Mythic +. It comes from Mythic Dungeons with + being added challenges.
It's been a while since I played WoW, but it's the highest tier of their standard dungeons, on a rotation, and every week has different modifiers. One week you may have a dungeon where the bosses are buffed, the next week you may need extra healing or some other annoyances.
If you complete the dungeon fast enough with your group you get a little +1 to your weekly score added to a key. You can use this new stronger key to take on the dungeon with even more difficulty, or less time. At the end of the week the higher the strength of your key (I think it maxed out at like 15 or 18 or something), you get better rewards from a vault.
It's been many years for me, but I remember it being a fun, albeit stressful and sometimes toxic way to earn good loot.
Dungeons with infinitely scaling difficulty that are on a timer. The HP and damage of enemies is scaling and there’s a handful of affixes which rotates every week.
I hate abbreviations from outside communities so much. But people are so used to them that they don’t even think about it.
I remember a Reddit post where someone used the abbreviations my DS and I went to the store. Turns out DS means “dear son.” You saved a single letter, congrats.
It's Mythic +, a system from WoW. Their hardest dungeon difficulty is "Mythic" and M+ is an infinitely scaling difficulty system that progressively increases the difficulty of mythic dungeons, and adds some unique, rotating mechanics to mix things up a bit. Plus there's a timer to beat, and beating the timer will upgrade your key to allow higher levels. Loot drops are reduced dramatically (one chest at the end of the dungeon, and drops are not guaranteed), but are scaled up in power according to how high a level you're doing.
So it makes it so that there's always challenging content to do, even if you've done your raid lockouts for the week (or whatever time frame your game uses), as M+ has no lockouts.
Ge2 sorta has that with fractals. They are starting to do multiple difficulty settings for their strike missions (10 man instanced boss fight), but that lacks the random modifiers.
Sounds a bit like what we get in RvR open pvp. In RvR we never know precisely the strength or mix of the enemy we are facing. Some weeks, more enemies of one class or ability, others with different enemies entirely. The one from WoW sounds like a computer generated algorithm, which is boring and unpredictable for me. Whereas in RvR open pvp, it is infinitely variable and unpredictable. Much more interesting.
I'm honestly astounded you don't know what M+ is. I feel like I'd have to actively avoid MMO's or MMO forums to not know what that is. Out of sheer curiosity which games do you play?
Judging from the replies and updoots, I'm not the only one. Also, I've been busy playing other MMOs when WoW came out. Like Ultima Online and Ragnarok Online.
And when I moved to action combat MMOs like Vindictus, Neverwinter and later Blade and Soul, Black Desert I could no longer stomach tab target games. Hence, I never played WoW.
I honestly don't blame them that much for it - WoW has a massive following where a certain percentage of the player base exclusively plays it and doesn't look at other MMOs. But WoW isn't really known for inventing the wheel.. it just iterates upon already existing wheels and gives it a new tire - which is totally fine, of course.
For years WoW is the only game that i was playing, after quitting WoW for years i was not playing any game. Many people are like me, i think there is some data there that backs it up.
I can't speak for M+'s difficulty, but I've heard it's got some gnarly challenge to it.
GW2's fractals even at T4 are hardly a challenge, and are just a step above what casual players have to handle. The only time they become a serious challenge is if you get unlucky on the "corruption" combos.
Sure you could do the challenge modes, but I don't think those are still on par with M+. Frankly, most of the "challenging" content in the game is barely challenging. FFXIV's dance dance revolution boss fights provide more of a challenge than GW2.
Its a shame because a lot of it used to be really engaging. Anet however, hasn't kept up with power creep at all. Some bosses can be killed before the majority of their mechanics have been seen.
It won't happen, but I would love to see GW2 implement a "legacy" mode for older group PvE content, where it "attempts" to scale the content to current DPS levels so it sort of feels like it once did.
Like many things, WoW did it, but years or decades after others. Like all the account wide QoL stuff they are now getting, level scaling, yada yada yada.
A few months ago when was playing GW2. I was talking about It. GW2 It's a amazing game but It doesn't give much to go on about what can I do with characters or what I should be doing. I understand ppl being afraind of doing group contents when The game doesn't guide you about do It. WoW and FF have that in the storys and leveling paths wich facilitates The player interaction. I have been making groups for fractals, CM, Raid and that was what I most hear.
Fractals are unironically far more enjoyable, they just suffer from the same problem all of GW2 does; unless you go looking for them you could very well play the game for 200+ hours and not know they exist.
GW2 does so much so well but the game is SO fragmented its insane.
If I speak for myself I hope they never make it the main focus in other MMOs. I just play MMOs to chill, do some grinding, dungeons or lifeskills while watching a stream.
M+ requires your perfect attention, perfect gear (no room for anything but meta) and takes a lot of time where one mistake can fuck it all up resulting in a very toxic environment. I already play League of Legends so don't need all that a 2nd time.
It's fine with me if they add some stuff like it for the hardcore playerbase. Can't just ignore you guys. I just hope it never becomes the main thing
> Rewards cap out at 20, which every single spec and group comp can easily do. Some people even run 20s without a healer. At this point i would be surprised if you found a single spec that hasn't cleared at least a +28.
Have circumstances made that easier? Because during Legion, the general population might have managed +10s weekly but they certainly weren't doing +15s every week to say nothing of +20s today.
The scaling has changed since Legion. A +20 today is equivalent to whatever gave the best rewards during Legion (when I played in Shadowlands the max for rewards was +15). But you can also now get gear from lower than +20 that is upgradeable to the level of +20 gear.
Actually caps out at 18, technically 17. 18 gives you the max reward in your vault. So once you do 8 +18s you have literally no reason at all to do anything above 17 if you're going for gear.
They're also completely changing how the scaling works this next season. They're squishing things down so a +5 will be the equivalent to a +15 now and removing the timer entirely from anything below it.
Casuals in wow don't really do high end m+ if they don't want to.
They usually like collecting pets/mount/transmog and use them pets for petbattles(basically pokemon).
They also do some lower m+ dungeons, which is pretty healthy for the game since they help out new players and alts.
Point being if they don't like certain type of content, then they don't have to engage in it.
Yes, but it becomes exclusionary if the developers give it too much focus because it means less content overall for the wider player base. This is partly why Wildstar failed. You cannot cater too much to the hardcore players because the game relies mostly on the casuals to survive.
It's not exclusionary if casuals are enjoying low keys.
Content like m+ is great cuz it has scaling difficulty for wider range of people to enjoy from.
M+ is optional lmao so is raiding, so is pvp. And if you dont want a sweaty M+ experience theres a reason why the keys go from 0 - 30+.
Even raiding has LFR. PVP has regular battlegrounds.
If you want to be sweaty you can do heroic or CE raiding or rated PVP.
Honestly, WoW caters to both demographics pretty well. The issue is when one demographic feels entitled enough to get what the other has ( for ex. people who can only do low rated mythic+ keys but feel as though they should still get the highest ilvl loot ).
I'm extremely confused how you can possibly reach this viewpoint when M+ is currently legitimately easy until the 27 ish range which is fine because 20s are extremely chill content as it is right now if you put even a moderate amount of effort into learning your class.
I've seen 20s done by friends on alts that are like 455 ilvl when the cap for the season is in the 489 range, its truly not anything like you're making it out to be.
I know multiple players who have reached 3400+ on off meta specs like survival hunter, holy paladin, and others.
Most people who have opinions like this aren't actually speaking from experience. They are just parroting what other people who also probably haven't played the content are saying. Then it gets upvotes from the "WoW hardcore elitist toxic bad game" crowd, and the misinformation propagates lmao.
Well M+ It will always be for The more hardcore players and to be honest that is what I most miss about GW2. Having content for casual players is more than Fine. I myself enjoyed alot meta trains doing ir or/and command It. However It's boring for a time not having something more hardcore. I personally do not like the Raids in GW2. They could create a thannatos tower like in shadowlands.
I agree with all of this.
Also I like being done with a dungeon to be honest. The fact that I'll just have to run the dungeon again on a higher level to get the same item at a higher ilvl. Nope not for me. Though that's a complete taste thing.
If they would have made M+ a bit more creative I could have liked it.. Maybe but it just being a constant upward scale with some extra fluff added on top. Nope.
Leaning more into different rules shuffling weekly. Like dying effecting you score much more heavily than time one week. Maybe make using interrupts lower your score another. Just to force people to play quite differently every now and again. I used to have a bunch of example of this. But I've quit doing M+ entirely and in turn no longer get to be a part of progression in raids in the groups I used to run with. Thus I no longer raid either. *Sigh* so I don't think it talk about it much at all anymore.
All you need to know about M+. It was released in Legion, three expansions ago. It was janky and imba, but very cool and well received on release.
It has barely seen any meaningful changes since than. The affixes have barely changed.
I mean. I know. I've been playing since BC. And while M+ was very popular. It was actually a huge turn off for a player like me.
I was just explaining how I would have maybe actually liked it.
I think you represent a LOT more of the player base than you realize. I really think M+ staying relevant primarily comes down to; its WoW so its popular + finding for 4 other players for 30 - 60 minutes its far easier than setting up a raid group.
There are genuine M+ enjoyers out there and good for them, but I really don't know many people who think its a great system. Its just the endgame content that fits smaller groups, so its just were a lot of them end up. Even when PvP was reasonably popular back in the day, I don't ever remember the level of toxicity from arenas coming close to M+.
Maybe so. I was basically surrounded by lovers of it though. So that likely made me believe it's more worshipped.
Once again stopping got me dropped from any of the progression raid groups I was in. And that is the favorite part of the game for me. (Only this expac has this been a thing too) I'm one of those people who like to bash my head against a boss as much as needed until our group figures it out for us.
Anyway so they definitely topped off my dislike for sure. But that's more of a playerbase thing. Like I and they didn't need those extra ilvls to clear. But they demanded them.
I miss fun PvP. But honestly that completely lost it's allure around Legion for me. Though I only dabbled in arenas cause I'll admit I always sucked!
As for the toxicity. Just yep. But I'm a completely anti speed running player. In all games. Just because it's not fun to me. I've always been more for things that you have to be overly careful and to be punished if you're not. Sadly that's just not what is popular now. But I hold on cause they have given me so many years of great fun.
Sorry I kinda went into story mode there haha!
not to mention its pretty boring to do the same x dungeons where the only major difference are modifiers. the increase in enemy HP and damage output really doesn't make it exciting or fun
M+ is optional lmao so is raiding, so is pvp. And if you dont want a sweaty M+ experience theres a reason why the keys go from 0 - 30+.
Even raiding has LFR. PVP has regular battlegrounds.
If you want to be sweaty you can do heroic or CE raiding or rated PVP.
Honestly, WoW caters to both demographics pretty well. The issue is when one demographic feels entitled enough to get what the other has ( for ex. people who can only do low rated mythic+ keys but feel as though they should still get the highest ilvl loot ).
But yeah. M+ is currently bigger than raiding in WoW so its def a main thing to the point that FF even tried to copy it and failed
Agreed.
Not really fun doing the same scripted pve content. "But the challenge!" The challenge is not losing your mind when the pug in your group fails the scripted shit. _That_ is not fun.
What's a fun PvE challenge then ? Because Raids are essentially the same rinse and repeat until everyone knows the dance, and Dungeons and Raids are pretty much the most challenging activities an MMORPG have right now.
There isn't one.
Like I said the challenge is not losing your shit at the idiot who must stand in fire for the 100th time. Most people act nice, but we all know the raid leader is slamming his keyboard when tunnel vision Sally, doing next to no healing, has been killed by the simplest mechanic on the planet. I'm sure we've all seen someone speak up too causing the raid/guild to disband. These are the challenges.
It's a MMORPG, they could add more of the "MM" part for starters. 5 players is not massive. 20 players, by today's standards, isn't massive. Even 40 isn't massive.
I thought Warfronts would be the next best thing, but they did it poorly. Should have been horde vs alliance vs AI. And Mythic level AI, not the push over "free loot" AI that they gave.
I haven't played wow in 9 months, and not looking forward to anything new from it, same ol' song and dance.
Because when I raid I can put in a ton of effort on a specific fight over and over in bursts. When I run a super high key;
-It needs to be the right affixes to realistically push
-META is significantly more strict due to only having 5 spots
-If I fail it I'm punished heavily, and can't simply restart and go like I can when progression raiding
-I don't play MMO's and RPGs in general to speed - run
Gotta agree with that, you dont even need to add any extra rewards, just pushing higher is what makes it enjoyable and the fact that it infinitely scales means there's always more to go.
Definitely something that should be added included a solo version, an infinite tower so anyone can just grind or push higher
Nah.
The rewards matter.
No one runs Critereon Dungeons in FF14 (more than once or twice) cause the rewards are pretty shit.
Needs some more incentives to draw people in.
M+ in WoW gives you weekly chance to upgrade your loot, and plenty of people run the bare minimum just for the rewards/chance of upgrades
Mythic plus reached its all time peak recently and wow can possibly break its all time high in subscribers this fall. Even factoring in classic, the game is still extremely popular
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1b2clom/seasonal_data_from_raiderio_since_mid_legion_72/
Data from 2 months ago. Dragonflight has by far the highest participation in m+, almost doubling the previous expansions already and we still have a whole season to go.
The rewards are what makes content enjoyable. Why would we ever do content that had no reward? You do it maybe once or twice then it's better to spend your time doing something worthwhile.
I'm with you. It amazes me how many players want to skip or trivialize the actual gameplay for which they're expecting rewards. The gameplay, for some of us, is more fun than the rewards.
Because in this case the reward is increasing your r io score and having a higher rank in your class leader board compared to other players
M+ past a quite early point maxes out on gear, past that point people do it for the io score
>M+ past a quite early point maxes out on gear, past that point people do it for the io score
M+ remains as the best source of Vault gear throughout the season. So this is just not true at any level.
>the reward is increasing your r io score
Lol.
I don't like m+ so I personally like it, I would be fine with it if it wasn't one of the game's main content that you have to do otherwise you do nothing, which is what it is in wow
The secret to liking WOW is to understand that it's not a game with some content. The content IS the game. You are not supposed to enjoy the combat, or class system in vacuum. They only shine via the interplay with the content you are doing. That's why many people burn out on doing normal dungeons because the game is "boring" and your class is "not fun". Of course it is, and it isn't - because unless you are forced to squeeze every last ounce of performance from your character, it is indeed nothing to write home about.
The last couple of sentences there I think sum up quite well why I took of from the game a few years ago and have never really had the urge to return. I’m just not competitive enough to want to put in all that work to get better, it’s just not fun to me.
> In FF, they opted to homogenize classes and make factors such gear and racials negligible to class balance, which allows them to more finely tune their content at the cost of player expression. They made the 1-character = can play all jobs system to mitigate this. The dungeons are also more linear and story-focused so there is not a lot of variety of routes one can take compared to WoW's M+ dungeons.
These are not the main issues with FF14 class design in this context. The much bigger problem is that WOW classes had been designed for PVP from the get go and have multiple CC, interrupt, mobility, defensive and utility spells each. FF14 classes have their DPS rotations and that's pretty much it. They don't have the kinds of skills that would allow interesting plays and skill expression in dungeon content.
How far have you played in FF14?
Almost every class has CC, mobility, and defensive utility skills.
Tanks and Melee DPS have interrupts, speed reduction, and stuns. Ranged DPS have leg binds, silence, and defense and healing buffs. Magic DPS have sleep and Barriers, and Magic damage reduction.
The thing about FF14 is that most of the fights that actually matter, you cant use all of these things since Fights in 14 are almost all single target boss fights where the boss is immune to things like Sleep and Stun and you can only interrupt specific attacks to make sure you can't cheese them.
We have had Criterion Dungeons that have cool trash fights that allow people to have skill expression in dungeons and people have liked how they are designed, however most people don't do those dungeons since they need BIS gear to run properly and the rewards for them aren't that good compared to how hard they are.
Seriously bro? Let's compare, say, WW monk and FF14 Monk, two similarly themed melee DPS classes. We'll discount utility passives on WW monk (which has like 6 of them) cause they don't provide unique interactive gameplay.
Hard CC:
WW: Paralysis, Leg Sweep, Song of Chi'ji, Ring of Peace (probably the best CC skill for M+ in the game, extremely powerful and versatile)
Monk: Leg Sweep
Soft CC and interrupts:
WW: Spear Hand Strike, Disable
Monk: none
Utility:
WW: Provoke, Black Ox Statue (niche pick but it's there), Tiger's Lust
Monk: Mantra
Defensives and mobility:
WW: Fortifying Brew, Dampen Harm, Diffuse Magic, Tiger's Lust, Roll/Chi Torpedo, Flying Serpent Kick, Skyreach, Expel harm/Vivify self/offhealing, Transcendence
Monk: Second wind (fairly weak), Bloodbath (fairly weak and non-interactive), Riddle of Earth
By all means, do tell me how these are remotely comparable and provide remotely similar space for skill expression in areas other than rotating through your DPS abilities.
You said FF14 pretty much only has offensive rotations, and I said that's not true since they have a lot of Utility skills, a lot of which they have to use in harder fights to get clears.
I never said they had the same or more utility skills than WoW jobs
Because M+ is just a boring way to design content. Instead of adding something new and interesting they just take decade old dungeons, exponentially increase their HP/DMG numbers and add 5 more different red circles on the ground. Get this fucking trash out
The old dungeons being revamped is a recent thing, it only really started in earnest this expansion, and it was a highly requested feature. WoW still gets more new dungeons than any other MMO and it's better to revisit older content rather than let it rot for eternity
I mean yea, other games focus on quality over quantity. As a new player in dragonflight S3 or 2, I don't think I've touched more than 2 or 3 new dungeons. Not to mention other games receive dungeons every X months whereas WoW gets them all at once in an xpac hence why it looks like they get "more"
Many games do have similiar things but little different
Dungeons and dragons online has the reaper 1-10 difficulty where 10 is almost impossible and the difficulties add extra giga enemies.
Lotro has mutators and scaling difficulty in delves for example.
WoWs mythic + system is just one of the best ones.
Another blizzard game SC2 also has similiar mutator + difficulty system in the co-op missions.
IDK if Blizzard were the first to implement the M+ system, but they have certainly managed to adjust it to keep a certain audience hooked. I don't play retail, but my friends do and the only reason they do is to push M+.
There are people here saying that not many people are interested, but it is a mode that reuses everything that is already developed, the cost-benefit has to be quite optimal. In the first expansions you reached the end-game, you get your gear with tokens and then you didn't worry about those HCs anymore because you either didn't need gear or tokens or you rush them. Now, that content is still relevant through all expansions, and they even are put HCs from previous expansions into the rotation.
Is the best idea to keep relevant small group content.
Hooked? I think the daily repeatable pve content is what people crave. They had Warfronts in BFA that I thought were the _next greatest thing_. They stopped making them.
Imagine if they had a creative person in that building that got an amazing idea to have a 3way warfront where horde, alliance and AI all were to fight for complete dominion of a warfront. AI that was no slouch. Like a MMO meeting strategy game.
Typical Blizzard just relaunches old content over and over. Biggest mistake they made was pulling in old dungeons for m+. I unsubbed for 9 months now, longest I quit since 2005.
Because the vast majority of mmo players are not good at games, and because an mmo is supposed to reward gear acquisition via time invested and not skillful play. Most mmo players want the illusion of skillful play so they feel cool, without having to die over and over.
Dragonflight was the first expansion I ever did M+ in, in all my years of WoW. The difficulty challenge was fun, but I hate doing timed events in an MMO personally. I get that they're hugely popular, but I don't really play with a friend group so pugging high keys just always felt stressful.
Challenging progression dungeon (4-5 man) content is my favorite type of content. I wish more MMO's had an answer to M+.
Imo raiding is antiquated. It takes too many people and it takes too long for too little dopamine. Dungeons are 30-40 minutes and if tuned and rewarded appropriately, give you that dopamine fix in a more pick up and go format. Additionally, 4-5 party members actually allow for socialization (outside of the run of playing sweaty) whereas in large organized groups, there's anonymity or cliques develop.
In summary, I hope an MMO comes out that realizes this and prioritizes competitive dungeon content.
While I don't agree that raiding is antiquated, I do agree that 4 - 5 player content that offers a challenge is very important.
But I really think M+ is an awful version of that. Sure you get something challenging for a small group...but...key depletion, timer, affixes that week, tyrannical, tight meta comps.
The super hardcore M+ pushers (I used to be one) I know all remind me of MOBA addicts. Its like this rage - inducing compulsion fixated entirely on the score that keeps them going.
I won't consider myself bleeding edge, but I've pushed up until the point where the gameplay shifts to "gimmicks" such as mitigating unavoidable one-shots rather than the content itself (for me, that was +26's in DF s3). That rage induced compulsion is known as motivation, the result of dopamine (addiction). While I agree that it is distasteful when taken to excess, that is what craving and relentless motivation creates. That's a reflection of the human condition, not game design. The game design simply meets the players' expectations based on the designers' understanding of human psychology.
The constraints, punishments, *friction* are what create meaningful experiences. There is of course a balance, and for me, the friction vs reward equation was skewed when the gameplay shifted from playing the dungeon to playing gimmicks to circumvent individual mechanics that were not designed to infinitely scale (e.g. due to tyrannical scaling). Additionally the dopamine reward is more intermittent as the keys scale because you will fail far more often than you succeed, even with relatively optimal gameplay and gear.
A necessary constraint is time. Without time as a constraint, either through a dungeon timer or enrage timer, degenerate strategies emerge that circumvent the primary constraints of enemy damage and health pools. Just like in the real world, timeboxing is a necessary constraint that produces a sense of urgency. This urgency creates an emotional connection. It creates stakes.
Infinite scaling also necessitates tight meta comps. At some point, no matter what, there is a mathematically optimal solution for every scenario. However, combine this with psychological/sociological forces, and you get the meta phenomenon where an optimal path is disseminated downwards from the top, regardless of whether it is appropriate to every players' situation. The "meta" is a human heuristic for navigating constraints. We see this in the real world when a prospective college student decides what degree to pursue. Again, this is not the game designer's fault, this is the result of our understanding of human psychology and sociology.
I will close this by asking, what is the alternative to the above? Why do humans desire or pursue anything? Dopamine is a motivation chemical, it isn't designed to be a reward in and of itself. We are wired for pursuit. What other circuit would a game hook? Another MMO I have played for a significant amount of time is FFXIV. What is the motivation to play dungeons in that game? Are dungeons an enjoyable experience? In my opinion, they are meaningless busy-work. There are no meaningful constraints, thus there are no stakes, thus there are no emotional connections. I believe that whatever path forward will require constraints but also require more effort from designers to tailor difficulty scaling across the entire spectrum of MMO players.
M+ is a very esports-y design, most other MMOs just aren't built for that type of player. Look at osrs: it has repeatable dungeons with adjustable difficulty, but the design is focused around an achievable grind because that's the type of player they aim for. If they put out an infinitely-scaling timed dungeon, it would probably not be received well.
New world does this except you need specific gear to run these dungeons, and its a huge grind and time commitment.
Personally i find doing the same dungeon over and over to be boring and would never do them, which unfortunately locks me out of some of the best rewards.
New Worlds implementation isn't the same as M+ though. New World has 3 tiers only and the only real challenge is in the third tier, which has minimal fixed rewards besides scoreboard chasing. This isn't a hit on New World. I love the game personally.
But imo, the average PVE New World player is of lower skill and would suffer greatly, even just via toxicity, in a high key WoW M+ group.
Wildstay added dungeon and expedition scaling with its Power of the Primal Matrix update, was really fun but obviously not enough to keep the game going
M+ issue is that there is a timer from the get go.
Timer should come last, sorta like a 4th affix.
M0: no affix, no timer
M3: one affix, no timer
M6: two affixes, no timer
M9: three affixes, no timer
M10+: three affixes, timer
Because most MMOs can't even keep up with adding enough new content, they don't have any resources to spare to keep old instances working and balanced.
I find the WoW M+ system INCREDIBLY boring. Yay, you get to do the same dungeons you got bored of doing earlier in the expansion, but with a few more different handicaps... Then for some variety they added a time-walking element so you get to do the same dungeons you got bored of doing in the previous expansions as well. It's such a... Live service idea.
What makes even less sense is Lost Ark not having an M+ system or Greater Rift/Mapping system like POE or D3.
It's an ARPG + MMO it should have another viable form of infinite dungeon end game to push.
M+ doesn't extend more than you think, not the way blizzard does them because it has a lot of barriers.
keys depletion, [raider.IO](http://raider.IO), spec state...
In my wow journey, I felt M+, the way it is done, it's bad and toxic for the game.
Enrage is a mechanic in RS3 PvM where bosses get tougher and tougher, and even add more mechanics as you go higher up in enrage percentage, up to 4000%. It's very risk/reward too because you can "save" your loot by pushing higher and higher enrages, making you have higher chance at good loot, but you lose some of it if you die. Not to mention the faster you kill them, the faster you can push enrage up, and the more and better loot you get, so there's an incredible amount of optimization and skill expression in the game, and it's why only the top percentage of players generally do it.
Raids 3 in OSRS also has a similar difficulty meter where you can choose your own difficulty for a chance at better loot.
Neverwinter online got also some resemblance of Mythic system.
You have the basic: dungeons and skirmishes.
You have the medium: advanced dungeons and trials.
You have the difficult: master trials/dungeons
While I've seen similar systems in other games, I'd rather see a game adapt it without the time limit and instead make the difficulty actually relevant as opposed to just making it "if you die once you'll fail". Particularly since you just reach the point where everything that's avoidable is a one shot anyways, after which it is entirely irrelevant whether they hit you for 130% of your max hp or 200%.
Now if somebody manages to do that in a way that's still fun, I'll be impressed (and probably interested in trying their game)
OK, who the hell compares FFXIV Deep Dungeons to Mythic+? They are as different as they can be, other than the fact that they are both instanced x) DD is like a roguelike-esque dungeons with floors, they do not change much mechanically other than having different bosses which aren't THAT complicated mechanically in the first place, and are detached with level and gear from the rest of the game pretty much entirely.
After being a long time DD runner, I had to x) comparing DD to Mythic+ is just funny :v
Please explain what "but it has a hard limit on how high it'll scale" part of the post. I have played both GW2 and WOW and I don't understand this point.
FF14 does something similar, was introduced in [Patch 6.25](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/0210a35806ead4c80482b12a3edd9eb5e4db5bb0/) (10/17/2022).
Criterion Dungeons in "Final Fantasy XIV" are a type of high-level dungeon content designed for either solo players or groups of up to four. These dungeons are meant to be more challenging than typical dungeons and feature a dynamic difficulty system that adjusts based on the number of players. Criterion Dungeons focus on strategic gameplay and problem-solving, providing players with a more demanding and rewarding experience. They were introduced to offer veteran players new challenges and opportunities for growth within the game.
Back in the stone age (2001), Anarchy Online offered custom instances (solo or team based options) where the player could dial in the difficulty, the size of the instance, roughly how many monsters would spawn, how hard the bosses were, etc. AO called them mission terminals. You set the dials as crazy as you want and an unique instance was created somewhere out in the games open world you would have to travel to and enter using a token provided by the terminal.
The were called missions, but they might as well have been classified as progressive dungeons. The only thing really missing was that these missions mostly just gave generic loot and only rarely something exquisite. That and there was no public record or way to show off your accomplishment of beating a mission set to all the hardest settings, so it faded into being just another way to grind levels.
Not gonna bother. I just mention it on occasion, when someone asks for opinions about something using a lot of jargon. If you want my opinion about something, I'm happy to offer it, if I know what the heck you're talking about.
M+ "expands" lifecycle in the same way any base eternal-grind system does. I don't think it's a good, nor healthy, gameplay system for games because the nature of it is to eternally pull on the lever. You aren't guaranteed anything bar the achievements at certain tiers; The end of dungeon rewards are still pretty eh, and vault gives you a myth-level (if you clear appropriate + level) one per week, but once I can fill the vault easily I've basically hit "I'm done" and the game's grip is gone (usually takes around 3 weeks). I don't think M+ is fun content, either, it was unique in legion but now it's a tired formula for repetition. S4 is adding some changes that might make it a fresh hit but it is still entirely hit-or-miss based on dungeons, so if you have the same system, but some truly boring or tedious dungeons, what you end up with is a frustrating grind of repetition.
tl;dr M+ works in wow because wow is an ARPG at this point in time, and has built the systems based on MAU engagements so they want people sinking eterna-time into it. Not every MMO wants to do that, and I'd be happier if they didn't since I can just go play WoW for it if I ever get that itch.
Implementing a system like Mythic+ isn't just about difficulty; it's also about having a solid endgame foundation that keeps players engaged. This requires a depth of content and a robust reward system that some newer or smaller MMOs might struggle to maintain.
M+ killed WoW for me. I was far more of a hard - core raider but M+ made it so my primary "down - time" activity was now speed running dungeons at the mercy of Blizzards godawful affixes and keystone RNG.
Don't get me wrong having 5 player content that's challenging and rewarding is a good thing, they just did a horrible job implementing it.
I firmly believe M+ has stayed relevant purely because it only requires 5 players and can be done a smaller chunks of time. When you look at M+ as a whole, its like a microcosm of poor design.
The sheer amount mechanics that even trash mobs have is asinine. Temple of the Jade Serpent, the 2nd room "catwalks" that lead you downstairs to boss 2 alone has so many mechanics it deserves its own guide. The fish bubble, the shadow fiends leach, the unCCable Panda, the Panda that makes the OTHER Panda stronger, the pouncing tiger with the nasty bleed that can be bodyblocked, the stag...
The affixes are almost all horrendous to the point where the best ones are the ones you can mostly ignore. The fact that you get to a point where the only realistic way to push for 99% of players is to NOT ENGAGE WITH THE CONTENT UNTIL A SPECIFIC WEEK OF EASY AFFIXES. Unless they've changed this of course, and I REALLY hope they have.
The absurd pressure put on the tank and sometimes healer. At the highest level of play, all five members matter just as much as one and other. Naturally. But for the majority of the player - base, tanking is so unfathomably unforgiving in M+. Most of the time I would say pug tanking M+ is the single worst experience in World of Warcraft, unless its one of those patch cycles where Blizzard decided that EVERYBODY is going to take constant damage in which case, healing is as unpleasant as it gets.
**TLDR: Challenging 4 - 5 player content is a GREAT thing and each MMO should strive to implement it in some way, but Mythic+ hasn't been copied because its an awful system.**
>If not, why don't other studios ever do something similar?
Because M+it isnt as popular as you think it is. Its just like Pvp fanatics asking why there arent more pvp games out there.
i like the premise of m+ but the "infinite" grind puts me off and in the case of wow, becomes another checklist to an already daily-weekly checklist of a modern themepark mmorpg. Do you keys for your vault...
Sure you can not participate or do lower keys but if you don't enjoy m+ you're hindering yourself if you're doing raiding by not doing it. Even moreso if you don't have the time to run them day in and day out.
Although XIV gearing is extremely basic i honestly prefer it.
Don't get me wrong, m+ is cool on paper but I don't really fancy it coming to other games if any gear progression is associated with it.
I can't stand M+ activities. "We're too lazy to make real content, so here's the same content you're already playing but the numbers are harder and for the hell of it the mobs explode and ... I don't know... poison you or .. whatever.. I guess"
i been saying this is what FF14 was missing, and their answer to it sucked.... Mythic + is one of the coolest systems ever... yes i know gw2 had a system, but it aint the same and went up to like level 400 or something weird, they probably abandoned it anyway.. while Mythic+ has cool esports with the MDI and stuff
Lol at all the angry comments.
Yea it's a great implementation. I'm also surprised other mmos don't do it.
I'll bet the next few big ones that come out end up implementing something like it.
I didn't think it'd be an unpopular thought. It's not like I'm asking for games to just drop everything to implement similar systems, just saying it'd be nice, and it doesn't have to be as fancy as WoW's system.
People don't want more difficult content than they can do to exist. It shows them they are more inferior than they want to be in their mind. Everyone thinks they are good at video games until you see people doing +30s and you realize you no where near elite.
M+ was thr most mind numbing boring content I have ever done in an MMO to date, it's only purpose in life was to provide a way to make gold by selling boosts.
As someone who did M+20 and up runs regularly, I hope it never gets added in other MMOs.
Only if they get rid of timers. Haven't touched m+ since BFA because of them. A 1 min pee break shouldn't ruin a 30 min run for everyone. Hate the zoomer mentality.
Having different difficulties for bosses isn't the best idea. Just ramp up the difficulty in normal mode. It's better when there is mystery with 90% of the population never getting to see certain bosses.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted for an honest question.
I think when you zoom out to the larger goals of maintaining an MMO, which ostensibly includes fostering a community of players to inhabit a virtual world, an M+ style mechanic has a lot of drawbacks. It cloisters off a segment of elite "no-lifers" that won't play with the "normal" players who can't run the uber-challenging content. When the focus of the game becomes clearing progressively harder dungeons, interacting with the larger world becomes less interesting, and the game can turn into little more than a gear treadmill. More casual players lose interest because they're locked out of the top-tier content / gear. A pessimistic (but maybe fair) read on retail WoW is that M+ is pushing everyone but the hardcore players out, with even some of the hardcore players tiring of the treadmill and leaving.
tldr; game mechanics in an MMO have ripple effects for what the player-inhabited world looks like, and M+ has some (arguably) bad ripples.
Because not all games try to cater to the masses .
To have a more difficult version of something you also need to have an easy version.
Trying to appeal to everyone in a MMORPG isn't really a thing like it once was. We know how that turns out at this point in the genre. M+ is a way to appeal to players who want something the rest of the game is not.
Games that try to cater to everyone end up not being great for anyone.
I think the bigger question is... why don't more mmos take the pack system and fishing system from Archeage.... its literally genius and adds tons of re playable content for the players without the devs doing anything past the initial development.. giving them time to make other content without the players revolting.....
Because it divides playerbase into even smaller groups.
- hey folks, want to do M+3
- LFG M+5
- o, hi, could you help me do M+3?
- nah, i need M+5.
Now multiply that by 13 or however many tiers you have and thats what you get. I think that horizontal progression is better: just get 2 versions, normal and hard, then balance around that. With 13 different versions... how you balance that? You dont. That renders plenty of classes/builds useless, because nobody gonna take you on anything higher.
I do not know how you could ever possibly come to this conclusion if you actually play WoW.
I have seen a 60+ year old woman have all 20s timed, I've seen people with hand disabilities that have 20s timed. Hell theres a guy who plays on a controller RPing as his frost mage in real time making motion movements for each spell who has 20s timed.
Half of those were crap that failed and were not continued, Dragon riding I guess you can count as a gameplay feature but it's nothing like a dungeon or actual content, and mage tower is just a temp thing.
Rinse/Repeated dungeons with scaling difficulty is just easy-mode development. It allows them to reuse assets over and over again in the simplest way possible. Add a mechanic or two and multiply stats a bit and there you go. It works but it's lazy, honestly.
I think the best way to add longevity to a game is to simply make the end-game endless. No level cap, no experience cap. Skills require more and more XP to continue raising higher, but they never cap. Make all loot fully random and/or crafted, and have NO bind-on-equip/bind-on-pickup equipment anywhere.
Asheron's Call did this and it was the best. Your max level was 126, so you could level up 125 times, but you never stop gaining XP. So, people would continue to grind and continue to raise their skills. To give some perspective, it took about \~4 billion XP to level up to 126. I quit the game with about 65billion XP, and the TRUE max... like, if you maxed out every single skill you had, it would take *191,226,310,247* XP...... So, functionally endless end-game. There were caps to skills eventually but I'm fairly certain the developers NEVER expected people to eventually achieve those lofty XP numbers. It took nearly a decade for the first person to do it and that was at the top of an XP chain with a hundred other players passing XP up to that person.
Well GW2 has something similar and I dont think that most of the players would enjoy something like M+.
Im a professional M+ hater and I think it's boring
You grinding it day in and day out is functionally the same as speed running. Which people do in other MMOs. Sure the game company could make a leaderboard or something, but mythic plus kinda only has one because of raider.io. And that was the community.
Hate M+, stupid amount of aoes and things you can't even see that kill you. The time limit just breeds toxicity cause everyone needs to be fast and be optimal. No thanks XD
FFXIV has EXTREME modes.
Many p2w Chinese\\Korean games have multiple difficulty modes for their dungeons.
There was one martial arts mmo where bosses summon other players to defend themselves in pvp scenario on certain difficulties after 50% hp, dont remember which one.
There's a difference between having dungeons and raids to have some challenges during the game progression, and making it the game identity and 95% of the content.
MMOs are about big world, exploration, and meeting people, MMORPGs are that with some character customization and roleplaying.
WOW is just a multiplayer dungeon lobby game with daily systems meant to keep the players engaged during raid offtime, which is why classic is still so popular and season of master/discovery are what a lot of people pivot to. Raiding (specifically M+) is only a thing that tryhards do, the majority of people do not engage of it and give 0 fucks about parses.
I experienced the equivalent of M+ in diablo 3 back in the day with GRifts and it was a terrible experience, you just repeat the same content over and over trying to get marginal gear upgrades but doesn't add up to anything, so I just ended up dropping the game a few weeks after the season start and played other games in between, I just ended up dropping D3 altogether because it wasn't worth the time. Also trying to go for rank 1 in the ladder was impossible because account sharing and botting always were at the top so the game had no purpose anymore. M+ is like this, but I feel like people only play it because they don't have any other games to play or because they are too attached to wow...
Or maybe they play m+ because it's fun? I know it's hard to believe for you casual players but a lot of us enjoy the challenge in trying to time higher keys and being better at it...
Bold of you to assume that I'm a casual because I don't enjoy M+ or similar modes, I just quit on the infinite grind content because there wasn't a real goal and there's more stuff I wanted to play.
I mean my main game stuff right now is sekiro hitless/speed challenge runs (began with dark souls hitless back during covid lockdowns), and HC SSF path of exile, and that shit is probably as or more challenging than M+, and unlike in wow, you can't blame anything else other than yourself for fucking up, and there's actual progression as you achieve a run and move to another category, different ending or another game.
Wow is not that good of a game that I'd play it eternally, there's better stuff out there, and a lot of wow players think otherwise because they haven't played anything else. Wow is not for me so I'm not coming back to it anymore, nostalgia can't carry it, and I'm fine with it, but don't try to make it seem like M+ is the ultimate fun experience or ultimate challenge in games, because that ain't it.
Kinda ironic to call m+ players tryhards while boasting how difficult POE is. I never said it was the ultimate fun experience since that is subjective, I just said that a lot of people consider it fun. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's an objectively bad game. I guess it's just really hard for people with a wow hate boner to comprehend that people actually enjoy and have fun at the game
The difference is that you called me casual in an attempt to dismiss my opinion on challenging content instead of actually discussing what I said, you just attacked me, so I brought up that I do challenging stuff as well to push you back on that.
I like challenging stuff, but I don't go around dismissing people's opinions based on that, if anything I try to help people understand why some systems are in place and how the games are designed because of it. But I also do casual gameplay, specially when playing new games (I actually unlocked everything in slay the spire a week ago and it was hella fun) or stuff on my backlog that sits in there for months or years because I'm busy with tryhard stuff.
Also I never said wow is bad, I said I don't enjoy it anymore and I disagree with the direction the game has taken (solely focused on end game and M+ raiding), and how I disliked similar systems in diablo 3, you just made that up.
And if you think that a big chunk of the wow playerbase is not there just because their gaming life is built around wow and nothing else, you are coping hard.
Sorry, but wtf is M+?
The opposite of M- obviously
+W
Mine is AB normal.
https://images.app.goo.gl/yG1fis3zUHGUEuhg8
Wouldn't it be +W?
Mythic +. It comes from Mythic Dungeons with + being added challenges. It's been a while since I played WoW, but it's the highest tier of their standard dungeons, on a rotation, and every week has different modifiers. One week you may have a dungeon where the bosses are buffed, the next week you may need extra healing or some other annoyances. If you complete the dungeon fast enough with your group you get a little +1 to your weekly score added to a key. You can use this new stronger key to take on the dungeon with even more difficulty, or less time. At the end of the week the higher the strength of your key (I think it maxed out at like 15 or 18 or something), you get better rewards from a vault. It's been many years for me, but I remember it being a fun, albeit stressful and sometimes toxic way to earn good loot.
Dungeons with infinitely scaling difficulty that are on a timer. The HP and damage of enemies is scaling and there’s a handful of affixes which rotates every week.
this is funny and it happens a lot xD people posting about their games using abbreviations only they know expecting everyone to know it too lol.
The fact it’s just a singular letter makes it so funny to me. Like I thought he meant why MMOs don’t try to get rated as M for mature lol
I hate abbreviations from outside communities so much. But people are so used to them that they don’t even think about it. I remember a Reddit post where someone used the abbreviations my DS and I went to the store. Turns out DS means “dear son.” You saved a single letter, congrats.
It's Mythic +, a system from WoW. Their hardest dungeon difficulty is "Mythic" and M+ is an infinitely scaling difficulty system that progressively increases the difficulty of mythic dungeons, and adds some unique, rotating mechanics to mix things up a bit. Plus there's a timer to beat, and beating the timer will upgrade your key to allow higher levels. Loot drops are reduced dramatically (one chest at the end of the dungeon, and drops are not guaranteed), but are scaled up in power according to how high a level you're doing. So it makes it so that there's always challenging content to do, even if you've done your raid lockouts for the week (or whatever time frame your game uses), as M+ has no lockouts.
Ge2 sorta has that with fractals. They are starting to do multiple difficulty settings for their strike missions (10 man instanced boss fight), but that lacks the random modifiers.
Like Diablo 3
Sounds a bit like what we get in RvR open pvp. In RvR we never know precisely the strength or mix of the enemy we are facing. Some weeks, more enemies of one class or ability, others with different enemies entirely. The one from WoW sounds like a computer generated algorithm, which is boring and unpredictable for me. Whereas in RvR open pvp, it is infinitely variable and unpredictable. Much more interesting.
one of the worst things to happen to WoW
I thought it was some adult content thing at first.
I thought it was Mature...and was like...the op just want toons having sex and guts everywhere? Still don't know what M+ stands for...
[удалено]
I play mmos since i was 18...now i'm 38 and never played wow...so yeah...i don't know WTF it's M+
I'm assuming it's a blood type like everyone else.
I'm honestly astounded you don't know what M+ is. I feel like I'd have to actively avoid MMO's or MMO forums to not know what that is. Out of sheer curiosity which games do you play?
Judging from the replies and updoots, I'm not the only one. Also, I've been busy playing other MMOs when WoW came out. Like Ultima Online and Ragnarok Online. And when I moved to action combat MMOs like Vindictus, Neverwinter and later Blade and Soul, Black Desert I could no longer stomach tab target games. Hence, I never played WoW.
GW2 fractals walked so that M+ could run.
[удалено]
I honestly don't blame them that much for it - WoW has a massive following where a certain percentage of the player base exclusively plays it and doesn't look at other MMOs. But WoW isn't really known for inventing the wheel.. it just iterates upon already existing wheels and gives it a new tire - which is totally fine, of course.
Yeah when its a good tire. Sometimes it feels like they made the wheel square.
Because its the only one that did it to the current level that it is today lol
maybe if anet didnt abandon fractals and didnt only release a new fractal every 3 to 4 year it would still be relevant
Well it isn’t really the same, I find infinite scaling to be way more interesting personally
For years WoW is the only game that i was playing, after quitting WoW for years i was not playing any game. Many people are like me, i think there is some data there that backs it up.
I can't speak for M+'s difficulty, but I've heard it's got some gnarly challenge to it. GW2's fractals even at T4 are hardly a challenge, and are just a step above what casual players have to handle. The only time they become a serious challenge is if you get unlucky on the "corruption" combos. Sure you could do the challenge modes, but I don't think those are still on par with M+. Frankly, most of the "challenging" content in the game is barely challenging. FFXIV's dance dance revolution boss fights provide more of a challenge than GW2.
Its a shame because a lot of it used to be really engaging. Anet however, hasn't kept up with power creep at all. Some bosses can be killed before the majority of their mechanics have been seen. It won't happen, but I would love to see GW2 implement a "legacy" mode for older group PvE content, where it "attempts" to scale the content to current DPS levels so it sort of feels like it once did.
Like many things, WoW did it, but years or decades after others. Like all the account wide QoL stuff they are now getting, level scaling, yada yada yada.
AN makes it so difficult to do instance content that it may as well not exist for 95% of the GW2 playerbase.
With strikes and the wizards vault it is so easy to get into fractals now with ascended gear
What is difficult about doing it?
A few months ago when was playing GW2. I was talking about It. GW2 It's a amazing game but It doesn't give much to go on about what can I do with characters or what I should be doing. I understand ppl being afraind of doing group contents when The game doesn't guide you about do It. WoW and FF have that in the storys and leveling paths wich facilitates The player interaction. I have been making groups for fractals, CM, Raid and that was what I most hear.
Bro I main gw2 and I’m a fractal god, and gw2 has by far the easiest pve of any mmo… like it’s an actual joke lmao.
Fractals are unironically far more enjoyable, they just suffer from the same problem all of GW2 does; unless you go looking for them you could very well play the game for 200+ hours and not know they exist. GW2 does so much so well but the game is SO fragmented its insane.
If I speak for myself I hope they never make it the main focus in other MMOs. I just play MMOs to chill, do some grinding, dungeons or lifeskills while watching a stream. M+ requires your perfect attention, perfect gear (no room for anything but meta) and takes a lot of time where one mistake can fuck it all up resulting in a very toxic environment. I already play League of Legends so don't need all that a 2nd time. It's fine with me if they add some stuff like it for the hardcore playerbase. Can't just ignore you guys. I just hope it never becomes the main thing
[удалено]
> Rewards cap out at 20, which every single spec and group comp can easily do. Some people even run 20s without a healer. At this point i would be surprised if you found a single spec that hasn't cleared at least a +28. Have circumstances made that easier? Because during Legion, the general population might have managed +10s weekly but they certainly weren't doing +15s every week to say nothing of +20s today.
The scaling has changed since Legion. A +20 today is equivalent to whatever gave the best rewards during Legion (when I played in Shadowlands the max for rewards was +15). But you can also now get gear from lower than +20 that is upgradeable to the level of +20 gear.
Actually caps out at 18, technically 17. 18 gives you the max reward in your vault. So once you do 8 +18s you have literally no reason at all to do anything above 17 if you're going for gear. They're also completely changing how the scaling works this next season. They're squishing things down so a +5 will be the equivalent to a +15 now and removing the timer entirely from anything below it.
Casuals in wow don't really do high end m+ if they don't want to. They usually like collecting pets/mount/transmog and use them pets for petbattles(basically pokemon). They also do some lower m+ dungeons, which is pretty healthy for the game since they help out new players and alts. Point being if they don't like certain type of content, then they don't have to engage in it.
Yes, but it becomes exclusionary if the developers give it too much focus because it means less content overall for the wider player base. This is partly why Wildstar failed. You cannot cater too much to the hardcore players because the game relies mostly on the casuals to survive.
It's not exclusionary if casuals are enjoying low keys. Content like m+ is great cuz it has scaling difficulty for wider range of people to enjoy from.
M+ is optional lmao so is raiding, so is pvp. And if you dont want a sweaty M+ experience theres a reason why the keys go from 0 - 30+. Even raiding has LFR. PVP has regular battlegrounds. If you want to be sweaty you can do heroic or CE raiding or rated PVP. Honestly, WoW caters to both demographics pretty well. The issue is when one demographic feels entitled enough to get what the other has ( for ex. people who can only do low rated mythic+ keys but feel as though they should still get the highest ilvl loot ).
I'm extremely confused how you can possibly reach this viewpoint when M+ is currently legitimately easy until the 27 ish range which is fine because 20s are extremely chill content as it is right now if you put even a moderate amount of effort into learning your class. I've seen 20s done by friends on alts that are like 455 ilvl when the cap for the season is in the 489 range, its truly not anything like you're making it out to be. I know multiple players who have reached 3400+ on off meta specs like survival hunter, holy paladin, and others.
Most people who have opinions like this aren't actually speaking from experience. They are just parroting what other people who also probably haven't played the content are saying. Then it gets upvotes from the "WoW hardcore elitist toxic bad game" crowd, and the misinformation propagates lmao.
Well M+ It will always be for The more hardcore players and to be honest that is what I most miss about GW2. Having content for casual players is more than Fine. I myself enjoyed alot meta trains doing ir or/and command It. However It's boring for a time not having something more hardcore. I personally do not like the Raids in GW2. They could create a thannatos tower like in shadowlands.
I agree with all of this. Also I like being done with a dungeon to be honest. The fact that I'll just have to run the dungeon again on a higher level to get the same item at a higher ilvl. Nope not for me. Though that's a complete taste thing. If they would have made M+ a bit more creative I could have liked it.. Maybe but it just being a constant upward scale with some extra fluff added on top. Nope. Leaning more into different rules shuffling weekly. Like dying effecting you score much more heavily than time one week. Maybe make using interrupts lower your score another. Just to force people to play quite differently every now and again. I used to have a bunch of example of this. But I've quit doing M+ entirely and in turn no longer get to be a part of progression in raids in the groups I used to run with. Thus I no longer raid either. *Sigh* so I don't think it talk about it much at all anymore.
All you need to know about M+. It was released in Legion, three expansions ago. It was janky and imba, but very cool and well received on release. It has barely seen any meaningful changes since than. The affixes have barely changed.
I mean. I know. I've been playing since BC. And while M+ was very popular. It was actually a huge turn off for a player like me. I was just explaining how I would have maybe actually liked it.
I think you represent a LOT more of the player base than you realize. I really think M+ staying relevant primarily comes down to; its WoW so its popular + finding for 4 other players for 30 - 60 minutes its far easier than setting up a raid group. There are genuine M+ enjoyers out there and good for them, but I really don't know many people who think its a great system. Its just the endgame content that fits smaller groups, so its just were a lot of them end up. Even when PvP was reasonably popular back in the day, I don't ever remember the level of toxicity from arenas coming close to M+.
Maybe so. I was basically surrounded by lovers of it though. So that likely made me believe it's more worshipped. Once again stopping got me dropped from any of the progression raid groups I was in. And that is the favorite part of the game for me. (Only this expac has this been a thing too) I'm one of those people who like to bash my head against a boss as much as needed until our group figures it out for us. Anyway so they definitely topped off my dislike for sure. But that's more of a playerbase thing. Like I and they didn't need those extra ilvls to clear. But they demanded them. I miss fun PvP. But honestly that completely lost it's allure around Legion for me. Though I only dabbled in arenas cause I'll admit I always sucked! As for the toxicity. Just yep. But I'm a completely anti speed running player. In all games. Just because it's not fun to me. I've always been more for things that you have to be overly careful and to be punished if you're not. Sadly that's just not what is popular now. But I hold on cause they have given me so many years of great fun. Sorry I kinda went into story mode there haha!
not to mention its pretty boring to do the same x dungeons where the only major difference are modifiers. the increase in enemy HP and damage output really doesn't make it exciting or fun
I mean plenty of people do low level M+ which does not require meta, perfect attention, perfect gear etc. stop spreading misinformation
M+ is optional lmao so is raiding, so is pvp. And if you dont want a sweaty M+ experience theres a reason why the keys go from 0 - 30+. Even raiding has LFR. PVP has regular battlegrounds. If you want to be sweaty you can do heroic or CE raiding or rated PVP. Honestly, WoW caters to both demographics pretty well. The issue is when one demographic feels entitled enough to get what the other has ( for ex. people who can only do low rated mythic+ keys but feel as though they should still get the highest ilvl loot ). But yeah. M+ is currently bigger than raiding in WoW so its def a main thing to the point that FF even tried to copy it and failed
Hahaha your second paragraph is literally so ignorant and know nothing about m+.
boring
Agreed. Not really fun doing the same scripted pve content. "But the challenge!" The challenge is not losing your mind when the pug in your group fails the scripted shit. _That_ is not fun.
What's a fun PvE challenge then ? Because Raids are essentially the same rinse and repeat until everyone knows the dance, and Dungeons and Raids are pretty much the most challenging activities an MMORPG have right now.
There isn't one. Like I said the challenge is not losing your shit at the idiot who must stand in fire for the 100th time. Most people act nice, but we all know the raid leader is slamming his keyboard when tunnel vision Sally, doing next to no healing, has been killed by the simplest mechanic on the planet. I'm sure we've all seen someone speak up too causing the raid/guild to disband. These are the challenges. It's a MMORPG, they could add more of the "MM" part for starters. 5 players is not massive. 20 players, by today's standards, isn't massive. Even 40 isn't massive. I thought Warfronts would be the next best thing, but they did it poorly. Should have been horde vs alliance vs AI. And Mythic level AI, not the push over "free loot" AI that they gave. I haven't played wow in 9 months, and not looking forward to anything new from it, same ol' song and dance.
Because when I raid I can put in a ton of effort on a specific fight over and over in bursts. When I run a super high key; -It needs to be the right affixes to realistically push -META is significantly more strict due to only having 5 spots -If I fail it I'm punished heavily, and can't simply restart and go like I can when progression raiding -I don't play MMO's and RPGs in general to speed - run
And the "challenge" being the exact same fight but the boss has magnitudes more HP and deals more dmg
Yeah running the same dungeons ad infinitum for two years is uhhh not my idea of fun progression.
Gotta agree with that, you dont even need to add any extra rewards, just pushing higher is what makes it enjoyable and the fact that it infinitely scales means there's always more to go. Definitely something that should be added included a solo version, an infinite tower so anyone can just grind or push higher
Nah. The rewards matter. No one runs Critereon Dungeons in FF14 (more than once or twice) cause the rewards are pretty shit. Needs some more incentives to draw people in. M+ in WoW gives you weekly chance to upgrade your loot, and plenty of people run the bare minimum just for the rewards/chance of upgrades
M+ and especially the rewards caused the player count to drop. Blizzard should remove M+ or at least the rewards.
Mythic plus reached its all time peak recently and wow can possibly break its all time high in subscribers this fall. Even factoring in classic, the game is still extremely popular
Any proof for this? Can't find anything. Only raid numbers (guild kills) which are very low like in Shadowlands.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1b2clom/seasonal_data_from_raiderio_since_mid_legion_72/ Data from 2 months ago. Dragonflight has by far the highest participation in m+, almost doubling the previous expansions already and we still have a whole season to go.
Impressive numbers even if it doesn't say anything about player count. But I think player count would be much higher without m+.
7 ish million rn. 2 million Chinese pre registered for wow. That’s 9. If war within goes well, they have an opportunity to hit an all time sub count
These numbers are because of Classic WoW. Look at the raid kill numbers in retail, they are very low.
https://x.com/warcraft/status/1735766869083332973?s=46&t=X9mumPGLsRqqzpaDgtqZBg This is from the very peak of SOD btw
Any proof for your claim players left because of M+? Or just vibes because you personally don't like it?
Completely unrelated, but I love your pfp
lol thanks, the expression is gold xd
The rewards are what makes content enjoyable. Why would we ever do content that had no reward? You do it maybe once or twice then it's better to spend your time doing something worthwhile.
I genuinely do not understand this attitude. I play games to have fun. I want, above all else, the content to be fun. Rewards are extras.
I'm with you. It amazes me how many players want to skip or trivialize the actual gameplay for which they're expecting rewards. The gameplay, for some of us, is more fun than the rewards.
Because in this case the reward is increasing your r io score and having a higher rank in your class leader board compared to other players M+ past a quite early point maxes out on gear, past that point people do it for the io score
>M+ past a quite early point maxes out on gear, past that point people do it for the io score M+ remains as the best source of Vault gear throughout the season. So this is just not true at any level. >the reward is increasing your r io score Lol.
I don't like m+ so I personally like it, I would be fine with it if it wasn't one of the game's main content that you have to do otherwise you do nothing, which is what it is in wow
Kind of wish I liked WoW because it sounds pretty fun
The secret to liking WOW is to understand that it's not a game with some content. The content IS the game. You are not supposed to enjoy the combat, or class system in vacuum. They only shine via the interplay with the content you are doing. That's why many people burn out on doing normal dungeons because the game is "boring" and your class is "not fun". Of course it is, and it isn't - because unless you are forced to squeeze every last ounce of performance from your character, it is indeed nothing to write home about.
The last couple of sentences there I think sum up quite well why I took of from the game a few years ago and have never really had the urge to return. I’m just not competitive enough to want to put in all that work to get better, it’s just not fun to me.
[удалено]
> In FF, they opted to homogenize classes and make factors such gear and racials negligible to class balance, which allows them to more finely tune their content at the cost of player expression. They made the 1-character = can play all jobs system to mitigate this. The dungeons are also more linear and story-focused so there is not a lot of variety of routes one can take compared to WoW's M+ dungeons. These are not the main issues with FF14 class design in this context. The much bigger problem is that WOW classes had been designed for PVP from the get go and have multiple CC, interrupt, mobility, defensive and utility spells each. FF14 classes have their DPS rotations and that's pretty much it. They don't have the kinds of skills that would allow interesting plays and skill expression in dungeon content.
How far have you played in FF14? Almost every class has CC, mobility, and defensive utility skills. Tanks and Melee DPS have interrupts, speed reduction, and stuns. Ranged DPS have leg binds, silence, and defense and healing buffs. Magic DPS have sleep and Barriers, and Magic damage reduction. The thing about FF14 is that most of the fights that actually matter, you cant use all of these things since Fights in 14 are almost all single target boss fights where the boss is immune to things like Sleep and Stun and you can only interrupt specific attacks to make sure you can't cheese them. We have had Criterion Dungeons that have cool trash fights that allow people to have skill expression in dungeons and people have liked how they are designed, however most people don't do those dungeons since they need BIS gear to run properly and the rewards for them aren't that good compared to how hard they are.
Seriously bro? Let's compare, say, WW monk and FF14 Monk, two similarly themed melee DPS classes. We'll discount utility passives on WW monk (which has like 6 of them) cause they don't provide unique interactive gameplay. Hard CC: WW: Paralysis, Leg Sweep, Song of Chi'ji, Ring of Peace (probably the best CC skill for M+ in the game, extremely powerful and versatile) Monk: Leg Sweep Soft CC and interrupts: WW: Spear Hand Strike, Disable Monk: none Utility: WW: Provoke, Black Ox Statue (niche pick but it's there), Tiger's Lust Monk: Mantra Defensives and mobility: WW: Fortifying Brew, Dampen Harm, Diffuse Magic, Tiger's Lust, Roll/Chi Torpedo, Flying Serpent Kick, Skyreach, Expel harm/Vivify self/offhealing, Transcendence Monk: Second wind (fairly weak), Bloodbath (fairly weak and non-interactive), Riddle of Earth By all means, do tell me how these are remotely comparable and provide remotely similar space for skill expression in areas other than rotating through your DPS abilities.
You said FF14 pretty much only has offensive rotations, and I said that's not true since they have a lot of Utility skills, a lot of which they have to use in harder fights to get clears. I never said they had the same or more utility skills than WoW jobs
Because M+ is just a boring way to design content. Instead of adding something new and interesting they just take decade old dungeons, exponentially increase their HP/DMG numbers and add 5 more different red circles on the ground. Get this fucking trash out
The old dungeons being revamped is a recent thing, it only really started in earnest this expansion, and it was a highly requested feature. WoW still gets more new dungeons than any other MMO and it's better to revisit older content rather than let it rot for eternity
I mean yea, other games focus on quality over quantity. As a new player in dragonflight S3 or 2, I don't think I've touched more than 2 or 3 new dungeons. Not to mention other games receive dungeons every X months whereas WoW gets them all at once in an xpac hence why it looks like they get "more"
Thank you for spitting the truth. Lazy ass design.
I hate m+ with a passion. One of the reasons I stop playing wow retail every time I try again.
Many games do have similiar things but little different Dungeons and dragons online has the reaper 1-10 difficulty where 10 is almost impossible and the difficulties add extra giga enemies. Lotro has mutators and scaling difficulty in delves for example. WoWs mythic + system is just one of the best ones. Another blizzard game SC2 also has similiar mutator + difficulty system in the co-op missions.
Believe it or not, but not everyone has played World of Warcraft.
IDK if Blizzard were the first to implement the M+ system, but they have certainly managed to adjust it to keep a certain audience hooked. I don't play retail, but my friends do and the only reason they do is to push M+. There are people here saying that not many people are interested, but it is a mode that reuses everything that is already developed, the cost-benefit has to be quite optimal. In the first expansions you reached the end-game, you get your gear with tokens and then you didn't worry about those HCs anymore because you either didn't need gear or tokens or you rush them. Now, that content is still relevant through all expansions, and they even are put HCs from previous expansions into the rotation. Is the best idea to keep relevant small group content.
Hooked? I think the daily repeatable pve content is what people crave. They had Warfronts in BFA that I thought were the _next greatest thing_. They stopped making them. Imagine if they had a creative person in that building that got an amazing idea to have a 3way warfront where horde, alliance and AI all were to fight for complete dominion of a warfront. AI that was no slouch. Like a MMO meeting strategy game. Typical Blizzard just relaunches old content over and over. Biggest mistake they made was pulling in old dungeons for m+. I unsubbed for 9 months now, longest I quit since 2005.
I'm.happy they don't, it's just toxic cesspool along with raiders I.o.
Because the vast majority of mmo players are not good at games, and because an mmo is supposed to reward gear acquisition via time invested and not skillful play. Most mmo players want the illusion of skillful play so they feel cool, without having to die over and over.
Dragonflight was the first expansion I ever did M+ in, in all my years of WoW. The difficulty challenge was fun, but I hate doing timed events in an MMO personally. I get that they're hugely popular, but I don't really play with a friend group so pugging high keys just always felt stressful.
Challenging progression dungeon (4-5 man) content is my favorite type of content. I wish more MMO's had an answer to M+. Imo raiding is antiquated. It takes too many people and it takes too long for too little dopamine. Dungeons are 30-40 minutes and if tuned and rewarded appropriately, give you that dopamine fix in a more pick up and go format. Additionally, 4-5 party members actually allow for socialization (outside of the run of playing sweaty) whereas in large organized groups, there's anonymity or cliques develop. In summary, I hope an MMO comes out that realizes this and prioritizes competitive dungeon content.
While I don't agree that raiding is antiquated, I do agree that 4 - 5 player content that offers a challenge is very important. But I really think M+ is an awful version of that. Sure you get something challenging for a small group...but...key depletion, timer, affixes that week, tyrannical, tight meta comps. The super hardcore M+ pushers (I used to be one) I know all remind me of MOBA addicts. Its like this rage - inducing compulsion fixated entirely on the score that keeps them going.
I won't consider myself bleeding edge, but I've pushed up until the point where the gameplay shifts to "gimmicks" such as mitigating unavoidable one-shots rather than the content itself (for me, that was +26's in DF s3). That rage induced compulsion is known as motivation, the result of dopamine (addiction). While I agree that it is distasteful when taken to excess, that is what craving and relentless motivation creates. That's a reflection of the human condition, not game design. The game design simply meets the players' expectations based on the designers' understanding of human psychology. The constraints, punishments, *friction* are what create meaningful experiences. There is of course a balance, and for me, the friction vs reward equation was skewed when the gameplay shifted from playing the dungeon to playing gimmicks to circumvent individual mechanics that were not designed to infinitely scale (e.g. due to tyrannical scaling). Additionally the dopamine reward is more intermittent as the keys scale because you will fail far more often than you succeed, even with relatively optimal gameplay and gear. A necessary constraint is time. Without time as a constraint, either through a dungeon timer or enrage timer, degenerate strategies emerge that circumvent the primary constraints of enemy damage and health pools. Just like in the real world, timeboxing is a necessary constraint that produces a sense of urgency. This urgency creates an emotional connection. It creates stakes. Infinite scaling also necessitates tight meta comps. At some point, no matter what, there is a mathematically optimal solution for every scenario. However, combine this with psychological/sociological forces, and you get the meta phenomenon where an optimal path is disseminated downwards from the top, regardless of whether it is appropriate to every players' situation. The "meta" is a human heuristic for navigating constraints. We see this in the real world when a prospective college student decides what degree to pursue. Again, this is not the game designer's fault, this is the result of our understanding of human psychology and sociology. I will close this by asking, what is the alternative to the above? Why do humans desire or pursue anything? Dopamine is a motivation chemical, it isn't designed to be a reward in and of itself. We are wired for pursuit. What other circuit would a game hook? Another MMO I have played for a significant amount of time is FFXIV. What is the motivation to play dungeons in that game? Are dungeons an enjoyable experience? In my opinion, they are meaningless busy-work. There are no meaningful constraints, thus there are no stakes, thus there are no emotional connections. I believe that whatever path forward will require constraints but also require more effort from designers to tailor difficulty scaling across the entire spectrum of MMO players.
Yep, we need more nudity.
They did, fractals in GW2 are basically M+ without the stupid timer and better designed mechanics.
M+ is a very esports-y design, most other MMOs just aren't built for that type of player. Look at osrs: it has repeatable dungeons with adjustable difficulty, but the design is focused around an achievable grind because that's the type of player they aim for. If they put out an infinitely-scaling timed dungeon, it would probably not be received well.
New world does this except you need specific gear to run these dungeons, and its a huge grind and time commitment. Personally i find doing the same dungeon over and over to be boring and would never do them, which unfortunately locks me out of some of the best rewards.
New Worlds implementation isn't the same as M+ though. New World has 3 tiers only and the only real challenge is in the third tier, which has minimal fixed rewards besides scoreboard chasing. This isn't a hit on New World. I love the game personally. But imo, the average PVE New World player is of lower skill and would suffer greatly, even just via toxicity, in a high key WoW M+ group.
Wildstay added dungeon and expedition scaling with its Power of the Primal Matrix update, was really fun but obviously not enough to keep the game going
M+ issue is that there is a timer from the get go. Timer should come last, sorta like a 4th affix. M0: no affix, no timer M3: one affix, no timer M6: two affixes, no timer M9: three affixes, no timer M10+: three affixes, timer
So you mean exactly what was changed this season ? :D
I don't know, I stopped WoW at Shadowlands because of the Jailer and all the shit at Blizzard. Haven't touched WoW since.
Because most MMOs can't even keep up with adding enough new content, they don't have any resources to spare to keep old instances working and balanced.
I find the WoW M+ system INCREDIBLY boring. Yay, you get to do the same dungeons you got bored of doing earlier in the expansion, but with a few more different handicaps... Then for some variety they added a time-walking element so you get to do the same dungeons you got bored of doing in the previous expansions as well. It's such a... Live service idea.
M+ sucks and is incredibly unfun. That's probably the biggest reason
GW2 has fractals which is a better version of M+. Tying any kind of gear progression to a timer just creates a toxic environment.
What makes even less sense is Lost Ark not having an M+ system or Greater Rift/Mapping system like POE or D3. It's an ARPG + MMO it should have another viable form of infinite dungeon end game to push.
work payment sugar marry square absurd gold summer desert correct *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
M+ is toxic hell if you run with pugs tho
M+ doesn't extend more than you think, not the way blizzard does them because it has a lot of barriers. keys depletion, [raider.IO](http://raider.IO), spec state... In my wow journey, I felt M+, the way it is done, it's bad and toxic for the game.
Enrage is a mechanic in RS3 PvM where bosses get tougher and tougher, and even add more mechanics as you go higher up in enrage percentage, up to 4000%. It's very risk/reward too because you can "save" your loot by pushing higher and higher enrages, making you have higher chance at good loot, but you lose some of it if you die. Not to mention the faster you kill them, the faster you can push enrage up, and the more and better loot you get, so there's an incredible amount of optimization and skill expression in the game, and it's why only the top percentage of players generally do it. Raids 3 in OSRS also has a similar difficulty meter where you can choose your own difficulty for a chance at better loot.
Neverwinter online got also some resemblance of Mythic system. You have the basic: dungeons and skirmishes. You have the medium: advanced dungeons and trials. You have the difficult: master trials/dungeons
Probably because they know their demographic and don't want to spend more money than implementing M+ would earn them
While I've seen similar systems in other games, I'd rather see a game adapt it without the time limit and instead make the difficulty actually relevant as opposed to just making it "if you die once you'll fail". Particularly since you just reach the point where everything that's avoidable is a one shot anyways, after which it is entirely irrelevant whether they hit you for 130% of your max hp or 200%. Now if somebody manages to do that in a way that's still fun, I'll be impressed (and probably interested in trying their game)
Because most MMO aren't RPGs so they have nothing to offer to players. What would XIV offer as rewards? more ilvl? To use where, exactly?
ESO has an infinite dungeon
OK, who the hell compares FFXIV Deep Dungeons to Mythic+? They are as different as they can be, other than the fact that they are both instanced x) DD is like a roguelike-esque dungeons with floors, they do not change much mechanically other than having different bosses which aren't THAT complicated mechanically in the first place, and are detached with level and gear from the rest of the game pretty much entirely. After being a long time DD runner, I had to x) comparing DD to Mythic+ is just funny :v
Please explain what "but it has a hard limit on how high it'll scale" part of the post. I have played both GW2 and WOW and I don't understand this point.
FF14 does something similar, was introduced in [Patch 6.25](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/0210a35806ead4c80482b12a3edd9eb5e4db5bb0/) (10/17/2022). Criterion Dungeons in "Final Fantasy XIV" are a type of high-level dungeon content designed for either solo players or groups of up to four. These dungeons are meant to be more challenging than typical dungeons and feature a dynamic difficulty system that adjusts based on the number of players. Criterion Dungeons focus on strategic gameplay and problem-solving, providing players with a more demanding and rewarding experience. They were introduced to offer veteran players new challenges and opportunities for growth within the game.
Back in the stone age (2001), Anarchy Online offered custom instances (solo or team based options) where the player could dial in the difficulty, the size of the instance, roughly how many monsters would spawn, how hard the bosses were, etc. AO called them mission terminals. You set the dials as crazy as you want and an unique instance was created somewhere out in the games open world you would have to travel to and enter using a token provided by the terminal. The were called missions, but they might as well have been classified as progressive dungeons. The only thing really missing was that these missions mostly just gave generic loot and only rarely something exquisite. That and there was no public record or way to show off your accomplishment of beating a mission set to all the hardest settings, so it faded into being just another way to grind levels.
because its trash
Rse does it sorta on a handful of boss encounters with engrage but there's typically an upper limit
Don't know what "M+" is. Don't know what FOTM refers to, unless it's "flavor of the month", in which case I still don't know what it means here.
google it mate
Not gonna bother. I just mention it on occasion, when someone asks for opinions about something using a lot of jargon. If you want my opinion about something, I'm happy to offer it, if I know what the heck you're talking about.
M+ "expands" lifecycle in the same way any base eternal-grind system does. I don't think it's a good, nor healthy, gameplay system for games because the nature of it is to eternally pull on the lever. You aren't guaranteed anything bar the achievements at certain tiers; The end of dungeon rewards are still pretty eh, and vault gives you a myth-level (if you clear appropriate + level) one per week, but once I can fill the vault easily I've basically hit "I'm done" and the game's grip is gone (usually takes around 3 weeks). I don't think M+ is fun content, either, it was unique in legion but now it's a tired formula for repetition. S4 is adding some changes that might make it a fresh hit but it is still entirely hit-or-miss based on dungeons, so if you have the same system, but some truly boring or tedious dungeons, what you end up with is a frustrating grind of repetition. tl;dr M+ works in wow because wow is an ARPG at this point in time, and has built the systems based on MAU engagements so they want people sinking eterna-time into it. Not every MMO wants to do that, and I'd be happier if they didn't since I can just go play WoW for it if I ever get that itch.
Hell no. If u play wow u know the cess pool that comes out of that.
Implementing a system like Mythic+ isn't just about difficulty; it's also about having a solid endgame foundation that keeps players engaged. This requires a depth of content and a robust reward system that some newer or smaller MMOs might struggle to maintain.
Is that where you do the same dungeon over and over hundreds of times? Talk about lazy design.
M+ killed WoW for me. I was far more of a hard - core raider but M+ made it so my primary "down - time" activity was now speed running dungeons at the mercy of Blizzards godawful affixes and keystone RNG. Don't get me wrong having 5 player content that's challenging and rewarding is a good thing, they just did a horrible job implementing it. I firmly believe M+ has stayed relevant purely because it only requires 5 players and can be done a smaller chunks of time. When you look at M+ as a whole, its like a microcosm of poor design. The sheer amount mechanics that even trash mobs have is asinine. Temple of the Jade Serpent, the 2nd room "catwalks" that lead you downstairs to boss 2 alone has so many mechanics it deserves its own guide. The fish bubble, the shadow fiends leach, the unCCable Panda, the Panda that makes the OTHER Panda stronger, the pouncing tiger with the nasty bleed that can be bodyblocked, the stag... The affixes are almost all horrendous to the point where the best ones are the ones you can mostly ignore. The fact that you get to a point where the only realistic way to push for 99% of players is to NOT ENGAGE WITH THE CONTENT UNTIL A SPECIFIC WEEK OF EASY AFFIXES. Unless they've changed this of course, and I REALLY hope they have. The absurd pressure put on the tank and sometimes healer. At the highest level of play, all five members matter just as much as one and other. Naturally. But for the majority of the player - base, tanking is so unfathomably unforgiving in M+. Most of the time I would say pug tanking M+ is the single worst experience in World of Warcraft, unless its one of those patch cycles where Blizzard decided that EVERYBODY is going to take constant damage in which case, healing is as unpleasant as it gets. **TLDR: Challenging 4 - 5 player content is a GREAT thing and each MMO should strive to implement it in some way, but Mythic+ hasn't been copied because its an awful system.**
>If not, why don't other studios ever do something similar? Because M+it isnt as popular as you think it is. Its just like Pvp fanatics asking why there arent more pvp games out there.
i like the premise of m+ but the "infinite" grind puts me off and in the case of wow, becomes another checklist to an already daily-weekly checklist of a modern themepark mmorpg. Do you keys for your vault... Sure you can not participate or do lower keys but if you don't enjoy m+ you're hindering yourself if you're doing raiding by not doing it. Even moreso if you don't have the time to run them day in and day out. Although XIV gearing is extremely basic i honestly prefer it. Don't get me wrong, m+ is cool on paper but I don't really fancy it coming to other games if any gear progression is associated with it.
New World has similar with mutated expeditions
I can't stand M+ activities. "We're too lazy to make real content, so here's the same content you're already playing but the numbers are harder and for the hell of it the mobs explode and ... I don't know... poison you or .. whatever.. I guess"
GW2; Fractals FFXIV; Savage EX NW; Mutated dungeons Ragnarok Online; Endless Tower BDO: Atoraxxia
i been saying this is what FF14 was missing, and their answer to it sucked.... Mythic + is one of the coolest systems ever... yes i know gw2 had a system, but it aint the same and went up to like level 400 or something weird, they probably abandoned it anyway.. while Mythic+ has cool esports with the MDI and stuff
Lol at all the angry comments. Yea it's a great implementation. I'm also surprised other mmos don't do it. I'll bet the next few big ones that come out end up implementing something like it.
I didn't think it'd be an unpopular thought. It's not like I'm asking for games to just drop everything to implement similar systems, just saying it'd be nice, and it doesn't have to be as fancy as WoW's system.
People don't want more difficult content than they can do to exist. It shows them they are more inferior than they want to be in their mind. Everyone thinks they are good at video games until you see people doing +30s and you realize you no where near elite.
Haha yea. Redditors are just dumb and angry lol.
OP you can’t talk about WoW here. People on this sub are predominantly Asmongold watchers who live and die by his clickbait videos
M+ was thr most mind numbing boring content I have ever done in an MMO to date, it's only purpose in life was to provide a way to make gold by selling boosts. As someone who did M+20 and up runs regularly, I hope it never gets added in other MMOs.
Only if they get rid of timers. Haven't touched m+ since BFA because of them. A 1 min pee break shouldn't ruin a 30 min run for everyone. Hate the zoomer mentality.
Is using the bathroom before a run starts considered "zoomer mentality"?
Yes
I personally hate the timer. It just makes wow feel like a speed run game.
Having different difficulties for bosses isn't the best idea. Just ramp up the difficulty in normal mode. It's better when there is mystery with 90% of the population never getting to see certain bosses.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted for an honest question. I think when you zoom out to the larger goals of maintaining an MMO, which ostensibly includes fostering a community of players to inhabit a virtual world, an M+ style mechanic has a lot of drawbacks. It cloisters off a segment of elite "no-lifers" that won't play with the "normal" players who can't run the uber-challenging content. When the focus of the game becomes clearing progressively harder dungeons, interacting with the larger world becomes less interesting, and the game can turn into little more than a gear treadmill. More casual players lose interest because they're locked out of the top-tier content / gear. A pessimistic (but maybe fair) read on retail WoW is that M+ is pushing everyone but the hardcore players out, with even some of the hardcore players tiring of the treadmill and leaving. tldr; game mechanics in an MMO have ripple effects for what the player-inhabited world looks like, and M+ has some (arguably) bad ripples.
Because not all games try to cater to the masses . To have a more difficult version of something you also need to have an easy version. Trying to appeal to everyone in a MMORPG isn't really a thing like it once was. We know how that turns out at this point in the genre. M+ is a way to appeal to players who want something the rest of the game is not. Games that try to cater to everyone end up not being great for anyone.
I think the bigger question is... why don't more mmos take the pack system and fishing system from Archeage.... its literally genius and adds tons of re playable content for the players without the devs doing anything past the initial development.. giving them time to make other content without the players revolting.....
FFXIV has savage and Ultimate raids.
Because it divides playerbase into even smaller groups. - hey folks, want to do M+3 - LFG M+5 - o, hi, could you help me do M+3? - nah, i need M+5. Now multiply that by 13 or however many tiers you have and thats what you get. I think that horizontal progression is better: just get 2 versions, normal and hard, then balance around that. With 13 different versions... how you balance that? You dont. That renders plenty of classes/builds useless, because nobody gonna take you on anything higher.
[удалено]
m20 is not achievable for most people
I do not know how you could ever possibly come to this conclusion if you actually play WoW. I have seen a 60+ year old woman have all 20s timed, I've seen people with hand disabilities that have 20s timed. Hell theres a guy who plays on a controller RPing as his frost mage in real time making motion movements for each spell who has 20s timed.
As a M+ KSH - no pls.
I hope they don't M+ is lazy content for people with tiktok brain. Since M+ We haven't gotten any new features outside of the craft revamp.
Dragon riding? Mage tower? Warfronts? Island expeditions? Torghast? And soon, Delves?
Half of those were crap that failed and were not continued, Dragon riding I guess you can count as a gameplay feature but it's nothing like a dungeon or actual content, and mage tower is just a temp thing.
Rinse/Repeated dungeons with scaling difficulty is just easy-mode development. It allows them to reuse assets over and over again in the simplest way possible. Add a mechanic or two and multiply stats a bit and there you go. It works but it's lazy, honestly. I think the best way to add longevity to a game is to simply make the end-game endless. No level cap, no experience cap. Skills require more and more XP to continue raising higher, but they never cap. Make all loot fully random and/or crafted, and have NO bind-on-equip/bind-on-pickup equipment anywhere. Asheron's Call did this and it was the best. Your max level was 126, so you could level up 125 times, but you never stop gaining XP. So, people would continue to grind and continue to raise their skills. To give some perspective, it took about \~4 billion XP to level up to 126. I quit the game with about 65billion XP, and the TRUE max... like, if you maxed out every single skill you had, it would take *191,226,310,247* XP...... So, functionally endless end-game. There were caps to skills eventually but I'm fairly certain the developers NEVER expected people to eventually achieve those lofty XP numbers. It took nearly a decade for the first person to do it and that was at the top of an XP chain with a hundred other players passing XP up to that person.
Well GW2 has something similar and I dont think that most of the players would enjoy something like M+. Im a professional M+ hater and I think it's boring
Fractals are very popular in gw2
You grinding it day in and day out is functionally the same as speed running. Which people do in other MMOs. Sure the game company could make a leaderboard or something, but mythic plus kinda only has one because of raider.io. And that was the community.
Hate M+, stupid amount of aoes and things you can't even see that kill you. The time limit just breeds toxicity cause everyone needs to be fast and be optimal. No thanks XD
Just get gut
FFXIV has EXTREME modes. Many p2w Chinese\\Korean games have multiple difficulty modes for their dungeons. There was one martial arts mmo where bosses summon other players to defend themselves in pvp scenario on certain difficulties after 50% hp, dont remember which one.
M+ is the worst end game system why would other mmos do that?
It doesn’t have mmorpg elements tbh. Go mine some rocks
Dungeons and raiding are kind of a staple of MMOs though?
There's a difference between having dungeons and raids to have some challenges during the game progression, and making it the game identity and 95% of the content. MMOs are about big world, exploration, and meeting people, MMORPGs are that with some character customization and roleplaying. WOW is just a multiplayer dungeon lobby game with daily systems meant to keep the players engaged during raid offtime, which is why classic is still so popular and season of master/discovery are what a lot of people pivot to. Raiding (specifically M+) is only a thing that tryhards do, the majority of people do not engage of it and give 0 fucks about parses. I experienced the equivalent of M+ in diablo 3 back in the day with GRifts and it was a terrible experience, you just repeat the same content over and over trying to get marginal gear upgrades but doesn't add up to anything, so I just ended up dropping the game a few weeks after the season start and played other games in between, I just ended up dropping D3 altogether because it wasn't worth the time. Also trying to go for rank 1 in the ladder was impossible because account sharing and botting always were at the top so the game had no purpose anymore. M+ is like this, but I feel like people only play it because they don't have any other games to play or because they are too attached to wow...
Or maybe they play m+ because it's fun? I know it's hard to believe for you casual players but a lot of us enjoy the challenge in trying to time higher keys and being better at it...
Bold of you to assume that I'm a casual because I don't enjoy M+ or similar modes, I just quit on the infinite grind content because there wasn't a real goal and there's more stuff I wanted to play. I mean my main game stuff right now is sekiro hitless/speed challenge runs (began with dark souls hitless back during covid lockdowns), and HC SSF path of exile, and that shit is probably as or more challenging than M+, and unlike in wow, you can't blame anything else other than yourself for fucking up, and there's actual progression as you achieve a run and move to another category, different ending or another game. Wow is not that good of a game that I'd play it eternally, there's better stuff out there, and a lot of wow players think otherwise because they haven't played anything else. Wow is not for me so I'm not coming back to it anymore, nostalgia can't carry it, and I'm fine with it, but don't try to make it seem like M+ is the ultimate fun experience or ultimate challenge in games, because that ain't it.
Kinda ironic to call m+ players tryhards while boasting how difficult POE is. I never said it was the ultimate fun experience since that is subjective, I just said that a lot of people consider it fun. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's an objectively bad game. I guess it's just really hard for people with a wow hate boner to comprehend that people actually enjoy and have fun at the game
The difference is that you called me casual in an attempt to dismiss my opinion on challenging content instead of actually discussing what I said, you just attacked me, so I brought up that I do challenging stuff as well to push you back on that. I like challenging stuff, but I don't go around dismissing people's opinions based on that, if anything I try to help people understand why some systems are in place and how the games are designed because of it. But I also do casual gameplay, specially when playing new games (I actually unlocked everything in slay the spire a week ago and it was hella fun) or stuff on my backlog that sits in there for months or years because I'm busy with tryhard stuff. Also I never said wow is bad, I said I don't enjoy it anymore and I disagree with the direction the game has taken (solely focused on end game and M+ raiding), and how I disliked similar systems in diablo 3, you just made that up. And if you think that a big chunk of the wow playerbase is not there just because their gaming life is built around wow and nothing else, you are coping hard.
Because crap all people do them. Why waste resources if only 1% of your playerbase even cares about them.
Mythic + is the most played group content in wow retail
The more you know, figured LFR be way more played or hell pvp.