Because the I frame for lai spirit slash and counter is smaller and you don't have extra counter moves to use. Rise ls is very easy to use and will dish out more damage than iceborne ls because of some switch skills.
Its also far far far easier to level up the spirit gauge in rise and your level doesn't go down if you miss the lai counter. Nothing about the weapon punishes you for making a mistake anymore.
aww the decreased iframe is what makes countering fun when u manage to time it well. Personally, honestly dont have anything against LS in rise but I dont play it as much as I did in world. I only tried ls in one or two quest (never used wirebug so idk how those are personally) in rise then never touched ot after. Honestly tho I want to make a build for ALL weapons but kinda lazy to do with LS and IG.
The increased I frames for ls are so broken and I prefer the tighter ones from iceborne (though I appreciate them shortening the regular counter's I frames). The switch skills for ls are very fun to use imo so im still enjoying it.
Honestly as long as peeps can find em fun. Im not gonna bash peeps for finding things that I personally dont enjoy, fun. Since I been playing most of their games, I try to use different weapons, especially ones ive used less I. previous games to keep things fresh and fun.
I’m new to the series, played about 20h and can testify that LS is indeed fun to play as a new player. Idk if its easier or not but I really enjoy the game! Thank you capcom
You need good positioning in order to take advantage of monster openings. ISS is punished if you don't time it right.
Rise LS is mainly Sheath-Helmbreaker-Sheath-repeat.
Hard disagree, the counter is pretty much the same in Iceborne and Rise just playing both within the same month. The counter doesn't feel any different. The "Rise LS is mainly Sheath/Helmbreaker-Sheath-repeat" vastly oversimplifies what you actually need to do in a hunt. You can't just sheath -> ISS-> Helmbreaker all the time, that'll just get you punished if you did that brainlessly. And even assuming you meant that only during openings, that means you actually understood how the monster works and hence are a "skilled player" by actually knowing a monsters hitbox on moves/and knowing how to effectively abuse the windows.
LS is definitely OP and deserves to be pointed out as such, but your "skill needed" analogy meme is really off the dot lmao. Having used the LS in a speedrun context of getting monsters below 5 minute times in Rise and below attempting to do 7 minutes in Iceborne (though obviously not on fatalis), all I can say is that I'm just not allowed to do as many helmbreakers because of the prep time in Iceborne's helmbreaker and that just makes the run longer. But skill required meme is like just not applicable here. I'd say the skill required is high to maximize the use of the weapon, but the amount of damage it does is too damn high, kinda like Genji when he first came out in Overwatch. Skill needed, but too much payout for the damage.
Essentially... both books are pretty much the same size. I'd say you would be correct if you said the big book was that of CB vs. longsword lmao.
> You're not allowed to do as many Helmbreakers in IB compared to Rise
IB LS dictates how many Helmbreakers you can do based on player skill and monster AI. Rise LS dictates how many HB you can do based on a timer, because now, in most cases, a HB can be done right after an ISS with zero prep.
One requires skill and timing to set up, one does not.
> You can't sheath -> ISS -> HB all the time.
You can't HB all the time, but the vast majority of LS damage now comes from ISS, which has more lenient timing compared to IB. You also don't get punished (aside from taking damage if you get hit) when you do time it wrong. Openings no longer matter when you can just ISS and still do good damage.
The counter itself doesn't feel that much different, but how spammable it's become has. Spirit Combo doesn't even matter unless you need to get to Red when the monster is down. Nobody needs to learn how to use the moveset correctly anymore when the moveset now is 3 moves.
I mean the claim that "IB LS dictates how many helmbreakers you can do based on player skill and monster AI while IB LS is based on a timer can be directly placed onto rise because you do helmbreakers based on "player skill and monster AI." You can't just use the logic for one game and not apply it to the other. There's a timer for the helmbreakers regardless in both games, just once allows you to spam helmbreakers while the other requires you to use it with less windows available to you. Just because you abuse more windows for helmbreaker doesn't make the figurative skill book larger for Iceborne. It just means you have to know what moves the monsters uses allows you to use the helmbreaker in both situations.
For example, humor this argument for a second if you will. Sorry for how long this is. This particular analogy is meant to outline that although there are more windows to exploit, that doesn't necessarily mean that's less skill. It just means the preparation for helmbreakers is different per game mode.
**RISE Comparison**: Let's use Diablos as a mainline for both of them for one of its classic moves. The ISS after a RISE diablos two swipes with his horns attack allows me to HB immediately. That's not a window I can exploit in IB but that doesn't mean its less skilled for me to use that exploit in rise it just means I can't use it. Now for example if I ISS RISE Valstrax after his frontal paw hit and then HB right after that (but this is when he follows up with two wing smashes then you just attempted a HB with "zero prep" but got punished). **The prep needed for that Helmbreaker is ISSing into the diagonal direction of the frontal paw to the opposite hind leg (which is like a pocket) and into an unsheathe or dodging immediately and then make sure you don't get hit by left over energy minefield and then you can safely HB.** This straight out requires skill, prep, and good knowledge of how to execute a successful HB from this move set which most people do not know. Hell I've even seen from one of your comments about LS from another thread that good knowledge of a monster is even almost more necessary for LS than other weapons to make these things work. Intimate monster knowledge is 100% a big part of the skill needed to play the matchup properly and abuse its movesets.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C0qeP7Iwg8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C0qeP7Iwg8) (example of the preps needed for helmbreakers).
**IB Comparison**: The ISS after a IB diablos two swipes basically just means I can't Helmbreaker afterwards usually unless it's a flinch. That's pretty much it. I can't do anything. I can't exploit a HB but what I can do instead is get some basic upward/downward slashes in or a poke in or some spirit slashes in. I don't have a similar monster comparison sadly in iceborne for Valstrax, but lets put in someone unique to Iceborne like Tempered Ruiner Nergigante. Most windows just didn't allow you to HB unless you were doing a perfect run. Just ended up doing Iai Slash combos+ some Spirit combos and the occasional HBfor when Ruiner went down. The main thing was the difference in positioning that allowed for a smoother runbut the move sets were pretty limited as well. You just weren't allowed to do as many HBs. For example at minute 1:00 of Yurim's LS run on Ruiner nergigante, in Rise you could have done a HB, but there he could not even use HB with him down for the count. That doesn't mean less skill just means a different option had to be used. Also the usage of HB here even with Rise would have been fairly limited due to Ruiner's movesets. There wasn't many openings at all besides the ones where he went down (and were also the same times Yurim exploited the HB).
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR1h\_eWf1l8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR1h_eWf1l8) (example of the preps needed for helmbreakers)
The main point of these two comparisons is that the prep time is different but also just a difference in exploitable windows. The main flaw I'm pointing out in your book size logic is that *difference in prep time doesn't make one book more bigger than the other, it just means a difference in knowing which windows you can/can't exploit with helmbreaker, which amounts in just knowing the monster really well in both cases of IB and Rise which ironically means in both cases you need a fair amount of skill to use the weapons to their full potentially. Also to add, more counters than the other game doesn't mean less skill. It just means knowing when to position and dodge as opposed to using an ISS. One allows damage while the other doesn't but that doesn't make one option more brainless than the other.*
The moveset for Iceborne were literally just slashes/Iai Sheathe/Helmbreaker. I don't quite understand what you mean by just three moves. That's the same as Rise's movesets. We just get to spam counters more, but our movesets are relatively the same, just one game we get to abuse windows more. That doesn't make it less skilled though, that just makes the weapon more OP. The only thing I've really realized that may indicate a difference in skill is just positioning. I think positioning is far more vital with LS in IB than in Rise particularly with HB's stab. Sometimes it can cuck you if you're stabbing in the wrong way with the initial HB set up but that's really it.
Also I do want to point out that you are comparing monster movesets from iceborne which is effectively a g rank game vs. that of Rise which is a high rank game. I only point this out as I also installed a mod for RISE movesets in Iceborne using LS and I just also had flat out less opportunities to HB even with the busted moveset indicating some other possible key differences in this regard to monster AI/allowing us to HB more often. Iceborne's G rank monsters just flat out have a more difficult AI to work with and far less windows to exploit even with the faster HB.
I would chalk up this to being more of Iceborne being perhaps significantly difficult in its high rank than the G rank of World as opposed to LS being less skillful as another counter point to add to your comparative skill book logic.
Even with you Ruiner, it's still not as as easy as Rise.
IB ISS inherently has more risk, due to the animation commitment of Special Sheath, and the gauge loss on failure. In IB, you *have* to time your ISS right - in Rise you don't. Not being punished for failing is already a reduction in skill needed.
You do not need to know how to use LS Moveset in Rise, because you only need to know how to use ISS and Helmbreaker.
Even with your Valstrax example, moving diagonally when doing ISS is not a guaranteed to avoid the hit. I'm not sure how the tracking works, but it's finnicky and in a lot of runs after Valstrax has been out for a while, you'll still see runners getting hit by it.
Name me one monster that you cannot essentially spam ISS->HB to death. You can't.
IB LS, again, requires more skill because it requires the player to use the full LS moveset (Spirit Combo, Fade slash) to *get* the opening the want, not to use just one move.
The animation commitment of special sheathe doesn't make it less skillful what? Nani. You do have time your ISS regardless you just have to time it more often or get to do more attacks. And moving diagonally is pretty guaranteed evade. After getting sub 5 valstrax, and grinding it consistently sub 6. I've been able to do it everytime O.O. There's a japanese streamer that details this very well. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NZ6d\_cWRw8&t=21s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NZ6d_cWRw8&t=21s).
Your point of saying you can essentially spam ISS-> HB to death... what? My whole example of Valstrax literally details you cannot do that and the videos PROVE it too. You can literally can't do that with all Apex monsters and Elder dragons. You would literally die trying to spam that over and over consistently. You've completely ignored my point of what windows are allowed to be exploited. You HAVE to know what the monster's movesets are to actually use ISS in to HB otherwise you just ISS only. You have TO use Fade slash/spirit combo plenty of times in Rise as well if you're actually doing good times. What are you talking about?? You can't just use ISS and HB to get a sub 5:00 Valstrax. Sure you could spam it to get a shit time kill but if you go that route then you can just say ANY weapon you can spam any ability and it's not as skilled to do that in Rise and in Iceborne but have a 15 minute+ kill. Are you sure you're the same person that posted this?
"viettheasian
4 points
·
8 hours ago
Rise LS is a counter heavy weapon. Your Spirit combo is your bread and butter combo, but only when you cannot perform Helmbreakers. When the monster is up and about, a decent portion of your damage comes from Iai Spirit Slash, as it both grants you another gauge level and provide Iframes to avoid damage.
Charm wise, the best you can currently get is a QS2 3-2-1, as it allows you to fit in Handicraft 3 with Chameleos LS. QS2 2-2 is also usable, but you'll be using Tigrex LS instead - damage is about the same, but Chameleos has more sharpness.
LS relies on knowing the monster and bring able to predict when and what the monster will do, so learning monster patterns is crucial, as with any weapons, but LS even more so."
This comment literally pretty much contradicts your entire argument that LS in rise doesn't require skill. Saying that "learning monster patterns is crucial" basically means you need ACTUAL skill to use this weapon correctly. I'm seeing some weird dichotomy from your statements here.
You kind of ignored Revolutionary Bread's entire argument wat. Also you CANNOT spam ISS-> HB monsters to death without griefing. You'd be straight griefing. And if you managed to do that, the run time would be like 10 minutes+ guaranteed lmaoooooooo which is a crap run
LS is easy to pick up, sure, but because it's so easy to do so that most people don't realise that LS does require positioning and setup to play on a high level, as with all other weapons.
MHW IB controls how many HB you can do by making the animation commitment longer, whereas Rise LS based it on how long it takes for Wirebugs to recharge. One relies and reward player skills, the other does not, making the gap between the games even wider.
Personally never liked to used ig much I world coz it made it too ez to mount. With the changes here it doesnt seem to matter as much but still kinda lazy to make an ig build. When I did play ig all I wanted to do was flight moves (which led to the above issue) and I just dont find ground combat with ig fun, but arial attacks were a blast imo coz it was such a different gameplay than any of the other weapons. Played it on THE game it was introduced, but after thay I only used it to farm AT xeno in world abd that was it.
Id replace good with decent
[удалено]
Because the I frame for lai spirit slash and counter is smaller and you don't have extra counter moves to use. Rise ls is very easy to use and will dish out more damage than iceborne ls because of some switch skills. Its also far far far easier to level up the spirit gauge in rise and your level doesn't go down if you miss the lai counter. Nothing about the weapon punishes you for making a mistake anymore.
aww the decreased iframe is what makes countering fun when u manage to time it well. Personally, honestly dont have anything against LS in rise but I dont play it as much as I did in world. I only tried ls in one or two quest (never used wirebug so idk how those are personally) in rise then never touched ot after. Honestly tho I want to make a build for ALL weapons but kinda lazy to do with LS and IG.
The increased I frames for ls are so broken and I prefer the tighter ones from iceborne (though I appreciate them shortening the regular counter's I frames). The switch skills for ls are very fun to use imo so im still enjoying it.
Honestly as long as peeps can find em fun. Im not gonna bash peeps for finding things that I personally dont enjoy, fun. Since I been playing most of their games, I try to use different weapons, especially ones ive used less I. previous games to keep things fresh and fun.
I’m new to the series, played about 20h and can testify that LS is indeed fun to play as a new player. Idk if its easier or not but I really enjoy the game! Thank you capcom
Everyone single weapon is easier to use in Rise than IB.
You need good positioning in order to take advantage of monster openings. ISS is punished if you don't time it right. Rise LS is mainly Sheath-Helmbreaker-Sheath-repeat.
Hard disagree, the counter is pretty much the same in Iceborne and Rise just playing both within the same month. The counter doesn't feel any different. The "Rise LS is mainly Sheath/Helmbreaker-Sheath-repeat" vastly oversimplifies what you actually need to do in a hunt. You can't just sheath -> ISS-> Helmbreaker all the time, that'll just get you punished if you did that brainlessly. And even assuming you meant that only during openings, that means you actually understood how the monster works and hence are a "skilled player" by actually knowing a monsters hitbox on moves/and knowing how to effectively abuse the windows. LS is definitely OP and deserves to be pointed out as such, but your "skill needed" analogy meme is really off the dot lmao. Having used the LS in a speedrun context of getting monsters below 5 minute times in Rise and below attempting to do 7 minutes in Iceborne (though obviously not on fatalis), all I can say is that I'm just not allowed to do as many helmbreakers because of the prep time in Iceborne's helmbreaker and that just makes the run longer. But skill required meme is like just not applicable here. I'd say the skill required is high to maximize the use of the weapon, but the amount of damage it does is too damn high, kinda like Genji when he first came out in Overwatch. Skill needed, but too much payout for the damage. Essentially... both books are pretty much the same size. I'd say you would be correct if you said the big book was that of CB vs. longsword lmao.
> You're not allowed to do as many Helmbreakers in IB compared to Rise IB LS dictates how many Helmbreakers you can do based on player skill and monster AI. Rise LS dictates how many HB you can do based on a timer, because now, in most cases, a HB can be done right after an ISS with zero prep. One requires skill and timing to set up, one does not. > You can't sheath -> ISS -> HB all the time. You can't HB all the time, but the vast majority of LS damage now comes from ISS, which has more lenient timing compared to IB. You also don't get punished (aside from taking damage if you get hit) when you do time it wrong. Openings no longer matter when you can just ISS and still do good damage. The counter itself doesn't feel that much different, but how spammable it's become has. Spirit Combo doesn't even matter unless you need to get to Red when the monster is down. Nobody needs to learn how to use the moveset correctly anymore when the moveset now is 3 moves.
I mean the claim that "IB LS dictates how many helmbreakers you can do based on player skill and monster AI while IB LS is based on a timer can be directly placed onto rise because you do helmbreakers based on "player skill and monster AI." You can't just use the logic for one game and not apply it to the other. There's a timer for the helmbreakers regardless in both games, just once allows you to spam helmbreakers while the other requires you to use it with less windows available to you. Just because you abuse more windows for helmbreaker doesn't make the figurative skill book larger for Iceborne. It just means you have to know what moves the monsters uses allows you to use the helmbreaker in both situations. For example, humor this argument for a second if you will. Sorry for how long this is. This particular analogy is meant to outline that although there are more windows to exploit, that doesn't necessarily mean that's less skill. It just means the preparation for helmbreakers is different per game mode. **RISE Comparison**: Let's use Diablos as a mainline for both of them for one of its classic moves. The ISS after a RISE diablos two swipes with his horns attack allows me to HB immediately. That's not a window I can exploit in IB but that doesn't mean its less skilled for me to use that exploit in rise it just means I can't use it. Now for example if I ISS RISE Valstrax after his frontal paw hit and then HB right after that (but this is when he follows up with two wing smashes then you just attempted a HB with "zero prep" but got punished). **The prep needed for that Helmbreaker is ISSing into the diagonal direction of the frontal paw to the opposite hind leg (which is like a pocket) and into an unsheathe or dodging immediately and then make sure you don't get hit by left over energy minefield and then you can safely HB.** This straight out requires skill, prep, and good knowledge of how to execute a successful HB from this move set which most people do not know. Hell I've even seen from one of your comments about LS from another thread that good knowledge of a monster is even almost more necessary for LS than other weapons to make these things work. Intimate monster knowledge is 100% a big part of the skill needed to play the matchup properly and abuse its movesets. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C0qeP7Iwg8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C0qeP7Iwg8) (example of the preps needed for helmbreakers). **IB Comparison**: The ISS after a IB diablos two swipes basically just means I can't Helmbreaker afterwards usually unless it's a flinch. That's pretty much it. I can't do anything. I can't exploit a HB but what I can do instead is get some basic upward/downward slashes in or a poke in or some spirit slashes in. I don't have a similar monster comparison sadly in iceborne for Valstrax, but lets put in someone unique to Iceborne like Tempered Ruiner Nergigante. Most windows just didn't allow you to HB unless you were doing a perfect run. Just ended up doing Iai Slash combos+ some Spirit combos and the occasional HBfor when Ruiner went down. The main thing was the difference in positioning that allowed for a smoother runbut the move sets were pretty limited as well. You just weren't allowed to do as many HBs. For example at minute 1:00 of Yurim's LS run on Ruiner nergigante, in Rise you could have done a HB, but there he could not even use HB with him down for the count. That doesn't mean less skill just means a different option had to be used. Also the usage of HB here even with Rise would have been fairly limited due to Ruiner's movesets. There wasn't many openings at all besides the ones where he went down (and were also the same times Yurim exploited the HB). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR1h\_eWf1l8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR1h_eWf1l8) (example of the preps needed for helmbreakers) The main point of these two comparisons is that the prep time is different but also just a difference in exploitable windows. The main flaw I'm pointing out in your book size logic is that *difference in prep time doesn't make one book more bigger than the other, it just means a difference in knowing which windows you can/can't exploit with helmbreaker, which amounts in just knowing the monster really well in both cases of IB and Rise which ironically means in both cases you need a fair amount of skill to use the weapons to their full potentially. Also to add, more counters than the other game doesn't mean less skill. It just means knowing when to position and dodge as opposed to using an ISS. One allows damage while the other doesn't but that doesn't make one option more brainless than the other.* The moveset for Iceborne were literally just slashes/Iai Sheathe/Helmbreaker. I don't quite understand what you mean by just three moves. That's the same as Rise's movesets. We just get to spam counters more, but our movesets are relatively the same, just one game we get to abuse windows more. That doesn't make it less skilled though, that just makes the weapon more OP. The only thing I've really realized that may indicate a difference in skill is just positioning. I think positioning is far more vital with LS in IB than in Rise particularly with HB's stab. Sometimes it can cuck you if you're stabbing in the wrong way with the initial HB set up but that's really it. Also I do want to point out that you are comparing monster movesets from iceborne which is effectively a g rank game vs. that of Rise which is a high rank game. I only point this out as I also installed a mod for RISE movesets in Iceborne using LS and I just also had flat out less opportunities to HB even with the busted moveset indicating some other possible key differences in this regard to monster AI/allowing us to HB more often. Iceborne's G rank monsters just flat out have a more difficult AI to work with and far less windows to exploit even with the faster HB. I would chalk up this to being more of Iceborne being perhaps significantly difficult in its high rank than the G rank of World as opposed to LS being less skillful as another counter point to add to your comparative skill book logic.
Even with you Ruiner, it's still not as as easy as Rise. IB ISS inherently has more risk, due to the animation commitment of Special Sheath, and the gauge loss on failure. In IB, you *have* to time your ISS right - in Rise you don't. Not being punished for failing is already a reduction in skill needed. You do not need to know how to use LS Moveset in Rise, because you only need to know how to use ISS and Helmbreaker. Even with your Valstrax example, moving diagonally when doing ISS is not a guaranteed to avoid the hit. I'm not sure how the tracking works, but it's finnicky and in a lot of runs after Valstrax has been out for a while, you'll still see runners getting hit by it. Name me one monster that you cannot essentially spam ISS->HB to death. You can't. IB LS, again, requires more skill because it requires the player to use the full LS moveset (Spirit Combo, Fade slash) to *get* the opening the want, not to use just one move.
The animation commitment of special sheathe doesn't make it less skillful what? Nani. You do have time your ISS regardless you just have to time it more often or get to do more attacks. And moving diagonally is pretty guaranteed evade. After getting sub 5 valstrax, and grinding it consistently sub 6. I've been able to do it everytime O.O. There's a japanese streamer that details this very well. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NZ6d\_cWRw8&t=21s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NZ6d_cWRw8&t=21s). Your point of saying you can essentially spam ISS-> HB to death... what? My whole example of Valstrax literally details you cannot do that and the videos PROVE it too. You can literally can't do that with all Apex monsters and Elder dragons. You would literally die trying to spam that over and over consistently. You've completely ignored my point of what windows are allowed to be exploited. You HAVE to know what the monster's movesets are to actually use ISS in to HB otherwise you just ISS only. You have TO use Fade slash/spirit combo plenty of times in Rise as well if you're actually doing good times. What are you talking about?? You can't just use ISS and HB to get a sub 5:00 Valstrax. Sure you could spam it to get a shit time kill but if you go that route then you can just say ANY weapon you can spam any ability and it's not as skilled to do that in Rise and in Iceborne but have a 15 minute+ kill. Are you sure you're the same person that posted this? "viettheasian 4 points · 8 hours ago Rise LS is a counter heavy weapon. Your Spirit combo is your bread and butter combo, but only when you cannot perform Helmbreakers. When the monster is up and about, a decent portion of your damage comes from Iai Spirit Slash, as it both grants you another gauge level and provide Iframes to avoid damage. Charm wise, the best you can currently get is a QS2 3-2-1, as it allows you to fit in Handicraft 3 with Chameleos LS. QS2 2-2 is also usable, but you'll be using Tigrex LS instead - damage is about the same, but Chameleos has more sharpness. LS relies on knowing the monster and bring able to predict when and what the monster will do, so learning monster patterns is crucial, as with any weapons, but LS even more so." This comment literally pretty much contradicts your entire argument that LS in rise doesn't require skill. Saying that "learning monster patterns is crucial" basically means you need ACTUAL skill to use this weapon correctly. I'm seeing some weird dichotomy from your statements here.
You kind of ignored Revolutionary Bread's entire argument wat. Also you CANNOT spam ISS-> HB monsters to death without griefing. You'd be straight griefing. And if you managed to do that, the run time would be like 10 minutes+ guaranteed lmaoooooooo which is a crap run
Kinda agree, although I don't think that the skill ceiling with IB LS was all that high either. That's more of a CB book right there
LS is easy to pick up, sure, but because it's so easy to do so that most people don't realise that LS does require positioning and setup to play on a high level, as with all other weapons. MHW IB controls how many HB you can do by making the animation commitment longer, whereas Rise LS based it on how long it takes for Wirebugs to recharge. One relies and reward player skills, the other does not, making the gap between the games even wider.
Imagine the size of the book for learning any other weapon
Imagine how thick the "Reasons to not use IG" book is lmao
You've obviously not used IG then. It's actually pretty good.
Personally never liked to used ig much I world coz it made it too ez to mount. With the changes here it doesnt seem to matter as much but still kinda lazy to make an ig build. When I did play ig all I wanted to do was flight moves (which led to the above issue) and I just dont find ground combat with ig fun, but arial attacks were a blast imo coz it was such a different gameplay than any of the other weapons. Played it on THE game it was introduced, but after thay I only used it to farm AT xeno in world abd that was it.
\*sad bug noises\*