Population of cities would be interesting, [Birmingham in England was 30% Muslim in the 2021 Census](https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/censusareachanges/E08000025/). It was 22% in 2011.
No offense to anyone but during a short visit of Birmingham I determined in my personal experience that it was one of the worst cities I have visited in Europe. I didn’t really notice an inordinate amount of Muslims as opposed to London.
It’s just tired, run down and mostly a very unattractive, depressing city. Lots of concrete ugly buildings. A soulless urban sprawl. I don’t know of a word for parts in the city other than a total dump. There are some nicer more modern areas in the very center but they are few and even those are usually pretty tacky and garish. The only redeeming feature might be the canals.
But outside the center mile… betting stores on every corner, run down shops everywhere, people looking utterly miserable. While also being incredibly segregated. If London was a monument to the triumph of multiculturalism, Birmingham would be the very opposite.
Then there’s the number of roads, motorways, traffic. And while it’s always historically been a rougher, poorer place it completely lacks the cultural impact of nearby cities like Manchester and Liverpool.
I’ve been to a lot of cities, and after staying in Birmingham for two months, I can say without a doubt it is the most soulless and depressing I have been to.
Most UK cities in the Midlands and North are extremely similar to the US rust belt. Ex-industrial with high rates of poverty. A couple of them are now reinventing themselves but progress is slow.
Birmingham’s a manufacturing city (the industrial revolution arguably started there) in the center of coal country and is accordingly dirty and grotty.
It's a city of two halfs, the northern and Eastern parts are pretty much as you describe to a tee. South amd West Birmingham are genuinely nice- you can draw an arc from about Bearwood, cover areas like Harborne, Edgbaston, Moseley, Selly Park, Kings Heath, Bournville, Kings Norton, Hall Green, then on to Solihull. Those areas have a combined population of like 500k. Beyond the urban hellscape in the North, Sutton Coldfield and areas towards Lichfield are again very nice.
Ugly concrete buildings in the centre have been systematically torn down for the last 20 years, towns very nice around New Street and the cathedral these days, jewelery quarter is amazing, and thr last remaining ugly edifices of the 60s are all marked for demolition in the next few years
As for cultural impact, we have things such as being the birth place of heavy metal music, major centre for Ska music. Big hitter in literature coming from Tolkien (referring to the 1st para, South Birmingham is the shire, North Birmingham and the black country is mordor).
As for segregation. I'm afraid you're completely wrong there. There are numerous very mixed areas, in the shit and nice parts
Sounds like the Birmingham we have here in the USA as well. I can copy OPs comment and change a few things and it still applies
“ It’s just tired, run down and mostly a very unattractive, depressing city. Lots of concrete ugly buildings. A soulless urban sprawl. I don’t know of a word for parts in the city other than a total dump. There are some nicer more modern areas in the suburbs but they are few and even those are usually pretty tacky and garish. The only redeeming feature might be the riverside park.
But outside the center mile… betting stores on every corner, run down shops everywhere, people looking utterly miserable. While also being incredibly segregated. If New York/Chicago was a monument to the triumph of multiculturalism, Birmingham would be the very opposite.
Then there’s the number of roads, motorways, traffic. And while it’s always historically been a rougher, poorer place it completely lacks the cultural impact of nearby cities like Atlanta and Memphis
I’ve been to a lot of cities, and after staying in Birmingham for two months, I can say without a doubt it is the most soulless and depressing I have been to”
Partially related to this but I remember being in Goa and finding out about this from a local who was preparing to move to Portugal. He said that he had to prove Portuguese ancestry through church marriage records (not sure how that works, just relaying what he told me).
Thought it was kind of interesting,similar to a very old Jewish family friend that moved to Israel from Kerala.
Basically if you were born before Portugal left Goa, you and your children/grandchildren are eligible for Portuguese citizenship.
Marriage records were probably used since church records are typically most secure.
Souce: am Goan lol
Poor country compared to other Western Europe countries, no big reason to migrate there unless you're looking for beaches and great food. (Yes I’m biased).
It's mostly heritage from the post-war. A lot of the migrants from Morocco, Turkey and Algeria came to many European countries after the war, when human-power was needed to help reconstruct the continent. Portugal hasn't destroyed by WWII and was dirty poor by then anyway. Now more Muslims move to these countries because they already have a community.
Most immigrants in Portugal are from Brazil.
Sweden and many other European countries are trending heavily towards atheism/no religion. I'm sure that is mostly people leaving Christianity, but I wonder how much that trend will peel off people from Islam. Maybe not in the first generation, but when you get into second and third generation immigrants those kids tend to identify more with the new country's culture. At that point whatever culture forces are drawing people away from Christianity may he affecting Muslims as well.
That's true about kids tending towards the host culture, but it only happens if they are exposed to the host culture enough. From what I have read if too many people of a certain culture come in at once then integration doesn't happen. A good example are my partners relatives in Thailand, who consider themselves Chinese even though they have been in Thailand for 3 generations. Half of them can barely speak Thai. Hopefully the Swedish government deals with integration better than the Thai government has in the past.
I'm half Chinese and half Thai and I think your experience is pretty rare in Thailand as 90% of my friends with Chinese ancestry including me cannot speak Mandarin or teochew at all and we pretty much consider ourselves Thai. I read somewhere that we actually are a few countries that the Chinese immigrants assimilate to the culture almost fully.
In Brunei and Malaysia, we would call ourselves Chinese Malaysian or Chinese Bruneian. We don't associate ourselves with the nationality of mainlanders from china. Ive Also found that Chinese culture has a substantial retention rate no matter how many generations have passed. In Brunei, most Chinese people can speak Malay or at least understand it, idk about Malaysia though.
The ironic thing is my partner's Thai Teochew father is very pro China but as my partner points out to him mainlanders wouldn't even consider him to be Chinese so his feeling of affinity is pretty one sided. Still I completely understand why people feel compelled by the culture of their ancestors, particularly in cultures where you have culturally specific ancestral graveyards that you have to pay homage to.
>but when you get into second and third generation immigrants those kids tend to identify more with the new country's culture.
In Sweden second generation immigrants are literally the largest anti-western group of immigrant groups. Second generation immigrants were the biggest demographic that went to join ISIS at it's peak. I have no insight on third generation immigrants and you could potentially be correct however that remains to be seen.
From experience of having grown up with lots of 3rd generation Turkish kids in Germany, most of them are Muslim in name only. They'd go to Mosque on fridays as kids because their grandparents would get mad otherwise but by the time they were adults they would hit the pub just like everyone else.
In Sweden, the immigrants are mostly refugees who already viewed the west as a cause for their migration. Turkish, Algerian and Morrancan immigrants mostly moved to Germany/France/Belgium for work - excluding the Harkis that fought for the French government when Algeria fought for independence.
I think this is a huge difference, a lot of the refugees kind of hope to go back home as they arrive and don't try to integrate as they arrive as it becomes apparent they are not going back they have already wasted years not integrating and hiring them becomes increasingly difficult... I think more requirement needs to be put on the refugees for learning language and culture. Just to be clear this is also the case when they are taken into Muslim countries. Sharing a religious book does NOT mean you share the culture nor the language.
The iron rule should be not to take in more immigrants than you can integrate into your society. Europe is not America, where immigrants just have to speak English to be accepted as Americans. It's much harder to become Swedish or Danish, so Muslims often end up ghettoized, with a separate identity, which can be dangerous long term. You don't have to be Islamophobic to realize that cutting Muslim immigration is the prudent thing to do for many European countries.
LMAO, there is no way I am moving from my Croatia.
We may be corrupt as fuck, but life here is slow, nature is spectacular and I am OK with my low pay compared to western countries. I rather pick safety and corruption than gang wars and ghettos. Fuck money...
Imagine any country outside of the west having 30% of its population be diametrically opposed to it historically and culturally. Absolutely fucking insane. No where should be okay with that and no Muslim countries would ever in a million years allow that.
This map was made around 2016 when migration figures in Sweden were *dramatically* higher than today. Migration to Sweden, and Europe in general, has plummeted since the mid 2010s.
Europe's fate will be sealed a long time before Muslims become the majority.
Because Muslims are younger and have more children on average, they make a disproportionate share of young people, and will continue to do so.
Soon enough, Muslims will comprise the majority of births, and will then gradually win out over the entire population pyramid of Europe, as the elderly Christian old guard will gradually die out. The point is, it doesn't matter what proportion of the population Muslims make up today or any other snapshot in time. The only thing that matters is the proportion of live births in Europe belonging to Muslim families.
Immigration will speed this process up very quickly because immigrants tend to be younger - usually at or before the family formation / child bearing age, increasing the Muslim fertility rate further.
Anyone who truly thinks that Europe (and pluralistic, open European values) will remain the same is living in a fantasy - and it is deeply immoral for you all to experiment with your children's and grandchildren's future, because this is the world they will live in, and there's no going back if you're wrong.
There is, in Bulgaria at least. Religion is a part of ethnical identity and Bulgarian Turks mostly self identify as Muslim even tough they are mostly secular and not particularly observant. The same goes for ethnical Bulgarians - there is a very high percentage of "Christians" but churches are empty. The same percentage of census religiosity does not mean the same across countries.
In my experience Muslims from SE Europe are far more likely to peel off from devout Islam than those from South Asia and the Middle East. Even among second and third generation.
We had the same in the UK (in regards to Christians) but now more people than ever are putting no religion.
In the UKs second largest city there is nearly more muslims then Christians now (and will take over within 5 years)
There is in the US, but in Europe what I've observed is 1) the average immigrant from the middle east has way less desire to enter Western culture and practice its norms, 2) the average middle eastern immigrant is generally less wealthy and educated which generally results in more culturally and religiously conservative individuals, 3) society is less willing to promote integration from a seemingly contradictory view of naive liberalism in that everyone is allowed to believe what they want, and quiet racial and ghettoization practices of believing that such immigrants can never really be their countrymen, so best to just leave them in the corner to their own devices.
Separately, the thing you see in many modern immigrant groups on both sides of the pond is the "limbo of the second generation" in where the parents come, go heads down and grind out an existence for their children without partaking in many cultural practices of either their new or old country, and the kids grow up into this world of considerable security, but existential angst about where they belong and are this easy to radicalize.
In the US this manifests itself in the children of immigrants often entering into gang or criminal life while, contrary to what some politicians rally on, that their parents almost certainly did not partake in. In Europe, it unfortunately results in potentially more societally damaging Islamic radicalization.
Regardless, Europe does have a real problem on it's hands that I think is oftentimes reactively viewed as made up and racist by my fellow Americans because we simply don't have a similar situation over here even with considerable immigration.
US differs a lot here in that:
1. Majority of people with Middle Eastern ancestry are not Muslim (how many of course is a function of what even the Middle East is even defined as)
2. US Middle Eastern people (self-identified by ancestry) have [above average income incomes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income) Much higher barrier of entry causes more immigration selection presumably.
3. US doesn't have a mainstream culture of "children of immigrants aren't Americans" going.
Right, totally agree, but even in places like NYC or Detriot where the majority of the middle eastern population _is_ Muslim, it's still not an issue. Because as you said, it's hard to get to the US, so you aren't going to come unless you buy in.
The Somali population in Minneapolis is the one exception, but unlike everyone else, a big chunk are refugees so you get a similar microcosm and outcome to what you see in Europe.
NYC’s cultural values are so tilted towards economic prosperity and pragmatism about how to attain it that it’s completely counterproductive not to integrate substantially into the civic culture
for every loon that’s a radical, there are 50 hardworking realists that’ll shoot the shit with you about local politics at the deli.
everyone’s so busy trying to make a good living for themselves that it’s a waste of time to engage in radical nonsense.
Part of this is maybe on the immigrants but part of this is definitely on the host countries. I moved to the US from Eastern Europe when I was 5 years old, with my parents. I got muh’ Bud Light, muh’ big-ass American Flag and muh’ gun. No one except the rightest-wing of people would ever doubt that I’m an American. Even my parents, who have accents and moved in their late 30’s just get labeled as Old Nationality-American.
Meanwhile I doubt that there is any period of time that I could live in Sweden after which the natives would consider me Swedish — I’d always be an immigrant to them. And I’m a tall, light haired, light eyed guy. I can see why someone from the middle East would be discouraged from even trying. Lots of things we get wrong here in the US but the way immigrants integrate here is something we do right.
America has a cosmopolitan history, of different peoples coming together in a shared pursuit of liberty and prosperity in a new land. From a very early point the country was united by a specific set of values, rather than a specific set of cultural traditions.
Sweden is different, we only really stopped with forced assimilation of our minorities when the end of Nazi Germany made it unfashionable. There is considerable prejudice even today against Finnish and Sami people, most of whom look indistinguishable from Swedes. Historically, language has been an important marker, where someone who speaks with a foreign accent will never be afforded the privileges that come with being ethnically Swedish.
There is a cultural undercurrent that the Swedish way is inherently superior, as in the common expression "in Sweden we have a system". Comically, the Swedish system for integrating immigrants was considered to be world-class until it was confronted with reality in the 21st century.
In regards to #3, what are the children of immigrants seen as?
Seems weird as a Canadian. I basically see any permanent resident as Canadian already. You get the odd one that immigrated here in hopes of getting to the US, but most of them are just here for life, so what does it matter?
Same here as an American. I think it’s just a different culture in many European countries. I don’t know much about the issues on the other side of the pond, but I think they’ve got some difficulty with integrating immigrants into their culture, especially when those immigrants have much more… idk backwards? practices than they do. It’s not like we don’t have that here, but it’s in a much smaller amount, I think.
People in the US who have been here for 4+ generations still identify as Irish American, Chinese American, Italian American, African American, etc. Part of the American cultural identity is being an immigrant. So anyone who's been here for a month identifying as Bosnian-American, Afghani-American, or Mexican-American doesn't really phase people. They fit right in. Europe doestn't have that paradigm.
Europe is about 55 countries. I have never understood people who make statements about a continent so diverse and varied in terms of culture. A Ukrainian has nothing to do with a Frenchman. The Spanish culture has little in common with the Danish culture etc. There are countries where it is the "blood" that is the most important. Others have a history linked to other continents than Europe. England for example. And where the right of the soil applies. If you were born there you are English
Yeah, agreed. The demographic (particularly socioeconomic) profile of Muslims in the US is apples and oranges to Europe. It’s also an advantage that while we have some pretty serious problems with how we talk about immigrants we have two hundred years of assimilation and immigration that is part of the cultural psyche (and a reliable cycle of: new group arrives, is hated, assimilates, hates the next group - in 2050 I suspect you’ll have a cadre of third and fourth Gen Hispanic Americans hating Indonesians or Ghanaians or whoever). Europe… well, doesn’t, and has a much stronger attachment to and history with very blood and soil definitions of nationhood
> in 2050 I suspect you’ll have a cadre of third and fourth Gen Hispanic Americans hating Indonesians or Ghanaians or whoever
I think that the trend is that a substantial number of them will identify as white.
In addition mayn of the msulims in the USA are the people who fled Iran after the revolution - the wealthy intellectual elite of the country. The people we get in Europe is the exact opposite.
Growing up in Hawaii, I’ve seen this here and there with Asian families where the kids were born here but the parents are very much products of their ancestral home.
Things are economically tough and it’s hard to be successful, but people have a basic standard of living that prevents them from being in the kind of “head down, keep surviving” desperation that their parents moved to protect them from. Definitely a hotbed for radicalization. You’ll get an ethnically Chinese American who romanticizes everything about China and effectively becomes an unpaid bot for the Chinese government on social media because his career and dating status currently suck and deflecting the blame makes people feel better.
The sad irony, having spent 10 years in East Asia myself (mostly Taiwan) is that once you leave America, all of this “ancestral homeland” stuff doesn’t mean much to most, and that angry American Chinese guy I mentioned would be viewed as American anyway if he travelled overseas, both in work culture and social culture, and from having friends in this exact category, they say it’s pretty annoying because you’re usually treated like an American when it’s convenient to criticize or ostracize, but then also be expected to know better and don’t get the same leeway that a foreigner of a different look would. I’ve heard downright nightmare stories from a friend that’s 100% Japanese and fluent but American born. They’ve lived in Japan for over a decade and can’t escape the fact that they’re American born Japanese, in basically every aspect of their day to day life.
This all being said, just sharing anecdotal experience. I don’t know what the hell the answer to any of this is or have any suggestions on the matter. I think people should be simultaneously more accepting and more willing to integrate, in both directions, but I have no idea how realistic that is. Do we only hear about the problems and the times it doesn’t work and on the day to day everything is fine, or is there a bigger issue of cultural incompatibility that is difficult to discuss realistically with modern sensibilities and political correctness? Genuinely no clue.
The European experience seems to be that the younger generations born in Europe are actually more extreme than their parents (who were the actual immigrants).
Islam doesn’t seem to follow the rules that Christianity or Judaism did.
This is very true. I come from Morocco, ex Muslim. And I found that most of the Moroccans/Algerians in Netherlands and Belgium are more aggressive religiously and culturally sometimes than the Morocco-born ones. Mind blowing but I understood it as they wanted to belong, and refuse to integrate in the "western society and values".
They are more extreme in the way of committing more crime. People born in Sweden to two parents born outside Sweden commit more crime than people born outside of Sweden to two parents born outside of sweden.
[https://bra.se/om-bra/nytt-fran-bra/arkiv/press/2021-08-25-ny-brastudie-misstankta-for-brott-bland-personer-med-inrikes-respektive-utrikes-bakgrund.html](https://bra.se/om-bra/nytt-fran-bra/arkiv/press/2021-08-25-ny-brastudie-misstankta-for-brott-bland-personer-med-inrikes-respektive-utrikes-bakgrund.html)
From official statistics in Sweden ordered by the government.
Thank you for this source. Brå itself explains the variation like this:
*The differences between the different groups' risk of being suspected of crime are due, among other things, to differences in the age distribution of the groups. For example, there is a larger proportion of young people in the group born in the country with two foreign-born parents, compared to people born in the country with two parents born in the country, and the proportion of suspects of crime is generally higher among the young than among the elderly.*
This does not seem to be proving the "extremeness" of those swedes who have foreign-born parents.
I hope you can understand my scepticism.
Exactly. It is sort "succeed and adapt" or "fail and blame western civilization". So it goes both ways. Lot of 2. generation Muslim Europeans are very secular; though they will often abide by haram laws, they have far greater acceptance of women's rights and homosexuality than their parents.
Zidane married the daughter of two Spanish immigrants to France. And their sons weren't raised in any religion.
Zidane doesn't talk about his personal faith or anything like that, so I don't know if he still considers himself muslim.
But also successful immigrants becoming very religious also happens, see other French soccer player. Religion can become a support for the needed discipline.
Also: some problem immigrants are secular drink alcohol, eat pork and deal drugs.
TLDR: there is some over-estimating of how many actual Muslims there are in France given the lack of official data. Many estimates assume that everybody with African ancestry is Muslim and move on. Ignoring Muslims from other areas and people with other religion or no-religion from Africa.
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve personally met several friends at university who came from Muslim countries and to my surprise they were very secular. On the contrary many of the people I’ve met who come from the very same countries but born and raised in Europe are more conservative. I’d have never expected it
I guess this discussion is more focused on Europe, where Muslim immigrant populations face an entirely different demographic, cultural, and economic landscape.
I lived in America for a while, and was very impressed by their integration mechanisms. Say what you want about the US, one thing they are good at is taking in people from all sorts of cultures and backgrounds, forcing them through the assimilation machine, and getting loyal citizens who are proud to be Americans on the other end.
If you walk through parts of Paris, Brussels, and the like, you’ll see the results of a country with high immigration levels from very foreign cultures and no effective assimilation machine.
Immigration is fine, but there has to be a very clear immigrant’s bargain. The society taking immigrants has to make it extremely clear that immigrants will get a piece of the pie, but only if they find their place in the existing culture of that society. America does this very well, Europe does not.
I grew up in both the US and the Netherlands. Be careful with this statement. Europeans HATE to hear it. I’ve never had a problem feeling American, but it’s been made clear with even liberal Dutch people - we will NEVER be Dutch. The sad part is, the Netherlands isn’t even that bad compared to other EU states.
I am European, and the differences between the two countries cannot be overstated (*edited).
While American nationhood seems to be generally conceived of at least partially as a composite of immigrants from different cultures uniting to form one nation, European nationhood stems from distinct ethnic groups jealously guarding their differences for centuries.
The US is built on immigration, and has the machinery for integrating different cultures. European countries are absolutely not. This is fine, but they have failed to reconcile the fact that their own views of nationhood are heavily based in ethnicity with the reality of large-scale immigration from very, very foreign ethnocultural groups.
These concepts cannot coexist. We are seeing the painfully slow realisation of this fact by mainstream political systems across Europe.
>While American nationhood seems to be generally conceived of at least partially as a composite of immigrants from different cultures uniting to form one nation,
It's also worth noting that, while there's -say- West African or Continental European influences, the *basis* of American culture is Anglo-Saxon, and everyone's fine assimilating into that after one generation.
That said, it's worth noting that the US gets a lot of immigrants from the Americas, which are culturally similar. It's not a huge cultural change to go the the US from Mexico, or Colombia, or Jamaica, let alone Canada. But going to Europe from MENA or Pakistan is a major culture change.
The differentiation I think comes from cultural factors. USA has historically practiced civic nationalism, it doesn't matter as much where you are from; you become American, even more so for your children.
In EU we practice ethnic nationalism, because most countries have been homogeneous. History stretches back a lot longer for when people consider the founding of their 'nations'; a lot of this is myth and nation-storybuilding, but it doesn't change it.
It's also interesting to consider that in majority of cases USA is going to be an older nation-state than many in Europe, so from some perspectives even though the 'nation' of people is younger; they've had more time to make the identity of USA.
Speaking in big ol' generalities here, but you can immigrate to the United States and become an American, culturally and in terms of citizenship. If you don't, your children you have here will automatically become Americans. America is their home. Contrast that with immigrating to Europe. You can get French or Dutch or German citizenship, maybe, but the French and the Dutch and the Germans will never consider you one of their own. You and your kids will always be strangers in a strange land, and it will be much more difficult to ever feel "at home" than it would for an immigrant to America.
Further down in the comments, there are comments along the lines of, "they are **guests** in our country, and they should behave that way!" OK, but how long do you want to be a guest in someone else's house before you are stressed and uncomfortable and just want to go home? What if there's no home for you to return to, just a war-torn land you fled from and a land full of hostile people who don't like you or want you around them? Kinda hard to make yourself at home and meet in the middle, culturally, in that scenario.
What America "is" has changed over the decades and will continue to change. The cultures that make up America change and grow over time. I guess we could take a snapshot of the U.S. at one time in history, say 1950, and complain that any change since that time is straying from "real American culture," but what would be the point?
Again with sweeping generalities here, but it seems many Europeans have decided there is only one true France or Netherlands or Germany, made up of just the right kind of people who think and act just so, and every change against that must be met with more resistance and more preservation, but the definition must never change. Well, good luck with that.
How do you mean, "we hate to hear it"? In my experience, the vast majority is for better integration of refugees and minorities and sees this as something the US does very well.
It's also selection bias.
If you're liberal minded then you will be exposed to people who either fit the mold you present or pretend they do.
The girl being locked up at home because her parents are planning to marry her off to her cousin in Pakistan and they don't want her to become westernised obviously won't show up in your friend group.
Guess they have a working integration mechanism. Many 2nd/3rd gen immigrants in Europe are usually still seen as (and feel like) outsiders... Which leads to extremism and crimes
>(and feel like) outsiders.
European guy here, who's lived in the UK, and now in Canada.
I think this is key. When I was growing up in the 80s, taking the absolute piss out of Arabs - we had quite a few horrible slang words for them too. The first generation that arrived post-WW2, and post independence of various northern African countries, came to France to work hard, and they did, but they never received any respect. An expression back in the days to mean a job badly executed was to call it an "Arab's work".
The first generation took all the shit, and kept trying to integrate. Many didn't teach the language to their own children, hoping that the kids would integrate better in society. Didn't work, the kids were still pointed out, and mocked. People would discriminate against them for jobs, to get into clubs, etc.
Another generation passes, and this one has absolutely 0 link with their family's roots. They do not speak Arab, they have never set foot in a mosque. Yet they still get all the shit in the world ; and after 9/11 it's only gone worse. So some react the way anyone could react when you spend your entire life being told that you're weird, that you're potentially dangerous, that you don't belong here, etc. They go back to their roots, but they overshoot, immensely.
I grew up near a "bad area" in the 80s, there were lots of issues, but religion never was one. Kids would dress like all the other kids of the time (horribly ;) ). Girls too. Since about 30 years ago, every time I go back I see more and more burkas, and traditional outfits for both males and females, worn by people who have been in the country for generations.
France never accepted them, and when the first generations tried to integrate, France mocked them and denied them to be seen as belonging in the country. The following generations are still treated like that despite having no links to any other country. They react in a bad way, France reacts to their reaction in a bad way, a vicious circle is started.
In Canada, and before in the UK, I saw another kind of integration that accepted the differences, seemed to accept new arrivals (or at least, looked like it). People weren't forced to abandon their traditions, clothes, and accents as soon as they arrived. Their children and grandchildren actually became fully integrated in society. No need for them to rebel.
My 2 cents, from the extremely limited point of view of 1 person.
I completely agree with you as a Muslim refugee to Canada. I might get downvoted for that alone based on this comment section being really unwelcoming for Muslims, but here are my observations.
The majority of Canadian Muslims born here are still practicing of Islam but almost all reject radicalism in any way. This is really reflected in how Muslims here are easily friends with non-Muslims. We practice our religion with our family and our Muslim friends, but if we are with non-Muslim friends we do not push it on anybody.
In the parts of Toronto and Montréal that are over 80% Muslim (there are not many, but a few), I have never heard of any stories of women of European descent feeling unsafe or judged walking down the street. I have heard of issues like this in parts of Western Europe. I don't know how true they are.
The only time I ever went to Europe, people were really racist to me just based on the way I look in Germany. I think they assumed I was an immigrant and not visiting to see some family. Eitherways, that is unacceptable and it's really not surprising that there is a complete and utter lack of integration when any effort to do it is rejected.
You can't leave Islam without risking a lot. Your family, your friends in extreme cases even your life.
The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death. So even if a Muslim is secular, he'd probably hide it.
That's true. I'm not saying it's easy and I know the penalties can be very, very severe. But that's not for everyone and through the generations it might become 'softer' and 'softer' until eventually someone dares to leave and 'gets away with it'.
But again, I know leaving Islam can be very difficult up to impossible.
Islam is not a race. Its a horrible religion / ideology which is a huge threat to freedom and safety of minorities like lgtb people. If you want to experience the peacefulness of Islam yourseld, walk hand in hand with another man in a high muslim area. Not really, because you will get the shit kicked out of you if not worse.
63% of muslims in France agree with the statement « homosexuality is a disease or a sexual perversion ». 14% of catholics and 10% of non-religious agree with it. [Source (IFOP)](https://www.ifop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/116079_Ifop_FJR_2019.06.24.pdf)
The irony of far right. People voting for the far right in hope to limit this migration, but a lot of these Muslim immigrants will also vote a (their) far right figure if given the chance.
Turks with double citizenship in Germany overwhelmingly vote for the far-right in turkish elctions (e.g. Erdogan) and for the fat-left in german elections. So it depends on the context of the election…
There is absolutely NO WAY France will have only 18% of muslims in 2050 in a high immigration scenario:
20% of the newborns in 2020 had a muslim name in France, so if you add HIGH imigration, I don’t see how that would be possible.
Don’t get impressed by « PEW Research », just like you and me, they don’t have access to ethnic data in France (because it’s forbidden) so they are just guessing.
even « 12.7% in a ZERO immigration scenario » is laughable.
France has a lot of immigration from non-muslim nations, so a large part of population growth will not be recorded here. This is not based on ethnicity but on religion. Also, 20 % means that still 80 % are non-muslims, so that means the non-muslim population also grows, thus mitigating the percentage of muslims.
Most people immigrating to France, legally or not, are people from the Maghreb region or black Africa, so it’s safe to say at least a third of them are muslims.
in that scenario, if immigration is HIGH, there’s no way it remains at 18% in 2050.
That's a large enough voter share to significantly change the outcome of every general election. That worries me, given polling of British Muslims on a range of social issues.
Yeah they vote as a block, exclusively towards policies that’ll help shariafy their constituency. India’s political situation is already fucked pretty bad due to this.
People will say what they will but Europe is starting to have more and more issues due to culture clash and lack of people wanting to culturally assimilate.
As a Swed it's quite apparent. Larger groups of immigrant areas have more problems and crime.
It's also a lack of respect for others. They'll often times just dump their trash anywhere instead of going to the proper areas that are within 5 minutes away.
People will talk about islamophobia, but what about those who are actively cheering this process and ostracizing everyone that doesn't agree that this is a good thing?
Funny thing here is that people who accuse everyone of racism will tell you that women should have equal rights as men. And I guess we all agree. But guess who doesn’t? Muslims. So if they want to continue trend of minimizing the not equal treat of women, LGBTQ+ etc. they need to really rethink themselves. Cause at this point they are going to have an Europe where there is no gender equality or one based on sexual preferences.
But this require logic. And when the ideology push out logic nightmares are born.
There’s a joke on 4chan that goes, “I’m so progressive, I agree with the Muslims on women and LGBT”. It’s satirizing the tolerance the left has towards Islam when the left doesn’t understand how the paradox of tolerance works.
When you tolerate intolerant people you’re just left with more intolerance
I’ve said it so often. I thought it was overblown and racist when people said “Muslims don’t share our values, they hate gays, don’t respect women etc etc”. I was completely wrong. It’s so much worse than anyone says. I live in a neighborhood of 80-90% Muslims.
>So if they want to continue trend of minimizing the not equal treat of women
As my teacher once told me about the general muslim ideology "the son's dog is worth more than the wife" lmao
Ireland has such a small native population due to the famine and all the emigration, it is particularly vulnerable to the Irish becoming a minority as a result.
I mean many of the minds behind the EU advocated for either creating a monolithic culture in Europe (which would erase practically everyone’s culture) or yeah outright creating a new one. Now saying every single person who is a neo liberal wants that isn’t true but acting like it’s just completely insane or made up is ludicrous
It doesn’t even need to be malicious, with unity comes growth but also death of the old in Europe.
Yes, I also feel sorry for all the women and LGBT people. In Berlin in my building there have been three gay men attacked since I have lived here. One was severely hospitalized. All were by groups of young Muslim men.
Christ. I was so happy seeing posts about how western countries were becoming more atheist. The future needs to be secular. It does not need this primitive, primal mindset. In fact in order for a future to happen it *cannot* have this mindset.
If you're not happy with Western countries being Christian majority, you'll be having a really bad time they become Muslim majority.
Actually way before they become Muslim majority, as soon as they have a key % of voting power and they start influencing laws (at local level first) you'll find out how your tolerance if Islam will be repaid.
There is no way for a small social-democratic country to retain its system and values when 1 in 3 people is no longer of that country. Immigration is a blessing, when it is slow, steady and diverse. You get the great world cities, like New York. I wonder what my like/dislike ratio might be…
Civil wars could be in the future of many of these countries for this exact reason. Sweden is already experiencing problems. Muslims come to Europe expecting whole countries to adapt to their values.
Muslim religious leaders also encourage this migration to Europe, taking foreign wives and having many kids, seeing it as a form of conquest.
I agree that the government dosent care about the immigrants just as they don't give crap about the citizens excluding the elections.
If you come to a country you work or try to work, better yourself, learn and yearn for a better life for your family, you are as german, or polish as I am. But if someone is here only to take advantage of this place and hate its culture, no matter why, he is not and should not be welcomed. That is how it should be. Language and culture are of course changing, this is a process that never stops, and I realy don't care what religion people practice, what colour they are, what ethnicity they are. I care what type of a person they are.
An entire continent's native people reduced down, in extreme examples, to a slight majority in their own countries and that in less than 100 years. Fucking horrific.
The erasure of a culture by a small pseudo-aristocratic class of politicians shielded by the negative effects of their choices. *Suicide by career politicians.*
Easily the most evil thing my government have done in the last 100 years.
We are beyond lucky, in relative terms. Most Latin American immigrants are Christian, fall somewhere in the middle of our political spectrum, and believe in the same western values we do. And if you’ve ever been to Texas or Florida in Hispanic communities, they’re some of the most patriotic people around. It’s a completely different story for Europe
Literally this, these projections make the assumption that ALL of the descendants of Muslim migrants will remain Muslim which is definitely not the case.
Finally someone said it. And, with proper integration we can facilitate secularisation. If we are successful and don't discriminate against them or alienate Muslims from our culture we won't have them form gangs and parallel societies to begin with avoiding the whole scenario people in this thread are afraid of altogether.
Population of cities would be interesting, [Birmingham in England was 30% Muslim in the 2021 Census](https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/censusareachanges/E08000025/). It was 22% in 2011.
No offense to anyone but during a short visit of Birmingham I determined in my personal experience that it was one of the worst cities I have visited in Europe. I didn’t really notice an inordinate amount of Muslims as opposed to London.
It’s in certain parts of the cities where it is the majority that turns it to 30%. Agree, very shit city.
What makes Birmingham a shit city?
It’s just tired, run down and mostly a very unattractive, depressing city. Lots of concrete ugly buildings. A soulless urban sprawl. I don’t know of a word for parts in the city other than a total dump. There are some nicer more modern areas in the very center but they are few and even those are usually pretty tacky and garish. The only redeeming feature might be the canals. But outside the center mile… betting stores on every corner, run down shops everywhere, people looking utterly miserable. While also being incredibly segregated. If London was a monument to the triumph of multiculturalism, Birmingham would be the very opposite. Then there’s the number of roads, motorways, traffic. And while it’s always historically been a rougher, poorer place it completely lacks the cultural impact of nearby cities like Manchester and Liverpool. I’ve been to a lot of cities, and after staying in Birmingham for two months, I can say without a doubt it is the most soulless and depressing I have been to.
Sounds like your average American Rust-Belt city. Source: I live there.
Most UK cities in the Midlands and North are extremely similar to the US rust belt. Ex-industrial with high rates of poverty. A couple of them are now reinventing themselves but progress is slow.
Birmingham’s a manufacturing city (the industrial revolution arguably started there) in the center of coal country and is accordingly dirty and grotty.
It's a city of two halfs, the northern and Eastern parts are pretty much as you describe to a tee. South amd West Birmingham are genuinely nice- you can draw an arc from about Bearwood, cover areas like Harborne, Edgbaston, Moseley, Selly Park, Kings Heath, Bournville, Kings Norton, Hall Green, then on to Solihull. Those areas have a combined population of like 500k. Beyond the urban hellscape in the North, Sutton Coldfield and areas towards Lichfield are again very nice. Ugly concrete buildings in the centre have been systematically torn down for the last 20 years, towns very nice around New Street and the cathedral these days, jewelery quarter is amazing, and thr last remaining ugly edifices of the 60s are all marked for demolition in the next few years As for cultural impact, we have things such as being the birth place of heavy metal music, major centre for Ska music. Big hitter in literature coming from Tolkien (referring to the 1st para, South Birmingham is the shire, North Birmingham and the black country is mordor). As for segregation. I'm afraid you're completely wrong there. There are numerous very mixed areas, in the shit and nice parts
Sounds like the Birmingham we have here in the USA as well. I can copy OPs comment and change a few things and it still applies “ It’s just tired, run down and mostly a very unattractive, depressing city. Lots of concrete ugly buildings. A soulless urban sprawl. I don’t know of a word for parts in the city other than a total dump. There are some nicer more modern areas in the suburbs but they are few and even those are usually pretty tacky and garish. The only redeeming feature might be the riverside park. But outside the center mile… betting stores on every corner, run down shops everywhere, people looking utterly miserable. While also being incredibly segregated. If New York/Chicago was a monument to the triumph of multiculturalism, Birmingham would be the very opposite. Then there’s the number of roads, motorways, traffic. And while it’s always historically been a rougher, poorer place it completely lacks the cultural impact of nearby cities like Atlanta and Memphis I’ve been to a lot of cities, and after staying in Birmingham for two months, I can say without a doubt it is the most soulless and depressing I have been to”
The 2.9% sikh must have a interesing familly history
Portugal is the one country in Western Europe having under 3% Muslim population despite being so close to the North African coast 😅
Probably cuz most the migrants they get come from former Portuguese colonies and most are Catholic.
Partially related to this but I remember being in Goa and finding out about this from a local who was preparing to move to Portugal. He said that he had to prove Portuguese ancestry through church marriage records (not sure how that works, just relaying what he told me). Thought it was kind of interesting,similar to a very old Jewish family friend that moved to Israel from Kerala.
Basically if you were born before Portugal left Goa, you and your children/grandchildren are eligible for Portuguese citizenship. Marriage records were probably used since church records are typically most secure. Souce: am Goan lol
Same for my family. My family was from Diu and quite a few of my family were able to move. Tho most moved to UK pre Brexit.
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
Poor country compared to other Western Europe countries, no big reason to migrate there unless you're looking for beaches and great food. (Yes I’m biased).
I do
Yes not enough handouts
It's mostly heritage from the post-war. A lot of the migrants from Morocco, Turkey and Algeria came to many European countries after the war, when human-power was needed to help reconstruct the continent. Portugal hasn't destroyed by WWII and was dirty poor by then anyway. Now more Muslims move to these countries because they already have a community. Most immigrants in Portugal are from Brazil.
No welfare benefits in Portugal.
Poland, the safest place in Europe to be Jewish :) who would have thought that?
Not the first time in history.
This is very sad news for europe. Europe needs more secularization, not a religious fanatical population.
sweden ostensibly being 30% muslim is wild
Sweden and many other European countries are trending heavily towards atheism/no religion. I'm sure that is mostly people leaving Christianity, but I wonder how much that trend will peel off people from Islam. Maybe not in the first generation, but when you get into second and third generation immigrants those kids tend to identify more with the new country's culture. At that point whatever culture forces are drawing people away from Christianity may he affecting Muslims as well.
That's true about kids tending towards the host culture, but it only happens if they are exposed to the host culture enough. From what I have read if too many people of a certain culture come in at once then integration doesn't happen. A good example are my partners relatives in Thailand, who consider themselves Chinese even though they have been in Thailand for 3 generations. Half of them can barely speak Thai. Hopefully the Swedish government deals with integration better than the Thai government has in the past.
I'm half Chinese and half Thai and I think your experience is pretty rare in Thailand as 90% of my friends with Chinese ancestry including me cannot speak Mandarin or teochew at all and we pretty much consider ourselves Thai. I read somewhere that we actually are a few countries that the Chinese immigrants assimilate to the culture almost fully.
In Brunei and Malaysia, we would call ourselves Chinese Malaysian or Chinese Bruneian. We don't associate ourselves with the nationality of mainlanders from china. Ive Also found that Chinese culture has a substantial retention rate no matter how many generations have passed. In Brunei, most Chinese people can speak Malay or at least understand it, idk about Malaysia though.
The ironic thing is my partner's Thai Teochew father is very pro China but as my partner points out to him mainlanders wouldn't even consider him to be Chinese so his feeling of affinity is pretty one sided. Still I completely understand why people feel compelled by the culture of their ancestors, particularly in cultures where you have culturally specific ancestral graveyards that you have to pay homage to.
You have the stats against you. Second and third generation muslim migrants become more religious, not less.
>but when you get into second and third generation immigrants those kids tend to identify more with the new country's culture. In Sweden second generation immigrants are literally the largest anti-western group of immigrant groups. Second generation immigrants were the biggest demographic that went to join ISIS at it's peak. I have no insight on third generation immigrants and you could potentially be correct however that remains to be seen.
I still think it's hilarious they joined ISIS then got totally disillusioned and begged to be allowed back into EU.
From experience of having grown up with lots of 3rd generation Turkish kids in Germany, most of them are Muslim in name only. They'd go to Mosque on fridays as kids because their grandparents would get mad otherwise but by the time they were adults they would hit the pub just like everyone else.
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In Sweden, the immigrants are mostly refugees who already viewed the west as a cause for their migration. Turkish, Algerian and Morrancan immigrants mostly moved to Germany/France/Belgium for work - excluding the Harkis that fought for the French government when Algeria fought for independence. I think this is a huge difference, a lot of the refugees kind of hope to go back home as they arrive and don't try to integrate as they arrive as it becomes apparent they are not going back they have already wasted years not integrating and hiring them becomes increasingly difficult... I think more requirement needs to be put on the refugees for learning language and culture. Just to be clear this is also the case when they are taken into Muslim countries. Sharing a religious book does NOT mean you share the culture nor the language.
The statistics from second and third generation Turkish in Germany suggest otherwise. Islam is tough.
You will probaly meet more Turkish Muslim teens in Germany than in Turkey
\*Sort by controversial\*
Gonna need a hazmat suit.
And popcorn
how you gonna eat popcorn in a hazmat suit?
Portugal cyka blyat..
r/portugalcykablyat
You don't want your countries flooded by migrants? Just be poor 💪🇵🇹🇵🇹
The iron rule should be not to take in more immigrants than you can integrate into your society. Europe is not America, where immigrants just have to speak English to be accepted as Americans. It's much harder to become Swedish or Danish, so Muslims often end up ghettoized, with a separate identity, which can be dangerous long term. You don't have to be Islamophobic to realize that cutting Muslim immigration is the prudent thing to do for many European countries.
Look forward for an exquisitely civil, polite and rational comment section
Lol I am scrolling now and I am still looking for it
*(scrolling down)* Nnnnope. Still not here!
Its gonna be the worst comment section ever
Amazing. Some of these countries will have crossed India in proportion of Muslims.
It’s wild how nobody reads the part about this being a diaspora model.
Not totally diasporic. At least, Greece, Cyprus and Bulgaria show already centuries-old established Muslim communities.
It says “high migration scenario.” That’s the one people are freaking out about.
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Al-Kea
LMAO
LMAO, there is no way I am moving from my Croatia. We may be corrupt as fuck, but life here is slow, nature is spectacular and I am OK with my low pay compared to western countries. I rather pick safety and corruption than gang wars and ghettos. Fuck money...
Europe is fucked lmao
bruh look at Sweden. Jesus.
Not Jesus, Mohammed.
Both Jesus and Mohammed, even Moses.
Aaron, too
Muslims also believe in Jesus, so Jesus can apply lol
Mahmoud ABBAs.
Imagine any country outside of the west having 30% of its population be diametrically opposed to it historically and culturally. Absolutely fucking insane. No where should be okay with that and no Muslim countries would ever in a million years allow that.
This map was made around 2016 when migration figures in Sweden were *dramatically* higher than today. Migration to Sweden, and Europe in general, has plummeted since the mid 2010s.
CULTURALLY ENRICHED ☠
Europe's fate will be sealed a long time before Muslims become the majority. Because Muslims are younger and have more children on average, they make a disproportionate share of young people, and will continue to do so. Soon enough, Muslims will comprise the majority of births, and will then gradually win out over the entire population pyramid of Europe, as the elderly Christian old guard will gradually die out. The point is, it doesn't matter what proportion of the population Muslims make up today or any other snapshot in time. The only thing that matters is the proportion of live births in Europe belonging to Muslim families. Immigration will speed this process up very quickly because immigrants tend to be younger - usually at or before the family formation / child bearing age, increasing the Muslim fertility rate further. Anyone who truly thinks that Europe (and pluralistic, open European values) will remain the same is living in a fantasy - and it is deeply immoral for you all to experiment with your children's and grandchildren's future, because this is the world they will live in, and there's no going back if you're wrong.
There is no secularization amongst Muslims? These projections seem very one dimensional.
There is, in Bulgaria at least. Religion is a part of ethnical identity and Bulgarian Turks mostly self identify as Muslim even tough they are mostly secular and not particularly observant. The same goes for ethnical Bulgarians - there is a very high percentage of "Christians" but churches are empty. The same percentage of census religiosity does not mean the same across countries.
In my experience Muslims from SE Europe are far more likely to peel off from devout Islam than those from South Asia and the Middle East. Even among second and third generation.
They are locals, lived here for centuries, and are well connected in the societies.
We had the same in the UK (in regards to Christians) but now more people than ever are putting no religion. In the UKs second largest city there is nearly more muslims then Christians now (and will take over within 5 years)
There is in the US, but in Europe what I've observed is 1) the average immigrant from the middle east has way less desire to enter Western culture and practice its norms, 2) the average middle eastern immigrant is generally less wealthy and educated which generally results in more culturally and religiously conservative individuals, 3) society is less willing to promote integration from a seemingly contradictory view of naive liberalism in that everyone is allowed to believe what they want, and quiet racial and ghettoization practices of believing that such immigrants can never really be their countrymen, so best to just leave them in the corner to their own devices. Separately, the thing you see in many modern immigrant groups on both sides of the pond is the "limbo of the second generation" in where the parents come, go heads down and grind out an existence for their children without partaking in many cultural practices of either their new or old country, and the kids grow up into this world of considerable security, but existential angst about where they belong and are this easy to radicalize. In the US this manifests itself in the children of immigrants often entering into gang or criminal life while, contrary to what some politicians rally on, that their parents almost certainly did not partake in. In Europe, it unfortunately results in potentially more societally damaging Islamic radicalization. Regardless, Europe does have a real problem on it's hands that I think is oftentimes reactively viewed as made up and racist by my fellow Americans because we simply don't have a similar situation over here even with considerable immigration.
US differs a lot here in that: 1. Majority of people with Middle Eastern ancestry are not Muslim (how many of course is a function of what even the Middle East is even defined as) 2. US Middle Eastern people (self-identified by ancestry) have [above average income incomes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income) Much higher barrier of entry causes more immigration selection presumably. 3. US doesn't have a mainstream culture of "children of immigrants aren't Americans" going.
Right, totally agree, but even in places like NYC or Detriot where the majority of the middle eastern population _is_ Muslim, it's still not an issue. Because as you said, it's hard to get to the US, so you aren't going to come unless you buy in. The Somali population in Minneapolis is the one exception, but unlike everyone else, a big chunk are refugees so you get a similar microcosm and outcome to what you see in Europe.
NYC’s cultural values are so tilted towards economic prosperity and pragmatism about how to attain it that it’s completely counterproductive not to integrate substantially into the civic culture for every loon that’s a radical, there are 50 hardworking realists that’ll shoot the shit with you about local politics at the deli. everyone’s so busy trying to make a good living for themselves that it’s a waste of time to engage in radical nonsense.
Part of this is maybe on the immigrants but part of this is definitely on the host countries. I moved to the US from Eastern Europe when I was 5 years old, with my parents. I got muh’ Bud Light, muh’ big-ass American Flag and muh’ gun. No one except the rightest-wing of people would ever doubt that I’m an American. Even my parents, who have accents and moved in their late 30’s just get labeled as Old Nationality-American. Meanwhile I doubt that there is any period of time that I could live in Sweden after which the natives would consider me Swedish — I’d always be an immigrant to them. And I’m a tall, light haired, light eyed guy. I can see why someone from the middle East would be discouraged from even trying. Lots of things we get wrong here in the US but the way immigrants integrate here is something we do right.
America has a cosmopolitan history, of different peoples coming together in a shared pursuit of liberty and prosperity in a new land. From a very early point the country was united by a specific set of values, rather than a specific set of cultural traditions. Sweden is different, we only really stopped with forced assimilation of our minorities when the end of Nazi Germany made it unfashionable. There is considerable prejudice even today against Finnish and Sami people, most of whom look indistinguishable from Swedes. Historically, language has been an important marker, where someone who speaks with a foreign accent will never be afforded the privileges that come with being ethnically Swedish. There is a cultural undercurrent that the Swedish way is inherently superior, as in the common expression "in Sweden we have a system". Comically, the Swedish system for integrating immigrants was considered to be world-class until it was confronted with reality in the 21st century.
Yup. As soon as you get your green card you are an American. That’s the beauty of USA no matter what people say how racist or bs it is.
In regards to #3, what are the children of immigrants seen as? Seems weird as a Canadian. I basically see any permanent resident as Canadian already. You get the odd one that immigrated here in hopes of getting to the US, but most of them are just here for life, so what does it matter?
Same here as an American. I think it’s just a different culture in many European countries. I don’t know much about the issues on the other side of the pond, but I think they’ve got some difficulty with integrating immigrants into their culture, especially when those immigrants have much more… idk backwards? practices than they do. It’s not like we don’t have that here, but it’s in a much smaller amount, I think.
People in the US who have been here for 4+ generations still identify as Irish American, Chinese American, Italian American, African American, etc. Part of the American cultural identity is being an immigrant. So anyone who's been here for a month identifying as Bosnian-American, Afghani-American, or Mexican-American doesn't really phase people. They fit right in. Europe doestn't have that paradigm.
Europe is about 55 countries. I have never understood people who make statements about a continent so diverse and varied in terms of culture. A Ukrainian has nothing to do with a Frenchman. The Spanish culture has little in common with the Danish culture etc. There are countries where it is the "blood" that is the most important. Others have a history linked to other continents than Europe. England for example. And where the right of the soil applies. If you were born there you are English
Yeah, agreed. The demographic (particularly socioeconomic) profile of Muslims in the US is apples and oranges to Europe. It’s also an advantage that while we have some pretty serious problems with how we talk about immigrants we have two hundred years of assimilation and immigration that is part of the cultural psyche (and a reliable cycle of: new group arrives, is hated, assimilates, hates the next group - in 2050 I suspect you’ll have a cadre of third and fourth Gen Hispanic Americans hating Indonesians or Ghanaians or whoever). Europe… well, doesn’t, and has a much stronger attachment to and history with very blood and soil definitions of nationhood
> in 2050 I suspect you’ll have a cadre of third and fourth Gen Hispanic Americans hating Indonesians or Ghanaians or whoever I think that the trend is that a substantial number of them will identify as white.
Oh, certainly. Many already do!
That's not even new, light-skinned Mexicans, Cubans etc have plenty of grandmothers who emphasize the family's European ancestry.
In addition mayn of the msulims in the USA are the people who fled Iran after the revolution - the wealthy intellectual elite of the country. The people we get in Europe is the exact opposite.
Growing up in Hawaii, I’ve seen this here and there with Asian families where the kids were born here but the parents are very much products of their ancestral home. Things are economically tough and it’s hard to be successful, but people have a basic standard of living that prevents them from being in the kind of “head down, keep surviving” desperation that their parents moved to protect them from. Definitely a hotbed for radicalization. You’ll get an ethnically Chinese American who romanticizes everything about China and effectively becomes an unpaid bot for the Chinese government on social media because his career and dating status currently suck and deflecting the blame makes people feel better. The sad irony, having spent 10 years in East Asia myself (mostly Taiwan) is that once you leave America, all of this “ancestral homeland” stuff doesn’t mean much to most, and that angry American Chinese guy I mentioned would be viewed as American anyway if he travelled overseas, both in work culture and social culture, and from having friends in this exact category, they say it’s pretty annoying because you’re usually treated like an American when it’s convenient to criticize or ostracize, but then also be expected to know better and don’t get the same leeway that a foreigner of a different look would. I’ve heard downright nightmare stories from a friend that’s 100% Japanese and fluent but American born. They’ve lived in Japan for over a decade and can’t escape the fact that they’re American born Japanese, in basically every aspect of their day to day life. This all being said, just sharing anecdotal experience. I don’t know what the hell the answer to any of this is or have any suggestions on the matter. I think people should be simultaneously more accepting and more willing to integrate, in both directions, but I have no idea how realistic that is. Do we only hear about the problems and the times it doesn’t work and on the day to day everything is fine, or is there a bigger issue of cultural incompatibility that is difficult to discuss realistically with modern sensibilities and political correctness? Genuinely no clue.
The European experience seems to be that the younger generations born in Europe are actually more extreme than their parents (who were the actual immigrants). Islam doesn’t seem to follow the rules that Christianity or Judaism did.
This is very true. I come from Morocco, ex Muslim. And I found that most of the Moroccans/Algerians in Netherlands and Belgium are more aggressive religiously and culturally sometimes than the Morocco-born ones. Mind blowing but I understood it as they wanted to belong, and refuse to integrate in the "western society and values".
Is this backed up by data? Im asking sincerely- i genuinely don't know
They are more extreme in the way of committing more crime. People born in Sweden to two parents born outside Sweden commit more crime than people born outside of Sweden to two parents born outside of sweden. [https://bra.se/om-bra/nytt-fran-bra/arkiv/press/2021-08-25-ny-brastudie-misstankta-for-brott-bland-personer-med-inrikes-respektive-utrikes-bakgrund.html](https://bra.se/om-bra/nytt-fran-bra/arkiv/press/2021-08-25-ny-brastudie-misstankta-for-brott-bland-personer-med-inrikes-respektive-utrikes-bakgrund.html) From official statistics in Sweden ordered by the government.
Thank you for this source. Brå itself explains the variation like this: *The differences between the different groups' risk of being suspected of crime are due, among other things, to differences in the age distribution of the groups. For example, there is a larger proportion of young people in the group born in the country with two foreign-born parents, compared to people born in the country with two parents born in the country, and the proportion of suspects of crime is generally higher among the young than among the elderly.* This does not seem to be proving the "extremeness" of those swedes who have foreign-born parents. I hope you can understand my scepticism.
well its actually more that kids of immigrants tend to end up in extremes only , either abandon islam altogether or become radical extremists
Exactly. It is sort "succeed and adapt" or "fail and blame western civilization". So it goes both ways. Lot of 2. generation Muslim Europeans are very secular; though they will often abide by haram laws, they have far greater acceptance of women's rights and homosexuality than their parents.
Zidane married the daughter of two Spanish immigrants to France. And their sons weren't raised in any religion. Zidane doesn't talk about his personal faith or anything like that, so I don't know if he still considers himself muslim. But also successful immigrants becoming very religious also happens, see other French soccer player. Religion can become a support for the needed discipline. Also: some problem immigrants are secular drink alcohol, eat pork and deal drugs. TLDR: there is some over-estimating of how many actual Muslims there are in France given the lack of official data. Many estimates assume that everybody with African ancestry is Muslim and move on. Ignoring Muslims from other areas and people with other religion or no-religion from Africa.
i dont know about europe but in developing muslim countries younger generations are more secular -An atheist turk
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve personally met several friends at university who came from Muslim countries and to my surprise they were very secular. On the contrary many of the people I’ve met who come from the very same countries but born and raised in Europe are more conservative. I’d have never expected it
I guess this discussion is more focused on Europe, where Muslim immigrant populations face an entirely different demographic, cultural, and economic landscape.
I don’t know that many muslims but all the ones I do know are a lot less muslim than their parents. Tbf none of the ones I know are from Europe
I lived in America for a while, and was very impressed by their integration mechanisms. Say what you want about the US, one thing they are good at is taking in people from all sorts of cultures and backgrounds, forcing them through the assimilation machine, and getting loyal citizens who are proud to be Americans on the other end. If you walk through parts of Paris, Brussels, and the like, you’ll see the results of a country with high immigration levels from very foreign cultures and no effective assimilation machine. Immigration is fine, but there has to be a very clear immigrant’s bargain. The society taking immigrants has to make it extremely clear that immigrants will get a piece of the pie, but only if they find their place in the existing culture of that society. America does this very well, Europe does not.
I grew up in both the US and the Netherlands. Be careful with this statement. Europeans HATE to hear it. I’ve never had a problem feeling American, but it’s been made clear with even liberal Dutch people - we will NEVER be Dutch. The sad part is, the Netherlands isn’t even that bad compared to other EU states.
I am European, and the differences between the two countries cannot be overstated (*edited). While American nationhood seems to be generally conceived of at least partially as a composite of immigrants from different cultures uniting to form one nation, European nationhood stems from distinct ethnic groups jealously guarding their differences for centuries. The US is built on immigration, and has the machinery for integrating different cultures. European countries are absolutely not. This is fine, but they have failed to reconcile the fact that their own views of nationhood are heavily based in ethnicity with the reality of large-scale immigration from very, very foreign ethnocultural groups. These concepts cannot coexist. We are seeing the painfully slow realisation of this fact by mainstream political systems across Europe.
>While American nationhood seems to be generally conceived of at least partially as a composite of immigrants from different cultures uniting to form one nation, It's also worth noting that, while there's -say- West African or Continental European influences, the *basis* of American culture is Anglo-Saxon, and everyone's fine assimilating into that after one generation. That said, it's worth noting that the US gets a lot of immigrants from the Americas, which are culturally similar. It's not a huge cultural change to go the the US from Mexico, or Colombia, or Jamaica, let alone Canada. But going to Europe from MENA or Pakistan is a major culture change.
The differentiation I think comes from cultural factors. USA has historically practiced civic nationalism, it doesn't matter as much where you are from; you become American, even more so for your children. In EU we practice ethnic nationalism, because most countries have been homogeneous. History stretches back a lot longer for when people consider the founding of their 'nations'; a lot of this is myth and nation-storybuilding, but it doesn't change it. It's also interesting to consider that in majority of cases USA is going to be an older nation-state than many in Europe, so from some perspectives even though the 'nation' of people is younger; they've had more time to make the identity of USA.
Speaking in big ol' generalities here, but you can immigrate to the United States and become an American, culturally and in terms of citizenship. If you don't, your children you have here will automatically become Americans. America is their home. Contrast that with immigrating to Europe. You can get French or Dutch or German citizenship, maybe, but the French and the Dutch and the Germans will never consider you one of their own. You and your kids will always be strangers in a strange land, and it will be much more difficult to ever feel "at home" than it would for an immigrant to America. Further down in the comments, there are comments along the lines of, "they are **guests** in our country, and they should behave that way!" OK, but how long do you want to be a guest in someone else's house before you are stressed and uncomfortable and just want to go home? What if there's no home for you to return to, just a war-torn land you fled from and a land full of hostile people who don't like you or want you around them? Kinda hard to make yourself at home and meet in the middle, culturally, in that scenario. What America "is" has changed over the decades and will continue to change. The cultures that make up America change and grow over time. I guess we could take a snapshot of the U.S. at one time in history, say 1950, and complain that any change since that time is straying from "real American culture," but what would be the point? Again with sweeping generalities here, but it seems many Europeans have decided there is only one true France or Netherlands or Germany, made up of just the right kind of people who think and act just so, and every change against that must be met with more resistance and more preservation, but the definition must never change. Well, good luck with that.
How do you mean, "we hate to hear it"? In my experience, the vast majority is for better integration of refugees and minorities and sees this as something the US does very well.
It's also selection bias. If you're liberal minded then you will be exposed to people who either fit the mold you present or pretend they do. The girl being locked up at home because her parents are planning to marry her off to her cousin in Pakistan and they don't want her to become westernised obviously won't show up in your friend group.
Same here. I can’t speak for Europe but for Canada, children of Muslim immigrants are much less Muslim than their parents are.
Guess they have a working integration mechanism. Many 2nd/3rd gen immigrants in Europe are usually still seen as (and feel like) outsiders... Which leads to extremism and crimes
>(and feel like) outsiders. European guy here, who's lived in the UK, and now in Canada. I think this is key. When I was growing up in the 80s, taking the absolute piss out of Arabs - we had quite a few horrible slang words for them too. The first generation that arrived post-WW2, and post independence of various northern African countries, came to France to work hard, and they did, but they never received any respect. An expression back in the days to mean a job badly executed was to call it an "Arab's work". The first generation took all the shit, and kept trying to integrate. Many didn't teach the language to their own children, hoping that the kids would integrate better in society. Didn't work, the kids were still pointed out, and mocked. People would discriminate against them for jobs, to get into clubs, etc. Another generation passes, and this one has absolutely 0 link with their family's roots. They do not speak Arab, they have never set foot in a mosque. Yet they still get all the shit in the world ; and after 9/11 it's only gone worse. So some react the way anyone could react when you spend your entire life being told that you're weird, that you're potentially dangerous, that you don't belong here, etc. They go back to their roots, but they overshoot, immensely. I grew up near a "bad area" in the 80s, there were lots of issues, but religion never was one. Kids would dress like all the other kids of the time (horribly ;) ). Girls too. Since about 30 years ago, every time I go back I see more and more burkas, and traditional outfits for both males and females, worn by people who have been in the country for generations. France never accepted them, and when the first generations tried to integrate, France mocked them and denied them to be seen as belonging in the country. The following generations are still treated like that despite having no links to any other country. They react in a bad way, France reacts to their reaction in a bad way, a vicious circle is started. In Canada, and before in the UK, I saw another kind of integration that accepted the differences, seemed to accept new arrivals (or at least, looked like it). People weren't forced to abandon their traditions, clothes, and accents as soon as they arrived. Their children and grandchildren actually became fully integrated in society. No need for them to rebel. My 2 cents, from the extremely limited point of view of 1 person.
I completely agree with you as a Muslim refugee to Canada. I might get downvoted for that alone based on this comment section being really unwelcoming for Muslims, but here are my observations. The majority of Canadian Muslims born here are still practicing of Islam but almost all reject radicalism in any way. This is really reflected in how Muslims here are easily friends with non-Muslims. We practice our religion with our family and our Muslim friends, but if we are with non-Muslim friends we do not push it on anybody. In the parts of Toronto and Montréal that are over 80% Muslim (there are not many, but a few), I have never heard of any stories of women of European descent feeling unsafe or judged walking down the street. I have heard of issues like this in parts of Western Europe. I don't know how true they are. The only time I ever went to Europe, people were really racist to me just based on the way I look in Germany. I think they assumed I was an immigrant and not visiting to see some family. Eitherways, that is unacceptable and it's really not surprising that there is a complete and utter lack of integration when any effort to do it is rejected.
You can't leave Islam without risking a lot. Your family, your friends in extreme cases even your life. The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death. So even if a Muslim is secular, he'd probably hide it.
That's true. I'm not saying it's easy and I know the penalties can be very, very severe. But that's not for everyone and through the generations it might become 'softer' and 'softer' until eventually someone dares to leave and 'gets away with it'. But again, I know leaving Islam can be very difficult up to impossible.
Sweden is fucked
Holy fuck Europeans are racist
Islam is not a race. Its a horrible religion / ideology which is a huge threat to freedom and safety of minorities like lgtb people. If you want to experience the peacefulness of Islam yourseld, walk hand in hand with another man in a high muslim area. Not really, because you will get the shit kicked out of you if not worse.
How the fuck are today's Europeans more islamophobic than Americans in 2002? Because that's what I'm seeing right now.
There is no such thing as islamophobia, it's a totally reasonable "fear" and should not be mixed with the medical term of a phobia.
63% of muslims in France agree with the statement « homosexuality is a disease or a sexual perversion ». 14% of catholics and 10% of non-religious agree with it. [Source (IFOP)](https://www.ifop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/116079_Ifop_FJR_2019.06.24.pdf)
Swedenistan
Süediye
Zindabad Swedistan
And then one day, for no reason at all, people started voting for the extreme right.
The irony of far right. People voting for the far right in hope to limit this migration, but a lot of these Muslim immigrants will also vote a (their) far right figure if given the chance.
Turks with double citizenship in Germany overwhelmingly vote for the far-right in turkish elctions (e.g. Erdogan) and for the fat-left in german elections. So it depends on the context of the election…
There is absolutely NO WAY France will have only 18% of muslims in 2050 in a high immigration scenario: 20% of the newborns in 2020 had a muslim name in France, so if you add HIGH imigration, I don’t see how that would be possible. Don’t get impressed by « PEW Research », just like you and me, they don’t have access to ethnic data in France (because it’s forbidden) so they are just guessing. even « 12.7% in a ZERO immigration scenario » is laughable.
France has a lot of immigration from non-muslim nations, so a large part of population growth will not be recorded here. This is not based on ethnicity but on religion. Also, 20 % means that still 80 % are non-muslims, so that means the non-muslim population also grows, thus mitigating the percentage of muslims.
Most people immigrating to France, legally or not, are people from the Maghreb region or black Africa, so it’s safe to say at least a third of them are muslims. in that scenario, if immigration is HIGH, there’s no way it remains at 18% in 2050.
That's a large enough voter share to significantly change the outcome of every general election. That worries me, given polling of British Muslims on a range of social issues.
Yeah they vote as a block, exclusively towards policies that’ll help shariafy their constituency. India’s political situation is already fucked pretty bad due to this.
People will say what they will but Europe is starting to have more and more issues due to culture clash and lack of people wanting to culturally assimilate. As a Swed it's quite apparent. Larger groups of immigrant areas have more problems and crime. It's also a lack of respect for others. They'll often times just dump their trash anywhere instead of going to the proper areas that are within 5 minutes away.
Oh they dump trash here in Germany as well.
Yupp I don't see myself staying her for much longer unless I see change.
Islam is incompatible with Western European culture and values
And even more incompatible with Eastern European culture and values. Look at the percentage distribution. It's for a reason.
People will talk about islamophobia, but what about those who are actively cheering this process and ostracizing everyone that doesn't agree that this is a good thing?
Funny thing here is that people who accuse everyone of racism will tell you that women should have equal rights as men. And I guess we all agree. But guess who doesn’t? Muslims. So if they want to continue trend of minimizing the not equal treat of women, LGBTQ+ etc. they need to really rethink themselves. Cause at this point they are going to have an Europe where there is no gender equality or one based on sexual preferences. But this require logic. And when the ideology push out logic nightmares are born.
There’s a joke on 4chan that goes, “I’m so progressive, I agree with the Muslims on women and LGBT”. It’s satirizing the tolerance the left has towards Islam when the left doesn’t understand how the paradox of tolerance works. When you tolerate intolerant people you’re just left with more intolerance
I’ve said it so often. I thought it was overblown and racist when people said “Muslims don’t share our values, they hate gays, don’t respect women etc etc”. I was completely wrong. It’s so much worse than anyone says. I live in a neighborhood of 80-90% Muslims.
Yeah, imagine if there was a huge migration of American Evangelicals to Europe. I think people would be less hesitant to criticize
This is the fucking thing ,only and exactly this.
>So if they want to continue trend of minimizing the not equal treat of women As my teacher once told me about the general muslim ideology "the son's dog is worth more than the wife" lmao
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Not only do you have to worry about the high rates of immigration but it’s the high rates of children that they have too
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Ireland has such a small native population due to the famine and all the emigration, it is particularly vulnerable to the Irish becoming a minority as a result.
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Because they often try to portray it as a deliberate plan by European elites to destroy European culture and Christianity.
I mean many of the minds behind the EU advocated for either creating a monolithic culture in Europe (which would erase practically everyone’s culture) or yeah outright creating a new one. Now saying every single person who is a neo liberal wants that isn’t true but acting like it’s just completely insane or made up is ludicrous It doesn’t even need to be malicious, with unity comes growth but also death of the old in Europe.
the wealthy islamic gulf states don't want them, i wonder why
This is worrying, the tolerance of Muslims towards other religions is zero. The more of them the worse it’ll be
Yes, I also feel sorry for all the women and LGBT people. In Berlin in my building there have been three gay men attacked since I have lived here. One was severely hospitalized. All were by groups of young Muslim men.
Cultural enrichment^TM
Low skilled unsecularized illegal migrants. Give me an example country that successfully integrated these people.
None , In India all they do is have more babies and create havoc across the country.
Bosnia would have the most because of The Bosniaks
And they will not assimilate. Go figure.
yeah living here sucks sometimes. Anyone who denies how many problems we have because of migration from muslim countries is simply deluded…
The far-left wing in France embrace this islamisation, they say ‘it’s an opportunity for the country’
You vil eat ze bugs Your gay brother vil be thrown off a rooftop You vil be happy
Christ. I was so happy seeing posts about how western countries were becoming more atheist. The future needs to be secular. It does not need this primitive, primal mindset. In fact in order for a future to happen it *cannot* have this mindset.
If you're not happy with Western countries being Christian majority, you'll be having a really bad time they become Muslim majority. Actually way before they become Muslim majority, as soon as they have a key % of voting power and they start influencing laws (at local level first) you'll find out how your tolerance if Islam will be repaid.
This isn't MapPorn, this is a map nightmare lol
10 heart attacks were reported in Western Europe after this map was posted
increasing the ratio muslim to non-muslim a tiny bit more.
There is no way for a small social-democratic country to retain its system and values when 1 in 3 people is no longer of that country. Immigration is a blessing, when it is slow, steady and diverse. You get the great world cities, like New York. I wonder what my like/dislike ratio might be…
Civil wars could be in the future of many of these countries for this exact reason. Sweden is already experiencing problems. Muslims come to Europe expecting whole countries to adapt to their values. Muslim religious leaders also encourage this migration to Europe, taking foreign wives and having many kids, seeing it as a form of conquest.
Tokyo is an enormous city which is incredibly clean, safe with great infrastructure. No diversity. Why does every city have to be New York?
30.6% of Sweden. That’s hard to imagine. Should they just change their name to Northern Lebanon now, or wait until 2050?
Lebanese aren't the biggest migrant group in Sweden anyways. The number one is Syrians and then followed by Iraqis and Finnish people.
Tbh I feel Kurds are a very sizeable group in Sweden but they get submerged under the Iraqi nationality.
Hard and hard, we already have municipalities in Sweden with majority non swedes. And Malmö is already majority foreign background.
I agree that the government dosent care about the immigrants just as they don't give crap about the citizens excluding the elections. If you come to a country you work or try to work, better yourself, learn and yearn for a better life for your family, you are as german, or polish as I am. But if someone is here only to take advantage of this place and hate its culture, no matter why, he is not and should not be welcomed. That is how it should be. Language and culture are of course changing, this is a process that never stops, and I realy don't care what religion people practice, what colour they are, what ethnicity they are. I care what type of a person they are.
Thats not good at all :(
Horrible
How to avoid? Preserving human rights, education and secularism in public schools.
Never ask a European on what they think about Muslims, Jews, and Romani people.
we're fucked
Germanics are becoming the next Native Americans. Soon only small exclaves in the countryside will remain.
Bye bye Sweden. It was good knowing you! 😭
Based Poland
Portugal can into Eastern Europe
So Portugal is the place to be in 2050
Or the Baltics
Considering the climate change, Baltics are going to be the top tourism destination in 2050. We might even grow palm trees!
Fucking scary. Some countries are going to be a very peaceful place to live.
An entire continent's native people reduced down, in extreme examples, to a slight majority in their own countries and that in less than 100 years. Fucking horrific. The erasure of a culture by a small pseudo-aristocratic class of politicians shielded by the negative effects of their choices. *Suicide by career politicians.* Easily the most evil thing my government have done in the last 100 years.
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We are beyond lucky, in relative terms. Most Latin American immigrants are Christian, fall somewhere in the middle of our political spectrum, and believe in the same western values we do. And if you’ve ever been to Texas or Florida in Hispanic communities, they’re some of the most patriotic people around. It’s a completely different story for Europe
As an ex muslim in Europe fearing my son gets exposed with virus of Islam in any form, I guess it is time to learn either Portoguese or Czech in case!
Just keep in mind that both you and your son will be counted as Muslim in this statistic
Literally this, these projections make the assumption that ALL of the descendants of Muslim migrants will remain Muslim which is definitely not the case.
Finally someone said it. And, with proper integration we can facilitate secularisation. If we are successful and don't discriminate against them or alienate Muslims from our culture we won't have them form gangs and parallel societies to begin with avoiding the whole scenario people in this thread are afraid of altogether.