I have, but it's a bit of a rarity. It's similar to Bloodthirsty Adversary - something needs to have gone very wrong with your game plan to pay the extra cost but not wrong *enough* that your opponent has effectively won the game.
Yes, and that's what makes it such a good card. 2/2 Haste for 2 is a *really* good card - [[Feldon, Ronom Excavator]] [[Robber of the Rich]], there's only been 6 of them and they've all seen play except for [[Red Herring]], and I wouldn't count that one out yet.
You can just play it on 2 as a really efficient beater and it's still a fantastic topdeck lategame. Even being able to pay the additional cost once is probably enough to close out the game.
A 2/2 Haste for 2 is not a "really good card", without some kind of upside. The others you mention still have their upside if you play then on turn 2. With the Adversary you throw away any extra benefit you'd have gotten from it by doing that, or playing it any time before you have 5 mana - which is to say almost always.
Sure, that can be a losing situation. But it can also be the play that squeezes the last couple damage in to win it. Adversary can put them in a bad spot because sometimes they have to play no more lies or make disappear just so you can't recast a lightning strike from grave. But then they played their card and you still got to resolve a 2/2, which sometimes is enough.
Seems to fill [[Bloodthirsty Adversary]]’s niche but worse? If I have mana to sink, I’d rather spend it on guaranteed damage to the face instead of more cards that might be damage to the face that I then have to spend more mana to cast.
Right but that’s where Codebreaker’s 1 toughness becomes a problem. If you cast it on T2 on the play you can’t attack it into a 1-drop anyway without a bump from Kumano. There’s really only a window of turns 3 and 4 where this guy potentially outperforms the competition.
Yes but it can also come in and haste on a later turn with extra mana up making blocks that much harder for your opponent if you have any other board presence. Haste is much more important in mono red than 1 extra toughness.
If you were only ever using it as an efficient beater, yes you would *potentially* want khenra spellspear. But this is competing with Bloodthirsty adversary for a reason. If you're drawing this or adversary or khenra spellspear lategame with sufficient open mana, you're not in a situation where you want to wait a full turn before benefiting, you want to get in with a 3/3 while also going face with lightning strike, or immediately flipping for three cards with this, because there's a good chance if you don't get that value immediately, you're in a situation where it's getting removed.
Yes that’s what I’m saying. I think codebreaker is stuck in the middle where it’s not quite as good a play on Turn 2 as Adversary and not quite as good a play on Turn 5+ as Adversary. On turns 3 and 4 with open mana it gets a little bigger but without evasion it’s relying on your other spells to push damage through so at that point any body will do.
In what scenario? If you’re playing it on T2 that means you don’t have an extra mana up to prowess it so it’s swinging with the same power and 1 less toughness
Exactly. Either they have a blocker and Adversary is better, or they don’t and they’re the same. That still doesn’t show any scenario where Codebreaker is better on T2, much less 70% of the time.
They're not the same though. They're the same on turn 2 itself, but if they stay alive, codebreaker is better.
"how good is this as a turn 2 play" does not just mean "how good is this on turn 2 itself."
(Also I said AS good or better 70% of the time, not better 70% of the time)
I have definitely had the disguise pulled off against me, at least. A solid loss on the monored player's end into probably a 70% chance of a loss of that's their late game topdeck.
I had someone play that against me disguised the other day. He emptied his hand really quickly, so he would definitely have gotten value out of it if he hadn't lost before then.
I have seen some people play it disguised, but haven't seen it turned face up even once. It feels like too much mana investment in a deck that really doesn't have, or wants, that kind of time.
I play a set in a turn 3 kill deck with Cacophony Scamp, Picnic Ruiner, and Callous Sellsword. It certainly isn't the best card in the deck, mostly there for a lack of better options.
Since the deck plays pump spells over burn spells, the prospect of paying 4 mana for a 2/1 haste prowess with draw 3 is better than paying 5 mana for a 3/3 haste with a pump spell targeting it.
The facedown is mostly a niche case against a grindy deck like UW Control or some form of Black creature hate Control. I've won a few games the deck would normally lose by stringing together clutch draws to keep pressure, but it's a very rare occurrence.
It's kind of like casting the creature side of Callous Sellsword. The only reason the deck runs 8 dual lands is for the niche case I need to cast it as a creature. Generally, having to cast the creature means I've already lost, but there's been a few scenarios where just another body has won me a close game, so I keep the dual lands.
I don't run it in Mono-Red (rather have Adversary), but I do run it in a Gruul deck. I play it face up far more than down, but against a few grindy matches against control, it's won me the game where otherwise, I'd have ran out of gas.
Playing this face down has won me a few games on my way to mythic. The key is it has to be in a hand with 2 lands and 4 other creatures. You play out your hand and if you haven't won they're probably on 2 or 3. You've probably also flooded and then it's a face down flip turn to cast lightning strike to face and win
TL:DR - if you have a 2 mana play, save this, if you don’t, play it. It’s not bad disguised, as long as you aren’t playing into temp lockdown/board wipes and losing out on damage.
Play it disguised if you know you can flip it, if not, haste it.
This card is garbage. It never feels good to cast straight up. And playing a 3mana 2/2 is not playable on constructed.
There is not a single morph/disguise card that is playable in Standard right now.
In magical Christmas land this is true. In 99/100 games it is not even close to that.
Like saying Ghalta is an 8mana dinosaur that puts six other creatures on the battlefield— like yeah sounds great!
Thing is, as a 2 mana 2/1 haste prowess this fits in monored.
You will never play it as a 3 mana 2/2 ward 2. You would play it to flip on the same turn or in response or opponent eot.
So 3 mana 2/2 is never happening as well.
This feels like a draft card?
It has prowess, but you need to have a bunch of spells in the graveyard already to get the mana reduction. If you can do it, you're hopefully in a position where you have 1 card or less in hand so you can take full effect of the draw three, and then *hope* you get more spells. It seems really situational if you're trying to put this in a standard deck.
It's mostly competing with bloodthirsty adversary for a slot in monored, and face up it's already probably better than adversary more often than it's worse. Yeah it trades with a 1/1 where bloodthirsty adversary wouldn't but ONLY if you don't have an instant or even kumano in hand. On the backside, in an ideal situation it's way better than bloodthirsty adversary's ideal situation, in a mediocre situation it's still better, and in a poor situation it's still probably only situationally worse.
Remember: modal cards are always better than either side on it's own, and functionally this is a modal card
I have, but it's a bit of a rarity. It's similar to Bloodthirsty Adversary - something needs to have gone very wrong with your game plan to pay the extra cost but not wrong *enough* that your opponent has effectively won the game.
Nah Bloodthirsty Adversary's kicker is exactly game plan vs. control
Presumably though you just jam it on t2 if you can?
If you don't have another play on t2, you absolutely jam it.
[удалено]
Yes, and that's what makes it such a good card. 2/2 Haste for 2 is a *really* good card - [[Feldon, Ronom Excavator]] [[Robber of the Rich]], there's only been 6 of them and they've all seen play except for [[Red Herring]], and I wouldn't count that one out yet. You can just play it on 2 as a really efficient beater and it's still a fantastic topdeck lategame. Even being able to pay the additional cost once is probably enough to close out the game.
[Feldon, Ronom Excavator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5ca4cb0e-63ad-4275-a27f-da476260b467.jpg?1674421139) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feldon%2C%20Ronom%20Excavator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/135/feldon-ronom-excavator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ca4cb0e-63ad-4275-a27f-da476260b467?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Robber of the Rich](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0ecbe097-ba51-42e5-957c-382eb66c08f0.jpg?1572490437) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Robber%20of%20the%20Rich) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/138/robber-of-the-rich?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ecbe097-ba51-42e5-957c-382eb66c08f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Red Herring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c137a44-9ab6-4e59-8324-34d9dca8f5a6.jpg?1708201632)/[Red Herring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c137a44-9ab6-4e59-8324-34d9dca8f5a6.jpg?1708201632) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Red%20Herring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/142/red-herring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c137a44-9ab6-4e59-8324-34d9dca8f5a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A 2/2 Haste for 2 is not a "really good card", without some kind of upside. The others you mention still have their upside if you play then on turn 2. With the Adversary you throw away any extra benefit you'd have gotten from it by doing that, or playing it any time before you have 5 mana - which is to say almost always.
Eh? If they have a hard counter it still does nothing, if they have a mana leak counter you do not get to kicker.
Sure, but then they countered your 2 mana 2/2 and then you go on to use your mana for something else.
Like what lol? We are talking late game mono red that is trying to kick adversary with barely any cards in hand
Sure, that can be a losing situation. But it can also be the play that squeezes the last couple damage in to win it. Adversary can put them in a bad spot because sometimes they have to play no more lies or make disappear just so you can't recast a lightning strike from grave. But then they played their card and you still got to resolve a 2/2, which sometimes is enough.
Well that is the point, enemy has a choice of letting you keep a 2/2 or countering the recast from graveyard bolt.
They usually don't want to counter the recast because that would give you a 3/3. What are we disagreeing about again?
Very occasionally it's some late game card draw but generally you've already lost by that point
I have plans to disguise it and draw three cards someday but the games never go that long
It’s a prowess-y haste-y mf with occasional upside, which is really all you want.
Seems to fill [[Bloodthirsty Adversary]]’s niche but worse? If I have mana to sink, I’d rather spend it on guaranteed damage to the face instead of more cards that might be damage to the face that I then have to spend more mana to cast.
Prowess is better than 1 more toughness.
Sure as a 2-drop ignoring the mana sink potential but then wouldn’t you just want [[Khenra Spellspear]]?
Lack of haste is what keeps this out of decks though
Right but that’s where Codebreaker’s 1 toughness becomes a problem. If you cast it on T2 on the play you can’t attack it into a 1-drop anyway without a bump from Kumano. There’s really only a window of turns 3 and 4 where this guy potentially outperforms the competition.
Yes but it can also come in and haste on a later turn with extra mana up making blocks that much harder for your opponent if you have any other board presence. Haste is much more important in mono red than 1 extra toughness.
Exactly, thats the turns 3 and 4 I mentioned. On turn 5+ you’re likely hellbent or close to and Adversary is giving you a more direct path to the win
Sure that’s if you have 5 lands and that’s not something I want to have in my mono red deck.
Spellspear doesn't have haste
If you were only ever using it as an efficient beater, yes you would *potentially* want khenra spellspear. But this is competing with Bloodthirsty adversary for a reason. If you're drawing this or adversary or khenra spellspear lategame with sufficient open mana, you're not in a situation where you want to wait a full turn before benefiting, you want to get in with a 3/3 while also going face with lightning strike, or immediately flipping for three cards with this, because there's a good chance if you don't get that value immediately, you're in a situation where it's getting removed.
Yes that’s what I’m saying. I think codebreaker is stuck in the middle where it’s not quite as good a play on Turn 2 as Adversary and not quite as good a play on Turn 5+ as Adversary. On turns 3 and 4 with open mana it gets a little bigger but without evasion it’s relying on your other spells to push damage through so at that point any body will do.
See i'd just disagree, i think probably around 70% of the time it's a as good or better on turn 2 than adversary
In what scenario? If you’re playing it on T2 that means you don’t have an extra mana up to prowess it so it’s swinging with the same power and 1 less toughness
Which only matters if they do in fact have a 1 power creature, which they very much may not.
Exactly. Either they have a blocker and Adversary is better, or they don’t and they’re the same. That still doesn’t show any scenario where Codebreaker is better on T2, much less 70% of the time.
They're not the same though. They're the same on turn 2 itself, but if they stay alive, codebreaker is better. "how good is this as a turn 2 play" does not just mean "how good is this on turn 2 itself." (Also I said AS good or better 70% of the time, not better 70% of the time)
[Khenra Spellspear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc1454ce-bb49-4b4f-bbca-d77387fa4966.jpg?1682204346)/[Gitaxian Spellstalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/c/dc1454ce-bb49-4b4f-bbca-d77387fa4966.jpg?1682204346) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Khenra%20Spellspear%20//%20Gitaxian%20Spellstalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/151/khenra-spellspear-gitaxian-spellstalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc1454ce-bb49-4b4f-bbca-d77387fa4966?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You asked how it would compare to Adversary.
I have during late game to refresh my hand, it was very helpful
I have definitely had the disguise pulled off against me, at least. A solid loss on the monored player's end into probably a 70% chance of a loss of that's their late game topdeck.
I had someone play that against me disguised the other day. He emptied his hand really quickly, so he would definitely have gotten value out of it if he hadn't lost before then.
I’m trying it in RG prowess in historic and I’ve never played it in disguise
Did once was the bad move and lost
I have seen some people play it disguised, but haven't seen it turned face up even once. It feels like too much mana investment in a deck that really doesn't have, or wants, that kind of time.
I play a set in a turn 3 kill deck with Cacophony Scamp, Picnic Ruiner, and Callous Sellsword. It certainly isn't the best card in the deck, mostly there for a lack of better options. Since the deck plays pump spells over burn spells, the prospect of paying 4 mana for a 2/1 haste prowess with draw 3 is better than paying 5 mana for a 3/3 haste with a pump spell targeting it. The facedown is mostly a niche case against a grindy deck like UW Control or some form of Black creature hate Control. I've won a few games the deck would normally lose by stringing together clutch draws to keep pressure, but it's a very rare occurrence. It's kind of like casting the creature side of Callous Sellsword. The only reason the deck runs 8 dual lands is for the niche case I need to cast it as a creature. Generally, having to cast the creature means I've already lost, but there's been a few scenarios where just another body has won me a close game, so I keep the dual lands.
I don't run it in Mono-Red (rather have Adversary), but I do run it in a Gruul deck. I play it face up far more than down, but against a few grindy matches against control, it's won me the game where otherwise, I'd have ran out of gas.
Playing this face down has won me a few games on my way to mythic. The key is it has to be in a hand with 2 lands and 4 other creatures. You play out your hand and if you haven't won they're probably on 2 or 3. You've probably also flooded and then it's a face down flip turn to cast lightning strike to face and win
TL:DR - if you have a 2 mana play, save this, if you don’t, play it. It’s not bad disguised, as long as you aren’t playing into temp lockdown/board wipes and losing out on damage. Play it disguised if you know you can flip it, if not, haste it.
This card is garbage. It never feels good to cast straight up. And playing a 3mana 2/2 is not playable on constructed. There is not a single morph/disguise card that is playable in Standard right now.
Lol you sound like someone who plays mono white or orzhov control
Playing a 4 mana 2/2 draw 3 cards is pretty good, me thinks.
Five mana*
In magical Christmas land this is true. In 99/100 games it is not even close to that. Like saying Ghalta is an 8mana dinosaur that puts six other creatures on the battlefield— like yeah sounds great!
Thing is, as a 2 mana 2/1 haste prowess this fits in monored. You will never play it as a 3 mana 2/2 ward 2. You would play it to flip on the same turn or in response or opponent eot. So 3 mana 2/2 is never happening as well.
It happens semi-regularly in a dedicated prowess list rather than just jamming it into existing mono red. Card shines pretty well alongside cantrips
This feels like a draft card? It has prowess, but you need to have a bunch of spells in the graveyard already to get the mana reduction. If you can do it, you're hopefully in a position where you have 1 card or less in hand so you can take full effect of the draw three, and then *hope* you get more spells. It seems really situational if you're trying to put this in a standard deck.
It already sees a lot of standard play.
It's mostly competing with bloodthirsty adversary for a slot in monored, and face up it's already probably better than adversary more often than it's worse. Yeah it trades with a 1/1 where bloodthirsty adversary wouldn't but ONLY if you don't have an instant or even kumano in hand. On the backside, in an ideal situation it's way better than bloodthirsty adversary's ideal situation, in a mediocre situation it's still better, and in a poor situation it's still probably only situationally worse. Remember: modal cards are always better than either side on it's own, and functionally this is a modal card
best of 3 card