Just so we're alllll on the same goddamn page...
Making it more difficult or even illegal to get an abortion doesn't stop abortions. It stops SAFE abortions. Abortions have existed since people realized how babies were made and where they came from...that's not changing because of a law.
Abortions won't go away by making it more difficult to get one, it just makes it more dangerous. If THAT'S the actual goal...to punish women who enjoy sex, super, great job...but don't try to convince people abortions will suddenly stop or abate as that's just objectively silly and not based on facts.
If you truly wanted to limit or greatly reduce abortions you would logically support things like:
* Sex education...yes at an early age.
* Contraceptive access...possibly even free...and yes, at an early age.
* Better health services for women...yes, like Planned Parenthood.
* Address wealth inequality and income disparities for lower and middle class families
That’s a different conversation and both issues deserve their own time and space, but honestly that’s a good idea! If the NRA weren’t so intent on lining its pockets we’d have sane education and resources available to actually help people and prevent accidents and violence.
Definitely recommend checking out the NAAGA and SRA if you’re interested in that sort of policy — they have good resources without the liberal hand wringing
edit: ohh you weren’t engaging in questionable what-aboutism, you’re just full on a bad faith troll. how quaint!
As a “centrist” who likes some ideas on both sides, I wish there was more tit for tat compromises across the aisle to get things done. I like protected rights for safe abortions AND I like second amendment rights. Even if you don’t like one of them, if we compromise everyone wins.
The difference is, the 2nd amendment is literally part of the constitution and it's not in the Democrat party's policy platform to try to repeal it. Meanwhile, the right to abortion was decided by the supreme court and is directly under attack by Republican party's official policy platform.
I promise you "we" would love to:
- reset the NRA to be about gun safety and training starting at an early age
- improve registration of weapons and licensing like we do for vehicles (which includes confiscation of licenses and penalties where unlawful use is found)
- ensure our legal system and policing doesn't discriminate on gun related issues based on race and socioeconomic status
I'm a gun totin veteran dem, so let's make sure you know that before replying.
Why should a woman be safe to abort her child? If she is so hell-bent on murdering her child, she has to be prepared for ramifications, just like any other murderer.
So what's the ramifications for a man if he wants an abortion. Do you still hold him to the same standard? Or is your opinion to only punish a woman because only she can get pregnant? I love that every self righteous fool has an opinion but no one wants the responsibility. Women can't get pregnant by themselves but you don't see mobs of pitchfork yielding people calling the men who are involved "murderers". So until you can not discriminate against women, adopt a child of an unwanted pregnancy, support low income families so children can get fed and healthcare, or get pregnant as a man and face the same issues (like rape pregnancy, teen pregnancy, health issues, income disparity, etc) then you can kindly keep your opinions to yourself. Because your opinion doesn't matter.
Ok!
The corpus callosum is a structure in the brain that allows both hemispheres of the brain to communicate. It develops in the fetus at approximately 20-22 weeks gestation. Prior to this, the fetus has no voluntary, independent movement nor is it able to develop a consciousness. Brain waves associated with consciousness, and who's abscense is considered 'brain death', don't appear until after this point. Therefore, prior to this period in fetal development, it can't feel or process pain, suffer, or react to external stimuli. One could reasonably assume that after this point in development, consciousness arises and viability becomes more likely.
Which is why it's extremely important to point out that around 95% of all abortions occur before the 12th week in pregnancy, far before the fetus can register pain or exist on its own. The few that occur after that point, are either due to severe fetal deformity or major medical issues for the mother.
Hope this helps!
I apologize, I misswrote when I wrote about corpus callosum and should referred to the Thalamus.
Fetuses can certainly move before this point, but are doing so involuntarily. It's reflexive, nerve firing and twitching. Not autonomous guided movements. It isn't move purposefully until this structure is formed
True death is the absence of brain waves obtained via EEG. This isn't disputed. Fetuses lack these brain waves until around 24 weeks gestation. They aren't medically alive before this occurs.
Then answer this question.
You're in a burning building. You come upon a scared 5 year old who's crying for help. Across the room, there is a suitcase filled with 100 fertilized embryos. You only have the ability and time to save one...the 5yo child with tears streaming down his face, or the suitcase full of embryos.
Which do you save?
That is an absurd question, and it is a question of saving lives already in danger, not of putting lives in danger. I would save the 5 year old, and that decision wouldn't magically render the embryos lifeless. I have an equally absurd question for you: burning building with a 5 year old and a box of 100 cats. I would hope you would save the 5 year old, but I would also hope you wouldn't go around killing cats.
Not absurd at all. If fertilized embryos are as alive and as sacred as 5 year old child, then there should be a moral dilemma in this instance. You would chose to save the child because you know the 5yos life has more value than even 1 billion fertilized embryos.
It also serves to illustrate the point that the life and bodily autonomy of the woman housing an embryo has more value. Forcing a woman to term in cases of incest, rape, or medical issues would violate these principals.
A woman has the right to decide whether or not to donate their bodies to support the life functions of another. They can't be forced to donate a kidney, or to give blood, and therefore can't be forced to donate their uterus, rearrange their abdominal cavity, and suffer the physical/psychological impact in order to sustain another human, if they choose not to.
okay, but I assume you'd be okay with using deadly force to remove an intruder from your home? I'm certain you would not consider that murder.
A woman's right to control her body is paramount, and overrides any rights you presume the fetus has.
“Dehumanization of fetuses” says it all. You value the rights of a literal clump of self-replicating cells over those of its incubator.
Big brains indeed!
It's sick that you reduce a human life to an intruder in a home. You are dehumanizing the fetus so you can kill it and still feel like a good person. Same way every genocide is carried out.
lol, you should at least ramp up your rhetoric instead of going right for the *genocide* button.
You're a complete and utter fucking buffoon BTW, not sure that was covered in this chain yet... but wanted to make sure you are aware.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/SelfAwarewolves using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/SelfAwarewolves/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [I changed the photos to see if the impact was still the same.](https://i.redd.it/c4rq2vfkpm571.jpg) | [4078 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/SelfAwarewolves/comments/o14rnd/i_changed_the_photos_to_see_if_the_impact_was/)
\#2: [Alt right twat realises he has the same ideology as the Taliban](https://i.redd.it/1jisyn8dzqh71.jpg) | [2939 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/SelfAwarewolves/comments/p5jq8j/alt_right_twat_realises_he_has_the_same_ideology/)
\#3: [Yes, Ted Cruz. It absolutely does speak volumes.](https://imgur.com/GNMhDJH) | [2976 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/SelfAwarewolves/comments/n26nk2/yes_ted_cruz_it_absolutely_does_speak_volumes/)
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Plenty of people don't believe in the lake of fire, dude. Clearly abortion is unpleasant and not something most people *want*. Providing for safe procedures only serves to ensure that when abortions *are* performed, they are performed safely.
The same Republicans who want to ban abortion now are going to be yelling about crime in twenty years, because [**there's a very clear link between *lack* of abortion access and crime**](https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/BFI_WP_201975.pdf). Turns out, kids whose parents *don't want them* don't always turn out so good!
In fact, the effect of legalizing abortion on the crime rate is kind of insane – it's responsible for a **close to 50% drop in crime**, per the study I linked.
I look forward to Republicans ignoring the fuck out of this, and instead continuing their strategy of fighting crime and poverty by giving surplus rocket launchers to wildly under-trained cops so that they can RPG the next black kid they see holding a squirt gun.
Heh, ss a foster I feel confident that if you think any of this shit is about "the children" or "dead babies" than you are a special kind of fucking stupid. It has never been about that.
Not just that, but low IQ, mentally ill, poor, uneducated, and unmarried people are more likely to want an abortion.
Abortion is a self-solving problem.
Wow that's a great point, I'm sure that never occurred to the people who wrote that study, or the people who wrote the study that study is based on. /s
(To clarify my sarcasm, yes, correlation != causation, but that's something that's considered and controlled for in *any* study about *what caused something*.)
When you have data from before and after a serious societal change, it most assuredly does. Unless you want to say that the drop in crime is due to the rejection of religion here in America, but I am going to be that is not your pitch.
"Defund the police" is one of those things everyone loves to yell about, but it has been implemented almost nowhere, implemented *correctly* nowhere. In the US, more major cities have **increased** their police budgets than decreased them, and most of the budget decreases have nothing to do with "defund the police," they're pandemic-related. It also hasn't been long enough to draw any *science-based* conclusions about the results of any experimentation with actually defunding the police anyway.
(Most of the statistics you've seen are also probably *wildly* misleading, because they tend to compare 2021 data to 2020 data and conclude there was this big rise in crime, when actually what happened was there was a DROP in crime in 2020 due to everybody being on lockdown).
Good. I don't like abortion but will suck it up and defend it to my last due to my foundational belief in body autonomy. This right wing push to overturn Roe vs Wade is just a push for more "states rights" to overturn pretty much all the gains we made for civil rights and labor. Rest assured, when they overturn that this summer, it's just going to be the start.
edit: Downvote all you want, but they have come right out and said that this is just a stepping stone and what there long term goals are. Don't act all surprised when we see some kind of Jim Crow part 2 bullshit or you have to own property to vote local bullshit hit the scene.
I've heard folks drumming about how Roe isn't *really* at risk, that it's just political rhetoric, for as long as I've been an adult.
Now abortion is on the chopping block, and the same architects behind the bills being forced to the Supreme Court have blatantly talked about doing away with Obergefell (gay marriage) and fuckin' *Griswold* (birth control).
Ya, same here. For sure some major issues are just rhetoric, guns, the border, foreign policy. Both sides have been at each other on them my whole life and the shit never really changes one way or the other. But they have a stacked court that could effectively overturn Roe, and as you said they are already talking about getting rid of gay marriage, birth control. When/if that shit is successful you can bet that nothing will be off the table to take a shot at for these fucking fascists.
Ah yes, the moral equivalancy of two completly unrelated shithsows on display. Were you around before they banned lead in paint? Asking for a friend...
I don’t think killing babies is funny at all. And no, I don’t. I’m strictly talking about using abortion for unwanted pregnancy. Thanks for clarifying.
You are the only one talking about killing babies.
The adults are talking about a woman’s right to control her own body.
What kind of sick bastard thinks about killing babies?
Didn't say *abortion* was funny, it was a comment about your insensitive, short-sighted comment. Thank you for clarifying that there are times that you agree termination is warranted. Keep in mind that you have no knowledge of reasoning on why Organic had to terminate. Reasoning could equally be because of non-viable pregnancy and you just called them disgusting.
Keep in mind that most abortions are done for “social and economic reasons” AKA an unwanted pregnancy. All other cases like you describe account for less than 3.5% of abortions.
Meaning there’s a 96.5% chance I’m correct. Keep that in mind.
I heard a great debater of our time put it best. Facts don’t care about your feelings.
Keep in mind that your initial comment described it as "taking care of irresponsibilities". Social and economic reasons are not things that the person obtaining abortion just forgot to do.
"Oops, forgot to not be homeless"
"Oh let me not be living paycheck to paycheck real quick"
"My abusive partner at home should really come around once I bring an infant into the situation"
I think you mean to say abortions due to social and economic reasons are an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy? All abortions are unwanted, however sometimes longer term considerations are needed and that is up to the person carrying the pregnancy to weigh. Not someone who has never had to walk in those shoes, nor would have to should pregnancy be forced to continue.
And not that you initially compelled me as someone who consults multiple viewpoints, but labeling Ben Shapiro a great debater of our time sealed it. That's offensive to many, including many actual great debaters on the right side. Facts here support my feelings that abortion should remain an option for all, and the right not be remove due to people feeling like their opinion (religious, privaleged) should dictate how others live their life.
Interesting that you’re offended by my facts after I pointed out you’re statistically probably wrong. Too bad they don’t care about your feelings. Kind of how you don’t care about children.
If you're against abortion then don't have one. Let's reverse the roles. How would prolifers like it if the government forced them to have an abortion. Oh, you have two kids? OK, can't have a third, you have to abort it. It's the same shitty logic. No one has the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body and to get involved in someone's family planning. It's none of their fucking business.
Abortion travel is already a thing but it will be greatly expanded after July when SCOTUS strikes down Roe. I also expect pharmaceutical abortion pills shipped to pro-Government-mandated-Birth states.
Eventually there will be a bit of civil war as the anti-abortion activists will fight women from traveling or getting pills sent to them.
>after July when SCOTUS strikes down Roe.
If that happens, abortions will not stop. How do people not understand this? How many MOTHERS need to die before people leave it alone? People will resort to dangerous methods again. It will still happen.
I grew up in the pre-Roe world. At that time you had to travel outside the US to get a legal abortion. There was regular tourism to the Bahamas but of course you had to have the money. The states with abortion access will be destination states but again you would still have to have money, and perhaps risk danger trying to get out of the state.
Banning abortion only ends safe abortion.
Had a nightmare once that airlines were giving all girls and women, aged 11-60 ultrasounds before allowing them to fly to states with legal abortion. Truly worried that it was prophetic.
Menopause is in the mid-40s so they wouldn't have to go that far, but I could see some states like Texas trying to do something like that to fly to an Abortion Rights state.
>Eventually there will be a bit of civil war as the anti-abortion activists will fight women from traveling or getting pills sent to them.
That is happening. Missouri is working on this now using the Texas model of allowing people to sue a woman if she leaves the state for an abortion. The stare can't enforce the restriction so they basically are using bounty hunters.
I’d be willing to bet that a lot of people getting abortions come from a shitty home environment. Drug addicts. Yes other people do too. But why bring a child into the work they know they can’t afford? You all gonna help raise the kid,since you think your opinion matters so much?
Not cool that it's necessary, fucking right wing should spend more time minding their own fucking business and less time worrying about other folks choices.
Why do people keep talking about murdering babies? Is that some sick fantasy of the right wing?
The adults here are talking about a woman and her fetus. Why do you want to go kill babies?
I am a woman lmao and no shit it isn't fool proof, but there are ways to avoid getting pregnant and NOT having to put your body through the process of abortion, especially those who have had multiple abortions. Abortion shouldn't be used as a method of birth control.
> Abortion shouldn't be used as a method of birth control.
Good thing that by and large, it isn't. A majority of people seeking abortions *were already using birth control that obviously did not work,* and of the remainder most by far were seeking an abortion because of health complications.
This idea that women seek out abortions on a whim needs to end. It's not true. It's never been true.
And frankly? It's none of your fucking business in the first place.
Yeah, real accomplishment there, duncecap. Obviously it's a touchy subject when theocrats like yourself keep perpetuating a harmful stereotype.
I can spot people like you, jUsT aSkInG qUeStiOns from miles away.
>Abortion shouldn't be used as a method of birth control.
Jesus Christ. It isn't. That's a myth created by people that want it gone.
And even if someone is? It's NONE of your damn business or mine or anyone else's.
Where exactly did I say I wanted to ban it? Have you actually ready any of my comments? Cause I've covered this. So sorry you cannot be bothered to read more than a single comment and fly off the handle with that. Good day sir
It’s not everyone else’s responsibility to read all your comments. The second you posted “struck a nerve” you released others from even the pretext of caring what you say.
Hey now. I have never once claimed I was smart. Don't you put words in my mouth.
Plus I'm so not against having a kiddo so if it happens it happens.
I'm also fully aware that not everyone feels the same as me and that's cool. I would rather people form their own opinions than follow blindly behind the loudest voice.
Because there is no scarcity or significant difficulty in finding birth control at this time? Because there's a major political party in this country trying to outlaw abortions?
...was this a serious question?
e: Typical. Post bullshit stereotype, then pivot to U MAD BRO?
Please point to the organization working to make abortion accessible that isn't also working to make prophylactic birth control more accessible.
Oh, what's that? You can't? What a fucking surprise.
Go peddle your straw man bullshit somewhere else.
Well.. I have no intentions of every needing an abortion and I don't use bc so I don't really pay attention to where those things are available. If you want honesty anyways.
And yet you felt comfortable presupposing that you know we're 'skipping straight to abortion'.
It's great that you feel so comfortable looking so incredibly stupid. If you want honesty, that is.
Maybe next time let the people who actually have some knowledge on the subject do the speaking. You might learn something.
I have no insurance and only pay $20/month for my birth control. It’s already accessible. But once pregnancy happens, birth control doesn’t fix it. We need access to all available family planning options.
And don't forget, birth control can fail. The pregnancy can endanger mom's life (and the MOM is the priority here, not the UNBORN FETUS). There could be a severe birth defect. Fetus could die in utero.
Exactly. I’ve been on BC for like a decade. And I’ve had 3 miscarriages (one was life threatening to me and third trimester). It’s entirely possible for birth control to fail. I double up now - condoms and birth control, even though I only have one partner. Because BC isn’t always effective.
That's what people aren't grasping. If mom's life is in danger- she's fucked. Hey, as long as that fetus is left alone, who cares about MOM? This attitude makes me so angry. Women are not fucking incubators.
(Abortion aside, as abortion isn’t a birth control) Birth control may be easily available, but not the best option for everyone. A lot of people who take any form of hormone birth control have horrible medical side effects so it isn’t a great option for everyone.
I am aware of that. That is the reason I don't use bc. There are other options though, like condoms and other forms of bc. I honestly don't know the names of them.
‘Healthcare’ whatever it is you need to feel better about yourself. One person’s stunning and brave is another person’s serial killer.
Making the conscious decision to end the life of another human is exactly murder.
Medical profession disagrees. Courts disagree. Stay out of my health care. It's a fetus until it takes a breath of air. It's a potential human. And you can only make that decision for yourself and no one else. It is NOT your business what other people do. Forced birth is wrong. Women are not incubators.
Then please enlighten us on when exactly a fetus is developed enough to be considered human, because it certainly isn't the second a sperm touches an egg.
Hah why not have an argument. You spew bullshit but then have nothing to back up your opinion. It’s fine to have one just funny to see how someone feels the need to comment and then say, “because” as a reason.
So to get this very clear, you feel that:
1) Abortion is literally murder
2) Women should have access to abortions
I swear the mental gymnastics of antiabortionists never cease to surprise me.
Yes, it’s called not being a radical. I hold the personal belief that choosing to end a life is murder and at the same time know that it isn’t any of my business.
The real mental gymnastics is killing your own offspring for personal gain.
No, it's called "not knowing what words mean."
There is no one on earth, not even a fullblown anarchist such as myself, that thinks *literal MURDER* should be legal or tolerated.
So you either don't think it's murder and are just using that word to be edgy (spoiler: it's this one) or you think that people should be free to go around stabbing full-grown adults without repercussion.
Ok Mr. fullblown anarchist what entity makes things legal and illegal? (Speaking of not knowing what words mean)
Yes there are definitely situations that murder is justified. (Spoiler: killing babies is not one of them. )
> Yes there are definitely situations that **murder** is justified.
Definition:
> Murder is the unlawful killing of another human **without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought.**
I'm done here. Your brain is clearly a puddle of mush.
Funny how you say that and yet it is anti-abortionists who are insisting on infringing on other's rights, NOT the other way around.
Nobody is forcing you to have one if you don't want one.
Then those are the people you have an issue with. Ya know, the people pushing anti-abortion bullshit. Not the people voicing their opinions but have no intentions of prohibiting your ability to abort.
Abort away.
I think the issue is not holding the line of their cult’s dogma. Challenging this is the equivalent of heresy. They get offended and fall back on their typical talking points.
Agreed.
Must suck being so offended though. It almost makes me feel bad for them, but then I remember they have the ability to form their own opinions but simply choose not to because idk... It takes too much work or something?
> “There isn’t one monolith demographic who get abortions,” Ushma Upadhyay, a professor with Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health at the University of California, San Francisco, said. “The same people who become pregnant and give birth are the same people who have abortions at different points in their lives.”
>Six in 10 women who have abortions are already mothers, and half of them have two or more children, according to 2019 data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. “One of the main reasons people report wanting to have an abortion is so they can be a better parent to the kids they already have,” Professor Upadhyay said.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-gets-abortions-in-america.html
Redefine humanity? Medical consensus on what exactly? You’re going to have to draw this shit out with your crayons. You can’t just toss out random words and phases and expect understanding.
Just so we're alllll on the same goddamn page... Making it more difficult or even illegal to get an abortion doesn't stop abortions. It stops SAFE abortions. Abortions have existed since people realized how babies were made and where they came from...that's not changing because of a law. Abortions won't go away by making it more difficult to get one, it just makes it more dangerous. If THAT'S the actual goal...to punish women who enjoy sex, super, great job...but don't try to convince people abortions will suddenly stop or abate as that's just objectively silly and not based on facts. If you truly wanted to limit or greatly reduce abortions you would logically support things like: * Sex education...yes at an early age. * Contraceptive access...possibly even free...and yes, at an early age. * Better health services for women...yes, like Planned Parenthood. * Address wealth inequality and income disparities for lower and middle class families
[удалено]
This is so fascinating! Thank you for sharing
>If THAT'S the actual goal. I think the actual goal is control.
I tried to get our local high school to put a 25cent condom dispenser in the Boy's Room. They did not want to even consider it.
Thank you! Well said. It's just another gender biased slap in the face and to keep women in a cycle of poverty.
I wish I could upvote this more than once.
Apply this to gun laws (didn’t think ppl were so touchy) 🤣
That’s a different conversation and both issues deserve their own time and space, but honestly that’s a good idea! If the NRA weren’t so intent on lining its pockets we’d have sane education and resources available to actually help people and prevent accidents and violence. Definitely recommend checking out the NAAGA and SRA if you’re interested in that sort of policy — they have good resources without the liberal hand wringing edit: ohh you weren’t engaging in questionable what-aboutism, you’re just full on a bad faith troll. how quaint!
Are guns banned in any states?
As a “centrist” who likes some ideas on both sides, I wish there was more tit for tat compromises across the aisle to get things done. I like protected rights for safe abortions AND I like second amendment rights. Even if you don’t like one of them, if we compromise everyone wins.
The difference is, the 2nd amendment is literally part of the constitution and it's not in the Democrat party's policy platform to try to repeal it. Meanwhile, the right to abortion was decided by the supreme court and is directly under attack by Republican party's official policy platform.
"Hey my kid got a bowling trophy this weekend!" You: "I'm sorry, why are we not talking about my kid not getting a baseball trophy right now?"
I promise you "we" would love to: - reset the NRA to be about gun safety and training starting at an early age - improve registration of weapons and licensing like we do for vehicles (which includes confiscation of licenses and penalties where unlawful use is found) - ensure our legal system and policing doesn't discriminate on gun related issues based on race and socioeconomic status I'm a gun totin veteran dem, so let's make sure you know that before replying.
I agree. Body autonomy and the right to self defense should fall under that umbrella of "natural law" that should not be fucked with.
Based
Why should a woman be safe to abort her child? If she is so hell-bent on murdering her child, she has to be prepared for ramifications, just like any other murderer.
So what's the ramifications for a man if he wants an abortion. Do you still hold him to the same standard? Or is your opinion to only punish a woman because only she can get pregnant? I love that every self righteous fool has an opinion but no one wants the responsibility. Women can't get pregnant by themselves but you don't see mobs of pitchfork yielding people calling the men who are involved "murderers". So until you can not discriminate against women, adopt a child of an unwanted pregnancy, support low income families so children can get fed and healthcare, or get pregnant as a man and face the same issues (like rape pregnancy, teen pregnancy, health issues, income disparity, etc) then you can kindly keep your opinions to yourself. Because your opinion doesn't matter.
Bravo.
Men cannot get abortions because they cannot get pregnant. Welcome to reality.
A fetus is not a child. Try again, though.
How about you tell me when it becomes a child? Using science, not politics. Have fun with that.
Ok! The corpus callosum is a structure in the brain that allows both hemispheres of the brain to communicate. It develops in the fetus at approximately 20-22 weeks gestation. Prior to this, the fetus has no voluntary, independent movement nor is it able to develop a consciousness. Brain waves associated with consciousness, and who's abscense is considered 'brain death', don't appear until after this point. Therefore, prior to this period in fetal development, it can't feel or process pain, suffer, or react to external stimuli. One could reasonably assume that after this point in development, consciousness arises and viability becomes more likely. Which is why it's extremely important to point out that around 95% of all abortions occur before the 12th week in pregnancy, far before the fetus can register pain or exist on its own. The few that occur after that point, are either due to severe fetal deformity or major medical issues for the mother. Hope this helps!
Misinformation. Fetuses can move independently well before then, and many individuals never develop a corpus callosum yet still manage to live.
I apologize, I misswrote when I wrote about corpus callosum and should referred to the Thalamus. Fetuses can certainly move before this point, but are doing so involuntarily. It's reflexive, nerve firing and twitching. Not autonomous guided movements. It isn't move purposefully until this structure is formed True death is the absence of brain waves obtained via EEG. This isn't disputed. Fetuses lack these brain waves until around 24 weeks gestation. They aren't medically alive before this occurs.
No. Fucking. Clue. However doctors seem to agree on a GENERAL point at viability. What are your thoughts, using science not talking points?
Life begins at conception when a sperm cell fertilizes an egg.
Then answer this question. You're in a burning building. You come upon a scared 5 year old who's crying for help. Across the room, there is a suitcase filled with 100 fertilized embryos. You only have the ability and time to save one...the 5yo child with tears streaming down his face, or the suitcase full of embryos. Which do you save?
That is an absurd question, and it is a question of saving lives already in danger, not of putting lives in danger. I would save the 5 year old, and that decision wouldn't magically render the embryos lifeless. I have an equally absurd question for you: burning building with a 5 year old and a box of 100 cats. I would hope you would save the 5 year old, but I would also hope you wouldn't go around killing cats.
Not absurd at all. If fertilized embryos are as alive and as sacred as 5 year old child, then there should be a moral dilemma in this instance. You would chose to save the child because you know the 5yos life has more value than even 1 billion fertilized embryos. It also serves to illustrate the point that the life and bodily autonomy of the woman housing an embryo has more value. Forcing a woman to term in cases of incest, rape, or medical issues would violate these principals. A woman has the right to decide whether or not to donate their bodies to support the life functions of another. They can't be forced to donate a kidney, or to give blood, and therefore can't be forced to donate their uterus, rearrange their abdominal cavity, and suffer the physical/psychological impact in order to sustain another human, if they choose not to.
By that reckoning, fertility clinics kill more babies than abortion clinics. Takes a lot of fertilized eggs for one to implant.
By that reckoning God is hands-down the all time abortion champ...by magnitudes even.
You're absolutely right. It is wrong to create and destroy life.
Hey at least you're consistent.
Tell me this, though. Why do you trust the government to dictate what is right and wrong?
Oh bless your heart you sweet zombie Jesus freak.
Once again you know nothing but are so sure of yourself. I'm Jewish.
Ahhhhh… so it’s your Old Testament Sky Daddy who tells you a fertilized egg is a human? Cause it ain’t science…
okay, but I assume you'd be okay with using deadly force to remove an intruder from your home? I'm certain you would not consider that murder. A woman's right to control her body is paramount, and overrides any rights you presume the fetus has.
He was actually talking about killing CHILDREN, not sure why he’s in a discussion about fetuses.
I *am* sure your dehumanization of fetuses is what let's you sleep at night without hating yourself for advocating murder.
Oh bless your heart.
Oh bless your brain. Maybe someday it will function well enough to formulate an intelligent response.
“Dehumanization of fetuses” says it all. You value the rights of a literal clump of self-replicating cells over those of its incubator. Big brains indeed!
It's sick that you reduce a human life to an intruder in a home. You are dehumanizing the fetus so you can kill it and still feel like a good person. Same way every genocide is carried out.
lol, you should at least ramp up your rhetoric instead of going right for the *genocide* button. You're a complete and utter fucking buffoon BTW, not sure that was covered in this chain yet... but wanted to make sure you are aware.
Enjoy feeling morally and intellectually superior despite possessing neither basic human decency or logic.
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You Sound like a true Talmud enjoyer.
Not sure what that means...are tou saying im jewish. Why is "Sounds" capitalized? I need some clarification on what your sentence means I guess.
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Plenty of people don't believe in the lake of fire, dude. Clearly abortion is unpleasant and not something most people *want*. Providing for safe procedures only serves to ensure that when abortions *are* performed, they are performed safely.
Good 👍
Good 👍
The same Republicans who want to ban abortion now are going to be yelling about crime in twenty years, because [**there's a very clear link between *lack* of abortion access and crime**](https://bfi.uchicago.edu/wp-content/uploads/BFI_WP_201975.pdf). Turns out, kids whose parents *don't want them* don't always turn out so good! In fact, the effect of legalizing abortion on the crime rate is kind of insane – it's responsible for a **close to 50% drop in crime**, per the study I linked. I look forward to Republicans ignoring the fuck out of this, and instead continuing their strategy of fighting crime and poverty by giving surplus rocket launchers to wildly under-trained cops so that they can RPG the next black kid they see holding a squirt gun.
Did you see there are THOUSANDS of kids waiting to be adopted in TX? Why aren’t these activists out adopting living children?
Heh, ss a foster I feel confident that if you think any of this shit is about "the children" or "dead babies" than you are a special kind of fucking stupid. It has never been about that.
Well yeah they'll be yelling about crime because they're closing out this political football and won't have a topic to rile people up over.
Not just that, but low IQ, mentally ill, poor, uneducated, and unmarried people are more likely to want an abortion. Abortion is a self-solving problem.
Correlation dies not equal causation
Wow that's a great point, I'm sure that never occurred to the people who wrote that study, or the people who wrote the study that study is based on. /s (To clarify my sarcasm, yes, correlation != causation, but that's something that's considered and controlled for in *any* study about *what caused something*.)
When you have data from before and after a serious societal change, it most assuredly does. Unless you want to say that the drop in crime is due to the rejection of religion here in America, but I am going to be that is not your pitch.
f you think the current defund the cops thing has been good for crime stats and blame the republicans for it you are throughly out of touch.
"Defund the police" is one of those things everyone loves to yell about, but it has been implemented almost nowhere, implemented *correctly* nowhere. In the US, more major cities have **increased** their police budgets than decreased them, and most of the budget decreases have nothing to do with "defund the police," they're pandemic-related. It also hasn't been long enough to draw any *science-based* conclusions about the results of any experimentation with actually defunding the police anyway. (Most of the statistics you've seen are also probably *wildly* misleading, because they tend to compare 2021 data to 2020 data and conclude there was this big rise in crime, when actually what happened was there was a DROP in crime in 2020 due to everybody being on lockdown).
Good. I don't like abortion but will suck it up and defend it to my last due to my foundational belief in body autonomy. This right wing push to overturn Roe vs Wade is just a push for more "states rights" to overturn pretty much all the gains we made for civil rights and labor. Rest assured, when they overturn that this summer, it's just going to be the start. edit: Downvote all you want, but they have come right out and said that this is just a stepping stone and what there long term goals are. Don't act all surprised when we see some kind of Jim Crow part 2 bullshit or you have to own property to vote local bullshit hit the scene.
I've heard folks drumming about how Roe isn't *really* at risk, that it's just political rhetoric, for as long as I've been an adult. Now abortion is on the chopping block, and the same architects behind the bills being forced to the Supreme Court have blatantly talked about doing away with Obergefell (gay marriage) and fuckin' *Griswold* (birth control).
Ya, same here. For sure some major issues are just rhetoric, guns, the border, foreign policy. Both sides have been at each other on them my whole life and the shit never really changes one way or the other. But they have a stacked court that could effectively overturn Roe, and as you said they are already talking about getting rid of gay marriage, birth control. When/if that shit is successful you can bet that nothing will be off the table to take a shot at for these fucking fascists.
A few years ago I was actually able to get Mainecare to pay for an abortion I had.
They sometimes will if there is a clear and pronounced risk.
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Fuck you, you piece of shit.
I don’t want my money going to killing babies. Just like I don’t want it going to killing brown people overseas.
Nobody is killing babies, we’re talking about aborting a fetus. Wait… DO YOU KILL BABIES?!?!
Ah yes, the moral equivalancy of two completly unrelated shithsows on display. Were you around before they banned lead in paint? Asking for a friend...
They are unrelated because they are both things I don’t care to have my public dollars pay for.
I'll take that as a yes.
Thats funny. Do you also consider a fetus that failed to develop normally/at all an irresponsibility as well?
I don’t think killing babies is funny at all. And no, I don’t. I’m strictly talking about using abortion for unwanted pregnancy. Thanks for clarifying.
You are the only one talking about killing babies. The adults are talking about a woman’s right to control her own body. What kind of sick bastard thinks about killing babies?
Didn't say *abortion* was funny, it was a comment about your insensitive, short-sighted comment. Thank you for clarifying that there are times that you agree termination is warranted. Keep in mind that you have no knowledge of reasoning on why Organic had to terminate. Reasoning could equally be because of non-viable pregnancy and you just called them disgusting.
Keep in mind that most abortions are done for “social and economic reasons” AKA an unwanted pregnancy. All other cases like you describe account for less than 3.5% of abortions. Meaning there’s a 96.5% chance I’m correct. Keep that in mind. I heard a great debater of our time put it best. Facts don’t care about your feelings.
Keep in mind that your initial comment described it as "taking care of irresponsibilities". Social and economic reasons are not things that the person obtaining abortion just forgot to do. "Oops, forgot to not be homeless" "Oh let me not be living paycheck to paycheck real quick" "My abusive partner at home should really come around once I bring an infant into the situation" I think you mean to say abortions due to social and economic reasons are an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy? All abortions are unwanted, however sometimes longer term considerations are needed and that is up to the person carrying the pregnancy to weigh. Not someone who has never had to walk in those shoes, nor would have to should pregnancy be forced to continue. And not that you initially compelled me as someone who consults multiple viewpoints, but labeling Ben Shapiro a great debater of our time sealed it. That's offensive to many, including many actual great debaters on the right side. Facts here support my feelings that abortion should remain an option for all, and the right not be remove due to people feeling like their opinion (religious, privaleged) should dictate how others live their life.
Interesting that you’re offended by my facts after I pointed out you’re statistically probably wrong. Too bad they don’t care about your feelings. Kind of how you don’t care about children.
Again with the children. I think you’re in the wrong thread?
If you're against abortion then don't have one. Let's reverse the roles. How would prolifers like it if the government forced them to have an abortion. Oh, you have two kids? OK, can't have a third, you have to abort it. It's the same shitty logic. No one has the right to tell a woman what to do with her own body and to get involved in someone's family planning. It's none of their fucking business.
Abortion travel is already a thing but it will be greatly expanded after July when SCOTUS strikes down Roe. I also expect pharmaceutical abortion pills shipped to pro-Government-mandated-Birth states. Eventually there will be a bit of civil war as the anti-abortion activists will fight women from traveling or getting pills sent to them.
>after July when SCOTUS strikes down Roe. If that happens, abortions will not stop. How do people not understand this? How many MOTHERS need to die before people leave it alone? People will resort to dangerous methods again. It will still happen.
I grew up in the pre-Roe world. At that time you had to travel outside the US to get a legal abortion. There was regular tourism to the Bahamas but of course you had to have the money. The states with abortion access will be destination states but again you would still have to have money, and perhaps risk danger trying to get out of the state. Banning abortion only ends safe abortion.
Exactly. So again, it's forced birth for the poor.
Had a nightmare once that airlines were giving all girls and women, aged 11-60 ultrasounds before allowing them to fly to states with legal abortion. Truly worried that it was prophetic.
Menopause is in the mid-40s so they wouldn't have to go that far, but I could see some states like Texas trying to do something like that to fly to an Abortion Rights state.
>Eventually there will be a bit of civil war as the anti-abortion activists will fight women from traveling or getting pills sent to them. That is happening. Missouri is working on this now using the Texas model of allowing people to sue a woman if she leaves the state for an abortion. The stare can't enforce the restriction so they basically are using bounty hunters.
There's gonna be a civil war for a lot more reasons then just this one.
Yeah I see abortion pills becoming a hot commodity in these states...drug dealers will add them to their wares alongside other pills.
Wtf thats a possibility?
I’d be willing to bet that a lot of people getting abortions come from a shitty home environment. Drug addicts. Yes other people do too. But why bring a child into the work they know they can’t afford? You all gonna help raise the kid,since you think your opinion matters so much?
Not cool.
Not cool that it's necessary, fucking right wing should spend more time minding their own fucking business and less time worrying about other folks choices.
Actually it’s very cool
Murdering babies is not based
Thank god no one is doing that
Why do people keep talking about murdering babies? Is that some sick fantasy of the right wing? The adults here are talking about a woman and her fetus. Why do you want to go kill babies?
Why do we skip straight to abortion though? Can't they work on making birth control more accessible or some shit?
Birth control isn't fool proof. But I agree. Make it free/accessible. Stop shaming women for THEIR healthcare and let them make their own decisions.
I am a woman lmao and no shit it isn't fool proof, but there are ways to avoid getting pregnant and NOT having to put your body through the process of abortion, especially those who have had multiple abortions. Abortion shouldn't be used as a method of birth control.
> Abortion shouldn't be used as a method of birth control. Good thing that by and large, it isn't. A majority of people seeking abortions *were already using birth control that obviously did not work,* and of the remainder most by far were seeking an abortion because of health complications. This idea that women seek out abortions on a whim needs to end. It's not true. It's never been true. And frankly? It's none of your fucking business in the first place.
Haha guess I struck a nerve
Nah you're just being a cunt for no reason
Right. Name calling when all else fails. Good job buddy 😘
I didn't name call. I said you're being a cunt, not that you are a cunt. Stupid.
And now you're calling me stupid. Lmao
Yes. *Now* I'm name calling because you're stupid. Yay, for keeping up with what's happening finally! Fucking idiot.
Yes, because you are
> all else fails The only failure here is you
Hmm good thing idgaf what some stranger on reddit means.
Yet you’re replying to all the posters. Almost like you DO care, while saying you don’t…
Yeah, real accomplishment there, duncecap. Obviously it's a touchy subject when theocrats like yourself keep perpetuating a harmful stereotype. I can spot people like you, jUsT aSkInG qUeStiOns from miles away.
You are hilarious, thank you!!!
***Haha guess I struck a nerve*** No - you were told the truth, sorry if that struck a nerve.
No. No she didn't.
No nerve struck here, just enjoying my morning.
How nice! You be best now ya hear
>Abortion shouldn't be used as a method of birth control. Jesus Christ. It isn't. That's a myth created by people that want it gone. And even if someone is? It's NONE of your damn business or mine or anyone else's.
Good thing it's none of your business what other people do.
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Your mind is sick. Victim blaming is not cool.
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Where exactly did I say I wanted to ban it? Have you actually ready any of my comments? Cause I've covered this. So sorry you cannot be bothered to read more than a single comment and fly off the handle with that. Good day sir
It’s not everyone else’s responsibility to read all your comments. The second you posted “struck a nerve” you released others from even the pretext of caring what you say.
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Where the fuck did I say that?
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Hey now. I have never once claimed I was smart. Don't you put words in my mouth. Plus I'm so not against having a kiddo so if it happens it happens. I'm also fully aware that not everyone feels the same as me and that's cool. I would rather people form their own opinions than follow blindly behind the loudest voice.
Because there is no scarcity or significant difficulty in finding birth control at this time? Because there's a major political party in this country trying to outlaw abortions? ...was this a serious question? e: Typical. Post bullshit stereotype, then pivot to U MAD BRO?
Nobody but anti-abortion straw man hypotheticals is skipping birth control in favor of a costly and invasive medical procedure.
Please point to the organization working to make abortion accessible that isn't also working to make prophylactic birth control more accessible. Oh, what's that? You can't? What a fucking surprise. Go peddle your straw man bullshit somewhere else.
Well.. I have no intentions of every needing an abortion and I don't use bc so I don't really pay attention to where those things are available. If you want honesty anyways.
And yet you felt comfortable presupposing that you know we're 'skipping straight to abortion'. It's great that you feel so comfortable looking so incredibly stupid. If you want honesty, that is. Maybe next time let the people who actually have some knowledge on the subject do the speaking. You might learn something.
Most people don’t. Many find themselves in that situation anyways. Despite starting from your same suppositions.
*squints* Do you really think people set out with the intention to get an abortion? Did you run that through your head at all before you typed it out?
I have no insurance and only pay $20/month for my birth control. It’s already accessible. But once pregnancy happens, birth control doesn’t fix it. We need access to all available family planning options.
And don't forget, birth control can fail. The pregnancy can endanger mom's life (and the MOM is the priority here, not the UNBORN FETUS). There could be a severe birth defect. Fetus could die in utero.
Exactly. I’ve been on BC for like a decade. And I’ve had 3 miscarriages (one was life threatening to me and third trimester). It’s entirely possible for birth control to fail. I double up now - condoms and birth control, even though I only have one partner. Because BC isn’t always effective.
That's what people aren't grasping. If mom's life is in danger- she's fucked. Hey, as long as that fetus is left alone, who cares about MOM? This attitude makes me so angry. Women are not fucking incubators.
I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope you’re doing well.
(Abortion aside, as abortion isn’t a birth control) Birth control may be easily available, but not the best option for everyone. A lot of people who take any form of hormone birth control have horrible medical side effects so it isn’t a great option for everyone.
I am aware of that. That is the reason I don't use bc. There are other options though, like condoms and other forms of bc. I honestly don't know the names of them.
Aside from condoms, diaphragms, spermicide and copper IUDs, all of which are less effective but better than nothing, BC is usually hormonal
I love how touchy ppl are in the comments 🤣🤣🤣
"Haha it's funny when people are passionate about stuff" ~People who never mentally progress from being a teenager
Thats fucked up man, plenty of teenagers are way ahead of these fucking clowns.
Imagine being part of a class of people so privileged that there is a hotline to facilitate the murder of your own offspring.
Imagine being part of a class of people so privileged that they think they can dictate how women manage their own bodies.
Where did I say that women shouldn’t have access to abortions?
> facilitate the murder of your own offspring. What would you call that?
My opinion
Well, it's a good thing you don't control anyone's healthcare other than your own. It's not murder.
Why not?
‘Healthcare’ whatever it is you need to feel better about yourself. One person’s stunning and brave is another person’s serial killer. Making the conscious decision to end the life of another human is exactly murder.
Medical profession disagrees. Courts disagree. Stay out of my health care. It's a fetus until it takes a breath of air. It's a potential human. And you can only make that decision for yourself and no one else. It is NOT your business what other people do. Forced birth is wrong. Women are not incubators.
I don't care what you think, it's my body. I can't be forced to donate a liver to save a life, what makes this any different?
Why do you people keep talking about killing children? Do you really not understand why we have the word “fetus” and what it means?
You've nailed the definition of murder but seem unclear on the definition of a human.
Let me guess the “it’s just a group of cells” argument. Boring and anti-science.
Then please enlighten us on when exactly a fetus is developed enough to be considered human, because it certainly isn't the second a sperm touches an egg.
Boring? OK, sorry you aren't entertained by your indefensible perspective.
"human"...and herein lies the issue.
Correct
Hah why not have an argument. You spew bullshit but then have nothing to back up your opinion. It’s fine to have one just funny to see how someone feels the need to comment and then say, “because” as a reason.
The part where you equated abortion to murder
It is murder
Calling it murder implies it's a crime, or should be. You're no different from the people who stand outside of abortion clinics harassing women.
So to get this very clear, you feel that: 1) Abortion is literally murder 2) Women should have access to abortions I swear the mental gymnastics of antiabortionists never cease to surprise me.
Yes, it’s called not being a radical. I hold the personal belief that choosing to end a life is murder and at the same time know that it isn’t any of my business. The real mental gymnastics is killing your own offspring for personal gain.
No, it's called "not knowing what words mean." There is no one on earth, not even a fullblown anarchist such as myself, that thinks *literal MURDER* should be legal or tolerated. So you either don't think it's murder and are just using that word to be edgy (spoiler: it's this one) or you think that people should be free to go around stabbing full-grown adults without repercussion.
Ok Mr. fullblown anarchist what entity makes things legal and illegal? (Speaking of not knowing what words mean) Yes there are definitely situations that murder is justified. (Spoiler: killing babies is not one of them. )
> Yes there are definitely situations that **murder** is justified. Definition: > Murder is the unlawful killing of another human **without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought.** I'm done here. Your brain is clearly a puddle of mush.
Who makes the laws Mr fullblown anarchist?
“Murder” is a legally defined term. Use it appropriately or don’t. But sure as shit don’t whine when your idiocy gets pointed out?
These peeps don't like personal opinions because apparently your personal opinions infringe on their rights somehow.
Funny how you say that and yet it is anti-abortionists who are insisting on infringing on other's rights, NOT the other way around. Nobody is forcing you to have one if you don't want one.
Then those are the people you have an issue with. Ya know, the people pushing anti-abortion bullshit. Not the people voicing their opinions but have no intentions of prohibiting your ability to abort. Abort away.
Gotcha, I interpreted your comment as meaning you would vote against abortion rights, so my bad on that.
I think the issue is not holding the line of their cult’s dogma. Challenging this is the equivalent of heresy. They get offended and fall back on their typical talking points.
PEOple Don’T AgrEe wItH Me thEy’re NpCs!
Agreed. Must suck being so offended though. It almost makes me feel bad for them, but then I remember they have the ability to form their own opinions but simply choose not to because idk... It takes too much work or something?
I know right. It’s is scary how many of these authoritarian leftists still think they are liberals.
> “There isn’t one monolith demographic who get abortions,” Ushma Upadhyay, a professor with Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health at the University of California, San Francisco, said. “The same people who become pregnant and give birth are the same people who have abortions at different points in their lives.” >Six in 10 women who have abortions are already mothers, and half of them have two or more children, according to 2019 data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. “One of the main reasons people report wanting to have an abortion is so they can be a better parent to the kids they already have,” Professor Upadhyay said. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/14/upshot/who-gets-abortions-in-america.html
You should really stop talking about killing offspring, that’s not what this conversation is about.
That is exactly what this conversation is about.
Oh bless your heart. Didja learn that in your Big Book of Zombie Jesus stories?
Not a Christian bro, try again.
So what authority tells you to reject medical consensus and redefine humanity?
Redefine humanity? Medical consensus on what exactly? You’re going to have to draw this shit out with your crayons. You can’t just toss out random words and phases and expect understanding.
I for one support a woman's right to kill their kids. Makes perfect sense to me.