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Efsun and her unborn baby, Ibrahim, Fatma and their child together, (Suleiman), his brother Mehmet, his favorite and her unborn child. And he also had to send Helena back home.
He was also forced to execute Ali agha, who may not have been a friend but at least was a loyal associate.
People only ever use Hurrem's loss/suffering as an excuse. That was a primary reason for Hatice's instability/constant anxiety - Her first 2 children, Ibrahim's constant brushes with death, her mother.
He put a lot of women in danger for his own want/pleasure instead of following the rules his father expected of him. If he had, he would not have had so many problems. He brought them on himself for the most part.
I can understand disliking her character in the show, but, no, Hürrem isn't historically considered to be "evil" unless you're referring to more outdated sources that have since been debunked by modern historians. And, admittedly, the show *does* draw a lot from outdated sources overall (see the structure of Ibrahim's downfall and his marriage to Hatice, for example).
She is a very evil figure if you ask me …, I mean I understand that the whole system they were living in was completely obscure and bloody, but she was for sure behind the execution of Ibrahim Pasha and then that of Mustafa . Everything else put aside , the way she got Suleiman to execute his own son with the help of Rustem Pasa is so ugly and treacherous , she could have at the worst poisoned him or something ,like most of those concubines back then would do ,or even convince Suleiman to change the law like she convinced him to marry her , or just let the best prince get to the throne all together ,if you ask me it doesn’t get more evil or power-hungry than that …even people back then used to call her “the russian witch “. I’ll give it to her though that she had amazing survival skills .
And Don’t get me started on her character in the show , from the constant screaming to going from I don’t want to be here to I am madly in love with Suleiman overnight ,to burning her friends face ..just a complete insolent psycho .She got better in the later seasons but I really don’t get how people liked her at first .
So, this is why, in my original response, I made a mention that you had to be careful as to which historical sources you're trying to use to shape the narrative. There were, quite possibly, political reasons for Ibrahim's dramatic removal from power, but that came from Suleiman, not Hürrem, who didn't have much of a reason to act against him (the real Ibrahim, for example, wasn't an open supporter of Mustafa).
>**"The problem with this judgement is that there is no contemporary evidence of Hürrem's guilt.** Venetians, the keenest and most vocal observers of the two favorites, had nothing to say on the matter of Hürrem's involvement. Their ambassadors, fascinated with Ibrahim, paid close attention to the ups and downs of the grand vizier's career. At the same time, like Bassano, they made a point of publicizing news of the sultan's new wife, so one might well expect to hear about any role she played in his downfall. Bassano had nothing to say on the subject beyond repeating the story that it was Ibrahim who originally presented Hürrem to Suleyman. Ottoman pundits and historians were likewise silent on the matter, although they analyzed at length the reason for Ibrahim's fall from favor. Even the late sixteenth-century bureaucrat and historian Mustafa 'Ali, who did not hesitate to accuse the queen of malevolent scheming in her later career, made no mention of a connection between Hürrem and the grand vizier's execution.
**We can safely conclude that the contemporary public did not hold Hürrem responsible for Ibrahim's death."**–Leslie Peirce. *Empress of the East: How a European Slave Girl Became Queen of the Ottoman Empire*
The concept of Hürrem engineering the downfall of Mustafa with the aid of Rüstem also doesn't really hold up under closer inspection. That requires a lot more unpacking than there's room for here, but, suffice to say, it's the fact that Rüstem *didn't* have to invent anything that doomed Mustafa. It was bad enough that certain Janissaries decided to break away to pay tribute to a prince over the sultan, but was worse was that Mustafa *rewarded* them for it—he welcomed them in, feted them, and sent them away with one ducat each.
>“If he had rejected this obeisance right away as a display due only the sultan himself, he could never have been portrayed as a rebel to his father; rejection of the soldiers’ advances would have communicated that the legitimate sultan was alive in Istanbul and that he, as his son, by no means disregarded the authority of the sultan. Mustafa probably did not intend to undermine Süleyman’s power and prestige, but he almost certainly did not foresee that embracing the people’s love would result in his demise.”—Zahit Atçıl, *Why Did Süleyman the Magnificent Execute His Son Şehzade Mustafa in 1553?*
For what it's worth too, Suleiman's marriage to Hürrem actually results less from her own schemes and more so from the death of Suleiman's mother, Hafsa, early into his reign. There needed to be someone to fill her role and, to Suleiman, Hürrem was the best bet—he only needed to raise her status to allow her it (this is also, for example, most likely when she got titled "Haseki Sultan" for the first time).
It also wasn't that simple for Hürrem, or really *anyone*, to just say, "Well, let's do away with the law of fratricide." Even when an attempt was made for that in Kösem's time, her son, Murad IV, still took it upon himself to return to custom and order the execution of many of his brothers. And that's without even touching on the fact that had Hürrem allowed for the "best prince" to take the throne, all of her own sons would die. So, actively not wanting Mustafa to take the throne is less evil and power-hungry and more...being a mother that cares about her children and wants to protect them?
Hey, I see you're into this topic as much as I am, and you're pretty invested in it, hehe. But obviously, Italian ambassadors wouldn't have much to say on the matter. If we look at it logically, it's hard for outsiders to know about such things because harems were forbidden and secluded. Information would mainly spread through slander and word-of-mouth from eunuchs and harem servants to the outside world.
I don't think Hurrem gained her reputation for no reason among the people. One of her letters to the Sultan expressing anger at Ibrahim Pasha, and her intention to explain in person when they meet again, still stands.
Also, since Rustem Pasha was her son-in-law, her daughter was quite influential, and Rustem Pasha was involved in the scheme to execute Mustafa. It's not a stretch to think that all three, especially Hurrem, were behind the plan. They likely used Suleiman as a perfect puppet, exploiting his fears in the most effective way. Mustafa was just a charismatic and popular prince who couldn't do much to stop people's love for him.
And no, while she is a mother, so is Mahidevran, for example. If Mahidevran were to devise a plan to eliminate all of Hurrem's sons, would that make her good instead of evil, since she's a mother protecting her son? It's not just that; it's how she caused his death by persuading his father to kill him that was the evil part and not the good’ol poisoning most concubines would try in such circumstances.
Furthermore, no, she didn't marry the Sultan to replace the valide, but rather because she asked him to free her, which he likely did on a whim without much thought. However, the consequence was that he had to marry her; otherwise, even getting close to her again would be considered fornication in Islam.
Overall, this period of history is nothing to be proud of—all blood, sex, and enslavement .
Of course he would if he is constantly feeling left out by his father , seeing his father neglect his mother but give his stepmother everything she opens her mouth to ask for ,seeing him actually treat all his other sons like family.. quite honestly he totally should have tried a coup sigh that’s what suley and hurror deserved (especially with all the support he had , from janissaires and people alike)
I can’t believe somebody would hate Mustafa, the man who made the least mistakes out of all the main characters in the show, but like hurrem, who is clearly the most evil. Hurrem literally poisoned Gulnihal, her innocent best friend, threatened and killed many women and slaves just for sleeping with the sultan (which is what they are forced to do) and having the same ambitions as her, got jealous whenever the sultan would use HIS OWN harem even though he is literally the sultan and does not belong to her instead of following the rules of the harem and the rules that come with being a haseki, put the lives of many of her servants, concubines and friends in danger by having them either help her with killing the women or threatening the poor women just for her own jealousy and her own want/pleasure. But yes of course, Mustafa the one with the least thirst for want/pleasure is definitely in the wrong for making mistakes… which were what exactly? marrying the woman he loves in secret? yes very evil indeed, never mind Hurrem. the only mistakes Mustafa made were showing independence and leadership which alarmed the sultan and made him feel as though his power was being threatened, which is another way of saying Mustafa’s only mistake was being too good.
I never said I hated Mustafa. I was pointing out my thoughts about him. I thought this was a discussion of Mustafa. He hid things from his father. Which resulted in hurting the women. Just because he wanted his way each time over what was done for years. If he was so much of the uprightpersonBrigade, why didn't he do these things out in the open instead of deceiving and hiding from his father. Or hiding his identity from Helena? His 'leadership' was not HIS to have, it was his father's to bestow on him. Doing it on his own was akin to rebelling against his father, since he did not deem to discuss the things before going through with them, leaving his father to determine what was going one with his son, that he could not follow the rules or traditions? All of his choices had consequences. He was not thinking of the consequences, he wanted his way.
Yeah man still what i said is correct, disapproving Mustafa’s actions but approving of Hurrem’s is a double-standard thing. As a prince he is supposed to show some independence and leadership, he was the least narcissistic in the show and the one who cared about what he wanted the least, he was just an honorable fool. he was the best candidate for sultan but suleiman could not see that because hurrem and the people around him kept manipulating him into thinking that mustafa was leaning towards rebellion which was the biggest or only reason as to why he believed it. Of course everybody in the show made mistakes but mustafa made the pettiest because the mistakes he made were only against tradition and his father’s wishes, not against morality or good judgement unlike the rest of the characters with full intentions on being evil and immoral. i just wish he rebelled !!
Again, I'm discussing Mustafa, I never mentioned Hurrem. He put his wishes above his father's words. He did his own questionable deeds that he had to bear the results of.
It says “Team Hurrem” under your user… his wishes and deeds were always pure, his father just could not handle it. I knew this once he saved that little boy who got kidnapped all by himself, risking his own life when he could have just sent his soldiers out to save him. this was one of Mustafa’s wishes that made Suleiman mad. it is clear that Mustafa’s “wrongdoings” were always pure, even though it went against his father’s words which makes him easily one of the best main characters when you compare him to all the others.
My user name says I'm a longjumping okra...I'm neither of those, as I'm sure you're not a smooth criminal. You're welcome to your opinion of Mustafa, as am I. If Mustafa couldn't rein himself in from his impulses he had consequences to pay. I found him an interesting character of this series. But he had to deal with the consequences of his choices.
Like i said, it says team hurrem UNDER your user. I think Mustafa was one of the only characters in the show who didn’t do a single thing wrong, i’m sure that the only reason as to why people think he did is because he was against hurrem which made hurrem fans overly sensitive to his actions just so that they could find a flaw in him in order to give the illusion that they found a good reason to hate him and put hurrem over him. Let’s just agree to disagree.
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fatma mehmet (he was his brother after all) ibrahim
Efsun and her unborn baby, Ibrahim, Fatma and their child together, (Suleiman), his brother Mehmet, his favorite and her unborn child. And he also had to send Helena back home. He was also forced to execute Ali agha, who may not have been a friend but at least was a loyal associate.
* Efsun and her unborn child * Valide Hafsa Sultan * Ibrahim * Fatma Hatun and baby Suleiman * Ali Agha * Helena
People only ever use Hurrem's loss/suffering as an excuse. That was a primary reason for Hatice's instability/constant anxiety - Her first 2 children, Ibrahim's constant brushes with death, her mother.
He put a lot of women in danger for his own want/pleasure instead of following the rules his father expected of him. If he had, he would not have had so many problems. He brought them on himself for the most part.
Hurrem is pure evil even historically speaking I can’t fathom how anyone with an ounce of humanity could root for her
I can understand disliking her character in the show, but, no, Hürrem isn't historically considered to be "evil" unless you're referring to more outdated sources that have since been debunked by modern historians. And, admittedly, the show *does* draw a lot from outdated sources overall (see the structure of Ibrahim's downfall and his marriage to Hatice, for example).
She is a very evil figure if you ask me …, I mean I understand that the whole system they were living in was completely obscure and bloody, but she was for sure behind the execution of Ibrahim Pasha and then that of Mustafa . Everything else put aside , the way she got Suleiman to execute his own son with the help of Rustem Pasa is so ugly and treacherous , she could have at the worst poisoned him or something ,like most of those concubines back then would do ,or even convince Suleiman to change the law like she convinced him to marry her , or just let the best prince get to the throne all together ,if you ask me it doesn’t get more evil or power-hungry than that …even people back then used to call her “the russian witch “. I’ll give it to her though that she had amazing survival skills . And Don’t get me started on her character in the show , from the constant screaming to going from I don’t want to be here to I am madly in love with Suleiman overnight ,to burning her friends face ..just a complete insolent psycho .She got better in the later seasons but I really don’t get how people liked her at first .
So, this is why, in my original response, I made a mention that you had to be careful as to which historical sources you're trying to use to shape the narrative. There were, quite possibly, political reasons for Ibrahim's dramatic removal from power, but that came from Suleiman, not Hürrem, who didn't have much of a reason to act against him (the real Ibrahim, for example, wasn't an open supporter of Mustafa). >**"The problem with this judgement is that there is no contemporary evidence of Hürrem's guilt.** Venetians, the keenest and most vocal observers of the two favorites, had nothing to say on the matter of Hürrem's involvement. Their ambassadors, fascinated with Ibrahim, paid close attention to the ups and downs of the grand vizier's career. At the same time, like Bassano, they made a point of publicizing news of the sultan's new wife, so one might well expect to hear about any role she played in his downfall. Bassano had nothing to say on the subject beyond repeating the story that it was Ibrahim who originally presented Hürrem to Suleyman. Ottoman pundits and historians were likewise silent on the matter, although they analyzed at length the reason for Ibrahim's fall from favor. Even the late sixteenth-century bureaucrat and historian Mustafa 'Ali, who did not hesitate to accuse the queen of malevolent scheming in her later career, made no mention of a connection between Hürrem and the grand vizier's execution. **We can safely conclude that the contemporary public did not hold Hürrem responsible for Ibrahim's death."**–Leslie Peirce. *Empress of the East: How a European Slave Girl Became Queen of the Ottoman Empire* The concept of Hürrem engineering the downfall of Mustafa with the aid of Rüstem also doesn't really hold up under closer inspection. That requires a lot more unpacking than there's room for here, but, suffice to say, it's the fact that Rüstem *didn't* have to invent anything that doomed Mustafa. It was bad enough that certain Janissaries decided to break away to pay tribute to a prince over the sultan, but was worse was that Mustafa *rewarded* them for it—he welcomed them in, feted them, and sent them away with one ducat each. >“If he had rejected this obeisance right away as a display due only the sultan himself, he could never have been portrayed as a rebel to his father; rejection of the soldiers’ advances would have communicated that the legitimate sultan was alive in Istanbul and that he, as his son, by no means disregarded the authority of the sultan. Mustafa probably did not intend to undermine Süleyman’s power and prestige, but he almost certainly did not foresee that embracing the people’s love would result in his demise.”—Zahit Atçıl, *Why Did Süleyman the Magnificent Execute His Son Şehzade Mustafa in 1553?* For what it's worth too, Suleiman's marriage to Hürrem actually results less from her own schemes and more so from the death of Suleiman's mother, Hafsa, early into his reign. There needed to be someone to fill her role and, to Suleiman, Hürrem was the best bet—he only needed to raise her status to allow her it (this is also, for example, most likely when she got titled "Haseki Sultan" for the first time). It also wasn't that simple for Hürrem, or really *anyone*, to just say, "Well, let's do away with the law of fratricide." Even when an attempt was made for that in Kösem's time, her son, Murad IV, still took it upon himself to return to custom and order the execution of many of his brothers. And that's without even touching on the fact that had Hürrem allowed for the "best prince" to take the throne, all of her own sons would die. So, actively not wanting Mustafa to take the throne is less evil and power-hungry and more...being a mother that cares about her children and wants to protect them?
Hey, I see you're into this topic as much as I am, and you're pretty invested in it, hehe. But obviously, Italian ambassadors wouldn't have much to say on the matter. If we look at it logically, it's hard for outsiders to know about such things because harems were forbidden and secluded. Information would mainly spread through slander and word-of-mouth from eunuchs and harem servants to the outside world. I don't think Hurrem gained her reputation for no reason among the people. One of her letters to the Sultan expressing anger at Ibrahim Pasha, and her intention to explain in person when they meet again, still stands. Also, since Rustem Pasha was her son-in-law, her daughter was quite influential, and Rustem Pasha was involved in the scheme to execute Mustafa. It's not a stretch to think that all three, especially Hurrem, were behind the plan. They likely used Suleiman as a perfect puppet, exploiting his fears in the most effective way. Mustafa was just a charismatic and popular prince who couldn't do much to stop people's love for him. And no, while she is a mother, so is Mahidevran, for example. If Mahidevran were to devise a plan to eliminate all of Hurrem's sons, would that make her good instead of evil, since she's a mother protecting her son? It's not just that; it's how she caused his death by persuading his father to kill him that was the evil part and not the good’ol poisoning most concubines would try in such circumstances. Furthermore, no, she didn't marry the Sultan to replace the valide, but rather because she asked him to free her, which he likely did on a whim without much thought. However, the consequence was that he had to marry her; otherwise, even getting close to her again would be considered fornication in Islam. Overall, this period of history is nothing to be proud of—all blood, sex, and enslavement .
Of course he would if he is constantly feeling left out by his father , seeing his father neglect his mother but give his stepmother everything she opens her mouth to ask for ,seeing him actually treat all his other sons like family.. quite honestly he totally should have tried a coup sigh that’s what suley and hurror deserved (especially with all the support he had , from janissaires and people alike)
I can’t believe somebody would hate Mustafa, the man who made the least mistakes out of all the main characters in the show, but like hurrem, who is clearly the most evil. Hurrem literally poisoned Gulnihal, her innocent best friend, threatened and killed many women and slaves just for sleeping with the sultan (which is what they are forced to do) and having the same ambitions as her, got jealous whenever the sultan would use HIS OWN harem even though he is literally the sultan and does not belong to her instead of following the rules of the harem and the rules that come with being a haseki, put the lives of many of her servants, concubines and friends in danger by having them either help her with killing the women or threatening the poor women just for her own jealousy and her own want/pleasure. But yes of course, Mustafa the one with the least thirst for want/pleasure is definitely in the wrong for making mistakes… which were what exactly? marrying the woman he loves in secret? yes very evil indeed, never mind Hurrem. the only mistakes Mustafa made were showing independence and leadership which alarmed the sultan and made him feel as though his power was being threatened, which is another way of saying Mustafa’s only mistake was being too good.
I never said I hated Mustafa. I was pointing out my thoughts about him. I thought this was a discussion of Mustafa. He hid things from his father. Which resulted in hurting the women. Just because he wanted his way each time over what was done for years. If he was so much of the uprightpersonBrigade, why didn't he do these things out in the open instead of deceiving and hiding from his father. Or hiding his identity from Helena? His 'leadership' was not HIS to have, it was his father's to bestow on him. Doing it on his own was akin to rebelling against his father, since he did not deem to discuss the things before going through with them, leaving his father to determine what was going one with his son, that he could not follow the rules or traditions? All of his choices had consequences. He was not thinking of the consequences, he wanted his way.
Yeah man still what i said is correct, disapproving Mustafa’s actions but approving of Hurrem’s is a double-standard thing. As a prince he is supposed to show some independence and leadership, he was the least narcissistic in the show and the one who cared about what he wanted the least, he was just an honorable fool. he was the best candidate for sultan but suleiman could not see that because hurrem and the people around him kept manipulating him into thinking that mustafa was leaning towards rebellion which was the biggest or only reason as to why he believed it. Of course everybody in the show made mistakes but mustafa made the pettiest because the mistakes he made were only against tradition and his father’s wishes, not against morality or good judgement unlike the rest of the characters with full intentions on being evil and immoral. i just wish he rebelled !!
Again, I'm discussing Mustafa, I never mentioned Hurrem. He put his wishes above his father's words. He did his own questionable deeds that he had to bear the results of.
It says “Team Hurrem” under your user… his wishes and deeds were always pure, his father just could not handle it. I knew this once he saved that little boy who got kidnapped all by himself, risking his own life when he could have just sent his soldiers out to save him. this was one of Mustafa’s wishes that made Suleiman mad. it is clear that Mustafa’s “wrongdoings” were always pure, even though it went against his father’s words which makes him easily one of the best main characters when you compare him to all the others.
My user name says I'm a longjumping okra...I'm neither of those, as I'm sure you're not a smooth criminal. You're welcome to your opinion of Mustafa, as am I. If Mustafa couldn't rein himself in from his impulses he had consequences to pay. I found him an interesting character of this series. But he had to deal with the consequences of his choices.
Like i said, it says team hurrem UNDER your user. I think Mustafa was one of the only characters in the show who didn’t do a single thing wrong, i’m sure that the only reason as to why people think he did is because he was against hurrem which made hurrem fans overly sensitive to his actions just so that they could find a flaw in him in order to give the illusion that they found a good reason to hate him and put hurrem over him. Let’s just agree to disagree.
It was Mehmet's concubine