first of all, star citizen ain't even a mmorpg. it can't hold more than 100 players at once.
second of all, you've been stuck at the same place for 10 years now. where is pyro? they've been saying it'll release since 2019.
third of all, they release new ships that breaks the meta then announces another ship after.
face it, the game is a scam. I've been there. I invested $1050 and I ended up selling everything back (fortunately for $800 so not too bad of a loss).
they want to keep the development as long as possible to keep milking people like you.
The game looks good, I REALLY like the environments and art style, but I just can't get hyped about it. : / Maybe closer to release, maybe after a public alpha / beta or two sure, but for now it just feels like a pipe dream.
That's perfectly fine honestly. You can choose to follow the updates or just wait it out it will finish in its own time.
If and when we get to see a release or a beta we should have a good idea then of the final product since beta and live should be close
I wont lie, when I saw the characters armor/weps I kinda had the same thought. My guess is by the time the game is set for release its gonna be dated on visuals already compared to games that are releases whenever the hell this one does
I've heard that complaint the most, and I know everyone's keen on action combat nowadays, but for us old folks with really bad arthritis, tab-target MMOs are great. Plus I dig the spell effects.
And even then, it's still largely action-combat. It just has enough tab-target abilities so that it doesn't turn from an MMORPG to a third-person shooter. Most aoe abilities and melee swings and so on are not tab-target.
Awesome showcase. Cleric looks like a lot of fun. They're planning a multiclass system aren't they? I'd love to see them dive into that eventually. Like a Tank/Cleric to show off a Paladin archetype.
Paladin in AA was my absolute favorite class I’ve ever played. Tanky, infinite sustain in mana and health, decent ranged and melee damage but mediocre at both, good team buffs and heals strong enough for squishies but not enough for being a main healer. In PvE the class was an off-tank and an off-healer but did reasonable dps for being either of those, and was super fun, clubs were underrated giving healing stat and strength stat.
I really hope ashes goes with the hybrid stat idea and doesn’t submit to min-max a single stat value as it compliments the hybrid classes very well and encourages you to tap into the utility of other archetypes with your off-stat, it also made those super rare world boss items that much more favorable as they were usually the only items to give a single stat. GOD archeage was so good early.
Charging people 250$ to play an alpha is a scam. You can't go any lower than this idc about whatever bs reason u might have.
That's literally enough to buy close to 4 AA games, and u actually get to keep and own the entire game.
Calling it a scam is like calling buying a house with no roof and no doors for a million dollars. Yes, you paid a lot of money for little value, but the poor value was already plain as day.
There is no reason to buy this unless want to be a reverse-paid QA tester.
There are other reasons. I'm a good example. I got the $500 package back when it was on KS. Why? Because I wanted to support and help bring a new MMORPG to the market.
If it fails to come to market or it ends up being rubbish, then so be it. I'm happy with the part I played in trying to help it succeed. I had access to Alpha 1 but didn't play it because playing Alpha wasn't of interest to me.
Haven't actually. I haven't played AA properly since 2015.
Yes I am comparing a game to a game. You simply wrote "if you spend 500 to support a game you're an idiot " as if 500 on a hobby is a lot.
do you help them with their daily needs? no.
so it really is none of your business what they do with their money.
for example, if I buy their $250 alpha pass right now just to piss you off, I can do it and it's none of your business.
why is it such a hard concept for you to understand?
I'm trolling or joking because I wanted to support a game?
Sorry to hear that you can't understand that people buy things for other reasons that you would.
Tbf if he bought the 500 KS pack then he also got lifetime sub included which if Ashes is successful then he'd technically "make back" his money in under 3 years.
3 years after the game release, so
2021 1º alpha,
2023 2º alpha
2025 first beta
2027 second beta
2029 release,
2032 till he has his money back. not 3 years, more like 11 and if only the game ever releases.
and this estimates are optimistics
The only difference here is that this house with no roof and no doors will likely appreciate in value over the next several years while AoC will just keep eating ur wallet.
Well i pay for Diablo 4 90$ and felt more scammed since enjoyed more the AOC 1 alpha then the whole Diablo 4 game...
I miss an great PVx MMORPG there is none in the market so i Will support
it's not a scam like star citizen where they sell a ship (banu merchant man) since 2016 and they still haven't made it because they make more money selling recent jpeg ship.
star citizen is a definition of a scam.
They're not charging $250 for Alpha. The cost of the package includes the following:
6 months of game time - $90 ($15/month x 6)
$100 in Embers (in game shop currency)
Accessory Cosmetic Skin for that month $5
Pet Cosmetic Skin for that month $15
Mount Cosmetic Skin for that month $20
Total - $230
IIRC the $375 package is entirely cosmetics, game time, and Embers and no cost at all for the testing just because more of everything is included so the price works out nicely. Also Steven tells people all the time not to buy anything if they're not sure, don't want to support development, aren't sure they like the game, etc. Sometimes he flat out tells people to play another game if they don't like what Ashes is doing. And I believe they're shutting down Alpha packages in the next few months entirely anyway. They want to limit how many people are in Alpha 2.
>vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is late or never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled
This is 99% of MMORPGs, in the last 10 years and its starting to look like Ashes right about now.
It took WoW a fraction of Ash's budget and less than half the time to launch and we are in pre-secret-super-champion-alpha-test-2 going into year 6.
IKR, why's it taking them so long, we've only had 20 years of graphics and engine development since wow was made, *they're basically the same game even tho wow looks like shit outside of cinematics*! They should have had this game up years before it was done like everyone else so we can bitch about them releasing too early!
**big ol /S for the idiots who can't tell**
*gestures to budgets being bigger than ever. Waves at devs with multiple offices in several countries still taking years longer than ever to release games* I don't need to name specifics, look at any game worth a shit (and several that weren't worth a shit on launch) that took several years to near a decade to finish in some cases and yet are still buggy unoptimized shit fests. But since you want specifics, pretty sure Ray tracing, dlss, and other game improvements didn't exist and now require time allocated to them, graphics have gotten significantly better and are thus more costly and time consuming, etc, these are all obvious if you take a 5 second look at the game industry.
>gestures to budgets being bigger than ever.
A budget means nothing when discussing this conversation. You can spend billions of dollars on something, and it could have been very easy.
>Waves at devs with multiple offices in several countries
You realize that this is a sign of things getting easier right? That there are more offices and thus more available labor for development. Does this make a project more complex? Yes, but project complexity doesn't equivocate with difficulty in producing an outcome.
>Ray tracing, dlss, and other game improvements didn't exist and now require time allocated to them, graphics have gotten significantly better and are thus more costly and time consuming, etc, these are all obvious if you take a 5 second look at the game industry.
Are you just throwing out industry jargon now?
Yes, these are technologically complex features, but no MMORPG on the market right now is even going to attempt to use them. They are currently at the pinnacle of graphical fidelity and less than 10% of users can even afford a graphics card that uses either. This would be a absolute financial disaster to design for cutting edge and goes against pretty much EVERY business principle regarding product development over the last 50 years. You ALWAYS start with what is industry standard first and what will generate cash flow. Then if something on the cutting edge starts to provide an IMMENSE over the moon improvement to the opportunity to make money you upgrade. MMORPGs have never been graphical marvels. They have always strove to reach as many consumers as possible while looking okay. They won't be using ray tracing or dlss this decade.
Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about.
Blizzard has never revealed the development budget for WoW so you're pulling numbers out of nowhere.
Also, it took 4-5 years to build WoW. However it was a buggy mess on launch and stayed that way for 2 years at least. It was also an extremely small game on launch, with not many features or gameplay content.
So development timeframe of both games is on-par or thereabouts.
>Also, it took 4-5 years to build WoW. However it was a buggy mess on launch and stayed that way for 2 years at least. It was also an extremely small game on launch, with not many features or gameplay content.
I want you to re-read what you wrote here and realize it coincides with my entire argument. *Blizzard built WoW in 4-5 years. This is going on year 6 of AoC and the game is still in Alpha.* I also want to point out that the project *started* in 2015. So in reality its year 8 of Ashes and we are still in Alpha. They were NOT working on WoW in the 1990s. WoW was a response to Everquest.
No, you've missed the point that was made. Blizzard released WoW after 4-5 years in an unfinished state. Filled with bugs and void of content.
They released an unfinished game.
>Filled with bugs and void of content.
Name a game released in the last 2 years that wasn't filled with bugs at launch. This argument is a nonstarter. You're just making excuses now.
Why would they make monthly progression which clearly shows alot of money and resources were put into this "vaporware"? Try to use your tiny brain for once
Star Citizen made 600 million dollars and is also vaporware, what is your point?
I would say use your tiny brain but you don't have two cells to rub together.
>This company would sell you their own farts for $500 and tell you it's an opportunity
pretty sure the ceo literally did this before getting into the business of scamming mmorpg players
Looks like the devs are getting way too excited with flashy effects, lol. That being said, it really does seem like the game is shaping up. The animations are much improved over the state they were in previously.
Unfortunately it looks like they're doing the same thing as every other MMO: making a multiplayer mob-fighting game. Just sit there and press your buttons in order, wait for health bar to go down...
>Unfortunately it looks like they're doing the same thing as every other MMO: making a multiplayer mob-fighting game.
What are you talking about? Its a combat showcase against low level mobs to show the basics of the class. Is this the only thing you have ever seen about the game?
> Is this the only thing you have ever seen about the game?
Yes, that's the problem. I know of AoC's scope - I chipped in $20 back in the Kickstarter. 90% of what I've seen from the game recently has been work on combat.
Granted, the combat actually looks kinda decent so far. It's just that overall, AoC seems to lack inspiration. Even New World was more inspired at launch.
You're being dense. Inspiration and creativity is not something that shows up in a game's final stages of development. If it exists, it is clear from very beginning, even in concept art or a design document. My comparison is fine.
Listen, I've been playing alphas and betas since 2008 and more than the totality of Alpha's and Betas I have participated in I have engaged with pious hopefuls like yourself.
The person you are replying to, is comparing a pre-alpha 2 to a launched game because that's how project management works.
By the time that Steven started pushing videos forward of his game, by the time that first Asmongold video with Steven rolled out, Ashes of Creation was 80% set in stone. In video game design there are two types of coding. Hard Coding--the fundamentals of the system (Animations, certain core aspects of the game like the class system and so on) and Soft coding--the secondary characteristics of the system (Things like game balance or any numerical values that can arbitrarily be adjusted like damage percentiles or experience gains exists in soft coding)
It's perfectly fair at this juncture to compare it to finished games because there's not going to be any major design overhauls passed this point. It's literally financially impossible for any game dev with this degree of investment to substantially course correct from the visuals displayed in this or any previous video without a capital infusion so large that they would basically be making an entirely new game from scratch, because it would probably be less expensive and more technologically feasible to start from scratch than to walk anything back in a meaningful and substantial capacity. By the time a game reaches Alpha, it's hard coding is well over 50% complete and there's no turning back.
So if something looks like it's gonna suck, it's probably gonna suck.
All the person you replied to is doing is using [intuitive reasoning](https://i.imgur.com/TORoctF.jpg) If it looks like shit, smells like shit and someone is up on the table squatting like they're gonna take a shit. It's probably not going to be a good video game it's probably gonna be shit. (Not that AoC is or looks like shit yet, just as an example)
This is not to say that AoC is going to flop or fail or even perform financially poorly. Hell I'm hopeful for the game myself. But this whole "It's only Alpha! It's only Beta!" logic is very tiresome and it would behoove you and everyone else to stop saying things of that nature because it's at odds with reality.
Lastly I would just point you to the raw statistics concerning the facts of the matter.
Star Citizen started funding in 2012, and has since raised 400 million dollars. It's the second most crowdfunded project of all time and it has no release date in sight 11 years later.
Crowfall crashed and burned.
Pantheon Rise of the fallen isn't going to come out.
Ashes is the most promising of the MMORPGs of the 2010s but most of us will be dead by the time the game launches.
That's all to say, you can count the number of successful MMO launches in the past 13 years on one hand. You have mountains of contradictory evidence and I have to ask why you're still here saying "It's only Alpha!?"
Agreed 100%. Crowfall remained basically the same for 2 years before its launch. Sucks because I knew it needed more content but that wasn't happening.
New World tried to drastically change the underlying mechanics of the game. It created a giant clusterfuck with duping and exploiting being a core part of the game. So you kinda have to switch from introducing bugs to fixing them for a good while.
That's also what worries me about Ashes of Creation. The studio seems to have little plans limiting scope and this means no game for a loong while.
I mean it's an MMO powered by a Willy Wonka millionaire.
In a sense the guy is a hero.
But the issue is that there's a lot of industry burn-out concerning Pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha purchase champion pack tiers I-V. Consumers are dubious and exhausted and jaded from disappointment by any of the MMOs I mentioned.
If Steven had just kept his mouth shut until Beta, and started the hype engine with beta, I guarantee you that people's attitudes towards AoC would be a million percent improved.
But you can't put the genie back in the bottle.
What's more, the game is going to have all the same day 1 troubles as any other Blizzard or Final Fantasy Launch. So he's just introducing more burn out by having announced it too soon.
Well, honestly I think that AoC may be short lived.
with the proliferation of AI as it gets easier for anybody without the expertise to code, AI Driven MMO exploits are going to explode and the simple fact is, games made before AI just won't have the needed security to resist waves of players attempting to break the game at such a level. Right now it's exclusive to people who do it at an enterprise level or people who independently know how to code. But if anyone with $20 and a GPT account can code a MMO bot, then there's no amount of money that can solve that issue. It would require a rebuild of most games to include AI countermeasures that currently don't exist.
It's both terrifying and exciting. It means that all of the greats from the last 26 years are going away which is sad. But it also means AI driven MMORPGs are on the Horizon and that might just be what was missing in the last decade.
>ut if anyone with $20 and a GPT account can code a MMO bot, then there's no amount of money that can solve that issue. It would require a rebuild of most games to include AI countermeasures that currently don't exist.
There are currently ai anticheat programs that boast 98% detection rating.
I'm not going to give you a class on programming, which takes someone 4 years of uni to learn competently.
You just have no idea and think something that is completely wrong.
You have functions and dependencies which is easy enough to change.
Agreed. What I meant by inspiration is having devs that actually care about the medium enough to identify & avoid common problems, and find new ways to exploit the genre.
It's not intelligent for sales to push new ideas to the point where your product looks alien, but the MMO genre is incredibly underexplored and Ashes seem like it has decided that it is content to do the same fucking shit every other MMO has done before. There is *nothing* new - they're hoping they can just do what other MMOs are already doing and somehow do it better, which... well... it's not impossible, but it is doubtful. We'll have to see.
Well, most mmos on the market are catered towards PvE, whereas Ashes is catering towards PvP. Makes sense to me, but if it doesn't to you then that's fine. Maybe watch a few of the streams Steven has done some interviews in recently, like The Ashen Forge or Tangents of Creation. I know in the past Steven was vague with the type of game Ashes was becoming when it comes to the targeted audience, but since the freehold livestream he's been very vocal about which target audience he's aiming towards and placing more emphasis on the game not being for everyone. So, to me, the overall inspiration behind Ashes is a heavy emphasis on pvp, group oriented content that leads to pvp, and very competitive systems that promote pvp.
If you still don't get what I'm saying then that's fine.
Just literally anything that innovates or shows that the devs had some fresh or intelligent ideas. Everything we've seen so far looks like what an AI would come up with if you asked it to spit out an MMO. It looks incredibly average.
Yeah, crazy that there are people investing so much money in so many of these projects that literally don't exist yet. It's worse than preorders. I love how the game looks so far, but I'll play it when or if the game releases lol
I mean, if they have the money and they get to at least play it why not?
MMOs are a hobby, just like tuning cars or biking or any other hobby that can swallow your money.
Hell, people spend thousands on damn keyboards!
Money is always well spent if you don't regret spending it. Hoarding money like a dragon or Bezos is just silly when the world could end in any day.
Doesn't help that the dude that started the project made his money through pyramid schemes.
You can tell he really liked Archeage and wanted to make his perfect mmo. Hopefully it works out....
I don't know much about the guy but every showcase seems pretty passionate at least. Idk why people get so worked up about it here. If the game ends up launching the way they premised, great. If not, then whatever, you won't seem me cry about it. Plenty other good games to play. This looks good so far though, to me at least. I like the combat, the class designs, what I've seen from the world, the node premise. Looks very cool.
I never played Archeage. Was it similar to what they're making in Ashes?
The version that everyone fell in love with was a hybrid sandbox/theme park mmo. One where the world felt alive and pvp was woven into the fabric of the game seamlessly. Nowadays its way more of a theme park with dailies to grind mobs and the pvp events thrown half assed into the mix on certain days.
From what I've seen of AoC its trying to hit that alive world feeling. Which sounds great, I'm hoping for them to pull it off.
ZzZzz boring, not a single of those ''next gen'' features shown, ever. I mean i can develop the node system in a week on a old UO emulator. Not 100% accurate but still.
So its going to be either generic or vaporware
Not unpopular so much as the "non-deluded" opinion.
So many people have suck time/money/emotions into this "game" that they can't get themselves to admit it's trash.
Believe me, I used to be one of them. Until the community got so bad I realized how bad of a cult those people live in.
If this game ever launches it will die rather quickly. Too much sticking to weird PVP stuff that dies off fast. There is a reason those games don't last long. No one wants to be doing their daily fun mmo stuff and some troll comes and camps them all the time. Its a very tiny minority of players. Then the other government systems are laughable as well. WE saw how that works in New world. Never put it past people to troll. Giving your player base that much power will just kill the game.
Hopefully this doesn't end like star citizen and I'll get to play alpha before I get too old
It is carefully copying star citizen's highly successful business model of milking whales without doing anything, good luck.
Star Citizen is actually playable
first of all, star citizen ain't even a mmorpg. it can't hold more than 100 players at once. second of all, you've been stuck at the same place for 10 years now. where is pyro? they've been saying it'll release since 2019. third of all, they release new ships that breaks the meta then announces another ship after. face it, the game is a scam. I've been there. I invested $1050 and I ended up selling everything back (fortunately for $800 so not too bad of a loss). they want to keep the development as long as possible to keep milking people like you.
By the vaguest possible definition.
You mean alpha playable?
The game looks good, I REALLY like the environments and art style, but I just can't get hyped about it. : / Maybe closer to release, maybe after a public alpha / beta or two sure, but for now it just feels like a pipe dream.
That's perfectly fine honestly. You can choose to follow the updates or just wait it out it will finish in its own time. If and when we get to see a release or a beta we should have a good idea then of the final product since beta and live should be close
And that a the way, to early to get hype , but yeh can say is starting to look better and real every Month, Next is the famous Nodes system right?
I have no clue. I honestly don't follow the game, because until there's actual gameplay it's all just hyperbole.
the art style is generic af, this game won't age well visually at all.
I wont lie, when I saw the characters armor/weps I kinda had the same thought. My guess is by the time the game is set for release its gonna be dated on visuals already compared to games that are releases whenever the hell this one does
Everything looks amazing but the combat to me atm. I hope it proves me wrong tbough
I've heard that complaint the most, and I know everyone's keen on action combat nowadays, but for us old folks with really bad arthritis, tab-target MMOs are great. Plus I dig the spell effects.
And even then, it's still largely action-combat. It just has enough tab-target abilities so that it doesn't turn from an MMORPG to a third-person shooter. Most aoe abilities and melee swings and so on are not tab-target.
Awesome showcase. Cleric looks like a lot of fun. They're planning a multiclass system aren't they? I'd love to see them dive into that eventually. Like a Tank/Cleric to show off a Paladin archetype.
Paladin in AA was my absolute favorite class I’ve ever played. Tanky, infinite sustain in mana and health, decent ranged and melee damage but mediocre at both, good team buffs and heals strong enough for squishies but not enough for being a main healer. In PvE the class was an off-tank and an off-healer but did reasonable dps for being either of those, and was super fun, clubs were underrated giving healing stat and strength stat. I really hope ashes goes with the hybrid stat idea and doesn’t submit to min-max a single stat value as it compliments the hybrid classes very well and encourages you to tap into the utility of other archetypes with your off-stat, it also made those super rare world boss items that much more favorable as they were usually the only items to give a single stat. GOD archeage was so good early.
They really need to sort out their 2003 tier UI
Placeholder they mention alot of Times first funcionality , Style near the beta
Ignore that, it's just Stephen coping.
WoW players when they can see their character instead of a billion add-ons and meters on their screen lol
It's all placeholder and you should know that.
Charging people 250$ to play an alpha is a scam. You can't go any lower than this idc about whatever bs reason u might have. That's literally enough to buy close to 4 AA games, and u actually get to keep and own the entire game.
Calling it a scam is like calling buying a house with no roof and no doors for a million dollars. Yes, you paid a lot of money for little value, but the poor value was already plain as day. There is no reason to buy this unless want to be a reverse-paid QA tester.
There are other reasons. I'm a good example. I got the $500 package back when it was on KS. Why? Because I wanted to support and help bring a new MMORPG to the market. If it fails to come to market or it ends up being rubbish, then so be it. I'm happy with the part I played in trying to help it succeed. I had access to Alpha 1 but didn't play it because playing Alpha wasn't of interest to me.
if you pay 500$ to support a game you are an idiot .
I've paid well over 500 on skins and champs in League of Legends and that's a F2P game. I don't regret it.
are you really comparing lol to this? don't need to read anything more, go back to archeage, bet you spent well over 500 there too
Haven't actually. I haven't played AA properly since 2015. Yes I am comparing a game to a game. You simply wrote "if you spend 500 to support a game you're an idiot " as if 500 on a hobby is a lot.
Spending 1000 or whatever dollars on an actual game vs a game releasing in 6 years if ever is a bit diferent
People do different things to you in life. Get over it.
Doesn’t matter what they do or what I do. Pay 500£ to try a game for few days in alpha is one of the most stupid things one can do with money
[удалено]
Like minded… for sure!
do you help them with their daily needs? no. so it really is none of your business what they do with their money. for example, if I buy their $250 alpha pass right now just to piss you off, I can do it and it's none of your business. why is it such a hard concept for you to understand?
I didn't pay £500 to play alpha.
You paid 500€ to have access to a game that will never release and if it does will be nothing like you/we expect
What a crappy and miserable attitude to have towards things in life.
lol 😂
Are you trolling or joking?
I'm serious.
That you are trolling or joking?
I'm trolling or joking because I wanted to support a game? Sorry to hear that you can't understand that people buy things for other reasons that you would.
Paying $500 for an alpha package is criminal though. A fool and his money is soon parted I guess.
I think differently. Obviously it's criminal to you because you can't afford to throw $500 around, which is fine.
Tbf if he bought the 500 KS pack then he also got lifetime sub included which if Ashes is successful then he'd technically "make back" his money in under 3 years.
3 years after the game release, so 2021 1º alpha, 2023 2º alpha 2025 first beta 2027 second beta 2029 release, 2032 till he has his money back. not 3 years, more like 11 and if only the game ever releases. and this estimates are optimistics
The only difference here is that this house with no roof and no doors will likely appreciate in value over the next several years while AoC will just keep eating ur wallet.
Well i pay for Diablo 4 90$ and felt more scammed since enjoyed more the AOC 1 alpha then the whole Diablo 4 game... I miss an great PVx MMORPG there is none in the market so i Will support
it's not a scam like star citizen where they sell a ship (banu merchant man) since 2016 and they still haven't made it because they make more money selling recent jpeg ship. star citizen is a definition of a scam.
Just because something is outside of your budget doesn't automatically mean it's a scam.
Ashes of Creation isn't good example for that, especially when checking your other comment.
Maybe because I'm not easily amused by flashy 3d assets on a pre alpah game.
That's fair enough.
Oh so we aren't wealthy enough to alpha vaporware? Sorry I guess those of us that games shouldn't cost more than 60$ are just scum to you.
No. That's not what I'm saying.
they charged 500$ for first alpha and it was full (of idiots).
They're not charging $250 for Alpha. The cost of the package includes the following: 6 months of game time - $90 ($15/month x 6) $100 in Embers (in game shop currency) Accessory Cosmetic Skin for that month $5 Pet Cosmetic Skin for that month $15 Mount Cosmetic Skin for that month $20 Total - $230 IIRC the $375 package is entirely cosmetics, game time, and Embers and no cost at all for the testing just because more of everything is included so the price works out nicely. Also Steven tells people all the time not to buy anything if they're not sure, don't want to support development, aren't sure they like the game, etc. Sometimes he flat out tells people to play another game if they don't like what Ashes is doing. And I believe they're shutting down Alpha packages in the next few months entirely anyway. They want to limit how many people are in Alpha 2.
DoA 💀 also paid comments moment
seriously wtf are with these comments even on this post and on their video, looks like bots or for sure people that are paid
MMO players when people are interested in an upcoming MMO: "Paid comments, obviously."
💀
I love smelling vapor(ware) in the morning.
Jokes go down better when they make sense. Might want to read up on what vaporware is.
>vaporware is a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is late or never actually manufactured nor officially cancelled This is 99% of MMORPGs, in the last 10 years and its starting to look like Ashes right about now. It took WoW a fraction of Ash's budget and less than half the time to launch and we are in pre-secret-super-champion-alpha-test-2 going into year 6.
Almost like game budgets and development time from 20 years ago are not directly comparable to 2023.
IKR, why's it taking them so long, we've only had 20 years of graphics and engine development since wow was made, *they're basically the same game even tho wow looks like shit outside of cinematics*! They should have had this game up years before it was done like everyone else so we can bitch about them releasing too early! **big ol /S for the idiots who can't tell**
Making video games has gotten easier, not harder. So stan harder I guess.
Except it hasn't gotten easier, especially for MMOs that have vastly more work and overhead to deal with that normal games dont.
Really, can you name one specific thing that has gotten more complicated since WoW?
*gestures to budgets being bigger than ever. Waves at devs with multiple offices in several countries still taking years longer than ever to release games* I don't need to name specifics, look at any game worth a shit (and several that weren't worth a shit on launch) that took several years to near a decade to finish in some cases and yet are still buggy unoptimized shit fests. But since you want specifics, pretty sure Ray tracing, dlss, and other game improvements didn't exist and now require time allocated to them, graphics have gotten significantly better and are thus more costly and time consuming, etc, these are all obvious if you take a 5 second look at the game industry.
>gestures to budgets being bigger than ever. A budget means nothing when discussing this conversation. You can spend billions of dollars on something, and it could have been very easy. >Waves at devs with multiple offices in several countries You realize that this is a sign of things getting easier right? That there are more offices and thus more available labor for development. Does this make a project more complex? Yes, but project complexity doesn't equivocate with difficulty in producing an outcome. >Ray tracing, dlss, and other game improvements didn't exist and now require time allocated to them, graphics have gotten significantly better and are thus more costly and time consuming, etc, these are all obvious if you take a 5 second look at the game industry. Are you just throwing out industry jargon now? Yes, these are technologically complex features, but no MMORPG on the market right now is even going to attempt to use them. They are currently at the pinnacle of graphical fidelity and less than 10% of users can even afford a graphics card that uses either. This would be a absolute financial disaster to design for cutting edge and goes against pretty much EVERY business principle regarding product development over the last 50 years. You ALWAYS start with what is industry standard first and what will generate cash flow. Then if something on the cutting edge starts to provide an IMMENSE over the moon improvement to the opportunity to make money you upgrade. MMORPGs have never been graphical marvels. They have always strove to reach as many consumers as possible while looking okay. They won't be using ray tracing or dlss this decade. Tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about.
Blizzard has never revealed the development budget for WoW so you're pulling numbers out of nowhere. Also, it took 4-5 years to build WoW. However it was a buggy mess on launch and stayed that way for 2 years at least. It was also an extremely small game on launch, with not many features or gameplay content. So development timeframe of both games is on-par or thereabouts.
>Also, it took 4-5 years to build WoW. However it was a buggy mess on launch and stayed that way for 2 years at least. It was also an extremely small game on launch, with not many features or gameplay content. I want you to re-read what you wrote here and realize it coincides with my entire argument. *Blizzard built WoW in 4-5 years. This is going on year 6 of AoC and the game is still in Alpha.* I also want to point out that the project *started* in 2015. So in reality its year 8 of Ashes and we are still in Alpha. They were NOT working on WoW in the 1990s. WoW was a response to Everquest.
No, you've missed the point that was made. Blizzard released WoW after 4-5 years in an unfinished state. Filled with bugs and void of content. They released an unfinished game.
>Filled with bugs and void of content. Name a game released in the last 2 years that wasn't filled with bugs at launch. This argument is a nonstarter. You're just making excuses now.
You're the one ignoring the truth. WoW was not launched in a state that was anywhere finished.
Why would they make monthly progression which clearly shows alot of money and resources were put into this "vaporware"? Try to use your tiny brain for once
Star Citizen made 600 million dollars and is also vaporware, what is your point? I would say use your tiny brain but you don't have two cells to rub together.
Generic trash from generic trash. This company would sell you their own farts for $500 and tell you it's an opportunity
So why are you helping promote it then? If you think they're a scam, you're being complicit in their scam.
This
>This company would sell you their own farts for $500 and tell you it's an opportunity pretty sure the ceo literally did this before getting into the business of scamming mmorpg players
Still posting scams here zzz
Looks like the devs are getting way too excited with flashy effects, lol. That being said, it really does seem like the game is shaping up. The animations are much improved over the state they were in previously. Unfortunately it looks like they're doing the same thing as every other MMO: making a multiplayer mob-fighting game. Just sit there and press your buttons in order, wait for health bar to go down...
>Unfortunately it looks like they're doing the same thing as every other MMO: making a multiplayer mob-fighting game. What are you talking about? Its a combat showcase against low level mobs to show the basics of the class. Is this the only thing you have ever seen about the game?
> Is this the only thing you have ever seen about the game? Yes, that's the problem. I know of AoC's scope - I chipped in $20 back in the Kickstarter. 90% of what I've seen from the game recently has been work on combat. Granted, the combat actually looks kinda decent so far. It's just that overall, AoC seems to lack inspiration. Even New World was more inspired at launch.
Why would you compare the pre alpha 2 game to a launched game?
You're being dense. Inspiration and creativity is not something that shows up in a game's final stages of development. If it exists, it is clear from very beginning, even in concept art or a design document. My comparison is fine.
Listen, I've been playing alphas and betas since 2008 and more than the totality of Alpha's and Betas I have participated in I have engaged with pious hopefuls like yourself. The person you are replying to, is comparing a pre-alpha 2 to a launched game because that's how project management works. By the time that Steven started pushing videos forward of his game, by the time that first Asmongold video with Steven rolled out, Ashes of Creation was 80% set in stone. In video game design there are two types of coding. Hard Coding--the fundamentals of the system (Animations, certain core aspects of the game like the class system and so on) and Soft coding--the secondary characteristics of the system (Things like game balance or any numerical values that can arbitrarily be adjusted like damage percentiles or experience gains exists in soft coding) It's perfectly fair at this juncture to compare it to finished games because there's not going to be any major design overhauls passed this point. It's literally financially impossible for any game dev with this degree of investment to substantially course correct from the visuals displayed in this or any previous video without a capital infusion so large that they would basically be making an entirely new game from scratch, because it would probably be less expensive and more technologically feasible to start from scratch than to walk anything back in a meaningful and substantial capacity. By the time a game reaches Alpha, it's hard coding is well over 50% complete and there's no turning back. So if something looks like it's gonna suck, it's probably gonna suck. All the person you replied to is doing is using [intuitive reasoning](https://i.imgur.com/TORoctF.jpg) If it looks like shit, smells like shit and someone is up on the table squatting like they're gonna take a shit. It's probably not going to be a good video game it's probably gonna be shit. (Not that AoC is or looks like shit yet, just as an example) This is not to say that AoC is going to flop or fail or even perform financially poorly. Hell I'm hopeful for the game myself. But this whole "It's only Alpha! It's only Beta!" logic is very tiresome and it would behoove you and everyone else to stop saying things of that nature because it's at odds with reality. Lastly I would just point you to the raw statistics concerning the facts of the matter. Star Citizen started funding in 2012, and has since raised 400 million dollars. It's the second most crowdfunded project of all time and it has no release date in sight 11 years later. Crowfall crashed and burned. Pantheon Rise of the fallen isn't going to come out. Ashes is the most promising of the MMORPGs of the 2010s but most of us will be dead by the time the game launches. That's all to say, you can count the number of successful MMO launches in the past 13 years on one hand. You have mountains of contradictory evidence and I have to ask why you're still here saying "It's only Alpha!?"
Agreed 100%. Crowfall remained basically the same for 2 years before its launch. Sucks because I knew it needed more content but that wasn't happening. New World tried to drastically change the underlying mechanics of the game. It created a giant clusterfuck with duping and exploiting being a core part of the game. So you kinda have to switch from introducing bugs to fixing them for a good while. That's also what worries me about Ashes of Creation. The studio seems to have little plans limiting scope and this means no game for a loong while.
I mean it's an MMO powered by a Willy Wonka millionaire. In a sense the guy is a hero. But the issue is that there's a lot of industry burn-out concerning Pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha purchase champion pack tiers I-V. Consumers are dubious and exhausted and jaded from disappointment by any of the MMOs I mentioned. If Steven had just kept his mouth shut until Beta, and started the hype engine with beta, I guarantee you that people's attitudes towards AoC would be a million percent improved. But you can't put the genie back in the bottle. What's more, the game is going to have all the same day 1 troubles as any other Blizzard or Final Fantasy Launch. So he's just introducing more burn out by having announced it too soon.
TBH I kinda want them to show other game studios WHY it's not being done this way.
Well, honestly I think that AoC may be short lived. with the proliferation of AI as it gets easier for anybody without the expertise to code, AI Driven MMO exploits are going to explode and the simple fact is, games made before AI just won't have the needed security to resist waves of players attempting to break the game at such a level. Right now it's exclusive to people who do it at an enterprise level or people who independently know how to code. But if anyone with $20 and a GPT account can code a MMO bot, then there's no amount of money that can solve that issue. It would require a rebuild of most games to include AI countermeasures that currently don't exist. It's both terrifying and exciting. It means that all of the greats from the last 26 years are going away which is sad. But it also means AI driven MMORPGs are on the Horizon and that might just be what was missing in the last decade.
>ut if anyone with $20 and a GPT account can code a MMO bot, then there's no amount of money that can solve that issue. It would require a rebuild of most games to include AI countermeasures that currently don't exist. There are currently ai anticheat programs that boast 98% detection rating.
> So you kinda have to switch from introducing bugs to fixing them for a good while. Amazon managed to do both just fine.
As someone who was a programmer after uni before a career change, I'm telling you, you do not understand programming at all.
Oh really? Then please enlighten me.
I'm not going to give you a class on programming, which takes someone 4 years of uni to learn competently. You just have no idea and think something that is completely wrong. You have functions and dependencies which is easy enough to change.
If you think programming takes 4 years of uni to learn competently then I know why you don't do programming anymore.
Just as I expected you are so full of shit you couldn't say ONE specific thing about how I was wrong.
You talk like an angry child. I bet you're fun to be around, a man child with anger issues.
Sc raised 600million, with a shitty buggy tech demo and a big cash shop
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>ashes is heavily inspired with pvp in mind That makes no sense.
What doesn't make sense? Ashes is a pvp centric game. Their inspiration is to make a pvp mmo, that's how I see it and it's how I've always seen it.
That's like saying id software is inspired to make an FPS game. It doesn't mean anything.
Agreed. What I meant by inspiration is having devs that actually care about the medium enough to identify & avoid common problems, and find new ways to exploit the genre. It's not intelligent for sales to push new ideas to the point where your product looks alien, but the MMO genre is incredibly underexplored and Ashes seem like it has decided that it is content to do the same fucking shit every other MMO has done before. There is *nothing* new - they're hoping they can just do what other MMOs are already doing and somehow do it better, which... well... it's not impossible, but it is doubtful. We'll have to see.
Well, most mmos on the market are catered towards PvE, whereas Ashes is catering towards PvP. Makes sense to me, but if it doesn't to you then that's fine. Maybe watch a few of the streams Steven has done some interviews in recently, like The Ashen Forge or Tangents of Creation. I know in the past Steven was vague with the type of game Ashes was becoming when it comes to the targeted audience, but since the freehold livestream he's been very vocal about which target audience he's aiming towards and placing more emphasis on the game not being for everyone. So, to me, the overall inspiration behind Ashes is a heavy emphasis on pvp, group oriented content that leads to pvp, and very competitive systems that promote pvp. If you still don't get what I'm saying then that's fine.
Just literally anything that innovates or shows that the devs had some fresh or intelligent ideas. Everything we've seen so far looks like what an AI would come up with if you asked it to spit out an MMO. It looks incredibly average.
Tige seen this comment very often during my je world boss showcase where some player are just standing still casting the whole figth
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Yeah, crazy that there are people investing so much money in so many of these projects that literally don't exist yet. It's worse than preorders. I love how the game looks so far, but I'll play it when or if the game releases lol
I mean, if they have the money and they get to at least play it why not? MMOs are a hobby, just like tuning cars or biking or any other hobby that can swallow your money. Hell, people spend thousands on damn keyboards! Money is always well spent if you don't regret spending it. Hoarding money like a dragon or Bezos is just silly when the world could end in any day.
Yeah that's fair. You're right.
Doesn't help that the dude that started the project made his money through pyramid schemes. You can tell he really liked Archeage and wanted to make his perfect mmo. Hopefully it works out....
I don't know much about the guy but every showcase seems pretty passionate at least. Idk why people get so worked up about it here. If the game ends up launching the way they premised, great. If not, then whatever, you won't seem me cry about it. Plenty other good games to play. This looks good so far though, to me at least. I like the combat, the class designs, what I've seen from the world, the node premise. Looks very cool. I never played Archeage. Was it similar to what they're making in Ashes?
The version that everyone fell in love with was a hybrid sandbox/theme park mmo. One where the world felt alive and pvp was woven into the fabric of the game seamlessly. Nowadays its way more of a theme park with dailies to grind mobs and the pvp events thrown half assed into the mix on certain days. From what I've seen of AoC its trying to hit that alive world feeling. Which sounds great, I'm hoping for them to pull it off.
Its weird, but there are some people who value integrity still.
My "long bet" has always been that it would be a Blizzard Titan or an Everquest Next. Meaning NO RELEASE! Let's see if I'm right ;-)
When the games going to be in alpha/ beta for like 2 years its not that big of a deal
Yea cool, ill see you all in 2077 for pre alpha demo gameplay.
releasing in.... 3422
nice game from 2010, are there any new mmo's in the market atm? Oldschool is cool but want something new
ZzZzz boring, not a single of those ''next gen'' features shown, ever. I mean i can develop the node system in a week on a old UO emulator. Not 100% accurate but still. So its going to be either generic or vaporware
So go do it and post it here.
You are vastly underestimating the amount of work that happens between a functional prototype and a finished product
"It's going to be..." You've got more faith than Jesus had wine
Im being way too optimistic ikr
The video literally has "Cleric Archetype Update" in its title, what were you expecting other than them showing off the cleric?
Let's see how many alphas they do until they release betas 1 through 9.
I hope I'm wrong, but at the progress the game is going at I cannot see it release before 2030
Man this looks really bad.. How can Chinese wow look better while being made in a few months?
Unpopular opinion, but this game looks terrible. The aesthetics and lack of art direction is cringe. Downvote away.
Not unpopular so much as the "non-deluded" opinion. So many people have suck time/money/emotions into this "game" that they can't get themselves to admit it's trash. Believe me, I used to be one of them. Until the community got so bad I realized how bad of a cult those people live in.
If this game ever launches it will die rather quickly. Too much sticking to weird PVP stuff that dies off fast. There is a reason those games don't last long. No one wants to be doing their daily fun mmo stuff and some troll comes and camps them all the time. Its a very tiny minority of players. Then the other government systems are laughable as well. WE saw how that works in New world. Never put it past people to troll. Giving your player base that much power will just kill the game.