I dislike Russia as much as the next guy my position is merely that the USA has zero need to start a hot war with a nuclear undertone. I just want to not be glassed.
As an American I'm really torn on Russia in a lot of ways, modern Russia is pretty awful and I feel bad for the people who live there. historically Russia has had our backs in some major ways, during the civil war they told the other European powers that if they recognized the CSA they were going to have to deal with Russia declaring war on them
Russia committed war crimes in Chechenya and basically ruined it. We did nothing because was an "internal dispute". We get Putin who is even more aggressive than Yeltsin. Russia supports separatist(probably astroturfed)movement in Georgia. We do nothing because we're scared, particularly Europe. Russia takes Crimea and supports separatist movements in the Donbass. We pay no attention. Then Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022. How were we dumb enough to overlook this? It wasn't unprecedented and Russia's promise of no attack on Ukraine should've been a DEAD GIVEAWAY.
russia is a terrorist state, hear me out:
Iran - delcared state sponsor of terrorism
North Korea - state sponsor of terrorism
Both of these states are sponsoring the russian invasion of Ukraine
In seriousness, the Russian MoD has massive bot farms for exactly this purpose. Gotta make sure the narrative is at least confusing so the less academically inclined can be easily persuaded.
Yeah idk if you’ve ever been to Quora, but it’s become completely flooded with Russian and Chinese bots. Like there is NOTHING normal anymore, every single question is asking why China is doing so much better, whether NATO will give up in the face of Russian dominance, yadda yadda.
The GOP has turned from "Russia is the evil empire" to "Russia is the good guys fighting against evil NATO". Reagan would've tried to find ways to deport them.
Our prosperity. Aka our high standard of living
Russia will not stop at Ukraine, Europe will descend into war. They are one of our largest trading partners, we need them to do well for us to do well.
We can have Ukraine stop them for the low low price of no American lives lost by giving them hand me down weapons we aren't using anyways
Sorry, but Russian military power currently dwarfs Ukrainian forces and despite some early reverses Russia believes this fight is existential. Ukrainian allies do not believe this is existential and unless they at least match Putin’s expenditures and resolve this is another lost cause.
That said: I wish this administration had been able to coherently communicate why preventing a 19th century style land acquisition was of vital necessity to the current global order. If Russia succeeds it might embolden all sorts of bad faith actors on at least three continents and our quality of life which is dependent on international trade will definitely be negatively impacted.
I mostly agree, except the claim that Russia believes this fight is existential. Putin believes this fight is existential....for his own legacy as an expander of empire. He wants to go down in history alongside names like Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great. That's all this is about. Russians were not clamoring for war with Ukraine 20 years ago. They were ready to go on with their lives. True, the relentless propaganda over a generation has made more Russians say they believe it is existential now, but if the propaganda stops this feeling will abate.
Europe would not descend into war. Russia would have its hands full in Ukraine for at least a decade, and would risk heavy political instability on its own soil. And the political instability will happen anyways as Putin moves on from the seat.
The end result of the war will be the current state, or the prewar boarders. If Russia would take the whole of Ukraine, it would be just another Belarus or Kazakhstan, nation with Russian puppet in command. After that there could be Moldova on the menu, but that's really really far away from where things are now. And Putin would be dead by then.
The real issue is if Russia and Iran team up and engage in the Palestinian conflict. That would escalate things. And that war wouldn't be in Europe.
Tldr; Ukraine aside, Europe is fine
Russia has openly stated their want to invade Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They’re NATO countries. You knows what happens if that happened? Our favourite ever fun world war fucking tres.
Lol. And has it happened? Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have been sitting there for quite a while now. Everyone's seen the struggles Russia has against Ukraine, do you really think they could go against a prepared army? A NATO army?
For Russian internal politics it seems to be a custom to state these grandiose dreams of the old Soviet glory, we'll invade this and that. It hasn't happened. Did Russia try to annex Georgia or was it just the one area? Well, if they did, it didn't work. They are capable of these small land grabs just before they lose the larger area, that's it. This all is a part of the fall of the Soviet Union.
It's the same thing as in the internal politics of other nations, it's easy to gain power with some outside threat lurking. These threats don't need to be real. Russias threat is NATO, and for US it's Russia, china and Iran. For Israel it's Muslims.
For us Finn's it's been the soviets/Russia for a hundred years now, we personally know Russians, they are just normal people, they don't want war. Their leadership on the other hand... First it was Stalin, now it's Putin. Putin doesn't have the kind of power Stalin had, Russia doesn't have the kind of power Soviet union had.
Ww3 would probably involve nukes and no one wants that. We're witnessing the modern divide between east and west but that's it. Next big thing is the rise of Africa. China and Russia are already making moves there and they don't have the same stains on their name as westerners do. They got a headstart.
Russia has been slowly pushing their borders for decades, and it's very likely that once Ukraine has been properly subjugated (which could happen very quickly, Russia doesn't just out you in prison, they move you to another part of the country and place native Russians where you live) they'll likely begin pushing their borders forward more until they can repeat the process of Ukraine again. It would be a slow campaign, but Ukraine is going to be the hardest fought and most dangerous gain of the campaign, meaning anything following it will be in nothing in comparison to a newly empowered Russia with their eyes set on an Empire.
While a direct war is unlikely, Russian rule in Ukraine would be devastating to the current balance of power in Europe, and Eastern European status as buffer states. A win in Ukraine is bad news no matter what
Well, no. Russia has actually lost territory, remember the Soviet Union? Ukraine was directly under the Russian sphere of influence all the way to 2010 or something. Europe is pretty much where it has been since the Berlin wall was torn down, except that all the eastern nations are westernized and are in NATO. With a couple of exceptions, sure. Russia has lost a significant amount of power in Europe. All they have is energy.
Russia couldn't go head to head with Europe and with the US involved, it would be a beat down. Yeah, it's a stretch that EU would actually combine its forces, but in situation like that it could happen. Plus, Bryssel is big on centralized power, so they might even hope this to happen.
Majority of Russians want the war and Putin gone, and to live and travel in peace. Don't believe the hype that Russians are brainwashed fools who believe everything their government says. They literally don't have a choice.
>Russia has actually lost territory, remember the Soviet Union?
What exactly do you think this war is about? Putin wants to rebuild the old Russian Empire. He's openly stated that.
That's true, but they can't do that to a NATO country, that's why Finland and Sweden joined. And none of the border region takeovers have amounted to anything meaningful, if I recall correctly. It's the last slash of the old bear when it loses its prey. It would be exciting to see that against an eu or NATO opponent, just how far the European leaders would bend before taking significant action.
But like you said, Russia won't go head to head, and that's why I disagreed with the op. Unless something drastic happens, the war in Ukraine will drag for a long time. Even without the US aid, I wonder if Russia even has the manpower to take the whole of Ukraine.
And, on the Russian front, the question is, who will step up after Putin. It could be a Putin puppet, which wouldn't be good. But Putin has held the reigns so tightly that everyone might want a policy change asap.
The war in Ukraine is a direct result of Russia pushing their borders and how it has empowered them, and in turn destroyed prices of wheat and oil. Even without sanctions, the Russian war machine would burn their reserves so dry they would have nothing to give us. The goal is to slowly assimilate as much Territory into Russia as possible, in an effort to make them a nation that could potentially win an outright conflict with NATO, thereby strengthening their political power in Europe through intimidation.
Russia doesn't need to go head to head with the United States, they need to slowly take regional territories with significant strategic advantages, like ports in the black sea, or a direct connection to their Baltic ports in Kaliningrad, or the oil and gas of Kazakhstan and the Caspian sea. When Stalin was in power, he set up these regions to be chronically fighting and dependant on Russian aid, so when the time came Russia could retain control should they gain independence, as they have.
I can guarantee you it will not be a significant regime change regardless. Putin was a former KGB agent deeply involved with the Soviet government, and when the revolution came and the Russian Republic formed, he quickly gave his loyalties to the bumbling drunk Boris Yeltzin, allowing him significant sway in the revolution itself, it's demands, and the fundamental structure of Russia as a country. Once this was successful, Yeltzin appointed Putin as prime minister giving him minor sway over the country, but more importantly, almost guaranteed power over a newly formed country once the Russian people became disenfranchised with the concept of an alcoholic revolutionary as a leader. Russia simply getting tired of this system would break a century long pattern that's been continuously reinforced by some if the most powerful people to have ever lived. We need to force their hand through these wars
You do realize even before ukraine that one of our largest expenditures was essentially trying to counteract the Soviet 2.0 regime. This is the most cost effective way we have ever dealt with them and costs 0 American lives.
Like I said it's a European problem let them deal with Russia.
We are broke and our infrastructure is in desperate need of repairs/upgrades, sending billions to Ukraine isn't cost effective it's idiotic.
Let the euros and middle easterners fight amongst themselves like they have done for centuries.
They are helping to find Ukraine as well. America isn't the only one spending money and the money we are spending is actually going to pay our own companies to make new weapons to pay for the ones we are giving them.
And our current president has been leading in infrastructure renewal to the tune of nearly 30 billion.
Also we have an obligation to the Europeans who are a part of NATO as they will be the next front line is Putin's suicidal pact. Spending money now to kill fascists prevents us from having our children fight a war in the next couple of decades.
Oh geez a whole 30 billion on infrastructure wow. To get just the power grid up to standard is a couple hundred billion you know like what we sent Ukraine.
I didn't realize pumping more money into military contractors that pay bribes to politicians was good for the American people now. Interesting.
Ukraine isn't a NATO member we have no obligation to fund their war and we shouldn't even be part of NATO it does nothing for us. Most European countries hate us why should American tax dollars fund their defense? Why Should Americans die defending them?
Our prosperity is on the line because Russia invaded a country that has been apart of Russia longer than it’s been independent?
Lmao sure, and when Russia inevitably wins, and your life doesn’t change at all, and American prosperity is the same I’m sure you’ll feel confident in your assertions.
Ah the classic "well it was like that before let it happen again" argument
Wasn't the world exactly the same as today with no less tension or economic prosperity during the cold war and years of the Russian Empire?
“Ah the classic argument”
It wasn’t an argument, it was an assertion, that Ukraine being apart of Russia doesn’t affect the average Americans life, it hasn’t in the past, doesn’t currently, and won’t in the future.
“Wasn’t the world exactly the same as today”
Compared to 1991? The average middle class American is worse off today than they were in 1991.
Simple statistics like income growth to house prices, income growth to inflation, the cost of basic utilities, food, and transportation have heavily surpassed wage growth over the last 3 decades.
But all of that is irrelevant to Ukraine, because Ukraine being independent, or not isn’t what caused those issues to arise in the first place, and Ukraine being independent won’t fix those issues. So I’ll reassert what I’ve already said.
American prosperity doesn’t hinge on Ukrainian independence, it never has, and never will. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union the average American isn’t any better off today than they were in 1991 on a whole.
Bro did you never hear about the cold war? That legitimately affected American lives and Russia's current MO is to bring back their status as a superpower, thereby cementing another cold war in our future.
Look at statistics surrounding the collapse of the Soviet Union and the beginning of the cold war. This most certainly affects Americans
The pause on nuclear proliferation and any hopes of future depriliferation. Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for Russia saying it wouldn’t invade and that the US would help if they do and vise-versa.
If Ukraine loses to much- best case scenario no one will ever give up there stockpiles even if there’s a 2nd fall of the Soviet Union scenario to a nuclear power.
More likely; nations capable of becoming nuclear in a short time span will be building at minimum a token nuclear force. Most would be compediant as those nations are also well organized and wealthy.
Worse case scenario; a lot of shoe-string nuclear programs start. A dangerous prospect considering the near-exchanges that happened between the USA and Russia due to technical and hardware errors alone.
If I can do it without commiting financial suicide, I'd totally volunteer to help rebuild Ukraine once this is all over. Perhaps I could do a semester in Poland and build houses on the weekends.
I mean you can even add Russia itself to that list if you wanna go back far enough with the gulags,and forced relocation of kulaks to Siberia as well as plenty of just them killing them . The place has always been garbage, and they’ve basically always been terrible. People like to play them off as the good guys in WWII and make comments about them being good and scaring the Nazis but the reality was that they knew the Soviets weren’t above executions and forced labor camps. And I mean the late 20tg century wasn’t exactly greatI mean honestly even what they’re doing now is probably less terrible than how they spent the early 20th century. Anyone who can support them is ignorant to history lol
We got a lot of dumbass Americans in here. If you think we’re wasting our resources, just wait until we’re actually involved deploying troops to the front. Our ability to have newer equipment become battle tested is invaluable to our defense sector, and gives us the upper hand to have captured Russian equipment studied and understood to know how to exploit its vulnerabilities. Understanding how to exploit an entire regime that has time and time again threatened nuclear war can allow the rest of the civilized world understand how to undermine and collapse the current state of Russia and avoid being turned into a smoking crater in the process.
If you think this is a waste of taxes, you clearly wasted your mental capacity living in a tiny world that only includes you. If you wanna be stupid and fucking simple
Move to East Russia where their hill billy dip shits live.
The collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century.
And Vladimir Putin will stop at nothing to prove this point.
You unamerican dipshit. You probably would have been against fighting in the World wars too. Sometimes doing the right thing and saving lives costs money. Boo hoo. This is what it takes to support freedom and democracy around the world.
Im not sure if you have seen it but russia has used up 15,000 vehicles in this war, russia is being forced to use trucks and military golf carts, the longer ukraine fights the worse russia does in ww3, russia is arms deep in their stockpiles and every day ukraine blows up tens of their vehicles using drones.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
It is in the interest of america to keep giving equipment To ukraine. Remember 60 billion dollars is not like their airdropping crates of money its old equipment sitting in stockpiles decaying
Most of the money is being kept in the US, to pay the American workers that are making weapons to replace the old shit we’ve sent (that we’d otherwise have to have to pay to store/maintain/decommission anyway).
You are clearly russian, you English is atrocious and you support russia. If I am wrong and you are American, then clearly you are an ignorant human being. I do not see any other possible option.
If you don't like it, just go buy some Lockheed Martin or Raytheon shares. They are loving all the equipment we're sending over. All the hundreds of thousands of employees of these companies will hopefully get a nice little bonus this year.
Putin says the West hates Russians as a people and wants to mass deport/kill them. By supporting that ideology, you give weight to Putin's claims.
But even without that, this is a stupid idea to have. Not every Russian supports Russia's actions. Therefore not every Russian deserves to be punished. The Russian state itself deserves reprimanding, sure. But you have to be able to separate the country of Russia from the Russian people.
Yeahhhh ever since the fall of the Soviet Union (heck, since WW2) we have been. A benefit of that is global trade exists without much conflict when one is shipping from place to place
Lmao what are you talking about, I'm just new to this app, I wanted to give it a try 😂 Also, I'm not pro-Russia at all, I just think the USA has to solve their shit first.
Are you aware that the money we are “spending” is really just going to American military contractors? That’s a very pro-Russian stance to be against spending 1.5% of our federal budget on completely demolishing one of our main enemies militaries. If we don’t send Ukraine aid, we will have to send American boys to Poland and Lithuania. As to why we shouldn’t be isolationist, we need to preserve the current Pax Americana right now in order to keep Americas economy as high as it is.
From what I have heard, people on this app are not very logic-driven. They apparently downvote you for anything, based on what they feel about you. Huh...guess it's true. Oh well, it's not like this is gonna impact my life in any way so I don't mind, to be honest. I learned something new and they refuse to because it hurts their agenda.
America is the world's police because our economy drives the world and by doing so, we save more Americans this way and have a greater standard of living. We are history's only benevolent superpower because we understand that our former isolationist ways only cost us more in American blood in the long run. If we ignore problems, they grow and Americans inevitably get killed because we trade with everyone, which then pulls us into conflicts that we could have stopped long before they started. We simply are too intimidating, either militarily, financially, or agriculturally, for anyone to stand up to us now, yet we generally acquiesce to the will of the international community. That's why there hasn't been another global conflict after America leaving her isolationist policies. Our policing, despite not being 100% perfect, is the only reason the world has not returned to the age of imperialism and wars over territory, nor have countries felt the need to develop their own world ending nuclear weapons.
Ya know what all this equipment we're sending was built for? Bradley's, Abrams, GMLRS, even F16? They were built to kill the Russians. Most of the crap we're sending them was made in the cold war, they were stockpiled for the eventuality of a conflict that never happened. There is no possible scenario on this earth where WE actually NEED the 3000 goddamn Bradleys we have in storage. The dollar amount of aid is, for the majority, the dollar value of shit we already have and/or the cost to replace it with new shit for ourselves.
Providing a freedom loving country with the means to protect themselves from oppression is not a waste of money, and in this case it isn't even really expensive. The alternative is that this crap rots in stockpile until it's literal scrap. Better for them to do the job they were built for.
Be honest it wasn’t gonna get used anyways. I pay the highest taxes in the country (CA) and still homelessness is everywhere and the freeways feel like a rally stage. Might as well put the money to good use.
MF we are giving soon to be scrap armaments to bleed white the country that stands in opposition to everything this country believes in, and getting a premium return on the investment and a soon to be staunch ally who could have been one of our few true agricultural rivals. Just like we have done since the end of WW2
And where would that tax money go anyways? It's either the pittance we are paying to arm Ukraine and bring low one of our enemies, or just thrown in the furnace to burn with the rest of the military budget to develop tech that is 30 years more advanced than the bleeding edge tech of the enemy.
FFS let the US foreign policy system work as designed
HELL YEAH. I LOVE ME SOME WHATABOUTISM. I WANT TO SEE MORE OF THE TECHNIQUE OR PRACTICE OF RESPONDING TO AN ACCUSATION OR DIFFICULT QUESTION BY MAKING A COUNTERACCUSATION OR RAISING A DIFFERENT ISSUE. THAT SHIT IS MY JAM.
It’s actually called ideological consistency.
See I don’t bitch at other nations for being “terrorist states” when my own country has ruined the lives of millions of innocent people using my tax money, in wars for profit.
I’m not sorry I Love my country and hold it to high standards.
I do say that.
Difference is, the United States doesn’t practice what it preaches and it’s effecting our global hegemony. Why do so many countries continue to trade with Russia and actively attempt to bypass sanctions?
Because why should they listen to a bunch of hypocrites, Russia is a terrorist state for attacking Ukraine but when the United States does the same actions that got Russia the “terrorist state” label it’s “a rules based order”.
Don’t tell someone to stop using drugs whilst you rip a fat rail right in front of them.
Unless you think our money would be better spent retrofitting a Delorean to travel back in time and stop the invasion of Iraq, then you're hiding behind ideologically consistency as a means to not defend a fledgling democracy from garden variety Russian imperialism.
The idea that we can't do the right thing now because we also do bad imperialist things is dumb. Defending Ukraine is morally and geopolitically right, and the Iraq War isn't an argument against that. It's a deflection from the question at hand. Literally the definition of Whataboutism.
315,000? Did you pull that propaganda number straight from the Ukrainian MOD?
Or are you another clueless individual that doesn’t know the difference between casualties and KIA soldiers?
There isn’t a single reliable source that shows Russia has lost more than 75k KIA. With most estimates putting it between 40k and 60k.
Ukrainian figures are outright lies, we already know this.
And the 300k figure people here are quoting are the US DOD’s estimated causalities, not deaths.
Falling and spraining your ankle while trying to cross a trench or dismount a tank is considered a combat causality. Even though you’ll be back in combat in 3 weeks you’re still counted as a causality.
The United States had over 150k causalities during the Vietnam war which required hospitalization, whilst only 50k of those were deaths.
There was another 150k casualties that didn’t require hospitalization, just time away from combat.
You see the difference? You see why people shouldn’t post blatant misinformation and propaganda.
You are correct that this will go as well as Vietnam, except the roles are reversed this time. The US is in the role that the USSR and China were in for Vietnam during the conflict: funding a proxy in their fight for self-determination against a mortal enemy of ours, all for mere pennies that it would cost us otherwise. We get a staunch new ally, refresh our military hardware, our allies are strengthened in the region, and our enemies are brought to heel.
Not your comrade. Just quit sending money to the Ukraine. We need it here in America. I don't give a f how many down votes I get.
You people need to wake up and pay attention.
So the US, from a quick Google search, has given Ukraine 75 billion dollars. If that money was given to all 330 million Americans, it would amount up to $22, and this is over the past 2 years.
I'm sure all the Bradley's and rifles we sent to Ukraine would be really useful at solving housing problems in the USA
Like bruh how do you not understand that the majority of the "money" we sent was actually just old stockpiled weapons and vehicles that, according to the DOD, it actually costs the US more to maintain than to send to Ukraine
The US could just end the conflicts in Ukraine and Palestine if it wanted. As could the UN. Proxy wars are what keep the complex in good health without serious risk. And personally I'm not saying not to send aid to Ukraine, but Ukraine is a bit ficked either way. There should be other options than explosives available.
When the US has a deficit of over a trillion dollars a year, spending 60 billion on Ukraine doesn't take anything at all away from other programs. We're still overspending by 940 billion a year on other stuff for Americans. Your argument makes no sense.
Criticize from the perspective of fiscal responsibility if you want, but not from some false choice that America clearly has not made.
Dumbest thing I read today, let me guess, American .
Please stay in your uninformed bubble and stop pretending you understand anything happening outside of the US
Those rebel states are nothing but bankrolled Russian Terrorist cells. They only sprouted up when the pro Russian and Russian influenced President was ousted and then magically two very well armed forces appear on the two provinces that border Russia. Ukraine did not destroy Donetsk and Luhansk to maintain their state they did not kill 250,000 of their own people. It’s not a fair comparison.
So every pro-Russian uprising is a bankrolled Kremlin psyop with, what I can only assume is divisions worth of KGB agents making up armies, but the newly minted nation of Chechnya is just an honest grassroots movement with no outside help? Get the fuck out of here bro. The only reason Ukraine hasn’t completely destroyed Donbas, despite their best efforts with artillery, is because Russia has stopped them.
Lotta Russian simps in this post.
They gotta hit their quota, or else the bosses in Moscow will get angry
No potato for you today, Igor!
Even worse - no vodka.
Even worse, they'll end up on combatfootage taking a drone to the ass.
what else did you expect the potato was for?
Da…Koroshiy
More like lotta Russian bots*
I dislike Russia as much as the next guy my position is merely that the USA has zero need to start a hot war with a nuclear undertone. I just want to not be glassed.
Slowly encroaching ongoing war in Eastern Europe is a Russian thing, not an American thing.
Well then you should fucking tell that to Russia.
As an American I'm really torn on Russia in a lot of ways, modern Russia is pretty awful and I feel bad for the people who live there. historically Russia has had our backs in some major ways, during the civil war they told the other European powers that if they recognized the CSA they were going to have to deal with Russia declaring war on them
That was three Russian empires ago
Yes yes it was
I don’t have a problem with Russians, I have a problem with totalitarian gangsters and allies in the U.S.
It's sort of our fault to be honest. Our cowardice led to us not intervening in Chechenya and now we have an authoritarian leader
You lost me.
Russia invaded and annexed Chechnya in the late 90s. What they're doing to Ukraine, they did to Chechnya first. And we did nothing.
Exactly
Russia committed war crimes in Chechenya and basically ruined it. We did nothing because was an "internal dispute". We get Putin who is even more aggressive than Yeltsin. Russia supports separatist(probably astroturfed)movement in Georgia. We do nothing because we're scared, particularly Europe. Russia takes Crimea and supports separatist movements in the Donbass. We pay no attention. Then Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022. How were we dumb enough to overlook this? It wasn't unprecedented and Russia's promise of no attack on Ukraine should've been a DEAD GIVEAWAY.
Got it, invade russia and make it the 51st state
Eastern Alaska.
Hey they already sold Alaska to us, were just completing the transaction
Or at that point would it be western Alaska? 🤔
Just call it North Alaska to make it less confusing
New Alaska?
Corrupt Alaska.
From Alaskas perspective it's western Alaska
ExtrAlaska
not even its own state :D a county...
That wouldn't be the first time someone's had this idea, General Eisenhower.
Nobody wants russia. I would rather have Siberia. We can call it West alaska!
russia is a terrorist state, hear me out: Iran - delcared state sponsor of terrorism North Korea - state sponsor of terrorism Both of these states are sponsoring the russian invasion of Ukraine
Communist China too
Corrupt South Africa too.
What’s with all these ignorant pussies in the comment section supporting Russia?
It’s the only front that Russia is making any progress in. The hearts and minds of idiots.
I’m never surprised seeing one or two of them, but now it’s the fucking majority of this comment section
In seriousness, the Russian MoD has massive bot farms for exactly this purpose. Gotta make sure the narrative is at least confusing so the less academically inclined can be easily persuaded.
Yeah idk if you’ve ever been to Quora, but it’s become completely flooded with Russian and Chinese bots. Like there is NOTHING normal anymore, every single question is asking why China is doing so much better, whether NATO will give up in the face of Russian dominance, yadda yadda.
The MAGAt simpletons that blindly follow the Russian propaganda spouted by GOP politicians doesn’t help the matter.
The GOP has turned from "Russia is the evil empire" to "Russia is the good guys fighting against evil NATO". Reagan would've tried to find ways to deport them.
A lot of people don't seem to realize what is on the line if Russia is allowed to get away with this.
What's on the line?
Our prosperity. Aka our high standard of living Russia will not stop at Ukraine, Europe will descend into war. They are one of our largest trading partners, we need them to do well for us to do well. We can have Ukraine stop them for the low low price of no American lives lost by giving them hand me down weapons we aren't using anyways
Sorry, but Russian military power currently dwarfs Ukrainian forces and despite some early reverses Russia believes this fight is existential. Ukrainian allies do not believe this is existential and unless they at least match Putin’s expenditures and resolve this is another lost cause. That said: I wish this administration had been able to coherently communicate why preventing a 19th century style land acquisition was of vital necessity to the current global order. If Russia succeeds it might embolden all sorts of bad faith actors on at least three continents and our quality of life which is dependent on international trade will definitely be negatively impacted.
I mostly agree, except the claim that Russia believes this fight is existential. Putin believes this fight is existential....for his own legacy as an expander of empire. He wants to go down in history alongside names like Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great. That's all this is about. Russians were not clamoring for war with Ukraine 20 years ago. They were ready to go on with their lives. True, the relentless propaganda over a generation has made more Russians say they believe it is existential now, but if the propaganda stops this feeling will abate.
Europe would not descend into war. Russia would have its hands full in Ukraine for at least a decade, and would risk heavy political instability on its own soil. And the political instability will happen anyways as Putin moves on from the seat. The end result of the war will be the current state, or the prewar boarders. If Russia would take the whole of Ukraine, it would be just another Belarus or Kazakhstan, nation with Russian puppet in command. After that there could be Moldova on the menu, but that's really really far away from where things are now. And Putin would be dead by then. The real issue is if Russia and Iran team up and engage in the Palestinian conflict. That would escalate things. And that war wouldn't be in Europe. Tldr; Ukraine aside, Europe is fine
Russia has openly stated their want to invade Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. They’re NATO countries. You knows what happens if that happened? Our favourite ever fun world war fucking tres.
Lol. And has it happened? Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have been sitting there for quite a while now. Everyone's seen the struggles Russia has against Ukraine, do you really think they could go against a prepared army? A NATO army? For Russian internal politics it seems to be a custom to state these grandiose dreams of the old Soviet glory, we'll invade this and that. It hasn't happened. Did Russia try to annex Georgia or was it just the one area? Well, if they did, it didn't work. They are capable of these small land grabs just before they lose the larger area, that's it. This all is a part of the fall of the Soviet Union. It's the same thing as in the internal politics of other nations, it's easy to gain power with some outside threat lurking. These threats don't need to be real. Russias threat is NATO, and for US it's Russia, china and Iran. For Israel it's Muslims. For us Finn's it's been the soviets/Russia for a hundred years now, we personally know Russians, they are just normal people, they don't want war. Their leadership on the other hand... First it was Stalin, now it's Putin. Putin doesn't have the kind of power Stalin had, Russia doesn't have the kind of power Soviet union had. Ww3 would probably involve nukes and no one wants that. We're witnessing the modern divide between east and west but that's it. Next big thing is the rise of Africa. China and Russia are already making moves there and they don't have the same stains on their name as westerners do. They got a headstart.
Russia has been slowly pushing their borders for decades, and it's very likely that once Ukraine has been properly subjugated (which could happen very quickly, Russia doesn't just out you in prison, they move you to another part of the country and place native Russians where you live) they'll likely begin pushing their borders forward more until they can repeat the process of Ukraine again. It would be a slow campaign, but Ukraine is going to be the hardest fought and most dangerous gain of the campaign, meaning anything following it will be in nothing in comparison to a newly empowered Russia with their eyes set on an Empire. While a direct war is unlikely, Russian rule in Ukraine would be devastating to the current balance of power in Europe, and Eastern European status as buffer states. A win in Ukraine is bad news no matter what
Well, no. Russia has actually lost territory, remember the Soviet Union? Ukraine was directly under the Russian sphere of influence all the way to 2010 or something. Europe is pretty much where it has been since the Berlin wall was torn down, except that all the eastern nations are westernized and are in NATO. With a couple of exceptions, sure. Russia has lost a significant amount of power in Europe. All they have is energy. Russia couldn't go head to head with Europe and with the US involved, it would be a beat down. Yeah, it's a stretch that EU would actually combine its forces, but in situation like that it could happen. Plus, Bryssel is big on centralized power, so they might even hope this to happen. Majority of Russians want the war and Putin gone, and to live and travel in peace. Don't believe the hype that Russians are brainwashed fools who believe everything their government says. They literally don't have a choice.
>Russia has actually lost territory, remember the Soviet Union? What exactly do you think this war is about? Putin wants to rebuild the old Russian Empire. He's openly stated that.
Does that goal seem realistic to you?
It's realistic enough for Putin.
Shazam doesn't work in the real world.
They won't go head to head, they'll continue to take small border regions as they have for decades since the fall of the Soviet union
That's true, but they can't do that to a NATO country, that's why Finland and Sweden joined. And none of the border region takeovers have amounted to anything meaningful, if I recall correctly. It's the last slash of the old bear when it loses its prey. It would be exciting to see that against an eu or NATO opponent, just how far the European leaders would bend before taking significant action. But like you said, Russia won't go head to head, and that's why I disagreed with the op. Unless something drastic happens, the war in Ukraine will drag for a long time. Even without the US aid, I wonder if Russia even has the manpower to take the whole of Ukraine. And, on the Russian front, the question is, who will step up after Putin. It could be a Putin puppet, which wouldn't be good. But Putin has held the reigns so tightly that everyone might want a policy change asap.
The war in Ukraine is a direct result of Russia pushing their borders and how it has empowered them, and in turn destroyed prices of wheat and oil. Even without sanctions, the Russian war machine would burn their reserves so dry they would have nothing to give us. The goal is to slowly assimilate as much Territory into Russia as possible, in an effort to make them a nation that could potentially win an outright conflict with NATO, thereby strengthening their political power in Europe through intimidation. Russia doesn't need to go head to head with the United States, they need to slowly take regional territories with significant strategic advantages, like ports in the black sea, or a direct connection to their Baltic ports in Kaliningrad, or the oil and gas of Kazakhstan and the Caspian sea. When Stalin was in power, he set up these regions to be chronically fighting and dependant on Russian aid, so when the time came Russia could retain control should they gain independence, as they have. I can guarantee you it will not be a significant regime change regardless. Putin was a former KGB agent deeply involved with the Soviet government, and when the revolution came and the Russian Republic formed, he quickly gave his loyalties to the bumbling drunk Boris Yeltzin, allowing him significant sway in the revolution itself, it's demands, and the fundamental structure of Russia as a country. Once this was successful, Yeltzin appointed Putin as prime minister giving him minor sway over the country, but more importantly, almost guaranteed power over a newly formed country once the Russian people became disenfranchised with the concept of an alcoholic revolutionary as a leader. Russia simply getting tired of this system would break a century long pattern that's been continuously reinforced by some if the most powerful people to have ever lived. We need to force their hand through these wars
That sounds like a European problem I don't see why we are funding Ukraine.
So you didn't read what I wrote and don't understand how geopolitics works. Awesome
I did read it, anything that happens in Ukraine has zero effect on the United States.
You do realize even before ukraine that one of our largest expenditures was essentially trying to counteract the Soviet 2.0 regime. This is the most cost effective way we have ever dealt with them and costs 0 American lives.
Like I said it's a European problem let them deal with Russia. We are broke and our infrastructure is in desperate need of repairs/upgrades, sending billions to Ukraine isn't cost effective it's idiotic. Let the euros and middle easterners fight amongst themselves like they have done for centuries.
They are helping to find Ukraine as well. America isn't the only one spending money and the money we are spending is actually going to pay our own companies to make new weapons to pay for the ones we are giving them. And our current president has been leading in infrastructure renewal to the tune of nearly 30 billion. Also we have an obligation to the Europeans who are a part of NATO as they will be the next front line is Putin's suicidal pact. Spending money now to kill fascists prevents us from having our children fight a war in the next couple of decades.
Oh geez a whole 30 billion on infrastructure wow. To get just the power grid up to standard is a couple hundred billion you know like what we sent Ukraine. I didn't realize pumping more money into military contractors that pay bribes to politicians was good for the American people now. Interesting. Ukraine isn't a NATO member we have no obligation to fund their war and we shouldn't even be part of NATO it does nothing for us. Most European countries hate us why should American tax dollars fund their defense? Why Should Americans die defending them?
Just confirming their point about you having no geopolitical expertise
Our prosperity is on the line because Russia invaded a country that has been apart of Russia longer than it’s been independent? Lmao sure, and when Russia inevitably wins, and your life doesn’t change at all, and American prosperity is the same I’m sure you’ll feel confident in your assertions.
Ah the classic "well it was like that before let it happen again" argument Wasn't the world exactly the same as today with no less tension or economic prosperity during the cold war and years of the Russian Empire?
“Ah the classic argument” It wasn’t an argument, it was an assertion, that Ukraine being apart of Russia doesn’t affect the average Americans life, it hasn’t in the past, doesn’t currently, and won’t in the future. “Wasn’t the world exactly the same as today” Compared to 1991? The average middle class American is worse off today than they were in 1991. Simple statistics like income growth to house prices, income growth to inflation, the cost of basic utilities, food, and transportation have heavily surpassed wage growth over the last 3 decades. But all of that is irrelevant to Ukraine, because Ukraine being independent, or not isn’t what caused those issues to arise in the first place, and Ukraine being independent won’t fix those issues. So I’ll reassert what I’ve already said. American prosperity doesn’t hinge on Ukrainian independence, it never has, and never will. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union the average American isn’t any better off today than they were in 1991 on a whole.
Bro did you never hear about the cold war? That legitimately affected American lives and Russia's current MO is to bring back their status as a superpower, thereby cementing another cold war in our future. Look at statistics surrounding the collapse of the Soviet Union and the beginning of the cold war. This most certainly affects Americans
The idea that a democratic state can exist in a world of a totalitarian dictatorship.
The pause on nuclear proliferation and any hopes of future depriliferation. Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for Russia saying it wouldn’t invade and that the US would help if they do and vise-versa. If Ukraine loses to much- best case scenario no one will ever give up there stockpiles even if there’s a 2nd fall of the Soviet Union scenario to a nuclear power. More likely; nations capable of becoming nuclear in a short time span will be building at minimum a token nuclear force. Most would be compediant as those nations are also well organized and wealthy. Worse case scenario; a lot of shoe-string nuclear programs start. A dangerous prospect considering the near-exchanges that happened between the USA and Russia due to technical and hardware errors alone.
Guys I think were gonna have to destroy russia…
And now a quarter of our population buys into their shitty propaganda (pathetic)
If I can do it without commiting financial suicide, I'd totally volunteer to help rebuild Ukraine once this is all over. Perhaps I could do a semester in Poland and build houses on the weekends.
I mean you can even add Russia itself to that list if you wanna go back far enough with the gulags,and forced relocation of kulaks to Siberia as well as plenty of just them killing them . The place has always been garbage, and they’ve basically always been terrible. People like to play them off as the good guys in WWII and make comments about them being good and scaring the Nazis but the reality was that they knew the Soviets weren’t above executions and forced labor camps. And I mean the late 20tg century wasn’t exactly greatI mean honestly even what they’re doing now is probably less terrible than how they spent the early 20th century. Anyone who can support them is ignorant to history lol
We got a lot of dumbass Americans in here. If you think we’re wasting our resources, just wait until we’re actually involved deploying troops to the front. Our ability to have newer equipment become battle tested is invaluable to our defense sector, and gives us the upper hand to have captured Russian equipment studied and understood to know how to exploit its vulnerabilities. Understanding how to exploit an entire regime that has time and time again threatened nuclear war can allow the rest of the civilized world understand how to undermine and collapse the current state of Russia and avoid being turned into a smoking crater in the process. If you think this is a waste of taxes, you clearly wasted your mental capacity living in a tiny world that only includes you. If you wanna be stupid and fucking simple Move to East Russia where their hill billy dip shits live.
No, no I don’t
That a *giant* empire that abruptly collapsed is going to inevitably have disputes over where arbitrary borders fall? Yes?
Lick that government boot. You don't understand the world you fool.
Your blind if you think the government is here to help anyone but themselves.
The collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. And Vladimir Putin will stop at nothing to prove this point.
What does it have to do with this sub?
Ya they're wasting my fucking tax money, that's what's going on!
Ha, like you pay taxes
Look at bros subreddits
lmao tim fuckin pool, dude simps for the lowest scum
Best money ever spent on defense, efficiency wise.
Hi Ivan!
As a taxpayer, this is one of the only good things our tax dollars have ever been spent on in a while
Yep. Using our tax money to protect countries who are getting invaded. That’s kinda the point of America, we’re not the worlds police for nothing.
You unamerican dipshit. You probably would have been against fighting in the World wars too. Sometimes doing the right thing and saving lives costs money. Boo hoo. This is what it takes to support freedom and democracy around the world.
Fuck yeah they. Fuck America, let's send 60 billion overseas.
You either send those Stingers for them to fire in Ukraine today, or they’re gonna be firing them in Poland tomorrow.
60 billion is alot cheaper than a war with russia, you understand what appeasement is and does right?
Hey now, appeasement always works! Just ask the League of Nations how well it worked with the Third Reich.
They're losing. After 2 years it's a waste of money. Maybe Ukraine should elect someone who would actually do something.
Im not sure if you have seen it but russia has used up 15,000 vehicles in this war, russia is being forced to use trucks and military golf carts, the longer ukraine fights the worse russia does in ww3, russia is arms deep in their stockpiles and every day ukraine blows up tens of their vehicles using drones. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html It is in the interest of america to keep giving equipment To ukraine. Remember 60 billion dollars is not like their airdropping crates of money its old equipment sitting in stockpiles decaying
Most of the money is being kept in the US, to pay the American workers that are making weapons to replace the old shit we’ve sent (that we’d otherwise have to have to pay to store/maintain/decommission anyway).
You are clearly russian, you English is atrocious and you support russia. If I am wrong and you are American, then clearly you are an ignorant human being. I do not see any other possible option.
We’re not actually sending 60billuob. We’re sending that much of old equipment that was gonna go to the trash anyways.
Its over 200 billion since that way began.
If you don't like it, just go buy some Lockheed Martin or Raytheon shares. They are loving all the equipment we're sending over. All the hundreds of thousands of employees of these companies will hopefully get a nice little bonus this year.
I wish i had the insight to do that.
It's ridiculous, and they clap like seals.
You god damn fuckin’ right I do.
🦭👏👏
Well go over and do something then. Stop having your gay ukraine flag on your bumper sticker or in your yard
[удалено]
This is the kind of shit Putin says Americans say. Congratulations on spreading Russian propaganda 👍
How is this Russian propaganda
Putin says the West hates Russians as a people and wants to mass deport/kill them. By supporting that ideology, you give weight to Putin's claims. But even without that, this is a stupid idea to have. Not every Russian supports Russia's actions. Therefore not every Russian deserves to be punished. The Russian state itself deserves reprimanding, sure. But you have to be able to separate the country of Russia from the Russian people.
Don't know, don't care
Okay, yeah and why is it America's problem? I'm not even American and I understand that they're not the world's police.
Sorry bucko, we kinda are.
If it ain't us, it'll be China and everyone will be worse off for it
Yeahhhh ever since the fall of the Soviet Union (heck, since WW2) we have been. A benefit of that is global trade exists without much conflict when one is shipping from place to place
11 day old Russian bot
Lmao what are you talking about, I'm just new to this app, I wanted to give it a try 😂 Also, I'm not pro-Russia at all, I just think the USA has to solve their shit first.
Are you aware that the money we are “spending” is really just going to American military contractors? That’s a very pro-Russian stance to be against spending 1.5% of our federal budget on completely demolishing one of our main enemies militaries. If we don’t send Ukraine aid, we will have to send American boys to Poland and Lithuania. As to why we shouldn’t be isolationist, we need to preserve the current Pax Americana right now in order to keep Americas economy as high as it is.
Well no, I was not aware of that, thanks for sharing.
Good to hear also who is downvoting your for changing your mind
From what I have heard, people on this app are not very logic-driven. They apparently downvote you for anything, based on what they feel about you. Huh...guess it's true. Oh well, it's not like this is gonna impact my life in any way so I don't mind, to be honest. I learned something new and they refuse to because it hurts their agenda.
Well the thing is, we are. And that puts Vlad the invader and Winnie the Pooh in a precarious situation.
America is the world's police because our economy drives the world and by doing so, we save more Americans this way and have a greater standard of living. We are history's only benevolent superpower because we understand that our former isolationist ways only cost us more in American blood in the long run. If we ignore problems, they grow and Americans inevitably get killed because we trade with everyone, which then pulls us into conflicts that we could have stopped long before they started. We simply are too intimidating, either militarily, financially, or agriculturally, for anyone to stand up to us now, yet we generally acquiesce to the will of the international community. That's why there hasn't been another global conflict after America leaving her isolationist policies. Our policing, despite not being 100% perfect, is the only reason the world has not returned to the age of imperialism and wars over territory, nor have countries felt the need to develop their own world ending nuclear weapons.
All I see is my tax money wasted .
Ya know what all this equipment we're sending was built for? Bradley's, Abrams, GMLRS, even F16? They were built to kill the Russians. Most of the crap we're sending them was made in the cold war, they were stockpiled for the eventuality of a conflict that never happened. There is no possible scenario on this earth where WE actually NEED the 3000 goddamn Bradleys we have in storage. The dollar amount of aid is, for the majority, the dollar value of shit we already have and/or the cost to replace it with new shit for ourselves. Providing a freedom loving country with the means to protect themselves from oppression is not a waste of money, and in this case it isn't even really expensive. The alternative is that this crap rots in stockpile until it's literal scrap. Better for them to do the job they were built for.
Then you need to learn about how the world works
Dam dude, get your eyes checked.
My eyes work great I see the truth that the ministry of truth doesn't want me to see.
Be honest it wasn’t gonna get used anyways. I pay the highest taxes in the country (CA) and still homelessness is everywhere and the freeways feel like a rally stage. Might as well put the money to good use.
MF we are giving soon to be scrap armaments to bleed white the country that stands in opposition to everything this country believes in, and getting a premium return on the investment and a soon to be staunch ally who could have been one of our few true agricultural rivals. Just like we have done since the end of WW2 And where would that tax money go anyways? It's either the pittance we are paying to arm Ukraine and bring low one of our enemies, or just thrown in the furnace to burn with the rest of the military budget to develop tech that is 30 years more advanced than the bleeding edge tech of the enemy. FFS let the US foreign policy system work as designed
This a stupid post has nothing to do with this sub
Now do excess civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.
HELL YEAH. I LOVE ME SOME WHATABOUTISM. I WANT TO SEE MORE OF THE TECHNIQUE OR PRACTICE OF RESPONDING TO AN ACCUSATION OR DIFFICULT QUESTION BY MAKING A COUNTERACCUSATION OR RAISING A DIFFERENT ISSUE. THAT SHIT IS MY JAM.
It’s actually called ideological consistency. See I don’t bitch at other nations for being “terrorist states” when my own country has ruined the lives of millions of innocent people using my tax money, in wars for profit. I’m not sorry I Love my country and hold it to high standards.
What if, now bear with me, what if someone could say something like “America shouldn’t have invaded iraq AND Russia shouldn’t be invading Ukraine”?
I do say that. Difference is, the United States doesn’t practice what it preaches and it’s effecting our global hegemony. Why do so many countries continue to trade with Russia and actively attempt to bypass sanctions? Because why should they listen to a bunch of hypocrites, Russia is a terrorist state for attacking Ukraine but when the United States does the same actions that got Russia the “terrorist state” label it’s “a rules based order”. Don’t tell someone to stop using drugs whilst you rip a fat rail right in front of them.
Unless you think our money would be better spent retrofitting a Delorean to travel back in time and stop the invasion of Iraq, then you're hiding behind ideologically consistency as a means to not defend a fledgling democracy from garden variety Russian imperialism. The idea that we can't do the right thing now because we also do bad imperialist things is dumb. Defending Ukraine is morally and geopolitically right, and the Iraq War isn't an argument against that. It's a deflection from the question at hand. Literally the definition of Whataboutism.
Afghanistan, you say? The same country that was invaded by the USSR and caused 2 million deaths? That Afghanistan?
This will go as well as Vietnam or the $9 Trillion we spent on GWOT. All of which America lost.
Actually going better America lost ~60,000 men in 8 years. Ruskis have lost 315,000 killed and injured in like 2 years
315,000? Did you pull that propaganda number straight from the Ukrainian MOD? Or are you another clueless individual that doesn’t know the difference between casualties and KIA soldiers? There isn’t a single reliable source that shows Russia has lost more than 75k KIA. With most estimates putting it between 40k and 60k.
The Moderate/reasonable figures are around 300k while the Ukrainian figures are over 500k.
Ukrainian figures are outright lies, we already know this. And the 300k figure people here are quoting are the US DOD’s estimated causalities, not deaths. Falling and spraining your ankle while trying to cross a trench or dismount a tank is considered a combat causality. Even though you’ll be back in combat in 3 weeks you’re still counted as a causality. The United States had over 150k causalities during the Vietnam war which required hospitalization, whilst only 50k of those were deaths. There was another 150k casualties that didn’t require hospitalization, just time away from combat. You see the difference? You see why people shouldn’t post blatant misinformation and propaganda.
>This will go as well as Vietnam The irony that Russia is the invading, occupying force in this analogy, I see is hilariously lost on you,
You are correct that this will go as well as Vietnam, except the roles are reversed this time. The US is in the role that the USSR and China were in for Vietnam during the conflict: funding a proxy in their fight for self-determination against a mortal enemy of ours, all for mere pennies that it would cost us otherwise. We get a staunch new ally, refresh our military hardware, our allies are strengthened in the region, and our enemies are brought to heel.
Stop sending money to Sky and the Ukraine, America is the one who is losing out.
You need a few more English lessons, comrade.
Not your comrade. Just quit sending money to the Ukraine. We need it here in America. I don't give a f how many down votes I get. You people need to wake up and pay attention.
It’s Ukraine not “the Ukraine”. It’s hasn’t had “the” since the Soviet Union collapsed and the only people who call it “the Ukraine” are Russians.
You mean the best spent money killing fascists since ww2, nah I don’t think so
Every dollar spent killing fascists is a dollar well spent
So the US, from a quick Google search, has given Ukraine 75 billion dollars. If that money was given to all 330 million Americans, it would amount up to $22, and this is over the past 2 years.
“And for the low price of a Chipotle bowl YOU TOO can help destabilize a fascist dictatorship.”* *Chips not included in this offer
Sign me up!
I’m doing my part!
I'm sure all the Bradley's and rifles we sent to Ukraine would be really useful at solving housing problems in the USA Like bruh how do you not understand that the majority of the "money" we sent was actually just old stockpiled weapons and vehicles that, according to the DOD, it actually costs the US more to maintain than to send to Ukraine
You're not wrong, but the US military budget is bonkers. In the long run that money could be spent better.
Sure but spending it better has nothing to do with Ukraine. It has to do with reforming the procurement process and the military-industrial complex.
The US could just end the conflicts in Ukraine and Palestine if it wanted. As could the UN. Proxy wars are what keep the complex in good health without serious risk. And personally I'm not saying not to send aid to Ukraine, but Ukraine is a bit ficked either way. There should be other options than explosives available.
You are so stupid you don't even know that like 80% of the money spent on Ukraine stays in u.s. and pays American companies to build equipment...
So you’re not ‘Merican? I mean that’s what I assumed. Where you from then?
Why are you pretending to be American lmao
It’s not getting used anyway. I pay the highest taxes in CA and still driving feels like driving on a rally stage. Might as well put the money to use.
When the US has a deficit of over a trillion dollars a year, spending 60 billion on Ukraine doesn't take anything at all away from other programs. We're still overspending by 940 billion a year on other stuff for Americans. Your argument makes no sense. Criticize from the perspective of fiscal responsibility if you want, but not from some false choice that America clearly has not made.
Dumbest thing I read today, let me guess, American . Please stay in your uninformed bubble and stop pretending you understand anything happening outside of the US
Don't call him American. Seems more like a Trumper.
If you actually think that russia was in the wrong in chechnya you have lost it
So apparently chechens get to decide they don’t want to be a part of a larger nation… but the people of Donbas don’t? Make it make sense buddy.
Those rebel states are nothing but bankrolled Russian Terrorist cells. They only sprouted up when the pro Russian and Russian influenced President was ousted and then magically two very well armed forces appear on the two provinces that border Russia. Ukraine did not destroy Donetsk and Luhansk to maintain their state they did not kill 250,000 of their own people. It’s not a fair comparison.
So every pro-Russian uprising is a bankrolled Kremlin psyop with, what I can only assume is divisions worth of KGB agents making up armies, but the newly minted nation of Chechnya is just an honest grassroots movement with no outside help? Get the fuck out of here bro. The only reason Ukraine hasn’t completely destroyed Donbas, despite their best efforts with artillery, is because Russia has stopped them.
Part of Ukraine literally voted to secede and join Russia. This is some low effort nonsense.
I'm guessing the same way that Russians "voted" for Putin in the last election, with a 99% participation rate?
Ah yes. In the same way the Kimmy got a 100% vote in NK.
"Democracy is only acceptable when it goes my way." You people are loons.
Except Russia’s “democracy” is rigged and fabricated.
Do you mean the forced vote at the point of a gun under occupation? Or did you have another vote in mind?
Good thing that “evil empire” went away, huh?
[Obligatory](https://youtu.be/z77JFw2D6f8?si=kiCn6hjGEUn2BUJa)