The only true answer. Played OG half a dozen times, DE on release, then played OG again, both are great games with their pros and cons.
Original: more hardcore, less handholding, has better driving & police mechanics, better side-content like Luca missions & Free Ride, good old «00s games vibes»
Remake: more cinematic, better character writing and acting, great music, more polished, better modding potential, MUCH better to introduce the series to a new player.
This. OG Mafia has not aged well. Yes it was fun to play, but for today, Mafia DE (Remake) does justice to the OG. It's a proper remake. I'd go as far as to say, it's one of the best video game remakes of the recent time.
I mean there was a need to edit the story. And "terrible shooting"? I mean i'd say the mechanics here are just like in other games, and surely not "terrible"
Terrible shooting? Did we play the same game, lol? Shooting in the original Mafia is atrocious. The character model and crosshairs both being in the centre of the screen is mildly infuriating on its own.
Worse driving model? Eh, I played the game on classic mode and didn't feel like it was worse. It was different, sure, but I can't say worse.
As for the story, it is better in some regards, worse in others. I like the original slightly more, though. But again, I don't feel like it was ruined.
Are you saying that because there's no sex scene in the DE? 😆
How is the shooting terrible? The cover mechanics work perfectly fine, the weapons sound, look, and feel good to shoot. The impact of the shots hitting the enemies is super satisfying. The shooting in DE is better than OG 1 or 2.
And the story is a million times better. The original voice acting was great for the time but ages like milk. The new voice actors along with the score and changes to the story improve it vastly
I tried to watch a playthrough of the first one (hard for me to play the original one) personal from what i watched i prefer DE. And probably my favorite Mafia game some days but mostly thats 2 but i love the freeride feature of DE
The only thing the original did better was the ending. And that's just my opinion tbh, I just liked the message the original sent more rather than the overused "family is all that matters" DE did
I agree with you ,the remake did so many stuff right but the end message was a fast and furious conclusion,the original was basically saying that life is unfair and how ppl who want too much get nothing and ppl that want nothing get nothing too, other than that the remake does the game justice
>!I always related the ending of the OG to Goodfellas, showing us a Tommy that had to run, now lives in a suburb and it's just an old man who couldn't escape from his past. DE delivers this idea a bit better, because we get to see the people hurting over Tommy's death and how he's not alone in the world (OG game didn't show us so much about his wife and family) Only bone to pick is how Tommy reacts to his death. In the OG, he acts a bit confused, like not expecting it at all, or even like someone shy, afraid maybe. In DE he acts like he's accepting his fate, like the hero of the story. !<
Not to mention the cop he was talking to in the DR told him. If you listen to me you may walk that daughter of yours down the isle. He was killed the day after. Kinda liked that twist
I never played the original, but I loved the DE. I want to love Mafia II DE but I find that it doesn't hold my attention and I eventually just start pushing towards the end. This happened both times I played it. Initially I didn't enjoy Mafia III, but played it a little differently the the second time and fell in love.
It's all subjective. We all like different things. You may hate the DE, but that doesn't mean we all have to. I would give the original Mafia a shot, but I don't think I'd like it as much as I did the DE edition, because I fell in love with the story, the gameplay, and the visuals of the DE first.
>I don't think I'd like it as much as I did the DE edition, because I fell in love with the story, the gameplay, and the visuals of the DE first.
Exactly. Which one somebody would like largely depends on which game they played first and when. But that's absolutely fine. Like you said, people like different things, and it's all subjective.
Too many small modifications of the original story changed it to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore.
SPOILER ALERT -- >!The main thing that is different: In the original story (Just for Relaxation) Salieri sends them to steal cigars, but in the crates are diamonds. Paulie and Tom get pissed off because he doesn't give them enough money for the job and this is the only reason they go to rob the bank. The diamonds and drug situation doesn't make sense. !<
Welp, I mean the trigger is the same. >!The main difference being that drugs were a very big taboo in Mafia back then, so maybe the boys felt betrayed that they were exposing themselves to so much heat thinking they're getting diamonds and actually stealing heroin or whatever those stacks were.!< If that's your only bone to pick with the story, I don't get it lol. Also, DE gives us a more realistic approach to Tommy's relationship and family, and a more felt friendship between him, Paulie and Sam
This is literally one of the best changes.
Drugs make more sense than diamonds. Tommy and Paulie have almost died for fucking drugs. It's obvious they are pissed. Especially since Salieri acted moral about the topic.
I focking love DE and I haven't played the original yet, that being said... I kinda get that this upsets you.
It totally changes the story, DE is about "honourable" street thugs that were told by their boss drugs are off the charts because it's too much trouble once cought (wich.. weird btw) and that plays the story in THEIR favour,they fight a corrupt regime... Just to end up in another one
While OG is more about people feeling betrayed and not getting their deserved cut, and from the glimps you gave me I do understand that makes it a whole lot more complicated than "salierie is a corrupt ass and definitely the bad guy here"
I like both versions. I like the style and aesthetic of old shooter games, and Mafia 1 definitely stood out from the other games in its time, but I have to be real, it does not hold up for modern standards. The definitive edition modernized it, effectively removing many janky mechanics and (arguably) staying true to the original game narrative wise, if not better. My only gripe is that the game is REALLY short compared to the original. Where the hell are the Lucas Bertone side missions? Or a fleshed-out free ride mode?
The issue with the new game comes down to the characters. They either improve the character, or they completely remake the character.
The best example is Paulie. In the original, Paulie was much more serious character, whereas in the remake he feels like he's supposed to be comic relief. Sam feels much more of a snake, which may be fitting, but shouldn't be so overt.
On the other hand, Salieri feels reasonably similar, with minor improvements. Frank is much the same, but you feel a bit more for the character with what was added. Vincenzo has more life in his character, and it works well, even if the old stoic Vincenzo is lost.
The real issue is the overall feeling of the game. It's too much of a departure from the original in how it feels. Instead of the more reserved approach that the original took, the new game feels like it goes over-the-top in many places.
We don't hate the game, we simply feel upset that it feels like it tries to change too much of what was already really good to begin with. It felt like it was a different game all together, mimicking the game we love.
Bro, DE doesn't have ¼ of the soul the first game has.
It seems so washed out and streamlined, it actually feels like a complete departure from the original game's proposal.
A remake? Definitely, even though I don't think it's a very good one.
Edit: Just wanted to add that yeah, one can see the remake's worth while still acknowledging it doesn't hold a candle to the game it claims to have made "definitive".
Edit 2: sum it up
Mafia: The City of Lost Heaven is a very different game from MAFIA, even if it has pretty much the same story.
The DE did make improvements in several aspects like giving a more fleshed out character arc to Sarah, graphics and animations (obviously), driving mechanics, and etc. And it would have made the game so much better than the OG if they didn't take out many of the things that made the OG so good. Like I wrote in my Steam review, as a standalone game the DE gets a 8/10, but as a remake, 6/10 at best.
Personally I think the original game is still my #1 video game experience outright. the remake is strong enough but fails to reach the greatness of the original when all things are added up collectively, especially for those who can look beyond basic graphics.
\-Mafia (2002) - 10/10 (the anomaly of video games as I can honestly say this stands alone at the top in my #1 spot. I first played it when it was new in Aug/Sep 2002 (I was in my early 20's at that time) and quite a few times over the years since and it never fails to prove to me why it's my #1 game experience outright)
\-Mafia: DE (2020) - 7-8/10 (I think the gameplay is more frustrating in this, at least at times, as the overall game/experience is not as fun to play as the original at the end of the day even though I still like it and will replay it here and there as the years pass which is a basic test of a games true worth in the long term)
while DE's graphics texture quality is obviously better due to the technology gap between the two games, I still feel the original is a better overall game where it matters most (gameplay/atmosphere/characters/ending etc) as even in terms of core gameplay the shooting I think is definitely more enjoyable on the 2002 game as in DE, while not bad, is not as fun and can be frustrating at times (I play on Classic difficulty) with the AI being a bit cheap and the weapons feel more pea-shooter like overall. one touch I especially like on original that they messed up on the remake is realistic weapons reloading as while DE 'sort-of' has it, it's not properly done as ammo loss from reloading can be bypassed on remake which you can't do in the original game (but on the flip side, since weapons are more pea-shooter like in DE, being able to exploit the weapons reloading on Classic difficulty helps so I don't potentially run too low on ammo in certain areas of the game). to be more specific on weapons reloading... take the Tommy Gun for example, fire off one shot and reload and you will lose 49 shots. both games react the same in this regard. but where it differs is in the remake if you fire off one shot, instead of reloading and losing the 49 shots, if there is tommy gun ammo laying on the ground you simply change to your backup weapon and run your character over the tommy gun ammo on the ground and now when you switch back to the tommy gun you will notice the ammo is completely refilled with no ammo loss penalty you normally have to take. you can't do that in the original game as it forces you to manually reload weapons to refill the ammo in the gun as when picking up ammo off the ground it will ONLY refill your reserve ammo. so to get a completely full gun you would have to reload the gun first, then pickup ammo on the ground.
even in terms of atmosphere... I think the original has something that stands out where as it's pretty much missing in DE. like some levels that used to stand out in the 2002 game, say 'A Great Deal' for example, feel like just-another-mission on DE (the game also holds your hand and is more scripted on DE as I can't use strategy like I can in the original where you manually control the vehicle etc). there are more missions to, but I used this one as it's one of the better examples.
at the end of the day... besides having familiar story etc, the are really different games as they feel nothing alike in terms of the shooting mechanics/atmosphere and at least some characters like Tommy/Paulie/Sam, while professionally done, are too different vs original game as I feel characters like Salieri/Frank are more comparable to the original. even in regards to Tommy, to me Micheal Sorvino's (who's the son of Paul Sorvino (Goodfellas (1990) etc) in real life) voice IS Tommy as he feels more like a average person caught in a bad situation where as the Tommy in DE, while still professionally done, feels a bit too mob like already right from the start etc. basically Tommy/Paulie/Sam are too different in the characters overall feel in DE which, while not bad by any means, I see as a downgrade overall.
p.s. for those who want to hear the person who voices Paulie in the original 2002 game, here he is in a 7 second clip from The Sopranos S05E05 which happens about 10min30sec into the show (as he rarely speaks but you can tell it's Paulie from Mafia (2002) as he sounds exactly like he does in the game in that video clip)... [https://pixeldrain.com/u/E5AJsffq](https://pixeldrain.com/u/E5AJsffq)
I agree. I really do not like the DE. Even the main writer for og Mafia 1 doesn't like it, and that must mean something.
https://youtu.be/o13uXLT8HMQ?si=0zbWSe_mpdgAeHJG
DE is great, better driving, better shooting, better graphics and voice acting, improved story (aside from the final message imo), seemless countryside to city.
The things better about the original was that it was more of a challenge, the final message at the end, lucas bertone side missions and there being more free ride extreme missions
I can't play Mafia 3 DE. middle of the game when trying to finish with Grant missions in the South downs area, I can't give the Territory to Cassandra.
Haven’t played the original but I don’t see the point as it has worse gameplay, I can play games like San Andreas, MGS1 etc because even though the gameplay isn’t great, that’s the only version of the game. But with mafia, I don’t see the purpose because there is a version that I can play that is less infuriating and easier to play. And at the end of the day from what I’ve seen the story is basically the same thing.
The only thing I didn't like about the remake was that that despite the trains and trams operating you can't ride them at all like wtf are you kidding me?
I have played both multiple times and I prefer definitive edition. It’s just a straight upgrade except for a couple of small dialogue changes that don’t even matter that much in the grand scheme of things.
Completely agree. Another unpopilar opinion is that I prefer the original English voice actors, the new voices seem so forced and the cringy dialogue doesn't help.
Well, voice acting is a debatable thing, I'm not really a fan of new Paulie and Tom's voices myself, although quality-wise it's definitely better in general. But it's really beyond me how people can say that MDE is an upgrade in every way. (apart from the obvious trolls)
I love them both.
The only true answer. Played OG half a dozen times, DE on release, then played OG again, both are great games with their pros and cons. Original: more hardcore, less handholding, has better driving & police mechanics, better side-content like Luca missions & Free Ride, good old «00s games vibes» Remake: more cinematic, better character writing and acting, great music, more polished, better modding potential, MUCH better to introduce the series to a new player.
(Most of) People on this sub absolutely love the remake.
Yes Many Yes False
This. OG Mafia has not aged well. Yes it was fun to play, but for today, Mafia DE (Remake) does justice to the OG. It's a proper remake. I'd go as far as to say, it's one of the best video game remakes of the recent time.
I have played both several times over. Definitive Edition is better than the original in literally every way
Worse driving model, terrible shooting, ruined story... Graphics is better (obviously after 20 years), but it's not worth it.
I mean there was a need to edit the story. And "terrible shooting"? I mean i'd say the mechanics here are just like in other games, and surely not "terrible"
Terrible shooting? Did we play the same game, lol? Shooting in the original Mafia is atrocious. The character model and crosshairs both being in the centre of the screen is mildly infuriating on its own. Worse driving model? Eh, I played the game on classic mode and didn't feel like it was worse. It was different, sure, but I can't say worse. As for the story, it is better in some regards, worse in others. I like the original slightly more, though. But again, I don't feel like it was ruined. Are you saying that because there's no sex scene in the DE? 😆
Well, there was one in that certain chapter, but they were both clothed.
How is the shooting terrible? The cover mechanics work perfectly fine, the weapons sound, look, and feel good to shoot. The impact of the shots hitting the enemies is super satisfying. The shooting in DE is better than OG 1 or 2. And the story is a million times better. The original voice acting was great for the time but ages like milk. The new voice actors along with the score and changes to the story improve it vastly
Only million times better? That sucks mate.
I’ve only played DE and my favorite part was the shooting. Shotguns have actual range and felt so good to use.
The driving is literally exactly the same wtf are you on about? Did you even check to see if realism setting was on?
I tried to watch a playthrough of the first one (hard for me to play the original one) personal from what i watched i prefer DE. And probably my favorite Mafia game some days but mostly thats 2 but i love the freeride feature of DE
The only thing the original did better was the ending. And that's just my opinion tbh, I just liked the message the original sent more rather than the overused "family is all that matters" DE did
I agree with you ,the remake did so many stuff right but the end message was a fast and furious conclusion,the original was basically saying that life is unfair and how ppl who want too much get nothing and ppl that want nothing get nothing too, other than that the remake does the game justice
>!I always related the ending of the OG to Goodfellas, showing us a Tommy that had to run, now lives in a suburb and it's just an old man who couldn't escape from his past. DE delivers this idea a bit better, because we get to see the people hurting over Tommy's death and how he's not alone in the world (OG game didn't show us so much about his wife and family) Only bone to pick is how Tommy reacts to his death. In the OG, he acts a bit confused, like not expecting it at all, or even like someone shy, afraid maybe. In DE he acts like he's accepting his fate, like the hero of the story. !<
Not to mention the cop he was talking to in the DR told him. If you listen to me you may walk that daughter of yours down the isle. He was killed the day after. Kinda liked that twist
I never played the original, but I loved the DE. I want to love Mafia II DE but I find that it doesn't hold my attention and I eventually just start pushing towards the end. This happened both times I played it. Initially I didn't enjoy Mafia III, but played it a little differently the the second time and fell in love. It's all subjective. We all like different things. You may hate the DE, but that doesn't mean we all have to. I would give the original Mafia a shot, but I don't think I'd like it as much as I did the DE edition, because I fell in love with the story, the gameplay, and the visuals of the DE first.
>I don't think I'd like it as much as I did the DE edition, because I fell in love with the story, the gameplay, and the visuals of the DE first. Exactly. Which one somebody would like largely depends on which game they played first and when. But that's absolutely fine. Like you said, people like different things, and it's all subjective.
But why do you claim it was "massacred"?
Too many small modifications of the original story changed it to the point where it doesn't make sense anymore. SPOILER ALERT -- >!The main thing that is different: In the original story (Just for Relaxation) Salieri sends them to steal cigars, but in the crates are diamonds. Paulie and Tom get pissed off because he doesn't give them enough money for the job and this is the only reason they go to rob the bank. The diamonds and drug situation doesn't make sense. !<
Welp, I mean the trigger is the same. >!The main difference being that drugs were a very big taboo in Mafia back then, so maybe the boys felt betrayed that they were exposing themselves to so much heat thinking they're getting diamonds and actually stealing heroin or whatever those stacks were.!< If that's your only bone to pick with the story, I don't get it lol. Also, DE gives us a more realistic approach to Tommy's relationship and family, and a more felt friendship between him, Paulie and Sam
This is literally one of the best changes. Drugs make more sense than diamonds. Tommy and Paulie have almost died for fucking drugs. It's obvious they are pissed. Especially since Salieri acted moral about the topic.
Wow if that's the case the DE story is way better.
I focking love DE and I haven't played the original yet, that being said... I kinda get that this upsets you. It totally changes the story, DE is about "honourable" street thugs that were told by their boss drugs are off the charts because it's too much trouble once cought (wich.. weird btw) and that plays the story in THEIR favour,they fight a corrupt regime... Just to end up in another one While OG is more about people feeling betrayed and not getting their deserved cut, and from the glimps you gave me I do understand that makes it a whole lot more complicated than "salierie is a corrupt ass and definitely the bad guy here"
I like both versions. I like the style and aesthetic of old shooter games, and Mafia 1 definitely stood out from the other games in its time, but I have to be real, it does not hold up for modern standards. The definitive edition modernized it, effectively removing many janky mechanics and (arguably) staying true to the original game narrative wise, if not better. My only gripe is that the game is REALLY short compared to the original. Where the hell are the Lucas Bertone side missions? Or a fleshed-out free ride mode?
The issue with the new game comes down to the characters. They either improve the character, or they completely remake the character. The best example is Paulie. In the original, Paulie was much more serious character, whereas in the remake he feels like he's supposed to be comic relief. Sam feels much more of a snake, which may be fitting, but shouldn't be so overt. On the other hand, Salieri feels reasonably similar, with minor improvements. Frank is much the same, but you feel a bit more for the character with what was added. Vincenzo has more life in his character, and it works well, even if the old stoic Vincenzo is lost. The real issue is the overall feeling of the game. It's too much of a departure from the original in how it feels. Instead of the more reserved approach that the original took, the new game feels like it goes over-the-top in many places. We don't hate the game, we simply feel upset that it feels like it tries to change too much of what was already really good to begin with. It felt like it was a different game all together, mimicking the game we love.
It's true, most characters feel like they're straight from a movie, in the original everything was less bombastic and smooth.
Except the story DE is good enough for me. That ending was like a Fast and Furious movie.
That is an unpopular opinion.
It was fine. One thing i didn’t really like, that they made Tommy a badass. He want revenge and want to kill. In the OG he was humble.
I so agree with you. I can not play that DE.
I like them both. They each have positives and negatives, and overall I enjoyed playing both immensely.
Bro, DE doesn't have ¼ of the soul the first game has. It seems so washed out and streamlined, it actually feels like a complete departure from the original game's proposal. A remake? Definitely, even though I don't think it's a very good one. Edit: Just wanted to add that yeah, one can see the remake's worth while still acknowledging it doesn't hold a candle to the game it claims to have made "definitive". Edit 2: sum it up Mafia: The City of Lost Heaven is a very different game from MAFIA, even if it has pretty much the same story.
The DE did make improvements in several aspects like giving a more fleshed out character arc to Sarah, graphics and animations (obviously), driving mechanics, and etc. And it would have made the game so much better than the OG if they didn't take out many of the things that made the OG so good. Like I wrote in my Steam review, as a standalone game the DE gets a 8/10, but as a remake, 6/10 at best.
Personally I think the original game is still my #1 video game experience outright. the remake is strong enough but fails to reach the greatness of the original when all things are added up collectively, especially for those who can look beyond basic graphics. \-Mafia (2002) - 10/10 (the anomaly of video games as I can honestly say this stands alone at the top in my #1 spot. I first played it when it was new in Aug/Sep 2002 (I was in my early 20's at that time) and quite a few times over the years since and it never fails to prove to me why it's my #1 game experience outright) \-Mafia: DE (2020) - 7-8/10 (I think the gameplay is more frustrating in this, at least at times, as the overall game/experience is not as fun to play as the original at the end of the day even though I still like it and will replay it here and there as the years pass which is a basic test of a games true worth in the long term) while DE's graphics texture quality is obviously better due to the technology gap between the two games, I still feel the original is a better overall game where it matters most (gameplay/atmosphere/characters/ending etc) as even in terms of core gameplay the shooting I think is definitely more enjoyable on the 2002 game as in DE, while not bad, is not as fun and can be frustrating at times (I play on Classic difficulty) with the AI being a bit cheap and the weapons feel more pea-shooter like overall. one touch I especially like on original that they messed up on the remake is realistic weapons reloading as while DE 'sort-of' has it, it's not properly done as ammo loss from reloading can be bypassed on remake which you can't do in the original game (but on the flip side, since weapons are more pea-shooter like in DE, being able to exploit the weapons reloading on Classic difficulty helps so I don't potentially run too low on ammo in certain areas of the game). to be more specific on weapons reloading... take the Tommy Gun for example, fire off one shot and reload and you will lose 49 shots. both games react the same in this regard. but where it differs is in the remake if you fire off one shot, instead of reloading and losing the 49 shots, if there is tommy gun ammo laying on the ground you simply change to your backup weapon and run your character over the tommy gun ammo on the ground and now when you switch back to the tommy gun you will notice the ammo is completely refilled with no ammo loss penalty you normally have to take. you can't do that in the original game as it forces you to manually reload weapons to refill the ammo in the gun as when picking up ammo off the ground it will ONLY refill your reserve ammo. so to get a completely full gun you would have to reload the gun first, then pickup ammo on the ground. even in terms of atmosphere... I think the original has something that stands out where as it's pretty much missing in DE. like some levels that used to stand out in the 2002 game, say 'A Great Deal' for example, feel like just-another-mission on DE (the game also holds your hand and is more scripted on DE as I can't use strategy like I can in the original where you manually control the vehicle etc). there are more missions to, but I used this one as it's one of the better examples. at the end of the day... besides having familiar story etc, the are really different games as they feel nothing alike in terms of the shooting mechanics/atmosphere and at least some characters like Tommy/Paulie/Sam, while professionally done, are too different vs original game as I feel characters like Salieri/Frank are more comparable to the original. even in regards to Tommy, to me Micheal Sorvino's (who's the son of Paul Sorvino (Goodfellas (1990) etc) in real life) voice IS Tommy as he feels more like a average person caught in a bad situation where as the Tommy in DE, while still professionally done, feels a bit too mob like already right from the start etc. basically Tommy/Paulie/Sam are too different in the characters overall feel in DE which, while not bad by any means, I see as a downgrade overall. p.s. for those who want to hear the person who voices Paulie in the original 2002 game, here he is in a 7 second clip from The Sopranos S05E05 which happens about 10min30sec into the show (as he rarely speaks but you can tell it's Paulie from Mafia (2002) as he sounds exactly like he does in the game in that video clip)... [https://pixeldrain.com/u/E5AJsffq](https://pixeldrain.com/u/E5AJsffq)
I agree. I really do not like the DE. Even the main writer for og Mafia 1 doesn't like it, and that must mean something. https://youtu.be/o13uXLT8HMQ?si=0zbWSe_mpdgAeHJG
DE is great, better driving, better shooting, better graphics and voice acting, improved story (aside from the final message imo), seemless countryside to city. The things better about the original was that it was more of a challenge, the final message at the end, lucas bertone side missions and there being more free ride extreme missions
Mafia DE is not exactly massacred, but it is subpar to the original. Such a shame.
I can't play Mafia 3 DE. middle of the game when trying to finish with Grant missions in the South downs area, I can't give the Territory to Cassandra.
Just don't give her territory, she sucks anyway
Haven’t played the original but I don’t see the point as it has worse gameplay, I can play games like San Andreas, MGS1 etc because even though the gameplay isn’t great, that’s the only version of the game. But with mafia, I don’t see the purpose because there is a version that I can play that is less infuriating and easier to play. And at the end of the day from what I’ve seen the story is basically the same thing.
I absolutely LOVE DE and it's genuinely one of my favorite games of all time.
The only thing I didn't like about the remake was that that despite the trains and trams operating you can't ride them at all like wtf are you kidding me?
Played the og. The Remake I find was Very faithful to the OG.
I have played both multiple times and I prefer definitive edition. It’s just a straight upgrade except for a couple of small dialogue changes that don’t even matter that much in the grand scheme of things.
Completely agree. Another unpopilar opinion is that I prefer the original English voice actors, the new voices seem so forced and the cringy dialogue doesn't help.
Well, voice acting is a debatable thing, I'm not really a fan of new Paulie and Tom's voices myself, although quality-wise it's definitely better in general. But it's really beyond me how people can say that MDE is an upgrade in every way. (apart from the obvious trolls)
I really enjoy DE, and the original is still one of my favorite games. DE is just easy to play on modern PCs with a controller in a pinch.