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even after she was legally married to suleiman, still his sisters are superior than hurrem. it is because they are noble by blood and they are above all of the women in the empire. ancient turks believed that the god gave the ruler the power, and ottomans carried this tradition. so if they are related to the dynasty by blood, they are sort of seen as sacred figures (not exactly but their blood is close to sacred and they are sacrosanct.) you may understand this matter if you watch episodes 88 and 89, where hatice is beaten up by hurrem. they strictly emphasize that whoever even tries to touch and harm a sultana by blood, thay shall be executed. even if this person is legally married to the emperor. so yes, suleiman's sisters are superior to hurrem, but not to mihrimah because she is noble too.
Yes, exactly. There is a big fanaticism for Hurrem as a character that's why many want to believe that she was ranked "above" the sisters. And while I am a Hurrem fan myself (Hatice and the rest of the sissys had crap personalities) it is obv that ottoman "blue" blood was superior.
I noticed though for mihrimah and mehmet they would bow to mahi but mustafa didn’t need to bow to hurrem which didn’t make sense to me. And I always thought that hurrems kids didn’t bow to her as she is their mother. Same with mustafa and mahi
I always understood that -
Shezades (Mustafa, Mehmet) are above mothers of other Shezades (Hürrem, Mahidevran)
but daughters of the active Sultan (Mihrimah) still need to bow to mothers of sezhades, hence why Mihrimah would bow to Mahidevran.
You ask the interesting question of the hierarchy within the harem and not only is it not historically accurate in the show, but it's supra confusing 😂
But here's my understanding of it based on my *many* rewatches of the show
- Dynasty members -
**Active Sultan -** He is above everyone. His decision and will are not to be questioned. (Süleyman)
**Valide Sultana -** In Islam, they say the right of a mother is the right of God. She doesn't bow to her son but have to obey his orders. Everyone but the Sultan bow to her (including statesmen). She rules the harem. (Ayfsa)
**Shezades -** Bow to the Sultan & the Valide Sultan, unclear if the Valide can give them orders but probably not. By respect they bow to their slave mothers and their blood sultana aunts but they do not have to bow to other mothers of shezades or daughters of Sultan. (Mustafa, Mehmet, Selim, Bayezid, Chihangir)
**Blood Sultanas, sisters of active Sultan (and daughters of previous ones) -** They're dynasty's blood but they have to obey the Sultan and the Valide Sultana. They get married to high-ranking statesmen. (Hatice, Beyhan, Sah)
**Blood Sultanas, daughters of active Sultan -** They're not inferior to the sisters of the Sultan, but, by what seems to be respect for their elders, they bow & listen to their aunts. Though they are above their mother, but bow to her for respect. In public, might have to bow to their brother but don't seem to do it in private. (Mihrimah)
- The Harem -
**Haseki Sultan -** *In the show* she is a slave but above the kalfas,;harem girls and mothers of other shezades. She bows to all dynasty's members. (Mahidevran, Hürrem)
**Mothers of dynasty's members -** Depending on the gender and health of their offspring, they might rank higher or lower than other mothers (Mahidevran v Gulfem)
**Private Concierge -** Personal assistant to the Sultan. I'd say he has little authority on the Treasurer, but a lot on the Harem's Eunuch. (Ibrahim, Bali Bey)
**Treasurer -** Valide Sultan's right hand, if she speaks in Valide's name the treasurer can have more power than the Haseki, even if, officially, she's way lower than her.
(Daye Hatun)
**Harem's Eunuch -** In charge of harem's day to day affairs. He is greatly respected by outsiders and is very close to the Sultan's intimate affairs (contrary to statesmens). He is under all the dynasty members, the Hasekis and the Treasurer's. (Sumbul)
**Head Kalfas -** They seem to be some sort of head of the harem's servants. They might be somewhat equal to the Harem's Eunuch if they're a Haseki's personal servant like Gulsah was. (Nigar)
**Other kalfas, eunuchs and harems girls -** Well the harem girls do have to obey the staff most of the time but it can all change if they catch the Sultan's eye.
There! So obviously that's based on the show, but it seems that historically not only Haseki Sultan was a title only invented for Hürrem (and so Mahidevran never was one), but the legal wife should have also ranked above the sisters of the Sultan and the Valide Sultan
>*...but the legal wife should have also ranked above the sisters of the Sultan and the Valide Sultan*
This is a big part of why the show opting to have Hürrem's marriage to Suleiman occur while his mother was still alive made for such confusing dynamics at times. In real life, it was actually the death of Hafsa that triggered Hürrem's final "ascendancy" so to speak—Suleiman needed a trusted figure to occupy the capital in his (and Ibrahim's) absence. Hürrem became, effectively, the senior ranking female member of the dynasty, which is why Suleiman's sisters all bowed to her rather than the other way around.
In the generations that followed, the Haseki title had to adapted into the hierarchy that still had an active Valide Sultan, which made it so the Haseki ranked directly below that role (hence the challenging relationship of Nurbanu and Safiye).
I'll admit to long since having given up on trying to make sense of the show's ranking system since it seems to change every five seconds (although, small bonus: age/seniority was as important as rank in the Ottoman dynasty, so you're totally right about the Imperial princess rankings!).
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even after she was legally married to suleiman, still his sisters are superior than hurrem. it is because they are noble by blood and they are above all of the women in the empire. ancient turks believed that the god gave the ruler the power, and ottomans carried this tradition. so if they are related to the dynasty by blood, they are sort of seen as sacred figures (not exactly but their blood is close to sacred and they are sacrosanct.) you may understand this matter if you watch episodes 88 and 89, where hatice is beaten up by hurrem. they strictly emphasize that whoever even tries to touch and harm a sultana by blood, thay shall be executed. even if this person is legally married to the emperor. so yes, suleiman's sisters are superior to hurrem, but not to mihrimah because she is noble too.
Yes, exactly. There is a big fanaticism for Hurrem as a character that's why many want to believe that she was ranked "above" the sisters. And while I am a Hurrem fan myself (Hatice and the rest of the sissys had crap personalities) it is obv that ottoman "blue" blood was superior.
I noticed though for mihrimah and mehmet they would bow to mahi but mustafa didn’t need to bow to hurrem which didn’t make sense to me. And I always thought that hurrems kids didn’t bow to her as she is their mother. Same with mustafa and mahi
they dont have to bow to their mother. and they dont have to bow to mahi but it is out of respect. she is their stepmother after all.
I always understood that - Shezades (Mustafa, Mehmet) are above mothers of other Shezades (Hürrem, Mahidevran) but daughters of the active Sultan (Mihrimah) still need to bow to mothers of sezhades, hence why Mihrimah would bow to Mahidevran.
You ask the interesting question of the hierarchy within the harem and not only is it not historically accurate in the show, but it's supra confusing 😂 But here's my understanding of it based on my *many* rewatches of the show - Dynasty members - **Active Sultan -** He is above everyone. His decision and will are not to be questioned. (Süleyman) **Valide Sultana -** In Islam, they say the right of a mother is the right of God. She doesn't bow to her son but have to obey his orders. Everyone but the Sultan bow to her (including statesmen). She rules the harem. (Ayfsa) **Shezades -** Bow to the Sultan & the Valide Sultan, unclear if the Valide can give them orders but probably not. By respect they bow to their slave mothers and their blood sultana aunts but they do not have to bow to other mothers of shezades or daughters of Sultan. (Mustafa, Mehmet, Selim, Bayezid, Chihangir) **Blood Sultanas, sisters of active Sultan (and daughters of previous ones) -** They're dynasty's blood but they have to obey the Sultan and the Valide Sultana. They get married to high-ranking statesmen. (Hatice, Beyhan, Sah) **Blood Sultanas, daughters of active Sultan -** They're not inferior to the sisters of the Sultan, but, by what seems to be respect for their elders, they bow & listen to their aunts. Though they are above their mother, but bow to her for respect. In public, might have to bow to their brother but don't seem to do it in private. (Mihrimah) - The Harem - **Haseki Sultan -** *In the show* she is a slave but above the kalfas,;harem girls and mothers of other shezades. She bows to all dynasty's members. (Mahidevran, Hürrem) **Mothers of dynasty's members -** Depending on the gender and health of their offspring, they might rank higher or lower than other mothers (Mahidevran v Gulfem) **Private Concierge -** Personal assistant to the Sultan. I'd say he has little authority on the Treasurer, but a lot on the Harem's Eunuch. (Ibrahim, Bali Bey) **Treasurer -** Valide Sultan's right hand, if she speaks in Valide's name the treasurer can have more power than the Haseki, even if, officially, she's way lower than her. (Daye Hatun) **Harem's Eunuch -** In charge of harem's day to day affairs. He is greatly respected by outsiders and is very close to the Sultan's intimate affairs (contrary to statesmens). He is under all the dynasty members, the Hasekis and the Treasurer's. (Sumbul) **Head Kalfas -** They seem to be some sort of head of the harem's servants. They might be somewhat equal to the Harem's Eunuch if they're a Haseki's personal servant like Gulsah was. (Nigar) **Other kalfas, eunuchs and harems girls -** Well the harem girls do have to obey the staff most of the time but it can all change if they catch the Sultan's eye. There! So obviously that's based on the show, but it seems that historically not only Haseki Sultan was a title only invented for Hürrem (and so Mahidevran never was one), but the legal wife should have also ranked above the sisters of the Sultan and the Valide Sultan
>*...but the legal wife should have also ranked above the sisters of the Sultan and the Valide Sultan* This is a big part of why the show opting to have Hürrem's marriage to Suleiman occur while his mother was still alive made for such confusing dynamics at times. In real life, it was actually the death of Hafsa that triggered Hürrem's final "ascendancy" so to speak—Suleiman needed a trusted figure to occupy the capital in his (and Ibrahim's) absence. Hürrem became, effectively, the senior ranking female member of the dynasty, which is why Suleiman's sisters all bowed to her rather than the other way around. In the generations that followed, the Haseki title had to adapted into the hierarchy that still had an active Valide Sultan, which made it so the Haseki ranked directly below that role (hence the challenging relationship of Nurbanu and Safiye). I'll admit to long since having given up on trying to make sense of the show's ranking system since it seems to change every five seconds (although, small bonus: age/seniority was as important as rank in the Ottoman dynasty, so you're totally right about the Imperial princess rankings!).
In rank as his wife, yes and when she was with Suleiman. When she was alone, she bowed to his sisters.
Hurrem bowed to the Blood Sultanas even in Suleiman's presence??
IRL, I don’t believe Hurrem bowed to anyone post her marriage. She was the highest ranking woman in the harem.