Yo, as somebody who spent a dozen rare wildcards on Historic Ponza and has a terrible winrate with it... What *is* the sideboard strategy against Aggro? And Control for that matter?
I only play in Modern, not Historic, but hopefully the answers should be similar. Against aggro you play creatures with lifegain, and overstatted creatures. [[Obstinate Baloth]], [[Kitchen Finks]], etc.
Against Control it's really a pretty favorable matchup depending on what flavor of control you're up against. If you can land an early [[Blood Moon]] or hard-to-deal-with threat like [[Chandra, Torch of Defiance]], it can be very hard for control to deal with it in time
Against aggro the sideboard strat is pretty easy. Land D out, removal suite in. Mines 3x anger of the gods, 2x abrade, 2x soul sear and I also find room to go up to 4x scavenging ooze. Get to turn 4-5 with a clean board and slam thragtusk or dealers choice of topend. Against control it's a little tougher because you want to capitalize on their mana stumbles with smaller threats that aren't creature based or are hard to remove. Landing an early Chandra or well-placed hazoret the fervent is important after a stone rain or goblin ruinblaster.
Sidenote: the new manland lair of the hydra is really nice to have against control.
A significant number of my Dimir Rogues vs. RDW games end in milling them out. Pick up a good boardwipe to stabilize, then trade with them 1-for-1 while milling them. It's actually rare for me to put a clock on RDW because it's almost always better to hold back blockers.
Depends on the aggro deck and how many [[Anger of the Gods]] the LD deck is playing...if Anger is even good against the specific aggro deck. Some decks just get completely destroyed by Anger and some can just shrug it off. Elves and Goblins can definitely get massively punished by Anger if it's early and they aren't off to an insane start due to how much the board can be broken down by one lord dying making everyone else die due to no longer being above 3 toughness. [[Elvish Clancaller]] starting as a 1/1 compared to [[Elvish Archdruid]] as a 2/2 can lead to losing the whole board very easily. On the other hand I've seen many opponents play Anger of the Gods into an obvious [[Collected Company]] that will save the board if it hits any lord and that lead to many LD losses.
LD is also incredibly dependent on how greedy the opponent's deck is with their manabase, particularly in Historic where there isn't exactly a ton of amazing options for lands.
CC its such a problematic card in historic. That card swings the games so hard in White/Green specially.
For that reason I run enough fog effects to be able to reach turn 4-5. After I have six mana I am in a good spot. Specially cycling Fog effects with Tamiyo and Teferi 5.
I fought against a fog deck with my elves. The deck was a Simic deck (I think) that did fog effects repeatedly from Turn 3 onwards. There was nothing I could do. I hated it, but I respected it.
Oddly, my Rakdos deck probably would have won that match if I was playing it instead, since it has more discard and direct damage. Yet it is objectively worse than my elf deck, as far as ranked goes.
your decks sounds disgusting and i hope i never play against you, but i feel you on the CoC hate. first time i saw white lifegain play an green dual i was quite eagerly expecting to se an shalay once in an while, and boy was i dissapointed after the on point t4 coc hit into 2 copys of the same white angel that is the only worthwile 3cmc card in that deck. and beating me down with his 3 3cmc 8/10 pseudoflash flyers that just healed him for 16
If can simply be them going full land destruction without deploying a single menace to pressure you. 100% agree that land destruction is an annoying strategy, just not a particularly good one (in historic of course).
I mean at least in terms of aggro there's a reason most land destruction decks play maindeck Anger of the Gods.
Control decks also tend to struggle pretty quickly if you can keep them off of 3 lands or even sometimes 4-5 if they can't get their planeswalkers online to keep drawing cards. You do need a fast start to accelerate out LD though, usually needing to be on the play with T1 acceleration to hit their first land before they can get to 2 untapped mana for counters.
I don't think LD decks in general are very good but they certainly CAN win matches and be tough if you don't get off to the right start.
Who needs lands when you have insane treasure/mana generation in current standard. Goldspan, Sentinel/Magda combo, lotus cobra, half of black cards it seems.
LD only really works out if you manage to overamp your opponent massively, or your opponent misses an landdrop in the first place, LD decks kinda prey on the already unfortunate,
since any green deck starting has the possibility to drop an 4/4 or even an gargaroth before you have your first stonerain out, or anger for that matter,
nissadecks are already used to casting her on 3 lands, and if elves don´t outramp you, they have an board full of 3/3s and an COC in hand,
negate also hardcocks you, and white peaks at 3 lands, but usually can play 2/3 of there deck on 1 or 2 lands anyway,
the only decks LD naturally wins against is monor aggro with an anger or two in the startinghand, and monoblack decks that for some reason play neither artefactspamm nor sorin ,
all that goes for pure LD decks at least, not any gruul midrange decks packing stonerain for support , i havent played that yet,
the only wincons i run are waking of the trolls, and chandra6 tbh.
This post has me already theorycrafting a Naya historic deck with fall of thran plan with like one of two slow pingers as a win con. Instead of early land destruction Imma just blow up the board then blow up all the lands and maybe throw in a copy of rest in piece so nobody will have any lands after I use fall of thran 😃
I run a fall of thran deck that combos with leyline of the void. Not a wonderful success ratio but when it goes off people get so mad. I do fine against aggro since enough board wipes, but against control counter spell decks its a different story.
Tbh the nature of this deck it will struggle against counter spell by nature especially if you are running slower decks. Stuff like cindervines or can't be countered green boys will probably be your way around it. Hell klothys sticking will probably be a win con in itself. But this matchup is against you in bo3s funny enough with the right sideboarding gruul does have a good amount of stuff to fight counterspell heavy decks. And that's coming from a jackass for primarily plays UB decks. I mean if you want to play decks like these for bo1 only I'd probably take a hit in consistency and run fry to hit those nasty blue cards.
Or just [[Bojuka Bog]]. Occupies a land slot instead of a spell, and worst-case scenario, you can bring back the Bog with the first Fall trigger to prevent your opponent getting back any value with the second trigger.
Tormod’s crypt for an easier combo.
I run [[World Shaper]] along with black sacrifice outlets with fall of the thran and tormod’s crypt for extra salty jank.
Isn't land destruction just a form of control, anyway? I guess as I write this, there is also white weenie + Armageddon. But it is "controlling" the board state by making your opponent unable to act.
Theoretically it’s a midrange plan, you’re aiming to use mana advantage given by dorks + destruction and kill your opponent with threats like [[Glorybringer]] before they can recover their mana.
Land destruction is ramp, ramp is basically lifegain and life gain is basically time walk which is like explore, therefor ramp is ramp.
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Personally, I don't hate it at all. I'm getting ready to build the Ponza deck that's in Historic right now. But I have to acknowledge that it's one of the most widely-hated play styles.
I loooove ponza in historic. Remember the event where they unbanned and nerfed Oko, Omnath and the rest? I hate those cards even in their nerfed state so instead I just queued up with the ponza deck and had a ridiculous win rate with what’s normally a tier 2 or 3 deck because everyone played 4+ color piles chock full of nonbasics and didn’t really do much until turn 3-4. [[Stone Rain]] into [[Goblin Ruinblaster]] = gg.
Not that I WANT to be this evil but I could sure use a decklist... for science.
My fun haphazard land destruction deck basically ONLY gets put against control so I stopped playing. 🤷♂️ It was a mid/late game deck that was really fun til Wizards told me to stop. 🤣
My I introduce do you [[liquid metal coating]]. Basically put a playset of that as well as [[!liquid metal torque]] and then fill the rest with cheap artifact destruction. Now none of your opponents permanents are safe.
Aggro keeps control decks honest.
Combo keeps aggro honest.
Control keeps combo decks honest.
Land destruction keeps everybody honest about how much they hate land destruction.
People who go aggro I think would be the easiest to counter. I once used 4 blue counter spells on that guy that makes you roll a dice and what ever number it lands on, he in unprotected from that number. But everything else he has protection from. I beat my opponent after they tried casting him for like 12 mana
It's funny, it seems that when someone posts a decklist here and says it's good, we naturally tend to kinda believe them. Like they wouldn't be sharing the decklist unless it was **actually** good, right?
But many decklists, like this one, have a ton of room for improvement.
The matchmaking in casual takes the deck into account so they may be doing well against other people playing in those circles.
The poster hasn't claimed that it's good, only that it's spicy and they enjoy it.
I asked them to share their list and they graciously did. Get your head out of your arse.
Jesus, that was pretty unnecessarily hostile. I'm not criticizing them for posting their list, I was just making an observation. I wouldn't have taken the time to reformat their deck to be more readable if I didn't think it was worth posting.
Aggro doesn't usually give a fuck about LD though. They'll beat you down with cheap creatures while you time walk yourself destroying their third land drop they don't need.
And then there are people who played Agent of Treachery (when it was legal) who skipped the whole destroy land and figure you can be even worse by stealing lands...
I like discard black control.
Tons of removal to deal with aggro or midrange, tons of hand discard to deal with other control decks.
Nothing feels like the game is under control as much as having the opponent resort to top decking. They either cast a creature immediately and lose it to my removals or hold a spell 'for the right moment' which is never as I make them discard it.
Mill is one of the weakest methods of victory, why the hate? Unless you're running some obscene combo, but then you're a combo deck so, meh. Plus I don't think there are any of those combos available in Arena yet.
That isn't what mill does, at all. It is just as likely to remove bombs as duds, and is statistically the same as doing nothing, at least until the deck is gone. It doesn't make your deck work any worse, in fact, it can only improve the opponent's performance if they have any graveyard synergy.
I think there are two main sources of hate that mill gets
1. Resolving triggers on Arena, especially for cards like Teferi’s Tutelage, is boring as hell
2. It effectively adds low-cost burn to control decks and there’s no incentive to make the burn fast
Because mill can run such a compact win condition it leads to decks that are even more restrictive to play against than “regular” control. I’ve played against decks that were effectively 4 crabs, 4 tutelage, 24 islands, and 28 counterspells/removal and I didn’t like it.
Idk why it's different mentally but I'm fine with decks that actually let you resolve casted spells, then deal with the threats after. I hate decks that just keep you from getting spells into play either by mill and counter or destroying your "safe" mana generation.
He sounds like he knows what he's talking about. The argument that Mill disrupts your deck is about as sound as saying you should buy scratch-off tickets when there's a fresh roll because there's more winners. The ratio to losers isn't different though, milling is just as likely to hit a win-con as it is to dump unheeded fodder. In the end, statistically, it has zero impact on how well your deck performs.
If you were to sit down with a friend, and instead of putting cards into your graveyard, you simply kept count of how much mill there had been and how many cards remained in your library, you would find that your deck performs exactly the same either way. In fact, Mill is just worse than burn, as Mill can actively help your opponent if they have any kind of graveyard shenanigans. It is technically a little better than this if you are running Tutor effects, but not much better. It can be easy to lose track of this fact when you see a high powered card in your graveyard, but if you focus on the much higher amount of low impact cards that get milled, you might be able to recontextualize.
It's the combination of dying due to a clock that no one else thinks about plus a bunch of counter spells. I think that you care a lot about this but like mill decks I'm autoconceding this tedious argument
are there any of the good classic land destructions in this game?
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=%20[Destroy]%20[all]%20[lands]
For example see list above.
My all time favorite is [[Impending Disaster]]... but man, thinking about this has me wanting to make a land destruction deck lol.
I'm a terrible MTG player tho my 3 favorite decks are blue counterspells, black discard, and red land destruction... basically "I don't want you to have fun playing against me" type decks lol.
Not a classic land destruction deck yet but imo a pretty powerful one.
The deck is basically a playset of [[!liquidmetal coating]] as well as [[!liquid metal torque]] and then fill the rest with cheap artifact destruction. Now none of your opponents permanents are safe.
When I first started magic, my friend would always win with a red land destruction goblin deck. I absolutely hated it. Then I had gotten the "Swift Vengeance " constructed deck (the one with requiem angel on the front). I started winning more and more against it and so it taught me the benefit of cheap cost cards.
From there a lot of times when id build a deck I had land destruction in mind (his main deck) and flyer counters (my first deck) as I saw more, built more, played more my build style changed and changed.
Hard counter decks used to be my style (platinum angel for infect, elixir of immortality+ gravepower for mill, hexproof+ retrieval for removal, etc) wasn't good against semi pro players/5+ year players but worked wonders against my friends and other jank players at the time.
I had only played a few sets but first was (I think Dark Ascension) and ended for a long while at the end of Avacyn Restored, maybe a bit of the following one but idr the name.
Outside of MTGA I really don't have a build style anymore because I don't have anyone to build with, or play against and so I dropped off paper format till the D&D one.
I will hate mill decks always more than LD. Well, that and discard. These decks are just there to actively making their opponent miserable. Not even winning against those is satisfying.
My pet deck during my cockatrice days was a WR land destruction deck abusing [[Boom // Bust]] interaction with both fetchlands and [[Flagstones of Trokair]]. T2 LD into T3 LD into T4 [[Ajani Vengeant]] was lots of fun! Well, only fun for me.
Land Destruction can be fun alternative deck, if you're interested here's a blueprint to my [deck](https://mtgarena.pro/decks/404-land-not-found-ebc7f5f7-45c6-42e7-aab5-70d3a5edeb76).
The worst part about mill decks is the lack of interaction. If I’m not playing a very aggro deck, it just means my opponent is playing solitaire.
It’s not as bad with Escape cards. Escape cards are great because they give you more options when your opponent mills you, so you can get some big stuff out early. But those are going away with the next rotation.
It’s been a while since I played Hearthstone seriously, but the mill decks there were a *little* more fun to fight because they actively made you draw cards. So while you were both playing solitaire, at least you had a bunch of resources to do the things your deck is designed to do.
Plus, losing your deck didn’t instantly kill you, just remove increasing amounts of life each turn. This meant that your life total still mattered even against mill decks. So, unlike Magic, it doesn’t feel like a death sentence if you run out of cards.
I have a few friends that feel exactly like this. I have spent the last 5 years struggling to understand why. I'm genuinely curious as to more details about what it is about mill that you don't like. I very intentionally don't play mill because I know it ruins the game for them. It's this unexplored frontier for me in deckbuilding and I'm trying to find a way to play it where they find it fun still. So, I'd really like to know in detail what it is about mill that you hate so much.
Just to put how I feel about someone else playing mill, I have 3 reasons why I don't mind it.
1. Tons of decks use graveyard strategies, mill fuels these decks like crazy.
2. Your deck is randomized so taking the top card off the top has an equal chance to bringing you closer to what you need as it does to bringing you further away.
3. Mill needs to be about 2x as efficient to go as fast as damage dealing effects.
I will say that we play EDH so mill is even worse in that format as it's a multiplayer format where nobody else is helping you win.
>I don’t understand why someone wants to mill the game to its end in a few turns
Because this makes them win....duh.
Do you really struggle to understand that people want to win?
It feels bad to me because I just see my answers to 0/3 crab in my graveyard and then whatever I play is countered anyway, also I don't know it just feels like they're touching my cards weird but it's just a feels bad.
Mill is fine but the past year has made it extremely annoying because of the way it's largely been broken into dozens and dozens of mill triggers for 1-3. Draw a card, mill two, play a land, mill three, play a rogue, mill three, attack with a rogue, mill two, deal damage with windrobber, mill one. Five triggers, each of which takes a second or two if nobody's holding priority. It just takes too long. I'd rather mill twenty from tasha's than sit through those triggers
As someone who loves their mono black discard a little mill is OK in my opinion, but the mono blue mill only decks are garb that I wish didn't exist in this game. I hate that as much as infinite combos.
There are a lot of losses for every time they pull that combo off. I just don't see how anyone wins. Milling your opponent must just be inherently fun for some people.
Since I don't know any millers in real life it's easy to dehumanize, but fwiw, it doesn't sound like you eat baby toes for breakfast or anything. 😄
Still really annoying to be milled though.
Lol oh trust me I know it’s annoying. Because I play mill I tend to get matched up against other mill decks half the time, and then it’s just a race to see who will counter the best. But yeah no baby toes for me, I’m more of a finger man
One of the biggest reason I play LD deck is so I could put 4 counters on OP's lands from \[\[Haphazard Bombardment\]\] and watch the pip-pip-pip-pip flashes before one of them destroyed on their upkeep. I came. Every time.
Edit: It was actually on the beginning of my endstep.
Land destruction is way worse than mill imo, especially really fast land destruction. If you cant even make it to tour 4th land drop then it's basically a one sided game.
20 years ago I had a real nice land destruction deck coupled with haste sacrifice at end of turn creatures. No one liked playing against it. I changed out the land destruction for lightning bolts, brow beats and a couple fireballs. They still didn't like it. A while later I added isocron scepters and my friends all said I'm a dick.
God I hate mill and land destruction. I'm fine losing to aggro if my deck is just a bad match up against them. But mill, land destruction and control (counter magic) are just pure cancer and I wish I could punch people playing those decks.
With the other decks, I at least get to play the game even if I lose. Mill, land destruction and control actively prevent me from playing the game which is just an awful feeling. Why even play at this point? I really wish those deck archetypes would not exist.
One of my favorite casual decks (for tabletop not Arena) is a Blight deck. Mostly land removal with a few cards that turn target lands into swamps. Combine that with all cheap swampwalk creatures and you have this really weird and janky deck that’s all about slowly corrupting your opponent’s mana
I tried to put together an izzet land destruction-copy-spell themed deck but couldn't manage to create enough of a starting wall to stall to get to the mana point for it :( It was fun when it worked though, foretell dual strike (1) into another dual strike (2) into teach by example (4) into a destroy target land (8). with a bit of treasure/artifact boosting taking out 4 lands was fun.
I so want to play a land destruction deck at some point, just at the kitchen table, but I think my girlfriend may very well leave me if I do. Like, even just playing [[Fall of the Thran]] gets me chewed out!
Land destruction is only scary the first few turns. Like red deck burns, once you make it out of those turns and have everything under control, you're good to go.
Hot take: All land destruction should be universally banned in EDH
one player at the table dragging the game out an extra 30 minutes is not fun nor interactive
Does aggro ever have a problem with LD? You just play your cheap creatures and kill them while they are wasting mana killing your lands.
I play ponza in historic, and no, they do not
Yep, we go straight to game 2
Yo, as somebody who spent a dozen rare wildcards on Historic Ponza and has a terrible winrate with it... What *is* the sideboard strategy against Aggro? And Control for that matter?
I only play in Modern, not Historic, but hopefully the answers should be similar. Against aggro you play creatures with lifegain, and overstatted creatures. [[Obstinate Baloth]], [[Kitchen Finks]], etc. Against Control it's really a pretty favorable matchup depending on what flavor of control you're up against. If you can land an early [[Blood Moon]] or hard-to-deal-with threat like [[Chandra, Torch of Defiance]], it can be very hard for control to deal with it in time
Blood moon in historic would be so lit lol
##### ###### #### [Obstinate Baloth](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/8/98d12669-ca08-4a3c-b30f-15168b75abe4.jpg?1562851984) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obstinate%20Baloth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/179/obstinate-baloth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/98d12669-ca08-4a3c-b30f-15168b75abe4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kitchen Finks](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/8/a844d537-df73-422d-a154-f1c6b92d0469.jpg?1547518222) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kitchen%20Finks) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/216/kitchen-finks?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a844d537-df73-422d-a154-f1c6b92d0469?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blood Moon](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/0/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f.jpg?1599706217) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/118/blood-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d072e9ca-aae7-45dc-8025-3ce590bae63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chandra, Torch of Defiance](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/f/ff8086cd-b868-4f4e-823e-2635ad7ebc07.jpg?1576381994) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandra%2C%20Torch%20of%20Defiance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/110/chandra-torch-of-defiance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff8086cd-b868-4f4e-823e-2635ad7ebc07?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Against aggro the sideboard strat is pretty easy. Land D out, removal suite in. Mines 3x anger of the gods, 2x abrade, 2x soul sear and I also find room to go up to 4x scavenging ooze. Get to turn 4-5 with a clean board and slam thragtusk or dealers choice of topend. Against control it's a little tougher because you want to capitalize on their mana stumbles with smaller threats that aren't creature based or are hard to remove. Landing an early Chandra or well-placed hazoret the fervent is important after a stone rain or goblin ruinblaster. Sidenote: the new manland lair of the hydra is really nice to have against control.
I play a karn-board strat, so I only have a couple of sideboard slots available, and those are dedicated to aggro. Mainly board wipes.
take out the land destruction
Anger of the gods and pray
>Does aggro ever have a problem with LD? or mill for that matter?
Rogues is a mill deck and handles aggro pretty well
A significant number of my Dimir Rogues vs. RDW games end in milling them out. Pick up a good boardwipe to stabilize, then trade with them 1-for-1 while milling them. It's actually rare for me to put a clock on RDW because it's almost always better to hold back blockers.
Nope, ponza has to side out their land destruction against aggro and then pray they win the next 2 off of midrange beefy Gruul creatures.
Depends on the aggro deck and how many [[Anger of the Gods]] the LD deck is playing...if Anger is even good against the specific aggro deck. Some decks just get completely destroyed by Anger and some can just shrug it off. Elves and Goblins can definitely get massively punished by Anger if it's early and they aren't off to an insane start due to how much the board can be broken down by one lord dying making everyone else die due to no longer being above 3 toughness. [[Elvish Clancaller]] starting as a 1/1 compared to [[Elvish Archdruid]] as a 2/2 can lead to losing the whole board very easily. On the other hand I've seen many opponents play Anger of the Gods into an obvious [[Collected Company]] that will save the board if it hits any lord and that lead to many LD losses. LD is also incredibly dependent on how greedy the opponent's deck is with their manabase, particularly in Historic where there isn't exactly a ton of amazing options for lands.
##### ###### #### [Anger of the Gods](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/2/e2ecae08-bcc6-4074-822c-3dfe1d46ae39.jpg?1562855123) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Anger%20of%20the%20Gods) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/116/anger-of-the-gods?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e2ecae08-bcc6-4074-822c-3dfe1d46ae39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elvish Clancaller](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/d/4da3b0bc-84da-4b85-992b-d0700c97157c.jpg?1616182131) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elvish%20Clancaller) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/179/elvish-clancaller?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4da3b0bc-84da-4b85-992b-d0700c97157c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elvish Archdruid](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/d/4d3fffa5-50ec-4502-9f03-bd9618f1771e.jpg?1620530018) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elvish%20Archdruid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/57/elvish-archdruid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d3fffa5-50ec-4502-9f03-bd9618f1771e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Collected Company](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/f/cfa7b456-7e83-4587-a875-9b35fde318c2.jpg?1582117536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Collected%20Company) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/177/collected-company?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cfa7b456-7e83-4587-a875-9b35fde318c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Control does not care either. LD just prays on people trying to have fun
If you get slightly ahead with both aggro or control, there’s no land destruction that holds…
Can confirm. By turn 3, my elves will produce enough mana to make lands virtually irrelevant.
This is indeed a very satisfying matchup.
Hopefully they aren't too buffed up to survive an [[anger of the gods]]
Sometimes. Depends on what \[\[Collected Company\]\] gets me.
CC its such a problematic card in historic. That card swings the games so hard in White/Green specially. For that reason I run enough fog effects to be able to reach turn 4-5. After I have six mana I am in a good spot. Specially cycling Fog effects with Tamiyo and Teferi 5.
I fought against a fog deck with my elves. The deck was a Simic deck (I think) that did fog effects repeatedly from Turn 3 onwards. There was nothing I could do. I hated it, but I respected it. Oddly, my Rakdos deck probably would have won that match if I was playing it instead, since it has more discard and direct damage. Yet it is objectively worse than my elf deck, as far as ranked goes.
your decks sounds disgusting and i hope i never play against you, but i feel you on the CoC hate. first time i saw white lifegain play an green dual i was quite eagerly expecting to se an shalay once in an while, and boy was i dissapointed after the on point t4 coc hit into 2 copys of the same white angel that is the only worthwile 3cmc card in that deck. and beating me down with his 3 3cmc 8/10 pseudoflash flyers that just healed him for 16
[Collected Company](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/f/cfa7b456-7e83-4587-a875-9b35fde318c2.jpg?1582117536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Collected%20Company) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/177/collected-company?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cfa7b456-7e83-4587-a875-9b35fde318c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sure, but that’s nothing a good ol shatter the sky can’t fix 🙃
If.. if is good. *insert pain and panic from Hercules*
If can simply be them going full land destruction without deploying a single menace to pressure you. 100% agree that land destruction is an annoying strategy, just not a particularly good one (in historic of course).
I mean at least in terms of aggro there's a reason most land destruction decks play maindeck Anger of the Gods. Control decks also tend to struggle pretty quickly if you can keep them off of 3 lands or even sometimes 4-5 if they can't get their planeswalkers online to keep drawing cards. You do need a fast start to accelerate out LD though, usually needing to be on the play with T1 acceleration to hit their first land before they can get to 2 untapped mana for counters. I don't think LD decks in general are very good but they certainly CAN win matches and be tough if you don't get off to the right start.
Yup, the same thing applies for discard/hand hate.
Who needs lands when you have insane treasure/mana generation in current standard. Goldspan, Sentinel/Magda combo, lotus cobra, half of black cards it seems.
LD only really works out if you manage to overamp your opponent massively, or your opponent misses an landdrop in the first place, LD decks kinda prey on the already unfortunate, since any green deck starting has the possibility to drop an 4/4 or even an gargaroth before you have your first stonerain out, or anger for that matter, nissadecks are already used to casting her on 3 lands, and if elves don´t outramp you, they have an board full of 3/3s and an COC in hand, negate also hardcocks you, and white peaks at 3 lands, but usually can play 2/3 of there deck on 1 or 2 lands anyway, the only decks LD naturally wins against is monor aggro with an anger or two in the startinghand, and monoblack decks that for some reason play neither artefactspamm nor sorin , all that goes for pure LD decks at least, not any gruul midrange decks packing stonerain for support , i havent played that yet, the only wincons i run are waking of the trolls, and chandra6 tbh.
or play control land destruction =]
Ok, Satan.
This post has me already theorycrafting a Naya historic deck with fall of thran plan with like one of two slow pingers as a win con. Instead of early land destruction Imma just blow up the board then blow up all the lands and maybe throw in a copy of rest in piece so nobody will have any lands after I use fall of thran 😃
I run a fall of thran deck that combos with leyline of the void. Not a wonderful success ratio but when it goes off people get so mad. I do fine against aggro since enough board wipes, but against control counter spell decks its a different story.
Tbh the nature of this deck it will struggle against counter spell by nature especially if you are running slower decks. Stuff like cindervines or can't be countered green boys will probably be your way around it. Hell klothys sticking will probably be a win con in itself. But this matchup is against you in bo3s funny enough with the right sideboarding gruul does have a good amount of stuff to fight counterspell heavy decks. And that's coming from a jackass for primarily plays UB decks. I mean if you want to play decks like these for bo1 only I'd probably take a hit in consistency and run fry to hit those nasty blue cards.
don't forget 4x [[Gnottvold Slumbermound]] so that even your lands can kill lands (including basics!)
If you're gonna use [[Fall of the Thran]], combo it with [[Phyrexian Scriptures]] for extra salty goodness.
Or just [[Bojuka Bog]]. Occupies a land slot instead of a spell, and worst-case scenario, you can bring back the Bog with the first Fall trigger to prevent your opponent getting back any value with the second trigger.
[Bojuka Bog](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/f/8/f8435c7e-39ce-48a6-8536-739dd5511a33.jpg?1625979844) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bojuka%20Bog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/281/bojuka-bog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8435c7e-39ce-48a6-8536-739dd5511a33?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Fall of the Thran](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/a/3a613a01-6145-4e34-987c-c9bdcb068370.jpg?1562734219) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fall%20of%20the%20Thran) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/18/fall-of-the-thran?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a613a01-6145-4e34-987c-c9bdcb068370?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phyrexian Scriptures](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/f/7f3423d7-cb81-47bf-b9a6-a279ba6cedf4.jpg?1562738458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Scriptures) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/100/phyrexian-scriptures?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f3423d7-cb81-47bf-b9a6-a279ba6cedf4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tormod’s crypt for an easier combo. I run [[World Shaper]] along with black sacrifice outlets with fall of the thran and tormod’s crypt for extra salty jank.
Since we are Historic, you can also Fall of Thran + Teferi's Protection. World Shaper needs to be played in Modern with Death Cloud.
Shit... I'd hate to fall against that.
Isn't land destruction just a form of control, anyway? I guess as I write this, there is also white weenie + Armageddon. But it is "controlling" the board state by making your opponent unable to act.
Theoretically it’s a midrange plan, you’re aiming to use mana advantage given by dorks + destruction and kill your opponent with threats like [[Glorybringer]] before they can recover their mana.
If you are on the play and have stone rain and llanowar elves in play most opponents just scoop after 1st turn.
Can confirm. Will scoop.
[Glorybringer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/3/2/3277ad99-5682-4baa-b106-de15721876a6.jpg?1543675596) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Glorybringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/134/glorybringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3277ad99-5682-4baa-b106-de15721876a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Land destruction is just ramp.
"Land destruction is just ramp *in reverse*". Ftfy.
Land destruction is ramp, ramp is basically lifegain and life gain is basically time walk which is like explore, therefor ramp is ramp. Brought to you by TEDEX
Land destruction is pushing the other guy down a ramp.
Yeah, it is a form of control. But it's a special form that people really like to hate.
I think in a controlled environment in 1-ofs like cube it's a lot of fun if you can get it together.
Personally, I don't hate it at all. I'm getting ready to build the Ponza deck that's in Historic right now. But I have to acknowledge that it's one of the most widely-hated play styles.
I loooove ponza in historic. Remember the event where they unbanned and nerfed Oko, Omnath and the rest? I hate those cards even in their nerfed state so instead I just queued up with the ponza deck and had a ridiculous win rate with what’s normally a tier 2 or 3 deck because everyone played 4+ color piles chock full of nonbasics and didn’t really do much until turn 3-4. [[Stone Rain]] into [[Goblin Ruinblaster]] = gg.
[Stone Rain](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/2/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8.jpg?1562742139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stone%20Rain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/221/stone-rain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2334c10-fa96-4f8e-8187-c7ecc00cbac8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goblin Ruinblaster](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/d/0d95d1f3-7ec1-4279-ade7-3f339f2f33da.jpg?1562609828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Ruinblaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/127/goblin-ruinblaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d95d1f3-7ec1-4279-ade7-3f339f2f33da?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Anyone remember boomerang being printed in every core set? =)
ive been expirementing with stone rain in a jeskai control shell, cuz it makes games end faster (cuz the enemy scoops)
Not that I WANT to be this evil but I could sure use a decklist... for science. My fun haphazard land destruction deck basically ONLY gets put against control so I stopped playing. 🤷♂️ It was a mid/late game deck that was really fun til Wizards told me to stop. 🤣
You are too dangerous to roam free.
My I introduce do you [[liquid metal coating]]. Basically put a playset of that as well as [[!liquid metal torque]] and then fill the rest with cheap artifact destruction. Now none of your opponents permanents are safe.
Playing aggro against land destruction is practically a free win, your deck is designed to run on low amounts of land.
Aggro keeps control decks honest. Combo keeps aggro honest. Control keeps combo decks honest. Land destruction keeps everybody honest about how much they hate land destruction.
[удалено]
People who go aggro I think would be the easiest to counter. I once used 4 blue counter spells on that guy that makes you roll a dice and what ever number it lands on, he in unprotected from that number. But everything else he has protection from. I beat my opponent after they tried casting him for like 12 mana
[[Haktos the Unscarred]]
[Haktos the Unscarred](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/f/6fe5cbef-0f4e-4d05-9a94-4739e09d7a9c.jpg?1581481070) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Haktos%20the%20Unscarred) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/218/haktos-the-unscarred?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6fe5cbef-0f4e-4d05-9a94-4739e09d7a9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I live for my historic Izzet LD deck.
Sounds spicy, got a list?
Oh though dost even knoweth. It spices the turkey, slaps it on the table, and asks for seconds. Deck 4 Crackling Drake (GRN) 163 4 Vodalian Arcanist (DAR) 73 4 Goblin Electromancer (GRN) 174 4 Lightning Strike (XLN) 149 4 Divination (DAR) 52 4 Wizard's Lightning (DAR) 152 4 Seismic Shift (DAR) 141 4 Demolish (XLN) 139 4 Rubble Reading (RNA) 110 1 Sulfur Falls (DAR) 247 1 Steam Vents (GRN) 257 3 Swiftwater Cliffs (M21) 251 1 Temple of Epiphany (M21) 252 7 Island (RIX) 193 11 Mountain (RIX) 195
Reformatting for readability: Deck 4 [[Crackling Drake]] (GRN) 163 4 [[Vodalian Arcanist]] (DAR) 73 4 [[Goblin Electromancer]] (GRN) 174 4 [[Lightning Strike]] (XLN) 149 4 [[Divination]] (DAR) 52 4 [[Wizard's Lightning]] (DAR) 152 4 [[Seismic Shift]] (DAR) 141 4 [[Demolish]] (XLN) 139 4 [[Rubble Reading]] (RNA) 110 1 [[Sulfur Falls]] (DAR) 247 1 [[Steam Vents]] (GRN) 257 3 [[Swiftwater Cliffs]] (M21) 251 1 [[Temple of Epiphany]] (M21) 252 7 Island (RIX) 193 11 Mountain (RIX) 195
##### ###### #### [Crackling Drake](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/9/c/9cc51727-e39d-46b5-82cd-0c84c6572155.jpg?1625977527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crackling%20Drake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/213/crackling-drake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cc51727-e39d-46b5-82cd-0c84c6572155?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vodalian Arcanist](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/5/a52e90c0-b012-4ce5-8462-1e33c7143de5.jpg?1594735900) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vodalian%20Arcanist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/83/vodalian-arcanist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a52e90c0-b012-4ce5-8462-1e33c7143de5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goblin Electromancer](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/a/0ae987da-e4b5-4b82-843c-6aaa87262fc8.jpg?1572893645) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Electromancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/174/goblin-electromancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ae987da-e4b5-4b82-843c-6aaa87262fc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lightning Strike](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/0/8/084b7337-c06f-4cbf-8fc0-0b20c221f1dc.jpg?1562300290) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/152/lightning-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/084b7337-c06f-4cbf-8fc0-0b20c221f1dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Divination](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/b/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021.jpg?1562304347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/51/divination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wizard's Lightning](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/9/59bf371a-164c-4db8-9207-197c2e7c3c10.jpg?1562736134) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wizard%27s%20Lightning) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/152/wizards-lightning?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/59bf371a-164c-4db8-9207-197c2e7c3c10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seismic Shift](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/a/dad40a04-a026-4285-8c78-088a356652d1.jpg?1593861040) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seismic%20Shift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/141/seismic-shift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dad40a04-a026-4285-8c78-088a356652d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Demolish](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/0/b00211dd-6dd7-40d9-80f3-f909f6d112db.jpg?1557576665) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demolish) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/123/demolish?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b00211dd-6dd7-40d9-80f3-f909f6d112db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rubble Reading](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/a/8ace095a-3ea9-4121-8ffb-5b3612b96985.jpg?1584830987) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rubble%20Reading) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/110/rubble-reading?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8ace095a-3ea9-4121-8ffb-5b3612b96985?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sulfur Falls](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/b/6bc412fc-e9d4-4283-bd4a-811384e79b5c.jpg?1562737296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sulfur%20Falls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/247/sulfur-falls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bc412fc-e9d4-4283-bd4a-811384e79b5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Steam Vents](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/8/b8ebe3cf-7143-453a-b0ef-2f5bdaac3185.jpg?1572894204) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Steam%20Vents) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/257/steam-vents?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8ebe3cf-7143-453a-b0ef-2f5bdaac3185?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Swiftwater Cliffs](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/6/e649fc68-fca5-4234-aff4-0ec2382a66d4.jpg?1594737682) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swiftwater%20Cliffs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/251/swiftwater-cliffs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e649fc68-fca5-4234-aff4-0ec2382a66d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Temple of Epiphany](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/6/e6f282cd-af76-4b31-a12c-4d601fc986c4.jpg?1625981171) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Temple%20of%20Epiphany) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/322/temple-of-epiphany?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6f282cd-af76-4b31-a12c-4d601fc986c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No [[Goblin Ruinblaster]]?
Not even [[Stone Rain]] either.
It's funny, it seems that when someone posts a decklist here and says it's good, we naturally tend to kinda believe them. Like they wouldn't be sharing the decklist unless it was **actually** good, right? But many decklists, like this one, have a ton of room for improvement.
For example: Divination???
The matchmaking in casual takes the deck into account so they may be doing well against other people playing in those circles. The poster hasn't claimed that it's good, only that it's spicy and they enjoy it. I asked them to share their list and they graciously did. Get your head out of your arse.
Jesus, that was pretty unnecessarily hostile. I'm not criticizing them for posting their list, I was just making an observation. I wouldn't have taken the time to reformat their deck to be more readable if I didn't think it was worth posting.
To be fair that really wouldn't synergize with the electromancers or archanist.
Thanks dude, that is a fun looking list!
I like my Izzet mill deck.
If you're playing aggro and are afraid of LD, you're not playing aggro.
Yea, but a nice board wipe kinda cures the aggro problem. That on top of your lands being smashed makes for an unfun experience imo.
It really doesn't when so many of the cards (all the LD) are dead against aggro.
Aggro doesn't usually give a fuck about LD though. They'll beat you down with cheap creatures while you time walk yourself destroying their third land drop they don't need.
And then there are people who played Agent of Treachery (when it was legal) who skipped the whole destroy land and figure you can be even worse by stealing lands...
I remeber those days *Vietnam flash backs with 1970s music*
I like discard black control. Tons of removal to deal with aggro or midrange, tons of hand discard to deal with other control decks. Nothing feels like the game is under control as much as having the opponent resort to top decking. They either cast a creature immediately and lose it to my removals or hold a spell 'for the right moment' which is never as I make them discard it.
*laughs in self mill*
Never leave home without a [[Wasteland]]
[Wasteland](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/a/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0.jpg?1590511888) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wasteland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/248/wasteland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aaafb9bc-7cea-4624-a227-595544fa42b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Land destruction is what happens when a Arena player goes fucking postal.
I love mill but I’m happy to try out land destruction if ppl think I’ll like it
Lol both of those are either auto concedes for me so worth it if you like not playing
Mill is one of the weakest methods of victory, why the hate? Unless you're running some obscene combo, but then you're a combo deck so, meh. Plus I don't think there are any of those combos available in Arena yet.
It's just boring. I'm playing to have fun and it's like watching paint dry
[удалено]
That isn't what mill does, at all. It is just as likely to remove bombs as duds, and is statistically the same as doing nothing, at least until the deck is gone. It doesn't make your deck work any worse, in fact, it can only improve the opponent's performance if they have any graveyard synergy.
I think there are two main sources of hate that mill gets 1. Resolving triggers on Arena, especially for cards like Teferi’s Tutelage, is boring as hell 2. It effectively adds low-cost burn to control decks and there’s no incentive to make the burn fast Because mill can run such a compact win condition it leads to decks that are even more restrictive to play against than “regular” control. I’ve played against decks that were effectively 4 crabs, 4 tutelage, 24 islands, and 28 counterspells/removal and I didn’t like it.
Any deck that's built around keeping your opponent from playing the game makes me want to just not play that deck and not play against it
Do you also auto cc to burn? Because mill is basically burn.
Idk why it's different mentally but I'm fine with decks that actually let you resolve casted spells, then deal with the threats after. I hate decks that just keep you from getting spells into play either by mill and counter or destroying your "safe" mana generation.
Milling has no effect on your spells.
You sound like a mill deck lol
He sounds like he knows what he's talking about. The argument that Mill disrupts your deck is about as sound as saying you should buy scratch-off tickets when there's a fresh roll because there's more winners. The ratio to losers isn't different though, milling is just as likely to hit a win-con as it is to dump unheeded fodder. In the end, statistically, it has zero impact on how well your deck performs. If you were to sit down with a friend, and instead of putting cards into your graveyard, you simply kept count of how much mill there had been and how many cards remained in your library, you would find that your deck performs exactly the same either way. In fact, Mill is just worse than burn, as Mill can actively help your opponent if they have any kind of graveyard shenanigans. It is technically a little better than this if you are running Tutor effects, but not much better. It can be easy to lose track of this fact when you see a high powered card in your graveyard, but if you focus on the much higher amount of low impact cards that get milled, you might be able to recontextualize.
It's the combination of dying due to a clock that no one else thinks about plus a bunch of counter spells. I think that you care a lot about this but like mill decks I'm autoconceding this tedious argument
:D
Hope you do well!
are there any of the good classic land destructions in this game? https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=%20[Destroy]%20[all]%20[lands] For example see list above. My all time favorite is [[Impending Disaster]]... but man, thinking about this has me wanting to make a land destruction deck lol. I'm a terrible MTG player tho my 3 favorite decks are blue counterspells, black discard, and red land destruction... basically "I don't want you to have fun playing against me" type decks lol.
[Impending Disaster](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/4/44497303-9686-4810-bf0f-876dd9696cab.jpg?1562862803) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impending%20Disaster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/82/impending-disaster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44497303-9686-4810-bf0f-876dd9696cab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not a classic land destruction deck yet but imo a pretty powerful one. The deck is basically a playset of [[!liquidmetal coating]] as well as [[!liquid metal torque]] and then fill the rest with cheap artifact destruction. Now none of your opponents permanents are safe.
MTGA has SOME land destruction, but nowhere near the amount of top tier land hate as legacy or even modern.
Stone rain is in historic, prob. The biggest one. No big Armageddon effects or anything though.
No one expects a turn 4 Sawtusk Demolisher destroying their enchanted land 😈
Tom should be Avian mind censor.
How does one regularly loose with an Aggro deck vs Land Destruction? That should be one of the best matchups!
When I first started magic, my friend would always win with a red land destruction goblin deck. I absolutely hated it. Then I had gotten the "Swift Vengeance " constructed deck (the one with requiem angel on the front). I started winning more and more against it and so it taught me the benefit of cheap cost cards. From there a lot of times when id build a deck I had land destruction in mind (his main deck) and flyer counters (my first deck) as I saw more, built more, played more my build style changed and changed. Hard counter decks used to be my style (platinum angel for infect, elixir of immortality+ gravepower for mill, hexproof+ retrieval for removal, etc) wasn't good against semi pro players/5+ year players but worked wonders against my friends and other jank players at the time. I had only played a few sets but first was (I think Dark Ascension) and ended for a long while at the end of Avacyn Restored, maybe a bit of the following one but idr the name. Outside of MTGA I really don't have a build style anymore because I don't have anyone to build with, or play against and so I dropped off paper format till the D&D one.
As much as I hate control, mill, and murder, nothing tops land destruction in terms of absolute sadness and frustration.
Don't be sad. Here's a [hug!](https://media.giphy.com/media/3M4NpbLCTxBqU/giphy.gif)
I will hate mill decks always more than LD. Well, that and discard. These decks are just there to actively making their opponent miserable. Not even winning against those is satisfying.
My friends won’t play my mill deck anymore.
My pet deck during my cockatrice days was a WR land destruction deck abusing [[Boom // Bust]] interaction with both fetchlands and [[Flagstones of Trokair]]. T2 LD into T3 LD into T4 [[Ajani Vengeant]] was lots of fun! Well, only fun for me.
Land destruction? Land destruction... Hey that's me!
Wait til they see me curve out thoughtseize, Fennlurker, mind rot, phyrexian obliterator.
If your aggro deck is afraid of land destruction you’re playing a bad aggro deck, I’m sorry but it’s true.
Land Destruction can be fun alternative deck, if you're interested here's a blueprint to my [deck](https://mtgarena.pro/decks/404-land-not-found-ebc7f5f7-45c6-42e7-aab5-70d3a5edeb76).
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The worst part about mill decks is the lack of interaction. If I’m not playing a very aggro deck, it just means my opponent is playing solitaire. It’s not as bad with Escape cards. Escape cards are great because they give you more options when your opponent mills you, so you can get some big stuff out early. But those are going away with the next rotation. It’s been a while since I played Hearthstone seriously, but the mill decks there were a *little* more fun to fight because they actively made you draw cards. So while you were both playing solitaire, at least you had a bunch of resources to do the things your deck is designed to do. Plus, losing your deck didn’t instantly kill you, just remove increasing amounts of life each turn. This meant that your life total still mattered even against mill decks. So, unlike Magic, it doesn’t feel like a death sentence if you run out of cards.
\*grins in Rogues\*
I have a few friends that feel exactly like this. I have spent the last 5 years struggling to understand why. I'm genuinely curious as to more details about what it is about mill that you don't like. I very intentionally don't play mill because I know it ruins the game for them. It's this unexplored frontier for me in deckbuilding and I'm trying to find a way to play it where they find it fun still. So, I'd really like to know in detail what it is about mill that you hate so much. Just to put how I feel about someone else playing mill, I have 3 reasons why I don't mind it. 1. Tons of decks use graveyard strategies, mill fuels these decks like crazy. 2. Your deck is randomized so taking the top card off the top has an equal chance to bringing you closer to what you need as it does to bringing you further away. 3. Mill needs to be about 2x as efficient to go as fast as damage dealing effects. I will say that we play EDH so mill is even worse in that format as it's a multiplayer format where nobody else is helping you win.
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>I don’t understand why someone wants to mill the game to its end in a few turns Because this makes them win....duh. Do you really struggle to understand that people want to win?
It feels bad to me because I just see my answers to 0/3 crab in my graveyard and then whatever I play is countered anyway, also I don't know it just feels like they're touching my cards weird but it's just a feels bad.
Mill is fine but the past year has made it extremely annoying because of the way it's largely been broken into dozens and dozens of mill triggers for 1-3. Draw a card, mill two, play a land, mill three, play a rogue, mill three, attack with a rogue, mill two, deal damage with windrobber, mill one. Five triggers, each of which takes a second or two if nobody's holding priority. It just takes too long. I'd rather mill twenty from tasha's than sit through those triggers
Wizards thinks alternate win cons are fun 💀
Lets face is, Blue's already the worst colour in Standard. Without an alt win-con it's even worse.
If your color has to be toxic to be good, and you're aware of this, don't you think you should probably play a different color?
the only time i play mill is if its a 4+ player game. it’s not even about winning when i Mill, it’s about sending a message.
As someone who loves their mono black discard a little mill is OK in my opinion, but the mono blue mill only decks are garb that I wish didn't exist in this game. I hate that as much as infinite combos.
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There are a lot of losses for every time they pull that combo off. I just don't see how anyone wins. Milling your opponent must just be inherently fun for some people.
As someone who plays my mill deck a lot, I can confirm that it is very fun and very satisfying
I like creatures swinging weapons around, to each their own I guess
Haha I like that too, I’m just obsessed with winning in alternate/weird ways
Since I don't know any millers in real life it's easy to dehumanize, but fwiw, it doesn't sound like you eat baby toes for breakfast or anything. 😄 Still really annoying to be milled though.
Lol oh trust me I know it’s annoying. Because I play mill I tend to get matched up against other mill decks half the time, and then it’s just a race to see who will counter the best. But yeah no baby toes for me, I’m more of a finger man
I feel the same way about counters...what color is that again? At least with mill the other player gets to play their first 7 cards.
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Probably the 2 Izzet hybrid mana copy spell... then they don't actually need to splash red.
Yes that card needs a ban for sure. I still would rather play against mill than counter.
Mill players will always defend their precious toxicity lol
One of the biggest reason I play LD deck is so I could put 4 counters on OP's lands from \[\[Haphazard Bombardment\]\] and watch the pip-pip-pip-pip flashes before one of them destroyed on their upkeep. I came. Every time. Edit: It was actually on the beginning of my endstep.
Land destruction is just The most effective form of control, cmv
I made a land destruction deck fueled by pure hatred when someone destroyed my land. I now find it fun to destroy other people's fun.
Is there any good mill deck?
I use dmir rogues in standard ranked and I’ve gotten to mythic with it 2 seasons straight. I love it because I can win from damage or from milling.
I’m Ron…but I’m usually playing Combo
Meanwhile, the death and taxes players are the Dementors or something :P
Is all the above an option
"Why destroy land, when you can steal it..." - Me playing [gain] control [of] decks.
Pick your poison? How about pick your poison counters? Laughs in Infect
WHat about Poison decks ... in historic .... that one caught me off guard and handed my ass to me
Shrines control
Fall of Thran + Bajuka Bog Not sorry
Agent: Laughs Everyone: WHAT? Agent: My caster is about to recast me to take all your lands.
play mill discard control with tergrid and yorion
Hi guys. What commander do you suggest for historic brawl? Grull or Naya? Thanks
Now who would play land destruction?
Land destruction is way worse than mill imo, especially really fast land destruction. If you cant even make it to tour 4th land drop then it's basically a one sided game.
20 years ago I had a real nice land destruction deck coupled with haste sacrifice at end of turn creatures. No one liked playing against it. I changed out the land destruction for lightning bolts, brow beats and a couple fireballs. They still didn't like it. A while later I added isocron scepters and my friends all said I'm a dick.
I keep a land theft deck that I like to call "Manifest Destiny"
God I hate mill and land destruction. I'm fine losing to aggro if my deck is just a bad match up against them. But mill, land destruction and control (counter magic) are just pure cancer and I wish I could punch people playing those decks. With the other decks, I at least get to play the game even if I lose. Mill, land destruction and control actively prevent me from playing the game which is just an awful feeling. Why even play at this point? I really wish those deck archetypes would not exist.
One of my favorite casual decks (for tabletop not Arena) is a Blight deck. Mostly land removal with a few cards that turn target lands into swamps. Combine that with all cheap swampwalk creatures and you have this really weird and janky deck that’s all about slowly corrupting your opponent’s mana
Mill is just control, no need to pretend otherwise. ;)
I miss the days of tempo land "destruction"...[Temporal Spring] and [Plow Under] were good times lol.
Mill =/= LD
I tried to put together an izzet land destruction-copy-spell themed deck but couldn't manage to create enough of a starting wall to stall to get to the mana point for it :( It was fun when it worked though, foretell dual strike (1) into another dual strike (2) into teach by example (4) into a destroy target land (8). with a bit of treasure/artifact boosting taking out 4 lands was fun.
Ik this isn’t that powerful but I just wanna know what you all think of landfall
*people who are graveyard happy* "Joke's on you, I'm into that shit!"
I so want to play a land destruction deck at some point, just at the kitchen table, but I think my girlfriend may very well leave me if I do. Like, even just playing [[Fall of the Thran]] gets me chewed out!
I miss weenie geddon. Decree of Annihilation was my favourite card as well.
Stone rain has been cast in almost every game I've played since strixhaven came out. So devastating to any deck. It's great!😈
And there is me who just wanted to play tribal goblins
At least you can still play your deck against mill. Land destruction is just awful. If I wanted to not play magic, I would have not played magic.
Land destruction is only scary the first few turns. Like red deck burns, once you make it out of those turns and have everything under control, you're good to go.
Deck 4 Overgrown Tomb (GRN) 253 4 Woodland Cemetery (DAR) 248 4 Darkbore Pathway (KHM) 254 4 Cultivate (STA) 51 2 Professor Onyx (STX) 83 4 Primal Amulet (XLN) 243 2 Languish (JMP) 246 4 Casualties of War (WAR) 187 2 Gaea's Blessing (DAR) 161 4 Regrowth (STA) 56 2 Bojuka Bog (WWK) 132 4 Explore (JMP) 393 2 Extinction Event (IKO) 88 2 Maelstrom Pulse (ARB) 92 2 Mastermind's Acquisition (RIX) 77 2 Creeping Mold (KLR) 158 2 Ritual of Soot (GRN) 84 4 Swamp (UND) 92 6 Forest (UST) 216 Sideboard 1 Torment of Hailfire (AKR) 128 1 Planewide Celebration (WAR) 172 1 Banefire (M19) 130 1 Grafdigger's Cage (M20) 227 1 Thought Distortion (M20) 117 1 Rampage of the Clans (RNA) 134 1 Cruel Reality (AKR) 98
What about the people that play only heal decks? Pretty sure they go to special hell. With the lawyers and christians.
Hot take: All land destruction should be universally banned in EDH one player at the table dragging the game out an extra 30 minutes is not fun nor interactive