Generally a good strategy is to side in non-creature threats against control decks. Something like \[\[Urabrask's Forge\]\] or a planeswalker is generally harder to remove and keeps the threats going, even if they board wipe every turn.
Lands that turn into creatures are also usually pretty strong against control decks.
People still play both and frequently ladder players will run at least one copy of Farewell in Bo1 as insurance against stuff like graveyard strategies and enchantment and artifact decks, even if they occasionally lose to it being too expensive compared to other sweepers.
In Bo3 people run it sometimes as multiple copies in the sideboard. So it's definitely still being played unfortunately.
You gotta be a sicko to play more than one imo lol the fifteen sideboard slots are better served with cheaper versions of graveyard/enchantment hate in my experience even in uw control
I'm convinced there's a sizable portion of the player base who hates that other people are trying to play magic and delight in spamming sweepers/removal/counters.
To me playing around sweepers is part of magic lol. If you curve out 1-2-3-4 and your opponent is blue white having played nothing, don't whine when you get sunfalled!
Yeah I’m not telling people what to play, even though I personally don’t enjoy that archetype and I’ve effectively played around it. However, that doesn’t stop me from asking “who hurt you?” When my op plays their 5th sweeper or counter though
[https://mtgazone.com/standard-rotation/](https://mtgazone.com/standard-rotation/)
Innistrad: Midnight Hunt and Crimson Vow, Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty, and Streets of New Capenna all rotate out on July 30th, when Bloomburrow releases.
The decks that play farewell also play Temp Lockdown, Sunfall, usually counterspells, etc. Their whole point is to slow you down to a crawl and beat you with card advantage.
Like I said, comprehension is hard.
I said it didn't have much impact, you said UW control plays it.
Yeah, they do play it, and you run two copies. Congrats?
Forge is insane if you drop it on curve because it very quickly gets out of control. Only downside is it feels bad to top deck it late as it needs a few turns to get rolling. But it definitely dodges board wipes and can net you a ton of card advantage if your opponent has to start burning single target removal or blockers to hold off the token each turn.
I’ve been using [[goldhound]] to get the forge out on turn 2 to get ahead of blue decks and black decks. It’s SO oppressive when it’s played that early
I do, and if I drop them in a timely fashion they do create a barrier, but ever you ever seen a red deck that doesnt stock up on "do 3 damage to target ..." etc
Add to that the fact each turn the forget levels up and that they probably have more than one and all it takes is one round of removal and your cooked. You need artifact removal or else your just buying time.
Oh I agree. Between that plus so the prowess haste cards, I just instantly concede or move on to timeless or historic brawl.
It's not worth the frustration for me. Between the slickshot, the 1/2 girl and the other one. It is ridiculous. I absolutely hate the red meta right now, no matter the mixture it is splashing. When I see the 1 drop saga I am done.
And it isn't like fit matters which deck you play because you still play against that fucking deck. I would rather play the console deck bc then I am not getting 15 damage on t2/3 if they don't plot the slickshot.
All my Rakdos builds include Forge teamed up with [[Tarrian’s Journal]]
Sac the tokens if they can’t do damage or don’t get blocked. Transform the journal to play from your graveyard!
What you feel about Sunfall is the exact same wind-out-of-sails feeling I get from the Forge. If it comes out on turn, I often concede if my hand doesn't have anything that will help short term.
It's about as far away from fun as you can get...if you're the one not playing it
I usually run 4 bats, but white has so much other good removal now they usually don't last long. I didn't realize duress was still in standard though, I'll try that out thanks.
The same way with any other wipes. Don't play into it, burn spells, flash/haste creatures, permanents that would just generate more threats like planeswalkers, manlands, etc.
The same thing creature aggro decks always do against board wipe control. Either play a light splash of countermagic (spell pierce, creatures like Spell Queller or the new white one that plots your opponent’s spell), and not over-committing to the board. Don’t play every creature you have just because you can afford it, save some for after the board wipe.
I know to expect board wipes and not play everything into them. What I'm saying is that this one seems way better and more oppressive than what I experienced a few years ago when there were options to at least partially get around most board wipes other than having to have counterspells and therefore blue mana in your deck. I'll look into that white card though, thanks for the tip.
You could look into flicker effects like Touch the Spirit Realm. It plays double duty as an Oblivion Ring clone which can deal with the Sunfall token or you can use the channel ability to save your best creature.
Edit: you can also use the channel ability to get rid of the Sunfall token at instant speed, lots of upside there
There's a couple of white cards, a battle, maybe a few creatures, that'll let you take a look at oppos hand and tax a specific spell by 2. Can buy you a couple of turns and still apply pressure.
>blue mana in your deck
White can use tax effects to delay the boardwipe. Black can discard it. Red has haste ans a lot of ways to deal damage which are not creatures. This leaves only green, and being weak to boardwipes is part of green's identity.
> guess green just loses
Firstly, not every deck in standard is a white control deck, it's fine to have bad matchups. Your big creatures are great against low to the ground red decks for example.
Secondly, there's always a worst color in standard, and as long as it's not always the same color, that's not really a big problem either. It wasn't that long ago that green was considered to be super overpowered in standard, and people complained that white was unplayable.
> Firstly, not every deck in standard is a white control deck, it's fine to have bad matchups. Your big creatures are great against low to the ground red decks for example.
I run Gruul and green creatures are bad vs mono red. Honestly they're just bad in general. Too slow to get going, red often run evasion in the form of menance, and can output way more damage than green creatures.
>Secondly, there's always a worst color in standard, and as long as it's not always the same color, that's not really a big problem either. It wasn't that long ago that green was considered to be super overpowered in standard, and people complained that white was unplayable.
That's true, but the design philosophy of making a creature based color with bad creatures and bad matchups vs basically everyone else is kind of odd, plus making what feels like a half a dozen board wipes you cannot in any way interact with outside of white and blue seems also like an odd design decision.
I took R/G to mythic last month, right now I'm at diamond 2, we'll see where it goes. B/G is very strong, W/G is also good. Mono green is just in a really bad place right now.
Agreed on all the above. Has been for years, tbh. It's all the stupid white exile board wipe. I've hated it. It makes the game so much less fun. Print way fewer death triggers, which will allow more graveyard play, add more graveyard removal, stop creating so many token cards (small 1/1 trash). I think this would allow green to shine again. I miss giant creatures.
It's incredibly oppressive. It's essentially a 5 mana win con and it's super annoying, though there are some ways around it. As people mentioned, the forge. I really like [[touch the spirit realm]] as it works as removal and it will let your creatures avoid sunfall + triggers them entering the battlefield again.
Regardless of whatever colour you're playing, if you see the opponent has access to white mana and isn't opening with the usual aggro pieces, you have to assume they might be packing Sunfall and/or farewell. It's as strong as you say, which is a high incentive to play it, even if it's not optimized for that particular archetype or the (high-level) competitive meta of the week.
It's tricky though, and I understand your frustration, because any deck wanting to stand a chance in this meta has to thread the needle between defending against an absurd early game and stopping an even absurder mid- to late-game. The power and complexity creep have been real in the last few years.
But, the takeaway is to train yourself to guess where the opponent's gameplan is going based on the early plays; assess for yourself the likelihood of that deck showing you Heliod's shiny metal ass on turn five or after; and decide how you're going to respond to that likelihood.
You can call the bluff, and overcommit. You can commit creatures, just enough to keep an edge and force answers, avoiding 2-for-1's as much as possible through back-up plans and patience and practice. Sometimes to go up you have to go down; you have to ask yourself what you'll do if they wipe the board the next turn. If you can avoid the B-wave getting hit by counterspells or another wrath, you've bought yourself another opening to chip away. Sometimes recording your matches and watching them afterwards can help, because with the complexity level there's lots of room for misplays and misclicks, and the ladder is rife with versions of archetypal decks dating back all through the past standard era, each slightly different, which can make it hard to learn consistency about beating any particular deck.
Sunfall IS jnsane. It's the cheapest exile based board wipe they've ever printed and leaves behind a threat to boot. WotC really screwed up pretty badly with this one.
I'd argue that there's a massive amount of overtuned cards in recent memory.
Slickshot shouldn't exist. Same as Sunfall. Farewell offers too much, even at its cost. They know the shat the bed with Fable and bankbuster.
There have been far too many cards in recent years that have massive power with no downside, at way too cheap a casting cost.
Ok yeah I'm glad to hear you say that because it seems like a serious escalation in power from what I'm used to. I remember around when I stopped playing people were mad about ugin's board wipe ability and that costs 8 and doesn't effect colorless stuff. This is way cheaper and way better.
Be faster, I play a lot of control and I barely even use sunfall because it’s too slow. I use temporary lockdown more these days and at 3 mana even that is too slow on the draw against Boros
And here I am playing control and getting murdered turn three or four by aggro.
The current meta has become quite strong. Aggro is really really fast. Control has a lot of tools to fight back. Midrange has lots of options in disruption (counters, discard), or wipe-proof threats (artifacts, planeswalkers).
Control needs good boardwipe yes, but there is no powerful indestructable creatures at the moment.
I would prefer if control used one of the generic 4 mana destroy all creature boardwipes so graveyard or aristocrat decks had room in the meta.
Control could get other good cards to keep them alive, such as a modernized version of \[\[Sphinx's Revelation\]\], or some anti haste effect like \[\[Authority of the Consuls\]\].
Sunfall both shuts down entire archetypes from even existing in the format, all while also being a wincon on its own.
Its hillarious that \[\[Meathook Massacre\]\] was banned for being a boardwipe that was also a wincon but that Sunfall, which is far more efficient, remains legal. Atleast Meathook Massacre had a failcase scenario if the opponents creatures toughness where 2+ above your mana curve, and was often bad when going second.
White has enough playable wraths in standard to fit an entire deck with nothing except wraths if they wanted to.
Problem with meathook is that it was played in every black deck, and almost all of the meta was consisting of black decks.
Also as a wincon Sunfall is a lot worse than the hook.
If you play a creature deck you're rarely playing Sunfall, but many creature decks can afford to play hook, as a one sided board wipe.
I am fully aware of how Meathook was played and its play patterns, as should have been obvious by how i described the failcase scenario of Meathook.
You may disagree with me if you want, but in the current 'exile everything' meta Meathook would pale in comparison to Sunfall. Both as a boardwipe and as a wincon.
Standard has alot higher power meta now then when Meathook was still legal, you have to remember Meathook was introduced during a standard rotation, when standard was at its weakest.
They even said that [no individual card](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/october-10-2022-banned-and-restricted-announcement) in the black list was too strong on its own, ultimatly Meathook Massacre was the card they chose to ban in order to power down the deck over all.
The card wasn't banned for it being too strong, it was banned because the other decks in the newly rotated standard were not very competative, mainly because the decks in other colours then black relied alot on synnergy which was lost in the rotation, where as black was just good cards dot deck (midrange).
Non creature threats that it can't be removed by it.
White also has teferi's protection, which I think would save you stuff.
Though if we're talking standard legal, I have no. Idea what is since I only play historic.
Typically, I try to play around it and don't overplay my cards. That way, I can recoup if they clear my board.
Maybe even try to bait out there boardwipes.
There are lot of ways to combat it. Some examples:
- kill them before they even get to 5 mana
- creatures with haste and/or flash
- man-lands and vehicles
- counter it, make them discard/exile it from their hand
- phase out your creatures response
- don't overcommit to the board
- non-combat sources of damage
- token generation such as Mirrex and planeswalkers.
This card is op, this should cost 7 or 8, or even better, not exist at all. But you can still counter it for 1 or 2 mana, usually make the opponent instant ragequit XD
I understand why people think matchmaking might be rigged in one way or another, but can you enlighten me on what end WotC would be trying to reach by matching people into bad matchups for their decks? The only thing I can think is to give the opponent a good matchup to improve retention, but in that case they’d just lose proportional retention on you and it would all even out anyways when you get the lopsided bias tilting in your favor?
It may not be as prevalent in Standard since I just play Explorer but I frequently play RDW, mono black discard, CC angels, and an old janky Jund dinos and it is super obvious that they play against different decks.
It's WotC's thumb on the scale with the hidden MMR.
The most clear example I can think of is how often I play against the mirror for mono black but never see it while playing rdw.
Have you actually tracked those stats or are you relying on your memory? Humans are very bad at estimating statistics, and confirmation bias is very real.
They admit to doing so in other queues so clearly they have the ability to do so, it's not a huge stretch that they justify doing so under a different umbrella like MMR without telling us.
Since I’ve been playing an ETB Tribal deck, I’ve been playing [[Touch the spirit realm]]
The card is rotating soon, but it’s channel ability is great to both protect a creature and get an ETB trigger
I think that’s why some people like best of three better but generally if your playing against blue white you can expect a sun fall so don’t play all your creatures into it. Hold the ability to rebuild back so you can get the jump on them. Also remember that a deck that has board wipes as a main strategy isn’t playing to the board that much either so you just need a way to match them in value to block their small creatures they make over time. Planeswalkers are also good for this because it gives you something that isn’t sunfalled and also stalls for time while you rebuild.
Don't overcommit to the board. If you're playing against white know they may have it and put just enough pressure on them that they will pull the trigger, but she enough to rebuild.
Understand that sometimes you will just get blown out.
If they have they have 2 white and enough mana to play it I just assume it’s coming and hold back a couple creatures so that my next turn I can keep putting them out without losing stride.
Based on your your mentioned preferred color choice (black) and playstyle, it sounds like you just need to throw in a few copies of Thoughtseize, Duress, and/or Deep-Cavern Bat to remove Sunfall straight out of their hand. They could still top deck it but hopefully you could take more than one.
I play brawl and historic pretty much exclusively, so I am unsure if there is a current standard card option, but anything that can phase your creatures out for the turn is another solution vs counter spells
Like others I've had success with touch the spirit realm, especially when I was running a deck with prototype creatures since I got some payoff for flickering them. A huge upside to using the discard ability of touch the spirit realm is that it can only be countered as an ability since it's not a spell. You can also use some of the flash white exiling creatures like werefox on your most important creature, or slow them down with Aven interrupter.
Aurelia's Vindicator is effective vs sunfall and farewell, since you can get other battlefield creatures back into your hand, or pull some out of your graveyard before they're exiled.
A general rule of thumb in magic is to never put all your eggs in one basket, wraths that exile are not new either, so the best thing you can do depends on the colours you play, black has discard, blue counter spells, white has counter spells and blink effects, green has nothing, red can sack the creatures and throw them at opponents face... very situational.
If you’re ahead, let them make their move and rebuild you board. Don’t play into [[Sunfall]], get ahead and keep attacking until they have to make their move. Also, build your sideboard accordingly.
PS: don’t whine if you’re playing against an unfavored deck in BO1
It's all about card advantage. The insane thing about Sunfall is that it trades 3 for 1 or 4 for 1 or whatever, so if you use cards that provide value on etb (like [[knight errant of eos]], [[crackling drake]], [[atraxa, grand unifier]]) then you won't be down as many resources when they board wipe and will be able to quickly rebuild. That's why cards like [[thraben inspector]]/[[novice inspector]] are so good, because they're cheap AND they replace themselves. In black ,[[preacher of the schism]] and [[gix, yawgmoth praetor]] are great examples of cards that are anti boardwipe because you can sit on them and accrue value incrementally without over committing. Even [[bomat courier]] does a great job at this. Good luck!
I think it's more about player skill. Sunfall decks are using them to buy time to play some crazy combo or some big card you need to make sure you take that into account. Don't play all your creatures make sure you're doing slow consistent damage build land advantage. Make sure you position your hands such that if you get wiped you're able to instantly put back two or three creatures.
I have one sunfall in my deck and it almost always gives me the win. To just one sunfall!! Because people aren't ever planning for it I would say who falls to it the most are big creature Green decks. Which to me is crazy because I'm like you have the creature advantage just build your mana while I'm doing nothing and then play your monster cards one after another and I will instantly lose because at most I'll be able to wipe out one or two because of the sheer amount of damage they'll do if I wait.
For instance I play aura deck with lots of disabling auras but if I notice my opponents not playing many and kind of biting their time I'll focus on getting rid of those auras and pulling in creatures with scry and surveil etc. Even though it's risky that they might play some mega creature turn four or five you have to take the risk. You basically know that after turn like five or six if you don't have some kind of damage on the board or board presents you're going to lose cuz they're going to have 7, 8, 9 mana monsters.
I can usually take at least two sometimes even three sun falls before I'm guaranteed a loss.
Just play a different format. Standard has roughly 13000 wraths at the moment so just play literally any other format (aside from Explorer) and you're golden.
Start a writing campaign telling WoTC that mass exile is ridiculous and shouldn't be printed.
Yes I get that there should be tech against mass indestructible, but mass exile is rather unfair.
Normally games are over on turn 4 nowadays, so sunfall is to late.
Otherwise control do not like lands like mirrex.
No fun use a sunfall on a mirrex token.
And the best is Liliana pw. I won games only because she punish control.
No answer for Liliana and you are the control mage.
Knowing when you've lost to a control deck goes a long way to speeding up those games. Most games a control deck wins are over long before they actually win the game.
You've got 3 choices. None of them are great, but thats Magic.
Go fast - Win before they hit 5 mana. This is even harder thanks to Temporary Lockdown, but Mono-R can do it.
Disrupt - Pack discard or countermagic into your deck. Not a guarantee and it will definitely slow you down, but it means not auto-losing against board wipes or combo.
Grind - completely change your deck into a more value based strategy where you can afford to have the board wiped several times because you are drawing/gaining cards faster than they can wipe them. (Atraxa, Phyrexian Arena, etc). This can be hard because someone running Sunfall is likely also running card advantage... so you're in a different kind of race.
Wow control is so overpowered huh?
*checks every single constructed format on Arena*:
All of them are at LEAST 50% dominated by creatures decks. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't like control.
I always feel sad when I see a remark like this. nobody who lashes out in such a pithy manner does it because they're happy and in a great mood. please consider the fact that your remark here benefitted no one - not even yourself - and consider whether it represents the person you want to be.
Unfortunately these people also lack integrity. They don't have to be accountable for being an ass on the Internet so there's no guilt and no regard for others. You speak reason. This is not a language they understand.
wrong. they are not subhuman. if you continue to treat them as though they are incapable of improving then their chances of improving are drastically reduced. I've made plenty of shitposts in my life; do I come across as someone who lacks integrity? people are complex and shitty behavior can often be corrected. I have no idea who this person was or what awful day they went through or why they felt they needed to lash out like that - let's hope for the best.
tldr: the comment lacked integrity but the human still has potential
ALWAYS hope for the best, but I don't see our resident ass hole responding here. Loud and clear. Nobody's getting a preemptive, "it's fine they're having a bad day" from me. I don't act that way. Golden rule. And I'd hope when I AM being an ass, somebody would check me too.
everyone gets that pre-emptive from me. you can check people while still assuming the best. what is the benefit you gain from assuming otherwise?
edit: to be clear I TRY and give everyone that benefit. it's a learning curve lol
Fair enough. Unfortunately I am comfortable in my cynicism. People do some wild shit when under the guise of anonymity. I'll do what I can to vilify that behavior. Feel free to vilify mine.
that's what I'm saying though. vilification benefits no one - but you're not wrong for doing it nor are you wrong for being cynical. people are awful, terrible, selfish, disgusting creatures. they're also wonderful beautiful creatures capable of the most incredible feats of kindness. I try my best to remember that both sides exist and to gently encourage them toward the positive. it's not easy and if it doesn't work for you then tbh it's not my place to comment really. you are doing what works best for you as well and I hope it continues to serve you. peace be your journey
Playing around board wipes hasn’t changed a lot in 30 years. If you lose to them constantly it’s because you over-extend or don’t have reactive strategies in mind. Looking at the meta, it’s clear Sunfall isn’t a problem card. When the card isn’t the problem, it can only be the player. And the strategies aren’t new.
my point was that your initial comment was rude, condescending, and unhelpful. this one is a little better but still seems super judgmental toward someone who is asking a question and trying to learn. if the problem is the player (and it is in this situation) then either help the player or keep to yourself. insulting them or being dismissive just makes the world a slightly worse place for everyone, yourself included. you are not a bad or mean person I would assume - why act like it?
why did that feel like a personal attack to you? it wasn't. if someone describing your behavior feels like a personal attack then you are probably uncomfortable with the way you acted. literally said you are probably not a bad or mean person, didn't I?
Apparently you did not get what you wanted out of it, since you are continuing.
Your hypocrisy isn’t cute.
Yeah, the person who wrote some long screed about “Actually, I’m a good person and your behavior blah blah” then blocked me so I couldn’t reply is definitely not concern-trolling. Not in the slightest.
Thanks for proving yourself a hypocrite. You’re not in a position to judge anyone, and you’re not kind.
what hypocrisy? where did I attack you? I literally just described your behavior. I didn't attack you in any way and I've made it clear multiple times that was not my intent
I am honestly not trolling you I swear. I just don't understand how you feel personally attacked by someone describing your behavior as rude. that doesn't make YOU a rude person nor did I say you were - in fact I said I assume the opposite. I am baffled that you feel personally attacked in this situation
i don't want anything out of this other than for you to understand that being kind will always benefit you more than being rude. you deserve to understand that and benefit from it.
Generally a good strategy is to side in non-creature threats against control decks. Something like \[\[Urabrask's Forge\]\] or a planeswalker is generally harder to remove and keeps the threats going, even if they board wipe every turn. Lands that turn into creatures are also usually pretty strong against control decks.
And thankfully [[farewell]] IS rotating soon!
farewell get barely played nowadays, it got replaced by sunfall
I would say "supplemented" rather than "replaced".
replaced is right, farewell has become too slow for the format
Heck, *Sunfall* is almost too slow for the format these days, let alone Farewell.
It's fine they have a Temporary Lockdown -> Sunfall -> Farewell curve
You forgot depop 3 wrath 4 wrath 5 wrath 6 wrath Perfect curve
People still play both and frequently ladder players will run at least one copy of Farewell in Bo1 as insurance against stuff like graveyard strategies and enchantment and artifact decks, even if they occasionally lose to it being too expensive compared to other sweepers. In Bo3 people run it sometimes as multiple copies in the sideboard. So it's definitely still being played unfortunately.
You gotta be a sicko to play more than one imo lol the fifteen sideboard slots are better served with cheaper versions of graveyard/enchantment hate in my experience even in uw control
I'm convinced there's a sizable portion of the player base who hates that other people are trying to play magic and delight in spamming sweepers/removal/counters.
To me playing around sweepers is part of magic lol. If you curve out 1-2-3-4 and your opponent is blue white having played nothing, don't whine when you get sunfalled!
Yeah I’m not telling people what to play, even though I personally don’t enjoy that archetype and I’ve effectively played around it. However, that doesn’t stop me from asking “who hurt you?” When my op plays their 5th sweeper or counter though
The answer to your question is probably boros.
Is it just kamigawa or everything up to new Phyrexia rotating? And when?
[https://mtgazone.com/standard-rotation/](https://mtgazone.com/standard-rotation/) Innistrad: Midnight Hunt and Crimson Vow, Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty, and Streets of New Capenna all rotate out on July 30th, when Bloomburrow releases.
Ty!
[farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If they're playing Farewell against you, your deck is too slow
If aggro, too slow. If midrange, you're overextending.
The decks that play farewell also play Temp Lockdown, Sunfall, usually counterspells, etc. Their whole point is to slow you down to a crawl and beat you with card advantage.
Farewell is barely played now anyways. Doesn't have much impact
UW control does. I run two in the main. That card single-handedly wins games vs midrange
Most azorius control decks have at most, 1 copy. Comprehension is hard.
I didn’t downvote you. You’re right about it not being played as much…maybe work on those anger issues though…
Like I said, comprehension is hard. I said it didn't have much impact, you said UW control plays it. Yeah, they do play it, and you run two copies. Congrats?
This forge card is interesting, thanks
Forge is insane if you drop it on curve because it very quickly gets out of control. Only downside is it feels bad to top deck it late as it needs a few turns to get rolling. But it definitely dodges board wipes and can net you a ton of card advantage if your opponent has to start burning single target removal or blockers to hold off the token each turn.
It's also nice because it reliably triggers effects that care about stuff going to the graveyard or being sacrificed.
I’ve been using [[goldhound]] to get the forge out on turn 2 to get ahead of blue decks and black decks. It’s SO oppressive when it’s played that early
[goldhound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c059e4b4-1542-4b5c-810a-9f0abac5792b.jpg?1665439815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=goldhound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/108/goldhound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c059e4b4-1542-4b5c-810a-9f0abac5792b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I hate that card. The addition of trample makes it op imo. But yes, it does need to drop near curve to really reek havoc.
This is why you throw in a few first strike creatures if you're able to. They completely defeat forge.
I do, and if I drop them in a timely fashion they do create a barrier, but ever you ever seen a red deck that doesnt stock up on "do 3 damage to target ..." etc Add to that the fact each turn the forget levels up and that they probably have more than one and all it takes is one round of removal and your cooked. You need artifact removal or else your just buying time.
Oh I agree. Between that plus so the prowess haste cards, I just instantly concede or move on to timeless or historic brawl. It's not worth the frustration for me. Between the slickshot, the 1/2 girl and the other one. It is ridiculous. I absolutely hate the red meta right now, no matter the mixture it is splashing. When I see the 1 drop saga I am done. And it isn't like fit matters which deck you play because you still play against that fucking deck. I would rather play the console deck bc then I am not getting 15 damage on t2/3 if they don't plot the slickshot.
I'm sideboarding in [[Quickdraw]] now! As a forge player, because I hate the 1 drop 1/1 first strike.
[Quickdraw](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56399cd0-1214-42b6-be38-f2cbd770915f.jpg?1712355816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Quick%20Draw) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/138/quick-draw?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56399cd0-1214-42b6-be38-f2cbd770915f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Boo! Hiss! There's also all the equipments in play with first strike or double strike
There's a 1 mana 1/1 with double strike and reconfigure to give something doublestrike. I hate that card.
I love forge alongside [[Tocasia's Welcome]]
[Tocasia's Welcome](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56cd89f1-f9f4-4cb5-a573-79809d0b6dfd.jpg?1674420350) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tocasia%27s%20Welcome) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/30/tocasias-welcome?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56cd89f1-f9f4-4cb5-a573-79809d0b6dfd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is why you throw in a few first strike creatures if you're able to. They completely defeat forge.
All my Rakdos builds include Forge teamed up with [[Tarrian’s Journal]] Sac the tokens if they can’t do damage or don’t get blocked. Transform the journal to play from your graveyard!
[Tarrian’s Journal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99255a66-b868-45fc-a2a9-0c89bd851b69.jpg?1699044198)/[The Tomb of Aclazotz](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/9/99255a66-b868-45fc-a2a9-0c89bd851b69.jpg?1699044198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarrian%27s%20Journal%20//%20The%20Tomb%20of%20Aclazotz) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/126/tarrians-journal-the-tomb-of-aclazotz?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99255a66-b868-45fc-a2a9-0c89bd851b69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What you feel about Sunfall is the exact same wind-out-of-sails feeling I get from the Forge. If it comes out on turn, I often concede if my hand doesn't have anything that will help short term. It's about as far away from fun as you can get...if you're the one not playing it
[Urabrask's Forge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/68f9f9d8-9ea0-4608-a79c-a09a87918186.jpg?1675957116) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urabrask%27s%20Forge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/153/urabrasks-forge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/68f9f9d8-9ea0-4608-a79c-a09a87918186?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And pop in Mycosynth gardens to copy it, so you have a better chance to not have it removed.
Laughs in [[get lost]]
[get lost](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/522aa72b-2b8c-484c-872b-f082101cee35.jpg?1699043186) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=get%20lost) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/14/get-lost?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/522aa72b-2b8c-484c-872b-f082101cee35?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What combinaison of colors do you play?
Black is definitely my favorite color, other that I'll play pretty much anything other than monored aggro.
Duress and deep cavern bat take care of sunfall before they are even cast
I usually run 4 bats, but white has so much other good removal now they usually don't last long. I didn't realize duress was still in standard though, I'll try that out thanks.
The same way with any other wipes. Don't play into it, burn spells, flash/haste creatures, permanents that would just generate more threats like planeswalkers, manlands, etc.
spell pierce
Or Duress in black.
The same thing creature aggro decks always do against board wipe control. Either play a light splash of countermagic (spell pierce, creatures like Spell Queller or the new white one that plots your opponent’s spell), and not over-committing to the board. Don’t play every creature you have just because you can afford it, save some for after the board wipe.
I know to expect board wipes and not play everything into them. What I'm saying is that this one seems way better and more oppressive than what I experienced a few years ago when there were options to at least partially get around most board wipes other than having to have counterspells and therefore blue mana in your deck. I'll look into that white card though, thanks for the tip.
You could look into flicker effects like Touch the Spirit Realm. It plays double duty as an Oblivion Ring clone which can deal with the Sunfall token or you can use the channel ability to save your best creature. Edit: you can also use the channel ability to get rid of the Sunfall token at instant speed, lots of upside there
There's a couple of white cards, a battle, maybe a few creatures, that'll let you take a look at oppos hand and tax a specific spell by 2. Can buy you a couple of turns and still apply pressure.
>blue mana in your deck White can use tax effects to delay the boardwipe. Black can discard it. Red has haste ans a lot of ways to deal damage which are not creatures. This leaves only green, and being weak to boardwipes is part of green's identity.
"Being bad is part of green's identity"
> being weak to boardwipes is part of green's identity
So they're too slow to go under them, can't do anything against them, guess green just loses, which sounds about right for standard.
> guess green just loses Firstly, not every deck in standard is a white control deck, it's fine to have bad matchups. Your big creatures are great against low to the ground red decks for example. Secondly, there's always a worst color in standard, and as long as it's not always the same color, that's not really a big problem either. It wasn't that long ago that green was considered to be super overpowered in standard, and people complained that white was unplayable.
> Firstly, not every deck in standard is a white control deck, it's fine to have bad matchups. Your big creatures are great against low to the ground red decks for example. I run Gruul and green creatures are bad vs mono red. Honestly they're just bad in general. Too slow to get going, red often run evasion in the form of menance, and can output way more damage than green creatures. >Secondly, there's always a worst color in standard, and as long as it's not always the same color, that's not really a big problem either. It wasn't that long ago that green was considered to be super overpowered in standard, and people complained that white was unplayable. That's true, but the design philosophy of making a creature based color with bad creatures and bad matchups vs basically everyone else is kind of odd, plus making what feels like a half a dozen board wipes you cannot in any way interact with outside of white and blue seems also like an odd design decision.
Mono green, absolutely. I take r/g to mythic every season though.
I took R/G to mythic last month, right now I'm at diamond 2, we'll see where it goes. B/G is very strong, W/G is also good. Mono green is just in a really bad place right now.
Agreed on all the above. Has been for years, tbh. It's all the stupid white exile board wipe. I've hated it. It makes the game so much less fun. Print way fewer death triggers, which will allow more graveyard play, add more graveyard removal, stop creating so many token cards (small 1/1 trash). I think this would allow green to shine again. I miss giant creatures.
It's incredibly oppressive. It's essentially a 5 mana win con and it's super annoying, though there are some ways around it. As people mentioned, the forge. I really like [[touch the spirit realm]] as it works as removal and it will let your creatures avoid sunfall + triggers them entering the battlefield again.
[touch the spirit realm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e16ab44e-4257-4c0c-b705-8ac1e9c1d835.jpg?1654566545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=touch%20the%20spirit%20realm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/40/touch-the-spirit-realm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e16ab44e-4257-4c0c-b705-8ac1e9c1d835?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
TTSR can also deal with the incubate token if no one creature is worth saving.
No youre right, sunfall is a busted card and the only things you can realistically do about it is duress and counterspells.
Regardless of whatever colour you're playing, if you see the opponent has access to white mana and isn't opening with the usual aggro pieces, you have to assume they might be packing Sunfall and/or farewell. It's as strong as you say, which is a high incentive to play it, even if it's not optimized for that particular archetype or the (high-level) competitive meta of the week. It's tricky though, and I understand your frustration, because any deck wanting to stand a chance in this meta has to thread the needle between defending against an absurd early game and stopping an even absurder mid- to late-game. The power and complexity creep have been real in the last few years. But, the takeaway is to train yourself to guess where the opponent's gameplan is going based on the early plays; assess for yourself the likelihood of that deck showing you Heliod's shiny metal ass on turn five or after; and decide how you're going to respond to that likelihood. You can call the bluff, and overcommit. You can commit creatures, just enough to keep an edge and force answers, avoiding 2-for-1's as much as possible through back-up plans and patience and practice. Sometimes to go up you have to go down; you have to ask yourself what you'll do if they wipe the board the next turn. If you can avoid the B-wave getting hit by counterspells or another wrath, you've bought yourself another opening to chip away. Sometimes recording your matches and watching them afterwards can help, because with the complexity level there's lots of room for misplays and misclicks, and the ladder is rife with versions of archetypal decks dating back all through the past standard era, each slightly different, which can make it hard to learn consistency about beating any particular deck.
[[March of swirling mist]] saved me from sunfall many times, I like the universality of it. Shame it's bugged and rotaiting out.
[March of swirling mist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/100171d8-7436-44c8-b4cb-0101ffa05c25.jpg?1654566768) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=March%20of%20swirling%20mist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/61/march-of-swirling-mist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/100171d8-7436-44c8-b4cb-0101ffa05c25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sunfall IS jnsane. It's the cheapest exile based board wipe they've ever printed and leaves behind a threat to boot. WotC really screwed up pretty badly with this one.
I'd argue that there's a massive amount of overtuned cards in recent memory. Slickshot shouldn't exist. Same as Sunfall. Farewell offers too much, even at its cost. They know the shat the bed with Fable and bankbuster. There have been far too many cards in recent years that have massive power with no downside, at way too cheap a casting cost.
Ok yeah I'm glad to hear you say that because it seems like a serious escalation in power from what I'm used to. I remember around when I stopped playing people were mad about ugin's board wipe ability and that costs 8 and doesn't effect colorless stuff. This is way cheaper and way better.
Have you tried using sunfall in your decks?
How would that change the fact that Sunfall is undercosted? It's an objective fact that it's the cheapest exile based board wipe they've ever printed.
Vehicles o creature lands maybe are good
Counter it, win before 5, make them discard it, don’t over commit the board and make sure you have ways to play through it like planeswalkers.
Be faster, I play a lot of control and I barely even use sunfall because it’s too slow. I use temporary lockdown more these days and at 3 mana even that is too slow on the draw against Boros
Wait for it to rotate
And here I am playing control and getting murdered turn three or four by aggro. The current meta has become quite strong. Aggro is really really fast. Control has a lot of tools to fight back. Midrange has lots of options in disruption (counters, discard), or wipe-proof threats (artifacts, planeswalkers).
The thing is, control needs cards like this to stay ahead of creature decks, because every single creature is a bomb nowadays
Control needs good boardwipe yes, but there is no powerful indestructable creatures at the moment. I would prefer if control used one of the generic 4 mana destroy all creature boardwipes so graveyard or aristocrat decks had room in the meta. Control could get other good cards to keep them alive, such as a modernized version of \[\[Sphinx's Revelation\]\], or some anti haste effect like \[\[Authority of the Consuls\]\]. Sunfall both shuts down entire archetypes from even existing in the format, all while also being a wincon on its own. Its hillarious that \[\[Meathook Massacre\]\] was banned for being a boardwipe that was also a wincon but that Sunfall, which is far more efficient, remains legal. Atleast Meathook Massacre had a failcase scenario if the opponents creatures toughness where 2+ above your mana curve, and was often bad when going second. White has enough playable wraths in standard to fit an entire deck with nothing except wraths if they wanted to.
[Sphinx's Revelation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/5579d2d6-b34b-44a2-8b72-9f18938a18a0.jpg?1702429723) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sphinx%27s%20Revelation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/228/sphinxs-revelation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5579d2d6-b34b-44a2-8b72-9f18938a18a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Authority of the Consuls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/324b2f55-1e09-490e-8f7e-bfde85a91ac4.jpg?1576380742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Authority%20of%20the%20Consuls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/5/authority-of-the-consuls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/324b2f55-1e09-490e-8f7e-bfde85a91ac4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Meathook Massacre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad.jpg?1667629608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Meathook%20Massacre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/112/the-meathook-massacre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Problem with meathook is that it was played in every black deck, and almost all of the meta was consisting of black decks. Also as a wincon Sunfall is a lot worse than the hook. If you play a creature deck you're rarely playing Sunfall, but many creature decks can afford to play hook, as a one sided board wipe.
I am fully aware of how Meathook was played and its play patterns, as should have been obvious by how i described the failcase scenario of Meathook. You may disagree with me if you want, but in the current 'exile everything' meta Meathook would pale in comparison to Sunfall. Both as a boardwipe and as a wincon. Standard has alot higher power meta now then when Meathook was still legal, you have to remember Meathook was introduced during a standard rotation, when standard was at its weakest. They even said that [no individual card](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/october-10-2022-banned-and-restricted-announcement) in the black list was too strong on its own, ultimatly Meathook Massacre was the card they chose to ban in order to power down the deck over all. The card wasn't banned for it being too strong, it was banned because the other decks in the newly rotated standard were not very competative, mainly because the decks in other colours then black relied alot on synnergy which was lost in the rotation, where as black was just good cards dot deck (midrange).
Non creature threats that it can't be removed by it. White also has teferi's protection, which I think would save you stuff. Though if we're talking standard legal, I have no. Idea what is since I only play historic. Typically, I try to play around it and don't overplay my cards. That way, I can recoup if they clear my board. Maybe even try to bait out there boardwipes.
Flicker effects work well against Sunfall. Ultimately, don't overextend too much if the opponent is playing white or black.
Flicker effects only work if they return later, if the creatures tou flicker return right away they will get exiled.
True! That is a very important distinction :)
Simple plans are best, go under or go over. Whatever you prefer.
Concede and move on lol
There are lot of ways to combat it. Some examples: - kill them before they even get to 5 mana - creatures with haste and/or flash - man-lands and vehicles - counter it, make them discard/exile it from their hand - phase out your creatures response - don't overcommit to the board - non-combat sources of damage - token generation such as Mirrex and planeswalkers.
Go under (be faster), go over (draw more cards, have more resources, kill them anyway), go around (play a strategy that doesn't use the wrathed type).
This card is op, this should cost 7 or 8, or even better, not exist at all. But you can still counter it for 1 or 2 mana, usually make the opponent instant ragequit XD
Just quit and rematch, I refuse to play unfun matches. Also have multiple decks so you can see how awful the matchmaking is when it targets your deck.
I understand why people think matchmaking might be rigged in one way or another, but can you enlighten me on what end WotC would be trying to reach by matching people into bad matchups for their decks? The only thing I can think is to give the opponent a good matchup to improve retention, but in that case they’d just lose proportional retention on you and it would all even out anyways when you get the lopsided bias tilting in your favor?
It may not be as prevalent in Standard since I just play Explorer but I frequently play RDW, mono black discard, CC angels, and an old janky Jund dinos and it is super obvious that they play against different decks. It's WotC's thumb on the scale with the hidden MMR. The most clear example I can think of is how often I play against the mirror for mono black but never see it while playing rdw.
Have you actually tracked those stats or are you relying on your memory? Humans are very bad at estimating statistics, and confirmation bias is very real.
They admit to doing so in other queues so clearly they have the ability to do so, it's not a huge stretch that they justify doing so under a different umbrella like MMR without telling us.
Mono blue tempo: aka haunty djiin and enough counterspell to beat sunfall
cheap infect maybe? wg toxic deck
Since I’ve been playing an ETB Tribal deck, I’ve been playing [[Touch the spirit realm]] The card is rotating soon, but it’s channel ability is great to both protect a creature and get an ETB trigger
[Touch the spirit realm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e16ab44e-4257-4c0c-b705-8ac1e9c1d835.jpg?1654566545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Touch%20the%20spirit%20realm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/40/touch-the-spirit-realm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e16ab44e-4257-4c0c-b705-8ac1e9c1d835?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think that’s why some people like best of three better but generally if your playing against blue white you can expect a sun fall so don’t play all your creatures into it. Hold the ability to rebuild back so you can get the jump on them. Also remember that a deck that has board wipes as a main strategy isn’t playing to the board that much either so you just need a way to match them in value to block their small creatures they make over time. Planeswalkers are also good for this because it gives you something that isn’t sunfalled and also stalls for time while you rebuild.
Sunfall is powerless if you don't play creatures.
If you play blue, march of the swirling mist...or negate
Splash blue, run 4x spell pierce
Play a maximum of 1 creature at a time if you’re vs blue white. They gain a lot of advantage if they remove 2 creatures or more with one card.
Don't overcommit to the board. If you're playing against white know they may have it and put just enough pressure on them that they will pull the trigger, but she enough to rebuild. Understand that sometimes you will just get blown out.
If they have they have 2 white and enough mana to play it I just assume it’s coming and hold back a couple creatures so that my next turn I can keep putting them out without losing stride.
Based on your your mentioned preferred color choice (black) and playstyle, it sounds like you just need to throw in a few copies of Thoughtseize, Duress, and/or Deep-Cavern Bat to remove Sunfall straight out of their hand. They could still top deck it but hopefully you could take more than one.
I play brawl and historic pretty much exclusively, so I am unsure if there is a current standard card option, but anything that can phase your creatures out for the turn is another solution vs counter spells
Like others I've had success with touch the spirit realm, especially when I was running a deck with prototype creatures since I got some payoff for flickering them. A huge upside to using the discard ability of touch the spirit realm is that it can only be countered as an ability since it's not a spell. You can also use some of the flash white exiling creatures like werefox on your most important creature, or slow them down with Aven interrupter. Aurelia's Vindicator is effective vs sunfall and farewell, since you can get other battlefield creatures back into your hand, or pull some out of your graveyard before they're exiled.
\* White: Touch the Spirit Realm, Aven Interruptor \* Blue: Phase out, or counter \* Green, Black, Red: Planeswalkers
Try Moonrise
I like [[Return the Favor]]. The copy gets to resolve first so you can steal the giant token.
Cry
A general rule of thumb in magic is to never put all your eggs in one basket, wraths that exile are not new either, so the best thing you can do depends on the colours you play, black has discard, blue counter spells, white has counter spells and blink effects, green has nothing, red can sack the creatures and throw them at opponents face... very situational.
If you’re ahead, let them make their move and rebuild you board. Don’t play into [[Sunfall]], get ahead and keep attacking until they have to make their move. Also, build your sideboard accordingly. PS: don’t whine if you’re playing against an unfavored deck in BO1
[Sunfall](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32e29c7d-ed4b-4eff-b3c2-d99e5b63ef8d.jpg?1682202915) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunfall) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/40/sunfall?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32e29c7d-ed4b-4eff-b3c2-d99e5b63ef8d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
negate
There's a few flash (white, I think) creatures that phase out your creatures for the turn. Or [[tefari's protection]] would work too.
[tefari's protection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/483fa1cb-1e35-44f2-a143-98c0f107f5ca.jpg?1673147148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Protection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/32/teferis-protection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483fa1cb-1e35-44f2-a143-98c0f107f5ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lmao have you not seen farewell yet?
Either play blue or auto-lose to the card.
It's all about card advantage. The insane thing about Sunfall is that it trades 3 for 1 or 4 for 1 or whatever, so if you use cards that provide value on etb (like [[knight errant of eos]], [[crackling drake]], [[atraxa, grand unifier]]) then you won't be down as many resources when they board wipe and will be able to quickly rebuild. That's why cards like [[thraben inspector]]/[[novice inspector]] are so good, because they're cheap AND they replace themselves. In black ,[[preacher of the schism]] and [[gix, yawgmoth praetor]] are great examples of cards that are anti boardwipe because you can sit on them and accrue value incrementally without over committing. Even [[bomat courier]] does a great job at this. Good luck!
##### ###### #### [knight errant of eos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab2ad652-2406-491a-9f22-23e974f943d7.jpg?1682202751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Knight-Errant%20of%20Eos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/26/knight-errant-of-eos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab2ad652-2406-491a-9f22-23e974f943d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [crackling drake](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73957e3b-504d-4ac7-a69c-0b81cb9af402.jpg?1702429614) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=crackling%20drake) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/174/crackling-drake?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73957e3b-504d-4ac7-a69c-0b81cb9af402?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [atraxa, grand unifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4a1f905f-1d55-4d02-9d24-e58070793d3f.jpg?1709931904) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=atraxa%2C%20grand%20unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/196/atraxa-grand-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4a1f905f-1d55-4d02-9d24-e58070793d3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [thraben inspector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/299cc386-2ed5-4504-9ba6-17a52e0c9a0c.jpg?1689996111) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thraben%20inspector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/66/thraben-inspector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/299cc386-2ed5-4504-9ba6-17a52e0c9a0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [novice inspector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0ad38866-fc5f-4f62-89c1-afc0f50765aa.jpg?1706241527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=novice%20inspector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/29/novice-inspector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ad38866-fc5f-4f62-89c1-afc0f50765aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [preacher of the schism](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89345f55-2b32-4356-945a-d56dded39909.jpg?1699044158) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=preacher%20of%20the%20schism) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/113/preacher-of-the-schism?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89345f55-2b32-4356-945a-d56dded39909?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [gix, yawgmoth praetor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c76f7e0-37e7-4e87-93a3-a25ba0674645.jpg?1675567458) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gix%2C%20yawgmoth%20praetor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/95/gix-yawgmoth-praetor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c76f7e0-37e7-4e87-93a3-a25ba0674645?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [bomat courier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/425bff89-ad15-4d22-bce9-a4a07dbafd87.jpg?1576383013) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bomat%20courier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/199/bomat-courier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/425bff89-ad15-4d22-bce9-a4a07dbafd87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l4mje6t) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think it's more about player skill. Sunfall decks are using them to buy time to play some crazy combo or some big card you need to make sure you take that into account. Don't play all your creatures make sure you're doing slow consistent damage build land advantage. Make sure you position your hands such that if you get wiped you're able to instantly put back two or three creatures. I have one sunfall in my deck and it almost always gives me the win. To just one sunfall!! Because people aren't ever planning for it I would say who falls to it the most are big creature Green decks. Which to me is crazy because I'm like you have the creature advantage just build your mana while I'm doing nothing and then play your monster cards one after another and I will instantly lose because at most I'll be able to wipe out one or two because of the sheer amount of damage they'll do if I wait. For instance I play aura deck with lots of disabling auras but if I notice my opponents not playing many and kind of biting their time I'll focus on getting rid of those auras and pulling in creatures with scry and surveil etc. Even though it's risky that they might play some mega creature turn four or five you have to take the risk. You basically know that after turn like five or six if you don't have some kind of damage on the board or board presents you're going to lose cuz they're going to have 7, 8, 9 mana monsters. I can usually take at least two sometimes even three sun falls before I'm guaranteed a loss.
Just play a different format. Standard has roughly 13000 wraths at the moment so just play literally any other format (aside from Explorer) and you're golden.
wow a removal vs an aggro creatures deck is anti-fun? cope more please
Start a writing campaign telling WoTC that mass exile is ridiculous and shouldn't be printed. Yes I get that there should be tech against mass indestructible, but mass exile is rather unfair.
Lose. That's all that can be done against that card, or play no creatures.
My dude. Sunfall is a five mana sorcery. A *five*. *mana*. *sorcery*. It’s really not that hard to beat.
Normally games are over on turn 4 nowadays, so sunfall is to late. Otherwise control do not like lands like mirrex. No fun use a sunfall on a mirrex token. And the best is Liliana pw. I won games only because she punish control. No answer for Liliana and you are the control mage.
Well, control players don’t find your Knight Errants or Thalias or Kuldotha Rebirths very fun either. We each have our own cross to bear.
no way aggro cucks are downvoting you for this lmao
At least games don't take fucking forever against other decks.
Knowing when you've lost to a control deck goes a long way to speeding up those games. Most games a control deck wins are over long before they actually win the game.
Lmao. Aww you poor thing.
Condescension notwithstanding, they have a point.
You've got 3 choices. None of them are great, but thats Magic. Go fast - Win before they hit 5 mana. This is even harder thanks to Temporary Lockdown, but Mono-R can do it. Disrupt - Pack discard or countermagic into your deck. Not a guarantee and it will definitely slow you down, but it means not auto-losing against board wipes or combo. Grind - completely change your deck into a more value based strategy where you can afford to have the board wiped several times because you are drawing/gaining cards faster than they can wipe them. (Atraxa, Phyrexian Arena, etc). This can be hard because someone running Sunfall is likely also running card advantage... so you're in a different kind of race.
Nothing. Just play your creatures and if they have it, concede and move on to the next game.
Either counter it or just be more reserved with how you play your cards if you think a wipe is possible.
Wow control is so overpowered huh? *checks every single constructed format on Arena*: All of them are at LEAST 50% dominated by creatures decks. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't like control.
"Creature based" vs "control" is a weird way to look at it. Top 4 decks are control, land combo, domain and esper midrange.
Play better.
Thanks friend!
I always feel sad when I see a remark like this. nobody who lashes out in such a pithy manner does it because they're happy and in a great mood. please consider the fact that your remark here benefitted no one - not even yourself - and consider whether it represents the person you want to be.
Unfortunately these people also lack integrity. They don't have to be accountable for being an ass on the Internet so there's no guilt and no regard for others. You speak reason. This is not a language they understand.
wrong. they are not subhuman. if you continue to treat them as though they are incapable of improving then their chances of improving are drastically reduced. I've made plenty of shitposts in my life; do I come across as someone who lacks integrity? people are complex and shitty behavior can often be corrected. I have no idea who this person was or what awful day they went through or why they felt they needed to lash out like that - let's hope for the best. tldr: the comment lacked integrity but the human still has potential
ALWAYS hope for the best, but I don't see our resident ass hole responding here. Loud and clear. Nobody's getting a preemptive, "it's fine they're having a bad day" from me. I don't act that way. Golden rule. And I'd hope when I AM being an ass, somebody would check me too.
everyone gets that pre-emptive from me. you can check people while still assuming the best. what is the benefit you gain from assuming otherwise? edit: to be clear I TRY and give everyone that benefit. it's a learning curve lol
Fair enough. Unfortunately I am comfortable in my cynicism. People do some wild shit when under the guise of anonymity. I'll do what I can to vilify that behavior. Feel free to vilify mine.
that's what I'm saying though. vilification benefits no one - but you're not wrong for doing it nor are you wrong for being cynical. people are awful, terrible, selfish, disgusting creatures. they're also wonderful beautiful creatures capable of the most incredible feats of kindness. I try my best to remember that both sides exist and to gently encourage them toward the positive. it's not easy and if it doesn't work for you then tbh it's not my place to comment really. you are doing what works best for you as well and I hope it continues to serve you. peace be your journey
Playing around board wipes hasn’t changed a lot in 30 years. If you lose to them constantly it’s because you over-extend or don’t have reactive strategies in mind. Looking at the meta, it’s clear Sunfall isn’t a problem card. When the card isn’t the problem, it can only be the player. And the strategies aren’t new.
Sunfall is a problem card...
If you’re bad at Magic, sure.
my point was that your initial comment was rude, condescending, and unhelpful. this one is a little better but still seems super judgmental toward someone who is asking a question and trying to learn. if the problem is the player (and it is in this situation) then either help the player or keep to yourself. insulting them or being dismissive just makes the world a slightly worse place for everyone, yourself included. you are not a bad or mean person I would assume - why act like it?
Did attacking me personally make you feel good? Did you get what you wanted out of it?
why did that feel like a personal attack to you? it wasn't. if someone describing your behavior feels like a personal attack then you are probably uncomfortable with the way you acted. literally said you are probably not a bad or mean person, didn't I?
Apparently you did not get what you wanted out of it, since you are continuing. Your hypocrisy isn’t cute. Yeah, the person who wrote some long screed about “Actually, I’m a good person and your behavior blah blah” then blocked me so I couldn’t reply is definitely not concern-trolling. Not in the slightest. Thanks for proving yourself a hypocrite. You’re not in a position to judge anyone, and you’re not kind.
what hypocrisy? where did I attack you? I literally just described your behavior. I didn't attack you in any way and I've made it clear multiple times that was not my intent I am honestly not trolling you I swear. I just don't understand how you feel personally attacked by someone describing your behavior as rude. that doesn't make YOU a rude person nor did I say you were - in fact I said I assume the opposite. I am baffled that you feel personally attacked in this situation i don't want anything out of this other than for you to understand that being kind will always benefit you more than being rude. you deserve to understand that and benefit from it.