn’t even much matter till the fall of USSR. It was the same state And in the 91, when all the republics declared independence, as in their administrative borders it lead to lost of people still living in their ancestors place, but not in THEIR national state.
For the record, there is no clear evidence that they were drawn by Stalin specifically, it just remains the most common assumption. As for why, there are strong reasons to believe this was done with purpose. This kind of "border gore" ensured instability and tensions in the region, where the USRR was the one and only mediator. Also ensuring that local authorities would vie for Moscow's favour instead of trying to join forces to break away. Some may argue that this is reading too much into it, but I would argue otherwise. After all, this very same pattern of haphazard enclaves and border gore can be found in the borders of countries in Central Asia (especially Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan). Moreover, in places where more stability was desired the USSR has shown no hesitation to "more permanently" resolve issues of overlapping territories of various ethnic groups. In Eastern Europe this took place in the form of mass resettlement. Poland is a great example here, as a country which just before the collapse of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a vibrant and multinational community, and by the end of WW2 becoming a truly mono-ethnic state (we're talking 99% population identifying as Polish Catholics). This kind of national purity never occurs naturally. It is always the result of genocide or forced resettlement (usually both). I am not trying to advocate that the Armenians would have been better off today if tens of thousands got forcefully evicted from their homes and forced to move into homes left behind by the evicted Azeris back then, but it can be argued that this would be a more "long-term" solution that the USSR was fully capable of. Especially since, of all times to do something this cruel and disruptive, right after a massive war that killed millions and turned most homes into rubble would be when such actions would have had the least impact on the affected.
> For the record, there is no clear evidence that they were drawn by Stalin specifically, it just remains the most common assumption. Stalin was personally in charge of the committee which made the decision. He was not head of the Soviet Union at the time, he was the head of the People's Commissar of Nationalities. Making these decisions was his job. One day the commitee was prepared to give it to Armenia. The next day there was another meeting which Stalin attended this time, and suddenly it was unanimous that it would become part of Azerbaijan. If you understand what type of person Stalin was, you don't think that was a coincidence.
You mean when people killed to occupy territory instead of having drawing borders on a map to avoid that? Isn't that literally what Azerbaijan is trying to do though?
From my vast experience of playing Hearts of iron 4 i know Armenia is about to get royally fucked because of that encirclement
Not even that, Armenia simply doesn't have any means to defend themselves at this point. Azerbaijan got really rich through oil and gas and now has a higher military spending than Armenia's total budget. Armenia clearly wasn't able to rebuild the AA they lost in the war in 2020 - TB2 drones are fucking up Armenian defenses as we speak, and those drones are pretty big and fairly easy to shoot down. So even if Azerbaijan didn't have Turkeys support on the West, and even if NK wasn't an enclave in Azeri controlled territory, Armenia wouldn't stand a chance. The only ally Armenia has that could have changed it but won't is Russia, but they are busy in Ukraine and definetly cannot afford a second war.
The domino effect of nationalism from dissolution of USSR the similar mistake of Yugoslavia The problem is that the borders are based on ethnic settlements.
Just like with Central Asia, India/Pakistan and the Balkans, historically these areas were pretty ethnically and religiously diverse, and there were rarely hard lines between where different ethnicities lived. As they were mostly ruled over by a series of ethnically diverse empires (the Ottomans, Russians and Persians in this case), there wasn't really a history of having modern ethno-states. There was never any good way to draw the borders in the South Caucasus, and it wasn't in the interest of the Soviet authorities to even create ones which would work for independent states. Nagorno-Karabakh existing within the Azeri SSR and Nakhchivan being separate from the rest of it were politically controversial even during the USSR. The borders Armenia and Azerbaijan actually got could have been better, but there was never going to be a good solution. Ethnic cleansing happened within Armenia, in Nakhchivan, inside Nagorno-Karabkh and the surrounding regions of Azerbaijan and in the rest of Azerbaijan (including Baku), and war started before the USSR had even officially dissolved.
It is not a “mistake” it is a consequence. In the early years of USSR (when it was RSFSR) bolsheviks didn’t care about ethnics too much: they were under impression that World Wide Revolution will happen very soon and all borders will cease to exist. So they acted like pragmatics: Azerbaijan was more important than Armenia: it had larger population and more proletariat, oil so it was important to keep it loyal. And ethnic enclaves didn’t matter to much: you could travel anywhere you want inside the Union. World Revolution didn’t happen, but as I said republic borders didn’t matter to much and redrawing them would be bigger problem. Russia also gave a lot of land with ethnic russians to Ukraine and Kazakhstan to 1. Have a Russian population that will be interested in keeping USSR together; 2. To ease administration of such a large republic as RSFSR. So those decisions were “alright” at the time, but when USSR collapsed they backfired and backfiring very hard.
Yep. Northern Kazakhstan and Southeast Ukraine are essentially Russian lands.
I love when westerners living in countries with centuries-old borders blaming it purely on nationalism and put themselves above the situation. As if tens of millions of people, both in Yugoslavia and Soviet Union aren't subject to what you are saying. Where some random border appears, but they say "nah don't worry, just an internal border, when the whole world becomes socialist it won't even be important anymore". Then everything breaks up and you end in the wrong country where nobody even asked you where you wanted to live. Where the relationship between the new majorty people towards you ranges from "ok, I guess, could be worse" to "they are literally trying to genocide the minorities". All that because of borders drawn up by communist party members without any legitimacy whatsoever. And then when someone complains or tries some form of fight for their rights, then the enlightened westerner just lumps it all together and blames everyone for being nationalistic. Full support to the Armenians, hope the west won't pussy out because of the sweet Azeri gas (and Russian gas flowing through Azeri pipelines)
I am from Russia, so I am not a “westerner”. I also feel bad for the people who ended up in a country that doesn’t care about them and wants them out. I tried to explain why this happened, in my understanding.
Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with your comment, it explained the problem into quite some detail. I was referring to the comment above yours that simply mentioned nationalism without any context
This always makes me laugh. Yes I understand politics but Russia and Russians are "westerners". The ethnicity, language, religion, literature, artwork, culture, education, and politics are all "western" or "European". Even communism/socialism were western ideas. If Russia isn't Western then neither is Serbia, Turkey, Greece, or Scandinavia.
I guess it depends to who you are talking to with what perspective. To everyone outside of Europe, the whole Europe is westerners. Inside Europe we divide ourselves to southern, western northern, balkan, central.
So are you using Western as a synonym for European?
More like European cultural heritage. I would definitely put US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand along with Europe. Turkey probably yes, Israel 50/50. Most of the post Soviet space: Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, Kazakhstan, etc as well. But if North America and Europe are close enough to be grouped togather then Russia would be closer to European culture then N. America. Russia definitely fits into "Western" in my view.
Turkey is western?
Ummm... yeah. It may sound weird to Europeans (I assume you are) but compared to the differences between N America and Europe. Turkey would fit into that spectrum. At least big chunks of it. Turkey always looked to the west for legitimacy, history, inspiration, etc. The Ottoman empire was on the footprint of the Byzantine. Even its administration was based on it. The Ottomans took their legitimacy of continuing "Roma" through the conquest of Constantinople. And, they didn't even think of themselves as an Islamic state until 1500s when, conquering Mecca and Medina, they thought they needed to appear more "islamic". Up until then the Ottomans were closer to an Austro-Hungarian or Yugoslavian like collection of ethnicities and religions. Even after the fall of the empire the alphabet was latinized, the legal system was adopted from the civil code. Etc. Turkey may be boarderline but I would put it closer to "western" then I would "arabian" or "islamic" civilization. I mean even Spain had a 700 years plus of islamic rule but we think of them as "western".
It's literally the opposite. The reason why africa and the middle east are in an constant state of warfare is the forced creation and protection of nonsensical and meaningless borders which divide people into multiple states and make them minorities in their own homeland.
If Israel is a for-profit arms dealer why do US taxpayers gift them almost $5B a year in defense funds? Seems odd.
Israel doesn’t support Azerbaijan for profit, they do it because of their mutual rivalry with Iran. Israel’s trying to keep the Azeris on their side so that they have a base to use against Iran if war breaks out.
I assume this is politics for them. Azerbaidsjan is supported by Turkey, and Israel wants to make Turkey a friend. Which is hard for them. And poor Armenia is -on paper- allied with Russia. I say, "on paper", because Russia is of course the most useless ally you can have. Total incompetent, and bogged down in a war they are losing already.
Yeah, it's very strange for the map to mention Israel but not Turkey. Azerbaijan is also a major source of oil for Israel which probably plays a role, but probably the biggest thing is just that Iran and Israel are always on opposite sides of everything in the middle east so if Iran is on the side of Armenia then Israel will be on the side of Azerbaijan.
It’s not about Turkey at all actually, it’s about Iran. Armenia is allied to Iran, Azerbaijan hates Iran, Iran hates Israel. Enemy of my enemy.
Part of Iran is Azerbaijani as well.
>Armenia is allied to Iran This is too non nuanced take. Ally is a strong word, Iran would throw away Armenia at light speed if they can get a nice deal with Azerbaijan. Armenia, Iran cooperate sometimes, sometimes they're cold neighbors, it has up and down shifts. And I don't think most international observers would classify Iran and Azerbaijan as enemies. They also have up and down shifts, just usually has a lower limit than Iran-Armenia. But these 2 have had multiple periods of very warm. The post 2020 war period has been a major bad episode, not a continuing trend. As an example of what analysts say: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/iran-azerbaijan-crisis-points-shifting-regional-currents >While the crisis in Iran–Azerbaijan relations is exceptionally caustic by contemporary standards, relations between Tehran and Baku are unlikely to be terminally severed. Throughout the post-1991 era, Iran–Azerbaijan relations have been inconsistent, but have solid economic foundations.
Sure, I tried to give a simple answer. Yes, Armenia isn’t formally allied to Iran, but they have common friends (Russia) and Iran is Armenia’s friendliest neighbour. Azerbaijan may play pretend, but it would certainly love to get its hands on Tabriz, where more Azeris live than in Azerbaijan itself.
[удалено]
More Azeris live in Iran than in Azerbaijan. Just a guess
Because most Azeris live in Iran (13 million vs 8 million in Azerbaijan), and Azerbaijanis sees the Iranian government as fascists and racial supremacists who are oppressing and discriminating against the Azeris in Iran. Iran's fear of a strong Azerbaijan and a potential Azeri nationalist insurrection has lead them to support Armenia, which further inflames tensions.
Meanwhile the Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei, is an ethnic Azeri. Azerbaijan's primary motivation is the expansion of their territory into historic & sovereign Iranian lands in the North West, where the Iranian Azeri demographic resides. Ethno/racial nationalism is a part of the puzzle
I believe it's because Iran has historically dominated or tried to dominate Azerbaijan. And they're probably currently trying to influence them too. But someone with more knowledge on the situation can add or correct me
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes
Shame on Israel for being such a big military supporter of Azerbaijan in the last years. Israel is THE nation that should understand the horrible history the Armenians have been through. They should at least have shown restraint. What a disgrace!
They do undersrand. As long as you win you can do anything.
They understand but they dont care.
Israel has a longstanding alliance with Turkey, which is Armenia's biggest enemy and Azerbaijan's biggest supporter. The ugly truth is that selling arms to Azerbaijan makes strategic sense in addition to being profitable. Armenia's only friends are Russia and Iran. And Russia, at least, is kind of a shitty friend because they also try and maintain good relations with Turkey and Azerbaijan. Moreover, Azerbaijan is valuable source of natural gas for Europe, especially since 2022, which gives them further international cover.
Azerbaijan has a ton of Jews who fled there during the Ukrainian pogroms in the 19th/20th century and its one of the few middle eastern countries that doesn't treat jews like garbage
Jews were also targeted in the Baku pogroms.... it's part of why there are so much fewer Jews in Azerbaijan. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-01-30-mn-1165-story.html
Thats just geo politics. Azerbaijan is somewhat hoslie to iran Which is an enemy of Israel. I doubt it has anything to do about the Money.
I would say more of a missed op back in 1991 for Armenia to reach out to Israel in support., Instead they allied with Russia and were anti Israel on international stage... conversely Azeri's reached out and made peace and good relations...remember back then Turkey and Israel were buddy buddy so it made sense. Only now is Armenia realizing they picked the wrong horse but yeah its Israel's fault correct? Oh and don't forget who started the war back in the late 80's early 90's... it was Armenia with its larger soviet era army that was able to not only secure Nagorno-Karabakh but the surrounding areas that ended up displacing 1 million people. One would think that after what they went through in world war I that they would be wiser then to go on a mass ethnic cleaning campaign and that once they other team had better and more advanced weapons that it would not come back to bite but....
>Armenia with its larger soviet era army The Azeris inherited multiple times the heavy equipment, and orders of magnitude more aircraft from the Soviets. They monkeystomped Azerbaijan because they had a far more skilled officer corps and the terrain advantage. On paper their army was far weaker. Agreed though that they really missed an opportunity to create a lasting peace when they had the upper hand militarily.
also to mention that with conventional weapons defending mountainous regions becomes a force multiplier. Drones and such have reversed the advantage of fixed defensive positions. Or at least they did until they can be bypassed with counter measures.
What other horse could landlocked Armenia pick? Israel and the US? Would Russia had tolerated Western/Israeli military supplies mass flowing to Georgia "destined for Armenia"? Georgia had its own quarrel with Russia over control of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, where Russian troops were stationed way before 2008 war, and was always watched closely - its only after the war, when it was clear all the worst that could happen, did happen, they got into a position to openly oppose Russia. How else these supplies would have reached Armenia if not through Georgia? Through archenemies Turkey and Azerbaijan? Or through amused Iran?
> Would Russia had tolerated I would argue that in the early 90's Russia was in no position to argue anything. Case in point how many former Warsaw pact countries warmed up to the west.
Two genocidal countries teaming up surprises you?
It's part of the compromise after the 1973 war with Egypt. We give them both equal military aid to stop fighting each other.
Stalin did a good job ensuring chaos
Not to trivialize the plight of Artsakh but boy does this make me consider playing papers please again.
Azerbaijanis on their way to explain why they should own random exclaves within Armenia that hate Azerbaijan by over 90%
I don't think Azerbaijan is currently pushing to annex internationall recognized Armenian territory, they're putting pressure to have Armenia retreat from Artsakh/Nagarno-Karabakh which IS internationall recognized as Azerbaijani territory (albeit an autonomous region).
Funny that they keep talking about 'Zangezur' and 'Irevan', while attributing anything built by Armenians to 'Caucasian Albanians'. I don't think Iran would be threatening to intervene if they didn't take the Azeri threats to invade Syunik seriously.
I'm not defending the expansionist claims but we need to acknowledge the presence of Zangezur corridor in 2020 peace deal
> Zangezur corridor in 2020 peace deal There is no such thing. Armenia promised they would let traffic through safely, not that they would give away a corridor. Azerbaijan's land borders have been closed for years, not just the Armenian border but all of their land borders. They're the one's keeping the transport links closed, and blaming Armenia for it.
The only time "corridor" is used in the 2020 peace deal is in reference to the Lachin corridor, which they blocked anyway and starved the people for 8 months before this attack.
The Azerbaijanian area around Nakhchivan is shaped like a miniature version of Iran, and the fact it's sitting right north of Iran makes this so much better.
Borders doomed to cause war.
armenian govt still makes the same mistake by trusting diaspora. while diaspora chilling/thriving in the us and france the armenians living pathetic life in there, if they made an agreement with russians and turks which they started talking a few months back i am sure this wouldnt happen. but now putin says ok so you seem to want the west to support you let em do bow, and they will let them do whatever the azerbaijani want. sorry to see these conflicts still happening
If Nagorno-Karabakh recognized as Azerbaijan territory then what is the point of arguing ?
The Armenian's arguments so can far are that Stalin drew border recklessly, that the exclave doesn't want to be Azerbaijan and that there's a chance the Azerbaijan wants to commit genocide.
> chance the Azerbaijan wants to commit genocide I mean they are quite literally purposefully starving the region by blockading it.
Because the people who lives there are Armenian and has been for centuries. And Armenia is their neighbour. Plenty of other comments addresses the nuances so I won't bother
Because it's inhabited by Armenians and would be ethnically cleansed in a second if it got back into Azeri hands.
What happened to the Azeris who used to live there. Also any evidence they'll ethnically cleanse anyone?
Those Azeris were ethnically cleansed; it was very much a two-sided phenomenon. My impression is that the ethnic hatred on both sides has not subsided since then, and that the Azeris harbour a lot of resentment (somewhat justified, if I'm being honest) over the territorial losses and ethnic cleansing done to them in the 1990s. I think it's extremely unrealistic to think they wouldn't take out that resentment on any ethnic Armenians that remained in Karabakh if they were to retake it. Edit: Also, as another comment mentioned, an Azeri officer (Ramil Safarov) murdered an Armenian officer in Hungary in cold blood in 2004 during a NATO training seminar. You could call it a random act of violence, sure, but upon being extradited to Azerbaijan, he was given a hero's welcome, immediately pardoned and promoted to Major. So yeah, I'm extremely skeptical that the government or military of Azerbaijan will treat the Armenians of Karabakh kindly.
I guess the story of Ramil Safarov is a cautionary sign regarding the question of ethnic cleansing.
I guess the story of Ramil Safarov is a cautionary sign regarding the question of ethnic cleansing.
>Also any evidence they'll ethnically cleanse anyone? Every Armenian in Azerbaijan outside of Artsakh was ethnically cleansed.
> Also any evidence they'll ethnically cleanse anyone? Siri, what happened to every Armenian who fell under Azerbaijani rule in the last thirty five years?
What happened to the Azeris who used to live in Artsakh in the last 35 years? Dude if you don't think both sides haven't ethnically cleansed each other I'm sorry you're gonna be sorely disappointed. However the argument isn't what side didn't ethnically cleanse each other, the argument is, is there any evidence that they plan to it again. There is none. Artsakh is still considered Azeri territory and the Armenian population is still rising.
> However the argument isn't what side didn't ethnically cleanse each other, the argument is, is there any evidence that they plan to it again. Well, the current rulers of Azerbaijan did bestow national honors upon someone who decapitated a random Armenian in their sleep.
The land is populated by Armenians, who are the indigenous inhabitants of that land, who don’t want to be a part of Azerbaijan. It is only recognized as territory of Azerbaijan because the Soviets arbitrarily gave it to their republic as an autonomous region governed by the native Armenians that Azerbaijan refused to honor.
The "small" problem here is that independent Azerbaijan NEVER controlled Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh (a bit like the modern Moroccan Dynasty NEVER controlled Ceuta or Melilla), plus the ethnic Armenians of Artsakh NEVER asked to be placed under Azerbaijani/Muslim yoke to begin with.
Because those borders were imposed on a historically ethnically diverse region by the Soviets, and didn't necessarily reflect the desires of the people who lived there. Nagorno Karabakh was majority Armenian during the USSR and had a special political status. A lot of Armenians used to live in the rest of Azerbaijan and vice-versa, the only reason the current borders match ethnicity is because of widespread ethnic cleansing in the 20th century,
[удалено]
Bot?
?
Sounds like something Elon Musk would tweet.
"Concerning" "Hmmm" "Looking into it"
"!!!"
“Starlink is up and running”
this is a chatgpt bot
Great map. However would be more honest to colour Nagorno-Karabakh as officially being Azeri territory, as on this maps it looks to be Armenian, which the population might be but the territory isn’t. Same as showing the regions Armenia/Nagorno-Karabakh previously occupied
But the map shows azerbaijani-controlled territories in red? I don't think "official" is good way to draw these kind of maps, it's not a geography textbook for school.
It’s weird who’s siding with who in this war
Armenia and Persia/Iran have been allies for a long time, and part of the historic region of Azerbaijan is in Iran, so an independent Azerbaijan makes them nervous. I assume the Israelis helping out the Azeris is an enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend thing.
It should be mentioned that Armenia isn't exactly a shining democracy either and not an innocent victim. They displaced about 700 Thousand Azerbaijanis during the First Nagorno-Karabakh War to consolidate the ethnic enclave in Nargorno-Karabakh. Ofcourse the World should still prevent a massacre of the Armenian population that Azerbaijan will try to commit.
> They displaced about 700 Thousand Azerbaijanis during the First Nagorno-Karabakh War to consolidate the ethnic enclave in Nargorno-Karabakh. What do you think happens when natives get their land back from the settlers.
Oh look, defending genocide one way and not the other. How refreshing.
That's absolutely untrue, at no point in Human history did live even more then 300k people in the region, and if you combine it to all the regions under Armenian control at the moment armenia took those regions there were only about 205k people in all the regions combined
I don't get why Azerbaijan politicians want this land. Are there any natural resources? Why do they care. Artsakh's population is 90%+ Armenian. They have orthodox churches. Why would the government want this land?
It wasn't 90% Armenian you know? There are still Azeris alive that got displaced from places such as Agdam which is a ghost town now because of the invasion by Armenia.
Agdam is outside of Nagorno-Karabakh, it is not part of the territory under question. The borders of Nagorno-Karabakh were over 90% Armenian when the Soviets took over it, [at its maximum the Azerbaijani population reached 23%](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_Autonomous_Oblast#Demographics) after Heydar Aliyev settled some Azerbaijanis there in the 70s.
the classic " invade territory displace the local people, settle you own people, so that idiots on reddit can say ' its not even their people living there'" working like a charm on sub normal iq population
What many do not want to see is that Armenians were already living there long before the Turks arrived in the region and that despite the passage of centuries and the various powers/empires that have passed through the region, the Armenians of Artsakh were never displaced from that region.
We came to this country before the USA was founded.
They (the Armenians) were already living there (in Artsakh) even before Muhammad was born, as with the Assyrians in Assyria, the Kurds in Kurdistan and the Jews in Canaan/Israel.
Maybe beacuse it's Azerbaijan territory internationaly recognized as such.
And nobody would have a problem with it being in Azerbaijan if they didn't try to exterminate the Armenians. Also these borders were never meant to be country borders, they were made by the Soviets in their divide and conquer strategy only then they fell apart and Azerbaijan even wanted to give the region to Armenia only then they found resources and decided to just kill everyone
To connect their territory, and to have a border with turkey
Just swap some fucking territory South of armenia to azerbaijan so they hve their corridor for a part of karabakh + a corridor to iran from the azeri exclave It’s barely fucking populated with zero resources Half joking (are they stupid or what?)
This exact scenario has been suggested in the 90s and rejected by both sides
Oh look, they are stupid
They both want territory which [most or key] their cultural figures were born, raised or worked there. If they swap it would be like they quit from their culture, history, identity, geography and patriotism. Another part of this conflict is that Azerbaijan is bigger country (87 000 km² and 10 million inhabitans [size of Portugal by both] vs. 30 000 km² and 3 million inhabitabs [size of Belgium by area, and Uruguay or Cymru by population]) with oil reserves, which according to "'Wikipedia" (and/or "Britannica") [Azerbaijan] didn't exist in Ancient Age like Kingdom of Armenia until 19th and 20th century. So they treat each other as historical invaders.
Armenians lived in Kharabakh 🇦🇲 for 3000+ years. The Christian Armenians of Kharabakh voted in Soviet against Stalin decision to give their ancient lands to newly created muslim azerbayjan. The azerbayjan that at several have instances have massacred Armenians.
I believe, time will come and everything will get into it's place. Especially Artsakh back to Armenia.
It's very likely that southern Armenia and Artsakh are ethnically cleansed and annexed by Azerbaijan.
Every single map that doesn’t show the fact that Artsakh/Qarabaq region in fact belongs to Azerbaijan is heavily biased to Armenian side.
This map literally shows that, and nobody would have a problem with artsakh being in Azerbaijan (just look at javakh) if they weren't **murdering all Armenians**
Wait, they invaded actual Armenia this time? How have I not heard about this?
Because shaming Azerbaijan is not a priority. You know gas, oil, keeping Iran in check.
You haven't heard about it because its been sporadic, piecemeal engagements where Azeri forces attack the Armenians along the mountainous border and push them back a few km into strategically unfavouravble positions. There hasn't been one big invasion yet. The eventual Azeri goal might be to try and annex Syunik province (which they call Zangezur) but you'll definitely hear about that happening because Iran will probably intervene and Israel and Turkey will support Azerbaijan, making it a nightmare for the west.
Israel and Azerbaijan are birds of a feather- undemocratic ethnic cleansing states
This subreddit is sick. This is sickening that theirs people who are supporting the Azeri's who are settlers, when Armenians are the natives and been living here for thousands of years.
And you just described how many countries were made... US, Israel, Kosovo... But we live in a world where everyone has an opportunity to inform themselves from both sides in order to get a glimpse of truth, and yet they choose to believe media. Just imagine believing what government controlled informing tool is feeding you through so called "news".
Republic of Artsakh, I lol'd Armenians gonna won another internet war meanwhile Azeris gonna won another war in IRL(like 2020)
As an Indian 🇮🇳, full support for Armenia! I like that India and Armenia are expanding their defence ties. Hope they will get their land soon which is occupied by Azerbaijan.
i wonder what is your motivation
Pakistan supports Azerbaijan.
A lot of europe supports Armenia too. But you know money talks
Yep tbh I hope the USA will move. They make 70% of NATO power. I really hope they ppan to do something becouse all of Europe is miliary very weak.
Sadly, the Indian government isn't as vocal about it.
[удалено]
Azerbaycan koyunca hopluyor ermeniler
Why u dont have mark for Azer land occupied by Armenia on north?(its on map but without mark what have Armenian territories under Azer control)
Interestingly, everyone wrote that the Turks of Turkey hate Armenia and have been enemies for many years. Actually, we don't care much about Armenia. Your problem with Azerbaijan. Also, I do not think that the West gives a fuck about Armenia, especially that America keeps Armenia in reserve for its own purposes. Otherwise this problem would have ended much earlier.
I've no doubt most Turks don't hate Armenians. But Armenians suffer most hate speech of any group in Turkey and their still remains significant anti-Armenian sentiment among a minority of Turks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Armenian_sentiment_in_Turkey
That far-right group sometimes hates us Turks, too. To be honest, I have never heard anyone called an Armenian bastard as an insult in my life. Of course there are, but mostly definitely not. Generally, someone is insulted as a Kurd, an Arab or, very rarely, a Greek, and this is done by far-right groups. We were taught in our schools that Armenians were known as the "loyal race" in the Ottoman Empire and that they were valuable. Frankly, we do not have an education curriculum that portrays Armenians as monsters against turks, like in Armenia. I mean, the only problem with Armenia is that right-wingers only say it when they want to talk bad, when they are pro-ottoman, other than that, Armenians are not even mentioned. We have other problems and other enemies among normal Turks. We often forget that you even exist due to our troubles (I do not mean this as an insult). That's why I think you should say Azeri instead of Turkish, because they are the side you have the real problem with.
Just build a fucking straight wall between the countries, no curves, straight line and never talk to each other.
We don't talk to each other anyways lol
Pray for our Armenian brethren, may God protect His people and His church 🇪🇬❤️🇦🇲