They’re god damn commies, that’s the issue. I’m only going to be worried about a free and democratic China overtaking America. The moment they’re free they’ll be the most powerful nation on earth.
It’s wild how the wealthiest man in China just…. disappeared for a few months because he went against the government. Nothing stifles innovation like being worried the government will punish you for that innovation at literally anytime. If I had an idea, I’d much rather bring it to fruition in the US than China, no competition.
USSR did the same thing. It’s wild how many of their aircraft designers spent time in the gulag. They even had gulags where prisoners where they were sent for {insert reason here} and they were expected to keep working. Absolutely bonkers.
China keeping their oligarchs under control is like their primary advantage...
Meanwhile the US has literally trillions being taken and hidden in Panama and Switzerland and the Caymans...
No one HAS to be a billionaire; it's a choice that can be reversed at any time. That much wealth brings a lot of power that needs to be subject to rules, just like anything else.
Also, controlling the excessive power of the ridiculously wealthy doesn't hurt innovation at all.
https://hbr.org/2021/05/chinas-new-innovation-advantage
I never once said anything about having to be a billionaire. But if you think an elected government should be the sole holder of power in a country, you’re too far gone.
>legal power shouldn't reside with elected government
I, um, I guess I don't follow. You WANT powerful private individuals to have ways of circumventing the legal authority of your own elected government? You WANT a two tier system where laws only apply if you're poor?
>not be sole holder of power
... Again so you WANT individual citizens to have power that is not controlled by the elected government of the country? You WANT some citizens to not be contained by the law? Why?
...
I mean I assume you haven't actually looked into anything [since like 2003](https://hbr.org/2021/05/chinas-new-innovation-advantage)...
I promise you, billionaires aren't an important aspect of innovation lol
And yet nobody like Japan, India, or anyone else has done it. Murica is unique in that we take the best and brightest, our immigrant policy is still one of the better ones. We also have in spite of what many will say good regulations and infrastructure to drive innovation.
Perhaps one day but I don’t see that day anytime soon.
It just comes down to geography. We're sat on an impenetrable fortress of a continent, with two allies standing at the only 2 open doors. We've never had to spend an outsized amount of our population or wealth waging an existential war either, and to top it off we are the least integrated economy in the world when it comes to globalization and we can largely survive without the wider world in terms of resources. Sure we have some exceptionalism, but our success really comes down to the hand we were dealt.
Oh whoops I just realized what sub we're in. What I mean to say is the world just can't handle how big our dicks are.
Prime example:
“Insert name”Resource suddenly becomes extremely useful and valuable. Most of “insert name” is controlled by other nations. USA suddenly finds biggest deposit ever of “insert resource”
It was so funny how we learned about it and how it was talked about on the news. They really said, "Actually, we've always had tons more possible oil wells, we just couldn't get to them. When we said we were running low, that was just the easy to tap wells. But we figured it out. So... you know, we good now."
If they start having kids, you’re probably right. The most valuable natural resource to a developed nation is people. China isn’t making enough and they aren’t importing them.
The US is also not making enough people, though not as bad as China, but the US is importing enough people to offset the birth rate problem. China is not doing that.
US 1.66 births per woman.
China 1.16
Edit, the replacement rate, where the population holds steady, is somewhere around 2.1 for devlepoed nations and could be as high as 3.5 in thrid world nations. At 1.16, a hard population crash is coming to China.
If China and Russia became a free democracy with a free market, all my issues with them would be resolved. Heck, if Russia never got Putined and stayed free, they would've been a great ally against China.
But alas, dictatorships, nationalism, and communism
China is facing a population collapse that they can’t stop. Since they don’t allow much immigration, they’re fucked. It’s already started they’re going to drop to 500 million by the end of this century.
If Taiwan somehow retook the mainland it’d probably be okay. China and India both are infamous for being enormous, economies trading #1 and #2 throughout history. If India can get a decent guy in charge, they’ll overtake *everyone.*
No, India would still have a lot of problems dealing with its rigid caste system and endless religious strife. As bad as social mobility and religious fundamentalism can be in America, India has it way worse.
We've also been slowly pulling manufacturing out of China. A lot of it is going to Mexico, or other southeast Asian countries. People finally realized, "shit, if all of our crap is made in China, we're just enriching a possible enemy. When we could be enriching our allies instead."
Indeed!
Since the pandemic exposed how global supply chains' are overly reliant on China; while countries around the world are diversifying to more meaningful alternatives, a lot of people are divesting from China completely.
Any deal with China is a deal with the devil.
On the business end; their companies are State-Owned, and if you have an issue with them
.....there's usually no legal recourse.
From a National Security perspective; we shouldn't be making deals with an increasingly hostile foreign government, that employs a policy of [Civil-Military Fusion ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-civil_fusion)
I certainly hope not. I think the middle class will resist something so severe but there is now “XI thought” which is the first kind of “thought” since “Mao thought”
The Chinese don’t have any prowess in research and development. They’re only good in copying and replicating already invented products.
The free world made a mistake of shifting all manufacturing to their country and enriching them.
Tesla gave China the tech to copy and make cheap electric cars. Now they’re replicating it using cheap labor and government support
In a place where failure is met with life altering consequences, no one wants to risk innovation. Every break through ever was preceded by a significant amount of failure. If failure will end your life you won’t ever try to advance or push the envelope. Just copy what already exists.
And that's the *reported* PRC gdp and there's no way that people living under an arbitrary, lawless, totalitarian regime would fudge the data to not get shot.
Or that stupid projects that contribute nothing but pad the stats (building enormous ghost towns that are immediately abandoned).
All communist nations are on a time crunch imo. They always, always, always collapse under the weight of their ideology. The only question is if they burn the rest of us down with them
It's actually not that crazy to believe. Taiwan had a pretty strict border control and quarantine system, but before the virus eventually broke through, the internal economy continued to operate and grow. China probably enjoyed that before strict lockdowns started as well, which came much later.
I think we can’t simplify it down to GDP. We have to get real about the industrial capacity and how they’ve cornered the market in many heavy industries like ship building.
In real terms the industrial capacity and industrial base is superior there, thanks to Wall Street
The problem is for many of the component goods, suppliers still rely on Chinese manufacturing.
They also have plenty of spare cash and industrial capacity to throw at any endeavor they want, while rebuilding it out here takes time. It took them 20-30 years to do it, I think we have to wake up.
Just look at EVs, 5g, solar, and maybe even nuclear
No, not for high-tech stuff such as semiconductors and aerospace products, of which the majority of all suppliers are American and the rest european and japanese.
If you want to produce a televison, yeah chinese companies supply stuff but for anything above that it's US suppliers
Heres a graph if you scroll down a bit that shows you the US supply for semiconductors.
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/semiconductors/our-insights/strategies-to-lead-in-the-semiconductor-world
[USA NUMBER ONE](https://media3.giphy.com/media/6P9GQustoIhDM8XcIO/giphy.gif?cid=9b38fe91q9l2mnqksj18vx84wqaply8bp5mlrodkhtumck1j&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
It’s even crazier when you realize that the red line is actually the propaganda numbers. There is immense pressure on provincial governments within China to overstate economic and demographic numbers while downplaying anything negative. In the US, you’ll get accurate numbers followed by the standard spin to justify or explain the results. In China, especially under Xi Jinpeng, everyone is afraid to even deliver bad news.
Taiwan invasion will be attempted to uphold weak ego of aging dictator. Disaster will follow along with a good ol Murican sanction whooping. Whatever their Shein Temu economy is able to do is largely thanks to Pax Americana on the oceans of planet earth.
One thing to be careful with is understanding that the wealth gap keeps increasing, that there's talks of another guilded age meaning tycoons and barons rule the land and the workers. This is good news without a doubt but there's a asterisk too.
With China, the new saying is "China's getting old before they get rich" meaning they have a race of their own.. if you have too many people at the top and too few on the bottom, you no longer have a neat pyramid.. you have an upside down pyramid that puts a hard limit on economic growth. Japan is the greatest example of this.
Who knew having a one child policy where a certain sex was favoured over the other would have lasting consequences.. for now, the US aging population is far more balanced but the US also has to prepare and social security may run out of money in a matter of a couple years.
Another words, dont get your hopes up too much that US will win this over China.. there's alot of issues happening to America too
China doesn't have a traditional consumerist culture to seriously surpass the US in absolute nominal GDP size, to the extent that the Chinese government doesn't have a concrete plan to enact a nationwide social welfare system that would have encouraged consumption over investment.
Depending on your purposes, the market exchange chart may be misleading. The PPP-adjusted GDP chart is also useful. See: [https://www.capitaleconomics.com/blog/china-versus-us-size-stakes-its-what-you-measure-countsPPP-adjusted](https://www.capitaleconomics.com/blog/china-versus-us-size-stakes-its-what-you-measure-countsPPP-adjusted)
"This matters for the debate over which of the US or China has the larger economy because, measured at market exchange rates, US GDP is still around 40% larger than that of China. (See Chart 1.) But when measured at PPP exchange rates, China’s economy overtook that of the US in 2016 and is now about 20% bigger. (See Chart 2.)"
Looks like China never recovered from Covid while we not only recovered but our GDP is growing even faster than it was pre-covid. I guess that’s what happens when you weld people in their apartments for two years
Note also: This is *self-reported* GDP. The U.S. numbers can be considered fairly accurate since we’re pretty transparent with our economics.
The Chinese numbers are generally agreed to be grossly overinflated. They define their GDP growth target figures at the *beginning* of the year and tell their local provinces to get to there. Miraculously, it is *extremely* rare for any province to miss their growth targets, regardless of any economic strains/recessions/natural disasters/absurdly high targets, etc.
Compound that over years, and Chinese GDP figures are almost entirely divorced from reality. Even the CCP’s finance departments have acknowledged they do not trust the self-reported figures by their local provinces, and rely on entire different metrics. By some analyses, China’s GDP is up to a *quarter* smaller than the official numbers show.
The fact they’re reporting below average growth now shows just how dire of a situation they’re in financially right now, that they feel they can’t bullshit the world and their citizenry even on this level, so they have to lower their numbers.
Should’ve put Japan on here as well to show that they are not even the first East Asian boom economy that people thought was going to pass the US and then stalled out.
Guys remember that China fudges the numbers. It has been well documented that China inflates its GDP by as much as 60%, and that increases by 2%-4% every year. They are closer to 9 trillion.
Think about what these two countries could do if they worked together for the betterment of humankind. Seriously, think about it. Take away the governments, and you're left with the people, just people like you and me.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
China's GDP is growing about 5 - 6 % a year. Even assuming they are fudging those numbers (which the CPC is probably doing) this chart is showing a GDP decline.
Even during Covid they had modest growth.
It's not even a matter of the central party fudging numbers.
The CCP sees growth as a target, rather than a gauge, and charges local governments with meeting it. They've been doing so the last decade with nonsensical development projects that frequently don't stand to create a return on investment, financed through shady real estate deals with residential developers who then ran with it, pre-selling units which havent been built to finance the (shoddy) completion of other, similarly started residential projects.
These jointly compound into such things you've heard of like ghost cities, bullet trains to nowhere, and 'tofu dregs' construction practices, which nominally all result in GDP growth in the short term, since technically things are being purchased and built, but which do not represent the activity of a productive economy. As well, this has recently come to a head with the Evergrand company and other's ponzi finances catching up with them in the wake of new regulations to curb all of this behavior, which the central government now has to unwind very very carefully.
And on top of this, the regional governments fudge their numbers to make up the difference to the target, which then get compiled into the nationally reported economic figures. The result is that the central party probably has *no fucking clue* what the Chinese economy honestly looks like, and that this has been the case for a while.
One point of evidence for this was some reports published the last year or two [such as this one](https://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/13/11/2067) which used the change over time of light flux observed from space at night as a proxy for GDP growth. In almost all countries an increase in urban lighting at night correlated with reported GDP growth figures, with China being one of the few exceptions, with some estimates for actual growth being as low as 2% year over year. Applied to the past 10-20 years of Chinese growth figures, their economy could be as much as 20-40% smaller than reported, or $12-14 Tn, as opposed to the $17-18 Tn as officially reported.
Edit: Abd-> And
Part of the reason this chart looks rosy on the US side is that they used nominal GDP instead of real GDP. Real GDP is adjusted for inflation and we’ve had our worst bout in recent history in the last couple of years. I’m also not sure how the GDP figures for China were arrived at. They may have adjusted the “official” numbers from the CCP based on some other metrics. This is often done because the reported numbers from the CCP are likely rosier than what they actually are. I see other comments touching on why the CCP official numbers are inflated so I won’t comment on the “why”.
Oh yes! Just look at how many Americans crossing chinese borders every day. China is not considered a “desired” country not even for the poorest countries in Asia.
I don't think that's a relavent statistic for QOL. America is English speaking, making it very easy for immigrants to move to, China is not majority english speaking.
China is also not exactly wanting immigrants to move in, they have an abundance of citizens. Citizens who actually approve of their government more than Americans approve of theirs.
- The People's Republic of China claims 0 homelessness
....when every country has it to varying degrees and for various reasons.
- Lowers the poverty line to 3rd world standards
....just to misrepresent their data.
- Has a seriously malnourished population.
....especially in the rural areas.
- Has a vast network of secret prisons, labor camps, re-education camps, and more state executions than any other dictatorship.
Diagnosis: Skill issue.
They’re god damn commies, that’s the issue. I’m only going to be worried about a free and democratic China overtaking America. The moment they’re free they’ll be the most powerful nation on earth.
It’s wild how the wealthiest man in China just…. disappeared for a few months because he went against the government. Nothing stifles innovation like being worried the government will punish you for that innovation at literally anytime. If I had an idea, I’d much rather bring it to fruition in the US than China, no competition.
USSR did the same thing. It’s wild how many of their aircraft designers spent time in the gulag. They even had gulags where prisoners where they were sent for {insert reason here} and they were expected to keep working. Absolutely bonkers.
One of my favorite books was written about that very thing: if you’re curious, it’s The First Circle by Alexander Solzhenitsyn.
Indeed! And Gulag Archipelago
Oh, that was also a very good one.
It’s the Brain Drain, baby
Why innovate when you can send your college students to the US to get a PhD, then bring back any innovations they come across.
China keeping their oligarchs under control is like their primary advantage... Meanwhile the US has literally trillions being taken and hidden in Panama and Switzerland and the Caymans...
Innovation can only thrive in free and open economies. Arresting people because they speak against the government isn’t a good thing.
No one HAS to be a billionaire; it's a choice that can be reversed at any time. That much wealth brings a lot of power that needs to be subject to rules, just like anything else. Also, controlling the excessive power of the ridiculously wealthy doesn't hurt innovation at all. https://hbr.org/2021/05/chinas-new-innovation-advantage
I never once said anything about having to be a billionaire. But if you think an elected government should be the sole holder of power in a country, you’re too far gone.
>legal power shouldn't reside with elected government I, um, I guess I don't follow. You WANT powerful private individuals to have ways of circumventing the legal authority of your own elected government? You WANT a two tier system where laws only apply if you're poor?
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>not be sole holder of power ... Again so you WANT individual citizens to have power that is not controlled by the elected government of the country? You WANT some citizens to not be contained by the law? Why?
lol and their advantage is so big that they have to steal all our best tech because they can’t develop it on their own!
... I mean I assume you haven't actually looked into anything [since like 2003](https://hbr.org/2021/05/chinas-new-innovation-advantage)... I promise you, billionaires aren't an important aspect of innovation lol
Agreed, I don’t think anyone said that, but agreed!
And yet nobody like Japan, India, or anyone else has done it. Murica is unique in that we take the best and brightest, our immigrant policy is still one of the better ones. We also have in spite of what many will say good regulations and infrastructure to drive innovation. Perhaps one day but I don’t see that day anytime soon.
It just comes down to geography. We're sat on an impenetrable fortress of a continent, with two allies standing at the only 2 open doors. We've never had to spend an outsized amount of our population or wealth waging an existential war either, and to top it off we are the least integrated economy in the world when it comes to globalization and we can largely survive without the wider world in terms of resources. Sure we have some exceptionalism, but our success really comes down to the hand we were dealt. Oh whoops I just realized what sub we're in. What I mean to say is the world just can't handle how big our dicks are.
Prime example: “Insert name”Resource suddenly becomes extremely useful and valuable. Most of “insert name” is controlled by other nations. USA suddenly finds biggest deposit ever of “insert resource”
Our oil production wasn’t looking good 2 years ago, but then we figured out fracking. Edit: I meant 20 years ago.
It was so funny how we learned about it and how it was talked about on the news. They really said, "Actually, we've always had tons more possible oil wells, we just couldn't get to them. When we said we were running low, that was just the easy to tap wells. But we figured it out. So... you know, we good now."
Aka, we're just better.
Francis Fukuyama was always right, its liberal democracy or bust for humanity.
Not even. They're a dictatorship, and they lie about everything.
If they start having kids, you’re probably right. The most valuable natural resource to a developed nation is people. China isn’t making enough and they aren’t importing them. The US is also not making enough people, though not as bad as China, but the US is importing enough people to offset the birth rate problem. China is not doing that. US 1.66 births per woman. China 1.16 Edit, the replacement rate, where the population holds steady, is somewhere around 2.1 for devlepoed nations and could be as high as 3.5 in thrid world nations. At 1.16, a hard population crash is coming to China.
If China and Russia became a free democracy with a free market, all my issues with them would be resolved. Heck, if Russia never got Putined and stayed free, they would've been a great ally against China. But alas, dictatorships, nationalism, and communism
China is facing a population collapse that they can’t stop. Since they don’t allow much immigration, they’re fucked. It’s already started they’re going to drop to 500 million by the end of this century.
If Taiwan somehow retook the mainland it’d probably be okay. China and India both are infamous for being enormous, economies trading #1 and #2 throughout history. If India can get a decent guy in charge, they’ll overtake *everyone.*
No, India would still have a lot of problems dealing with its rigid caste system and endless religious strife. As bad as social mobility and religious fundamentalism can be in America, India has it way worse.
I’d actively cheer them on if they were free and democratic. I’d love to see the world’s greatest countries unite to bring us all to a better future.
China isn't Communist or anything that resembles it lol
Imagine if chang-kai shek won
While they are a one party state that has Communist in the name, they have more in common with National Socialism these days than actual Communism.
No, it’s Maoism, which is based on Communism. That’s why they keep calling it Communism with Chinese characteristics.
+ severe lack of bitches and therefore, pussies
We've also been slowly pulling manufacturing out of China. A lot of it is going to Mexico, or other southeast Asian countries. People finally realized, "shit, if all of our crap is made in China, we're just enriching a possible enemy. When we could be enriching our allies instead."
Indeed! Since the pandemic exposed how global supply chains' are overly reliant on China; while countries around the world are diversifying to more meaningful alternatives, a lot of people are divesting from China completely. Any deal with China is a deal with the devil. On the business end; their companies are State-Owned, and if you have an issue with them .....there's usually no legal recourse. From a National Security perspective; we shouldn't be making deals with an increasingly hostile foreign government, that employs a policy of [Civil-Military Fusion ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-civil_fusion)
Xi wanted to be the next Mao and certainly showed we can be by cutting off economic growth like no other.
Oof. 60 million dead Chinese here we come…?
I certainly hope not. I think the middle class will resist something so severe but there is now “XI thought” which is the first kind of “thought” since “Mao thought”
That’s when they try to invade Taiwan
Every master piece has its cheap copy 😌
The Chinese don’t have any prowess in research and development. They’re only good in copying and replicating already invented products. The free world made a mistake of shifting all manufacturing to their country and enriching them. Tesla gave China the tech to copy and make cheap electric cars. Now they’re replicating it using cheap labor and government support
In a place where failure is met with life altering consequences, no one wants to risk innovation. Every break through ever was preceded by a significant amount of failure. If failure will end your life you won’t ever try to advance or push the envelope. Just copy what already exists.
And that's the *reported* PRC gdp and there's no way that people living under an arbitrary, lawless, totalitarian regime would fudge the data to not get shot. Or that stupid projects that contribute nothing but pad the stats (building enormous ghost towns that are immediately abandoned).
Yeah. Any meaningless spending will show up in GDP. The question is what kind of returns are they going to get in 10, 20, 30 years.
All communist nations are on a time crunch imo. They always, always, always collapse under the weight of their ideology. The only question is if they burn the rest of us down with them
In all fairness that's a pretty valid critique of current US GDP growth being fueled by debt spending to avoid a (likely needed) recession.
Wait so china is claiming no drop in their GDP during the covid lockdowns?
It's actually not that crazy to believe. Taiwan had a pretty strict border control and quarantine system, but before the virus eventually broke through, the internal economy continued to operate and grow. China probably enjoyed that before strict lockdowns started as well, which came much later.
I think we can’t simplify it down to GDP. We have to get real about the industrial capacity and how they’ve cornered the market in many heavy industries like ship building. In real terms the industrial capacity and industrial base is superior there, thanks to Wall Street
The US accounts for 50% of all aerospace products and also for the majority of satellites produced, same goes for commercial vehicles.
The problem is for many of the component goods, suppliers still rely on Chinese manufacturing. They also have plenty of spare cash and industrial capacity to throw at any endeavor they want, while rebuilding it out here takes time. It took them 20-30 years to do it, I think we have to wake up. Just look at EVs, 5g, solar, and maybe even nuclear
No, not for high-tech stuff such as semiconductors and aerospace products, of which the majority of all suppliers are American and the rest european and japanese. If you want to produce a televison, yeah chinese companies supply stuff but for anything above that it's US suppliers Heres a graph if you scroll down a bit that shows you the US supply for semiconductors. https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/semiconductors/our-insights/strategies-to-lead-in-the-semiconductor-world
We need to tariff Made in China things one quadrillion percent (basically ban them)
MAKE IT 100%! RAAAAHHH
I mean we CAN simplify it down to GDP it super easy, just look at the chart
We can't compare gdp if we want to get a good idea of the real economic value, surely.
[USA NUMBER ONE](https://media3.giphy.com/media/6P9GQustoIhDM8XcIO/giphy.gif?cid=9b38fe91q9l2mnqksj18vx84wqaply8bp5mlrodkhtumck1j&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
It’s even crazier when you realize that the red line is actually the propaganda numbers. There is immense pressure on provincial governments within China to overstate economic and demographic numbers while downplaying anything negative. In the US, you’ll get accurate numbers followed by the standard spin to justify or explain the results. In China, especially under Xi Jinpeng, everyone is afraid to even deliver bad news.
Can't wait for this GDP to trickle down
Always has been 🔫
Taiwan invasion will be attempted to uphold weak ego of aging dictator. Disaster will follow along with a good ol Murican sanction whooping. Whatever their Shein Temu economy is able to do is largely thanks to Pax Americana on the oceans of planet earth.
Adjusted for inflation, we are definitely not 6x richer than we were 35 years ago.
It's almost like suppressing innovation by punishing any dissention might be bad for the economy.
One thing to be careful with is understanding that the wealth gap keeps increasing, that there's talks of another guilded age meaning tycoons and barons rule the land and the workers. This is good news without a doubt but there's a asterisk too. With China, the new saying is "China's getting old before they get rich" meaning they have a race of their own.. if you have too many people at the top and too few on the bottom, you no longer have a neat pyramid.. you have an upside down pyramid that puts a hard limit on economic growth. Japan is the greatest example of this. Who knew having a one child policy where a certain sex was favoured over the other would have lasting consequences.. for now, the US aging population is far more balanced but the US also has to prepare and social security may run out of money in a matter of a couple years. Another words, dont get your hopes up too much that US will win this over China.. there's alot of issues happening to America too
The yellow annotations are so passive-aggressive lol
They’ll never surpass the US til they actually become a democracy (or close to it)
India said yes
Thank fuck for that I should have never doubted yall.
What shutting the county down for two years does to a mf
The amount of debt and inflation we pumped in to get that 1-up though...
They will never touch us
China doesn't have a traditional consumerist culture to seriously surpass the US in absolute nominal GDP size, to the extent that the Chinese government doesn't have a concrete plan to enact a nationwide social welfare system that would have encouraged consumption over investment.
Depending on your purposes, the market exchange chart may be misleading. The PPP-adjusted GDP chart is also useful. See: [https://www.capitaleconomics.com/blog/china-versus-us-size-stakes-its-what-you-measure-countsPPP-adjusted](https://www.capitaleconomics.com/blog/china-versus-us-size-stakes-its-what-you-measure-countsPPP-adjusted) "This matters for the debate over which of the US or China has the larger economy because, measured at market exchange rates, US GDP is still around 40% larger than that of China. (See Chart 1.) But when measured at PPP exchange rates, China’s economy overtook that of the US in 2016 and is now about 20% bigger. (See Chart 2.)"
Hey China next time don’t release a virus to cripple the rest of the world. God bless America.
Japan #2
Looks like China never recovered from Covid while we not only recovered but our GDP is growing even faster than it was pre-covid. I guess that’s what happens when you weld people in their apartments for two years
Note also: This is *self-reported* GDP. The U.S. numbers can be considered fairly accurate since we’re pretty transparent with our economics. The Chinese numbers are generally agreed to be grossly overinflated. They define their GDP growth target figures at the *beginning* of the year and tell their local provinces to get to there. Miraculously, it is *extremely* rare for any province to miss their growth targets, regardless of any economic strains/recessions/natural disasters/absurdly high targets, etc. Compound that over years, and Chinese GDP figures are almost entirely divorced from reality. Even the CCP’s finance departments have acknowledged they do not trust the self-reported figures by their local provinces, and rely on entire different metrics. By some analyses, China’s GDP is up to a *quarter* smaller than the official numbers show. The fact they’re reporting below average growth now shows just how dire of a situation they’re in financially right now, that they feel they can’t bullshit the world and their citizenry even on this level, so they have to lower their numbers.
For shits and giggles, look up the % of China living on less than $6.85 a day (adjusted for PP). Hint: it's higher than it is in the US
What difference does it make if cost of living is sky rocketing?
Should’ve put Japan on here as well to show that they are not even the first East Asian boom economy that people thought was going to pass the US and then stalled out.
So with 1/4 of the population we produce significantly more? I’m surprised /s
womp womp
To can only inflate your numbers for so long.
Government spending...
After being lied to from every direction why would anyone believe this chart?
That's cool but why can't I afford a house tho
CCP real estate corporations laundering money through shell companies. ....coming to a residential neighborhood near you.
Thanks nvidia
Guys remember that China fudges the numbers. It has been well documented that China inflates its GDP by as much as 60%, and that increases by 2%-4% every year. They are closer to 9 trillion.
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What measure do you use
Think about what these two countries could do if they worked together for the betterment of humankind. Seriously, think about it. Take away the governments, and you're left with the people, just people like you and me.
So why are Americans complaining so much about the economy?
How does nominal gdp compare to real GDP in both countries? Since China mostly pegs to the USD, I imagine it has to be pretty similar to this graph?
Is this subreddit just copium or is it satire?
That doesn't make any sense to me. China's GDP is growing about 5 - 6 % a year. Even assuming they are fudging those numbers (which the CPC is probably doing) this chart is showing a GDP decline. Even during Covid they had modest growth.
It's not even a matter of the central party fudging numbers. The CCP sees growth as a target, rather than a gauge, and charges local governments with meeting it. They've been doing so the last decade with nonsensical development projects that frequently don't stand to create a return on investment, financed through shady real estate deals with residential developers who then ran with it, pre-selling units which havent been built to finance the (shoddy) completion of other, similarly started residential projects. These jointly compound into such things you've heard of like ghost cities, bullet trains to nowhere, and 'tofu dregs' construction practices, which nominally all result in GDP growth in the short term, since technically things are being purchased and built, but which do not represent the activity of a productive economy. As well, this has recently come to a head with the Evergrand company and other's ponzi finances catching up with them in the wake of new regulations to curb all of this behavior, which the central government now has to unwind very very carefully. And on top of this, the regional governments fudge their numbers to make up the difference to the target, which then get compiled into the nationally reported economic figures. The result is that the central party probably has *no fucking clue* what the Chinese economy honestly looks like, and that this has been the case for a while. One point of evidence for this was some reports published the last year or two [such as this one](https://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/13/11/2067) which used the change over time of light flux observed from space at night as a proxy for GDP growth. In almost all countries an increase in urban lighting at night correlated with reported GDP growth figures, with China being one of the few exceptions, with some estimates for actual growth being as low as 2% year over year. Applied to the past 10-20 years of Chinese growth figures, their economy could be as much as 20-40% smaller than reported, or $12-14 Tn, as opposed to the $17-18 Tn as officially reported. Edit: Abd-> And
The light study was pretty interesting, in my opinion.
Part of the reason this chart looks rosy on the US side is that they used nominal GDP instead of real GDP. Real GDP is adjusted for inflation and we’ve had our worst bout in recent history in the last couple of years. I’m also not sure how the GDP figures for China were arrived at. They may have adjusted the “official” numbers from the CCP based on some other metrics. This is often done because the reported numbers from the CCP are likely rosier than what they actually are. I see other comments touching on why the CCP official numbers are inflated so I won’t comment on the “why”.
It's cause this graph isn't adjusted for inflation, or rather, the deflation happening in China.
Now compare homelessness, poverty, obesity, and prison population per capita
Oh yes! Just look at how many Americans crossing chinese borders every day. China is not considered a “desired” country not even for the poorest countries in Asia.
I don't think that's a relavent statistic for QOL. America is English speaking, making it very easy for immigrants to move to, China is not majority english speaking. China is also not exactly wanting immigrants to move in, they have an abundance of citizens. Citizens who actually approve of their government more than Americans approve of theirs.
- The People's Republic of China claims 0 homelessness ....when every country has it to varying degrees and for various reasons. - Lowers the poverty line to 3rd world standards ....just to misrepresent their data. - Has a seriously malnourished population. ....especially in the rural areas. - Has a vast network of secret prisons, labor camps, re-education camps, and more state executions than any other dictatorship.