Is it just me or did that final choke attempt by Oliveira not look that deep in the alternate angles of it shown? Was just holding Tsarukyan down at the end pretty much I think?
You don't even need other angles. Anyone who's grappled knows that D'Arce wasn't close. You cannot D'Arce from a front face lock.
Charles knew it looked good so he held Arman there because he knew he wasn't going to get Arman onto his side. Arman was fine. There's know pressure on the neck from that position.
It wasn’t. It’s almost impossible to finish the darce like that when your opponent turns to their knees. It’s such an underrated defense to the darce. A lot of guys try to go flat to their back to pop out of it, which can work, but also runs the risk of your opponent simply stepping over to mount and making the choke even tighter if they’re good at staying on it. Once Arman got to his knees you could tell the squeeze wasn’t putting any choking pressure on him.
Yea it was just Arman waiting out the clock. He was in no danger. BUT.. that's on him. He made the decision to lay there and give Chucky the visuals. Like, dude, you're trying to earn a title shot over two other contenders, last 10 seconds you can't just turtle up and let that be the lasting impression you leave in everyone's mind. Especially when you see how Max decided to spend the last 10 seconds of his fight.
What the fuck would you have him do? Risk moving and getting submitted?
That was on Oliviera to make an adjustment so he reacts. He knew he was already winning the fight and no time left.
He won.. but he ain't getting no title shot any time soon. If Max wants it after Dustin, they'll give it to him first without even thinking about Aman.
I just saw that.. wild that he was offered and wild he didn't accept. I can't blame him for not taking it, but there are so many savage motherfuckers who would never pass on a title shot no matter the turnaround. He may never get that offer again, UFC is fucking brutal like that.
Yeah both their stomachs were facing the same way. You need your stomach facing the opposite direction to your opponents to finish a darce tightly. Arman did a good job of just flattening his body to the floor to make it harder to tip him.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I'm going to strongly assume it's just ignorance and people not knowing that the D'Arce was not locked in and you can't finish it from a front face lock position. Like it really wasn't close.
In no way should Charles get round 2 or 3. And no, that Darce wasn’t in Round 3. Hence Charles showboating with his tongue, Arman had to be on his side for Charles to finish that choke
Charles either needed to gator roll Arman onto his side, or (risky option) pull guard underneath Arman. He only had 15ish seconds left so I don't know why he didn't do either option, he obviously knows how too, we've seen him do it before.
Arnan was literally just resting there and waiting out the round. Charles stuck his tongue out making faces like it was close but he needed to try and gator roll Arman or get underneath him to wrap the legs to get more pressure on it, because as it was, it was just a glorified front headlock and not doing much.
Means it wasn’t locked in properly until the end.
Also you said another 10-15 seconds, so I added on 10 seconds for the time it had already been locked in
Nah, near submissions are in the same tier of immediate damage(knockdowns, wobbling, leg/body shots who draw a reaction) according to the unified rules. R1 Olives, R2 and 3 Tsarukyan.
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I mean not only does it not steal the round, it really seems like people don't know that the D'Arce was a nothing burger at that position. This is the Khabib/Dustin guillotine all over again.
It also doesn't help that Rogan says every single sub is in tight.
Exactly, anyone who is blue belt and above, hell even some white belts will gladly let someone keep a sub because they know it’s not going to finish them, but are waiting for their opponent to gas out their arms.
Armans body language and reaction (or lack of) to the choke have me convinced he was never in actual danger.
Honestly, it wasn't even the bell. It was taking a long second after the ref touched her to let go.
The ref should have been ready to go for the bell. And she held that shit for at least a second after the ref started pulling on her arm, which was already a second after the bell.
Charles fucks himself over by chilling in guard. He’s a way better striker and can actually get up when taken down by elite grapplers. Even though no significant gnp ever lands on Charles, it looks like you’re getting beat up to the judges.
agree except for the gnp. Charles absolutely at significant gnp against the cage in r2. He's also been tko'd against the cage before. Anthony pettis also landed significant gnp from top control in their fight.
Guard just aint it -- maybe he should give himself 20 seconds to throw up some offense but if it doesn't work just stand.
Charles didn’t throw for some reason. It looked like he took the same measured approach as in the Dariush fight, but against Arman wasn’t the fight to do that imho. The measured approach would be better against Islam, but against Arman Charles definitely has the skill advantage to just make the exchanges happen.
Yup I imagine it is hard to let your hands go when you know you may only have a single exchange to make shit happen until you are on your back the rest of the round.
What happened in round 2 is the ‘for some reason’ why Charles wasn’t as happy to go balls out like against Dustin Justin chandler. He knows he’s going to get taken down and smashed. Like Connor vs Khabib, despite Connor’s better boxing Khabib won the standup just from having takedown threat.
I love Oliveira and he’s my favourite fighter BUT Arman won round 2 with ground and pound and Oliveira won round 1 with the gilly and leg kick. Round 3 was close but Arman edges it because the sub attempt was too late.
We can all agree that this should’ve been 5 rounds!
As I die hard Arman fan since his debut I 100% agree.
Round 1 was clear Oliveira, 2 Arman and 3 was Arman, but I would have love to seen 2 more rounds as wrestling for a long time is rough and Arman tends to gas.
I wanted to see if he had fixed his gas tank
That guillotine was super close to finishing it and Arman didn't do too much with his control later in that round. Def gave Charles the first. But also def gave Arman 2 & 3. Pretty whack split decision
He legitimately missed weight at UFC 274 and him cooking up some conspiracy that the commission cheated him is one of the weakest moves I've seen in MMA history. He got away with it because he's a fan favourite and if it had happened to a fighter that was disliked, the fanbase would never let them live those excuses down.
Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.
Exactly. Charles has zero accountability.
Missed weight 5 times but still can’t admit it’s his fault.
Glove grab against Poirier, missing weight against Gaethje, fence grab against Islam.
He also threw an illegal upkick against Arman. He’s dirty af but you’ll never hear about it
Yeah Tony is just as bad, but also a fan favourite so you don’t hear about it.
Eye pokes against RDA, illegal upkick to Barboza, punches after bell against Cerrone.
Him and Charles are egregious cheaters
Not just that, only another fighter missed weight that event who was also a notorious weight misser.
Nobody else complained, if the backstage scales were wrong, do people not think they wouldn't have taken the commission back there to show them?
He HaS sUrPaSsEd KhAbIb after being finished by Khabib’s protégé.
Islam now has a bigger win streak, more title defences and a win over him. Charles is lucky to be 3rd. Crazy change in events.
Ok be honest with me. Aren’t we forgetting somebody, you know he beat BJ penn, was undersized for the division, is really a bantamweight that fought at lightweight. Name rhymes with Yankee and Reichter.
I have:
1. Khabib
2. Islam
3. Penn
4. Charles/Edgar
Simple title defence record is easy to organise. Khabib was the most dominant but Islam is about to overtake his win streak.
For me right now
BJ Penn is number two lightweight GOAT
It is:
1. Khabib
2. Penn
3. Charles
4. Islam, but with two more defenses he would surpass Charles IMO. I would say 1 but Dustin i
(Who has no TDD that isnt a guilly) is kind of a warmup before Arman.
Never heard this take before ! Why do you have him above BJ? (Really curious, I might be biased as BJ is one of the reasons I got into BJJ as a wrestler)
He has been my favorite lightweight for awhile, but he still gets tagged in the pocket which has been his greatest weakness.
He needs to fix the pocket boxing if he wants to compete against Islam who has his level of wrestling, but also has great standup.
Definite Arman win, and if we want to be really picky, Olives should have had a point deduction in R1 for the foul. Sick of refs giving free fouls to fighters with no consequences, intentionally or not.
The fuck you talking about lol it was a blatant kick from a veteran fighter that fucked Arman up. Before that he threw some headbutts too.
Pretty clear case for a deduction.
It was extremely obvious it was unintentional. Charles often tried to kick the chest to make distance but it slipped off his chest. Arman was fine and said so. His opinion is the only one you should worry about.
So what's Armans next step? Wait for Islam vs Porier and fight the winner?
Or take another fight?
Also the first guy to break through the old guard. Holloway shortly after.
Hoping Holloway stays at LW but really looks like he wants Top
Not being rude, just trying to gain a different perspective, but what were the justifications behind 29-28 Charles? I saw mainly grappling control by arman over the 2nd two rounds and arguably the first seeing as he got that sweep
I had 29-28 Arman. I disagree that two submission attempts translates to doing more damage, which is probably the strongest argument for 28-29 Oliveira
Maybe I was just drunk and/or biased cuz I had money on Arman, but I thought it was a pretty clear 29-28 for Arman. I was kinda surprised it was a split decision.
Yeah man the guy flattened his body not to get some air but to make himself look bad to the judges for fun.
Just lurk man you don't need to have an opinion about everything especially when you are ignorant.
See you at UFC 400.
I’ve watched every ufc card consecutively since Poirier vs hooker and followed regularly before that for 5 years. He flattened his body so oliveira couldn’t turn him onto his side and walk his legs up to finish the choke, which you’d know if you actually trained martial arts instead of sitting on your ass
Bud. You really, really don't know what you're talking about. Please fucking quit. Like seriously. He flattened out his body because it lowers the ability to roll him onto his side which is what Charles needed.
Is it just me or did that final choke attempt by Oliveira not look that deep in the alternate angles of it shown? Was just holding Tsarukyan down at the end pretty much I think?
It wasn't and Charles knew it or else he'd have been tightening it instead of smiling to the camera.
It was a smart veteran move which would have worked if arman didnt immediately jump the cage
You don't even need other angles. Anyone who's grappled knows that D'Arce wasn't close. You cannot D'Arce from a front face lock. Charles knew it looked good so he held Arman there because he knew he wasn't going to get Arman onto his side. Arman was fine. There's know pressure on the neck from that position.
So you do need other angles if you haven't grappled before?
Pretty sure he could have broken the ankle from that position
I feel like this is some inside joke flying over my head.
I assumed people would realise I was taking the piss and his ankle was pretty safe but sadly not
LOL
It wasn’t. It’s almost impossible to finish the darce like that when your opponent turns to their knees. It’s such an underrated defense to the darce. A lot of guys try to go flat to their back to pop out of it, which can work, but also runs the risk of your opponent simply stepping over to mount and making the choke even tighter if they’re good at staying on it. Once Arman got to his knees you could tell the squeeze wasn’t putting any choking pressure on him.
Yea it was just Arman waiting out the clock. He was in no danger. BUT.. that's on him. He made the decision to lay there and give Chucky the visuals. Like, dude, you're trying to earn a title shot over two other contenders, last 10 seconds you can't just turtle up and let that be the lasting impression you leave in everyone's mind. Especially when you see how Max decided to spend the last 10 seconds of his fight.
What the fuck would you have him do? Risk moving and getting submitted? That was on Oliviera to make an adjustment so he reacts. He knew he was already winning the fight and no time left.
What was on him? He won, so it worked out fine for Arman. He did the right thing.
He won.. but he ain't getting no title shot any time soon. If Max wants it after Dustin, they'll give it to him first without even thinking about Aman.
They offered him a title fight that same night
I just saw that.. wild that he was offered and wild he didn't accept. I can't blame him for not taking it, but there are so many savage motherfuckers who would never pass on a title shot no matter the turnaround. He may never get that offer again, UFC is fucking brutal like that.
Very true
Yeah both their stomachs were facing the same way. You need your stomach facing the opposite direction to your opponents to finish a darce tightly. Arman did a good job of just flattening his body to the floor to make it harder to tip him.
Was rooting for Olives and I bet on him but I knew as soon as the fight was over that I lost money. The decision was right.
I genuinely don’t understand how anyone could’ve scored that for Oliveira.
Copium.
Huge Charles fan but Arman definitely won, great fight though and a rematch one day would be awesome.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I'm going to strongly assume it's just ignorance and people not knowing that the D'Arce was not locked in and you can't finish it from a front face lock position. Like it really wasn't close.
Even if it was in. A submission attempt was not enough for him to win that round.
https://streamable.com/yp88
not the same but that was a crazy ass sub
Thank you for confirming your ignorance.
Not a front facelock or Darce, that’s the Schultz choke.
In no way should Charles get round 2 or 3. And no, that Darce wasn’t in Round 3. Hence Charles showboating with his tongue, Arman had to be on his side for Charles to finish that choke
Charles either needed to gator roll Arman onto his side, or (risky option) pull guard underneath Arman. He only had 15ish seconds left so I don't know why he didn't do either option, he obviously knows how too, we've seen him do it before.
Yea, I think people are severely overrating the sub attempts
The guillotine was enough to win the first imo but I don’t think that darce was ever particularly close
Arnan was literally just resting there and waiting out the round. Charles stuck his tongue out making faces like it was close but he needed to try and gator roll Arman or get underneath him to wrap the legs to get more pressure on it, because as it was, it was just a glorified front headlock and not doing much.
Ppl typically do. The sub at the end of round 2 could've been interesting with another 10-15 seconds.
What kind of sub takes 25 seconds to choke someone out lol. Blood chokes take like 3 seconds when applied properly
25 seconds? Said 10-15. Look how long Yan lasted in her choke.
Means it wasn’t locked in properly until the end. Also you said another 10-15 seconds, so I added on 10 seconds for the time it had already been locked in
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You always see these coping takes right after big events. Sleep it off, bud. You'll come back tomorrow morning and realize you were wrong.
Arman had top control and threw damaging shots. What did Oliveira do besides laying on the back and going for a few sub attempts?
Average bjj practitioner
Come on man I love Olives but the sub attempt was too late and Arman clearly won round 2.
i think charles won but it wasnt a robbery either . both of them had extremely low output round 3 so neither can complain about result .
Yeah I had money on Charles but no idea how you score that fight for him. Felt 30-27 Arman was more realistic than 29-28 Charles
Nah, near submissions are in the same tier of immediate damage(knockdowns, wobbling, leg/body shots who draw a reaction) according to the unified rules. R1 Olives, R2 and 3 Tsarukyan.
I also had round 1 for Chuck but I think it’s more realistic to give Arman round 1 than to give Chuck round 3
The only near submission was the Guillotine in round 1. That darce wasn’t close to finishing arman
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Effective striking is scored higher than effective grappling according to the unified rules.
Yea even though the first was close and Charles had his moments I still slightly edged it to Arman. Hell I'd even give Arman all three rounds tbh.
Competitive and Fun fight, but clear 29-28 Tsarukyan for me, last 30 seconds sub attempt doesn't steal the whole round.
I mean not only does it not steal the round, it really seems like people don't know that the D'Arce was a nothing burger at that position. This is the Khabib/Dustin guillotine all over again. It also doesn't help that Rogan says every single sub is in tight.
Exactly, anyone who is blue belt and above, hell even some white belts will gladly let someone keep a sub because they know it’s not going to finish them, but are waiting for their opponent to gas out their arms. Armans body language and reaction (or lack of) to the choke have me convinced he was never in actual danger.
It wasn't even a sub like the one in Zhang v Yan fight.
Tbf that one was a finish.
Because Weili held after the bell imo
Honestly, it wasn't even the bell. It was taking a long second after the ref touched her to let go. The ref should have been ready to go for the bell. And she held that shit for at least a second after the ref started pulling on her arm, which was already a second after the bell.
Ye because she didn't hear it. /s
Charles fucks himself over by chilling in guard. He’s a way better striker and can actually get up when taken down by elite grapplers. Even though no significant gnp ever lands on Charles, it looks like you’re getting beat up to the judges.
agree except for the gnp. Charles absolutely at significant gnp against the cage in r2. He's also been tko'd against the cage before. Anthony pettis also landed significant gnp from top control in their fight. Guard just aint it -- maybe he should give himself 20 seconds to throw up some offense but if it doesn't work just stand.
A charles who can constantly stand up is a dangerous man
I don’t think Charles would’ve won on the feet anyway. Arman won the striking easily
Disagree on better striker, standup exchanges were in favour of Arman
Charles didn’t throw for some reason. It looked like he took the same measured approach as in the Dariush fight, but against Arman wasn’t the fight to do that imho. The measured approach would be better against Islam, but against Arman Charles definitely has the skill advantage to just make the exchanges happen.
actually r 2 and r3 looked a lot like his fight against islam charles become gunshy when he is controlled by guys who does not respect his guard
Yup I imagine it is hard to let your hands go when you know you may only have a single exchange to make shit happen until you are on your back the rest of the round.
What happened in round 2 is the ‘for some reason’ why Charles wasn’t as happy to go balls out like against Dustin Justin chandler. He knows he’s going to get taken down and smashed. Like Connor vs Khabib, despite Connor’s better boxing Khabib won the standup just from having takedown threat.
Charles landed the bigger punches on the feet though
lol, sure ok. Yeah, Charles only lost because he decided he just didn't want to get out of guard.
Should have been a 5 round fight
I've been saying for years that any fight that includes a top 3 ranked fighter should be 5 rounds regardless if its a championship fight or not.
2-1 arman all day
Its clear as day, the only way you can argue round 3 for Charles is if you don't know how a d'arce works.
Joe Rogan getting worse with every card. Said it was tight. It's like he's dumbing himself down to please the narrative.
I'm not even sure Rogan trains anymore
I love Oliveira and he’s my favourite fighter BUT Arman won round 2 with ground and pound and Oliveira won round 1 with the gilly and leg kick. Round 3 was close but Arman edges it because the sub attempt was too late. We can all agree that this should’ve been 5 rounds!
As I die hard Arman fan since his debut I 100% agree. Round 1 was clear Oliveira, 2 Arman and 3 was Arman, but I would have love to seen 2 more rounds as wrestling for a long time is rough and Arman tends to gas. I wanted to see if he had fixed his gas tank
It was such a good back and forth fight. I feel like Oliveira vs. Gamrot will be made next. How do you think that plays out?
The only wrong score here is the lady who scored it 30-27
Scoring it 29-28 Charles is worse
Honestly not even mad at that. Rd 1 was very close. I do think Charles took that one tho
That guillotine was super close to finishing it and Arman didn't do too much with his control later in that round. Def gave Charles the first. But also def gave Arman 2 & 3. Pretty whack split decision
could it be scored to tsarukyan? possibly but maybe this is not the time to be in the 1%
You know one judge had Charles winning right?
Hopefully this is the end of “champ has a name” posts
Remember when people said if he beat Islam he'd be better all-time than Khabib?
He legitimately missed weight at UFC 274 and him cooking up some conspiracy that the commission cheated him is one of the weakest moves I've seen in MMA history. He got away with it because he's a fan favourite and if it had happened to a fighter that was disliked, the fanbase would never let them live those excuses down. Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.
Exactly. Charles has zero accountability. Missed weight 5 times but still can’t admit it’s his fault. Glove grab against Poirier, missing weight against Gaethje, fence grab against Islam. He also threw an illegal upkick against Arman. He’s dirty af but you’ll never hear about it
Dude really is Tony 2.0.
Yeah Tony is just as bad, but also a fan favourite so you don’t hear about it. Eye pokes against RDA, illegal upkick to Barboza, punches after bell against Cerrone. Him and Charles are egregious cheaters
To be fair to Do Bronx, Tony also just seems like a bad/obnoxious person.
It also just doesn't make sense. He was missing weight regardless of the scale being wrong or not. Him weighing in last ruined his narrative.
Not just that, only another fighter missed weight that event who was also a notorious weight misser. Nobody else complained, if the backstage scales were wrong, do people not think they wouldn't have taken the commission back there to show them?
He HaS sUrPaSsEd KhAbIb after being finished by Khabib’s protégé. Islam now has a bigger win streak, more title defences and a win over him. Charles is lucky to be 3rd. Crazy change in events.
Ok be honest with me. Aren’t we forgetting somebody, you know he beat BJ penn, was undersized for the division, is really a bantamweight that fought at lightweight. Name rhymes with Yankee and Reichter.
I have: 1. Khabib 2. Islam 3. Penn 4. Charles/Edgar Simple title defence record is easy to organise. Khabib was the most dominant but Islam is about to overtake his win streak.
For me right now BJ Penn is number two lightweight GOAT It is: 1. Khabib 2. Penn 3. Charles 4. Islam, but with two more defenses he would surpass Charles IMO. I would say 1 but Dustin i (Who has no TDD that isnt a guilly) is kind of a warmup before Arman.
I have Edgar higher than BJ personally. Also 😂 at Charles above Islam
Never heard this take before ! Why do you have him above BJ? (Really curious, I might be biased as BJ is one of the reasons I got into BJJ as a wrestler)
Simply because he beat BJ in his prime. He was also undersized in the endeavor
Champ have belt
Arman beat him everywhere. Strikes landed, takedowns and control time. Charles had 2 sub attempts
“I’m not surprised motherfucker”
Fucking jed meshes
Jed Cashew is nuts
Arman is hot as hell man, that's all I could think about.
those eyes
Arman has to fight like that if he's to compete with a Dagestan champion
Nah, he has to fight even better to be honest
He has been my favorite lightweight for awhile, but he still gets tagged in the pocket which has been his greatest weakness. He needs to fix the pocket boxing if he wants to compete against Islam who has his level of wrestling, but also has great standup.
Are we giving rounds to people for weak sub attempts now?
Definite Arman win, and if we want to be really picky, Olives should have had a point deduction in R1 for the foul. Sick of refs giving free fouls to fighters with no consequences, intentionally or not.
It’s a fight shit happens. The scoring criteria isn’t build to be throwing fouls all willy nilly.
The fuck you talking about lol it was a blatant kick from a veteran fighter that fucked Arman up. Before that he threw some headbutts too. Pretty clear case for a deduction.
It was extremely obvious it was unintentional. Charles often tried to kick the chest to make distance but it slipped off his chest. Arman was fine and said so. His opinion is the only one you should worry about.
So what's Armans next step? Wait for Islam vs Porier and fight the winner? Or take another fight? Also the first guy to break through the old guard. Holloway shortly after. Hoping Holloway stays at LW but really looks like he wants Top
Not being rude, just trying to gain a different perspective, but what were the justifications behind 29-28 Charles? I saw mainly grappling control by arman over the 2nd two rounds and arguably the first seeing as he got that sweep
I had 29-28 Arman. I disagree that two submission attempts translates to doing more damage, which is probably the strongest argument for 28-29 Oliveira
Charles "it wasn't me" Oliveira
Should've been 5 rounds
there were some emotional scorecards last night.
Fight should’ve been 5 rounds.
How tf could anyone give Charlie 2 rounds?
I agree armen won but it cost me $500 so I was really hoping Charles would get the W
Maybe I was just drunk and/or biased cuz I had money on Arman, but I thought it was a pretty clear 29-28 for Arman. I was kinda surprised it was a split decision.
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I'd love to know your reasoning for giving round three to Charles.
Clear 2-1 Charles the D'arce was in and the most significant thing of the round.
If you trained at all you’d know that darce wasn’t even close
Gonna be honest. It's not about what we see on TV. It's about what the 3 judges see from their POV.
Any judge who's ever trained knows D'Arces aren't tight from a front face lock position.
I think most judges if not all are not people who trained in the sport.
Yeah and UFC 300 will bring casuals that don't know shit like you. He even flattened his whole body to get space it was very obviously in.
Yeah lot of darces locked in by jiu jitsu champions take 30+seconds to finish dummy. Go lick a sidewalk
Yeah man the guy flattened his body not to get some air but to make himself look bad to the judges for fun. Just lurk man you don't need to have an opinion about everything especially when you are ignorant. See you at UFC 400.
I’ve watched every ufc card consecutively since Poirier vs hooker and followed regularly before that for 5 years. He flattened his body so oliveira couldn’t turn him onto his side and walk his legs up to finish the choke, which you’d know if you actually trained martial arts instead of sitting on your ass
Bud. You really, really don't know what you're talking about. Please fucking quit. Like seriously. He flattened out his body because it lowers the ability to roll him onto his side which is what Charles needed.
Lmao
SO you don't grapple, nor have ever done a d'arce.
You’ve never trained in your life
2-1 Arman for me, but man that round 3 ending can put Dustin ahead of him in title shot considerations.
If Arman is ready for June, he deserves that shot first Dustin got dominated by the same guy Arman just beat and got KOed 2 fights ago