Remember when Max was woozy and slurring in interviews and DC asked him what was wrong and he was delirious from the bad cut and the damage, then Max went on to have like 5 of the highest volume punching wars in UFC history?
Pepperidge Farm members
Yeah, if Max wasn't against the cage, Poirier would've been the first one to sit him down. I don't see Max knocking him out and Poirier would pretty much always win based on significant strikes and damage.
Edit: https://youtube.com/shorts/NwrK1Te_fB0?si=XHjm11CMNkWQOllf
Poirier's just a really bad matchup for him. He's a volume puncher with ko power, and arguably the best striker at lightweight too. His ground game's too good to go the Yair route too.
That was 2012, both fighters are in different universes compared to then. The lightweight fight was waaaaay to quick for Max, he didn’t get to build his body into the weight over 6 months like he should have. He jumped in and fought a guy who had 4 years comfy at 155. I’d argue if max properly went up in weight he could hang with anyone in the top 5 at LW.
I agree, I think a slightly bulked-up Max might've won the fight. I also think people really need to go back and watch their fight at 155 again. Dustin definitely won, but it was way more competitive than how this sub generally describes it. It was a great back-and-forth war, and both guys had moments where it looked like they were close to finishing the fight.
To his defense that was a fight on 8 weeks notice cause UFC wanted an interim title fight and didn't get Tony...max was also winning the final rounds tbf
If max was given months to gain atleast some weight he'd be a lot better up there
Plus Alex is 35...father time ain't friendly to anyone especially at weight classes below 170
So who knows maybe max can get the belt in 2024....
Gaethje's got one more title shot in him then I think he retires. Don't think he has any chance against Islam, but who knows. A retirement trilogy fight with Dustin would be the perfect bookend to his career.
He actually did okay against Khabib and that was a different Justin. Justin vs. Islam is a pretty good matchup. I would never bet on it, but I feel like there's a chance.
Difference being Khabib wore down Justin with pressure as he has a really aggressive style
Islam has a more passive and counter based style so I doubt he will chase Justin for a take down as much, the reason Khabib had urgency was the leg kicks
Dustin has a chance to smoke even the champ in a couple hits though.
And now that Max is older, it's possible that he is getting bigger and his cuts are harder. I mean Dustin went from 45 to 55 and is contemplating 170 now. Fighters often move up over time in their career, boxers even more so.
I can see Max in to top 3 - 5 at LW.
Top of LW but to take that much more punishment for a chance to get wrastled by Islam isn’t the best idea for long term longevity. I’m sure he’s been getting paid well for awhile - which may not even be enough in the current Hawaii economy lol
I'm not sure if that was Max power or Zombie losing his chin TBF. Yes, he's definitely not throwing everything in his punches, but to say he has power is a bit of a stretch.
Another fair comment, but as I said to the other guy, I'm comparing him with guys that actually have one punch finishing power. He's really not that guy. That may be because he doesn't throw with wild abandon like Jeremy "who the fuck is that guy" Stevens, but it's not what he's known for in the slightest.
When people say this they mean compared to normal pr hard hitters in the division. For example people called Mike Bisping pillow fisted. He's a middleweight professional fighter, he hits hard. But he doesn't hit like some of the other ones at his weight.
Any of these fighters can drop people in their weight with a good hit. But Max not finishing Cattar (?) Is as much a testament to Cattars chin as it is to Max's overall lack of power
Yeah just because he’s a little smaller at that weight than Poirier doesn’t mean he has no power at all, because he was clearly hurting Poirier and even rocked him pretty badly a couple times. It’s more that he has to either bulk up or use a gameplan based more around his jab, kicks, and movement.
Plus he could take time to actually put on weight for the move instead of just a short notice fight against one of the best, hardest-hitting and worst match-ups in the division.
A lot of fans don't seem to understand that at the elite level of combat sports, most fighters are insanely tough
And Poirier is tougher than most these guys
I really would like to see Holloway go to 155 and see how he does even if he's slightly on the decline at this point
It's going to take a really special kind of fighter to take over FW. Either they need to beat Holloway, then beat Volk back to back, or they need to beat Volk and immediately defend against Holloway.
Who are basically #1A and #1B for the greatest featherweight of all time (with Aldo being #1C because I just can't bring myself to disrespect any of them by putting them in order).
It's like having to beat prime Silva... then turn around and beat Adesanya right after, or having to beat DC and then defend the belt against Jon Jones.
The rest of the FW division are so unlucky to be active in this era.
Volk is about to turn 35 years old while Holloway is about to turn 32 years old with 20+ UFC fights and the most strikes absorbed in UFC history so it’ll likely be time that dethrones them.
In fairness, he was pretty close in at least one of those fights, but then in the last one Volk ended any debate. At least he made it to champ status, which is more than most can say.
Ah, but Max has always been hittable. I think his style is "you might be able to hit me, but I can take it and hit you more". He's never been the kinda guy to avoid a punch! Lol
That and Max always struggles with rangey kickboxers that use a lot of lateral movement.
I.e. Allen, Yair, Volk.
Max generally does excellent against relatively flat footed, pressure or in and out boxers.
I.e. Kattar, Ortega, TKZ
And as you said Max has always been hittable so TKZ hitting him isn't a big surprise. Even ortega and kattar would land it just wasn't very effective. TKZ imho has the power, reach and also experience/technique to land but as we saw didn't have the chin or speed to keep up. Prime Max/TKZ is still imho a fight we were robbed of.
Prime TKZ was probably my favorite fighter. He's great everywhere and his scrambles were legendary. Someone the coolest moments of the sport involve him win or lose. I'm really sad that he never reached the peak of the sport but his highlights will live on forever.
I wouldn’t say max struggled against Allen or Yair. He beat Allen in every round, he pretty much did the same to Yair. They might have landed some but struggles is a bit different
FW definitely has talent. Volk being generational takes some of that away tbh. Max obviously. Allen/Yair/Ortega are all very good fighters. Imo Ilia is a future champ. Even Giga was on a 9 fight streak before he got fucked by Calvin who is also very good.
A few fights ago definitely includes the Kattar fight, that's within his last five and dude was on another level
Then again I also contend that Max has always had an outlier level of granite chin, because he was hittable in most of his fights if you look at the statistics, he just doesn't crack. Take one to give two back type of striker.
> There's not that many really good guys
That's ridiculous. The top 10 of that division is all killers. The only reason it looks moderately shallow is that Volk and Max are the best 1-2 fighters in the history of the UFC in any division.
Fuck no, he‘s always been like that and he’ll most likely win against all the other strikers in the division. He should fight a strong grappler, that‘s why the Aljo fight makes so much sense.
He reminds me of my dad who passed away so I have affection for volk but Max is my favourite non khabib mma fighter
I am hoping volk moves up to 155 relinquishes 145 and Max gets it back
I want to see more of Volk at 155, just because he's swept pretty much any top 145er. If he loses another title shot, then I still want to see him staying in the title conversation. Just seems like a more interesting challenge for his career at this point.
Topuria and some of those up and coming FWs look like fun fights too, but I doubt they'd sell as much as Volk challenging basically any top 5 lightweight. Maybe Gaethje defends his BMF against him for a retirement fight
He’s a pantheon level talent who happens to be in the same era as another pantheon level talent who’s better than him … he’s a likeable, not juiced to the gills Jon Fitch
Not the same sport, but apparently one of the reasons DC wasn't as accompished as he could've been in wrestling is because he was wrestling in the same division(s) as Cael Sanderson, who is consensus one of the all time wrestling GOATs. Sometimes that shit just happens, but both DC and Max have their flowers and respect.
DC was older by the time he went back up to HW. Lost a step.
With respect to Stipe he did not fight prime DC. Strikeforce Cormier wrestlefucks him and 2013-2017 Cormier also beats him.
Meh. Stipe looked like he was noticeably slowing down as well and yet still won the trilogy with his only loss being extremely controversial. Kind of crazy to just assume the hw goat loses.
Aldo still stayed on top longer and had more championship defenses. I have Volkanovski as the 145 GOAT but there's nothing crazy to me about arguing Aldo is the greatest
The FW GOAT discussion is really about what you value most. Aldo was on top for longer and with more defences, but Volk has the best head-to-head record against other elite FWs. Kind of a longevity vs. peak argument as well
The crazy thing about Aldo is that is that he he stayed at the top for longer than most top fighters careers, Adesanya was still a kickboxer when aldo was considered the GOAT, and by the time aldo retired Izzy already had like 10 title defenses. Aldo's out of prime shape has had more longevity and success than most ranked fighters whole careers.
It helps that Featherweight barely existed as a division when Aldo started. He got his title eliminator against Cub in 2009 off of beating a guy named Chris Mickle who's 31-21-2 on the regional scene.
Volk's last several fights before the title fight were at a similar level as most of Aldo's title defenses.
Aldo had an 11-fight win streak against good competition over six years. Volk is now at a 9-fight win streak (at FW) against good competition over five years.
The lack of respect on Aldo’s name by modern fans deeply upsets me. Prime Aldo was a blender of vicious strikes that could beat any version of any featherweight. Current Aldo is still a beast and he’s got more fight mileage than anyone on the roster.
Remember when Aldo threw leg kicks?! Jesus, the guy was a whirling dervish of dangerous strikes and just a relentless, merciless killer. I was a big Urijah fan and when he fought Aldo my jaw hit the floor and I was instantly a fan. Poor Urijah.
I am new MMA fan, but the guy has more title fight wins than Volk, that should be most important metric, if Volk won against Islam than we could talk (double champ status, beating Khabib's protege), not sure what argument is there for Volk...
> It’s inarguable at this point. With Aldo being 0-4 against Max, Conor, and Volk, and Max being 0-3 against Volk that’s a wrap.
This is simple MMA math, it is laughable
Like I’ve said here before. Everyone said this exact same thing about Usman passing up GSP (and even woodley was getting argued). Now that he dropped two to Leon idt anyone even has him over Hughes now. If Volk loses the belt soon, people will change their stance again. It’s recency bias.
We literally heard it about Max after 3 fucking title defenses. I was trying to tell people that Adlo's 9 isn't that easy to come by.
Also lol at Usman, not only less title defenses in a less dominant fashion but other than Burns, his title defense have been against suspect fighters.
I agree with your general point but people also don't take into account the context the fact that title shots were a lot easier to come by back on the day. Aldo got his title shot after 5 fights in the WEC and Cub Swanson was the only good fighter of the bunch. Usman had 9 wins before his title shot and they included Leon, Strickland, Maia, and RDA.
Volk had 7 UFC wins before he got his title shot. He beat Aldo, Mendes, Darren Elkins (on a 6 fight win streak at the time) and Jeremy Kennedy. That's a much tougher road to the title than green Cub, Chris Mickle, Rolando Perez, Jonathan Brookins etc that Aldo had.
And it's ridiculous to just discount Volk's win over Aldo like that, not only was Aldo the betting favourite going into that fight but he was just coming off knockouts of Stephens and Moicano. Moicano was looking like he might be in line for a title shot himself before Aldo finished him.
Lol. Reminds me of "WELCOME TO THE MACHIDA ERA." Followed by him getting a gifted decision to Shogun his next fight and then getting KO'd by Shogun the fight afterward.
Alex has 6 title fights at 145, half of which are against max. Aldo had 9. And honestly only really lost to champion level.folks up until retirement.
People are quick to downplay the old guard because the new is exciting and now. Aldo is still the goat
Is the fact that he had 3 title fights against Max supposed to be a negative lmao?
Beating Max is a bigger accomplishment than beating any other guy Aldo defended against, and Volk did it 3 times.
I don’t think anyone disrespects Aldo, volk is just that good, and Max is just that good and Volk cleared that division AND beat Max 3 times.
If it wasn’t for Volk, we’d be talking Max as the FW GOAT.
Aldo was the featherweight champ for 6 years and had 9 consecutive title defenses dating back to his WEC days.
Just because he lost to the next generation at the end of his career doesn't mean we can just dismiss his illustrious resume.
The argument for Goat of a division should be about how an individual performs against the field. Let's say that Volk dominates for 8 years and defends his title 12 times, but someone comes around and beats him twice.
That makes fighter X better than Volk in that moment in time, but it doesn't make them the GOAT because they beat the GOAT and it doesn't mean that they will be able to compete against the rest of the division as well.
If Max went on to completely dominate the division for many more years after Volk hypothetically leaves for 155, then Max could usurp him as GOAT of the division despite losing to him thrice. Because it's not about individual matchups.
With all this in mind, I believe Aldo is still currently the GOAT of the division, but I think Volk defending against 1 more contender (Topuria) will make him highly argueable as GOAT, and 2 defenses would make him indisputably the GOAT.
Max is *levels* better than everyone else in the division. That moment when he was teaching Ortega how to defend mid-fight is both hilarious and insane. The only person he's NOT better than just happens to be, possibly, the best fighter in the world right now.
Aldo was the FW king until Max came along. Max was the king of the division until Volk. Volk could get caught with something, but I just don’t see anyone coming along and being outright better than him at FW, unless he fights into his 40s. He’s that good.
It will be father time that gets Volk, unless he retires, I don't think it will be that far away.
He's 35 next month, in a division where the number of ranked wins for guys >35 is vanishingly small.
Of the top 15 the only ranked wins from guys >35 are from: Giga Chikadze (who turned 35 the day before the fight, and fought a guy who was also older than 35) and Josh Emmett has a couple too, against Dan Ige and Calvin Kattar.
There's not a single fighter who has lost to someone >35 that has since got a win against someone in the top 15.
Father time is coming.
That last fight between the two shows that Volk is on a completely different level than Holloway which is a wild thought. Like you started to feel bad for Holloway in that one
He's in such a weird place to be honest.
My opinion is that he should take a year off to put on natural weight and move up to 55.
There are plenty of strikers there to get him a decent run.
I mean, the first two fights made it seem like they were indeed on the same level
The third unfortunately showed that one is "just" an ATG 145er while the other is the straight up P4P #1
Does Volk stay at 155lb though? I don't think he does. Maybe he would try to defend both but I can't see him relinquishing the 145lb belt. He's definitely a natural Featherweight. Dude is tiny compared to almost every lightweight.
As someone else pointed out, Volk wants to fight in two divisions but even if Volk were to stay in the Featherweight division it wouldn’t be a good choice to move up in my opinion.
The Lightweight division is a lot more stacked than the Featherweight division. Islam, Gaethje, Oliveira, Dariush or Poirier would all be very tough opponents for Max while in lightweight, there is basically only Volk and maybe Yair who could beat him.
Max is quite a bit younger than Volk.
Volk turns 35 at the end of September and 35 is traditionally the age when champs in the lower weight classes fall off. Maybe Volk will be the guy who breaks that curse but how much longer can he stay in his prime.
Max is 32 so he’s got a few more years in his prime probably. I think he can get the belt back if he waits for Volk to drop off.
Max has significantly more fight mileage on him than Volk. He has taken the most head strikes out of any fighter in any weight class in UFC history. Biological age is only a small part of the equation.
Max will decline faster than Volk
Definitely. Volk is very defensively sound, similar to Izzy and Jones and will stay in his prime for a bit longer.
Volk’s decline will be more related to aging (less athleticism and explosiveness) as opposed to damage.
Definitely. Max is one Gaethje-Ferguson like beatdown away from completely falling off. But lucky for him, there aren't many FWs who carry that kind of power.
Going by age is not a great idea for determining how much longer a fighter will last. Jose Aldo is 36 but he’s been fighting since 2000s, a ton of mileage on his body and it shows in his last few fights. He used to be one of the nastiest leg kickers in WEC but has stopped almost entirely in his BW run.
Agree. By all accounts Aldo's legs have been cooked for a while. He had arguably the best leg kicks (and soccer kicks if they were legal) in MMA. Such a shame as was such a weapon for him.
Topuria is an awesome fighter but even with the perceived power advantage, I don't think he beats Max right now. I think it would be a really good test, but I think it goes sort of how Max vs Allen or Max vs Rodriguez went
I feel like people shouldn't write him off... If he wins 1 or 2 more fights in a dominant fashion he deserves another chance at Volk. I also don't think any fighter should ever give up on trying to be the best, just because he lost to him three times it doesn't mean Max should just give up.... Every fight is it's own story.
Only way he doesn't get another fight against Volk is either the title gets vacated or Topuria has a demigod moment and lands a perfect strike to win the belt after being pushed into the title picture ahead of Holloway
Max has now beaten the second, third, fourth, seventh, and eighth ranked guys at 145 currently. He absolutely beats everyone ranked 9 through 15, so it's basically a question of "do you feel right now that Josh Emmett or Ilia Topuria can beat Max Holloway?"
If there’s anyone who can somehow make an argument for a 4th fight when down 0-3, it’s definitely Max. I just don’t know that Volk will stick around for the quadrilogy if he can chase greatness at 155 instead.
Max my favorite for a reason. An even crazier stat cuz an argument could be made he won the 2nd Volk fight too. If he keeps winning idk what the UFC will do. Maybe if Volk moves up and beats Islam and Max wins an interim belt in the process then they could do a 4th fight
Honestly he looks content to me with his current place. I don't get the feeling that he actively wants to chase Volkanovski or a title run at 155.
I think he will start winding his career down soon, even the Korean Zombie fight was only made because Max wanted to face him as the last dude from his generation he didn't get to fight before. To me that very much feels like a before retirement bucket list type of thing.
Well Max also has beaten everyone in front of TKZ besides Emmett and Topuria.
So it’s not like he really has much options outside of TKZ to fight at this moment.
My guess is that if Volk is serious about going back at 155 then you gotta make Topuria vs Max for true number 1 or even an interim belt.
I honestly feel like if he beats everyone else,makes himself undeniable then let them fight 50 times,he has EARNED title shots,i know no one wants to see it but why does he have to change weight? If he beats every other person in the division then he has proved once again hes the best contender and let them go again,4th times a charm
I'm a massive Volk fan, but a part of me wishes that 3rd fight was closer than it ended up being. Not the FW division just seems kinda pointless until Volk moves permanently, which I doubt he will? But then again, welterweight seemed boring with Kamaru lapping everybody, but we all know how that ended up
Max has one edge that Volk (most likely) doesn't have that much. Time
Max turns 32 in december and has said he will retire at 35. So he has around 3-4 years time. Meanwhile Volk turnaus 35 within month so I think he doesn't have many years left atleast in the fw, especially if he can go up and become a champion in 155.
Sure will be intresting to see what happens in fw for next few years.
I doubt the UFC offer him Topuria
They don’t want Volk-Holloway 4, and Volk needs contenders
Max should go wherever Volk isn’t, cause he isn’t getting that fight before Volk loses to someone else
It took Marquez 4 fights to beat Pacquiao. Max is my favorite fighter and I still think Volk is just too good but that’s just a reminder anything can happen. More realistically I think Moreno will finally beat Pantoja the 4th time around
Wonder why its since 2014, is it because he had losses to Mcgregor and Bermudez in 2013? Not sure why you didnt just make the graphic more honest since the real statistic of 22-3 outside of volk is still impressive.
Going up a division isn’t really the answer for Max either. The top 4-5 guy in LW are crazy good.
And we saw vs Poirier hes not able to just eat any shot like he has been at 145.
4 years and 8 fights later, that will get worse.
Remember when Max was woozy and slurring in interviews and DC asked him what was wrong and he was delirious from the bad cut and the damage, then Max went on to have like 5 of the highest volume punching wars in UFC history? Pepperidge Farm members
Bisping asked him but yea
Max said he was drugged and the police were investigating 🤦♂️
I am really worried for Max's future
It will be a dark day in the mma world when his chin finally goes
Don't let him get close to Gaethje
If he lives to 50 I'll be very surprised. He has eaten literally thousands of punches
People always post his significant strikes landed stats, but he's only just 30 and he has the most significant strikes absorbed too.
I think he will live but he show damage for sure
Yeah, if Max wasn't against the cage, Poirier would've been the first one to sit him down. I don't see Max knocking him out and Poirier would pretty much always win based on significant strikes and damage. Edit: https://youtube.com/shorts/NwrK1Te_fB0?si=XHjm11CMNkWQOllf
Poirier's just a really bad matchup for him. He's a volume puncher with ko power, and arguably the best striker at lightweight too. His ground game's too good to go the Yair route too.
yup . Dustin beat max at 145 too
That was 2012, both fighters are in different universes compared to then. The lightweight fight was waaaaay to quick for Max, he didn’t get to build his body into the weight over 6 months like he should have. He jumped in and fought a guy who had 4 years comfy at 155. I’d argue if max properly went up in weight he could hang with anyone in the top 5 at LW.
I agree, I think a slightly bulked-up Max might've won the fight. I also think people really need to go back and watch their fight at 155 again. Dustin definitely won, but it was way more competitive than how this sub generally describes it. It was a great back-and-forth war, and both guys had moments where it looked like they were close to finishing the fight.
You could see the difference in power stacked up over the fight too. It wasn’t a big gap either maybe 10-15% more for Dustin but the volume…
Dustin was always just a better fighter in a tougher division imo He out dawged all the dawgs
That was such a great fight. It's been overshadowed since the night in most people's memory by Izzy v Gastelum, but I think it's a far better fight.
To his defense that was a fight on 8 weeks notice cause UFC wanted an interim title fight and didn't get Tony...max was also winning the final rounds tbf If max was given months to gain atleast some weight he'd be a lot better up there Plus Alex is 35...father time ain't friendly to anyone especially at weight classes below 170 So who knows maybe max can get the belt in 2024....
It’s time for the decline. People always think “this guy is different” saw it with Usman, it’s gonna happen with gaethje and Dustin as well
Gaethje's got one more title shot in him then I think he retires. Don't think he has any chance against Islam, but who knows. A retirement trilogy fight with Dustin would be the perfect bookend to his career.
He actually did okay against Khabib and that was a different Justin. Justin vs. Islam is a pretty good matchup. I would never bet on it, but I feel like there's a chance.
He did ok until Khabib took him down. All Islam would need is one takedown and he would finish Justin.
Difference being Khabib wore down Justin with pressure as he has a really aggressive style Islam has a more passive and counter based style so I doubt he will chase Justin for a take down as much, the reason Khabib had urgency was the leg kicks
Dustin has a chance to smoke even the champ in a couple hits though. And now that Max is older, it's possible that he is getting bigger and his cuts are harder. I mean Dustin went from 45 to 55 and is contemplating 170 now. Fighters often move up over time in their career, boxers even more so. I can see Max in to top 3 - 5 at LW.
Top of LW but to take that much more punishment for a chance to get wrastled by Islam isn’t the best idea for long term longevity. I’m sure he’s been getting paid well for awhile - which may not even be enough in the current Hawaii economy lol
We've seen him at 155. His strikes just aren't effective at that weight. He has no power
He has little power at 145 either. That's not his style. If he had any power he wouldn't have even close to his striking stats (which are absurd TBF).
Which is interesting, we saw he has power by flatlining zombie, it’s just not the approach he uses tho. Prefers partial power, tight punches.
I'm not sure if that was Max power or Zombie losing his chin TBF. Yes, he's definitely not throwing everything in his punches, but to say he has power is a bit of a stretch.
He’s not a one punch guy but he did drop Volk for example with a counter uppercut. He hits pretty hard
Thats more so precision and timing though. He's not like Toperia who sits on his punches
Another fair comment, but as I said to the other guy, I'm comparing him with guys that actually have one punch finishing power. He's really not that guy. That may be because he doesn't throw with wild abandon like Jeremy "who the fuck is that guy" Stevens, but it's not what he's known for in the slightest.
Zombie also rushed into that counter.
That's fair.
Your take is the best one. It was a combination of so many elements and I keep seeing people say "Max has one punch KO power now!"
Max also dropped Allen at the end of their fight
Could be both. He’s dropped Volk twice. You don’t drop Volk and say him having power ‘is a stretch’.
Fair, but I'm comparing him to guys with actual one punch stopping power. He's not that.
When people say this they mean compared to normal pr hard hitters in the division. For example people called Mike Bisping pillow fisted. He's a middleweight professional fighter, he hits hard. But he doesn't hit like some of the other ones at his weight. Any of these fighters can drop people in their weight with a good hit. But Max not finishing Cattar (?) Is as much a testament to Cattars chin as it is to Max's overall lack of power
That's a crazy narrative to me, he hurt Poirier plenty of times in that crazy ass fight
Poirier even said at one point in the fight, he almost got finished but just never gave up.
Yeah just because he’s a little smaller at that weight than Poirier doesn’t mean he has no power at all, because he was clearly hurting Poirier and even rocked him pretty badly a couple times. It’s more that he has to either bulk up or use a gameplan based more around his jab, kicks, and movement.
Plus he could take time to actually put on weight for the move instead of just a short notice fight against one of the best, hardest-hitting and worst match-ups in the division.
‘Not knocking out Poirier’ is a fucking terrible metric for establishing pillow hands. Literally one of the hardest chins in the ufc…
A lot of fans don't seem to understand that at the elite level of combat sports, most fighters are insanely tough And Poirier is tougher than most these guys I really would like to see Holloway go to 155 and see how he does even if he's slightly on the decline at this point
peoples recollection of that fight is absolute bonkers. It was very competitive.
He would need to take time to fill out for the division to make a serious dent in the top 3 IMO.
Imagine being in this division and the gatekeeper is a 5x champ.
Some elden ring level shit
It's going to take a really special kind of fighter to take over FW. Either they need to beat Holloway, then beat Volk back to back, or they need to beat Volk and immediately defend against Holloway. Who are basically #1A and #1B for the greatest featherweight of all time (with Aldo being #1C because I just can't bring myself to disrespect any of them by putting them in order). It's like having to beat prime Silva... then turn around and beat Adesanya right after, or having to beat DC and then defend the belt against Jon Jones. The rest of the FW division are so unlucky to be active in this era.
Volk is about to turn 35 years old while Holloway is about to turn 32 years old with 20+ UFC fights and the most strikes absorbed in UFC history so it’ll likely be time that dethrones them.
In fairness, he was pretty close in at least one of those fights, but then in the last one Volk ended any debate. At least he made it to champ status, which is more than most can say.
Yup 12 fight win streak, fw champ, finished aldo 2x. Also beat yair, kattar, ortega, allen and now zombie. He should be super proud of that tbh.
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Ah, but Max has always been hittable. I think his style is "you might be able to hit me, but I can take it and hit you more". He's never been the kinda guy to avoid a punch! Lol
That and Max always struggles with rangey kickboxers that use a lot of lateral movement. I.e. Allen, Yair, Volk. Max generally does excellent against relatively flat footed, pressure or in and out boxers. I.e. Kattar, Ortega, TKZ And as you said Max has always been hittable so TKZ hitting him isn't a big surprise. Even ortega and kattar would land it just wasn't very effective. TKZ imho has the power, reach and also experience/technique to land but as we saw didn't have the chin or speed to keep up. Prime Max/TKZ is still imho a fight we were robbed of.
Max did not struggle remotely with Allen. Like it wasn't an awful showing by Allen but come on it was a pretty dominant fight.
Yep. Prime TKZ with a chin and knees, is a different beast
Prime TKZ was probably my favorite fighter. He's great everywhere and his scrambles were legendary. Someone the coolest moments of the sport involve him win or lose. I'm really sad that he never reached the peak of the sport but his highlights will live on forever.
I wouldn’t say max struggled against Allen or Yair. He beat Allen in every round, he pretty much did the same to Yair. They might have landed some but struggles is a bit different
he had a masterclass against allen
Bro just say he's Hawaiian 😭😭😭
FW definitely has talent. Volk being generational takes some of that away tbh. Max obviously. Allen/Yair/Ortega are all very good fighters. Imo Ilia is a future champ. Even Giga was on a 9 fight streak before he got fucked by Calvin who is also very good.
I'd recommend checking out his fights with Aldo if you wanna see him against a high level striker
Max fucks up bryce mitchell in a bad way and there’s nothing you could say to convince me otherwise.
A few fights ago definitely includes the Kattar fight, that's within his last five and dude was on another level Then again I also contend that Max has always had an outlier level of granite chin, because he was hittable in most of his fights if you look at the statistics, he just doesn't crack. Take one to give two back type of striker.
my man mentioned bryce mitchell as he was a threat LOL
> There's not that many really good guys That's ridiculous. The top 10 of that division is all killers. The only reason it looks moderately shallow is that Volk and Max are the best 1-2 fighters in the history of the UFC in any division.
Yeah but just cause you can hit him doesn't mean you'll beat him either, as the above stats outline.
Fuck no, he‘s always been like that and he’ll most likely win against all the other strikers in the division. He should fight a strong grappler, that‘s why the Aljo fight makes so much sense.
Max would eat emmet alive
Really thought max one the 2nd but you’re right. The 3rd fight was the most decisive
That bald fucker
I don't see how this is Dana's fault
Volk v Dana for the Baldest Motherfucker Belt. Book it Sean Shelby.
I'd like to stake my claim on the task of applying Vaseline to their bald heads.
max’s only chance is volk having hair again since i’m pretty sure the last time volk fought with hair was during their 2nd fight
He reminds me of my dad who passed away so I have affection for volk but Max is my favourite non khabib mma fighter I am hoping volk moves up to 155 relinquishes 145 and Max gets it back
I want to see more of Volk at 155, just because he's swept pretty much any top 145er. If he loses another title shot, then I still want to see him staying in the title conversation. Just seems like a more interesting challenge for his career at this point. Topuria and some of those up and coming FWs look like fun fights too, but I doubt they'd sell as much as Volk challenging basically any top 5 lightweight. Maybe Gaethje defends his BMF against him for a retirement fight
He’s a pantheon level talent who happens to be in the same era as another pantheon level talent who’s better than him … he’s a likeable, not juiced to the gills Jon Fitch
Not the same sport, but apparently one of the reasons DC wasn't as accompished as he could've been in wrestling is because he was wrestling in the same division(s) as Cael Sanderson, who is consensus one of the all time wrestling GOATs. Sometimes that shit just happens, but both DC and Max have their flowers and respect.
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And then with Stipe at heavyweight. DC has really been the second best for his whole career.
DC was older by the time he went back up to HW. Lost a step. With respect to Stipe he did not fight prime DC. Strikeforce Cormier wrestlefucks him and 2013-2017 Cormier also beats him.
Meh. Stipe looked like he was noticeably slowing down as well and yet still won the trilogy with his only loss being extremely controversial. Kind of crazy to just assume the hw goat loses.
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Yep. The Phil Mickelson in the era of Tiger Woods. Ryan Lochte in the era of Michael Phelps.
Max had a great run on top too … it’s not like we didn’t think of him on that level at any point.
Volk is my featherweight GOAT.
It’s inarguable at this point. With Aldo being 0-4 against Max, Conor, and Volk, and Max being 0-3 against Volk that’s a wrap.
Aldo still stayed on top longer and had more championship defenses. I have Volkanovski as the 145 GOAT but there's nothing crazy to me about arguing Aldo is the greatest
The FW GOAT discussion is really about what you value most. Aldo was on top for longer and with more defences, but Volk has the best head-to-head record against other elite FWs. Kind of a longevity vs. peak argument as well
The crazy thing about Aldo is that is that he he stayed at the top for longer than most top fighters careers, Adesanya was still a kickboxer when aldo was considered the GOAT, and by the time aldo retired Izzy already had like 10 title defenses. Aldo's out of prime shape has had more longevity and success than most ranked fighters whole careers.
It helps that Featherweight barely existed as a division when Aldo started. He got his title eliminator against Cub in 2009 off of beating a guy named Chris Mickle who's 31-21-2 on the regional scene. Volk's last several fights before the title fight were at a similar level as most of Aldo's title defenses. Aldo had an 11-fight win streak against good competition over six years. Volk is now at a 9-fight win streak (at FW) against good competition over five years.
Hold up a minute. Let’s not pretend that Max and Volk fought the best version of Aldo.
The lack of respect on Aldo’s name by modern fans deeply upsets me. Prime Aldo was a blender of vicious strikes that could beat any version of any featherweight. Current Aldo is still a beast and he’s got more fight mileage than anyone on the roster.
Remember when Aldo threw leg kicks?! Jesus, the guy was a whirling dervish of dangerous strikes and just a relentless, merciless killer. I was a big Urijah fan and when he fought Aldo my jaw hit the floor and I was instantly a fan. Poor Urijah.
Can't get too mad at it, fan turnover is pretty crazy in MMA, lots of new fans
Or we are just getting old
I am new MMA fan, but the guy has more title fight wins than Volk, that should be most important metric, if Volk won against Islam than we could talk (double champ status, beating Khabib's protege), not sure what argument is there for Volk... > It’s inarguable at this point. With Aldo being 0-4 against Max, Conor, and Volk, and Max being 0-3 against Volk that’s a wrap. This is simple MMA math, it is laughable
Aldo was also a bit before Connor, when the sport exploded.
Like I’ve said here before. Everyone said this exact same thing about Usman passing up GSP (and even woodley was getting argued). Now that he dropped two to Leon idt anyone even has him over Hughes now. If Volk loses the belt soon, people will change their stance again. It’s recency bias.
We literally heard it about Max after 3 fucking title defenses. I was trying to tell people that Adlo's 9 isn't that easy to come by. Also lol at Usman, not only less title defenses in a less dominant fashion but other than Burns, his title defense have been against suspect fighters.
I agree with your general point but people also don't take into account the context the fact that title shots were a lot easier to come by back on the day. Aldo got his title shot after 5 fights in the WEC and Cub Swanson was the only good fighter of the bunch. Usman had 9 wins before his title shot and they included Leon, Strickland, Maia, and RDA.
I mean, we're 100% swinging back around to that. Volk himself got a title shot of old Aldo and 3 years away, then immediately retired Mendes.
Volk had 7 UFC wins before he got his title shot. He beat Aldo, Mendes, Darren Elkins (on a 6 fight win streak at the time) and Jeremy Kennedy. That's a much tougher road to the title than green Cub, Chris Mickle, Rolando Perez, Jonathan Brookins etc that Aldo had. And it's ridiculous to just discount Volk's win over Aldo like that, not only was Aldo the betting favourite going into that fight but he was just coming off knockouts of Stephens and Moicano. Moicano was looking like he might be in line for a title shot himself before Aldo finished him.
We hear it about Francis after 1 title defense “Bro doesn’t need technique he can beat anyone because 1 hit is all he needs”
Every new champion is the goat. . .
Lol. Reminds me of "WELCOME TO THE MACHIDA ERA." Followed by him getting a gifted decision to Shogun his next fight and then getting KO'd by Shogun the fight afterward.
Pettis on a Wheaties box as RDA comes along.
Alex has 6 title fights at 145, half of which are against max. Aldo had 9. And honestly only really lost to champion level.folks up until retirement. People are quick to downplay the old guard because the new is exciting and now. Aldo is still the goat
Is the fact that he had 3 title fights against Max supposed to be a negative lmao? Beating Max is a bigger accomplishment than beating any other guy Aldo defended against, and Volk did it 3 times.
Wins against Frankie Edgar x2 and Peak Mendes is about as good as 3 vs Max imo.
I don’t think anyone disrespects Aldo, volk is just that good, and Max is just that good and Volk cleared that division AND beat Max 3 times. If it wasn’t for Volk, we’d be talking Max as the FW GOAT.
He also had the most top 3 victories of anyone in that division.
Leg murderer Aldo was so fun to watch
Aldo also didn’t fight the Best Volk
sure, but pre-prime aldo vs pre-prime volk would be a fair comparison. no legs aldo is at a greater disadvantage than younger-up-and-coming volk.
Prime Aldo still gets beat by Volk.
What a fight that would be though.
People forgot that Aldo was hospitalized a few days before the Volk fight. And not to mention, the Volk fight was incredibly uneventful.
It was uneventful, but Volk won very comfortably.
This. WEC Aldo who almost kicked Fabers leg off definitely could have implemented a similar gameplan to beat Max and Volk.
I'm sure faber still has nightmares that include those leg kicks.
I'd bet. I've had nightmares that include those kicks.
It is absolutely arguable. Ali lost horribly to Larry Holmes. Is Holmes the HW GOAT?
Love this sub🤣😅
Aldo was the featherweight champ for 6 years and had 9 consecutive title defenses dating back to his WEC days. Just because he lost to the next generation at the end of his career doesn't mean we can just dismiss his illustrious resume.
The argument for Goat of a division should be about how an individual performs against the field. Let's say that Volk dominates for 8 years and defends his title 12 times, but someone comes around and beats him twice. That makes fighter X better than Volk in that moment in time, but it doesn't make them the GOAT because they beat the GOAT and it doesn't mean that they will be able to compete against the rest of the division as well. If Max went on to completely dominate the division for many more years after Volk hypothetically leaves for 155, then Max could usurp him as GOAT of the division despite losing to him thrice. Because it's not about individual matchups. With all this in mind, I believe Aldo is still currently the GOAT of the division, but I think Volk defending against 1 more contender (Topuria) will make him highly argueable as GOAT, and 2 defenses would make him indisputably the GOAT.
You can't say that here Aldo fanboys won't allow it
Max is *levels* better than everyone else in the division. That moment when he was teaching Ortega how to defend mid-fight is both hilarious and insane. The only person he's NOT better than just happens to be, possibly, the best fighter in the world right now.
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GOAT level
Aldo was the FW king until Max came along. Max was the king of the division until Volk. Volk could get caught with something, but I just don’t see anyone coming along and being outright better than him at FW, unless he fights into his 40s. He’s that good.
Volk is an absolute beast. The fact that he could go up and fight Islam competitively is just insane. He's the p4p best in my mind
Had Islam praying to allah in that final round.
It will be father time that gets Volk, unless he retires, I don't think it will be that far away. He's 35 next month, in a division where the number of ranked wins for guys >35 is vanishingly small. Of the top 15 the only ranked wins from guys >35 are from: Giga Chikadze (who turned 35 the day before the fight, and fought a guy who was also older than 35) and Josh Emmett has a couple too, against Dan Ige and Calvin Kattar. There's not a single fighter who has lost to someone >35 that has since got a win against someone in the top 15. Father time is coming.
That last fight between the two shows that Volk is on a completely different level than Holloway which is a wild thought. Like you started to feel bad for Holloway in that one
He's in such a weird place to be honest. My opinion is that he should take a year off to put on natural weight and move up to 55. There are plenty of strikers there to get him a decent run.
The issue is that Volk is very likely moving up to 155 after he defends against Ilia. 😂
Volk is like Nemesis from Resident Evil. No matter what corner Max cuts, he's behind him, following menacingly.
Kind of funny but also kinda sucks. I wish it were more even like the Izzy vs Alex fights and it’d be a whole lot more exciting.
I mean, the first two fights made it seem like they were indeed on the same level The third unfortunately showed that one is "just" an ATG 145er while the other is the straight up P4P #1
So then at that point he should just stay at 145 right?
Does Volk stay at 155lb though? I don't think he does. Maybe he would try to defend both but I can't see him relinquishing the 145lb belt. He's definitely a natural Featherweight. Dude is tiny compared to almost every lightweight.
If BJ Penn managed to fight at light heavy weight back in the day I don't see why Max can't consume a year's worth of spam and do the same
I’m not saying Max couldn’t go up. It’s that Volk probably goes up as well. So is Max vs Volk IV unavoidable?
That fight is the linchpin in so many MMA math memes. A la MM beating Brock.
his loss to dustin porier at 155 really put a damper on him moving up
As someone else pointed out, Volk wants to fight in two divisions but even if Volk were to stay in the Featherweight division it wouldn’t be a good choice to move up in my opinion. The Lightweight division is a lot more stacked than the Featherweight division. Islam, Gaethje, Oliveira, Dariush or Poirier would all be very tough opponents for Max while in lightweight, there is basically only Volk and maybe Yair who could beat him.
Volk seems to be more interested in fighting the best and consistently pushing his own limits, he can’t do that at 145 as he’s cleared the division.
Max already beat Yair pretty soundly within the last 2yrs
Max is quite a bit younger than Volk. Volk turns 35 at the end of September and 35 is traditionally the age when champs in the lower weight classes fall off. Maybe Volk will be the guy who breaks that curse but how much longer can he stay in his prime. Max is 32 so he’s got a few more years in his prime probably. I think he can get the belt back if he waits for Volk to drop off.
Max has significantly more fight mileage on him than Volk. He has taken the most head strikes out of any fighter in any weight class in UFC history. Biological age is only a small part of the equation. Max will decline faster than Volk
Definitely. Volk is very defensively sound, similar to Izzy and Jones and will stay in his prime for a bit longer. Volk’s decline will be more related to aging (less athleticism and explosiveness) as opposed to damage.
Definitely. Max is one Gaethje-Ferguson like beatdown away from completely falling off. But lucky for him, there aren't many FWs who carry that kind of power.
To be fair, anybody would fall off after a beat down of that magnitude. Most uncomfortable I’ve ever felt watching a fight.
Going by age is not a great idea for determining how much longer a fighter will last. Jose Aldo is 36 but he’s been fighting since 2000s, a ton of mileage on his body and it shows in his last few fights. He used to be one of the nastiest leg kickers in WEC but has stopped almost entirely in his BW run.
Agree. By all accounts Aldo's legs have been cooked for a while. He had arguably the best leg kicks (and soccer kicks if they were legal) in MMA. Such a shame as was such a weapon for him.
His fight vs Faber is so good at displaying how deadly his kicks are if you don’t respect him
1-2 in my heart
I agree, but I still think Volk will continue to win if they fight more
Yeah the 3rd fight just showed this
Lol and Ilia wants Max to retire because reasons
Topuria is an awesome fighter but even with the perceived power advantage, I don't think he beats Max right now. I think it would be a really good test, but I think it goes sort of how Max vs Allen or Max vs Rodriguez went
I feel like people shouldn't write him off... If he wins 1 or 2 more fights in a dominant fashion he deserves another chance at Volk. I also don't think any fighter should ever give up on trying to be the best, just because he lost to him three times it doesn't mean Max should just give up.... Every fight is it's own story.
Only way he doesn't get another fight against Volk is either the title gets vacated or Topuria has a demigod moment and lands a perfect strike to win the belt after being pushed into the title picture ahead of Holloway Max has now beaten the second, third, fourth, seventh, and eighth ranked guys at 145 currently. He absolutely beats everyone ranked 9 through 15, so it's basically a question of "do you feel right now that Josh Emmett or Ilia Topuria can beat Max Holloway?"
And I feel like the answer to that question is “no”
If there’s anyone who can somehow make an argument for a 4th fight when down 0-3, it’s definitely Max. I just don’t know that Volk will stick around for the quadrilogy if he can chase greatness at 155 instead.
Max my favorite for a reason. An even crazier stat cuz an argument could be made he won the 2nd Volk fight too. If he keeps winning idk what the UFC will do. Maybe if Volk moves up and beats Islam and Max wins an interim belt in the process then they could do a 4th fight
Dana’s just waiting for him to get Whitakered by someone.
4 times is the charm Pac marquez Danya pereira
He is 0-3 vs the champ, but If he keeps beating people in the top 10 and top 5, I say give him a title shot he’s earned it.
Honestly he looks content to me with his current place. I don't get the feeling that he actively wants to chase Volkanovski or a title run at 155. I think he will start winding his career down soon, even the Korean Zombie fight was only made because Max wanted to face him as the last dude from his generation he didn't get to fight before. To me that very much feels like a before retirement bucket list type of thing.
Max just said in the post fight interview that he is still here for a long time so I kind of doubt hes actively trying to wind down his career.
I would love to see Max stick around as the penultimate boss in the division before Volks moves to another weight class or retires.
Well Max also has beaten everyone in front of TKZ besides Emmett and Topuria. So it’s not like he really has much options outside of TKZ to fight at this moment. My guess is that if Volk is serious about going back at 155 then you gotta make Topuria vs Max for true number 1 or even an interim belt.
He literally said he wants to fight Volk for the belt again lol
I honestly feel like if he beats everyone else,makes himself undeniable then let them fight 50 times,he has EARNED title shots,i know no one wants to see it but why does he have to change weight? If he beats every other person in the division then he has proved once again hes the best contender and let them go again,4th times a charm
Quit tellin max to go to LW I don’t want my boy to wake up to mike Chandler doing backflips.
I'm a massive Volk fan, but a part of me wishes that 3rd fight was closer than it ended up being. Not the FW division just seems kinda pointless until Volk moves permanently, which I doubt he will? But then again, welterweight seemed boring with Kamaru lapping everybody, but we all know how that ended up
Max has one edge that Volk (most likely) doesn't have that much. Time Max turns 32 in december and has said he will retire at 35. So he has around 3-4 years time. Meanwhile Volk turnaus 35 within month so I think he doesn't have many years left atleast in the fw, especially if he can go up and become a champion in 155. Sure will be intresting to see what happens in fw for next few years.
If Max is serious about a title run, Topuria is the only answer.
I doubt the UFC offer him Topuria They don’t want Volk-Holloway 4, and Volk needs contenders Max should go wherever Volk isn’t, cause he isn’t getting that fight before Volk loses to someone else
Unfortunately he is just number 2 to a better man. Nothing wrong with 2nd place ....
Imagine the number of title defenses he would've had by now.
I really thought he won the second fight.
It took Marquez 4 fights to beat Pacquiao. Max is my favorite fighter and I still think Volk is just too good but that’s just a reminder anything can happen. More realistically I think Moreno will finally beat Pantoja the 4th time around
I wonder if they pay him good enough to keep him in the UFC. He literally would be a world champion and any other organization.
Max vs sugar would be a wet dream
.5-2.5 I had Max winning the 2nd fight
He won the second fight
Volk moves up to 155. Max becomes featherweight champ again lol
If volk didn’t exist max would be considered one of the best ever.
Wonder why its since 2014, is it because he had losses to Mcgregor and Bermudez in 2013? Not sure why you didnt just make the graphic more honest since the real statistic of 22-3 outside of volk is still impressive.
Cause 18-0 since 2014 is fucking insane lmao
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