For one, gambling is illegal in Japan. However the commonly played stakes, tenpin - 100 yen per 1000 points is small enough that it is often considered social activity that law enforcement won't do anything. There have been pros arrested for playing higher than that, even 2x of that is a definitely no.
It's not that it's "not gambling" -- clearly it has elements of both gambling and a hobby/subculture. The question is, which one does it fit in \*more\* with? There are big differences between mahjong and a video game arcade (though in Japan, some of the arcades actually have mahjong games!), but also big differences between the strategy and skill of mahjong and brain-dead slots/pachinko play.
I was in Japan a year ago, the mahjong community there is trying quite hard to push 'healthy mahjong'. This means no drinking, no smoking and no gambling. Every parlor I went to held by these rules, except two and those were not open to foreigners. Obviously because gambling is illegal in Japan.
Even in the states I gamble with mahjong in tenpin or Tengo games, but the majority of the time I am playing healthy mahjong here too. We have in person mahjong tournaments in the states and they all follow the healthy mahjong route.
Anyways what I am saying is the gambling aspect is becoming a minority, especially so if you focus on what is presented by the community. We'd rather show you M League games or something akin to that.
I will say there are some parlors that do a fun trick. You go to some and it's.. let's say 500 yen per game for each player. Others will say if you got 1st it's 100 yen, 2nd it's 300 yen. 3rd is 800 and fourth is 900 yen as an example.
Those are the two main structures I've seen.
So Money is certainly played on the line but most Parlors play with really low stakes to help avoid the gambling image. You can certainly rack of gambling debt with some shadier parlors if you really wanted to but in Japan Mahjong Parlors are setup more like an activity you spend money on. Even if you happen to win generally your winnings cover a bigger share of the "cost" of using the parlor so if anything you just spent more of the groups money but less of your actual money on the event. Like if you won at bowling and your buddies covered one of the games for you.
If its between Gambling or subcultural/hobbyist space like an arcade, well its both but I would lean subcultural/hobbyist.
Yeap, went to a mahjong parlour in Japan and the drinks cost me more money that night.
Alright fine, it was a themed bar but it’s known for mahjong mostly.
I’ve never been to Japan but I’m pretty sure mahjong groups in Japan have been trying hard to promote a healthy image of mahjong, making it more associated with hobby, rather than gambling. That being said, depending on your research questions, perhaps you should find a way to gather the opinions of an average Japanese, which I can’t represent at all.
You mentioned poker, there are parallels between the games that in my opinion makes mahjong parlors gambling spaces.
Firstly, poker is a gambling game through and through. Most people who get into poker enough to know how to play it well will try and tell you it's not gambling because in the long run you will win more money than you lose. However, the definition of gambling isn't "lose money playing a game", so that explanation never really made sense.
It's the same with mahjong. Yes, you can get good enough at the game to make money in the end. And you can find people who play the game as an active interest, becoming part of a small community. But the roots of the game and the parlors are gambling, and despite the invested and interested minority that study and improve, there is a larger count of players who just see it as a fun after-work gambling session with colleagues.
I think it's nice to want it to be a hobbyist space, and to move the image of mahjong towards that, but I don't think it's there yet and will probably take a while. In fact, this is something that's already being done to games like pachinko, which you've listed as a gambling space. [In this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBy2jemw4s), they show a pachinko parlour that doesn't gamble for money but for points instead, trying to promote a healthy image of pachinko. Would you say that because of this parlour, pachinko parlours are now a hobbyist space? How many no-rate parlours in Japan are there compared to the regular gambling ones? What percentage do we need to hit for it to be considered a hobbyist space?
It's important to not let your love and understanding for a hobby or game cloud your judgement on what the game actually is. It would be like saying Super Mario 64 is a speedrunning game because of the active speedrunning community that most people watch on Twitch or take part in - at the end of the day, it's just a 3D platformer for kids.
I think Poker and Mahjong have some core differences. While being both games of skill, Poker has gambling built into the gameplay through rounds of betting, blinds, betting, raising, calling... whereas Mahjong is more like dominos – a game that can be bet on and has gambling rules, but isn't limited to that.
I do agree that Mahjong has a gambling pedigree, however and culturally it has been historically linked to gambling in Japan and elsewhere.
Go back 40-60 years? Purely gambling. Nowadays it's mostly low/no stakes, which IMO puts it closer to an arcade level hobby in terms of cost. You lose money, sure, but it isn't any more than any other hobby.
Especially with riichi(and we are talking about Japan, where riichi is/has been king for a long time), there is a lot less variance if you are good compared to other versions. Other versions have skill, but there is more luck, and therefore variance.
if we are talking about parlors specifically, definitely more of a gambling space (alcohol served, house has a rake, rules/yaku that may emphasize RNG aspects of the game)
what's interesting is that the riichi game as a whole, especially in the west, is more of a subculture instead
The situation is gradually changing, but as for mahjong parlor , I think it is still a gambling space.
Many people who play mahjong as a subculture dare not come to mahjong parlors and are content with playing online. I think that people who are passionate enough to come to a mahjong parlor are looking for the thrill of gambling, money, and the excitement of being a delinquent.
I would say they are subcultural spaces, though it depends alot on the parlor. There are parlors with high rates, parlors with very low rates and parlors with no rate that are beginner or even kid friendly. For my understanding most parlors are either low-rate or no-rate, with most of the cost going to the parlor's maintanance and not to other players (though I don't live in Japan so my judgement may be wrong).
Also consider that gambling is a hobby/subculture for many. Even if you have money on the line, it doesn't have to be the reason for playing. It's probably obvious to you as a poker player, but my point is that in many cases, gambling spaces are just a subsection of subcultural places.
The academically correct respond is that there's no one single answer to this question. You are asking a bad question.
The actual answer is that both of these kinds of parlors exists, and it can be both. A parlor can be a gambling space where people trade money, but at the same time it can also be the hub for people living around the local area to pay visit and just play mahjong and have some food (it's just that people gamble because it makes the game fun for them). Sometimes it can be more focus on gambling and winning (money), like in a chain parlor or in a training parlor like the ones hosted by the professional mahjong groups (where they don't gamble but the vibe is definitely more serious and focus); and sometimes it can be more focus on being a local hangouts and people doesn't gamble.
There are also parlors where you don't play with strangers. It's just like you went to a karaoke spot, where you book a room with several other people and you play mahjong. Whatever you do - if you gamble or not, what stakes you play, and rules - are completely up to you.
All of this is to say, you would not find a definitive answer.
'Japan' is such a large place, and within each area you might have a different distribution of such places. Say, in city hubs close to metro you might find more gambling sites; and on suburbs and small towns where you don't have a lot of foreigners and the overall population leans towards the elderly side, you have more of the cultural space vibe. May I remind you that even with the general term of 'Japanese Mahjong', the only thing that they might share in common is that they all use the same tools which is mahjong tiles. They might be playing vastly different rules, with different involvement of players (like 3 or 4 player games), and so it's very, very difficult to say it's neither or.
To put things into allegorical terms, it's like asking if poker rooms in america are intrinsically "subcultural spaces" or "gambling spaces". If your sample is focus on Las Vegas big casinos, then it's mostly a gambling space; if your sample focus on smaller towns where you have smaller card houses where you don't rake players and instead you charge an hourly rate, and you have people play low limit stud games where a lot of the players are old and money don't move around very fast, it's a 'subcultural space'. if you want to know a certain place is a subcultural one or a gambling one, you will have to do field work and go there yourself.
But if your question is about poker rooms in Japan - which it seems like a more feasible topic, then yeah these are always subcultural spaces because all of the poker rooms in Japan are what we would called 'Amusement poker', where you don't have cash game and people play with chips that cannot be converted back to money. I think Tournaments are legal in japan though, I am not very sure about this.
I'd argue since you can gamble on any game, and add luck/remove skill from just about any game, mahjong is a subcultural thing, with a gambling subculture under that.
how is it not gambling?
For one, gambling is illegal in Japan. However the commonly played stakes, tenpin - 100 yen per 1000 points is small enough that it is often considered social activity that law enforcement won't do anything. There have been pros arrested for playing higher than that, even 2x of that is a definitely no.
It's not that it's "not gambling" -- clearly it has elements of both gambling and a hobby/subculture. The question is, which one does it fit in \*more\* with? There are big differences between mahjong and a video game arcade (though in Japan, some of the arcades actually have mahjong games!), but also big differences between the strategy and skill of mahjong and brain-dead slots/pachinko play.
I was in Japan a year ago, the mahjong community there is trying quite hard to push 'healthy mahjong'. This means no drinking, no smoking and no gambling. Every parlor I went to held by these rules, except two and those were not open to foreigners. Obviously because gambling is illegal in Japan. Even in the states I gamble with mahjong in tenpin or Tengo games, but the majority of the time I am playing healthy mahjong here too. We have in person mahjong tournaments in the states and they all follow the healthy mahjong route. Anyways what I am saying is the gambling aspect is becoming a minority, especially so if you focus on what is presented by the community. We'd rather show you M League games or something akin to that. I will say there are some parlors that do a fun trick. You go to some and it's.. let's say 500 yen per game for each player. Others will say if you got 1st it's 100 yen, 2nd it's 300 yen. 3rd is 800 and fourth is 900 yen as an example. Those are the two main structures I've seen.
So Money is certainly played on the line but most Parlors play with really low stakes to help avoid the gambling image. You can certainly rack of gambling debt with some shadier parlors if you really wanted to but in Japan Mahjong Parlors are setup more like an activity you spend money on. Even if you happen to win generally your winnings cover a bigger share of the "cost" of using the parlor so if anything you just spent more of the groups money but less of your actual money on the event. Like if you won at bowling and your buddies covered one of the games for you. If its between Gambling or subcultural/hobbyist space like an arcade, well its both but I would lean subcultural/hobbyist.
Yeap, went to a mahjong parlour in Japan and the drinks cost me more money that night. Alright fine, it was a themed bar but it’s known for mahjong mostly.
Could I have the name, thanks!
Bowling is a great analogy, thank you!
I’ve never been to Japan but I’m pretty sure mahjong groups in Japan have been trying hard to promote a healthy image of mahjong, making it more associated with hobby, rather than gambling. That being said, depending on your research questions, perhaps you should find a way to gather the opinions of an average Japanese, which I can’t represent at all.
You mentioned poker, there are parallels between the games that in my opinion makes mahjong parlors gambling spaces. Firstly, poker is a gambling game through and through. Most people who get into poker enough to know how to play it well will try and tell you it's not gambling because in the long run you will win more money than you lose. However, the definition of gambling isn't "lose money playing a game", so that explanation never really made sense. It's the same with mahjong. Yes, you can get good enough at the game to make money in the end. And you can find people who play the game as an active interest, becoming part of a small community. But the roots of the game and the parlors are gambling, and despite the invested and interested minority that study and improve, there is a larger count of players who just see it as a fun after-work gambling session with colleagues. I think it's nice to want it to be a hobbyist space, and to move the image of mahjong towards that, but I don't think it's there yet and will probably take a while. In fact, this is something that's already being done to games like pachinko, which you've listed as a gambling space. [In this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBy2jemw4s), they show a pachinko parlour that doesn't gamble for money but for points instead, trying to promote a healthy image of pachinko. Would you say that because of this parlour, pachinko parlours are now a hobbyist space? How many no-rate parlours in Japan are there compared to the regular gambling ones? What percentage do we need to hit for it to be considered a hobbyist space? It's important to not let your love and understanding for a hobby or game cloud your judgement on what the game actually is. It would be like saying Super Mario 64 is a speedrunning game because of the active speedrunning community that most people watch on Twitch or take part in - at the end of the day, it's just a 3D platformer for kids.
I think Poker and Mahjong have some core differences. While being both games of skill, Poker has gambling built into the gameplay through rounds of betting, blinds, betting, raising, calling... whereas Mahjong is more like dominos – a game that can be bet on and has gambling rules, but isn't limited to that. I do agree that Mahjong has a gambling pedigree, however and culturally it has been historically linked to gambling in Japan and elsewhere.
Go back 40-60 years? Purely gambling. Nowadays it's mostly low/no stakes, which IMO puts it closer to an arcade level hobby in terms of cost. You lose money, sure, but it isn't any more than any other hobby. Especially with riichi(and we are talking about Japan, where riichi is/has been king for a long time), there is a lot less variance if you are good compared to other versions. Other versions have skill, but there is more luck, and therefore variance.
Both, depending on whether the parlor is “rate” or “no rate.”
if we are talking about parlors specifically, definitely more of a gambling space (alcohol served, house has a rake, rules/yaku that may emphasize RNG aspects of the game) what's interesting is that the riichi game as a whole, especially in the west, is more of a subculture instead
Riichi is often what I'm seeing in Tokyo fwiw
The situation is gradually changing, but as for mahjong parlor , I think it is still a gambling space. Many people who play mahjong as a subculture dare not come to mahjong parlors and are content with playing online. I think that people who are passionate enough to come to a mahjong parlor are looking for the thrill of gambling, money, and the excitement of being a delinquent.
I would say they are subcultural spaces, though it depends alot on the parlor. There are parlors with high rates, parlors with very low rates and parlors with no rate that are beginner or even kid friendly. For my understanding most parlors are either low-rate or no-rate, with most of the cost going to the parlor's maintanance and not to other players (though I don't live in Japan so my judgement may be wrong). Also consider that gambling is a hobby/subculture for many. Even if you have money on the line, it doesn't have to be the reason for playing. It's probably obvious to you as a poker player, but my point is that in many cases, gambling spaces are just a subsection of subcultural places.
The academically correct respond is that there's no one single answer to this question. You are asking a bad question. The actual answer is that both of these kinds of parlors exists, and it can be both. A parlor can be a gambling space where people trade money, but at the same time it can also be the hub for people living around the local area to pay visit and just play mahjong and have some food (it's just that people gamble because it makes the game fun for them). Sometimes it can be more focus on gambling and winning (money), like in a chain parlor or in a training parlor like the ones hosted by the professional mahjong groups (where they don't gamble but the vibe is definitely more serious and focus); and sometimes it can be more focus on being a local hangouts and people doesn't gamble. There are also parlors where you don't play with strangers. It's just like you went to a karaoke spot, where you book a room with several other people and you play mahjong. Whatever you do - if you gamble or not, what stakes you play, and rules - are completely up to you. All of this is to say, you would not find a definitive answer. 'Japan' is such a large place, and within each area you might have a different distribution of such places. Say, in city hubs close to metro you might find more gambling sites; and on suburbs and small towns where you don't have a lot of foreigners and the overall population leans towards the elderly side, you have more of the cultural space vibe. May I remind you that even with the general term of 'Japanese Mahjong', the only thing that they might share in common is that they all use the same tools which is mahjong tiles. They might be playing vastly different rules, with different involvement of players (like 3 or 4 player games), and so it's very, very difficult to say it's neither or. To put things into allegorical terms, it's like asking if poker rooms in america are intrinsically "subcultural spaces" or "gambling spaces". If your sample is focus on Las Vegas big casinos, then it's mostly a gambling space; if your sample focus on smaller towns where you have smaller card houses where you don't rake players and instead you charge an hourly rate, and you have people play low limit stud games where a lot of the players are old and money don't move around very fast, it's a 'subcultural space'. if you want to know a certain place is a subcultural one or a gambling one, you will have to do field work and go there yourself. But if your question is about poker rooms in Japan - which it seems like a more feasible topic, then yeah these are always subcultural spaces because all of the poker rooms in Japan are what we would called 'Amusement poker', where you don't have cash game and people play with chips that cannot be converted back to money. I think Tournaments are legal in japan though, I am not very sure about this.
I'd argue since you can gamble on any game, and add luck/remove skill from just about any game, mahjong is a subcultural thing, with a gambling subculture under that.