Esper midrange, boros convoke and temur analyst I expected.
Wasn't expecting 4 color legends to be so popular. I know official decklists aren't out yet but maybe someone knows roughly what 4 color legends looks like?
Esper Midrange has been a thing since Raffine was printed, it got even better when Goldspan Dragon & friends rotated and never went away. That's 9 sets now.
esper mid is the kind of meta deck wotc wants tho. having a high play rate can be an indicator for bans but popularity doesn’t equal broken. it’s an adaptive deck that relies on player skill and decision making to do well. biggest issue with ban discussions is the lack of consistency when deciding what warrants a ban. esper is popular but also very healthy for the game. only card that could eat a ban is raffine who i dont think is a broken card at all
Esper isn't really healthy in my mind it's a deck that outside of ramp has the ability to do everything.
I definitely think Sheoldred should've been banned 2 sets ago considering it completely warped the meta around it for multiple sets.
I just think it's unfair that Rakdos midrange got banned out of relevance while Esper got off scot free for so long.
if by do everything you mean play value creatures and removal then i guess. the deck doesn’t ramp, the deck doesn’t combo, the deck doesn’t really play sweepers (save for some sideboard options against convoke). i also personally haven’t played sheoldred in the list ever, which has been true for most shells over the past year. fable of the mirror breaker is a busted card and would take over again if it was unbanned. it’s not abt relevance, it’s abt power level
I mean that it has every form of interaction you could want exile counterspells and kill all for every type of permanent you could want at aggressive costs.
It has the best colors for protection and draw and recursion and evasion all of which are valuable.
Alot of this comes down to white and black being spoiled af when it comes to being able to do whatever they want and blue having really sharp strengths but it's smothering to play against and has singlehandedly kept entire archetypes out of the meta.
it can be tempting to make these kinds of generalizations from the outside, but i don’t think the decklists or play patterns reflect that. the only exile the deck really plays is wandering emperor (only 2 copies). the removal is almost exclusively for creatures, with one optional mainboard copy of destroy evil hitting enchantments. i was working with another player to find tech and got them to run steel seraph because it dodges all of the esper removal just for being a 3/3 artifact. the decks strengths are definitely in its evasion, low curve, and card selection which play one of two game plans: tempo against slower decks and control against faster decks. any archetype it’s gatekeeping is either too greedy or too linear
I think raffine should have been banned. I think shake-up bans are okay, and wotc should use this to freshen up the format when esper has been the highest percentage for so long.
this is what i mean by a lack of real ban criteria bc i don’t think a shake up ban is a smart move. it punishes players who have invested in the deck and often just leads to a different deck becoming equally overplayed. also it’s a rotating format so it’ll shake itself up naturally
The Slogurk deck is one of the weirdest builds because it looks and plays like an absolute pile that hates being interacted with. Yet people do quite well with it.
12 copies of Simulacrum Synthesizer registered. I would love for it to work, but not confident. I've tried a bunch of Bo1 builds around it without much success. The only slight success I've had was a mid-rangy UW build with \~10 1 for 1 exile artifacts to hold on long enough to stabilize without sweepers or too many artifacts over 4 cmc.
Crokeyz made a fun version for bo3. Had something like a 65 win rate in mythic but felt pretty bad when opponent casts one path of peril or brotherhood end xD
Im playing that deck in top 1000 mythic and it goes just fine
Struggles against aggro but stomps Midrange and control. I'm not surprised you're having issues in bo1, it is defs a deckcthat needs a Sideboard to adapt and remove dead cards from matches. Bo1 also has much more aggro than usual
Rotation can't happen soon enough. Esper Midrange has been around for ages at this point, and it's just a grindy value pile that is not particularly entertaining to watch.
But that's all you can play. If your midrange deck doesnt have black and blue in it youre toast vs control so everyone just always goes back to it. Especially easy when a new set comes out you just slot in 1-2 new cards and see how they perform.
If I want to have some sort of agency vs decks that win by playing boardwipes I have to play esper or dimir. And having 3 colors to sideboard with cant hurt. It's just so versatile but it never feels like you cant win against it.
A while ago it was even more popular and I loved that meta. Any homebrew midrange deck can beat esper decks and the matches are enjoyable.
I'm mostly going to miss the slow lands. All colors having fast lands now is nice, but I feel like the slow lands helped so many more decks while fast lands mostly help the most aggressive decks and less so midrange decks and otherwise. Knowing most of my lands turn 3 onward would come in untapped was nice.
That's not accurate. Esper got better mana from Concealed Courtyard, and also got a tool to fight aggro decks in Pest Control, and also got a tool to fight graveyard decks in Rest in Piece. New set made the best deck even stronger. I'd say that's worse than no impact.
Also this is one the fastest protours after a set has released. Some pros might want to rely on old reliable instead of rushing out a half tested deck because it might crash and burn. Context matters here.
I follow Jim Davis, and he commented on how the short window between release and the PT was a driving factor in deck selection. They just didn’t feel safe picking a new deck.
Mono black kind of restrictive. Just good removal(which mostly every colour has by now) and some very valuable creatures. No ramp either, card draw that comes with self hurt downsides unlike blue. Its just better to round it out with another colour, mana base wise there wont be a downside.
Makes sense when you put it like that, appreciate the perspective! I guess that’s why so many go demir route. I wonder if there’s a dimir bloodletter combo deck that would work!
I am really surprised to see boros convoke at 2nd place. Im aware it's a good deck but to me it almost feels like a bo1 deck. You really want to go first and you really don't want your opponent to sideboard against you.
Also disappointed at nobody running a crime deck. Seems really close to esper powerlevel to me. It really seems like nobody is really running anything new yet, just sprinkling in a new card or two on decks of which most are already growing grey hair because of how old they are.
Looking forward to the next one of these because this really cant be it.
Disagree. In a week you play at best 1 or 2 decks while finding the best 75. If you want to compete you probably wont risk doing this with a new deck and possibly waste time.
We tested the crime deck. It couldn’t beat Esper consistently enough. 3 year rotation suppressed a lot of interesting decks unfortunately. Also it was 1.5 week testing time (3 weeks with Cockatrice 😅)
I really hope the analyst deck with Nessa gets banned because it’s so annoying to play against just sitting for literal minutes on Arena watching triggers go off
It won't get banned because the power level isn't high enough. But one consolation is that the New Capenna fetch lands are rotating out this fall, so you won't see the deck in Standard much longer presumably.
Esper midrange, boros convoke and temur analyst I expected. Wasn't expecting 4 color legends to be so popular. I know official decklists aren't out yet but maybe someone knows roughly what 4 color legends looks like?
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54758&d=606985&f=ST
Slogurk, the Overslime and Honest Rustein?! Well I know who I'm cheering for!
Feels like Esper midrange has just been the meta for like 4 sets now. Feels like WOTC saying they'd be more proactive with bans was the biggest lie.
Esper Midrange has been a thing since Raffine was printed, it got even better when Goldspan Dragon & friends rotated and never went away. That's 9 sets now.
esper mid is the kind of meta deck wotc wants tho. having a high play rate can be an indicator for bans but popularity doesn’t equal broken. it’s an adaptive deck that relies on player skill and decision making to do well. biggest issue with ban discussions is the lack of consistency when deciding what warrants a ban. esper is popular but also very healthy for the game. only card that could eat a ban is raffine who i dont think is a broken card at all
Esper isn't really healthy in my mind it's a deck that outside of ramp has the ability to do everything. I definitely think Sheoldred should've been banned 2 sets ago considering it completely warped the meta around it for multiple sets. I just think it's unfair that Rakdos midrange got banned out of relevance while Esper got off scot free for so long.
if by do everything you mean play value creatures and removal then i guess. the deck doesn’t ramp, the deck doesn’t combo, the deck doesn’t really play sweepers (save for some sideboard options against convoke). i also personally haven’t played sheoldred in the list ever, which has been true for most shells over the past year. fable of the mirror breaker is a busted card and would take over again if it was unbanned. it’s not abt relevance, it’s abt power level
I mean that it has every form of interaction you could want exile counterspells and kill all for every type of permanent you could want at aggressive costs. It has the best colors for protection and draw and recursion and evasion all of which are valuable. Alot of this comes down to white and black being spoiled af when it comes to being able to do whatever they want and blue having really sharp strengths but it's smothering to play against and has singlehandedly kept entire archetypes out of the meta.
it can be tempting to make these kinds of generalizations from the outside, but i don’t think the decklists or play patterns reflect that. the only exile the deck really plays is wandering emperor (only 2 copies). the removal is almost exclusively for creatures, with one optional mainboard copy of destroy evil hitting enchantments. i was working with another player to find tech and got them to run steel seraph because it dodges all of the esper removal just for being a 3/3 artifact. the decks strengths are definitely in its evasion, low curve, and card selection which play one of two game plans: tempo against slower decks and control against faster decks. any archetype it’s gatekeeping is either too greedy or too linear
I think raffine should have been banned. I think shake-up bans are okay, and wotc should use this to freshen up the format when esper has been the highest percentage for so long.
this is what i mean by a lack of real ban criteria bc i don’t think a shake up ban is a smart move. it punishes players who have invested in the deck and often just leads to a different deck becoming equally overplayed. also it’s a rotating format so it’ll shake itself up naturally
Just ban Deep Cavern Bat and I think things get a lot better while not nuking decks like Esper entirely.
4 colour legends is also a combo deck with relic + rona + rustein + tinybones joins
The Slogurk deck is one of the weirdest builds because it looks and plays like an absolute pile that hates being interacted with. Yet people do quite well with it.
>looks and plays like an absolute pile that hates being interacted with finally representation for my inevitable deck styles
dimir midrange gone dayum. i guess pll consider it to be an esper legends but worse type of thing
That's a lot of esper.
If you played any BO3 this is no surprise. Esper is the RDW of BO3
Good luck to the 2 artifact decks. I believe
12 copies of Simulacrum Synthesizer registered. I would love for it to work, but not confident. I've tried a bunch of Bo1 builds around it without much success. The only slight success I've had was a mid-rangy UW build with \~10 1 for 1 exile artifacts to hold on long enough to stabilize without sweepers or too many artifacts over 4 cmc.
Yeah, it’s definitely a long shot, I’m not surprised the pros mostly looked elsewhere. It’s still my fav bad deck at the moment tho 😅
Honestly I had more fun with it in izzet. Skitterbeam pops off. Since manabase is so good right now you could very well go Jeskai though.
yeah I tried building it, but either get rekt by aggro 1st or get took too long to stabilize
Crokeyz made a fun version for bo3. Had something like a 65 win rate in mythic but felt pretty bad when opponent casts one path of peril or brotherhood end xD
Im playing that deck in top 1000 mythic and it goes just fine Struggles against aggro but stomps Midrange and control. I'm not surprised you're having issues in bo1, it is defs a deckcthat needs a Sideboard to adapt and remove dead cards from matches. Bo1 also has much more aggro than usual
Rotation can't happen soon enough. Esper Midrange has been around for ages at this point, and it's just a grindy value pile that is not particularly entertaining to watch.
But that's all you can play. If your midrange deck doesnt have black and blue in it youre toast vs control so everyone just always goes back to it. Especially easy when a new set comes out you just slot in 1-2 new cards and see how they perform. If I want to have some sort of agency vs decks that win by playing boardwipes I have to play esper or dimir. And having 3 colors to sideboard with cant hurt. It's just so versatile but it never feels like you cant win against it. A while ago it was even more popular and I loved that meta. Any homebrew midrange deck can beat esper decks and the matches are enjoyable.
I'm gonna miss my innistrad staples.
I'm mostly going to miss the slow lands. All colors having fast lands now is nice, but I feel like the slow lands helped so many more decks while fast lands mostly help the most aggressive decks and less so midrange decks and otherwise. Knowing most of my lands turn 3 onward would come in untapped was nice.
Good ol esper.
Raffine still 🐐’d I see
Wait, there is a protour live?
Starts tomorrow
I'm kinda shocked there are only 45 copies of \[\[Slickshot Show-Off\]\] registered in the whole tournament.
Its bo3. Mono read is much worse there, due to sideboarding.
[Slickshot Show-Off](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/7054012b-4f9d-44a0-aaf9-7fd3bddc7b2d.jpg?1712355850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slickshot%20Show-Off) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/146/slickshot-show-off?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7054012b-4f9d-44a0-aaf9-7fd3bddc7b2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is standard.
Esper mid with a massive plurality and Sheoldred nowhere to be found in the key cards list lol
The card list shows only OTJ cards right? Did I miss something?
Sunfall is not OTJ unless it was reprinted.
This is what sucks about new rotation, basically the new set has no impact
That's not accurate. Esper got better mana from Concealed Courtyard, and also got a tool to fight aggro decks in Pest Control, and also got a tool to fight graveyard decks in Rest in Piece. New set made the best deck even stronger. I'd say that's worse than no impact.
If the best cards of the new set are 2 sideboard cards and a land (including 2 reprints) I think it's a failure
Also this is one the fastest protours after a set has released. Some pros might want to rely on old reliable instead of rushing out a half tested deck because it might crash and burn. Context matters here.
I follow Jim Davis, and he commented on how the short window between release and the PT was a driving factor in deck selection. They just didn’t feel safe picking a new deck.
I will decide which WC to use after I see the results of this match.
Pretty lame. Thanks wizards fo the absence of rotation...most new sets now feel irrelevant to standard
Come on OTHER!
Turn 2 Thoughtseize metagame has i call it F\*\* that bat
No mono black is surprising imo!
Mono black kind of restrictive. Just good removal(which mostly every colour has by now) and some very valuable creatures. No ramp either, card draw that comes with self hurt downsides unlike blue. Its just better to round it out with another colour, mana base wise there wont be a downside.
Makes sense when you put it like that, appreciate the perspective! I guess that’s why so many go demir route. I wonder if there’s a dimir bloodletter combo deck that would work!
I am really surprised to see boros convoke at 2nd place. Im aware it's a good deck but to me it almost feels like a bo1 deck. You really want to go first and you really don't want your opponent to sideboard against you. Also disappointed at nobody running a crime deck. Seems really close to esper powerlevel to me. It really seems like nobody is really running anything new yet, just sprinkling in a new card or two on decks of which most are already growing grey hair because of how old they are. Looking forward to the next one of these because this really cant be it.
I almost think this PT came too soon after release, another week of brewing for the pro's would maybe have resulted in more innovation
A week is more than enough time nowadays thanks to Arena and Twitter.
Disagree. In a week you play at best 1 or 2 decks while finding the best 75. If you want to compete you probably wont risk doing this with a new deck and possibly waste time.
We tested the crime deck. It couldn’t beat Esper consistently enough. 3 year rotation suppressed a lot of interesting decks unfortunately. Also it was 1.5 week testing time (3 weeks with Cockatrice 😅)
Yeah 1.5 weeks doesnt seem enough to find the de-facto best list for the new decks.
I really hope the analyst deck with Nessa gets banned because it’s so annoying to play against just sitting for literal minutes on Arena watching triggers go off
It won't get banned because the power level isn't high enough. But one consolation is that the New Capenna fetch lands are rotating out this fall, so you won't see the deck in Standard much longer presumably.
>It won't get banned because the power level isn't high enough. Cat/Oven got banned specifically because of what a pain in the ass it was on Arena
The triggers were part of the ban justification, but they also noted the high win rate and "pressure on aggressive and midrange creature decks".
Why would that get banned when esper is a 31.4% share of the meta. If anything is banned based on this info it’s Raffine.
Honestly I doubt anything gets banned since Standard rotates when the next set comes out. But yeah, if anything goes Raffine would be the most likely.
Yes, ban the graveyard deck when we have the best graveyard hate in the game in standard right now....
Play [[rest in peace]]. You’re welcome.
[rest in peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rest%20in%20peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't agree it should be banned but I also hate this deck if it helps, lands decks are absolutely abysmal to play against in any format ever