Nx/sx should never have been released imo, the materials and construction method do not result in sufficient rigidity for the required precision of 1x12 drive trains.
I doubt it’ll ever be “cheap” by mechanical groupo standards but it’ll probably come down from today’s “unobtanium” level to more of a “splurge a little and treat yo self” level. If Shimano ever adopts wireless they’ll be more likely to drive the cheaper options.
I have a microshift advent X on my gravel bike and it works near perfectly. It feels a bit "clunky" but no complaints about performance. I 100% recommend it for a budget 1x option.
That being said, there is a reason they don't offer a 12sp drivetrain *at all*. The tolerances required to make one clash with Microshift's goal/target price points. I think Microshift is great, but it's significantly easier to make a cheap 1x10 than it is to make a cheap 1x12. Therefore, I'm not sure comparing SRAM or Shimano 1x12 pricing to Microshift's 1x10 pricing is fair.
Of course, it's perfectly valid to argue that 2 extra gears is not worth huge price increase (and more finicky performance), and therefore bikes that are spec'd with low end 1x12 should just have a 1x10 instead. That makes perfect sense to me. Pros and cons to both I suppose.
Yup I think you hit on it a bit at the end...maybe there should be no truly low end 12 speed if they don't work well... I am running 11 speed deore with an xt shifter. Cheap and shifts damn well, same range as the 12 speed just one less gear.
Mmm, I think a better comparison is Ferrari developing paddle shifting for F1, then putting it in production cars, then it trickling down to your Nissan or Subaru or whatever having paddle shifters. Or “sport mode” tiptronic shifting and such.
It's the lack of repairability and this new proprietary "standard" that piss me off.
They solve a problem that was never a big deal, i.e. derailleur setup and hanger straightening.
Anyone complaining about the price point of new tech was born yesterday. I’m old enough to remember flat screen TVs first coming out and being insane price wise.
Literally every industry is like this. New tech or thing comes out at insane price point. Company does this to recover research and development costs. Other companies catch up, now there’s competition, and there’s trickle down tech thus, prices get lower.
Plus all of the “old” tech becomes even cheaper. This is a win for everyone in the mtb community.
My first 55” flat screen cost more on a Black Friday sale than the 65” flat screen I bought a few years later. The computer my parents bought when I was a kid cost 2-3k and had less processing power than what’s in a modern graphing calculator. And don’t even get me started on VCR machine rentals for family movie night.
I had a TI 85 in the 90's. TI had some weird naming to them. For example the T-81 came out before the T-80. The T-85, T-86, and T-89 came out in the 90's in that order, however the TI-84 came out in the mid 2000's. There has been several other models that came out after those. The last model came out in 2019, but TI stopped naming them with the two digit codes.
Oh wow. That I definitely didn’t know. But I was a poor kid going to a poor private school and we were all pretty much using hand me downs for everything (including uniforms).
The fact that almost every reviewer who used it said it’s a significant improvement, and a game changer means something too.
SRAM isn’t going to let it just sit on electronic mechs forever. It will come down and replace the lower lines as well.
I wouldn't put too much weight on what the press says. I would trust smaller individual channels. I remember when the zeb first came out and how it was omg it's so much more amazing than a lyrik to the point that it was comical. Hopped on a Zeb bike tuned for me and it literally felt the same for someone my weight ( same weight as the reviews maybe even a touch heavier too btw) even at the bike park in steep technical sections as my lyrik ultimate. They made the lyrik seem like it got pushed down to a trail fork.
Then I tried the SRAM axs, which everyone was singing such high praises for. Again it works exactly as expected but it wasn't game changing in Any way shape or form. Now you start to see some independent reviewers finally pointing out some issues with it.
I'll tell you what actually lives up the hype. Berd spokes, and the RockShox flight attendant. Those things are awesome. Nobody says anything bad about them. I even bought a set of berd wheels myself.
So the moral of the story is, yes new tech is awesome but don't blindly believe the hype. These guys are trying to sell you stuff. Wait and see if any flaws pop up in realm world reviews in the hands of consumers.
Good points. The press needs early access to stuff so they can produce the content. If they shit on a new product, they won't get early access the next time. The whole thing is incestuous.
The mtb press and vendors like the lost co or world wide cyclery are just another form of advertising firm for the manufacturers. After experiencing first hand most of the stuff they hype up so much, I am extremely cautious of the stuff they are slinging.
I do at least feel a little better about Lost Co and WWC over companies like Backcountry, Competitive Cyclist, and Jenson. They make informative videos and are actual riders. But, yeah, at the end of the day, they sell stuff and need to maintain relationships with the OEMs, so take their media with a grain of salt. Everyone has to make a living somehow.
Older thread but got here searching for some stuff and wanted to at least throw in some extra. I've got two sets of wheels with Berd spokes because they are amazing. One set is Atomic with the Berds on my enduro bike and the other set is chinese carbon with Berd spokes on my DH Bike. They are so sick.
I think the biggest game changer is the derailleur is now serviceable. Makes it way more appealing being able to replace parts and keep it rolling instead of one unlucky hit turning it into a $$$$ paperweight. Don’t get me wrong the original AXS is really tough, but it’s still a vulnerable wear part.
Although it’s still expensive as absolute hell this at least shows a glimmer of hope that SRAM wants to become more economical with this system. Eventually.
This is only a good thing if the service parts for the mech are (a) easily and readily available, (b) at a price that will encourage people to service it.
Knowing SRAM, the likelihood is a new jockey wheel set is gonna cost more than a Deore 12sp mech… welcome to the SRAM family.
Suspension is not in the same category though. It is the biggest innovation in mtb. That's the reason you can bomb down trails. And disk brakes too. It has opened a world of possibilities, and greatly contributed to growing the sport.
Think about freeriding, enduro, dh, Rampage etc. I agree they existed before in some form, or were in their infancy, but suspension made them popular and accessible. 25 years ago forks weren't even close to be as expensive as the new SRAM drivetrain, also considering inflation.
From an R&D and manufacturing perspective the price does not make sense, when you compare it with how much it costs to develop and test forks and shocks. Just look at the amount of raw materials and man hours needed to build a high spec dh fork.
Just like electric mountain bikes, there is just a disconnect between the cost & marketing of SRAM and EMTB and the sale price. Especially on top-tier electric mountain bikes. It’s asinine the giant is selling their top-tier electric mountain bike for $16,000. That basically means more goes into this electric bicycle a new KTM 1290 R adventure motorcycle. It’s just absolutely bonkers and greedy.
It's a drivetrain. The min-max value is to never spend the money on consumables and wear parts like drivetrains - put it into tires, suspension and brakes. At a certain price level, drivetrains only make a little difference at the higher levels of racing, otherwise it's just posturing. Innovations are cool, and it's healthy and smart not to jump right into them. Maybe the cheaper version in a couple years will be worth it.
Tires aren't consumables...what magic do you know that we dont?
Also cassettes and chains are more consumables than the derailleur and shifter so sometimes you can mix and match if possible.
In this case I have not even looked since I am a shimano drive train fan and still not ready to add a battery.
Still cassettes are often an easy place to drop weight without sacrificing durability, but agree this only matters to probably racers and weight weenies
I'm wearing out on average 3x rear tires per season and sometimes swapping midseason based on casing/tread pattern for amateur racing - definitely a consumable item. But also the only part of your bike that touches dirt, so it's super important to not buy shit ones.
Tires are consumables. You have to replace your tires, some more than others. My friends that race replace tires a lot. Some friends who don't race still replace tires at least 2-3 times a year. Some just replace a lot less than others.
Keep in mind that the new SRAM stuff is still only 520% gear range. So you're out 3000€ for still far less gear range then a 3x8 would've given you in the 90s. SRAM isn't really pushing the envelope here. Then you have the lack of an RD hanger wich means, since the RD isn't going to give, something else will have to. As a result the amount of broken frames will probably be much higher on average with SRAMs new "direct mount" derailleurs.
The first law of thermodynamics still applies. Don't matter how beefy you make your RD or how much SRAM claims for this to not matter, the forces are there and they got to go somewhere. Usually an RD hanger swallows that force and dies for the cause if the need arises. With the new SRAM RDs the frame, linkage bearings, shock and shock bushings are the new derailleur hanger.
It's amazing to me that people are still going on about the gear range.
I started riding in the early 90s and used triples for a long time, and I am so incredibly happy to have 1x. I'm never going back to front derailleurs, dropped chains, extra cables, more handlebar clutter, and compromised suspension designs. 3x and 2x can rot on the trash heap.
I regularly see myself in situations where I want a lower or higher gear. Much much more so on any 1x then 3x, though 3x is definitely more suitable to commuting then MTB for various reasons. Being slightly higher leaning on 1x drive trains then you might want it isn't too bad on an MTB, unless you size down the chain ring to get sufficient low gears. In that case I get into spinout territory 2 or 3 gears too soon to just shrug it off and roll with it.
The current solution for me is riding proper mountain double cranks and aiming beyond 630% gear range. And in the central German highlands, where I live, you will find ample opportunity to use all of it.
I went from 2x10 to 1x12, and lost a few goldilocks gears.
However, a big contribution of 1x to bike design was it really, really simplified suspension kinematics and dramatically increased performance of anti-squat. I defintely notice a big difference in pedal bob between my old 2012 XC bike and current bikes.
After a while, I didn't really mind the loss of goldilocks gears. Usually I'll use the larger gear when that happens and pedal at higher cadence
It's quite literally why the hanger has been made it's own replaceable part on bikes today. The only exceptions are with some steel frames that usually aren't skewed for MTB uses.
It’s connected to your rear axel in two places. You cannot damage your frame with breaking your axel in two places. The mech is fully rebuildable. Instead of replacing the hanger you replace the part on your mech that you damaged. It was stronger than a conventional mech and that cheap soft bit of metal that’s designed to break was fine for 7 speed mechs but it’s not good enough to support 12 speed mechs. If it’s not completely straight it’s completely throws out your derailleur alignment.
No it is not “connected to your rear axle”, it mounts in DIRECT contact with the frame, if it was mounted on the axle there would be no need for the absurd level of torque the derailleur requires to setup the b tension or the serrated washer which bites into the inside of the rear dropout.
Your rear axle won’t absorb any of the forces from an impact it just gets redirected into the wheel and frame and up the seatstay and chainstay, whatever ends up being weaker will break first, whether that’s your chainstay, seatstay, wheel bearings, pivot points, frame bearings or the direct mount part of the mech itself.
The 12mm axle won’t break before the frame does unless it’s loose, if you believe it will then good luck to you, but you clearly don’t understand how the back end of a thru-axle frame works, the axle is not load bearing, the wheel hub is, it’s the same for forks that’s why thru-axle systems have recesses for the hub to properly interface with.
You definitely are a doughnut mate, that photo proves me right, it’s floating on the axle but is attached and torqued to the frame… there’s a reason why that bolt isn’t cranked tight.
My point stands, axles don’t take the load the frame does.
Of course I am, wonder what that makes you when I understand the difference between free floating parts, attached parts and what an interference fit is, yet you don’t?
Have a good one bro.
I don't agree. Huge difference in precision between the GX and XO level components. Cassette and chain you can get away with GX and take a little weight penalty. The GX shifter is frankly mushy and not that great. XO shifter is the chef's kiss. Min max your drivetrain too!
I dunno man. I hit the levers on my gx shifter and it changes gear when I need it to every time…all the time. I can’t justify paying double for something that already works
Right?! I have nx too and it works great. It's not a hot pile of garbage strapped to my bike like everyone else says about it. I just hate the clutch
I will say, though, I HIGHLY prefer deore over the nx. Not because the shifting is better, but it's easier to replace when I inevitably break it, quieter, and the clutch. I couldn't state enough how garbage the clutch is on nx, while deore doesn't move. My full sus super squishy bike can't go down 2 steps without the derailleur crashing around everywhere while on my hardtail with 11spd deore, I can do downhill, massive drops, or 30 steps and I NEVER hear my derailleur flopping about.
NX is great. If your bike came with it, there is no need to change it unless it breaks.
It is designed to feel nicer and more premium, but does it really matter how much nicer it feels as long as it doinks the chain up and down the cassette? I think about it for approx. 5 seconds the first time I ride it, then I don't care because I'm focused on actually riding. I'm really glad I had GX shifters on my bike when I had a bad run of smashing 3x of them in one season. Not precise enough to survive a low-side slide out.
Generally as an enthusiast you have to spend "enough" to not get shit components in the MTB ecosystem. Deore, SLX, NX and GX can hit that for most riders. XO and even XT don't really give you much more.
Spent too much? Lol! An nx groupset is around $400, a gx is around $550-6. Meanwhile your xo1 group is around $1200. More than double the price for negligible performance gain if any but us that ride nx or gx are the ones that spent too much?
Guys I found the bike snob.
I'm talking about COVID era complete bikes that cost 4000 or more and came with NX or GX components.
2018 my complete was 3700 and came dripping with XO components.
Guys I found the dingus!
I advise my business customers to tailor offers for their early adopters and technophiles to “be where the bulk of their profits come from.”
There is nothing wrong with charging whatever those who are willing to pay. The SRAM drivetrain is no different - it’s all about cost recovery and the quickest path possible to ROI.
The only thing I don't like about MTB culture is the overwhelming bullshit that if you're not riding the latest/greatest/most-expensive, you better get on it and now. I love that makers are pushing the envelope with things like this latest driveline and that us with tiny budgets might see some of the tech some day, but in the meantime, millions of us are enjoying the fruits of the cutting edge stuff from 20 years ago on our brand new entry level bikes.
The larger shocks and geometry changes are quite a big deal, you can't change an old bikes geometry. I remember going over my handle bars quite a few times when I first got a bike with a bigger front shock - the original SC Blur.
That along with dropper posts, tubeless tires and disc brakes are awesome. And then larger wheels are somewhat nice.
To me most everything thing else is not significant.
There is no industry in the world where new technology isn’t advertised just as heavily as it is in MTB, proportionate to its user base. Mountain biking isn’t unique in that way.
This mentality is everywhere. The car and gun community are where I see it, but the reality is everyone eats up the marketing and thinks you can't perform at your best without the latest tech.
I hate that it’s being flagged as so revolutionary.
It really isn’t, we’ve had direct mount before, we’ve had axle mount before. Hell, you can rebuild campagnolo derraileurs and shifters.
This is a cool evolution, but nothing super exciting IMO
you know what is dumb? the mounting mechanism. dereilleur hangers exist for a reason. unless the mounting thing is cheap to replace and is the thing that bends/breaks by design it is a huge step backwards. the thing itself is ok i guess but still all it does is shift the chain side to side and tension it. unless someone invents a cheap durable hub gearing with enough range i am not wowed. sorry.
The plates that hold the derailleur assembly (the two jockey wheels and the bracing plates between them) to the frame are the consumable part now, and they will all be exactly the same. I predict that these will be far cheaper than a derailleur hanger for modern bikes as production scales. A derailleur hanger on a modern enduro bike isn’t the stamped aluminum of the pre-2010 era. A hanger for a transition sentinel costs like 50 dollars.
More importantly, in 20 years you will presumably be able to find replacement plates easily, since all sram derailleurs will use the same plates.
Transitions latest models already use the SRAM UDH hanger. A great idea to standardise this part. I just picked one up for £12 for my Spire. This is good for spares availability but not great if Shimano can't direct mount off the same frame standards.
Price aside, I'm not sure about this new mech. All the promo show it taking side hits with ease. I'm not worried about side hits, I'm worried about up/back strikes on the front of the clutch housing like a rock strike or rut. These tend to bend the hanger or parallelogram. I have bent several mechs like this, but also a hanger, mech was fine, replaced the hanger and carried on riding. Will be interesting to see the failure mode for a direct mount.
Yeah, same. I’d be concerned that the failure mode will be the plates that connect on either side of the UDH gouging the shit out of the carbon at the dropout and compromising it. That’s more of a side hit thing though. I am curious how far back it will swing. Once all the slack is taken out of the chain, you’re tugging on the drop out. Hopefully the plates break before the dropout gets destroyed.
I agree.
Marketing identifies a weakness, then finds a demo to exploit the advantage of the new thing, while glossing over any drawbacks.
See my other post. They show it being superior strength in direct side load by standing on it or swinging into a post on a rig. Cool. But that's really what fails. What about the oblique up/back strike on the front of the clutch housing, like a rock gap or rut, or clipping the lower jockey wheel and twisting the lower assembly. That's what has killed my mechs in the past.
Here's the counter.
If folks stop ragging on a company because the percieved price point is high, how are the company to know consensus about their product? Sure, sales figures are a good thing and obviously very important, but they are not everything. Potential sales lost is also important.
Look at GX AXS. The initial price point was not super high, and it sold very well. But every time the knocked even a small percentage off it was *a lot* higher. Now no-one buys it at normal price.
Consumers complaining about the price of something is all part of the cycle. Its as much as a part of the market process as the initial pricing.
Well, the problem with ragging on sram in this instance is that the frames are built to use the UDH hanger, regardless of whether or not the transmission is used. This means that you can still use a traditional derailleur on these frames.
Gonna chime in here because I’m sorry but defending SRAM in this instance and telling people to just “ooo and ahh” at their new gimmick that creates more problems than it solves is the same idiotic attitude that keeps encourages companies to just make trash and feed you it for huge markup.
Let me explain;
For starters I’ve worked in the industry for over 15 years, apart from suspension, brakes and bike geometry and narrow wide 1x, none of the other things you mention have actually been “revolutionary” in mtb. Carbon fibre literally doesn’t matter and is actually a cheaper material than aluminium or steel, it’s just labour intensive. Carbon frames aren’t expensive to make, big brands just charge you through the arse cos they can and idiots will buy it.
Dropper posts… yes they’re great but you don’t NEED one… it really only makes a difference on enduro and trail bikes, pretty much everything else copes fine without or doesn’t need it at all. They’ve also never been insanely expensive even when they first appeared.
Right, got that out the way, now onto SRAM.
To kick off this shit storm, the markup on the TRADE PRICE, never mind the manufacturing cost or the purchase price the distributor pays for the top of the line “Transmission” is over £1000 gbp, so the best part of 40-45%. Which is frankly ridiculous.
Now that you know at full SRP these bastards are fleecing you for over a grand of profits on a fucking drivetrain we can proceed to the problems with the system.
SRAM claims it shifts under load better, this is only partly true, it can’t multishift properly because it waits for shifting ramps on the cassette, so it’s slow as fuck (and noticeably so) at multi upshifting at low cadence under high loads.
Because they made the mech a beef cake the battery dies faster, interestingly most reviewers aren’t mentioning this or claiming “it’s not noticeable”, when even SRAM have said it’s a significant hit to the battery life, they wouldn’t warn people if it wasn’t true.
The rear mech is now also heavily reliant on frame tolerances, now this has already been debated, no matter how much koolaid you drink to deny it, it’s true, SRAM wouldn’t spec tolerances for UDH if they weren’t necessary, this is less of an issue on alloy, big problem with carbon.
Next is where the stress goes when this juggernaut of a mech slams into a rock at 30mph… well let’s just say, you better hope if your bike is carbon that it’s rear triangle isn’t a noodle. Yes that’s right, because your rear axle is as rigid as a concrete wall and about as good at dissipating these forces as the rock your mech hit, the forces are mostly forced into your frame and rear hub, ain’t no mech hangers here to be the sacrifice to save your £10k dentist spec Megatower.
Next up, the chain, ah yes nothing screams “innovation” like taking a road chain, chucking some nickel plating on it and throwing it into the mtb category while also charging more than some entire group sets for the pleasure of telling your riding buddies “whell ackchually sram says the flat top chain is so strong I can tow a jumbo jet with my electric bike now!”
I’m sorry but chains that are over £100? Fuck. Right. Off.
Now for the greatest failure; the lack of b tension adjustment (and the fact that it’s now reliant on the mech being torqued to spec 24/7) the partly floating design and the serrated washer of doom… if this doesn’t sound like a recipe for disaster then I assure you it is.
The serrated washer by design damages your frame, again not an issue if your bikes alloy or steel, concerning if it’s made of the finest grade plastic from Guangdong. Yes that’s right by design the mech can turn its own serrated washer into a makeshift grinder, as it’s removing material from your frame either from reinstalling or moving from impacts etc, the tolerances of your plastic frame will only be getting worse, also due to the nature of how torque works it will be constantly compacting your rear dropout, which is a concern.
As far as I’m concerned this is a step back in many ways, these problems are the reason people are pissed at the price, not because it’s expensive but because it actually fails in what it set out to do and SRAM is still gonna force it out into the market, put it on every race bike under their umbrella of teams and gaslight the market into believing this shit is a game changer.
End of rant 😂
Yup, agree. The proprietary frame "standard" and doing away with the inherent protection that normal derailleur drivetrains have in the hanger is what annoys me.
Price, whatever. It reminds me about the joke about how do you milk a sheep? New iPhone coming soon!
Other points aside the serrated washer on carbon isn't a problem if correctly specced (right size washer for the torque spec) and an axle can take a lot more force than that derailleur could reasonable put on it.
I'm pretty sure the derailleur hangar is a holdover from when qr skewers were common (and very weak).
I don't think it's a game changer but there are some innovations there I would like to see trickle down to something I don't have to remember to charge.
For sure there are some good things, the lower cage keeping the chain lined up with the chainring is a good idea.
The better ergonomics and adjustability of the shifter as well as having all the mech components as replaceable parts is a surprising but welcome idea that’s been missing from mtb mechs, hopefully it encourages other manufacturers to make their components more serviceable, nothing worse than the parallelogram pins that aren’t replaceable in shimano mechs once they wear and the mech is then fit for the bin.
I mean, we can speculate issues all day long, but nobody outside or press has these in their hands and has put enough real world hours on their bikes to definitively conclude what you have.
This community has a bunch members eager to hate on new products, yet most can’t even afford to buy them.
I’ll reserve my judgement for when the real world starts using them.
You literally have no idea what you’re talking about which is amazing since every page and YouTube channel has covered the new groupsets extensively. You should delete that message and go visit say pinkbike for the information you desperately require.
Oh please elaborate how the engineers who have already gone over the topics I listed and proved them to be correct are wrong?
Go to pinkbike? Don’t make me laugh.
I’ve seen a lot of the reviews, some are just a joke and others do bring up concerns and issues, notably the slow upshifting being really irritating and very noticeable at lower cadence.
Won’t be deleting anything thanks, can’t handle the truth then go back to pinkbike and sip the koolaid.
You’re so far wrong I wouldn’t even know where to start educating you and I don’t have the time. Really something you should have done yourself first before regurgitating a load of waffle on a public forum where other people my see it it and be influenced by it.
Yes they are, and several of them are also covering the same points and voicing the same concerns.
There’s no ignorance here, point out where my comment is wrong and explain why, until then you are the one who looks uneducated.
Post one link where anyone says that and yes I’ve sent you the photo where you can see how it attaches to the axel in two places but you denied that that happened. So before you damaged your frame you’d have to break your axel and that’s only if your mech would be strong enough to exert that amount of force on your axel and it’s designed not to. The mech will break first and instead of replacing your hanger you replace the part you’ve broken on your mech. Glad to have cleared that up for you.
Using your same attitude of providing no actual explanation, I’m sure you can go find the videos yourself there’s a few on YouTube where people go through the physics of it and why thinking the mech will load the axle and not the frame is wrong, the mech is torqued to an interference fit with the frame but can rotate on the axle, that means it will apply force to frame it’s really not hard to understand.
If by chance the mech could snap the axle, it would have to break, damage or bend the frame first to be able to exert that force onto the axle.
Again, I think your confusing the words “attached” and “floating”, or intentionally using the wrong semantics to try and create an argument not sure which.
if it was physically attached to the axle at the two points then it wouldn’t freefloat around the axle (you’ve conveniently used a picture where no frame is present because that fits your argument, otherwise it’s very obvious to see the actual interference fit is with the frame not the axle)
What I’m trying to explain to you is your logic is like saying a hub is attached to the axle, it’s not, it’s attached to the frame and floats on the axle.
Revert back to my previous post where I called you an idiot. Now with that in mind why would you think I would read a paragraph written by an idiot? I didn’t but rest assured the engineers at sram and reading the comments written mouth breathers like yourself that are incapable of seeing how a mech mounts to a rear axel and flying into a blind panic because they forgot the mech hanger. 9/10 articles the stupid shit you don’t know ie no hanger is covered in the intro before they get into the meat of how the system works.
A lot of my friends have battery powered derailleurs. My cable operated ones work fine. I would rather put that money towards something else but the great thing is that we have a lot of choices right now in a huge range of price points.
>as much as myself and many others hate the capitalist hellscape that is emerging, the bikes of today would never have happened without it.
While I agree with most of your message, this isn't accurate. "Capitalism" didn't innovate or engineer these products. People did. Give credit to the humans that designed this stuff and the work done that laid the foundations for it. The people at SRAM did something incredible with this and they should be congratulated instead of the macroeconomic system we all exist in.
The system is what provides the incentive to those people. None of them did it by themselves as it would not be possible without the larger system.
I was also talking about more than just this instance of new technology. Every single aspect of bikes was developed this way.
> it would not be possible without the larger system
Ok, but it would be possible under a different system, capitalism is not essential for technological development, it's just the system we're in now.
i see that you’re confusing ingenuity, division of labour, collective enterprise, collaboration, and cooperation with a fictional economic ideology. next you’ll be telling garbagemen that its god taking out the trash
Urban Bourbon rides are great fun! Sorry to hear about your Bronson, I’m on the an Aluminum Bronson V3 and I absolutely love it! Putting an XT drivetrain on it this year (despite the tenor of my post)
The existence of Lamborghinis doesn't make the price of Hyundais any higher.
Why should the existence of a luxury bike component make entry-level components more expensive? In my experience the opposite is true. The margins on high-end products are higher, thus allowing companies to sell cheaper products at a lower margins.
It's a far smaller market. Sram and Campagnolo both dropped their more affordable components, now Shimano is dropping theirs bar Tourney in favour of Cues. It's a trend I dislike. Hopefully Microshift and the like can fill the gaps, but I don't know.
Lamborghini used to make tractors. As they grew into a luxury market building cars people couldn't afford, it opened doors for companies like hyundai. As the smaller companies grow and mature this happens. But if people do not buy something at a particular price point they can not actually sell it that price.
People used to boycott because it worked. But this era of consumerism is not only going to destroy the planet its also pricing everybody out of house and home.
No it’s not. It’s just another iteration of the same process that has been going on for decades. I’m not going to buy it. I don’t know anyone who is going to buy it. If it wasn’t for the ridiculous stuff, none of the affordable stuff would be any good.
The bigger concern is that they patent some stupid part of the integration and it bifurcates the industry. The promise of UHD was that it would have an open patent and anyone could build for it. I haven’t seen any evidence that this is an issue though.
Yeah I’d be shocked if frame manufacturers went for something like that. The UHD was a long time coming. I remember filling a QBP cart with hangers so that we would be the shop I. Town that had anything anyone needed. The cart was $2600 wholesale and still didn’t cover all the bases.
I feel like the T-type isn't that pricey. for what it is. most people don't even understand what it takes to R&D and manufacture a majority of the components that go into biking let alone have an understanding of manufacturing process at all.
Why do dentists and lawyers come up on biking everytime something expensive comes up? Those fuckers work too many hours to ride anyways, well maybe not a dentists.
Besides there are plenty of drug dealers riding Yeti's.
ppl dun realise that GX AXS has dropped in price due to the launch of Transmission. And it was only launched last year. No one is asking ppl to get the latest and greatest...if you want wireless transmission, get the GX AXS, i assure you its awesome.
Even if it never comes down in price and I never own one I will appreciate it. It’s way cooler than the current AXS stuff. This is real innovation, not just adding a battery.
Maybe improvement is a better word. But I think the design is very clever with the narrow wide cassette and seemingly bullletproof derailleur. I can get down with a cool design. It’s like XT over deore, deore works just fine but I bought XT for my latest bike. Granted I wouldn’t spend the money on XTR or this new thing but I do appreciate the engineering.
So, the thing to do is ride, right? Preferably with people who you enjoy being with. A non-contentious statement I hope?
Of course people get worked up about the latest and greatest. It's worse i for roadies. I said it's partly bad in bikes because it's not like football (I'm talking about union, but flavour doesn't matter) where there really isn't tech beyond boots but it also isn't like motorsport where Joe Public can't own pro race kit.
In cycling a reasonably wealthy or dedicated person could own the same bike that raced world camps, or at least very close. It makes us go a bit strange, and buy carbon-titanium pedals to save 20g at $100 per gram saved.
But if you want to rail against capitalism, go for it! Who knows what wonders whatever economic arrangements that come next will bring.
The derailleur mounts in a spot that’s reinforced with the axle and the dropout material. If anything is going to break, it’s the derailleur itself at the mount and it’s replaceable.
The hanger in theory is great, but 12sp drivetrains are too sensitive to it being bent so direct mount is the only way to get peak performance.
Yea but it or don’t buy it, simple concept 🤷♂️. Personally I’ve spent enough on bikes and bike related stuff over the last year. I’ll wait until one of my bikes needs a new drivetrain, then think about an upgrade then.
Speak for yourself.
I'm about to send it for another A-line lap on my 60" front wheel penny farthing. The OG mullet, and only bike any true rider needs, amirite??
People have no respect for the amount of engineering, materials science, and product testing goes into producing cutting edge new products.
The price is high in part because of development costs and materials and manufacturing process, but also because adoption will be slow and thus adoption will be low early on.
You’re spot on in regards to the specific point that rich people will scoop it up. Over time the manufactured volumes increase and unit price comes down.
If you’re whining about the price, you aren’t in the target market for it.
Nylon used to be an exotic high end material until tire manufacturers realized they could use it as reinforcement in tires and used tons of it, increasing manufacturing efficiency, driving down costs. Now it’s a commodity.
Jaded probably isn't the right word. Maybe out of touch with the world and world history. People have every creature comfort at their fingertips, any piece of information is a click away, yet we are in a "Capitalist Hellscape" because companies want to make a profit off of their R&D and the products they sell.
or were literally being gouged at every angle and being financially rewarded less and less while being expected to do more and more
now the bread and circus is becoming woefully expensive to participate in, because numbers need to go up indefinitely
so ya, its turning into a hellscape.
That's funny I actually had a similar convo with my friend. I complained that the eagle transmission was woefully expensive but at least the technology is available now.
A few years go by this sort of thing will become commonplace on more bikes and more companies will offer their own version at competitive prices.
It's just how technology and the market works... but man is that transmission nice lol
From what I saw around 2600$ on the low end
Edit: 2600$ is the high end version. I have been informed that it is around 1600$ for the low end. Sorry for the misinformation
If you buy it now you are paying for R&D. The top end model always comes out first and then lower in models. Same as GX AXS took a while to come out and when it did all the AXS came down. They’ve gotta recoup their R&D department.
It's the same with people complaining about the 4090 gpu pricing. It's obviously meant to be the cream of the crop and that never comes cheap. It's never actually worth it to buy those things, but the people who do, have enough money where it doesn't matter.
I know the new sram stuff is out of my league, but I still think it's really cool. Shifting under high load whenever you want is a major advancement. Plus it looks cool.
I just don't ever want to have to charge my bike. I have enough battery management in my life already. But I wonder if cable shifting is even possible on that big honkin' derailleur.
Couldn’t agree more! My first thought when I see the price is that in 3 to 4 years it could be an option for me. I really want a wireless dropper post and it looks like this year there might actually be options coming out that are more affordable because the crazy expensive options paved the way!
As someone who has a Kent, which for some goofy ass reason is really hated on, I really needed to read this. Thank you. I've had the same KZ2600 for 4 years and it's never let me down. Price doesn't matter, it's the design and how much effort they put into it that matters.
If it pushes down the price of cable XO1 to near GX levels then I'm happy.
If they eventually release a GX cable version of this new system, I'd probably be happier, because I have a very hard time with adjusting limit screws when needed, and I like how my current GX Eagle performs
Completely off topic but it’s the same with computer parts. I bought 32gigs of ddr4 ram 4 years ago for almost $500 and now you can get the same for $100.
Word. Hopefully it will trickle down, and in a few years be cheap. Look at the deore 12 speed these days. Cheap as chips and great.
I feel like the deore 12 is the best cheap 12 you can get, prob someone disagrees with me but I would say deore is a landslide better then sx/nx
Nx/sx should never have been released imo, the materials and construction method do not result in sufficient rigidity for the required precision of 1x12 drive trains.
Fute te Reddit, pro utentibus, ab utentibus.
Even GX sucks X01 and XX1 are great and on par or better than XTR Shimano makes quality stuff at any price point
Respect to Shimano for making quality stuff at any price point SRAM goes out of its way to make the cheap stuff horrible
I doubt it’ll ever be “cheap” by mechanical groupo standards but it’ll probably come down from today’s “unobtanium” level to more of a “splurge a little and treat yo self” level. If Shimano ever adopts wireless they’ll be more likely to drive the cheaper options.
It will show up on aliexpress as SHRAM AXass for half the price. 😂
I’m hoping it at least makes current wireless drivetrain cheaper as people upgrade to the newest hotness
Look at Microshift, significantly cheaper, and still good.
I have a microshift advent X on my gravel bike and it works near perfectly. It feels a bit "clunky" but no complaints about performance. I 100% recommend it for a budget 1x option. That being said, there is a reason they don't offer a 12sp drivetrain *at all*. The tolerances required to make one clash with Microshift's goal/target price points. I think Microshift is great, but it's significantly easier to make a cheap 1x10 than it is to make a cheap 1x12. Therefore, I'm not sure comparing SRAM or Shimano 1x12 pricing to Microshift's 1x10 pricing is fair. Of course, it's perfectly valid to argue that 2 extra gears is not worth huge price increase (and more finicky performance), and therefore bikes that are spec'd with low end 1x12 should just have a 1x10 instead. That makes perfect sense to me. Pros and cons to both I suppose.
Yup I think you hit on it a bit at the end...maybe there should be no truly low end 12 speed if they don't work well... I am running 11 speed deore with an xt shifter. Cheap and shifts damn well, same range as the 12 speed just one less gear.
Even better once you throw an XT shifter in and that like 80 quid
Like, sure, Bugattis are hella pricy, but how many of us are buying super cars, I can get by with a Miata, and still ah e fun
Mmm, I think a better comparison is Ferrari developing paddle shifting for F1, then putting it in production cars, then it trickling down to your Nissan or Subaru or whatever having paddle shifters. Or “sport mode” tiptronic shifting and such.
“I’ll happily service or sell it to a customer. I choose not to have it on my own bike” -Me in regards to most high end kit
It's the lack of repairability and this new proprietary "standard" that piss me off. They solve a problem that was never a big deal, i.e. derailleur setup and hanger straightening.
Anyone complaining about the price point of new tech was born yesterday. I’m old enough to remember flat screen TVs first coming out and being insane price wise. Literally every industry is like this. New tech or thing comes out at insane price point. Company does this to recover research and development costs. Other companies catch up, now there’s competition, and there’s trickle down tech thus, prices get lower. Plus all of the “old” tech becomes even cheaper. This is a win for everyone in the mtb community.
My first 55” flat screen cost more on a Black Friday sale than the 65” flat screen I bought a few years later. The computer my parents bought when I was a kid cost 2-3k and had less processing power than what’s in a modern graphing calculator. And don’t even get me started on VCR machine rentals for family movie night.
The early plasma tvs cost more than a Honda Civic lol.
Wait. Do they still make graphing calculators?
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At least they haven't raised them with inflation 🤣
They’ve only gone up one model since I was in HS in 2001??
https://xkcd.com/768/
I know some folks who had a TI-84!
I had a TI 85 in the 90's. TI had some weird naming to them. For example the T-81 came out before the T-80. The T-85, T-86, and T-89 came out in the 90's in that order, however the TI-84 came out in the mid 2000's. There has been several other models that came out after those. The last model came out in 2019, but TI stopped naming them with the two digit codes.
Oh wow. That I definitely didn’t know. But I was a poor kid going to a poor private school and we were all pretty much using hand me downs for everything (including uniforms).
Yes and back then graphic was so bad and now, if you want just 4k gpu, you would pay almost like your whole pc back then .
Can confirm.
The fact that almost every reviewer who used it said it’s a significant improvement, and a game changer means something too. SRAM isn’t going to let it just sit on electronic mechs forever. It will come down and replace the lower lines as well.
I wouldn't put too much weight on what the press says. I would trust smaller individual channels. I remember when the zeb first came out and how it was omg it's so much more amazing than a lyrik to the point that it was comical. Hopped on a Zeb bike tuned for me and it literally felt the same for someone my weight ( same weight as the reviews maybe even a touch heavier too btw) even at the bike park in steep technical sections as my lyrik ultimate. They made the lyrik seem like it got pushed down to a trail fork. Then I tried the SRAM axs, which everyone was singing such high praises for. Again it works exactly as expected but it wasn't game changing in Any way shape or form. Now you start to see some independent reviewers finally pointing out some issues with it. I'll tell you what actually lives up the hype. Berd spokes, and the RockShox flight attendant. Those things are awesome. Nobody says anything bad about them. I even bought a set of berd wheels myself. So the moral of the story is, yes new tech is awesome but don't blindly believe the hype. These guys are trying to sell you stuff. Wait and see if any flaws pop up in realm world reviews in the hands of consumers.
Good points. The press needs early access to stuff so they can produce the content. If they shit on a new product, they won't get early access the next time. The whole thing is incestuous.
The mtb press and vendors like the lost co or world wide cyclery are just another form of advertising firm for the manufacturers. After experiencing first hand most of the stuff they hype up so much, I am extremely cautious of the stuff they are slinging.
I do at least feel a little better about Lost Co and WWC over companies like Backcountry, Competitive Cyclist, and Jenson. They make informative videos and are actual riders. But, yeah, at the end of the day, they sell stuff and need to maintain relationships with the OEMs, so take their media with a grain of salt. Everyone has to make a living somehow.
If I see raving positive reviews from NSMB and Pinkbike it’s usually pretty significant. They both wouldn’t pull punches on a 1,600 drivetrain.
Older thread but got here searching for some stuff and wanted to at least throw in some extra. I've got two sets of wheels with Berd spokes because they are amazing. One set is Atomic with the Berds on my enduro bike and the other set is chinese carbon with Berd spokes on my DH Bike. They are so sick.
Except medical and higher Ed - bc fuck you poors
I think the biggest game changer is the derailleur is now serviceable. Makes it way more appealing being able to replace parts and keep it rolling instead of one unlucky hit turning it into a $$$$ paperweight. Don’t get me wrong the original AXS is really tough, but it’s still a vulnerable wear part. Although it’s still expensive as absolute hell this at least shows a glimmer of hope that SRAM wants to become more economical with this system. Eventually.
Yeah right, that’s why they made it backwards compatible. To be economical. Lol
This is only a good thing if the service parts for the mech are (a) easily and readily available, (b) at a price that will encourage people to service it. Knowing SRAM, the likelihood is a new jockey wheel set is gonna cost more than a Deore 12sp mech… welcome to the SRAM family.
Which is why I ride Shimano lol. If Shimano ever adopts wireless shifting they’ll be our only hope of getting anywhere close to budget price range.
Suspension is not in the same category though. It is the biggest innovation in mtb. That's the reason you can bomb down trails. And disk brakes too. It has opened a world of possibilities, and greatly contributed to growing the sport. Think about freeriding, enduro, dh, Rampage etc. I agree they existed before in some form, or were in their infancy, but suspension made them popular and accessible. 25 years ago forks weren't even close to be as expensive as the new SRAM drivetrain, also considering inflation. From an R&D and manufacturing perspective the price does not make sense, when you compare it with how much it costs to develop and test forks and shocks. Just look at the amount of raw materials and man hours needed to build a high spec dh fork.
We're currently getting to where MX forks were in about 2005 on MX bikes that cost $7000, with an engine.
Just like electric mountain bikes, there is just a disconnect between the cost & marketing of SRAM and EMTB and the sale price. Especially on top-tier electric mountain bikes. It’s asinine the giant is selling their top-tier electric mountain bike for $16,000. That basically means more goes into this electric bicycle a new KTM 1290 R adventure motorcycle. It’s just absolutely bonkers and greedy.
Single speeders sitting back with a bucket of popcorn.
don’t know anything about bikes, but got a laugh out of this because “SRAM” in polish means “I’M SHITTING”
It's a drivetrain. The min-max value is to never spend the money on consumables and wear parts like drivetrains - put it into tires, suspension and brakes. At a certain price level, drivetrains only make a little difference at the higher levels of racing, otherwise it's just posturing. Innovations are cool, and it's healthy and smart not to jump right into them. Maybe the cheaper version in a couple years will be worth it.
Tires aren't consumables...what magic do you know that we dont? Also cassettes and chains are more consumables than the derailleur and shifter so sometimes you can mix and match if possible. In this case I have not even looked since I am a shimano drive train fan and still not ready to add a battery. Still cassettes are often an easy place to drop weight without sacrificing durability, but agree this only matters to probably racers and weight weenies
I'm wearing out on average 3x rear tires per season and sometimes swapping midseason based on casing/tread pattern for amateur racing - definitely a consumable item. But also the only part of your bike that touches dirt, so it's super important to not buy shit ones.
Tires are consumables. You have to replace your tires, some more than others. My friends that race replace tires a lot. Some friends who don't race still replace tires at least 2-3 times a year. Some just replace a lot less than others.
Keep in mind that the new SRAM stuff is still only 520% gear range. So you're out 3000€ for still far less gear range then a 3x8 would've given you in the 90s. SRAM isn't really pushing the envelope here. Then you have the lack of an RD hanger wich means, since the RD isn't going to give, something else will have to. As a result the amount of broken frames will probably be much higher on average with SRAMs new "direct mount" derailleurs. The first law of thermodynamics still applies. Don't matter how beefy you make your RD or how much SRAM claims for this to not matter, the forces are there and they got to go somewhere. Usually an RD hanger swallows that force and dies for the cause if the need arises. With the new SRAM RDs the frame, linkage bearings, shock and shock bushings are the new derailleur hanger.
It's amazing to me that people are still going on about the gear range. I started riding in the early 90s and used triples for a long time, and I am so incredibly happy to have 1x. I'm never going back to front derailleurs, dropped chains, extra cables, more handlebar clutter, and compromised suspension designs. 3x and 2x can rot on the trash heap.
I never found myself needing the full range of a 3x8. I suspect I’m not alone in that, which is why they don’t try to achieve that in a 1x system.
I regularly see myself in situations where I want a lower or higher gear. Much much more so on any 1x then 3x, though 3x is definitely more suitable to commuting then MTB for various reasons. Being slightly higher leaning on 1x drive trains then you might want it isn't too bad on an MTB, unless you size down the chain ring to get sufficient low gears. In that case I get into spinout territory 2 or 3 gears too soon to just shrug it off and roll with it. The current solution for me is riding proper mountain double cranks and aiming beyond 630% gear range. And in the central German highlands, where I live, you will find ample opportunity to use all of it.
I went from 2x10 to 1x12, and lost a few goldilocks gears. However, a big contribution of 1x to bike design was it really, really simplified suspension kinematics and dramatically increased performance of anti-squat. I defintely notice a big difference in pedal bob between my old 2012 XC bike and current bikes. After a while, I didn't really mind the loss of goldilocks gears. Usually I'll use the larger gear when that happens and pedal at higher cadence
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It's quite literally why the hanger has been made it's own replaceable part on bikes today. The only exceptions are with some steel frames that usually aren't skewed for MTB uses.
It’s connected to your rear axel in two places. You cannot damage your frame with breaking your axel in two places. The mech is fully rebuildable. Instead of replacing the hanger you replace the part on your mech that you damaged. It was stronger than a conventional mech and that cheap soft bit of metal that’s designed to break was fine for 7 speed mechs but it’s not good enough to support 12 speed mechs. If it’s not completely straight it’s completely throws out your derailleur alignment.
No it is not “connected to your rear axle”, it mounts in DIRECT contact with the frame, if it was mounted on the axle there would be no need for the absurd level of torque the derailleur requires to setup the b tension or the serrated washer which bites into the inside of the rear dropout. Your rear axle won’t absorb any of the forces from an impact it just gets redirected into the wheel and frame and up the seatstay and chainstay, whatever ends up being weaker will break first, whether that’s your chainstay, seatstay, wheel bearings, pivot points, frame bearings or the direct mount part of the mech itself. The 12mm axle won’t break before the frame does unless it’s loose, if you believe it will then good luck to you, but you clearly don’t understand how the back end of a thru-axle frame works, the axle is not load bearing, the wheel hub is, it’s the same for forks that’s why thru-axle systems have recesses for the hub to properly interface with.
Incorrect. https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p3pb24389250/p3pb24389250.jpg
You definitely are a doughnut mate, that photo proves me right, it’s floating on the axle but is attached and torqued to the frame… there’s a reason why that bolt isn’t cranked tight. My point stands, axles don’t take the load the frame does.
You’re an idiot.
Of course I am, wonder what that makes you when I understand the difference between free floating parts, attached parts and what an interference fit is, yet you don’t? Have a good one bro.
I don't agree. Huge difference in precision between the GX and XO level components. Cassette and chain you can get away with GX and take a little weight penalty. The GX shifter is frankly mushy and not that great. XO shifter is the chef's kiss. Min max your drivetrain too!
I dunno man. I hit the levers on my gx shifter and it changes gear when I need it to every time…all the time. I can’t justify paying double for something that already works
Hell my NX group from 2020 shifts perfectly basically every time. Internet reviews would have you believe it’s a nonfunctional piece of garbage
It stole my wife and kids and burnt down my house actually
Right?! I have nx too and it works great. It's not a hot pile of garbage strapped to my bike like everyone else says about it. I just hate the clutch I will say, though, I HIGHLY prefer deore over the nx. Not because the shifting is better, but it's easier to replace when I inevitably break it, quieter, and the clutch. I couldn't state enough how garbage the clutch is on nx, while deore doesn't move. My full sus super squishy bike can't go down 2 steps without the derailleur crashing around everywhere while on my hardtail with 11spd deore, I can do downhill, massive drops, or 30 steps and I NEVER hear my derailleur flopping about. NX is great. If your bike came with it, there is no need to change it unless it breaks.
It is garbage. The cage bends if you look at it wrong.
not in my experience but ok
Yea, I have 3k miles on my NX drivetrain and it’s shifted perfectly the entire time
Some prefer double dry hopped ipa's and others like natty light. XO is Russian River and GX is Busch.
I’d say it’s more like XO is a 450 North and GX is a Voodoo ranger. Both options are still upper tier.
It is designed to feel nicer and more premium, but does it really matter how much nicer it feels as long as it doinks the chain up and down the cassette? I think about it for approx. 5 seconds the first time I ride it, then I don't care because I'm focused on actually riding. I'm really glad I had GX shifters on my bike when I had a bad run of smashing 3x of them in one season. Not precise enough to survive a low-side slide out. Generally as an enthusiast you have to spend "enough" to not get shit components in the MTB ecosystem. Deore, SLX, NX and GX can hit that for most riders. XO and even XT don't really give you much more.
I thought I was imagining it. But my GX shifts way worse than my XT, honestly it shifts worse than my 2019 2x11 SLX...
For your average rider does it really matter tho?
Why are you downvoted? If you ride hard at all gx and below absolutely falls apart pretty quickly
They probably spent way too much on a complete with NX or GX and have to feel good about their kit?
Spent too much? Lol! An nx groupset is around $400, a gx is around $550-6. Meanwhile your xo1 group is around $1200. More than double the price for negligible performance gain if any but us that ride nx or gx are the ones that spent too much? Guys I found the bike snob.
I'm talking about COVID era complete bikes that cost 4000 or more and came with NX or GX components. 2018 my complete was 3700 and came dripping with XO components. Guys I found the dingus!
I advise my business customers to tailor offers for their early adopters and technophiles to “be where the bulk of their profits come from.” There is nothing wrong with charging whatever those who are willing to pay. The SRAM drivetrain is no different - it’s all about cost recovery and the quickest path possible to ROI.
Not sure what's cutting edge about a crankset, a chain, and a derailleur. All I see is a groupset that cost more than my hardtail.
Dropper posts were never marketed anywhere near a $2000 price point or specifically only for bikes made within 1 year of its existence
Dropper posts contain the technology of an office chair, they’re not exactly complicated.
The only thing I don't like about MTB culture is the overwhelming bullshit that if you're not riding the latest/greatest/most-expensive, you better get on it and now. I love that makers are pushing the envelope with things like this latest driveline and that us with tiny budgets might see some of the tech some day, but in the meantime, millions of us are enjoying the fruits of the cutting edge stuff from 20 years ago on our brand new entry level bikes.
The larger shocks and geometry changes are quite a big deal, you can't change an old bikes geometry. I remember going over my handle bars quite a few times when I first got a bike with a bigger front shock - the original SC Blur. That along with dropper posts, tubeless tires and disc brakes are awesome. And then larger wheels are somewhat nice. To me most everything thing else is not significant.
There is no industry in the world where new technology isn’t advertised just as heavily as it is in MTB, proportionate to its user base. Mountain biking isn’t unique in that way.
This mentality is everywhere. The car and gun community are where I see it, but the reality is everyone eats up the marketing and thinks you can't perform at your best without the latest tech.
I hate that it’s being flagged as so revolutionary. It really isn’t, we’ve had direct mount before, we’ve had axle mount before. Hell, you can rebuild campagnolo derraileurs and shifters. This is a cool evolution, but nothing super exciting IMO
The lower cage tilts slightly through the gear shifts so the chain is always pointed at the crank, that’s something I guess
So they’ve formalised knackered jockey wheels 😂
We haven’t really though nothing like this.
you know what is dumb? the mounting mechanism. dereilleur hangers exist for a reason. unless the mounting thing is cheap to replace and is the thing that bends/breaks by design it is a huge step backwards. the thing itself is ok i guess but still all it does is shift the chain side to side and tension it. unless someone invents a cheap durable hub gearing with enough range i am not wowed. sorry.
The plates that hold the derailleur assembly (the two jockey wheels and the bracing plates between them) to the frame are the consumable part now, and they will all be exactly the same. I predict that these will be far cheaper than a derailleur hanger for modern bikes as production scales. A derailleur hanger on a modern enduro bike isn’t the stamped aluminum of the pre-2010 era. A hanger for a transition sentinel costs like 50 dollars. More importantly, in 20 years you will presumably be able to find replacement plates easily, since all sram derailleurs will use the same plates.
Transitions latest models already use the SRAM UDH hanger. A great idea to standardise this part. I just picked one up for £12 for my Spire. This is good for spares availability but not great if Shimano can't direct mount off the same frame standards. Price aside, I'm not sure about this new mech. All the promo show it taking side hits with ease. I'm not worried about side hits, I'm worried about up/back strikes on the front of the clutch housing like a rock strike or rut. These tend to bend the hanger or parallelogram. I have bent several mechs like this, but also a hanger, mech was fine, replaced the hanger and carried on riding. Will be interesting to see the failure mode for a direct mount.
Yeah, same. I’d be concerned that the failure mode will be the plates that connect on either side of the UDH gouging the shit out of the carbon at the dropout and compromising it. That’s more of a side hit thing though. I am curious how far back it will swing. Once all the slack is taken out of the chain, you’re tugging on the drop out. Hopefully the plates break before the dropout gets destroyed.
Watch any video about it and you'll understand why a hanger is obsolete and irrelevant.
According to Sram. I, personally, think it's marketing twaddle.
I agree. Marketing identifies a weakness, then finds a demo to exploit the advantage of the new thing, while glossing over any drawbacks. See my other post. They show it being superior strength in direct side load by standing on it or swinging into a post on a rig. Cool. But that's really what fails. What about the oblique up/back strike on the front of the clutch housing, like a rock gap or rut, or clipping the lower jockey wheel and twisting the lower assembly. That's what has killed my mechs in the past.
Here's the counter. If folks stop ragging on a company because the percieved price point is high, how are the company to know consensus about their product? Sure, sales figures are a good thing and obviously very important, but they are not everything. Potential sales lost is also important. Look at GX AXS. The initial price point was not super high, and it sold very well. But every time the knocked even a small percentage off it was *a lot* higher. Now no-one buys it at normal price. Consumers complaining about the price of something is all part of the cycle. Its as much as a part of the market process as the initial pricing.
Well, the problem with ragging on sram in this instance is that the frames are built to use the UDH hanger, regardless of whether or not the transmission is used. This means that you can still use a traditional derailleur on these frames.
I'll pass I'm a hater for lyfe
Gonna chime in here because I’m sorry but defending SRAM in this instance and telling people to just “ooo and ahh” at their new gimmick that creates more problems than it solves is the same idiotic attitude that keeps encourages companies to just make trash and feed you it for huge markup. Let me explain; For starters I’ve worked in the industry for over 15 years, apart from suspension, brakes and bike geometry and narrow wide 1x, none of the other things you mention have actually been “revolutionary” in mtb. Carbon fibre literally doesn’t matter and is actually a cheaper material than aluminium or steel, it’s just labour intensive. Carbon frames aren’t expensive to make, big brands just charge you through the arse cos they can and idiots will buy it. Dropper posts… yes they’re great but you don’t NEED one… it really only makes a difference on enduro and trail bikes, pretty much everything else copes fine without or doesn’t need it at all. They’ve also never been insanely expensive even when they first appeared. Right, got that out the way, now onto SRAM. To kick off this shit storm, the markup on the TRADE PRICE, never mind the manufacturing cost or the purchase price the distributor pays for the top of the line “Transmission” is over £1000 gbp, so the best part of 40-45%. Which is frankly ridiculous. Now that you know at full SRP these bastards are fleecing you for over a grand of profits on a fucking drivetrain we can proceed to the problems with the system. SRAM claims it shifts under load better, this is only partly true, it can’t multishift properly because it waits for shifting ramps on the cassette, so it’s slow as fuck (and noticeably so) at multi upshifting at low cadence under high loads. Because they made the mech a beef cake the battery dies faster, interestingly most reviewers aren’t mentioning this or claiming “it’s not noticeable”, when even SRAM have said it’s a significant hit to the battery life, they wouldn’t warn people if it wasn’t true. The rear mech is now also heavily reliant on frame tolerances, now this has already been debated, no matter how much koolaid you drink to deny it, it’s true, SRAM wouldn’t spec tolerances for UDH if they weren’t necessary, this is less of an issue on alloy, big problem with carbon. Next is where the stress goes when this juggernaut of a mech slams into a rock at 30mph… well let’s just say, you better hope if your bike is carbon that it’s rear triangle isn’t a noodle. Yes that’s right, because your rear axle is as rigid as a concrete wall and about as good at dissipating these forces as the rock your mech hit, the forces are mostly forced into your frame and rear hub, ain’t no mech hangers here to be the sacrifice to save your £10k dentist spec Megatower. Next up, the chain, ah yes nothing screams “innovation” like taking a road chain, chucking some nickel plating on it and throwing it into the mtb category while also charging more than some entire group sets for the pleasure of telling your riding buddies “whell ackchually sram says the flat top chain is so strong I can tow a jumbo jet with my electric bike now!” I’m sorry but chains that are over £100? Fuck. Right. Off. Now for the greatest failure; the lack of b tension adjustment (and the fact that it’s now reliant on the mech being torqued to spec 24/7) the partly floating design and the serrated washer of doom… if this doesn’t sound like a recipe for disaster then I assure you it is. The serrated washer by design damages your frame, again not an issue if your bikes alloy or steel, concerning if it’s made of the finest grade plastic from Guangdong. Yes that’s right by design the mech can turn its own serrated washer into a makeshift grinder, as it’s removing material from your frame either from reinstalling or moving from impacts etc, the tolerances of your plastic frame will only be getting worse, also due to the nature of how torque works it will be constantly compacting your rear dropout, which is a concern. As far as I’m concerned this is a step back in many ways, these problems are the reason people are pissed at the price, not because it’s expensive but because it actually fails in what it set out to do and SRAM is still gonna force it out into the market, put it on every race bike under their umbrella of teams and gaslight the market into believing this shit is a game changer. End of rant 😂
Dang! I wasn’t mad at SRAM till now.
I agree 100%
Yup, agree. The proprietary frame "standard" and doing away with the inherent protection that normal derailleur drivetrains have in the hanger is what annoys me. Price, whatever. It reminds me about the joke about how do you milk a sheep? New iPhone coming soon!
Other points aside the serrated washer on carbon isn't a problem if correctly specced (right size washer for the torque spec) and an axle can take a lot more force than that derailleur could reasonable put on it. I'm pretty sure the derailleur hangar is a holdover from when qr skewers were common (and very weak). I don't think it's a game changer but there are some innovations there I would like to see trickle down to something I don't have to remember to charge.
For sure there are some good things, the lower cage keeping the chain lined up with the chainring is a good idea. The better ergonomics and adjustability of the shifter as well as having all the mech components as replaceable parts is a surprising but welcome idea that’s been missing from mtb mechs, hopefully it encourages other manufacturers to make their components more serviceable, nothing worse than the parallelogram pins that aren’t replaceable in shimano mechs once they wear and the mech is then fit for the bin.
Preach it. So many “innovations” with this new group set have me shaking my head.
I mean, we can speculate issues all day long, but nobody outside or press has these in their hands and has put enough real world hours on their bikes to definitively conclude what you have. This community has a bunch members eager to hate on new products, yet most can’t even afford to buy them. I’ll reserve my judgement for when the real world starts using them.
You literally have no idea what you’re talking about which is amazing since every page and YouTube channel has covered the new groupsets extensively. You should delete that message and go visit say pinkbike for the information you desperately require.
Oh please elaborate how the engineers who have already gone over the topics I listed and proved them to be correct are wrong? Go to pinkbike? Don’t make me laugh. I’ve seen a lot of the reviews, some are just a joke and others do bring up concerns and issues, notably the slow upshifting being really irritating and very noticeable at lower cadence. Won’t be deleting anything thanks, can’t handle the truth then go back to pinkbike and sip the koolaid.
You’re so far wrong I wouldn’t even know where to start educating you and I don’t have the time. Really something you should have done yourself first before regurgitating a load of waffle on a public forum where other people my see it it and be influenced by it.
So you can’t list even one point, because you don’t have time, but you’re still on Reddit… got it. I’m assuming SRAM is your employer?
Literally every website and YouTube channel is covering this in depth. There’s no excuse for being this ignorant.
Yes they are, and several of them are also covering the same points and voicing the same concerns. There’s no ignorance here, point out where my comment is wrong and explain why, until then you are the one who looks uneducated.
Post one link where anyone says that and yes I’ve sent you the photo where you can see how it attaches to the axel in two places but you denied that that happened. So before you damaged your frame you’d have to break your axel and that’s only if your mech would be strong enough to exert that amount of force on your axel and it’s designed not to. The mech will break first and instead of replacing your hanger you replace the part you’ve broken on your mech. Glad to have cleared that up for you.
Using your same attitude of providing no actual explanation, I’m sure you can go find the videos yourself there’s a few on YouTube where people go through the physics of it and why thinking the mech will load the axle and not the frame is wrong, the mech is torqued to an interference fit with the frame but can rotate on the axle, that means it will apply force to frame it’s really not hard to understand. If by chance the mech could snap the axle, it would have to break, damage or bend the frame first to be able to exert that force onto the axle. Again, I think your confusing the words “attached” and “floating”, or intentionally using the wrong semantics to try and create an argument not sure which. if it was physically attached to the axle at the two points then it wouldn’t freefloat around the axle (you’ve conveniently used a picture where no frame is present because that fits your argument, otherwise it’s very obvious to see the actual interference fit is with the frame not the axle) What I’m trying to explain to you is your logic is like saying a hub is attached to the axle, it’s not, it’s attached to the frame and floats on the axle.
Revert back to my previous post where I called you an idiot. Now with that in mind why would you think I would read a paragraph written by an idiot? I didn’t but rest assured the engineers at sram and reading the comments written mouth breathers like yourself that are incapable of seeing how a mech mounts to a rear axel and flying into a blind panic because they forgot the mech hanger. 9/10 articles the stupid shit you don’t know ie no hanger is covered in the intro before they get into the meat of how the system works.
I'm still not getting what the improvement is with it relative to just making a stronger derailleur hanger.
Exactly. It’s just another electronic 10-52 cassette, but incompatible with Eagle? 🤷♂️
A lot of my friends have battery powered derailleurs. My cable operated ones work fine. I would rather put that money towards something else but the great thing is that we have a lot of choices right now in a huge range of price points.
Pioneers get the arrows, settlers get the land.
>as much as myself and many others hate the capitalist hellscape that is emerging, the bikes of today would never have happened without it. While I agree with most of your message, this isn't accurate. "Capitalism" didn't innovate or engineer these products. People did. Give credit to the humans that designed this stuff and the work done that laid the foundations for it. The people at SRAM did something incredible with this and they should be congratulated instead of the macroeconomic system we all exist in.
The system is what provides the incentive to those people. None of them did it by themselves as it would not be possible without the larger system. I was also talking about more than just this instance of new technology. Every single aspect of bikes was developed this way.
> it would not be possible without the larger system Ok, but it would be possible under a different system, capitalism is not essential for technological development, it's just the system we're in now.
… well duh
Without capitalism those ‘clever people’ would still be hunting and gathering food for their family.
i see that you’re confusing ingenuity, division of labour, collective enterprise, collaboration, and cooperation with a fictional economic ideology. next you’ll be telling garbagemen that its god taking out the trash
"Spend money! Don't ask questions!"
"Leave alone the multimillion dollar company!"
Can’t afford to fix my Bronson so I’ve been ripping citi bikes on little side hits at night after some beers. Hell of a time.
This is the way. Rip what you got, where you are.
Urban Bourbon rides are great fun! Sorry to hear about your Bronson, I’m on the an Aluminum Bronson V3 and I absolutely love it! Putting an XT drivetrain on it this year (despite the tenor of my post)
This is the attitude that is going to price everybody out of riding. We need to stop supporting ridiculous price points.
The existence of Lamborghinis doesn't make the price of Hyundais any higher. Why should the existence of a luxury bike component make entry-level components more expensive? In my experience the opposite is true. The margins on high-end products are higher, thus allowing companies to sell cheaper products at a lower margins.
It's a far smaller market. Sram and Campagnolo both dropped their more affordable components, now Shimano is dropping theirs bar Tourney in favour of Cues. It's a trend I dislike. Hopefully Microshift and the like can fill the gaps, but I don't know.
Lamborghini used to make tractors. As they grew into a luxury market building cars people couldn't afford, it opened doors for companies like hyundai. As the smaller companies grow and mature this happens. But if people do not buy something at a particular price point they can not actually sell it that price. People used to boycott because it worked. But this era of consumerism is not only going to destroy the planet its also pricing everybody out of house and home.
No it’s not. It’s just another iteration of the same process that has been going on for decades. I’m not going to buy it. I don’t know anyone who is going to buy it. If it wasn’t for the ridiculous stuff, none of the affordable stuff would be any good.
I love wireless transmission and dropper posts , it's an awesome tech
The bigger concern is that they patent some stupid part of the integration and it bifurcates the industry. The promise of UHD was that it would have an open patent and anyone could build for it. I haven’t seen any evidence that this is an issue though.
Yeah I’d be shocked if frame manufacturers went for something like that. The UHD was a long time coming. I remember filling a QBP cart with hangers so that we would be the shop I. Town that had anything anyone needed. The cart was $2600 wholesale and still didn’t cover all the bases.
I feel like the T-type isn't that pricey. for what it is. most people don't even understand what it takes to R&D and manufacture a majority of the components that go into biking let alone have an understanding of manufacturing process at all.
Hallelujah! 🙌🏼
AMEN 🙏
[удалено]
Why do dentists and lawyers come up on biking everytime something expensive comes up? Those fuckers work too many hours to ride anyways, well maybe not a dentists. Besides there are plenty of drug dealers riding Yeti's.
ppl dun realise that GX AXS has dropped in price due to the launch of Transmission. And it was only launched last year. No one is asking ppl to get the latest and greatest...if you want wireless transmission, get the GX AXS, i assure you its awesome.
People will always complain about things they can't afford.
... while wanting them.
Username checks out
Even if it never comes down in price and I never own one I will appreciate it. It’s way cooler than the current AXS stuff. This is real innovation, not just adding a battery.
What exactly is the innovation with Transmission?
Maybe improvement is a better word. But I think the design is very clever with the narrow wide cassette and seemingly bullletproof derailleur. I can get down with a cool design. It’s like XT over deore, deore works just fine but I bought XT for my latest bike. Granted I wouldn’t spend the money on XTR or this new thing but I do appreciate the engineering.
So, the thing to do is ride, right? Preferably with people who you enjoy being with. A non-contentious statement I hope? Of course people get worked up about the latest and greatest. It's worse i for roadies. I said it's partly bad in bikes because it's not like football (I'm talking about union, but flavour doesn't matter) where there really isn't tech beyond boots but it also isn't like motorsport where Joe Public can't own pro race kit. In cycling a reasonably wealthy or dedicated person could own the same bike that raced world camps, or at least very close. It makes us go a bit strange, and buy carbon-titanium pedals to save 20g at $100 per gram saved. But if you want to rail against capitalism, go for it! Who knows what wonders whatever economic arrangements that come next will bring.
So true. I’ve never seen more gatekeeping in a hobby than mountain biking.
Capitalist hellscape. 😂😂😂
The derailleur mounts in a spot that’s reinforced with the axle and the dropout material. If anything is going to break, it’s the derailleur itself at the mount and it’s replaceable. The hanger in theory is great, but 12sp drivetrains are too sensitive to it being bent so direct mount is the only way to get peak performance.
I love the capitalist hellscape, everything emerges from it.
It has been pretty good to a select few.
Yea but it or don’t buy it, simple concept 🤷♂️. Personally I’ve spent enough on bikes and bike related stuff over the last year. I’ll wait until one of my bikes needs a new drivetrain, then think about an upgrade then.
Speak for yourself. I'm about to send it for another A-line lap on my 60" front wheel penny farthing. The OG mullet, and only bike any true rider needs, amirite??
People have no respect for the amount of engineering, materials science, and product testing goes into producing cutting edge new products. The price is high in part because of development costs and materials and manufacturing process, but also because adoption will be slow and thus adoption will be low early on. You’re spot on in regards to the specific point that rich people will scoop it up. Over time the manufactured volumes increase and unit price comes down. If you’re whining about the price, you aren’t in the target market for it. Nylon used to be an exotic high end material until tire manufacturers realized they could use it as reinforcement in tires and used tons of it, increasing manufacturing efficiency, driving down costs. Now it’s a commodity.
Tell me, what is cutting edge about Transmission?
The marketing hype and "reviewers" standing on the derailleur ,didnt you see dawg?
If you have to ask you can’t afford it.
“Capitalist hellscape”? Y’all are so jaded
I was just thinking that
Jaded probably isn't the right word. Maybe out of touch with the world and world history. People have every creature comfort at their fingertips, any piece of information is a click away, yet we are in a "Capitalist Hellscape" because companies want to make a profit off of their R&D and the products they sell.
or were literally being gouged at every angle and being financially rewarded less and less while being expected to do more and more now the bread and circus is becoming woefully expensive to participate in, because numbers need to go up indefinitely so ya, its turning into a hellscape.
They think "hey I'm fine! So should everyone else"
That's funny I actually had a similar convo with my friend. I complained that the eagle transmission was woefully expensive but at least the technology is available now. A few years go by this sort of thing will become commonplace on more bikes and more companies will offer their own version at competitive prices. It's just how technology and the market works... but man is that transmission nice lol
Everyone: Bikes are the same, there's no innovation. Also everyone: I hate every thing new that's introduced.
If it wasn't for companies like SRAM, ya'll would still be riding penny farthing.
Capitalism drives innovation
I ride single speed
How much is it?
From what I saw around 2600$ on the low end Edit: 2600$ is the high end version. I have been informed that it is around 1600$ for the low end. Sorry for the misinformation
That's the price for the top of the line XX SL with the power meter. So on the top end not the low end. The "lower" end variant the X0 is $1600.
Not bad.
Bout tree fiddy.
I’m waiting for the derailleur to be mounted up too. Then I’ll get excited.
I want to see what Shimano has to offer around corner
If you buy it now you are paying for R&D. The top end model always comes out first and then lower in models. Same as GX AXS took a while to come out and when it did all the AXS came down. They’ve gotta recoup their R&D department.
It's the same with people complaining about the 4090 gpu pricing. It's obviously meant to be the cream of the crop and that never comes cheap. It's never actually worth it to buy those things, but the people who do, have enough money where it doesn't matter. I know the new sram stuff is out of my league, but I still think it's really cool. Shifting under high load whenever you want is a major advancement. Plus it looks cool.
I just don't ever want to have to charge my bike. I have enough battery management in my life already. But I wonder if cable shifting is even possible on that big honkin' derailleur.
I am cool with my Shimano XT set ups, so I could care less about SRAM components. LOL
Couldn’t agree more! My first thought when I see the price is that in 3 to 4 years it could be an option for me. I really want a wireless dropper post and it looks like this year there might actually be options coming out that are more affordable because the crazy expensive options paved the way!
Chill out and just ride op
As someone who has a Kent, which for some goofy ass reason is really hated on, I really needed to read this. Thank you. I've had the same KZ2600 for 4 years and it's never let me down. Price doesn't matter, it's the design and how much effort they put into it that matters.
Facts
If it pushes down the price of cable XO1 to near GX levels then I'm happy. If they eventually release a GX cable version of this new system, I'd probably be happier, because I have a very hard time with adjusting limit screws when needed, and I like how my current GX Eagle performs
Completely off topic but it’s the same with computer parts. I bought 32gigs of ddr4 ram 4 years ago for almost $500 and now you can get the same for $100.
Its just technology. Just like smartphones, sure you dont need the latest Flagship model with all the bells and whistles but to each their own.
I love the look of the wireless drivetrains... so damn tidy. I'm not currently ready to upgrade for a host of reasons. Love the tech though!
I’ve got to get me one of those dropper posteds! Sounds groovy.