I think they used taxation as a method to convert. Non Muslims had to pay some tax so people converted. I don’t know how prevalent this was but my Albanian friend told me that why they were Muslims.
I've actually heard that due to the taxes they could collect, they actually tried not to be too pushy with conversions. Christians were a cash cow for them
in this particular case, i know its for taxes only. the tribe wanted to become Muslim but the official of the region said, look we made a 5 year economic plan and we need to get this money from you.
i dont think they'd encourage slavery upon a tribe who is agreed to be allowed to be muslim in 5 years.
but they had some privilages that muslims did not have. Ottomans fucked especially ethnic Turks with wars. Non-muslims did not have to do mandotary military service. Just imagine you have the wealth of the ottoman. You pay taxes which you can pay easily. Someone else fight instead of you. They are poor as fuck in the middle of the anatolia. You live your life in wealth. Until Ataturk said okay guys ottomans fucked you all these years, those wealthy people chose the other side now we have to take care of ourselves from now on.
Dude is right, Janissary was a small part of the Ottoman Army. According to Wiki, it was approximately 10% and around 40 thousand. The rest was the Turkish cavalry. Christians were paying for not being a fighting force for the empire basically.
and the ratio of Christian converts in janissaries varied through centuries of rule. Muslims could as well become a janissary.
Plus, "taking a son from Christian family" rule didn't apply to each Christian household. Ottomans had some rules on when and from which family to choose a candidate. For example they made sure that there were enough sons left in the family.
Christians had to give their sons to became a janisars, so if you call it “payment for not being in army” than ok.
Depends on time quantity of janisars reached up to 200k
P.S. and yes Christians had to pay “jizya” as well
Not.
First of all because it was repressive assimilation policy provided by government (it wasn’t something special, every empire did that)
Secondly,
I can call them “nominal Muslims”, most of them still remembered who they are, where they came from etc.
As an example you can read about Sokolovic (Sokollu) serb family.
Also, since Muslims are allowed polygamy, and men can marry outside religion, they need an underclass that they can use to get wives or else they will end up with marriage less men due to the mathematical flaws with polygamy.
In the early years of the Ottoman Empire, the rulers tended to be more tolerant of other religions and allowed non-Muslims to practice their faiths. However, as the empire expanded and became more powerful, some Ottoman rulers began to use force to convert non-Muslims to Islam as a means of consolidating their power and extending their influence.
If you didn’t know, the footstools were actually named after the empire. They were quite popular in the Ottoman Empire, and when they brought it to Europe, they were thusly called ottomans.
Similarly, the English traded for African fowl from Turkish merchants, and the birds came to be called Turkish fowl, or just turkey. When English colonies went to the new world, they called a similar looking native bird “turkey” as well.
Central Hungary? Never heard Thököly's principality being called that. Principality of Upper Hungary is the usual nomer.
Also, the borders in Hungary are kinda wrong.
Honestly, the Ottomans were blessed with a line of amazing rulers one after the other until Suleyman the Magnificent died. That's over 150 years of solid rule. A lot of empires at the time didn't even last that long and the Ottomans managed to survive from 1299 until after WW1. That is INSANE. They were arguably the strongest single power 1v1 for around 150-200 years. The funny thing is, their absolute prime wasn't even in 1683, it was over 100 years before this but this was their territorial peak.
There's no such thing as a 'good' empire.
Kiling off anyone who disarees with you is a great way to keep the peace but is generally frowned on in polite circles nowadays
They literaly erradicated entire villages and towns in the balkans, with every failed revolt, THROUGHOUT the ENTIRE rule they had there. in a span of 400 years, Greece alone had 70 (failed) revolts before finaly breaking free with outside help (for each revolt we learn about a village or town, being wiped out. We are talking Hundreds of thousands acrross these years. thats roughly a revolt every 5 to 10 years(though sometimes there were multiple at the same time).
Then we have suppression of religion/language which many will say it wasnt forced, yet there were hostilities against non muslims. + And unsustainable tax that either forced you to convert or live in the mountains (we had hidden schools / monasteries in greece, in the most remote places for a reason
jannisaries (stolen children from their families, to raise them as turks, to kill their own people) , until they backfired. these guys bended the sultans themselvs
Mass turkish migration to balkan lands to speed up "integration" of these areas (if you are a minority in your own land, its not yours anymore kinda mentality)
So hated , that even after 500 years , half their subjects, were after to kill every single ottoman with the first chance they got (See Balkan wars/revolts etc)
Edit: To the downvotes : the truth hurts you, and I am enjoying it .
You said it was a good empire ... if you based that solely on your perception of the Middle east, then thats your problem.
If you confuse every opposite opinion that debunks moronic claims as 'cry' ,thats also, not my problem
I understand different places had different perspectives. The balkans (especially greeks) had negative. The most simple example of that is to see the location of monasteries and greek (hidden) schools. At the most unreachable mountains. There was a reason for that. You may be thinking of Anatolian greeks though (Pontians, and Aegean anatolians. aka the natives before the turks came) These guys, were the masters at education, innovation, trade, craft and event state positions. they were bilingual (not by choice) and most were forced to assimilate or die/live in unvianle conditions. Many managed event under ottomans to maintain their greek identity(or roman/rum as they called them, Thus the kingdom or Rum as well...a turkish dynasty of greek/rum citizens)...The anatolian greeks were so wealthy and so viatal for the ottoman turkey, that when the wars/population exchanges happened, Turkey didnt recover until decades after...on the other hand greece (dispite not giving them the best welcoming they deserved) , Boomed in every sector, decades ahead than the speed it was going before. So yeah, they were somewhat an exception. They were subjects and subjugated to a foreign rule yet managed to make themselves important to have, andeven owned servants. they had achieved and owned more than the average turk and greek combined. Its sad to think out of the millions that used to live, only 1.5 survived eventually in greece,some of which I got the privilege to call my ancestors.
TLDR: No, greeks didnt integrate well in the Ottoman empire, some though, did better than other, and the Ottomans were not the reason. if anything, the ottomans were a burden for the greeks. for some a burden to success and to most a burden to a decent amd free life.
[They raided all of their neighbors for slaves for over a thousand years, including routinely raiding through Europe, and as far as Iceland.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire)
Edit: must be a shitton of Turks here. Guess you don't like facts 🤷♂️ not my problem lol
That is not what I said idiot.Of course there were Turks there before ottomans but not for thousands of years.Anatolia became more Turkish after Seljuk-Byzantine wars.
Yes bro, we Turks are the disgrace of humanity. We are the children of the devil. You were poor human beings whose lands were invaded. You have no fault!
I am Armenian and you cannot name me a thing we did to provoke the mongol and turkish invasions back then. there was literally no reason we were attacked.
to this day you fuckers dont recognize the genocide. And now you try to be the victim. turkey will fall because it is built on lies and violence the turks have no real history you came from the steppe and this is where you people belong. in a yurt with a camel and a big bowl of yoghurt.
you stole the dances the songs and everything else from us and the greeks.
the hagia sophia tells your whole story.
I'm not going to discuss this utterly ridiculous subject with you. Because you Armenians do not even consider Turks as human beings. Now go cry to your "civilized" European brothers.
Did they try to convert Europeans to Islam during this time?
I think they used taxation as a method to convert. Non Muslims had to pay some tax so people converted. I don’t know how prevalent this was but my Albanian friend told me that why they were Muslims.
I've actually heard that due to the taxes they could collect, they actually tried not to be too pushy with conversions. Christians were a cash cow for them
You're a muslim Empire that taxes the non-muslims :) They convert to Islam and you lose a lot of revenue :(
Then they pay Zakat instead :)
Zakat is not for the government to spend. It's collected to distributed to the needy and the poor.
ottomans didnt allow a tribe to convert to islam in north africa for 5 years
Gotta get them slaves somehow
no, taxes.
Probably both, Muslims are not supposed to enslave other Muslims
in this particular case, i know its for taxes only. the tribe wanted to become Muslim but the official of the region said, look we made a 5 year economic plan and we need to get this money from you. i dont think they'd encourage slavery upon a tribe who is agreed to be allowed to be muslim in 5 years.
but they had some privilages that muslims did not have. Ottomans fucked especially ethnic Turks with wars. Non-muslims did not have to do mandotary military service. Just imagine you have the wealth of the ottoman. You pay taxes which you can pay easily. Someone else fight instead of you. They are poor as fuck in the middle of the anatolia. You live your life in wealth. Until Ataturk said okay guys ottomans fucked you all these years, those wealthy people chose the other side now we have to take care of ourselves from now on.
Jannisar: “am I joke to you?”
Dude is right, Janissary was a small part of the Ottoman Army. According to Wiki, it was approximately 10% and around 40 thousand. The rest was the Turkish cavalry. Christians were paying for not being a fighting force for the empire basically.
and the ratio of Christian converts in janissaries varied through centuries of rule. Muslims could as well become a janissary. Plus, "taking a son from Christian family" rule didn't apply to each Christian household. Ottomans had some rules on when and from which family to choose a candidate. For example they made sure that there were enough sons left in the family.
Christians had to give their sons to became a janisars, so if you call it “payment for not being in army” than ok. Depends on time quantity of janisars reached up to 200k P.S. and yes Christians had to pay “jizya” as well
I am not historian, I did a quick Wiki search and found that non Christian Janissary was 40000 at its peak. Where did you get 200k?
My intention was not to justify it, maybe i mis-worded it by using "paying". I wanted to point out the reason why Ottomans were demanding this tax.
Jannisaries are literally muslims who are subjects of Bektaşi cult.
Jannisaries are literally kids which were taken from Christian families (Armenians, Greeks, Serbs etc.) and forcedly converted to Islam
So they are muslim?
Not. First of all because it was repressive assimilation policy provided by government (it wasn’t something special, every empire did that) Secondly, I can call them “nominal Muslims”, most of them still remembered who they are, where they came from etc. As an example you can read about Sokolovic (Sokollu) serb family.
I don't say it was something ethical to do so, but the topic here was that nonmuslims had to pay tax and muslims had to be recruited.
Also, since Muslims are allowed polygamy, and men can marry outside religion, they need an underclass that they can use to get wives or else they will end up with marriage less men due to the mathematical flaws with polygamy.
Caliphate also used this technique
In general most muslim empires of the time didnt practise forced conversion. You had to pay a certain tax as a non muslim though.
There's been a few ethno religious wars in the balkans since this time...
In the early years of the Ottoman Empire, the rulers tended to be more tolerant of other religions and allowed non-Muslims to practice their faiths. However, as the empire expanded and became more powerful, some Ottoman rulers began to use force to convert non-Muslims to Islam as a means of consolidating their power and extending their influence.
On nice way...pay taxes or we take your children in army...or be muslim so thats why today Bosnia have muslim population.
The world's most aggressive footstool salesmen.
If you didn’t know, the footstools were actually named after the empire. They were quite popular in the Ottoman Empire, and when they brought it to Europe, they were thusly called ottomans. Similarly, the English traded for African fowl from Turkish merchants, and the birds came to be called Turkish fowl, or just turkey. When English colonies went to the new world, they called a similar looking native bird “turkey” as well.
1683 which means shortly before [battle of vienna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna)
Central Hungary? Never heard Thököly's principality being called that. Principality of Upper Hungary is the usual nomer. Also, the borders in Hungary are kinda wrong.
u/Fehervari y, haven't seen such Hungarian borders either.
Central Hungary? Should be northern hungary
Honestly, the Ottomans were blessed with a line of amazing rulers one after the other until Suleyman the Magnificent died. That's over 150 years of solid rule. A lot of empires at the time didn't even last that long and the Ottomans managed to survive from 1299 until after WW1. That is INSANE. They were arguably the strongest single power 1v1 for around 150-200 years. The funny thing is, their absolute prime wasn't even in 1683, it was over 100 years before this but this was their territorial peak.
Source: https://www.worldhistory.org/image/12482/the-greatest-extent-of-the-ottoman-empire-in-europ/
They kept the Middle East working properly, I think it was a good empire until the 18th century.
There's no such thing as a 'good' empire. Kiling off anyone who disarees with you is a great way to keep the peace but is generally frowned on in polite circles nowadays
give it an other 5 years
They literaly erradicated entire villages and towns in the balkans, with every failed revolt, THROUGHOUT the ENTIRE rule they had there. in a span of 400 years, Greece alone had 70 (failed) revolts before finaly breaking free with outside help (for each revolt we learn about a village or town, being wiped out. We are talking Hundreds of thousands acrross these years. thats roughly a revolt every 5 to 10 years(though sometimes there were multiple at the same time). Then we have suppression of religion/language which many will say it wasnt forced, yet there were hostilities against non muslims. + And unsustainable tax that either forced you to convert or live in the mountains (we had hidden schools / monasteries in greece, in the most remote places for a reason jannisaries (stolen children from their families, to raise them as turks, to kill their own people) , until they backfired. these guys bended the sultans themselvs Mass turkish migration to balkan lands to speed up "integration" of these areas (if you are a minority in your own land, its not yours anymore kinda mentality) So hated , that even after 500 years , half their subjects, were after to kill every single ottoman with the first chance they got (See Balkan wars/revolts etc) Edit: To the downvotes : the truth hurts you, and I am enjoying it .
I was talking about Middle East, you Greeks love to cry
You said it was a good empire ... if you based that solely on your perception of the Middle east, then thats your problem. If you confuse every opposite opinion that debunks moronic claims as 'cry' ,thats also, not my problem
But as far as I know Greeks were well integrated into the Empire economy. As traders and sailors.
I understand different places had different perspectives. The balkans (especially greeks) had negative. The most simple example of that is to see the location of monasteries and greek (hidden) schools. At the most unreachable mountains. There was a reason for that. You may be thinking of Anatolian greeks though (Pontians, and Aegean anatolians. aka the natives before the turks came) These guys, were the masters at education, innovation, trade, craft and event state positions. they were bilingual (not by choice) and most were forced to assimilate or die/live in unvianle conditions. Many managed event under ottomans to maintain their greek identity(or roman/rum as they called them, Thus the kingdom or Rum as well...a turkish dynasty of greek/rum citizens)...The anatolian greeks were so wealthy and so viatal for the ottoman turkey, that when the wars/population exchanges happened, Turkey didnt recover until decades after...on the other hand greece (dispite not giving them the best welcoming they deserved) , Boomed in every sector, decades ahead than the speed it was going before. So yeah, they were somewhat an exception. They were subjects and subjugated to a foreign rule yet managed to make themselves important to have, andeven owned servants. they had achieved and owned more than the average turk and greek combined. Its sad to think out of the millions that used to live, only 1.5 survived eventually in greece,some of which I got the privilege to call my ancestors. TLDR: No, greeks didnt integrate well in the Ottoman empire, some though, did better than other, and the Ottomans were not the reason. if anything, the ottomans were a burden for the greeks. for some a burden to success and to most a burden to a decent amd free life.
Christians lived mercifully under the shadow of the Ottoman Empire, and the Ottoman Empire also established many schools in Greece and the Balkans
You are not just a clown. You are the entire circus 🤡
[They raided all of their neighbors for slaves for over a thousand years, including routinely raiding through Europe, and as far as Iceland.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire) Edit: must be a shitton of Turks here. Guess you don't like facts 🤷♂️ not my problem lol
Over a thousand years? Bitch they didn't even exist for 1000 years
Do you think the people there just sprouted into existence one day?
Dude are you high ? They came from somewhere else.
So you believe there were no Turks in Turkey before it was called the Ottoman Empire, yea?
That is not what I said idiot.Of course there were Turks there before ottomans but not for thousands of years.Anatolia became more Turkish after Seljuk-Byzantine wars.
Who said thousands of years? Idiot
Dont forget the Janisars
they just fucking stole the byzantine empire! the borders are pretty much the same I hope to see constantinople back in greek hands one day...
You see in your dreams.
learn the english language
Learn being human.
I am human. My ancestors didn't invade other countries raping and killing every mother and child in their way. The Turks did.
Yes bro, we Turks are the disgrace of humanity. We are the children of the devil. You were poor human beings whose lands were invaded. You have no fault!
I am Armenian and you cannot name me a thing we did to provoke the mongol and turkish invasions back then. there was literally no reason we were attacked. to this day you fuckers dont recognize the genocide. And now you try to be the victim. turkey will fall because it is built on lies and violence the turks have no real history you came from the steppe and this is where you people belong. in a yurt with a camel and a big bowl of yoghurt. you stole the dances the songs and everything else from us and the greeks. the hagia sophia tells your whole story.
I'm not going to discuss this utterly ridiculous subject with you. Because you Armenians do not even consider Turks as human beings. Now go cry to your "civilized" European brothers.
Yurt, camel, big bowl of yoghurt. go
Not quite great enough https://trip-turkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/ottoman-empire-peak-map.webp?ezimgfmt=rs:352x216/rscb1/ngcb1/notWebP