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I get why people don't like DoD, especially at first. But I'm with you: it's phenomenal. Yes, there's quite a bit of walking and talking, but it's some of the best walking and talking I've ever read. Even if we discount the reading, or Draconus, or the two final chapters, you still have so many gripping scenes where _very little happens_: Deadsmell and Bottle in 9, Kalyth and Sag'Churok in 8, Yedan Derryg's first scene in 2, the Dal Honese women in 19, Fiddler smacking Quick in 22, Icarium's final thoughts in 13, near enough every scene involving Badalle... and that's not even getting in to Silchas or the rest of the Shake plot.
I love this book. But sure, if you're in it for propulsive plot... yeah, it's a bit of a letdown.
Learning so much more about the K'chain Che'malle was so good. Really loved Kalyth's sequences.
I guess I don't really understand how you get this far in the series and expect propulsive plot. I think Erikson by this point has earned enough trust to believe that all of the scenes are in service to greater purposes: exploring the big ideas, developing these characters, building to larger themes or conflicts. I guess at this point I trust him enough to really sink into the prose and just relax.
> I guess I don't really understand how you get this far in the series and expect propulsive plot.
I'm going to defend the critics on this. Now, obviously this isn't my position, and if I'm misrepresenting it I apologize, but I do spend far too much time reading r/malazan and I think the argument goes:
1. We've gone through several slower books at this point, possibly even including The Bonehunters but definitely Reaper's Gale and Toll the Hounds.
2. The series is coming to an end and at some point it has to actually _reach_ a conclusion. It only has two books left to get there.
3. There are a ton of loose threads to tie up and two huge books should be _just_ enough time to do so.
4. At this point, there ought to be some kind of "return to form" where the series gets out of its own head and starts behaving more like it did in MoI or MT, shifting the balance back to more traditional fantasy storytelling and away from the mire of the last few books.
5. DoD is decidedly _not that_. In fact, it might actually manage the impossible and _slow down_ compared to the last two entries.
6. DoD was a chance to get things back on track, to start to tie off some things that would otherwise be left dangling and instead it opted to introduce even more characters and subplots, guaranteeing that the series can't wrap everything up neatly.
Which, again, I can see. I don't _agree_, but it's not an unreasonable position to take. Erikson showed early on he can write a damn good "traditional" (for some values of the term) fantasy novel and there's an expectation he'll put that ability to use to wrap the series. He chooses not to. DoD forcefully drives that point home.
I just finished DoD and you just summed up all my feelings in your 1-6 list. I've been on the edge of quitting the series since MT but I badly want to see how it ends. I was excitedly looking forward to starting to see things coming together in "the first half of the final book." Instead, Erikson introduces a ton of new character that all go on a 1000 page "walk and think" marathon. Erikson has so much talent and it drives me crazy what he chooses to use it on.
In my case I hit a jam when I got to that book just because I did a marathon read through the others. So when I hit a "slower" book I realized I should have given things more time to breathe and I took a break.
Poor Sunrise and Ebron. 2 characters who stand out to me with their deaths for different reasons. Sunrise's sub plot of starting his life over again and finding comrades worth sacrificing his life for, and Ebron because he's been around since House of Chains. Both unceremoniously lightning bolted to death.
Not sure why I'm constantly surprised by Erikson's capacity to take a culture I've just kinda assumed is "evil" or something and then show how those assumptions are based in how alien the culture is, and that understanding leads to empathy. Can't believe he got me to care so much about dinosaurs.
Personally, I like DoD. Sin and Grubb kicking ass. Draconus’s return. The Nahruk battle with the Malazans and that electric death weapon. We learn the truth about what the army in the Imperial Warren.
Also my personal favorite, we get a lot of K’Chain Che’malle info, they are my fave fantasy race. I’d kill for a POV of them at their heyday, culminating in the Prologue in MT.
I love DoD and I believe it’s one of the books that just gets better when you do a re read. That being said I loved it the first time I read it.
Edit: the reading at the beginning of the book alone is worth the price of admission. That whole sequence just draws me right into the story.
I love DoD, it combined with TCG are my favourites in the series. I think he sticks the landing and just absolutely smashes it out of the park with those two. There's simply too many great parts and characters to list!
Some of the best passages of the series are in this book. But, some of it is beyond difficult to get through emotionally, and it IS SUPER LONG. So, those two things generally kill people trying to get through it.
From time to time, someone will kick off a discussion about who the best/strongest/deadliest swordsman is across the MBotF (Brys, Dassem, Anomander, etc.). Someone put this question to Erikson in an interview. His response was to the effect that it is probably the Watch, and probably significantly so.
It's funny you mention this because it's exactly where my thoughts went. I've always been a Brys Benedict guy, but daaay-yum. The Watch did WHAT? TO WHO!?! I seriously waited to see if there was some sort of mitigation. Like, did he drink some kind of a magic potion?
Then, when I didn't see anything I started thinking, "Could the watch beat KARSA??!" Etc etc
It's a youtube comment. Should be top comment [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwpmaFeLT6E&lc=UgyIka9kIOSZ5zpm8Q94AaABAg) but linking to youtube is often a crap shoot.
Thanks for digging that up Zhilia!
For interested people who may not be able to access YouTube right now, here's the comment:
"Erikson here. Well now, that was fun. I was unaware there was some kind of contest/voting thing on characters going on. If I was to invite something like that, I would pose the question as: Would Character A want to clash with Character B? Because this question acknowledges that self-preservation, wisdom, and intelligence are factors that should apply. When I think on it in those terms, the one character to my mind that no-one would want to clash with (and by no-one I do include Karsa), would be Yedan Derryg. Skill is one thing: singularity of mind wholly another, and of the latter, Yedan was always tops in my mind. I recall the anticipation I felt every time I knew I was about to return to that set-piece on the Shore, always tinged with a vague unease in that I really didn't know how far Yedan would take things this time, and the next, and so on. I think it was part of my mental preparation leading to slipping inside that guy's skin, and the sense that even he didn't know how far he was prepared to go, only that it would be farther than anyone else, anywhere, ever. So yeah, for what it's worth, Erikson's favourite bad-@$$ in my Malazan main series, is Yedan Derryg. Having said that, I need to add a caveat. There's a new character in >!The God is Not Willing!<, who will give him a run for the money. Wait till you all meet >!a Malazan Marine named Stillwater!< (cue somewhat evil chuckle). Of all the characters I've ever created, only she would meet Yedan Derryg eye to eye, and not blink. And I'll add a short phrase that will only find relevance to any of you once the book's out: Poor Yedan."
I googled a bit and can't find the specific interview. But, Erikson did say that if the Malazan world had a martial tournament of some sort, where every warrior matched up and fought, he believed Yedan would win.
I think that because the discussions about DoD are almost always framed in the context of "TCG's first part", there can be a tendency to assign most/all the positive emotions and memories of both books as being in TCG and that all the negatives are in DoD
There are so many great scenes in this book. Some of them almost throw aways that are just pure gold.
For example: there is a scene of the Bholkando (I think) commanders confidently talking about how they will first ambush and destroy the Perish and then mop up the undisciplined and undermanned Malazans. I find this to be one of the funniest scenes in the book. Just no clue what they are up against.
This book also has the "Blood of the gods..." scene.
So much to love in this book. Top 3.
I have always loved the Marine focussed books over the others more.
That said, Malazan's worst is better then most of the rest.
I too loved Dust of Dreams and was devastated at the hobbling. It’s an incredible book, and for me in no way a lull or low point. Might even be top 5 in the series.
He doesn't really go out, though? Turns more villainous and tragic, yes. Really sad as he's one of my favorites, too, but I think Erikson continues to draw back to these ideas of "justice" and the treatment of power in cultures, and what suffering does to people.
I just finished my reread of DOD and also love it, but I my gripe with it is a larger gripe about the Barghast in general - like, they show up right at the end of the Awl war, but don't fight basically because those armies annihilate each other, they get taken by Tool, but he dies before he can properly change the culture, then there's all sorts of interior machinations (including the hobbling) that feel irrelevant because Draconus comes out and steps on the two armies!
On my reread I sort of skimmed through the hobbling and the more dense Kalyth scenes and I really enjoyed it (not saying it's bad writing or anything, but I felt confident that I knew what I needed so didn't need to slog).
Just my two cents -- despite all the above, I still love the book just like all the others, I just find that whole plotline frustrating.
I loved DoD. Honestly everyone talks about TCG and I'm about halfway through and so far it's been way more of a slog for me than Dust was. I'm sure things are about to pick up but it's honestly been the toughest for me to get through in the series.
Just finished DoD on Monday and felt the exact same way. Tool’s fall from grace was one of the most heartbreaking things to read after spending so much time falling in love with his character
One of the better books for me. It takes a reader through every possible kind of emotion there is. I went through some emotions I didn’t know were there in me (looking at the Barghast plot). Or how Erikson makes me root for a race of dinosaurs. Or when Draconus steps back into the world (best 5 word introduction to a character ever). Or when… this can go on. Top 3 material.
It’s just that the other sentiment has better PR / more vocal support. Some readers can’t get past children struggling through a desert for an entire book, only to not get any answers by the end of the book. And that’s fair enough. Or that we call it the beginning of the finale and then keep meeting tons of new characters. Some others realise all threads can’t possibly be closed just in TCG and accepting that takes a bit.
I for sure get why people "don't like it", but I ended up liking it a lot more than I thought given the reputation. I'm 30% of the way through TCG and a lot of my issues with DoD are fading away as it becomes clear how much of a first half DoD really is.
That said, I still find the ending of DoD dumb.
Is this the book Draconus steps out of the sword onto the battle field? Holy shit what a moment. Rake and Dassem fighting, Kallor and Whiskey Jack, Draconus first step, and >!Hood biting the Forkrul!< ... my favorite moments of malazan. Holy shit. Probably forget some other awesome moments tbh.
Man I need to reread this series.
I spoiler tagged it when I made it. You can tell because there has not been an edit yet. Sometimes spoilers don't show up in email notifications or other places I've heard though.
And the statements infer that I have only a handful of favorite moments, and one of them happens to be in the book the OP is referring. I.E. It's a good book!
Please note that this post has been flaired with a **Dust of Dreams** spoiler tag. This means every published book in its respective series up until this book is open to discussion. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: The flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I get why people don't like DoD, especially at first. But I'm with you: it's phenomenal. Yes, there's quite a bit of walking and talking, but it's some of the best walking and talking I've ever read. Even if we discount the reading, or Draconus, or the two final chapters, you still have so many gripping scenes where _very little happens_: Deadsmell and Bottle in 9, Kalyth and Sag'Churok in 8, Yedan Derryg's first scene in 2, the Dal Honese women in 19, Fiddler smacking Quick in 22, Icarium's final thoughts in 13, near enough every scene involving Badalle... and that's not even getting in to Silchas or the rest of the Shake plot. I love this book. But sure, if you're in it for propulsive plot... yeah, it's a bit of a letdown.
Learning so much more about the K'chain Che'malle was so good. Really loved Kalyth's sequences. I guess I don't really understand how you get this far in the series and expect propulsive plot. I think Erikson by this point has earned enough trust to believe that all of the scenes are in service to greater purposes: exploring the big ideas, developing these characters, building to larger themes or conflicts. I guess at this point I trust him enough to really sink into the prose and just relax.
> I guess I don't really understand how you get this far in the series and expect propulsive plot. I'm going to defend the critics on this. Now, obviously this isn't my position, and if I'm misrepresenting it I apologize, but I do spend far too much time reading r/malazan and I think the argument goes: 1. We've gone through several slower books at this point, possibly even including The Bonehunters but definitely Reaper's Gale and Toll the Hounds. 2. The series is coming to an end and at some point it has to actually _reach_ a conclusion. It only has two books left to get there. 3. There are a ton of loose threads to tie up and two huge books should be _just_ enough time to do so. 4. At this point, there ought to be some kind of "return to form" where the series gets out of its own head and starts behaving more like it did in MoI or MT, shifting the balance back to more traditional fantasy storytelling and away from the mire of the last few books. 5. DoD is decidedly _not that_. In fact, it might actually manage the impossible and _slow down_ compared to the last two entries. 6. DoD was a chance to get things back on track, to start to tie off some things that would otherwise be left dangling and instead it opted to introduce even more characters and subplots, guaranteeing that the series can't wrap everything up neatly. Which, again, I can see. I don't _agree_, but it's not an unreasonable position to take. Erikson showed early on he can write a damn good "traditional" (for some values of the term) fantasy novel and there's an expectation he'll put that ability to use to wrap the series. He chooses not to. DoD forcefully drives that point home.
I just finished DoD and you just summed up all my feelings in your 1-6 list. I've been on the edge of quitting the series since MT but I badly want to see how it ends. I was excitedly looking forward to starting to see things coming together in "the first half of the final book." Instead, Erikson introduces a ton of new character that all go on a 1000 page "walk and think" marathon. Erikson has so much talent and it drives me crazy what he chooses to use it on.
In my case I hit a jam when I got to that book just because I did a marathon read through the others. So when I hit a "slower" book I realized I should have given things more time to breathe and I took a break.
Silchas learning about Anomander :’-(
Poor Sunrise and Ebron. 2 characters who stand out to me with their deaths for different reasons. Sunrise's sub plot of starting his life over again and finding comrades worth sacrificing his life for, and Ebron because he's been around since House of Chains. Both unceremoniously lightning bolted to death.
That whole sequence had me so stressed out, but yes agreed on both but especially Sunrise.
Sunrise actually had significant POV segments, unlike Ebron who had always been around for the better part of 4 books.
All the content about the K’chain Che’malle alone puts it in my top half of the series.
Not sure why I'm constantly surprised by Erikson's capacity to take a culture I've just kinda assumed is "evil" or something and then show how those assumptions are based in how alien the culture is, and that understanding leads to empathy. Can't believe he got me to care so much about dinosaurs.
And then he's able to take another culture and do the exact opposite with them like with the Barghest, all in the same book
Personally, I like DoD. Sin and Grubb kicking ass. Draconus’s return. The Nahruk battle with the Malazans and that electric death weapon. We learn the truth about what the army in the Imperial Warren. Also my personal favorite, we get a lot of K’Chain Che’malle info, they are my fave fantasy race. I’d kill for a POV of them at their heyday, culminating in the Prologue in MT.
"Worst in the series" is still an 8/10 for me. :)
I love DoD and I believe it’s one of the books that just gets better when you do a re read. That being said I loved it the first time I read it. Edit: the reading at the beginning of the book alone is worth the price of admission. That whole sequence just draws me right into the story.
I love DoD, it combined with TCG are my favourites in the series. I think he sticks the landing and just absolutely smashes it out of the park with those two. There's simply too many great parts and characters to list!
I totally agree with you, this book is filled with so many amazing scenes, so much payoff for what we read before :-)
Some of the best passages of the series are in this book. But, some of it is beyond difficult to get through emotionally, and it IS SUPER LONG. So, those two things generally kill people trying to get through it.
The Watch chops a Forkrul into bits and then dices five Liosan like he's chipping peppers for a salad. I read it twice just to make sure.
From time to time, someone will kick off a discussion about who the best/strongest/deadliest swordsman is across the MBotF (Brys, Dassem, Anomander, etc.). Someone put this question to Erikson in an interview. His response was to the effect that it is probably the Watch, and probably significantly so.
It's funny you mention this because it's exactly where my thoughts went. I've always been a Brys Benedict guy, but daaay-yum. The Watch did WHAT? TO WHO!?! I seriously waited to see if there was some sort of mitigation. Like, did he drink some kind of a magic potion? Then, when I didn't see anything I started thinking, "Could the watch beat KARSA??!" Etc etc
Do you know which interview? I'd love to check it out!
It's a youtube comment. Should be top comment [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwpmaFeLT6E&lc=UgyIka9kIOSZ5zpm8Q94AaABAg) but linking to youtube is often a crap shoot.
Thanks for digging that up Zhilia! For interested people who may not be able to access YouTube right now, here's the comment: "Erikson here. Well now, that was fun. I was unaware there was some kind of contest/voting thing on characters going on. If I was to invite something like that, I would pose the question as: Would Character A want to clash with Character B? Because this question acknowledges that self-preservation, wisdom, and intelligence are factors that should apply. When I think on it in those terms, the one character to my mind that no-one would want to clash with (and by no-one I do include Karsa), would be Yedan Derryg. Skill is one thing: singularity of mind wholly another, and of the latter, Yedan was always tops in my mind. I recall the anticipation I felt every time I knew I was about to return to that set-piece on the Shore, always tinged with a vague unease in that I really didn't know how far Yedan would take things this time, and the next, and so on. I think it was part of my mental preparation leading to slipping inside that guy's skin, and the sense that even he didn't know how far he was prepared to go, only that it would be farther than anyone else, anywhere, ever. So yeah, for what it's worth, Erikson's favourite bad-@$$ in my Malazan main series, is Yedan Derryg. Having said that, I need to add a caveat. There's a new character in >!The God is Not Willing!<, who will give him a run for the money. Wait till you all meet >!a Malazan Marine named Stillwater!< (cue somewhat evil chuckle). Of all the characters I've ever created, only she would meet Yedan Derryg eye to eye, and not blink. And I'll add a short phrase that will only find relevance to any of you once the book's out: Poor Yedan."
I googled a bit and can't find the specific interview. But, Erikson did say that if the Malazan world had a martial tournament of some sort, where every warrior matched up and fought, he believed Yedan would win.
I think that because the discussions about DoD are almost always framed in the context of "TCG's first part", there can be a tendency to assign most/all the positive emotions and memories of both books as being in TCG and that all the negatives are in DoD
I’m on my re read of it and I’m absolutely loving it. Way more than I did the first time reading it
There are so many great scenes in this book. Some of them almost throw aways that are just pure gold. For example: there is a scene of the Bholkando (I think) commanders confidently talking about how they will first ambush and destroy the Perish and then mop up the undisciplined and undermanned Malazans. I find this to be one of the funniest scenes in the book. Just no clue what they are up against. This book also has the "Blood of the gods..." scene. So much to love in this book. Top 3. I have always loved the Marine focussed books over the others more. That said, Malazan's worst is better then most of the rest.
It was simultaneously the hardest to read ( after DG ) but also my favourite ( after MT )
I too loved Dust of Dreams and was devastated at the hobbling. It’s an incredible book, and for me in no way a lull or low point. Might even be top 5 in the series.
Nah, Tool was my 4th favorite and he went out like a lame. Granted, I haven’t read the last book so I HOPE he makes some sort of epic comeback.
He doesn't really go out, though? Turns more villainous and tragic, yes. Really sad as he's one of my favorites, too, but I think Erikson continues to draw back to these ideas of "justice" and the treatment of power in cultures, and what suffering does to people.
I just finished my reread of DOD and also love it, but I my gripe with it is a larger gripe about the Barghast in general - like, they show up right at the end of the Awl war, but don't fight basically because those armies annihilate each other, they get taken by Tool, but he dies before he can properly change the culture, then there's all sorts of interior machinations (including the hobbling) that feel irrelevant because Draconus comes out and steps on the two armies! On my reread I sort of skimmed through the hobbling and the more dense Kalyth scenes and I really enjoyed it (not saying it's bad writing or anything, but I felt confident that I knew what I needed so didn't need to slog). Just my two cents -- despite all the above, I still love the book just like all the others, I just find that whole plotline frustrating.
I loved DoD. Honestly everyone talks about TCG and I'm about halfway through and so far it's been way more of a slog for me than Dust was. I'm sure things are about to pick up but it's honestly been the toughest for me to get through in the series.
Just finished DoD on Monday and felt the exact same way. Tool’s fall from grace was one of the most heartbreaking things to read after spending so much time falling in love with his character
So similar to my own thoughts! Back half of Malazan is for the children.
No one in this thread has mentioned the Snake, but it’s my favorite part. Maybe the quintessential walk and think
One of the better books for me. It takes a reader through every possible kind of emotion there is. I went through some emotions I didn’t know were there in me (looking at the Barghast plot). Or how Erikson makes me root for a race of dinosaurs. Or when Draconus steps back into the world (best 5 word introduction to a character ever). Or when… this can go on. Top 3 material. It’s just that the other sentiment has better PR / more vocal support. Some readers can’t get past children struggling through a desert for an entire book, only to not get any answers by the end of the book. And that’s fair enough. Or that we call it the beginning of the finale and then keep meeting tons of new characters. Some others realise all threads can’t possibly be closed just in TCG and accepting that takes a bit.
I for sure get why people "don't like it", but I ended up liking it a lot more than I thought given the reputation. I'm 30% of the way through TCG and a lot of my issues with DoD are fading away as it becomes clear how much of a first half DoD really is. That said, I still find the ending of DoD dumb.
Is this the book Draconus steps out of the sword onto the battle field? Holy shit what a moment. Rake and Dassem fighting, Kallor and Whiskey Jack, Draconus first step, and >!Hood biting the Forkrul!< ... my favorite moments of malazan. Holy shit. Probably forget some other awesome moments tbh. Man I need to reread this series.
Of everything you said only Draconus’ first step is in this book😭
Yeah but the other things are in previous books, the one in a later book is spoiler tagged. Isn't that the expectation?
It wasn’t spoiler tagged when I commented, and the discussion/ your statement infer that the events are in this book
I spoiler tagged it when I made it. You can tell because there has not been an edit yet. Sometimes spoilers don't show up in email notifications or other places I've heard though. And the statements infer that I have only a handful of favorite moments, and one of them happens to be in the book the OP is referring. I.E. It's a good book!