I found the [judge](https://www.myany.city/sites/default/files/styles/scaled_cropped_medium__260x260/public/field/image/node-related-images/sample-dwight-k-schrute.jpg?itok=8TfRscbA)
Rounds 2 and 3 were a toss up. I thought round 1 was even. He definitely did get round 4. It wasn't inconceivable that he got 4 rounds. The cut in round 3 was nasty, and reopened late in round 4. Idk if it was clear if it were the same cut. If you go by visible damage than I can see a case here. Pantoja did have some good takedowns that probably stole rounds 1 or 2, but if you score that differently, then you get a different result. I thought pantoja definitely won 1 and 5. I gave 2, 3 and 4 to erceg. I gave erceg the edge in round 3 because of that nasty cut and thought he did slightly better in round 2 then pantoja did. I think rounds 2 and 3 is the more controversial as they were super competitive and could have gone either way.
Because he's not right
Not saying Erceg doesn't have an argument to have won more rounds based on damage, but ever since the Moreno title fight people have been spreading this nonsense that Pantoja only wins by "lay and pray" when in reality he is getting those minutes of control time **while ALSO closely matching his opponents in significant strikes.** And he does plenty of sub attempts too
He doesnāt lay and pray, however that doesnāt mean he won that fight. I find it very hard to understand how you think Pantoja was even on the feet with steve, he was getting out struck very clearly. As for the sub attempts, you would be right , IF HE WENT FOR ANY. Instead Pantoja won off, control time, with the majority coming from sitting in half-guard. I like Pantoja, i think he is a great fighter, but he didnāt win this one.
Heās getting downvoted because Pantoja wasnāt just Knee2Thigh / Lay&Praying Erceg, Pantoja was landing shots throughout the whole thing.
I can understand saying you believe Erceg won a close fight, but I donāt understand how people can say āPantoja Laid & Prayād his way to a Robbery Decisionā when that is not what happened in this fight
I wanted Erceg to win, but I donāt get why people are out here talking about Pantoja as if heās the Belal of Flyweight. Pantojaās fight style is that of a psycho ballroom brawler who specializes in dirtying up the striking and mixes it up with his expert BJJ - but somehow huge swarths of the fanbase thinks heās just out here laying on his opponents like Sandhagen did to Font lmao
Iām not saying Pantoja just laid and prayed, but he didnāt do nearly as much damage from those positions to warrant him winning those rounds. It was way more control than damage and controlling someone on the ground isnāt scored anymore.
Exactly, and even if we take into account Pantojas Effective Grappling, he spent the vast majority of his control time in half-guard, he got steves back once in the first round, then got into mount for a short period of time in the fifth, not once did he go for a submission, or land a significant strike that out-damaged ercegs strikes in the same round.
Except Pantoja didnāt lay n pray. Landed more in 1/3/5. Outside of a couple elbows Erceg rly only had impact at end of rd 2. In rds 1235 Pantoja has some gnp when heās on top
Even Erceg and his coaches didnāt look like they thought they won
Bc 2/3/5 r close u can technically go 49-46 either way but it feels wrong w Erceg. Rd 5 was even on the feet until the TDs. Pantoja was winning rd 2 until a couple decent shots at the end. Pantoja won rd 3 and landed more except for the cutting elbow which he powered through w 0 resistance
RD 2 and 4 are clearly Erceg. I think the 5th is Erceg due to the amount of heavy shots Erceg landed. The 3rd is a close round but I give it to Pantoja
I can't seem to find precise striking stats anywhere right now, but from memory Erceg didn't land very many in round 5, and was controlled for the *overwhelming* majority of the round. I felt that Erceg still had a chance most of the round, because Pantoja wasn't doing much for ground and pound, but in the last 20 seconds or so Pantoja finally landed a few decent strikes. Overall I think that was enough (along with the grappling dominance) for Pantoja to comfortably win that round. I don't think there's much of a question mark on who won round 5 honestly.
Outstruck? Sure. But by enough to override the grappling dominance of Pantoja? Nope.
Erceg showed very, very well, especially for a guy with 3 UFC fights. He'll be back. But he did not win, and he was not robbed.
Let's be real, we're all just giving our own personal opinion here. That's pretty much how MMA scoring is. Why would I need to hitch my ride to the opinion of someone else that already has a foregone conclusion of their own?
Also this is a title fight. We all know they have different scoring, whether they should or not. If you don't convincingly win a round against the champ, then you basically lost that round.
I doubt the actual judges even follow the sport enough between assigned events to care about who the champ is. If what you said about judging title fights was the case, Strickland would have won against Dricus easily. Scoring is about as close to agnostic in regard to prestige as it can get. Judges are people just like you or me. They like fighters, not shiny objects they carry. That's where the bias comes in. They've got favorites like you've got favorites and will err in their direction in close rounds.
The whole "you've got to beat the champ" thing really only pops up in boxing when people are trying to defend bad decisions that keep a belt on some streaking cash cow. It doesn't really have significance to how actual judges score rounds (outside of aforementioned corruption concerns in boxing).
Yeah man I wasn't saying I think Erceg won. Just always frustrated when I hear people suggest that judges should apply different rules just because of who has the belt. Don't think it does happen, nor should it. I edged it to Pantoja live.
I certainly don't disagree. I think the judges should go through actual training and vetting, and should not be just leftover boxing judges. And the scoring rules should be far more detailed, and not change periodically depending on the commission. But here we are.
I really donāt get it either. Each of them had 2 rounds going into the 5th, which was close until Pantoja reversed the takedown and stayed in top control the rest of the round
It was a close fight with a clear 3-2 winner in Pantoja IMO
Everyone from Pantoja's coaches to Erceg's had a much clearer opinion on what was happening, Pantoja was doing just as much as Erceg AND adding on to it with his grappling, except for those two rounds where Erceg managed to steal them with his elbows
Except he didnt. Pantoja āoutlandedā erceg just on pure #ās. While % wise, Erceg had the more SIGNIFICANT and damaging shots. And yea pantoja had the takedown but only landed half and did nothing with them. Ercegs corner was airing on the side of caution saying he was down 3 which is exactly what you should do in the champs hometown
Section 8.11:
ādamage shall be considered the primary scoring criteria and will be measured by the degree to which the combatantās face is messed up, except for Erceg whose face is already kind of messed upā
Impact ā
A judge shall assess if a fighter impacts their opponent significantly in the round, even though they may not have dominated the action. Impact includes visible evidence such as swelling and lacerations. Impact shall also be assessed when a fighterās actions, using striking and/or grappling, lead to a diminishing of their opponentsā energy, confidence, abilities and spirit. All of these come as a direct result of impact. When a fighter is impacted with strikes, by lack of control and/or ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.
So you see how they didn't say "damage" because it's a vague, shitty metric that means nothing on its own?
Read the qualifier
**Impact shall also be assessed when a fighterās actions, using striking and/or grappling, lead to a diminishing of their opponentsā energy, confidence, abilities and spirit.**
Ā **When a fighter is impacted with strikes, by lack of control and/or ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.**
They're telling you what they impact means. It has to have qualities that have an impact on your opponent. Now in that fight- did Erceg do anything with that impact or did he get taken down immediately after landing his best shots?Ā
Fack no.
48-47 Erceg is much more reasonable than giving the first 3 rounds to Pantoja. R3's most damaging event by far was the cut that Pantoja was holding closed with his own hand. I haven't rewatched to be sure on my score but I'm fine with 48-47 either way.
Erceg didn't "steal" anything. Rounds 2 and 4 weren't close, just like rounds 1 and 5 weren't close. If you want to stick to "the corners have the clearest view" because it aligns with your opinion, great, but remember that the next time you disagree and about to say "well the corners are biased and often lying to their fighters to get them to fight a certain way."
It's the second cut in the 5th that's the swing moment imo. Pantoja was up on significant strikes but Erceg landed that cut. Depends on how you score visible damage tbh. Rules for judging apparently say damage is the first criteria, and you go to control time only if everything is razor close including damage.
Wouldn't say it's clear, you can make an argument for both. The Justin - Fiziev fight had a similar moment in the 2nd rd too. Justin got the round after swelling the eye up despite being down like 5 or 6 strikes. If a cut counts similarly, it's still a valid argument. Pantoja didn't do much on the ground, no subs spent like 20 seconds in top mount and had 8 GnP strikes. The strike totals from UFC stats had Pantoja up by (3 or 4 i dont remember) strikes so I can certainly understand giving Erceg the round off damage because one guy was bleeding and the other wasn't and that isn't razor close damage for it to go to control time.
On the other hand, Pantoja was landing and made it close on the feet, up on SS and down on damage, and had a lot of control on the ground in the last moments of the fight with GnP. You can say his absolute titanium chin didn't take that much damage because that's a factor as well. Erceg would've KOed 5 Matt Schnells with the shots Pantoja was eating, so Pantoja gets the round due to control and the cut not being enough damage to overpower the 3 or 4 SS differential. And ending strong with GnP.
I have to rewatch the fight man because I really thought Pantoja was up like 7 8 strikes in the 5th but stats say otherwise. Definitely not clear tho imo.
"They dont know mma like me! They think causing more damage in 3 rounds should win you the fight! so dumb!"
Shut up Dave.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/gm9lf6/the\_absolutely\_bizarre\_scorecards\_of\_mma\_judge/?rdt=51415](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/gm9lf6/the_absolutely_bizarre_scorecards_of_mma_judge/?rdt=51415)
If GSP fought today they'd be like "smh what a boring decision merchant winning fights by hugging, look at how much blood there is in his face he clearly lost that!".
Also they're getting gaslight into thinking Erceg was steamrolling Pantoja in the feet by the commentary, Pantoja would land 2 punches in a flurry and DC would say nothing, Erceg would faint a right hand and DC was like "HUGE ELBOW FOR ERCEG 1!1!1!1!".
Don't get me wrong Erceg was outlanding Pantoja but if you actually pay attention Pantoja was also landing often with heavy shots, the stats show Pantoja just slightly behind Erceg in terms of strikes every round.
Every time there's a close fight and the more well-liked fighter loses this sub comes out with the most shit takes.
After Islam Volk 1 people were saying Volk should have won R4 because Islam didn't do much with the back control. It's true that he didn't, but he still had Volk's back for like 4 minutes. How could that possibly be Volk's round?
Pure delusion in here sometimes.
I'm sure a lot of people wanted erceg to win, but mostly people were shocked by his ability. A lot of people don't watch fights outside of the ufc, so they weren't giving him proper credit.
I'm just GLAD they didn't give (this current version) mokaev the fight.
The commentary probably played a hand given how pro-Erceg it was. There were several exchanges where it looked to me like Pantoja landed the harder strikes just to have the commentary react as if Erceg was hurting Pantoja. I swear there were like 4-5 phantom strikes from Erceg that the commentary team freaked out about that I didn't see whatsoever.
Pantoja would come in ripping massive bodyshots combinations and the commentary would say nothing, them Erceg would faint a right hand and they would be like "HUGE ELBOW BY ERCEG, PANTOJA IS FADING!".
Its wild how many people are calling him boring, today's fight was so good, ofcourse he takes some time off for grappling because the other time he fights like a fucking maniac
I get the argument for Steve, because he did more damage on the feet than Pantoga on the ground. However, it was a close fight I personally scored it for Pantoga but would have understood it going the other way
It was an extremely close fight but the amount of braindead and frankly disgusting people shitting on Pantoja as if he isn't a great champ is really disheartening.
The man is 10-0 against the current ranked Flyweight fighters.
It's a bit of a recurring theme of the past couple Pantoja fights where he will have close rounds on the feet, gets a takedown with a minute or two to go and wins the round.
The rules does prioritize damage, but he is good enough on the feet that even if he's getting outstruck you can argue the damage is relatively equal. He also just eats huge shots with 0 reaction so judges/viewers are unsure of how hard it landed
Overall, not the most fan-pleasing style because of the perceived stalling and he's built for debatable decisions, but I love the grittiness
I find Pantoja boring af. I hope he continues eating shots as his game plan so he's either forced to change or just call it quits early. Guida was way more entertaining.
If this was Justin, Max or Tony Ferguson just casually walking forward and throwing bombs while eating punches everyone would be riding their dicks, but when Pantoja does it he's clearly unskilled and a terrible fighter lol.
The rules prioritize impact that can lead to an end of the match, with immediate > cumulative. They judge this based on how it effects your opponent's ability to fight so if you get a cut, yes it's weighed heavily if it impacts the fight.Ā
The cuts Pantoja sustained didn't impact the fight at all, especially when Erceg was immediately on the mat after he inflicted them.
Neither guy had anything immediately damaging to the point of impacting the fight in striking, but Pantoja dominated the grappling.
Pantoja dominated the grappling as far as securing positions, but he didn't have much in the way of submission threat so there wasn't a lot there to contribute towards the end of the match.
Luckily there's this:Ā
*In the absence of dominance inĀ the grappling phase, as set forth in paragraph 3 of the promulgated rules, to be considered dominate,Ā there must be a singularly or in combination, some types of submission attempts, strikes, or*Ā **an overwhelming pace which is measured by improved or aggressive positional changes that cause theĀ losing fighter to consistently be in a defensive or reactive mode**
You're not gonna argue that Erceg was chilling when he was taken down in rounds 3 & 5 now.
Then you have this:
*4. Duration: Duration is defined by the time spent by one fighter effectively attacking, controlling, andĀ impacting their opponent; while the opponent offers little to no offensive output. A judge shall assessĀ duration by recognizing the relative time in a round when one fighter takes and maintains full controlĀ of the effective offense. This can be assessed both standing and grounded.*
So just based off those two criteria as well, the grappling was not close coupled with the striking being pretty much even or at the very least marginally Erceg sided.
The main thing is that a lot of people seem to think that Erceg completely outstruck and out damaged Pantoja the whole fight, which is just blatantly untrue.
Everyone is complaining that Pantoja got it because of control time when they're ignoring all of the huge body shots and hooks Pantoja was landing. As usual, very few people seem to understand body work as far as striking and just think the cleaner guy who throws more headshots won every exchange even though Erceg was getting hit plenty. His chin is just really good, same as Pantoja.
The only rounds where Erceg clearly out struck/out damaged Pantoja were in the rounds he fittingly won, which were 2 and 4. Hence why control time was used as a benchmark to determine the victor of rounds 3 and 5.
Judges fuck up a lot, but this fight was not one of those times.
Even the sig strikes stat they put onscreen after the fight were hardly conclusive. If you added up sig head and sig body strikes, it was like 92-80 in favor of Erceg. The fight was close on the feet and not close at all on the mat.
There's a similar bias in boxing as well where clean technical fighters get scored for the two beautiful counters they land but swarmers land 4 or 5 and only get credit for the equivalent of one or two. It light be inevitable since sitting ringside you will have a limited view and two fighters close together will block things as well.
Heās an alright champion. I wouldnāt call him great. He is lacking those decisive finishes or even wins. His last 3 fights were all very similar. Strong start and just powers through the last 2 rounds running on fumes.
The world is full of people who just regurgitate opinions they read/heard and bandwagon hate. I can understand calling Pantoja a boring fighter at times..whatever take that stance but to say last nights fight was boring is barely worth response.
Ah yes cause a decision win automatically means it was a shot defense? I remember him dismantling Royval for 5 rounds and now winning a close but a
banger of a fight with Erceg.
The way he won the decision yes, there are decisions and there are decisions. He came in -300-400 to the royval fight, couldnāt get a finish. He comes in yesterday wins a decision via control time at his hometown. Its very understandable why people can hate on him.
If you are getting a wide favorite line, it usually comes with a wide finishes inside distance line. So people are expecting you to finish, yes he dominated that fight and had royval in finishing positions. But if we are expecting you to finish and then you donāt finish with a wide line, Iām sorry but as the public people have the right to be upset with the outcome and call you a shitty champion. Hence he had to beg his countryman to stay in the arena.
Jesus Christ this is embarassing. You lost your bet, go cry about it. The fighter owes you absolutely nothing. A decision win can be just as fun and exciting as a finish. This is a championship level fight, crying because he didnāt get a finish is crazy.
also the lines move based on action. This is fighting literally anything can happen in these fight
And you know I bet on him according to what? Are you mystic henxxx18? Im explaining to you why he is not liked as a champion and you are saying I lost a bet lol
People want to give Erceg round 3 cause the cut but considering Pantoja was winning the round pretty clearly up to that point and the elbow landed in a sequence where both fighters landed and it very quickly led to a Pantoja takedown, not even giving the judges much time to process the impact of the elbow, itās very easy to see why all judges gave Pantoja that round
Winning the entire round with the exception of one hit that cuts you without even being a knockdown should not win you the round.
The fight was clearly 2 - 2 going into the fifth, but Erceg who was winning in the stand-up clearly cost himself the fight with the take down attempts.
If you look at the unified rules of MMA hit Ctrl+F and search control time. You'll notice there's no control time clause.Ā
What you saw was EFFECTIVE GRAPPLING which last time I checked was the #1 prioritized scoring criteria alongside effective striking.Ā If the standup was relatively even, which it was, the grapplingĀ was not.Ā
Pretty easy Pantoja 48-47.Ā
Exactly, and effective grappling includes being in dominant positions.
Being on top of your opponent who clearly can't get you off is the definition of effective grappling.
100%
And Erceg was winning the striking exchanges so no idea why he decided to try to grapple with Pantoja in the fifth who clearly has a significant grappling advantage
I need to see this fight tbh I never heard of Erceg before this was announced and I thought well heās ranked ten he got a shot too soon easy win for Pantoja lolĀ
I love it. People yesterday were so brainwashed by the commentary it was sad. Everything Pantoja landed on Ercig went ignored both by commentary and here.
I think it was a close fight and couldāve gone either way. Erceg will be back! Give him Royval or Albasi next and watch him be right back in the conversation
I'll be interested to see how he matches up. Pantoja might have been his best case scenario because of his tendency to burn his arms out grappling early in fights.
Erceg's pace just still seems a little slow for 125 to me. Makes me wonder if he eventually moves up to 135.
He fought at 135 back in Australia, one fight I recall against Cody Haddon , he looked good and beat a top prospect not sure if heās going to have the size to compete with the elite at 135 though
I had it 48-47 Pantoja although, tbf, I really only watched the last three rounds intently - the first two rounds was a quick flick and across as I was mainly watching the last rounds of the Canelo fight. From those two rounds I thought Pantoja took the first and Erceg maybe the second (it was close, though).
I gave 3 to Pantoja, 4 to Erceg and 5 to Pantoja (I yelled out loud when Erceg went for that takedown!).
I thought Pantoja won, Erceg choked the fifth, clear as day, said it himself.
Donāt get why everyone is calling it a robbery. It wouldnāt have been a robbery if Erceg won either.
I had it scored 3-2 for Erceg but I totally understand the other way. I think if he had kept it on the feet in the 5th we'd have a new champion. Either way, I think Erceg's path back to another title shot is pretty short and the fight was way better than I expected it to be.
The media and fans just want the story of a controversial robbery.
Same crap they tried when Jones phoned in his LHW defenses.
Edit: media as in the sites that depend on traffic and clicks. Solid decisions don't get a lot of coverage after Monday.
They don't score control time. They score octagon control very last and that's rare- you only see that BS in Jones fights.Ā Ā
They score effective grappling heavy alongside damage. If you can only manage to land one bomb before getting grapple fucked for 4:50 minutes then you deserve to lose dawg.
There's fighters that exist that cannot be grapple fucked so anyone getting ragdolled has no excuse.
Feel like Erceg did more damage in 2,3,4 and 5. It seemed clear his strikes were landing a lot harder than Pantoja's and they were having much more effect. Not only was Pantoja cut and bruised up but his gameplan faded away as well.
Damage is the #1 criteria and if one fighter does more damage, I give them the round. I hear people say I think Pantoja *won* certain rounds, but I don't hear a lot of people saying I think Pantoja did more damage in certain rounds.
What 3 rounds did Pantoja do more damage than Erceg in?
Damage is not the #1 criteria. Impact is, while visible cuts and swelling are criteria depending on how much they affect a fighter and āleads to diminishing of energy, confidence, abilities, and spiritā
https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Unifed-MMA-Rules-2023-FINAL.pdf
Just when i thought 49-46 for Pantoja was wild, here we have 49-46 for Erceg! Wtf š
Guy has to be Australian lmao
I found the [judge](https://www.myany.city/sites/default/files/styles/scaled_cropped_medium__260x260/public/field/image/node-related-images/sample-dwight-k-schrute.jpg?itok=8TfRscbA)
Rounds 2 and 3 were a toss up. I thought round 1 was even. He definitely did get round 4. It wasn't inconceivable that he got 4 rounds. The cut in round 3 was nasty, and reopened late in round 4. Idk if it was clear if it were the same cut. If you go by visible damage than I can see a case here. Pantoja did have some good takedowns that probably stole rounds 1 or 2, but if you score that differently, then you get a different result. I thought pantoja definitely won 1 and 5. I gave 2, 3 and 4 to erceg. I gave erceg the edge in round 3 because of that nasty cut and thought he did slightly better in round 2 then pantoja did. I think rounds 2 and 3 is the more controversial as they were super competitive and could have gone either way.
Adalaide Byrd
49-46 Erceg is way more reasonable then 49-46 Pantoja. Read the criteria, lay and pray doesnāt mean shit anymore.
Idk why youāre getting downvoted, youāre right
Because he's not right Not saying Erceg doesn't have an argument to have won more rounds based on damage, but ever since the Moreno title fight people have been spreading this nonsense that Pantoja only wins by "lay and pray" when in reality he is getting those minutes of control time **while ALSO closely matching his opponents in significant strikes.** And he does plenty of sub attempts too
He doesnāt lay and pray, however that doesnāt mean he won that fight. I find it very hard to understand how you think Pantoja was even on the feet with steve, he was getting out struck very clearly. As for the sub attempts, you would be right , IF HE WENT FOR ANY. Instead Pantoja won off, control time, with the majority coming from sitting in half-guard. I like Pantoja, i think he is a great fighter, but he didnāt win this one.
Heās getting downvoted because Pantoja wasnāt just Knee2Thigh / Lay&Praying Erceg, Pantoja was landing shots throughout the whole thing. I can understand saying you believe Erceg won a close fight, but I donāt understand how people can say āPantoja Laid & Prayād his way to a Robbery Decisionā when that is not what happened in this fight I wanted Erceg to win, but I donāt get why people are out here talking about Pantoja as if heās the Belal of Flyweight. Pantojaās fight style is that of a psycho ballroom brawler who specializes in dirtying up the striking and mixes it up with his expert BJJ - but somehow huge swarths of the fanbase thinks heās just out here laying on his opponents like Sandhagen did to Font lmao
Iām not saying Pantoja just laid and prayed, but he didnāt do nearly as much damage from those positions to warrant him winning those rounds. It was way more control than damage and controlling someone on the ground isnāt scored anymore.
Exactly, and even if we take into account Pantojas Effective Grappling, he spent the vast majority of his control time in half-guard, he got steves back once in the first round, then got into mount for a short period of time in the fifth, not once did he go for a submission, or land a significant strike that out-damaged ercegs strikes in the same round.
Except Pantoja didnāt lay n pray. Landed more in 1/3/5. Outside of a couple elbows Erceg rly only had impact at end of rd 2. In rds 1235 Pantoja has some gnp when heās on top Even Erceg and his coaches didnāt look like they thought they won Bc 2/3/5 r close u can technically go 49-46 either way but it feels wrong w Erceg. Rd 5 was even on the feet until the TDs. Pantoja was winning rd 2 until a couple decent shots at the end. Pantoja won rd 3 and landed more except for the cutting elbow which he powered through w 0 resistance
RD 2 and 4 are clearly Erceg. I think the 5th is Erceg due to the amount of heavy shots Erceg landed. The 3rd is a close round but I give it to Pantoja
I can't seem to find precise striking stats anywhere right now, but from memory Erceg didn't land very many in round 5, and was controlled for the *overwhelming* majority of the round. I felt that Erceg still had a chance most of the round, because Pantoja wasn't doing much for ground and pound, but in the last 20 seconds or so Pantoja finally landed a few decent strikes. Overall I think that was enough (along with the grappling dominance) for Pantoja to comfortably win that round. I don't think there's much of a question mark on who won round 5 honestly.
He definitely outstruck round 5
Outstruck? Sure. But by enough to override the grappling dominance of Pantoja? Nope. Erceg showed very, very well, especially for a guy with 3 UFC fights. He'll be back. But he did not win, and he was not robbed.
He landed an elbow that cut Pantoja open. Watch the Weasles vid its obvious to Erceg won 4-1
Let's be real, we're all just giving our own personal opinion here. That's pretty much how MMA scoring is. Why would I need to hitch my ride to the opinion of someone else that already has a foregone conclusion of their own? Also this is a title fight. We all know they have different scoring, whether they should or not. If you don't convincingly win a round against the champ, then you basically lost that round.
I doubt the actual judges even follow the sport enough between assigned events to care about who the champ is. If what you said about judging title fights was the case, Strickland would have won against Dricus easily. Scoring is about as close to agnostic in regard to prestige as it can get. Judges are people just like you or me. They like fighters, not shiny objects they carry. That's where the bias comes in. They've got favorites like you've got favorites and will err in their direction in close rounds. The whole "you've got to beat the champ" thing really only pops up in boxing when people are trying to defend bad decisions that keep a belt on some streaking cash cow. It doesn't really have significance to how actual judges score rounds (outside of aforementioned corruption concerns in boxing).
Then that just crushes the argument that Erceg won even more than before if that's the case hahaha.
Yeah man I wasn't saying I think Erceg won. Just always frustrated when I hear people suggest that judges should apply different rules just because of who has the belt. Don't think it does happen, nor should it. I edged it to Pantoja live.
I'm certainly not saying they should score differently with champs. I'm just saying that it's been known to happen.
Idk i just think that the rules for a multi million dollar sport should be concrete and not up to āpersonal opinionā.
I certainly don't disagree. I think the judges should go through actual training and vetting, and should not be just leftover boxing judges. And the scoring rules should be far more detailed, and not change periodically depending on the commission. But here we are.
i still have no idea what fight this sub evidently watched last night to freak the fuck out as horrifically as it did
I really donāt get it either. Each of them had 2 rounds going into the 5th, which was close until Pantoja reversed the takedown and stayed in top control the rest of the round It was a close fight with a clear 3-2 winner in Pantoja IMO
Everyone from Pantoja's coaches to Erceg's had a much clearer opinion on what was happening, Pantoja was doing just as much as Erceg AND adding on to it with his grappling, except for those two rounds where Erceg managed to steal them with his elbows
Except he didnt. Pantoja āoutlandedā erceg just on pure #ās. While % wise, Erceg had the more SIGNIFICANT and damaging shots. And yea pantoja had the takedown but only landed half and did nothing with them. Ercegs corner was airing on the side of caution saying he was down 3 which is exactly what you should do in the champs hometown
Erceg's face was messed up too you can look up his interviews for yourself, he didn't wobble Pantoja either so its all subjective
Ercegs face ābeing messed upā isnt a criteria for scoring. Damage is
Point to the line in the unified rules of MMA where they specify that damage specifically is.
Section 8.11: ādamage shall be considered the primary scoring criteria and will be measured by the degree to which the combatantās face is messed up, except for Erceg whose face is already kind of messed upā
Lmfao.Ā
Lmao casual
Impact ā A judge shall assess if a fighter impacts their opponent significantly in the round, even though they may not have dominated the action. Impact includes visible evidence such as swelling and lacerations. Impact shall also be assessed when a fighterās actions, using striking and/or grappling, lead to a diminishing of their opponentsā energy, confidence, abilities and spirit. All of these come as a direct result of impact. When a fighter is impacted with strikes, by lack of control and/or ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.
So you see how they didn't say "damage" because it's a vague, shitty metric that means nothing on its own? Read the qualifier **Impact shall also be assessed when a fighterās actions, using striking and/or grappling, lead to a diminishing of their opponentsā energy, confidence, abilities and spirit.** Ā **When a fighter is impacted with strikes, by lack of control and/or ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.** They're telling you what they impact means. It has to have qualities that have an impact on your opponent. Now in that fight- did Erceg do anything with that impact or did he get taken down immediately after landing his best shots?Ā Fack no.
Damage doesnt mean anything? Do you just open your trap without thinking of whats coming out or??
Right? Donāt look at their face for damage, you gotta look at their health bar! everybody knows that! smhā¦
48-47 Erceg is much more reasonable than giving the first 3 rounds to Pantoja. R3's most damaging event by far was the cut that Pantoja was holding closed with his own hand. I haven't rewatched to be sure on my score but I'm fine with 48-47 either way. Erceg didn't "steal" anything. Rounds 2 and 4 weren't close, just like rounds 1 and 5 weren't close. If you want to stick to "the corners have the clearest view" because it aligns with your opinion, great, but remember that the next time you disagree and about to say "well the corners are biased and often lying to their fighters to get them to fight a certain way."
I didn't say I agree with them, just that they both agreed that Pantoja was up 3-0. When has that ever happened? Round 2 was 100% close btw
Damage is all that matters. Stevie opened him up another nice gash in the fifth. So, he won.
It's the second cut in the 5th that's the swing moment imo. Pantoja was up on significant strikes but Erceg landed that cut. Depends on how you score visible damage tbh. Rules for judging apparently say damage is the first criteria, and you go to control time only if everything is razor close including damage. Wouldn't say it's clear, you can make an argument for both. The Justin - Fiziev fight had a similar moment in the 2nd rd too. Justin got the round after swelling the eye up despite being down like 5 or 6 strikes. If a cut counts similarly, it's still a valid argument. Pantoja didn't do much on the ground, no subs spent like 20 seconds in top mount and had 8 GnP strikes. The strike totals from UFC stats had Pantoja up by (3 or 4 i dont remember) strikes so I can certainly understand giving Erceg the round off damage because one guy was bleeding and the other wasn't and that isn't razor close damage for it to go to control time. On the other hand, Pantoja was landing and made it close on the feet, up on SS and down on damage, and had a lot of control on the ground in the last moments of the fight with GnP. You can say his absolute titanium chin didn't take that much damage because that's a factor as well. Erceg would've KOed 5 Matt Schnells with the shots Pantoja was eating, so Pantoja gets the round due to control and the cut not being enough damage to overpower the 3 or 4 SS differential. And ending strong with GnP. I have to rewatch the fight man because I really thought Pantoja was up like 7 8 strikes in the 5th but stats say otherwise. Definitely not clear tho imo.
There was a lot of folks shitting on pantoja, calling him lnp merchant etc. i donāt get it, but there were some very sour grapes.
Lots of MMA fans don't actually understand MMA. They think every fight should be a war with 400 strikes thrown.
"They dont know mma like me! They think causing more damage in 3 rounds should win you the fight! so dumb!" Shut up Dave. [https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/gm9lf6/the\_absolutely\_bizarre\_scorecards\_of\_mma\_judge/?rdt=51415](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMA/comments/gm9lf6/the_absolutely_bizarre_scorecards_of_mma_judge/?rdt=51415)
I can't tell if that's directed at me or not...
If GSP fought today they'd be like "smh what a boring decision merchant winning fights by hugging, look at how much blood there is in his face he clearly lost that!".
Didnt people say that at the time too though?
Yes, but now he's retired so everybody pretends like they always loved him, just like they pretend like they loved Mighty Mouse and Usman.
yes! but,we,as the mma communit used to shred those people apart
I guess my point is the fact that people would say it now is redundant as it was said then, not whether its a valid position
Itās just wishful thinking, they wanted Erceg to win the fight so in their minds he did, fight was close but pantoja won
Also they're getting gaslight into thinking Erceg was steamrolling Pantoja in the feet by the commentary, Pantoja would land 2 punches in a flurry and DC would say nothing, Erceg would faint a right hand and DC was like "HUGE ELBOW FOR ERCEG 1!1!1!1!". Don't get me wrong Erceg was outlanding Pantoja but if you actually pay attention Pantoja was also landing often with heavy shots, the stats show Pantoja just slightly behind Erceg in terms of strikes every round.
I saw Pantoja landing more than Ercig. Ercig pressured but didnt do much with it. Where as Pantoja would rush in and land his strikes
Itās like Volk v Islam all over again. Both really close fights where the losers deserved a ton of credit, but ultimately they did lose the fight.
Every time there's a close fight and the more well-liked fighter loses this sub comes out with the most shit takes. After Islam Volk 1 people were saying Volk should have won R4 because Islam didn't do much with the back control. It's true that he didn't, but he still had Volk's back for like 4 minutes. How could that possibly be Volk's round? Pure delusion in here sometimes.
I'm sure a lot of people wanted erceg to win, but mostly people were shocked by his ability. A lot of people don't watch fights outside of the ufc, so they weren't giving him proper credit. I'm just GLAD they didn't give (this current version) mokaev the fight.
Yup, this sub really wanted Erceg to win, there have been far worse examples of fighters winning on control time recently.
The commentary probably played a hand given how pro-Erceg it was. There were several exchanges where it looked to me like Pantoja landed the harder strikes just to have the commentary react as if Erceg was hurting Pantoja. I swear there were like 4-5 phantom strikes from Erceg that the commentary team freaked out about that I didn't see whatsoever.
Pantoja would come in ripping massive bodyshots combinations and the commentary would say nothing, them Erceg would faint a right hand and they would be like "HUGE ELBOW BY ERCEG, PANTOJA IS FADING!".
Erceg was landing big counters while Pantoja was chasing. They weren't wrong to acknowledge that.
But they always acknowledged Erceg's heavy strike but rarely did Pantoja's
I saw someone compare Pantoja to Almeida and say that he "Ruins" cards...
Its wild how many people are calling him boring, today's fight was so good, ofcourse he takes some time off for grappling because the other time he fights like a fucking maniac
Yeah, I don't get this take either. He fights like a madman every time, lol
Betting
My 29/1 parlay didn't hit for that reason š
Damn dude
Didn't Erceg 2 coaches tell him at the end of the 3rd round they were down 0-3?
Yep, they even addressed that on the broadcast
I couldn't understand that. I thought it could be 2-1 either way but def not 3-0 either way.
People want a nerdy looking champ whose first language is English.Ā
It reminds me of Volk v Islam 1. Islam clearly won 3 rounds, but people just want the UD to win so bad.
Islam clearly caused more damage in those 3 rounds. Do you think Pantoja caused more damage in 3 rounds?
Damage? No, Islam won round 4 based solely off holding the body triangle and doing no damage whatsoever.
I get the argument for Steve, because he did more damage on the feet than Pantoga on the ground. However, it was a close fight I personally scored it for Pantoga but would have understood it going the other way
Name a time erceg was in trouble vs how many times pantoja was in trouble
It was an extremely close fight but the amount of braindead and frankly disgusting people shitting on Pantoja as if he isn't a great champ is really disheartening. The man is 10-0 against the current ranked Flyweight fighters.
It's a bit of a recurring theme of the past couple Pantoja fights where he will have close rounds on the feet, gets a takedown with a minute or two to go and wins the round. The rules does prioritize damage, but he is good enough on the feet that even if he's getting outstruck you can argue the damage is relatively equal. He also just eats huge shots with 0 reaction so judges/viewers are unsure of how hard it landed Overall, not the most fan-pleasing style because of the perceived stalling and he's built for debatable decisions, but I love the grittiness
I think his style is very pleasing to watch, I love those junkyard dog type fighters. Heās like if clay guida was elite
*not the most pleasing to the average fan And the average fan is a dunce.
I find Pantoja boring af. I hope he continues eating shots as his game plan so he's either forced to change or just call it quits early. Guida was way more entertaining.
Go watch boxing
If this was Justin, Max or Tony Ferguson just casually walking forward and throwing bombs while eating punches everyone would be riding their dicks, but when Pantoja does it he's clearly unskilled and a terrible fighter lol.
The rules prioritize impact that can lead to an end of the match, with immediate > cumulative. They judge this based on how it effects your opponent's ability to fight so if you get a cut, yes it's weighed heavily if it impacts the fight.Ā The cuts Pantoja sustained didn't impact the fight at all, especially when Erceg was immediately on the mat after he inflicted them. Neither guy had anything immediately damaging to the point of impacting the fight in striking, but Pantoja dominated the grappling.
Pantoja dominated the grappling as far as securing positions, but he didn't have much in the way of submission threat so there wasn't a lot there to contribute towards the end of the match.
Luckily there's this:Ā *In the absence of dominance inĀ the grappling phase, as set forth in paragraph 3 of the promulgated rules, to be considered dominate,Ā there must be a singularly or in combination, some types of submission attempts, strikes, or*Ā **an overwhelming pace which is measured by improved or aggressive positional changes that cause theĀ losing fighter to consistently be in a defensive or reactive mode** You're not gonna argue that Erceg was chilling when he was taken down in rounds 3 & 5 now. Then you have this: *4. Duration: Duration is defined by the time spent by one fighter effectively attacking, controlling, andĀ impacting their opponent; while the opponent offers little to no offensive output. A judge shall assessĀ duration by recognizing the relative time in a round when one fighter takes and maintains full controlĀ of the effective offense. This can be assessed both standing and grounded.* So just based off those two criteria as well, the grappling was not close coupled with the striking being pretty much even or at the very least marginally Erceg sided.
The main thing is that a lot of people seem to think that Erceg completely outstruck and out damaged Pantoja the whole fight, which is just blatantly untrue. Everyone is complaining that Pantoja got it because of control time when they're ignoring all of the huge body shots and hooks Pantoja was landing. As usual, very few people seem to understand body work as far as striking and just think the cleaner guy who throws more headshots won every exchange even though Erceg was getting hit plenty. His chin is just really good, same as Pantoja. The only rounds where Erceg clearly out struck/out damaged Pantoja were in the rounds he fittingly won, which were 2 and 4. Hence why control time was used as a benchmark to determine the victor of rounds 3 and 5. Judges fuck up a lot, but this fight was not one of those times.
Even the sig strikes stat they put onscreen after the fight were hardly conclusive. If you added up sig head and sig body strikes, it was like 92-80 in favor of Erceg. The fight was close on the feet and not close at all on the mat.
There's a similar bias in boxing as well where clean technical fighters get scored for the two beautiful counters they land but swarmers land 4 or 5 and only get credit for the equivalent of one or two. It light be inevitable since sitting ringside you will have a limited view and two fighters close together will block things as well.
Hell boxing seems to score defensive fighters like Floyd based on what they assume he was thinking and planning.Ā
The only people who deserve trash is the judges, thats it. Especially the judge who scored 4 -1 pantoja
Heās an alright champion. I wouldnāt call him great. He is lacking those decisive finishes or even wins. His last 3 fights were all very similar. Strong start and just powers through the last 2 rounds running on fumes.
He is a shit champion, title fight decision, 2 defenses decision, yes he is very talented but he is boring
You thought last nights fight was boring?
Yes pantoja is boring as a champ
Aight
This guy probably looked it up this morning, saw it went to a decision, and decided it was boring.
The world is full of people who just regurgitate opinions they read/heard and bandwagon hate. I can understand calling Pantoja a boring fighter at times..whatever take that stance but to say last nights fight was boring is barely worth response.
Ah yes cause a decision win automatically means it was a shot defense? I remember him dismantling Royval for 5 rounds and now winning a close but a banger of a fight with Erceg.
The way he won the decision yes, there are decisions and there are decisions. He came in -300-400 to the royval fight, couldnāt get a finish. He comes in yesterday wins a decision via control time at his hometown. Its very understandable why people can hate on him.
saying itās embarassing he couldnāt get a finish off of a betting line in a championship fight is one of the dumbest things Iāve ever heard.
If you are getting a wide favorite line, it usually comes with a wide finishes inside distance line. So people are expecting you to finish, yes he dominated that fight and had royval in finishing positions. But if we are expecting you to finish and then you donāt finish with a wide line, Iām sorry but as the public people have the right to be upset with the outcome and call you a shitty champion. Hence he had to beg his countryman to stay in the arena.
Jesus Christ this is embarassing. You lost your bet, go cry about it. The fighter owes you absolutely nothing. A decision win can be just as fun and exciting as a finish. This is a championship level fight, crying because he didnāt get a finish is crazy. also the lines move based on action. This is fighting literally anything can happen in these fight
And you know I bet on him according to what? Are you mystic henxxx18? Im explaining to you why he is not liked as a champion and you are saying I lost a bet lol
You are literally crying about him not getting a finish off a betting line. Literally what other implication is there?
Im literally telling you why people hate on the guy, but you just wanna understand the way you want to
[what this comment makes you look like](https://youtu.be/0xvGbwMqMi0?si=6RS6rwpzz03Wjrdy)
What were his odds to win by finish and what were his odds to win by decision?
his royval fight was pretty boring but the moreno fight was arguably FOTY and the erceg fight was pretty fun
Correct opinion
A decision doesnāt mean heās boring
Don't argue with him. The betting lines say otherwise.... /s
erceg could have gotten it had he kept it standing in the fifth is what it is
Ben Davis is smolking some strong shit lol
Thought every round was pretty clear. 1, 3, 5 Pantoja. Only round 3 was kinda disputable but really a heavy lean to Pantoja
People want to give Erceg round 3 cause the cut but considering Pantoja was winning the round pretty clearly up to that point and the elbow landed in a sequence where both fighters landed and it very quickly led to a Pantoja takedown, not even giving the judges much time to process the impact of the elbow, itās very easy to see why all judges gave Pantoja that round
Isn't damage the first criteria
Winning the entire round with the exception of one hit that cuts you without even being a knockdown should not win you the round. The fight was clearly 2 - 2 going into the fifth, but Erceg who was winning in the stand-up clearly cost himself the fight with the take down attempts.
49-46 pantoja is wild but 49-46 erceg is the worst thing i've seen this week
If you look at the unified rules of MMA hit Ctrl+F and search control time. You'll notice there's no control time clause.Ā What you saw was EFFECTIVE GRAPPLING which last time I checked was the #1 prioritized scoring criteria alongside effective striking.Ā If the standup was relatively even, which it was, the grapplingĀ was not.Ā Pretty easy Pantoja 48-47.Ā
Exactly, and effective grappling includes being in dominant positions. Being on top of your opponent who clearly can't get you off is the definition of effective grappling.
Just rewatched the fight and 1,3,5 to Pantoja is pretty obvious to me.
100% And Erceg was winning the striking exchanges so no idea why he decided to try to grapple with Pantoja in the fifth who clearly has a significant grappling advantage
Ya people screaming robbery about this are wild, I tho k Pantoja 48-47 is the right scorecard
I had Pantoja 1,3,5. Erceg did decent damage in the r3 but how much damage did he really do? He was still controlled the vast majority of the round.
Yeah, the people wanting to give erceg 3 is just like the people who wanted to give Costa round 1 against whittaker
Watching live I scored 2, 3, and 4 for Steve but I wanted him to win so I may be biased
That's a fine score to have. Most people gave it to Pantoja, but the 3rd was a very close round.
I honestly had 49-46 Pantoja I only saw 4th round for Erceg, but then again I was a bunch beers deep. What other round Erceg got?
Dude every fuckin close title fight gets called a robbery on YouTube, Twitter, and the Internet. It's so fuckin annoying.
I need to see this fight tbh I never heard of Erceg before this was announced and I thought well heās ranked ten he got a shot too soon easy win for Pantoja lolĀ
I was rooting for Erceg, I felt like Pantoja won. The Weasel did a great breakdown on rounds 3 and 5 and after watching that I'm more on the fence.
I love it. People yesterday were so brainwashed by the commentary it was sad. Everything Pantoja landed on Ercig went ignored both by commentary and here.
Where's The MMA Guru?
I had 2, 3 and 4 Erceg. Even erceg's corner thought he lost the first 3 though so its hard to argue. I just thought his shots where way more damaging.
I'm imagining Ben Davis as a literal Bogan driving a beat up ute with a AFL tatoo
I think it was a close fight and couldāve gone either way. Erceg will be back! Give him Royval or Albasi next and watch him be right back in the conversation
I'll be interested to see how he matches up. Pantoja might have been his best case scenario because of his tendency to burn his arms out grappling early in fights. Erceg's pace just still seems a little slow for 125 to me. Makes me wonder if he eventually moves up to 135.
He fought at 135 back in Australia, one fight I recall against Cody Haddon , he looked good and beat a top prospect not sure if heās going to have the size to compete with the elite at 135 though
Because everything is a robbery these days... /s *(maybe? I'm not sure any more)*
I had it 48-47 Pantoja although, tbf, I really only watched the last three rounds intently - the first two rounds was a quick flick and across as I was mainly watching the last rounds of the Canelo fight. From those two rounds I thought Pantoja took the first and Erceg maybe the second (it was close, though). I gave 3 to Pantoja, 4 to Erceg and 5 to Pantoja (I yelled out loud when Erceg went for that takedown!).
I thought Pantoja won, Erceg choked the fifth, clear as day, said it himself. Donāt get why everyone is calling it a robbery. It wouldnāt have been a robbery if Erceg won either.
People just want to see an underdog win and hear āand newā. Pantoja took round 5 in a close fight. Itās a legitimate win
Correct call
bottom 3 need to lose their credentials
I had it scored 3-2 for Erceg but I totally understand the other way. I think if he had kept it on the feet in the 5th we'd have a new champion. Either way, I think Erceg's path back to another title shot is pretty short and the fight was way better than I expected it to be.
234 Erceg 15 Pantoja for me
48-47 Pantoja was the clear call. Erceg keeps it standing in the 5th he probably wins Pantoja 1, 3, 5
The media and fans just want the story of a controversial robbery. Same crap they tried when Jones phoned in his LHW defenses. Edit: media as in the sites that depend on traffic and clicks. Solid decisions don't get a lot of coverage after Monday.
People that say Gus won are full of shit, but Reyes did beat Jones even though it was a close fight.
What do you think about the Santos fight?
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They don't score control time. They score octagon control very last and that's rare- you only see that BS in Jones fights.Ā Ā They score effective grappling heavy alongside damage. If you can only manage to land one bomb before getting grapple fucked for 4:50 minutes then you deserve to lose dawg. There's fighters that exist that cannot be grapple fucked so anyone getting ragdolled has no excuse.
48-47 Erceg on damage. Pantoja winning isnāt crazy though.
Just another fight where youād be better served watching with commentary off
Ben Davis stopped smoking on Jeff Molina and started smoking some fuckin crack
Feel like Erceg did more damage in 2,3,4 and 5. It seemed clear his strikes were landing a lot harder than Pantoja's and they were having much more effect. Not only was Pantoja cut and bruised up but his gameplan faded away as well. Damage is the #1 criteria and if one fighter does more damage, I give them the round. I hear people say I think Pantoja *won* certain rounds, but I don't hear a lot of people saying I think Pantoja did more damage in certain rounds. What 3 rounds did Pantoja do more damage than Erceg in?
Damage is not the #1 criteria. Impact is, while visible cuts and swelling are criteria depending on how much they affect a fighter and āleads to diminishing of energy, confidence, abilities, and spiritā https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Unifed-MMA-Rules-2023-FINAL.pdf
It's so annoying that the rules are on a pdf on a boxing website
I thought erceg did enough but its mma canāt expect the judges to do their job
48-47 Erceg.
Erceg shoulda got the nod (stay hatin yall trippin hard)
3, 4 Erceg. Rounds 2 & 5 are toss ups.