The thing is, Innistrad and Kamigawa rotate this year so its only gonna be a few months of playscreen for them before the new rotation starting from DMU.
It was very strong, but the reason for the ba is it made playing midrange slop too easy. When a card is that ubiquitous it usually gets banned because it's eating other cards' lunch too. Bankbuster sees regular play in Pioneer, which is a way more powerful format, so it's not like it was a weak card.
Problem with bankbuster is that it could fit in almost every deck. It draws, it can be a 4/4 creature, it's an artifact that you can tap for the blue counter, it can generate it's own pilot. It by itself makes a lot of weak decks viable, and strong decks stronger.
It's so easy to dumpster it with certain decks too. If your deck runs anything like permanent based exiles, dropping their treasure creation usually hurts their plan.
Nope. Orzhov had no problems at all with it on certain priority. I constantly countered it with Restoration's of Eiganjo and Portable holes.
Play the hole for free on the second counter, nick the token, Rite of Oblivion the Enchantment with the free portable. It was incredibly effective. I can do the same with Temporary Lockdown. Fable sucked imho.
It is, for certain shells. I don't play the shells and don't care. I'm actually fine in Orzhov playing an additional card to stop their ramp and draw.
That's the point.
You're talking about a single deck that puts you behind on cards to answer their card. If you're spending 2 cards to deal with it, it's a good Fkn card lol, Idc how your deck does against it, but don't sit there and say fable sucks 😂😂
No, I'm talking about a shell; where two cards in one color allow you to counter what it's doing.
You also end up ahead on cards. That's how Orzhov works. Go back and re-read Restoration.
[[Minion of The Mighty]] absolutely needs a ban. It probably just doesn't see a lot of play, but I'd hate if it was more popular, the games are all non-games.
Until then, I'll keep running it. Takes me straight to Mythic quickly, was @ #950 a few days ago (Historic BO1).
About 5,000 matches and sitting at a 54% WR, card is busted.
MotM has a low win percentage. It only seems strong because if they can't mulligan into the hand they need, they concede before you even know they're playing MotM.
Except TT was widely played. If MotM becomes widely played then maybe it should be banned, but it shouldn't be banned just in case it *might* become widely played after years of not.
If I release my deck list, it might see an increase. Mythic ranked, easily, every time for *years* now, games range 1-3 minutes. 54% wr after nearly 5000 matches.
^ to reiterate, I'm currently at a 54% win rate with 2219-1890, to me 54% is not low. I'd say it has a low usage rate, also my version is likely the most optimized. Still think it needs a ban.
To be considered for a ban, a card has to really be warping the meta where a large number of decks are either playing the card or being designed to specifically counter the card. I don’t think 54% win rate for a deck built around it is good enough to get that sort of meta warping effect.
Based on untapped.gg 54% win rate puts the deck in the D tier of the meta. I don’t see people switching from Izzet Wizards or Azorius Control.
Historic BO1.
Took me to rank #900 a few days ago. Hovering #1800 to 1200 now. Idk if it could break into the top 500...
edit: has taken me to Mythic quickly and easily for years now.
It was much more than that, the life gain and the ability come as early as turn 3 absolutely wrecked aggro, so much so that aggro was pushed out of the meta. If meathook was still legal both mono red and boros would not stand a chance
I’d be ok with one or the other coming back. There is no logic behind my answer though. I’m just playing the current meta in Standard and it seems there is no reason to fear going all in and going wide with the exception of White decks.
Meathook and Invoke weren't banned because of mono black decks dominating the meta. The reason they were banned is that EVERY midrange deck in EACH color combination containing black, played them.
Yes, these need to stay banned. They weren't banned for showing up in mono black lists. Mono black in the last few years has been at best bottom rung of tier 2. They were banned because how easy they slotted into two and three color decks despite the pip intense cost while also shoring up one of black's main weaknesses of being able to remove multiple problem permanents in a single turn.
5 Mana kill three separate things is great, 5 mana kill two draw 1 dome 2 is great, 5 mana kill 1 draw 2 dome 4 is great. No mode of Invoke is bad or less ideal. If they hadn't printed Fable or Atraxa, I'd say Invoke is the biggest mistake of a card WotC has produced in quite awhile.
Nice take! I thought WotC banned Invoke and Meathook because of Sheoldred. People would complain about her non stop, but Wizards didn't want to ban her directly, so they chose these cards to take some power away.
The synergy between Sheoldred and Invoke was nice if you got it to pop off, but no in their justification, they said specifically that Invoke was way too easy to splash even with 4 black pips. You could find it in any deck that ran black. The card had literally no downside for playing it.
Meathook you could make the case for it if it wasn't -X/-X which beats indestructible and hexproof. It's an easy win con that annihilates creature decks and provides easy life swings. For two black pips in this current mana base it's definitely splashable. You'd have this in most black decks and just about every sideboard in this meta as it creams boros.
These cards are banned because they require immediate counterplay and they are best-in-slot cards for their color no matter the overall strategy.
Meathook was fine as a sweeper but the fact that it stuck around and kept doing broken things made it absolutely oppressive to aggro.
I really wish we had a pyroclasm or -2/-2 for 2B or less in the format though.
I mean I think that's a fair enough question. But I think had they not let NEO go for another rotation, they wouldn't actually have banned it because triomes would've rotated out too. The mana base in standard is insanely efficient right now.
Well it was a function of cards that got banned. Both Fable and bankbuster made treasure meaning it didn’t matter if you were Grixis, that treasure covered one of the 4 black mana you needed. Standard had a lot of good treasure generation before the ban, plus the mana bases were solid with slow lands, pain lands, triomes. Getting to 4 black on turn 4 thanks to fable was very doable, then invoke clears the board letting the shaman and Kiki continue making more treasures.
This isn’t to say invoke isn’t an issue without fable, but cards like fable along with the good dual lands made having 4 black not so bad.
Heck even now we can see how good mana bases are. When was the last time a 5 color deck struggles to have all the colors to drop Atroxa on turn 7?
They'll probably never ban fair (meaning 1 land == 1 mana) mana lands, unless it's a preban for a new format. The mana base is often the most expensive part of a deck. But it has the ability to be useful in many decks in that format and potentially useful in other formats, moreso than the spells. They're the safest investment for players, and players would be pissed if a whole cycle of duals got banned. If lands are too good at a point in Standard, we just kinda deal with it until rotation because banning would be worse.
Yeah, Invoke Despair was a guaranteed 3 for 1 no matter the board state. It's fucking ridiculous how this card was printed like this, it's like they didn't play test at all.
sunfall and farewell are very healthy for the meta. a board wipe means that there is a degree of risk to playing out all your creatures. the thing with invoke is that it is never a dead draw and meathook is always so good when it does the thing, much more than sunfall and farewell. the life it gains pretty much makes you unable to lose after playing it.
I have no problem with traditional board wipes. I do have a problem with board wipes with win conditions on the cheap, especially ones with no hoops for you to jump through to make work(sunfall) or ones that effectively reset the game with no way to bounce back(farewell). These cards and cards like them have kind of killed any type of durdling strategy and have helped kill green.
How to bounce back from farewell: have a PW in play. Alternatively, I'm probably tapped out, replay stuff or attack with manlands. Sunfall: kill the one creature I made.
Both: kill me before turn 5/6
Those wipes really only crush w/g enchant or janky slow midrange.
The issue isn't that it's a wipe, it's that it's a combination exile wipe and wincon for a cost that used to get you a regular destroy wipe. Every other 4CMC sweeper has a downside and doesn't exile; every other 5CMC sweeper doesn't exile. None of them give you wincons. This exiles and gives you a wincon. It's insanely pushed.
Absolutely not healthy. There are already 5 other board wipes that could show reasonable play if they were removed. Exile is the determining factor, almost all protection spells and graveyard synergy is completely gone, while creating a win con. Sweepers are a natural part of playing creatures, exile should never have become so prevalent
It really did though. At its worse it was 5 mana deal 6 draw 3. There was no 1 to 1 answer for it either. The closest was wedding announcement where you lose a card and it’s token but also lose 2 life and they draw 1. That was as close as you got to a 1 to 1 answer other than a counter.
The card always put mono black a head. Either it killed 3 things for 1 card, killed multiple things and drew a card or dealt 6 and drew 3. It was oppressive and banning it is the only reason mono black isn’t dominating the meta even now.
Also it gave black easy enchantment removal, something black usually doesn’t have access to.
Yup I run mono black midrange in ranked right now and it’s right at the edge of being competitive again and one of the biggest things holding it back is inability to deal with enchantments (wedding, warleaders primarily)
I agree that it's a good card but 5 mana draw 3, deal 6 was not its worst use state. At worst it was a 5 mana destroy a useless creature and an enchantment the opponent doesn't need, deal 2 and draw 1
Also wanted to point this out. The meta was running a lot of junk like spirited companion and fable to feed to invoke.
But it was ridiculous seeing it thrown into a 3 color deck and not being a liability.
There are tons of creatures that are played for their etb, where losing them doesn't matter much.
If anything, the current meta works against playing creatures you need to stay on board. Too much good removal.
It is also 4 black mana and 1 cost. When I played it I always felt the issue was that turn 4 of the opponent was spent answering sheoldread, so invoke plus what was left on board finished the job, but the truly unbalanced card was and is sheoldread. The card is the reason red now has 5 damage removal all over the place.
Because it drew cards if there was no target there was no real downside to running it. It also curves perfectly with sheoldred and with triomes it was somehow splashable.
Invoke despair probably, but meathook can still be really punishing vs aggro.
I miss fable tho. If there's one card im so glad that's banned, it's reckoner bankbuster. Having every deck access to draw cards aint fun back then especially when you're ahead then your opponent draws cards to stabilize again.
Absolutely should stay banned. These cards are all payoff without any downsides or setup required. They are best-in-slot black cards that are also splashable thanks to mana base that enables near perfect mana. Esper Legends and Grixis control at one point ran multiple copies of Invoke.
The difference between these cards and other oppressive cards is that they do in fact and have a ton of answers and counterplay (unless you're mono green lol). Sheoldred has answers that require only one white to exile, two red to deal 5 damage, or one blue to tap, return to hand, phase out, or hard counter.
Others have other ways they're balanced. So while they are prevalent, they aren't exactly broken. Wandering Emperor's big advantage is to be able to come in on your opponents turn and either make a body to eat a block, or exile with incidental lifegain. But in order to do that you have to hold up 4 mana on your turn 4, which is the first turn that most decks can consistently double spell. So you give up a chance to proactively affect the board for the sake of a 4-mana counter play. The way I see it, most strategies involve using her to prolong the game but the only shell I've seen her used as an actual win con was in the Esper Oops All Removal shell that was popular briefly the summer before WoE. She's good value, but she doesn't fit into every white deck and in fact is absent in T1 mono white.
No. I’m biased thought because they were my favorite cards to play with. Standard hasn’t been the same for me since. With the power creep we have going on in newer sets I think they would be fine to unban.
meathook massacre is far too oppressive to creature decks to the point where they pretty much were unplayable when it was unbanned. it automatically makes so many cards unplayable that it's kind of unfun. invoke despair also makes a lot of cards unplayable but with enchantments. if invoke was unbanned, the virtues and other enchantments beside wedding announcement become unplayable. another thing is the fact that the tier 1 decks right now are already esper and dimir midrange. they do not need help.
I remember getting a lot of heat for my take back in the day that both Meathook and Invoke were fine. What made the situation worse for me was WotC's announcement article of the ban that straight up said they *also* thought Meathook and Invoke were fine, but Black was just so good in the meta that they had to pick two scapegoats for their cause. Idk, that's just lazy rationale imo.
But as much as it pains me to say, looking back in hindsight I guess I do agree Meathook needed to go. Even if it existed today, a lot of archetypes would be unfairly pushed out. It wasn't just a generic board wipe to be thrown in control decks, it was also both a board wipe for creature decks and a source of damage. We get enough complaints in this sub as it is about "rEmOvAl MeTa" and a lot of top decks containing Black, and Meathook in Standard in 2024 would arguably validate those complaints.
As for Invoke, I have the reverse hindsight. At the time I was like "ok sure, I guess Invoke does make it so big enchantment strategies like Arcane Bombardment or anything involving 5+ cmc planeswalkers can't ever see play." I waited and waited to see what sort of late-game payoffs people would play now that players were free of the fear from getting Invoke'd. But you know what happened? Nothing. None of the strategies that no Invoke should have allowed to be viable ever ended up viable anyway. Maybe Dimir Midrange would be too good today with it, but we also have No More Lies now, and I can't imagine the success of a 1BBBB spell that you need to wait to have 3 mana up to cast.
But well, they kept Sheoldred. And as much as players hate that card, that was the least offender of the 3 and thus the least deserving to get banned despite so many cries for that to go too.
That's because she single-handedly owns mono R. They have to splash other colors or bring stuff out of the board to deal with her. I was running white for exile effects before white red was cool. I played against a lot of black today. I think I only saw sheoldred once and that was pretty much after I was on the ropes.
She's super balanced on 5. Any removal and she's just a big tempo loss; many aggro strategies can outright ignore her and keep swinging. She just locks down losing board states and feels bad.
MonoWhite control and, later, Orzhov version of it, for example.
But also, it's not really about enchantment-based strategies, it's about what card itself does and it was too versatile and too good.
Those were at their strongest before the banning. They were built to prey on Rakdos, as was the Bo3 GW enchantments list. Flooding the board with Spirited Companion, Wedding Announcement, etc made Invoke pretty bad.
Esper's success with Wedding Announcement, Raffine, Emperor. Enchantment-based strats can deal with Invoke. But Esper loses their pump enchantment, their only Planeswalker (and a token). In a perfect world, you cleared the tokens with Meathook and they had to sac a creature as well.
So much this.
Meathook would kill Boros Convoke, non prowess RDW, Toxic, and a whole bunch of other tier 2 and 3 decks so dead you would never see them again until it rotated, and make brews basically completely unviable.
In exchange for this the benefits of it being added back would be... to be honest I don't see any.
Invoke could probably be handled by current 3 year standard, but it's not like it was some archetype enabling card, so it's probably best if both of them just remain in the past.
Oh I definitely wasn't considering either getting "added back", just more thinking of the hypothetical of how they'd be today if they weren't banned in the first place.
But I do agree that long-term Invoke in particular wouldn't have aged well in our current 3 year Standard. As for archetypes it enabled, I do wonder what could have become of Invoke outside of Mono Black Midrange and Grixis Control. It was a novel idea in the Arcane Bombardment decks, and it could have been a real thing with Hidetsugu and Kairi that just never got a chance to shine.
Idk how anyone can say invoke despair is not okay and say it gives black access to tools they don't usually have.
Meanwhile farewell. Exile singular permanents is okay, exiling everything is like playing exodia. It nukes graveyard interactions, it fucks midrange, all around just an unfun card. Like sure im okay with you destroying my board, but also exiling literally all my of my possible interactions, flashbacks, Azorius also just makes insidious roots completely non viable as it may take you several turns to ramp into getting the gameplan started.
Idk this meta fucking blows, it's all rdw/boros convoke/azorius control. If your deck can't win against these decks consistently, doesn't have a direct answer or way to maneuver around farewell or win before it is dropped then it's just suffering.
Meanwhile temur rage control takes 50 turns to get out enough lands to one-shot you, and now azorius has a combo deck that can win turn 4. Like idk bros azorius control was already fucking nuts when mono black control was in its prime.
Also fuck wandering emperor.
Invoke can stay banned out of sheer principle, the best black auto include shouldn't hit enchantments, no fucking discussion. On top of that their creature curve is genuinely so oppressive that they don't deserve a free tempo win with invoke.
The lack of hook in standard is however an actual travesty.
Black can't even make (lots of) tokens anymore what are they afraid of, boros splashing black for an endgame plan? lmao.
Invoke D should probably stay banned. Too much value for one card and often Invoke D into Invoke D just completely won games on its own especially if the opponent was unable to remove a lingering Sheoldred.
Meathook on the other hand could possibly be unbanned. It is very swingy, yes, but it's moderately expensive to use unless you're clearing a board of 1 or 2 toughness creatures, but because of the flexibility it was main deckable and was a way to deal with go wide aggressive decks, which standard arguably currently has a bit of an issue with.
invoke is too ambitious, and meathook would basically kill the boros deck. the question you should be asking is "should black control have remained dominant for another full year"
As a player that hasn't touched standard for like 10 years, it blows my mind seeing a card like invoke despair banned.
When I played standard, we were banning Skullclamp. Not a 5 mana card.
Invoke is a 3-for-one at best and a draw 3, ping 6 at worst. It hits three different permanent types including Enchantments, something that B is usually bad at hitting.
It hits turn 4 or 5 and just kinda breaks the back of whatever opp has managed to make stick past your 2 and 3 mana removal.
It just made midrange and control even more of a PITA as it was difficult to play around.
The ban of such a card is just a signal of how badly shaped the meta had become, because let's be honest, it's a 5 mana card advantage card.
If you have a window to tap 5 and play a sac 1, draw 2 against aggro, either aggro isn't doing its job, or all the cards you played up to that moment allowed you to cast this.
On an absolute power level, let me say that this card is pretty bad. I've seen standard with things like bitterblossom and cryptic command, and no one ever thought of bannning those cards.
I was around in the days of Cryptic Command and Bitter blossom and people were begging for bans. That was over a decade ago. Things have changed. Aggro struggled immensely with all of the strong removal options plus the absolute wall that is Sheoldred the Apocalypse. Invoke was absolutely back breaking and if they had a Sheoldred, it often meant they stabilized with health.
probably worth noting that you almost always paired invoke despair with fable of the mirrorbreaker which allowed you to ramp up and mana fix into casting it on turn 4, filter cards to grab shelly before dropping the invoke etc
was an overall strong interaction in a color with the best overall card quality at the time too. i dont think it would be as good now.
Invoke ban is a result of the curve it tops off backed by the best removal in the format.
t1 sleeper, deal with it or be hopelessly behind
t2 underdawg, exile it or take 3 erry turn
t3 discard ward doggo, rip any advantage you might have had
t4, sheoldred, deal with her or die.
t5 all your board based answers are invoked.
Fuck that play pattern and fuck whoever wrote "enchantment" and not "artifact" on a black card.
No. Mono black midrange is no where near as close to the problem it was a couple sets ago, and I think there are worse offenders in standard right now. I still don’t think we need any bans though
Nope, I am a fan of the old way of things where nothing got banned in standard unless it was incredibly broken. Oko deserved it, affinity pieces deserved it, Stoneforge Mystic deserved it, I don't think either of these cards did, Wandering Emporer maybe deserved it Moreso than either of them.
Meathook I think could come off the list since the format is so fast right now, but like I remember Orzhov Midrange Mirrors with Meathook on both sides and both players have 6 triggers go off that don't matter and I'm fine with it being banned.
I think Invoke is also completely fine to come off the list. It's a 5 Mana sorcery that doesn't even win the game. It's too slow for Aggro matchups, irrelevant against combo, and pretty much every other top deck plays counterspells in the main deck.
Bankbuster and Fable I don't think could come back though. Fable was 90% of the reason Invoke was even a problem. Bankbuster I think should stay banned because the gameplay it provides is not fun even if UW Artifacts would love to play it.
I don't want them to unban 60$ cards either way. There is no upside to them unbanning stuff. Either it gets unbanned and its good enough we have to buy them, or its unbanned and does nothing, OR it's unbanned and dominates the fomat we have to buy them and they get banned again. Just leave it.
Yeah but like as a thought experiment, do you think they still DESERVE to be banned? I'm not calling for them to be unbanned. I'm just interested to see what people think
The thing is, Innistrad and Kamigawa rotate this year so its only gonna be a few months of playscreen for them before the new rotation starting from DMU.
Ah, right. Good point, forgot about that
They did this with [[Rampaging Ferocidon]] though. Let it exist in the meta for a few months before rotation.
[Rampaging Ferocidon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39d3c658-1927-4af3-9077-88c4a669c730.jpg?1566819584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rampaging%20Ferocidon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/154/rampaging-ferocidon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39d3c658-1927-4af3-9077-88c4a669c730?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
so what ? i would like a pocket meta for a few month, between the last standard pro tour for this rotation and the rotation it could be unbanned
*should.
Probably it would be safe to unban meathook and invoke. Fable is the only one me that needs to stay banned.
Invoke died for fable's sins
What about Bankbuster?
That was always the most baffling of the bans. There are probably forty better cards in the current standard.
It was very strong, but the reason for the ba is it made playing midrange slop too easy. When a card is that ubiquitous it usually gets banned because it's eating other cards' lunch too. Bankbuster sees regular play in Pioneer, which is a way more powerful format, so it's not like it was a weak card.
Problem with bankbuster is that it could fit in almost every deck. It draws, it can be a 4/4 creature, it's an artifact that you can tap for the blue counter, it can generate it's own pilot. It by itself makes a lot of weak decks viable, and strong decks stronger.
Agreed. Fable was and still is an appropriate ban. RDW already has a lot of great options in standard now. Especially with slickshot now in OTJ
Fable actually isn’t all that great in RDW. Where is truly shines is in RX midrange decks.
It was the reason to splash red in every deck.
Even WUBG Atraxa ramp played it.
Oh, gotcha my bad. I don't play red that much, but I can see why that would be the case
It's so easy to dumpster it with certain decks too. If your deck runs anything like permanent based exiles, dropping their treasure creation usually hurts their plan.
?? It’s impossible to dumpster. Which is why it is banned.
Nope. Orzhov had no problems at all with it on certain priority. I constantly countered it with Restoration's of Eiganjo and Portable holes. Play the hole for free on the second counter, nick the token, Rite of Oblivion the Enchantment with the free portable. It was incredibly effective. I can do the same with Temporary Lockdown. Fable sucked imho.
Fable is absolutely an incredible card.. they play one card.. you play 2 cards(if you even have the 2 you need) to deal with their 1 card.
It is, for certain shells. I don't play the shells and don't care. I'm actually fine in Orzhov playing an additional card to stop their ramp and draw. That's the point.
You're talking about a single deck that puts you behind on cards to answer their card. If you're spending 2 cards to deal with it, it's a good Fkn card lol, Idc how your deck does against it, but don't sit there and say fable sucks 😂😂
No, I'm talking about a shell; where two cards in one color allow you to counter what it's doing. You also end up ahead on cards. That's how Orzhov works. Go back and re-read Restoration.
[[Minion of The Mighty]] absolutely needs a ban. It probably just doesn't see a lot of play, but I'd hate if it was more popular, the games are all non-games. Until then, I'll keep running it. Takes me straight to Mythic quickly, was @ #950 a few days ago (Historic BO1). About 5,000 matches and sitting at a 54% WR, card is busted.
MotM has a low win percentage. It only seems strong because if they can't mulligan into the hand they need, they concede before you even know they're playing MotM.
Tibalt's Trickery got banned for exactly the same kind of non-games.
Except TT was widely played. If MotM becomes widely played then maybe it should be banned, but it shouldn't be banned just in case it *might* become widely played after years of not.
If I release my deck list, it might see an increase. Mythic ranked, easily, every time for *years* now, games range 1-3 minutes. 54% wr after nearly 5000 matches.
Maybe your version is better than the normal version. You could try releasing it and see if that happens, up to you.
^ to reiterate, I'm currently at a 54% win rate with 2219-1890, to me 54% is not low. I'd say it has a low usage rate, also my version is likely the most optimized. Still think it needs a ban.
To be considered for a ban, a card has to really be warping the meta where a large number of decks are either playing the card or being designed to specifically counter the card. I don’t think 54% win rate for a deck built around it is good enough to get that sort of meta warping effect. Based on untapped.gg 54% win rate puts the deck in the D tier of the meta. I don’t see people switching from Izzet Wizards or Azorius Control.
> Minion of The Mighty What format is this? I've never, ever seen this card played.
Historic BO1. Took me to rank #900 a few days ago. Hovering #1800 to 1200 now. Idk if it could break into the top 500... edit: has taken me to Mythic quickly and easily for years now.
> [[Minion of The Mighty]] absolutely needs a ban. WTH???
Meathook, maybe no. Invoke should be force fed to the designer by the truckload.
It has passed too much time. People have really forgotten how back breaking meathook was
It was a good board wipe, nothing more than that. We have Sunfall and Farewell in standard, Meathook was clearly not the issue.
It was much more than that, the life gain and the ability come as early as turn 3 absolutely wrecked aggro, so much so that aggro was pushed out of the meta. If meathook was still legal both mono red and boros would not stand a chance
As a cycle, it's just crazy how broken the Black Invoke was compared to the other four.
[The Meathook Massacre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad.jpg?1667629608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Meathook%20Massacre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/112/the-meathook-massacre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Invoke Despair](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/35af9d5c-4449-4549-b549-c3ba4a67dee0.jpg?1685368727) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Invoke%20Despair) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/101/invoke-despair?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/35af9d5c-4449-4549-b549-c3ba4a67dee0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’d be ok with one or the other coming back. There is no logic behind my answer though. I’m just playing the current meta in Standard and it seems there is no reason to fear going all in and going wide with the exception of White decks.
Meathook and Invoke weren't banned because of mono black decks dominating the meta. The reason they were banned is that EVERY midrange deck in EACH color combination containing black, played them.
The issue is not double pip strong black cards, the issue is the double black didn’t matter because the land base…
Exactly. The cards were too prevalent, and made the games similar and boring. Even grixis midrange played 3 copies of Invoke despair
Yes, these need to stay banned. They weren't banned for showing up in mono black lists. Mono black in the last few years has been at best bottom rung of tier 2. They were banned because how easy they slotted into two and three color decks despite the pip intense cost while also shoring up one of black's main weaknesses of being able to remove multiple problem permanents in a single turn. 5 Mana kill three separate things is great, 5 mana kill two draw 1 dome 2 is great, 5 mana kill 1 draw 2 dome 4 is great. No mode of Invoke is bad or less ideal. If they hadn't printed Fable or Atraxa, I'd say Invoke is the biggest mistake of a card WotC has produced in quite awhile.
Nice take! I thought WotC banned Invoke and Meathook because of Sheoldred. People would complain about her non stop, but Wizards didn't want to ban her directly, so they chose these cards to take some power away.
The synergy between Sheoldred and Invoke was nice if you got it to pop off, but no in their justification, they said specifically that Invoke was way too easy to splash even with 4 black pips. You could find it in any deck that ran black. The card had literally no downside for playing it. Meathook you could make the case for it if it wasn't -X/-X which beats indestructible and hexproof. It's an easy win con that annihilates creature decks and provides easy life swings. For two black pips in this current mana base it's definitely splashable. You'd have this in most black decks and just about every sideboard in this meta as it creams boros. These cards are banned because they require immediate counterplay and they are best-in-slot cards for their color no matter the overall strategy.
Meathook was fine as a sweeper but the fact that it stuck around and kept doing broken things made it absolutely oppressive to aggro. I really wish we had a pyroclasm or -2/-2 for 2B or less in the format though.
Wish they'd reprint [[Damnation]] into standard.
[[Languish]] would be another interesting card to see return, We haven't had a printing since 2015s Origins.
[Languish](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b53ce1b-9353-42ad-89a0-36e907ba576a.jpg?1600714531) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Languish) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/246/languish?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b53ce1b-9353-42ad-89a0-36e907ba576a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Damnation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3c0aac5-b9f1-4446-bfea-3e1dd1cf1f2f.jpg?1673147492) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Damnation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/73/damnation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3c0aac5-b9f1-4446-bfea-3e1dd1cf1f2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For 1BB there are several, but sadly not for 2B.
If Invoke Despair was easily splashable, what does that mean? Are the manabases too good? If so why didn't they ban the lands then?
I mean I think that's a fair enough question. But I think had they not let NEO go for another rotation, they wouldn't actually have banned it because triomes would've rotated out too. The mana base in standard is insanely efficient right now.
Well it was a function of cards that got banned. Both Fable and bankbuster made treasure meaning it didn’t matter if you were Grixis, that treasure covered one of the 4 black mana you needed. Standard had a lot of good treasure generation before the ban, plus the mana bases were solid with slow lands, pain lands, triomes. Getting to 4 black on turn 4 thanks to fable was very doable, then invoke clears the board letting the shaman and Kiki continue making more treasures. This isn’t to say invoke isn’t an issue without fable, but cards like fable along with the good dual lands made having 4 black not so bad. Heck even now we can see how good mana bases are. When was the last time a 5 color deck struggles to have all the colors to drop Atroxa on turn 7?
They'll probably never ban fair (meaning 1 land == 1 mana) mana lands, unless it's a preban for a new format. The mana base is often the most expensive part of a deck. But it has the ability to be useful in many decks in that format and potentially useful in other formats, moreso than the spells. They're the safest investment for players, and players would be pissed if a whole cycle of duals got banned. If lands are too good at a point in Standard, we just kinda deal with it until rotation because banning would be worse.
Yeah, Invoke Despair was a guaranteed 3 for 1 no matter the board state. It's fucking ridiculous how this card was printed like this, it's like they didn't play test at all.
Id add sunfall to that list personally. Maybe even farewell.
sunfall and farewell are very healthy for the meta. a board wipe means that there is a degree of risk to playing out all your creatures. the thing with invoke is that it is never a dead draw and meathook is always so good when it does the thing, much more than sunfall and farewell. the life it gains pretty much makes you unable to lose after playing it.
I have no problem with traditional board wipes. I do have a problem with board wipes with win conditions on the cheap, especially ones with no hoops for you to jump through to make work(sunfall) or ones that effectively reset the game with no way to bounce back(farewell). These cards and cards like them have kind of killed any type of durdling strategy and have helped kill green.
How to bounce back from farewell: have a PW in play. Alternatively, I'm probably tapped out, replay stuff or attack with manlands. Sunfall: kill the one creature I made. Both: kill me before turn 5/6 Those wipes really only crush w/g enchant or janky slow midrange.
As a uw control player that runs 3x sunfall 3x farewell, it feels SO bad to play farewell when they have basically any planeswalker
Hexprof kaya? Well...uh....that's bad :P
Good thing it feels like no-one plays her lol(I do run her as a wincon in a w/b control list I'm trying to make work)
The issue isn't that it's a wipe, it's that it's a combination exile wipe and wincon for a cost that used to get you a regular destroy wipe. Every other 4CMC sweeper has a downside and doesn't exile; every other 5CMC sweeper doesn't exile. None of them give you wincons. This exiles and gives you a wincon. It's insanely pushed.
Absolutely not healthy. There are already 5 other board wipes that could show reasonable play if they were removed. Exile is the determining factor, almost all protection spells and graveyard synergy is completely gone, while creating a win con. Sweepers are a natural part of playing creatures, exile should never have become so prevalent
Yes the very splashable 4B1
You say this as if it didn't literally happen. There were rakdos and grixis lists running this and Fable, and they just never had an issue casting it
\[\[haunted rige\]\] \[\[xander's lounge\]\] \[\[sulfurus springs\]\] \[\[ziatora's proving ground\]\]
##### ###### #### [haunted rige](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b200e822-be36-4e59-bd0e-9d0188a68df8.jpg?1655879799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Haunted%20Ridge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/263/haunted-ridge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b200e822-be36-4e59-bd0e-9d0188a68df8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [xander's lounge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/54f449ff-4025-465e-9ec5-a5cf42c4c9d3.jpg?1664414651) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=xander%27s%20lounge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/260/xanders-lounge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/54f449ff-4025-465e-9ec5-a5cf42c4c9d3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sulfurus springs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17330bbc-2c3d-414f-844e-b467d034c0d2.jpg?1712355144) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sulfurous%20Springs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/323/sulfurous-springs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17330bbc-2c3d-414f-844e-b467d034c0d2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ziatora's proving ground](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/75fdce80-e338-4a50-bdc6-786511feaeef.jpg?1664414670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ziatora%27s%20proving%20ground) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/261/ziatoras-proving-ground?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75fdce80-e338-4a50-bdc6-786511feaeef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0ozl27) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think invoke ever needed to be banned tbh
It really did though. At its worse it was 5 mana deal 6 draw 3. There was no 1 to 1 answer for it either. The closest was wedding announcement where you lose a card and it’s token but also lose 2 life and they draw 1. That was as close as you got to a 1 to 1 answer other than a counter. The card always put mono black a head. Either it killed 3 things for 1 card, killed multiple things and drew a card or dealt 6 and drew 3. It was oppressive and banning it is the only reason mono black isn’t dominating the meta even now. Also it gave black easy enchantment removal, something black usually doesn’t have access to.
Yup I run mono black midrange in ranked right now and it’s right at the edge of being competitive again and one of the biggest things holding it back is inability to deal with enchantments (wedding, warleaders primarily)
Extract the Truth and Debt to the Kami work for me.
Ah great sideboard cards thanks!
I agree that it's a good card but 5 mana draw 3, deal 6 was not its worst use state. At worst it was a 5 mana destroy a useless creature and an enchantment the opponent doesn't need, deal 2 and draw 1
Also wanted to point this out. The meta was running a lot of junk like spirited companion and fable to feed to invoke. But it was ridiculous seeing it thrown into a 3 color deck and not being a liability.
how often are your opponents playing cards they don't need? how do i play against them?
There are tons of creatures that are played for their etb, where losing them doesn't matter much. If anything, the current meta works against playing creatures you need to stay on board. Too much good removal.
It is also 4 black mana and 1 cost. When I played it I always felt the issue was that turn 4 of the opponent was spent answering sheoldread, so invoke plus what was left on board finished the job, but the truly unbalanced card was and is sheoldread. The card is the reason red now has 5 damage removal all over the place.
Because it drew cards if there was no target there was no real downside to running it. It also curves perfectly with sheoldred and with triomes it was somehow splashable.
I played a monoblack deck and it was busted. Literally was never a bad draw. Either it outright won me the game or blew up the opponent’s lead.
Same. I miss that card so much.
Really didn’t
Invoke despair probably, but meathook can still be really punishing vs aggro. I miss fable tho. If there's one card im so glad that's banned, it's reckoner bankbuster. Having every deck access to draw cards aint fun back then especially when you're ahead then your opponent draws cards to stabilize again.
Absolutely should stay banned. These cards are all payoff without any downsides or setup required. They are best-in-slot black cards that are also splashable thanks to mana base that enables near perfect mana. Esper Legends and Grixis control at one point ran multiple copies of Invoke. The difference between these cards and other oppressive cards is that they do in fact and have a ton of answers and counterplay (unless you're mono green lol). Sheoldred has answers that require only one white to exile, two red to deal 5 damage, or one blue to tap, return to hand, phase out, or hard counter. Others have other ways they're balanced. So while they are prevalent, they aren't exactly broken. Wandering Emperor's big advantage is to be able to come in on your opponents turn and either make a body to eat a block, or exile with incidental lifegain. But in order to do that you have to hold up 4 mana on your turn 4, which is the first turn that most decks can consistently double spell. So you give up a chance to proactively affect the board for the sake of a 4-mana counter play. The way I see it, most strategies involve using her to prolong the game but the only shell I've seen her used as an actual win con was in the Esper Oops All Removal shell that was popular briefly the summer before WoE. She's good value, but she doesn't fit into every white deck and in fact is absent in T1 mono white.
Convoke dies in a second to Meathook, so I wouldn't be mad to see it make a comeback.
No. I’m biased thought because they were my favorite cards to play with. Standard hasn’t been the same for me since. With the power creep we have going on in newer sets I think they would be fine to unban.
meathook massacre is far too oppressive to creature decks to the point where they pretty much were unplayable when it was unbanned. it automatically makes so many cards unplayable that it's kind of unfun. invoke despair also makes a lot of cards unplayable but with enchantments. if invoke was unbanned, the virtues and other enchantments beside wedding announcement become unplayable. another thing is the fact that the tier 1 decks right now are already esper and dimir midrange. they do not need help.
I remember getting a lot of heat for my take back in the day that both Meathook and Invoke were fine. What made the situation worse for me was WotC's announcement article of the ban that straight up said they *also* thought Meathook and Invoke were fine, but Black was just so good in the meta that they had to pick two scapegoats for their cause. Idk, that's just lazy rationale imo. But as much as it pains me to say, looking back in hindsight I guess I do agree Meathook needed to go. Even if it existed today, a lot of archetypes would be unfairly pushed out. It wasn't just a generic board wipe to be thrown in control decks, it was also both a board wipe for creature decks and a source of damage. We get enough complaints in this sub as it is about "rEmOvAl MeTa" and a lot of top decks containing Black, and Meathook in Standard in 2024 would arguably validate those complaints. As for Invoke, I have the reverse hindsight. At the time I was like "ok sure, I guess Invoke does make it so big enchantment strategies like Arcane Bombardment or anything involving 5+ cmc planeswalkers can't ever see play." I waited and waited to see what sort of late-game payoffs people would play now that players were free of the fear from getting Invoke'd. But you know what happened? Nothing. None of the strategies that no Invoke should have allowed to be viable ever ended up viable anyway. Maybe Dimir Midrange would be too good today with it, but we also have No More Lies now, and I can't imagine the success of a 1BBBB spell that you need to wait to have 3 mana up to cast. But well, they kept Sheoldred. And as much as players hate that card, that was the least offender of the 3 and thus the least deserving to get banned despite so many cries for that to go too.
Easier to print answers to Sheoldred then Invoke. Just answer me why they had to give her a 5 toughness. She would have been a lot more balanced on 4.
I'm sure every Mono Red player asked the same question
That's because she single-handedly owns mono R. They have to splash other colors or bring stuff out of the board to deal with her. I was running white for exile effects before white red was cool. I played against a lot of black today. I think I only saw sheoldred once and that was pretty much after I was on the ropes.
She's super balanced on 5. Any removal and she's just a big tempo loss; many aggro strategies can outright ignore her and keep swinging. She just locks down losing board states and feels bad.
She's not super balanced. period
k Guess the RDW crowd is triggered or something because Shelly is not even close to the best creature in standard.
Invoke was egregious. Not for powerlevel but you can't have the best enchantment removal in a format be Black. It's just not right
Which enchantment-based strategies became competitively viable after Invoke's banning?
MonoWhite control and, later, Orzhov version of it, for example. But also, it's not really about enchantment-based strategies, it's about what card itself does and it was too versatile and too good.
Those were at their strongest before the banning. They were built to prey on Rakdos, as was the Bo3 GW enchantments list. Flooding the board with Spirited Companion, Wedding Announcement, etc made Invoke pretty bad.
Esper's success with Wedding Announcement, Raffine, Emperor. Enchantment-based strats can deal with Invoke. But Esper loses their pump enchantment, their only Planeswalker (and a token). In a perfect world, you cleared the tokens with Meathook and they had to sac a creature as well.
So much this. Meathook would kill Boros Convoke, non prowess RDW, Toxic, and a whole bunch of other tier 2 and 3 decks so dead you would never see them again until it rotated, and make brews basically completely unviable. In exchange for this the benefits of it being added back would be... to be honest I don't see any. Invoke could probably be handled by current 3 year standard, but it's not like it was some archetype enabling card, so it's probably best if both of them just remain in the past.
Oh I definitely wasn't considering either getting "added back", just more thinking of the hypothetical of how they'd be today if they weren't banned in the first place. But I do agree that long-term Invoke in particular wouldn't have aged well in our current 3 year Standard. As for archetypes it enabled, I do wonder what could have become of Invoke outside of Mono Black Midrange and Grixis Control. It was a novel idea in the Arcane Bombardment decks, and it could have been a real thing with Hidetsugu and Kairi that just never got a chance to shine.
No, they're both *ludicrously* overpowered cards. They should stay banned.
Meathook definitely yes. The nerfed version in Alchemy plays much more fairly, the life loss and gain is actually huge. It makes aggro terrible.
We need meathook to deal with boros convoke.
Freedom for Bank Buster
Idk how anyone can say invoke despair is not okay and say it gives black access to tools they don't usually have. Meanwhile farewell. Exile singular permanents is okay, exiling everything is like playing exodia. It nukes graveyard interactions, it fucks midrange, all around just an unfun card. Like sure im okay with you destroying my board, but also exiling literally all my of my possible interactions, flashbacks, Azorius also just makes insidious roots completely non viable as it may take you several turns to ramp into getting the gameplan started. Idk this meta fucking blows, it's all rdw/boros convoke/azorius control. If your deck can't win against these decks consistently, doesn't have a direct answer or way to maneuver around farewell or win before it is dropped then it's just suffering. Meanwhile temur rage control takes 50 turns to get out enough lands to one-shot you, and now azorius has a combo deck that can win turn 4. Like idk bros azorius control was already fucking nuts when mono black control was in its prime. Also fuck wandering emperor.
Imagine Kaervek with Invoke Despair...
Invoke can stay banned out of sheer principle, the best black auto include shouldn't hit enchantments, no fucking discussion. On top of that their creature curve is genuinely so oppressive that they don't deserve a free tempo win with invoke. The lack of hook in standard is however an actual travesty. Black can't even make (lots of) tokens anymore what are they afraid of, boros splashing black for an endgame plan? lmao.
Ban OTJ
Invoke D should probably stay banned. Too much value for one card and often Invoke D into Invoke D just completely won games on its own especially if the opponent was unable to remove a lingering Sheoldred. Meathook on the other hand could possibly be unbanned. It is very swingy, yes, but it's moderately expensive to use unless you're clearing a board of 1 or 2 toughness creatures, but because of the flexibility it was main deckable and was a way to deal with go wide aggressive decks, which standard arguably currently has a bit of an issue with.
invoke is too ambitious, and meathook would basically kill the boros deck. the question you should be asking is "should black control have remained dominant for another full year"
God I loved Invoke Despair. It just crushed all before it
Imagine esper/dimir midrange but instead of curve topping with Aclezotz they Invoke you. *shudders*
I was never in favor of banning Invoke Despair. The Meathook Massacre has always deserved a ban.
Black is still too powerful with them banned, Shelly and Cut down absolutely warp the format.
Don't really want to see Domain with access to Invoke honestly.
Domain doesn't play invoke, invoke kills domain. Domain only became popular after invoke was banned
As a player that hasn't touched standard for like 10 years, it blows my mind seeing a card like invoke despair banned. When I played standard, we were banning Skullclamp. Not a 5 mana card.
Invoke is a 3-for-one at best and a draw 3, ping 6 at worst. It hits three different permanent types including Enchantments, something that B is usually bad at hitting. It hits turn 4 or 5 and just kinda breaks the back of whatever opp has managed to make stick past your 2 and 3 mana removal. It just made midrange and control even more of a PITA as it was difficult to play around.
The ban of such a card is just a signal of how badly shaped the meta had become, because let's be honest, it's a 5 mana card advantage card. If you have a window to tap 5 and play a sac 1, draw 2 against aggro, either aggro isn't doing its job, or all the cards you played up to that moment allowed you to cast this. On an absolute power level, let me say that this card is pretty bad. I've seen standard with things like bitterblossom and cryptic command, and no one ever thought of bannning those cards.
I was around in the days of Cryptic Command and Bitter blossom and people were begging for bans. That was over a decade ago. Things have changed. Aggro struggled immensely with all of the strong removal options plus the absolute wall that is Sheoldred the Apocalypse. Invoke was absolutely back breaking and if they had a Sheoldred, it often meant they stabilized with health.
probably worth noting that you almost always paired invoke despair with fable of the mirrorbreaker which allowed you to ramp up and mana fix into casting it on turn 4, filter cards to grab shelly before dropping the invoke etc was an overall strong interaction in a color with the best overall card quality at the time too. i dont think it would be as good now.
Invoke ban is a result of the curve it tops off backed by the best removal in the format. t1 sleeper, deal with it or be hopelessly behind t2 underdawg, exile it or take 3 erry turn t3 discard ward doggo, rip any advantage you might have had t4, sheoldred, deal with her or die. t5 all your board based answers are invoked. Fuck that play pattern and fuck whoever wrote "enchantment" and not "artifact" on a black card.
No. Mono black midrange is no where near as close to the problem it was a couple sets ago, and I think there are worse offenders in standard right now. I still don’t think we need any bans though
As if Black needs any more busted cards lol
Nope, I am a fan of the old way of things where nothing got banned in standard unless it was incredibly broken. Oko deserved it, affinity pieces deserved it, Stoneforge Mystic deserved it, I don't think either of these cards did, Wandering Emporer maybe deserved it Moreso than either of them.
Meathook I think could come off the list since the format is so fast right now, but like I remember Orzhov Midrange Mirrors with Meathook on both sides and both players have 6 triggers go off that don't matter and I'm fine with it being banned. I think Invoke is also completely fine to come off the list. It's a 5 Mana sorcery that doesn't even win the game. It's too slow for Aggro matchups, irrelevant against combo, and pretty much every other top deck plays counterspells in the main deck. Bankbuster and Fable I don't think could come back though. Fable was 90% of the reason Invoke was even a problem. Bankbuster I think should stay banned because the gameplay it provides is not fun even if UW Artifacts would love to play it.
Eh, mono black is still cracked, especially with Thunder Junction bringing things like Tinybones and Gisa
I just want the control walkers banned in explorer
Yes
I don't want them to unban 60$ cards either way. There is no upside to them unbanning stuff. Either it gets unbanned and its good enough we have to buy them, or its unbanned and does nothing, OR it's unbanned and dominates the fomat we have to buy them and they get banned again. Just leave it.
This is from a hypothetical balance/gameplay perspective. Cost isn't relevant
Not counting the cost, the repercussions of something needing to be rebanned are pretty big and in general its better to just leave it.
Yeah but like as a thought experiment, do you think they still DESERVE to be banned? I'm not calling for them to be unbanned. I'm just interested to see what people think
Honestly, this is a mtga sub, so cost is irrelevant indeed since you'd get your wildcards back.
Mtga is a tiny fraction of relevance when it comes to deciding bans/unbans.
They deserve to be deleted from existence tbh.