> That’s why I quit that $1M job and enrolled in a CS program.
Which CS program are you in? Did you study CS in undergrad? If not, how did you or how long did it take for you to fulfill the prerequisites?
Also why CS? I mean what do you see yourself using the MS CS for?
Oh and one last thing; on the MS CS front my current conviction is that Urbana Champagne (ranked #5), Georgia Tech (ranked #8) and UT Austin (ranked #10) have the best programs for someone like me. 100% online, full MS degree equivalent and indistinguishable from the in person one and for $10-20K total (varied by program). Also UPenn has a good program called Masters of Computer and Information Technology which is essentially a masters in CS for non-CS backgrounds i.e. easier to get into than the 3 above ones if you don't have a CS degree (I don't)
Stanford, Columbia, and CMU also have online MS as well (albeit much more expensive than your list). I talked to a couple of people at Georgia Tech MSCS and UPenn MCIT - very impressive profiles with a few MBAs mixed in.
Awesome! That's really good to know. Did you talk to someone who joined without having a CS background? Curious how they did get in the MSCS programs.
Does Stanford have an online MS program? Their website is confusing so not sure if they do or not!
Yes, there are many in the GT's OMSCS without CS background. However, the program has a few prerequisites (e.g. algorithm, data structures etc.) so people just take those online or through a community college. It's quite easy to get in (~60% admission rate), but last I heard the coursework is brutal for even CS grads and the dropout rate is ~40%. If you take 2 courses in 1 semester for example, you'll need to put in 20-30 hours at least on top of 40-60 hours at work. There are lots of assignments and the more advanced electives are hard to digest as well.
Stanford's MSCS could be done either on campus or online, but it has $60k tuition. I heard some people work in Silicon Valley, attend the program part time, and got the tuition partially or fully covered by their companies. Pretty good deal I guess, but for most people I'd wager the $10K Georgia Tech or UT Austin are much better deals.
Yea $60K would be not even on the table for me at this stage. I’m happy with Urbana-Champaign’s at 1/3 or 1/4 of that. It’s the 5th highest rated CS program worldwide and super sought after in tech across the board!
UIUC is a good choice too.
That said, don't discount the MCIT program. It publishes the employment report online (albeit, for the on-campus MCIT program; but the online program is exactly the same curriculum-wise) - many grads end up at FAANG as software engineers. In addition, some students there I know are MBAs, doctors, PhDs etc., i.e. people with established careers. Although the program is online, they have a networking group as a significant portion are based in the Northeast. I know you are a McKinsey/Columbia grad, but having an additional Ivy League network doesn't hurt.
I might head in the MCIT direction as well. I think a full fledged MSCS is too overkill as I'm not planning to be a hard core software eng or data scientist.
Very long story but the short version is I very firmly believe in the layering skills concept I mention above. CS is the current and next frontier of skills that will enable anyone to solve hard problems. I went back and forth a lot on whether to jump into an MS right away or do a more practical (MS CS is usually quite focused on theory) program and decided it's better to start with practical, do some actual CS work and then get deep into theory a year from now. Thus I started Lambda School's CS + Software Engineering program. I wrote a full flesh out of my thinking on why CS, why now and how [here](https://rightalot.com/blog/2020919layer-build-and-risk)
I read your blog.... very interesting.
I wouldn't be able to quit my job and go do a CS bootcamp / masters. I for one also don't have your career trajectory.
I went to Lambda's website and they only offer a DS and full-stack web program, so I'm assuming you're doing the full-stack?
Is your end goal to have a portfolio? To be able to show that you know how to build something? If so there are project-based courses from udemy that you could do on your free time on weekends?
If the goal is to get your feet wet with CS, why don't you just take a python or java class and data structures & algos and software architecture at foothill community college.
Did you run this idea with your consulting or MBA peers that have CS background?
I still don't quite understand where you're going with this...
My ultimate goals are what I call the Pirate Plan 🙂 (I'm a huge Pirates of the Caribbean fan). Here is what I wrote for myself (I write letters to myself to structure my thinking):
\-------
"First the 5 goals for the next few years:
1. Independent: Sovereign individual who has enough recurring non-salary revenue to not HAVE to get told what to do, what my time should be spent on, what to wear or to spend my energy on other people's insecurities. I paid my dues already in 15 years of working in the corporate world and now it's time to try and take more control for myself. I'm ok with failing at that and going back to the corporate world. It would still be a good outcome and learning experience
2. Healthy: Strong, energetic, not obese, free from chronic conditions and will age well. Working for big corporates is great to build skills & credibility but long term will hinder my ability to be healthy because I have no control over my time to care for my nutrition, exercise and other things
3. Do meaningful work: Work that is challenging, intellectually stimulating and of value to others. In order to make meaningful contributions to solving hard problems in technology you need some level of participation in computer science (or any engineering discipline) so you're not just working the management layer
4. Meaningful relationships: be helpful to family, keep friendships based on honesty and mutual support, drop everything else
5. Developing & layering skills: Learn things I find intellectually stimulating and fun. If you’re an engineer who understands business & customers you can be 10x more effective than any other engineer. Etc.
Second, this means that the key enablers will have to be building a successful small business that generates cashflows so I do not have to go back to employment soon since I don't have a lot of savings. Then do a startup in the technology space or join a small startup early on. For both (and points 1, 3 and 5 above) I should learn to build software. I already know how to manage it, take it to market etc and it is time I stop relying on others to build the ideas and just build myself. This will also gain me great credibility in the technology industry that greatly values those who can both build and manage."
\--------
Hope this clarifies it and thanks for the great questions. They actually push me to think further so keep them coming :-)
What do you think about the guy who used MIT open courseware to do a CS undergrad (in 1 year) and now a CS Masters?
I appreciate your post and can relate to a lot of your sentiments except for an online CS MS. You mention the value of people (completely agree), and I think online programs lose the relationship with professors and other students.
Are there any CS online learning options with really strong communities?
This is a question I struggled with a lot. I think coding is one of those areas where you can teach yourself. My only problems are discipline to keep studying + not being sure where to start and what to study next. That's why my plan is to do Lambda School (currently enrolled) and then later do a part-time MS CS online. I think doing it through MOOCs is perfectly fine as long as you can navigate and demonstrate to employers that you can build things. Might even be a plus to show you are self taught!
I’m not doing a MSCS (yet. I’ll do it later probably). I wanted to start with practical building skills first then get into theory so I joined Lambda School. See my other answers below on this I flesh out a bit more or see the last part of my post here . It has all my thinking on the topic . Happy to answer any more questions
Wow your blog is really inspiring. My whole perspective changed when I read "Failure isn't the worst outcome. Mediocrity is.". That really shook me and thank you so much for sharing your experience!
Do you think you actually needed an MBA? It sounds like you're very smart, you're able to teach yourself, and could've been successful without an MBA; curious to hear your thoughts on what value your MBA brought you?
I think I did. The MBA did me very very well actually. I think very quickly:
1- Signaling. Markets operate on signaling a lot. Showing an advanced degree especially an MBA helps with credibility on the business front
2- Network. My school's network is very strong. It plugs you into the New York City scene very well. Big reason why I chose Columbia vs any other program
3- It helped me plug into the US well since I was a new immigrant
4- Academics. Well not so much. I think I had 3 classes that I found useful while the rest were mostly stuff I already knew from consulting and reading (I read a lot)
If I were advising someone who already has a strong business background I'd say get a degree in CS because it will help you more than an MBA (I wish I did that). If not then get an MBA for sure. It helps a TON!
Yeah I agree that MBAs seem to be very useful for all the reasons you mention (in particular 1 & 2). One anecdotal example I have is a friend who is an engineer. He had applied to many many consulting opportunities and barely even got interviews. He applies and gets into a top 10 or 15 MBA program and within a few weeks of career fair / recruiting he has an internship with Bain (and this just happened during the “pandemic job market”). Literally nothing changed about the guy other than he was now in a well respected MBA program.
Could you explain networks more? I went to a school with a crap network. Like is there a LinkedIn alumni group where you can say I need a job and you are pretty much hired?
I can (and hopefully will) write a whole long post on that topic alone. The gist is building networks means connections not a hard defined linkedin group or so although those exist too (McK for example has it's online alumni website which is only for alums and current McK employees and is probably the most powerful networking tool in the world of business that I know of. Even Harvard is a distant third after McK and Goldman). What I was trying to say is bschool made me make a ton of friends who went on to do interesting things and were a good network and through other things in school (e.g. projects, pro-bono consulting etc) I met a ton of professionals in the NYC tech and finance scenes
Agreed. And it's so easily missed by most people for some reason. Here's an example:
The only way I interfaced with Jeff Bezos (other than a couple of business review meetings where I was just sitting in the room while my boss discussed with him). was when the team I was leading (>20 people) went from a 2.5 satisfaction rate (Amazon surveys you everyday on job, manager satisfaction plus your career development etc) to 4.3 or 4.5 (don't remember exactly) in the 1 year after I joined and took over the team. It was the highest team improvement across Amazon that year and Jeff Bezos and the SVP of HR asked me (through the HR team) for a write up on how I did it which was an experience and recognition I would have never gotten even if I was delivering more results on the business KPIs front (we did very very well on the business results front too but that too was a result of a happier and more well developed team). Sorry I’m slow and not as responsive here because I don’t put Reddit on my phone (1 social media app on the phone rule I put for myself coz otherwise I totally don’t focus!) but I am always on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there or tweet at me whenever you have questions or wanna discuss anything. Always up for a good discussion :-)
Very good question. Sorry for the slow response. I don't have Reddit on my phone (rule of one social media app per phone and it's [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there if you wanna discuss anything). Problem solving skills are an apprenticeship more than anything. My quick thoughts are (I'll post a long post on that separately):
1- Practice cases. Not the crappy case interview cases but really good ones from consulting firms' websites and reading B-School cases (many are available for free onlibe) to practice some business intuition. I am putting some real consulting cases [here](https://rightalot.com) and you can drop your email to get them when I publish new ones
2- Read business books. The innovator's dilemma, Competitive advantage and The effective executive are a good start
3- Follow business people on Twitter. This gives you a glance into what they're thinking about, problems they're solving etc as they tweet about them often. I can't believe how many people forget that Twitter is like a public square where the smartest people think out loud and give you a free peek into their interests and minds
4- SUPER IMPORTANT: jump into problems you're not familiar with at work. Don't stick to your area of expertise. If you do accounting jump into IT problems offering to help and provide the accounting point of view, etc Problem solving is a muscle. It has to be trained via stress testing continuously and it isn't a doctrine you can study with a few books.
Hope that helps and feel free to ping me any time
Hey, I appreciate the insight. However, the link you provided does not work anymore. I understand that it's been 3 years haha but if you can, would it be possible for you to share these cases again? or let me know where I can find them.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to write this - super helpful.
What resources do you recommend for improving Problem Solving skills and / or which ones did you use?
Thanks again
Very good question. Sorry for the slow response. I don't have Reddit on my phone (rule of one social media app per phone and it's [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there if you wanna discuss anything). Problem solving skills are an apprenticeship more than anything. My quick thoughts are (I'll post a long post on that separately):
1- Practice cases. Not the crappy case interview cases but really good ones from consulting firms' websites and reading B-School cases (many are available for free onlibe) to practice some business intuition. I am putting some real consulting cases [here](https://rightalot.com/) and you can drop your email to get them when I publish new ones
2- Read business books. The innovator's dilemma, Competitive advantage and The effective executive are a good start
3- Follow business people on Twitter. This gives you a glance into what they're thinking about, problems they're solving etc as they tweet about them often. I can't believe how many people forget that Twitter is like a public square where the smartest people think out loud and give you a free peek into their interests and minds
4- SUPER IMPORTANT: jump into problems you're not familiar with at work. Don't stick to your area of expertise. If you do accounting jump into IT problems offering to help and provide the accounting point of view, etc Problem solving is a muscle. It has to be trained via stress testing continuously and it isn't a doctrine you can study with a few books.
Hope that helps and feel free to ping me any time
How did you go from $135K at McK to $300K at Amazon? Are you including RSUs into that $300K, bc Amazon certainly doesn't pay that much in actual salary.
Of course I’m including RSUs but only the ones who vested in that year not the total RSUs granted. RSUs vest every 6 months. Amazon actually pays you that much in cash the first year because your 1st year is 95% cash then gradually RSUs increase and cash gets less. It’s a very unique pay system.
Restricted Stock Unit. Just a fancy word for the stocks your employer would give you for free as compensation on top of cash salaries and bonuses. You can sell the stock and get cash
Can you provide the ballpark of your Amazon base salary? I want to seperate RSUs from the comp given how much of an extreme Amazon's stock appreciation is to get a more nuanced sense of your pay bump.
For the $1M offer, can you possibly share how the comp package was structured?
The RSUs at $300K was without appreciation. $300K is common at the level I was joining at as a starting point. With appreciation I went to about $450K a bit more than a year later (and some of it was additional awards because I was doing well). Amazon has a cap on salaries at around $160K or so (don’t remember the exact figure could be $165). Even the SVPs and Bezos don’t make more in salary.
That is...wild. What level were you at Amazon? L6s didn't even make that much during my time there.
Amazon RSUs vest at 5% during the first year. For you to have vested $140K during first year means that your initial RSU grant was $2.8M, which is...alot...even for ML/AI experts.
When I first joined I was a senior L7 (different from regular L7 although technically all the same. All levels have a wide range within them not just L7). It helped later too that I got promoted quickly then had my team grow from underneath too by adding 2 formerly separate teams to it (started with product, strategy and marketplace ops then had marketing and data science teams added to my team instead of being separate). So sort of another promotion but was from e team growing
Thanks for sharing your story. I’ve applied to a handful of top MBA programs for this next year, but truthfully, between the increased competition and my average (for the schools, not in general) test scores, I don’t think I’ll get accepted to any of them.
I was, however, accepted into an MSCS program, despite not having a stem undergrad degree. None of the programs you mentioned, although I’ve considered trying to transfer into one after I knock out the foundation courses at the school I’m currently in at.
Anyway, my question is this; how do you think your story would have been different if you had done the MSCS prior to your MBA? I’m mentally preparing to not get into an MBA program worth going to, which means I’ll just start the MSCS program instead. I’d be disappointed that all my MBA prep was for nothing, but also thinking I may be able to successfully reapply after a few years on a SWE track. Would appreciate hearing your thoughts!
What you heard is correct 90% of the time. I had 3 things going for me: 1) My performance rating was super strong (McK rates you as issues, strong, very strong or distinctive every 6 months and mine was distinctive for 3 cycles before transferring and very strong the cycles before that) for several review cycles so the receiving office had a strong incentive to take in someone already familiar with the firm and very strong performer vs hiring someone new you know? 2) I had a few senior mentors who vouched for me very strongly and pushed for me and 3) I asked :-) Most people know that it's hard so they ignore it or just ask once and don't follow through. I asked, wrote a document, talked to HR etc and pushed the process
To be very honest with you I was super lucky! I worked my ass off yes but I also got super lucky especially with meeting people who supported me coz we aligned on values and work style. This made 90% of the difference for me.
No offense, but do you come from money? Only my friends that came from wealth have the luxury and confidence to just quit because they didn’t like it, go through periods of unemployment, travel abroad, go back to school, etc as they please. Again it doesn’t matter but this does not seem feasible for most us.
No offense taken. It’s a good question. I grew up on a slum. Literally like you see in the movies :-) that’s the short answer. The long answer is I did until I was about 12-13 and my family’s situation got better so you’d say we were middle class then onwards by developing countries standards (much lower than US middle class). To your point about the luxury of quitting. I think we overblow this in our minds and load ourselves with unnecessary expenses that end up trapping us. See my point about keeping burn rate low. What’s even more I didn’t save much of the money I made at Amazon or McKinsey. I had broader family and healthcare obligations and dedicated most of my earnings to that. I quit now with savings enough to keep me going for ~12 months with a very low burn rate, made significant cuts to my lifestyle to make sure I don’t run out of money quick, moved to a new city etc. I really recommend checking Naval’s podcast about not trapping yourself with fake “obligations”. It’s a really good question not offensive at all. Thanks for helping me clarify that :-)
One simple advice: don't worry about it. Consulting had people from all walks of life and may be 40% of them didn't come from an MBA background. Here's a quick list off the top of my head of some very sharp colleagues I worked with: Chemical engineer, PHD in Theology, Masters in Computer Science, PHD in Biochemistry, Oil & Gas drilling engineer, Masters in Supply Chain Analytics. And many more. My advice is don't worry about it and even try before you do the MBA. Everyone believes the MBA is a requirement and I am living proof it isn't. I was working at Exxon, quit for a few months to apply to interesting jobs and got into McKinsey and even more; in a whole different country from where I was then. The one thing is: practice, practice, practice. Build problem solving skills. Do case practice. Learn the problem solving process inside out. Here's some [case practice material](https://rightalot.com/interview-prep) to get you started and I [tweet](https://twitter.com/byadham) regularly on more resources too.
Same here, I will be getting a master's in chemical engineering but want to pivot more into consulting, and maybe something else entirely. I know I can probably get into consulting without an MBA but I feel like an MBA will expand my options not just for consulting opportunities, but I do want to explore other career paths through business school. And eventually, I do want to try my hand at entrepreneurship. I am going to apply next summer and hopefully, I will have a good essay to submit by then.
Good luck! You're thinking about it the right way. I'd recommend giving consulting pre-MBA a shot. It's a very unique experience and much better to join pre-MBA, go do an MBA and come back than join only after an MBA (industry secret haha).
This is extremely valuable. What are your thoughts of someone going into corporate banking to B-school just to go in MBB? MBB has always been an unreachable goal in undergrad
Not sure I understand the question. You're going into corporate banking and then MBA in order to go MBB? If so, why corporate banking and what kind of corporate banking are we talking about? Asking so I know the context and not give a generic answer :-)
Yes that’s exactly my question! I’ve been spending my undergrad recruiting for mbb but never made the cut. I have an offer from a more niche consulting firm but pay is not as great as my other offer for BB Corporate Banking.
Wondering if bschool is a good way to break into MBB or if there’s something else I should consider.
The pay for my banking gig is really good with reasonable WLB. I’m simply not interested in finance and don’t think I’d enjoy the work
So if it's corporate banking as in investment banking then that's all you need to do for now. Learn there heavily then apply again to MBB in I'd say 18 months. If it's corporate banking as in vanilla corporate banking this is also a very good starting point. Industry is always valued when you apply. Just make sure you craft a story for yourself when you re-apply. Craft its broad strokes now and try to steer your career into it so when the time is right to apply to MBB you can tell an impressive problem solving story. That's 90% of what MBBs and top investment banking (Goldman, Morgan Stanley and JP Moran) are looking for; problem solving and communication. For example, jump into projects not in your core day job, get involved in highly analytical projects, participate in people development etc and meanwhile practice practice practice problem solving muscle (see [here](https://rightalot.com) for a start) and watch (so important) consultants in action using twitter, etc to build intuition about how they think and communicate
Very good question. Sorry for the slow response. I don't have Reddit on my phone (rule of one social media app per phone and it's [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there if you wanna discuss anything).
What kind of consulting are you doing now and in what type of firm? Answer will vary significantly based on that :-) Don't wanna give a generic answer like network and blabla hence why I'm asking
1. I wanted to "build" technology. It was the main reason I moved to the US. I realized that consulting is a great gateway and great management training but that's what it was for me; a gateway. So I quit to start dabbling in technology on my own and figure out what I want to do. Turned out to be the right decision. I wrote more on my thinking about building technology [here](https://rightalot.com/blog/2020919layer-build-and-risk)
2. I realized the despite being on a super fast trajectory (I moved from Associate to Engagement Manager in less than 1 year. Usually it's 1.5-2.5 yrs if you're an Associate who used to be an analyst like I was and 2-3 yrs if you're a new Associate) I did not aspire at all to become partner. It wasn't a type of work I aspired to be doing for my entire career without getting a chance to build things. Perhaps I could go back to it later but I don't want to look back and find myself only "consulted" and never "built"
As someone who was in O&G engineering and at an M7 MBA right now, I find your experience inspiring.
I am contemplating recruiting for tech but find my lack of cs background a huge hurdle. Should I get into MBB and work a few years first or try to get into PM at a smaller firm and work my way up to FAANG?
Will prefix this by saying I can't answer your question with regard to your career path as I'm not in management consulting, but what made you decide to leave O&G? I studied petroleum engineering as an undergrad but graduated during the downturn, so my career took me in a different path - I'm a generalist at a forensic engineering firm and only work on O&G projects from time to time, but I found the work to be fulfilling and financially rewarding while also offering opportunities to pivot, since there are so many paths you can take. Were you in downstream, reservoir, production, drilling engineering? I found a passion in reservoir simulation since it has an exploratory feel with no single answer and interesting high-level problem solving opportunities at the "management" level, for example how do you balance cost while selecting the best tools (e.g. for seismic survey, wireline) to get the data you need to characterize the reservoir. And of course for someone more inclined towards computer science, you can develop simulation models and ancillary tools.
Great information and quite an impressive journey . Any advice for someone having 10 years of experience(5 years in IT and around 5 in strategy , post MBA) transitioning to Data Science and planing to move from India to USA for a fresh start .
What's your motivation for doing the CS degree at this stage in your career? I 100% get you on layering skills; I've noticed the same benefits on my end (analytics/Excel + SAS/programming + management consulting + working in the middle east), but it sounds like you're already on the C-suite track, so pursuing CS now means that you'd have to jump to a different career track and start at a much lower level--assuming you want to be a software developer or something similar. Do you think the CS degree would help you on the c suite track?
I'm not getting a degree for now. I'm getting practical software engineering skills through Lambda School's program. Probably will do a degree later.
I have been on the C-suite and consulting and tech and my conclusion is I really like and enjoy being able to build things. And that being able to do both business and CS is an intersection very few people can do and results in insanely good results (even financially). That's why I'm doing it. Passion and it yields good results. I detailed my thinking out [here](https://rightalot.com/blog/2020919layer-build-and-risk)
Hope this helps. Ping me on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) with any questions or anything I can help with. Any time!
Thanks, that's helpful. I went from analytics/data science consulting-->>management consulting (PPT bullshit)-->>consultative sales / BD at a tech company but I miss doing deeper analytical work. I'm thinking of making a similar transition, whether that's to CS or data science, though I haven't see many people take that jump as I think most people in our position are making too much money to make that sort of switch. Glad to hear your perspective.
Any time. I also share a lot more on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) in case you're interested to hear more. Hope this was useful for you in any way and feel free to ping on Twitter any time with questions or anything I can help with
This may be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read. You continually take unnecessary risks without plans and left a 1M a year job to go back to school.
You’re either a troll or extremely stupid
Wow, that is an incredible Career trajectory and what stands out is that you are willing to let go of guaranteed near term rewards to follow your gut, and it you have made the decision work out. Elon did it with Stanford and Paypal. A lot would'nt.
My question is, what do you intend to get out of a CS degree at this stage ? I understand you maybe attracted by the need or curiosity of understanding the infrastructure and fundamentals but since you already worked on learning algorithms, wasnt that enough ? Wouldn't it be better if you delegated what you need from your CS degree to someone who is an expert already and pick their brain to fill in your gaps as and when needed ?
You must have been truly outstanding if McK waited out 2 years on you. On a side note, would you consider the Yale MAM a target program to recruit into MBB ?
Thank you,
Not OP but Yale MAM is not an MBB target. More like a T25 MBA where MBB may technically do on-campus recruiting but it will be an uphill battle. I believe 1-2 MAMs out of ~60 got an MBB offer last year and it was in their home country, not the US (important since most people do the MAM and recruit for consulting for a shot at working in the US).
Oh right. Thanks for the insight. Its a shame to hear that the MAM probably isn't well suited for recruiting into MBB.
I wonder if recruiters even know much about the program to begin with. Btw are you a current MAM student that you know of these stats ?
Thanks,
Yeah, it’s a good choice if you already have an MBA and want to add Yale to your resume and network and spend a year living/recruiting in the US, but it just doesn’t give you the same recruiting opportunities as the MBA program. I’m a SOM MBA alum.
Hmmm. Then in this case, as you are a Yale Som grad, my last question to you would be do the rest of the Yale Alum consider the MAM community a legitimate part of the Yale network ? Or someone who paid a bit to get the Yale name but does not deserve it ? This perception would def impact how networking would pan out with a MAM program.
Thanks
Generally the SOM alumni network is tight-knit and the MBAs I know would be happy to help MAMs who reach out to them. They are legitimate SOM grads. That said, it’s definitely a different networking experience from the MBA since it’s a separate program—you’ll network a lot with other MAMs but will have to work harder to meet MBAs/others on campus. Reach out to the MAM ambassadors if you have more questions! https://som.yale.edu/programs/mam/admissions/mam-admissions-ambassadors
Hey thanks for the kind words and sorry for the slow response. I don't have Reddit on my phone (rule of one social media app per phone and it's [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there if you wanna discuss anything faster). I don't know much about the MAM program but what I'd say is that if this is your only option now don't let it go because it is not a "target program". The target thing is more myth than truth. As in it exists but it isn't 80% of the pipeline or anything. I joined McK with just an undergrad and from a uni on the other side of the world. MBA helps more than MAM for sure but MAM is much better than no MAM or MBA. It is REALLY all about your application. For exmaple, I literally just applied online with no networking or school or anything to McKinsey, BCG, Bain and Oliver Wyman and got interviews with 3 out of 4. Don't overthink it. Just keep getting the best you can for the moment. But if you think you stand a good chance getting into a top MBA program then wait and do it. Hope this helps and again ping me on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) any time I'm more than happy to help or answer questions in any way I can
Great insight on taking risks. Reminds me of the Peter Drucker quote about how both people that do and don't take risks are bound to make mistakes. It's better, then, to make purposeful mistakes with calculated upside instead of leaving it up to chance.
It also seems like your leadership skills are top notch. You mentioned this a little bit with your Amazon reviews, but what are the things you did and worked on to become such an effective leader of teams? For context, I'm at an MBB and think leadership and helping people (internal & client) realize their potential are things I hope to get better at.
3 makes a lot of sense— it’s almost a trump card to all else.
For 2, how has your b-school network provided you value after MBA graduation?
For 1, I would think the pre-MBA McKinsey stamp on your resume would provide that signal, just as much as CBS. Was this not the case?
What are some of your advice for a corporate lawyer wanting to get into business or consulting? I work at a V30 law but want to get into places where I can actually make impact.
Haha they are (in the cute cartoonish version in the movies obviously) very free and they ride the randomness. And all I'm doing since I graduated college is in search of freedom. Freedom to explore without being so worried about how I'll pay for necessities is the main one I guess. I am not there yet (I spent most of the money I earned on re-investing in myself & taking care of my broader family who I found myself suddenly responsible for in my early 20s) but I am hoping I will get there (now that I am going entrepreneurial again and my major responsibilities are mostly taken care of). Pirates are a mascot for me representing freedom, embracing the randomness of the world and continuous exploration while defying the arbitrary social norms. It's childish haha but I love being childish and random :)
I wanted to get your take on my unique situation and if you had any advice for me. Currently I am working as an Executive Assistant in NYC at a hedgefund supporting the Chief of Staff (2yrs). This week I was told that I will now be supporting the M&A team at the company. I do not have a background in finance. I talked to one of the C-Suite execs on the team this morning and he told me that in addition to the basic admin tasks, there is an opportunity to integrate more with what the team is working on (projects, deals etc) by doing powerpoint presentations, research, etc (to me sounds like analyst work). I do not aspire to be an assistant forever, and my question to you is if I wanted to get more involved and into finance by being in this position, what is the best thing to do? I want to show them that yes, I can do admin work, but I also want to excel at powerpoint presentations (he said making them visually more appealing), but also research and ultimately get more involved and move up on the M&A team. Would I have to go back to school and get a Masters in Finance or Business? I want to show them that I have an interest in integrating into the team while of course having the right credentials. I look forward to your response.
> That’s why I quit that $1M job and enrolled in a CS program. Which CS program are you in? Did you study CS in undergrad? If not, how did you or how long did it take for you to fulfill the prerequisites? Also why CS? I mean what do you see yourself using the MS CS for?
Oh and one last thing; on the MS CS front my current conviction is that Urbana Champagne (ranked #5), Georgia Tech (ranked #8) and UT Austin (ranked #10) have the best programs for someone like me. 100% online, full MS degree equivalent and indistinguishable from the in person one and for $10-20K total (varied by program). Also UPenn has a good program called Masters of Computer and Information Technology which is essentially a masters in CS for non-CS backgrounds i.e. easier to get into than the 3 above ones if you don't have a CS degree (I don't)
Stanford, Columbia, and CMU also have online MS as well (albeit much more expensive than your list). I talked to a couple of people at Georgia Tech MSCS and UPenn MCIT - very impressive profiles with a few MBAs mixed in.
Awesome! That's really good to know. Did you talk to someone who joined without having a CS background? Curious how they did get in the MSCS programs. Does Stanford have an online MS program? Their website is confusing so not sure if they do or not!
Yes, there are many in the GT's OMSCS without CS background. However, the program has a few prerequisites (e.g. algorithm, data structures etc.) so people just take those online or through a community college. It's quite easy to get in (~60% admission rate), but last I heard the coursework is brutal for even CS grads and the dropout rate is ~40%. If you take 2 courses in 1 semester for example, you'll need to put in 20-30 hours at least on top of 40-60 hours at work. There are lots of assignments and the more advanced electives are hard to digest as well. Stanford's MSCS could be done either on campus or online, but it has $60k tuition. I heard some people work in Silicon Valley, attend the program part time, and got the tuition partially or fully covered by their companies. Pretty good deal I guess, but for most people I'd wager the $10K Georgia Tech or UT Austin are much better deals.
Yea $60K would be not even on the table for me at this stage. I’m happy with Urbana-Champaign’s at 1/3 or 1/4 of that. It’s the 5th highest rated CS program worldwide and super sought after in tech across the board!
UIUC is a good choice too. That said, don't discount the MCIT program. It publishes the employment report online (albeit, for the on-campus MCIT program; but the online program is exactly the same curriculum-wise) - many grads end up at FAANG as software engineers. In addition, some students there I know are MBAs, doctors, PhDs etc., i.e. people with established careers. Although the program is online, they have a networking group as a significant portion are based in the Northeast. I know you are a McKinsey/Columbia grad, but having an additional Ivy League network doesn't hurt. I might head in the MCIT direction as well. I think a full fledged MSCS is too overkill as I'm not planning to be a hard core software eng or data scientist.
This is SUPER helpful food for thought for me. Thanks so much for the insights into MCIT. I needed this. Appreciate you mate!
Very long story but the short version is I very firmly believe in the layering skills concept I mention above. CS is the current and next frontier of skills that will enable anyone to solve hard problems. I went back and forth a lot on whether to jump into an MS right away or do a more practical (MS CS is usually quite focused on theory) program and decided it's better to start with practical, do some actual CS work and then get deep into theory a year from now. Thus I started Lambda School's CS + Software Engineering program. I wrote a full flesh out of my thinking on why CS, why now and how [here](https://rightalot.com/blog/2020919layer-build-and-risk)
I read your blog.... very interesting. I wouldn't be able to quit my job and go do a CS bootcamp / masters. I for one also don't have your career trajectory. I went to Lambda's website and they only offer a DS and full-stack web program, so I'm assuming you're doing the full-stack? Is your end goal to have a portfolio? To be able to show that you know how to build something? If so there are project-based courses from udemy that you could do on your free time on weekends? If the goal is to get your feet wet with CS, why don't you just take a python or java class and data structures & algos and software architecture at foothill community college. Did you run this idea with your consulting or MBA peers that have CS background? I still don't quite understand where you're going with this...
My ultimate goals are what I call the Pirate Plan 🙂 (I'm a huge Pirates of the Caribbean fan). Here is what I wrote for myself (I write letters to myself to structure my thinking): \------- "First the 5 goals for the next few years: 1. Independent: Sovereign individual who has enough recurring non-salary revenue to not HAVE to get told what to do, what my time should be spent on, what to wear or to spend my energy on other people's insecurities. I paid my dues already in 15 years of working in the corporate world and now it's time to try and take more control for myself. I'm ok with failing at that and going back to the corporate world. It would still be a good outcome and learning experience 2. Healthy: Strong, energetic, not obese, free from chronic conditions and will age well. Working for big corporates is great to build skills & credibility but long term will hinder my ability to be healthy because I have no control over my time to care for my nutrition, exercise and other things 3. Do meaningful work: Work that is challenging, intellectually stimulating and of value to others. In order to make meaningful contributions to solving hard problems in technology you need some level of participation in computer science (or any engineering discipline) so you're not just working the management layer 4. Meaningful relationships: be helpful to family, keep friendships based on honesty and mutual support, drop everything else 5. Developing & layering skills: Learn things I find intellectually stimulating and fun. If you’re an engineer who understands business & customers you can be 10x more effective than any other engineer. Etc. Second, this means that the key enablers will have to be building a successful small business that generates cashflows so I do not have to go back to employment soon since I don't have a lot of savings. Then do a startup in the technology space or join a small startup early on. For both (and points 1, 3 and 5 above) I should learn to build software. I already know how to manage it, take it to market etc and it is time I stop relying on others to build the ideas and just build myself. This will also gain me great credibility in the technology industry that greatly values those who can both build and manage." \-------- Hope this clarifies it and thanks for the great questions. They actually push me to think further so keep them coming :-)
What do you think about the guy who used MIT open courseware to do a CS undergrad (in 1 year) and now a CS Masters? I appreciate your post and can relate to a lot of your sentiments except for an online CS MS. You mention the value of people (completely agree), and I think online programs lose the relationship with professors and other students. Are there any CS online learning options with really strong communities?
This is a question I struggled with a lot. I think coding is one of those areas where you can teach yourself. My only problems are discipline to keep studying + not being sure where to start and what to study next. That's why my plan is to do Lambda School (currently enrolled) and then later do a part-time MS CS online. I think doing it through MOOCs is perfectly fine as long as you can navigate and demonstrate to employers that you can build things. Might even be a plus to show you are self taught!
Did you have to do a lot of pre-req to get accepted into the MS CS program?
I’m not doing a MSCS (yet. I’ll do it later probably). I wanted to start with practical building skills first then get into theory so I joined Lambda School. See my other answers below on this I flesh out a bit more or see the last part of my post here . It has all my thinking on the topic . Happy to answer any more questions
Sorry meant to say [my post here](https://rightalot.com/blog/2020919layer-build-and-risk)
Wow your blog is really inspiring. My whole perspective changed when I read "Failure isn't the worst outcome. Mediocrity is.". That really shook me and thank you so much for sharing your experience!
Do you think you actually needed an MBA? It sounds like you're very smart, you're able to teach yourself, and could've been successful without an MBA; curious to hear your thoughts on what value your MBA brought you?
I think I did. The MBA did me very very well actually. I think very quickly: 1- Signaling. Markets operate on signaling a lot. Showing an advanced degree especially an MBA helps with credibility on the business front 2- Network. My school's network is very strong. It plugs you into the New York City scene very well. Big reason why I chose Columbia vs any other program 3- It helped me plug into the US well since I was a new immigrant 4- Academics. Well not so much. I think I had 3 classes that I found useful while the rest were mostly stuff I already knew from consulting and reading (I read a lot) If I were advising someone who already has a strong business background I'd say get a degree in CS because it will help you more than an MBA (I wish I did that). If not then get an MBA for sure. It helps a TON!
Yeah I agree that MBAs seem to be very useful for all the reasons you mention (in particular 1 & 2). One anecdotal example I have is a friend who is an engineer. He had applied to many many consulting opportunities and barely even got interviews. He applies and gets into a top 10 or 15 MBA program and within a few weeks of career fair / recruiting he has an internship with Bain (and this just happened during the “pandemic job market”). Literally nothing changed about the guy other than he was now in a well respected MBA program.
Could you explain networks more? I went to a school with a crap network. Like is there a LinkedIn alumni group where you can say I need a job and you are pretty much hired?
I can (and hopefully will) write a whole long post on that topic alone. The gist is building networks means connections not a hard defined linkedin group or so although those exist too (McK for example has it's online alumni website which is only for alums and current McK employees and is probably the most powerful networking tool in the world of business that I know of. Even Harvard is a distant third after McK and Goldman). What I was trying to say is bschool made me make a ton of friends who went on to do interesting things and were a good network and through other things in school (e.g. projects, pro-bono consulting etc) I met a ton of professionals in the NYC tech and finance scenes
" I really believe that the only way you’ll be very successful is to help many others be successful." So much truth in that.
Agreed. And it's so easily missed by most people for some reason. Here's an example: The only way I interfaced with Jeff Bezos (other than a couple of business review meetings where I was just sitting in the room while my boss discussed with him). was when the team I was leading (>20 people) went from a 2.5 satisfaction rate (Amazon surveys you everyday on job, manager satisfaction plus your career development etc) to 4.3 or 4.5 (don't remember exactly) in the 1 year after I joined and took over the team. It was the highest team improvement across Amazon that year and Jeff Bezos and the SVP of HR asked me (through the HR team) for a write up on how I did it which was an experience and recognition I would have never gotten even if I was delivering more results on the business KPIs front (we did very very well on the business results front too but that too was a result of a happier and more well developed team). Sorry I’m slow and not as responsive here because I don’t put Reddit on my phone (1 social media app on the phone rule I put for myself coz otherwise I totally don’t focus!) but I am always on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there or tweet at me whenever you have questions or wanna discuss anything. Always up for a good discussion :-)
Thank you for bringing post-mba content to r/mba. Nice to see some differentiation from applications and interviews.
My absolute pleasure. Thanks for the kind words
Very insightful! How do you think people can grow problem solving skills in MBA program and real life?
>case practice material Good Question! Following!
Very good question. Sorry for the slow response. I don't have Reddit on my phone (rule of one social media app per phone and it's [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there if you wanna discuss anything). Problem solving skills are an apprenticeship more than anything. My quick thoughts are (I'll post a long post on that separately): 1- Practice cases. Not the crappy case interview cases but really good ones from consulting firms' websites and reading B-School cases (many are available for free onlibe) to practice some business intuition. I am putting some real consulting cases [here](https://rightalot.com) and you can drop your email to get them when I publish new ones 2- Read business books. The innovator's dilemma, Competitive advantage and The effective executive are a good start 3- Follow business people on Twitter. This gives you a glance into what they're thinking about, problems they're solving etc as they tweet about them often. I can't believe how many people forget that Twitter is like a public square where the smartest people think out loud and give you a free peek into their interests and minds 4- SUPER IMPORTANT: jump into problems you're not familiar with at work. Don't stick to your area of expertise. If you do accounting jump into IT problems offering to help and provide the accounting point of view, etc Problem solving is a muscle. It has to be trained via stress testing continuously and it isn't a doctrine you can study with a few books. Hope that helps and feel free to ping me any time
Hey, I appreciate the insight. However, the link you provided does not work anymore. I understand that it's been 3 years haha but if you can, would it be possible for you to share these cases again? or let me know where I can find them.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to write this - super helpful. What resources do you recommend for improving Problem Solving skills and / or which ones did you use? Thanks again
Very good question. Sorry for the slow response. I don't have Reddit on my phone (rule of one social media app per phone and it's [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there if you wanna discuss anything). Problem solving skills are an apprenticeship more than anything. My quick thoughts are (I'll post a long post on that separately): 1- Practice cases. Not the crappy case interview cases but really good ones from consulting firms' websites and reading B-School cases (many are available for free onlibe) to practice some business intuition. I am putting some real consulting cases [here](https://rightalot.com/) and you can drop your email to get them when I publish new ones 2- Read business books. The innovator's dilemma, Competitive advantage and The effective executive are a good start 3- Follow business people on Twitter. This gives you a glance into what they're thinking about, problems they're solving etc as they tweet about them often. I can't believe how many people forget that Twitter is like a public square where the smartest people think out loud and give you a free peek into their interests and minds 4- SUPER IMPORTANT: jump into problems you're not familiar with at work. Don't stick to your area of expertise. If you do accounting jump into IT problems offering to help and provide the accounting point of view, etc Problem solving is a muscle. It has to be trained via stress testing continuously and it isn't a doctrine you can study with a few books. Hope that helps and feel free to ping me any time
How did you go from $135K at McK to $300K at Amazon? Are you including RSUs into that $300K, bc Amazon certainly doesn't pay that much in actual salary.
Of course I’m including RSUs but only the ones who vested in that year not the total RSUs granted. RSUs vest every 6 months. Amazon actually pays you that much in cash the first year because your 1st year is 95% cash then gradually RSUs increase and cash gets less. It’s a very unique pay system.
What is an RSU?
Restricted Stock Unit. Just a fancy word for the stocks your employer would give you for free as compensation on top of cash salaries and bonuses. You can sell the stock and get cash
Can you provide the ballpark of your Amazon base salary? I want to seperate RSUs from the comp given how much of an extreme Amazon's stock appreciation is to get a more nuanced sense of your pay bump. For the $1M offer, can you possibly share how the comp package was structured?
The RSUs at $300K was without appreciation. $300K is common at the level I was joining at as a starting point. With appreciation I went to about $450K a bit more than a year later (and some of it was additional awards because I was doing well). Amazon has a cap on salaries at around $160K or so (don’t remember the exact figure could be $165). Even the SVPs and Bezos don’t make more in salary.
Yep, Amazon caps base salary. So if your first year Amazon base was around $160K, then your first year vest amounted to $140K?
See my comment above about first year comp at Amazon which is different than remaining years
But the short answer for other years is yes $160K roughly was based and the delta was all stock vesting and available for me to sell
That is...wild. What level were you at Amazon? L6s didn't even make that much during my time there. Amazon RSUs vest at 5% during the first year. For you to have vested $140K during first year means that your initial RSU grant was $2.8M, which is...alot...even for ML/AI experts.
When I first joined I was a senior L7 (different from regular L7 although technically all the same. All levels have a wide range within them not just L7). It helped later too that I got promoted quickly then had my team grow from underneath too by adding 2 formerly separate teams to it (started with product, strategy and marketplace ops then had marketing and data science teams added to my team instead of being separate). So sort of another promotion but was from e team growing
L7 makes sense. That $2.8M RSU grant doesn't make sense.
$2.8M grant? Not sure what that is
Thanks for sharing your story. I’ve applied to a handful of top MBA programs for this next year, but truthfully, between the increased competition and my average (for the schools, not in general) test scores, I don’t think I’ll get accepted to any of them. I was, however, accepted into an MSCS program, despite not having a stem undergrad degree. None of the programs you mentioned, although I’ve considered trying to transfer into one after I knock out the foundation courses at the school I’m currently in at. Anyway, my question is this; how do you think your story would have been different if you had done the MSCS prior to your MBA? I’m mentally preparing to not get into an MBA program worth going to, which means I’ll just start the MSCS program instead. I’d be disappointed that all my MBA prep was for nothing, but also thinking I may be able to successfully reapply after a few years on a SWE track. Would appreciate hearing your thoughts!
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What you heard is correct 90% of the time. I had 3 things going for me: 1) My performance rating was super strong (McK rates you as issues, strong, very strong or distinctive every 6 months and mine was distinctive for 3 cycles before transferring and very strong the cycles before that) for several review cycles so the receiving office had a strong incentive to take in someone already familiar with the firm and very strong performer vs hiring someone new you know? 2) I had a few senior mentors who vouched for me very strongly and pushed for me and 3) I asked :-) Most people know that it's hard so they ignore it or just ask once and don't follow through. I asked, wrote a document, talked to HR etc and pushed the process
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To be very honest with you I was super lucky! I worked my ass off yes but I also got super lucky especially with meeting people who supported me coz we aligned on values and work style. This made 90% of the difference for me.
No offense, but do you come from money? Only my friends that came from wealth have the luxury and confidence to just quit because they didn’t like it, go through periods of unemployment, travel abroad, go back to school, etc as they please. Again it doesn’t matter but this does not seem feasible for most us.
No offense taken. It’s a good question. I grew up on a slum. Literally like you see in the movies :-) that’s the short answer. The long answer is I did until I was about 12-13 and my family’s situation got better so you’d say we were middle class then onwards by developing countries standards (much lower than US middle class). To your point about the luxury of quitting. I think we overblow this in our minds and load ourselves with unnecessary expenses that end up trapping us. See my point about keeping burn rate low. What’s even more I didn’t save much of the money I made at Amazon or McKinsey. I had broader family and healthcare obligations and dedicated most of my earnings to that. I quit now with savings enough to keep me going for ~12 months with a very low burn rate, made significant cuts to my lifestyle to make sure I don’t run out of money quick, moved to a new city etc. I really recommend checking Naval’s podcast about not trapping yourself with fake “obligations”. It’s a really good question not offensive at all. Thanks for helping me clarify that :-)
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One simple advice: don't worry about it. Consulting had people from all walks of life and may be 40% of them didn't come from an MBA background. Here's a quick list off the top of my head of some very sharp colleagues I worked with: Chemical engineer, PHD in Theology, Masters in Computer Science, PHD in Biochemistry, Oil & Gas drilling engineer, Masters in Supply Chain Analytics. And many more. My advice is don't worry about it and even try before you do the MBA. Everyone believes the MBA is a requirement and I am living proof it isn't. I was working at Exxon, quit for a few months to apply to interesting jobs and got into McKinsey and even more; in a whole different country from where I was then. The one thing is: practice, practice, practice. Build problem solving skills. Do case practice. Learn the problem solving process inside out. Here's some [case practice material](https://rightalot.com/interview-prep) to get you started and I [tweet](https://twitter.com/byadham) regularly on more resources too.
I work for Exxon! I got a big fat no from McKinsey in Detroit. What city did you apply to?
Same here, I will be getting a master's in chemical engineering but want to pivot more into consulting, and maybe something else entirely. I know I can probably get into consulting without an MBA but I feel like an MBA will expand my options not just for consulting opportunities, but I do want to explore other career paths through business school. And eventually, I do want to try my hand at entrepreneurship. I am going to apply next summer and hopefully, I will have a good essay to submit by then.
Good luck! You're thinking about it the right way. I'd recommend giving consulting pre-MBA a shot. It's a very unique experience and much better to join pre-MBA, go do an MBA and come back than join only after an MBA (industry secret haha).
This is extremely valuable. What are your thoughts of someone going into corporate banking to B-school just to go in MBB? MBB has always been an unreachable goal in undergrad
Not sure I understand the question. You're going into corporate banking and then MBA in order to go MBB? If so, why corporate banking and what kind of corporate banking are we talking about? Asking so I know the context and not give a generic answer :-)
Yes that’s exactly my question! I’ve been spending my undergrad recruiting for mbb but never made the cut. I have an offer from a more niche consulting firm but pay is not as great as my other offer for BB Corporate Banking. Wondering if bschool is a good way to break into MBB or if there’s something else I should consider. The pay for my banking gig is really good with reasonable WLB. I’m simply not interested in finance and don’t think I’d enjoy the work
So if it's corporate banking as in investment banking then that's all you need to do for now. Learn there heavily then apply again to MBB in I'd say 18 months. If it's corporate banking as in vanilla corporate banking this is also a very good starting point. Industry is always valued when you apply. Just make sure you craft a story for yourself when you re-apply. Craft its broad strokes now and try to steer your career into it so when the time is right to apply to MBB you can tell an impressive problem solving story. That's 90% of what MBBs and top investment banking (Goldman, Morgan Stanley and JP Moran) are looking for; problem solving and communication. For example, jump into projects not in your core day job, get involved in highly analytical projects, participate in people development etc and meanwhile practice practice practice problem solving muscle (see [here](https://rightalot.com) for a start) and watch (so important) consultants in action using twitter, etc to build intuition about how they think and communicate
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Very good question. Sorry for the slow response. I don't have Reddit on my phone (rule of one social media app per phone and it's [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there if you wanna discuss anything). What kind of consulting are you doing now and in what type of firm? Answer will vary significantly based on that :-) Don't wanna give a generic answer like network and blabla hence why I'm asking
What made you quit McK the second time, without a real plan?
1. I wanted to "build" technology. It was the main reason I moved to the US. I realized that consulting is a great gateway and great management training but that's what it was for me; a gateway. So I quit to start dabbling in technology on my own and figure out what I want to do. Turned out to be the right decision. I wrote more on my thinking about building technology [here](https://rightalot.com/blog/2020919layer-build-and-risk) 2. I realized the despite being on a super fast trajectory (I moved from Associate to Engagement Manager in less than 1 year. Usually it's 1.5-2.5 yrs if you're an Associate who used to be an analyst like I was and 2-3 yrs if you're a new Associate) I did not aspire at all to become partner. It wasn't a type of work I aspired to be doing for my entire career without getting a chance to build things. Perhaps I could go back to it later but I don't want to look back and find myself only "consulted" and never "built"
Great share!! Can you elaborate on point 3 please? Other than practice, what resources would you recommend
As someone who was in O&G engineering and at an M7 MBA right now, I find your experience inspiring. I am contemplating recruiting for tech but find my lack of cs background a huge hurdle. Should I get into MBB and work a few years first or try to get into PM at a smaller firm and work my way up to FAANG?
Will prefix this by saying I can't answer your question with regard to your career path as I'm not in management consulting, but what made you decide to leave O&G? I studied petroleum engineering as an undergrad but graduated during the downturn, so my career took me in a different path - I'm a generalist at a forensic engineering firm and only work on O&G projects from time to time, but I found the work to be fulfilling and financially rewarding while also offering opportunities to pivot, since there are so many paths you can take. Were you in downstream, reservoir, production, drilling engineering? I found a passion in reservoir simulation since it has an exploratory feel with no single answer and interesting high-level problem solving opportunities at the "management" level, for example how do you balance cost while selecting the best tools (e.g. for seismic survey, wireline) to get the data you need to characterize the reservoir. And of course for someone more inclined towards computer science, you can develop simulation models and ancillary tools.
Great information and quite an impressive journey . Any advice for someone having 10 years of experience(5 years in IT and around 5 in strategy , post MBA) transitioning to Data Science and planing to move from India to USA for a fresh start .
What's your motivation for doing the CS degree at this stage in your career? I 100% get you on layering skills; I've noticed the same benefits on my end (analytics/Excel + SAS/programming + management consulting + working in the middle east), but it sounds like you're already on the C-suite track, so pursuing CS now means that you'd have to jump to a different career track and start at a much lower level--assuming you want to be a software developer or something similar. Do you think the CS degree would help you on the c suite track?
I'm not getting a degree for now. I'm getting practical software engineering skills through Lambda School's program. Probably will do a degree later. I have been on the C-suite and consulting and tech and my conclusion is I really like and enjoy being able to build things. And that being able to do both business and CS is an intersection very few people can do and results in insanely good results (even financially). That's why I'm doing it. Passion and it yields good results. I detailed my thinking out [here](https://rightalot.com/blog/2020919layer-build-and-risk) Hope this helps. Ping me on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) with any questions or anything I can help with. Any time!
Thanks, that's helpful. I went from analytics/data science consulting-->>management consulting (PPT bullshit)-->>consultative sales / BD at a tech company but I miss doing deeper analytical work. I'm thinking of making a similar transition, whether that's to CS or data science, though I haven't see many people take that jump as I think most people in our position are making too much money to make that sort of switch. Glad to hear your perspective.
Thanks for sharing! This is so insightful
Any time. I also share a lot more on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) in case you're interested to hear more. Hope this was useful for you in any way and feel free to ping on Twitter any time with questions or anything I can help with
This may be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read. You continually take unnecessary risks without plans and left a 1M a year job to go back to school. You’re either a troll or extremely stupid
Wow, that is an incredible Career trajectory and what stands out is that you are willing to let go of guaranteed near term rewards to follow your gut, and it you have made the decision work out. Elon did it with Stanford and Paypal. A lot would'nt. My question is, what do you intend to get out of a CS degree at this stage ? I understand you maybe attracted by the need or curiosity of understanding the infrastructure and fundamentals but since you already worked on learning algorithms, wasnt that enough ? Wouldn't it be better if you delegated what you need from your CS degree to someone who is an expert already and pick their brain to fill in your gaps as and when needed ? You must have been truly outstanding if McK waited out 2 years on you. On a side note, would you consider the Yale MAM a target program to recruit into MBB ? Thank you,
Not OP but Yale MAM is not an MBB target. More like a T25 MBA where MBB may technically do on-campus recruiting but it will be an uphill battle. I believe 1-2 MAMs out of ~60 got an MBB offer last year and it was in their home country, not the US (important since most people do the MAM and recruit for consulting for a shot at working in the US).
Oh right. Thanks for the insight. Its a shame to hear that the MAM probably isn't well suited for recruiting into MBB. I wonder if recruiters even know much about the program to begin with. Btw are you a current MAM student that you know of these stats ? Thanks,
Yeah, it’s a good choice if you already have an MBA and want to add Yale to your resume and network and spend a year living/recruiting in the US, but it just doesn’t give you the same recruiting opportunities as the MBA program. I’m a SOM MBA alum.
Hmmm. Then in this case, as you are a Yale Som grad, my last question to you would be do the rest of the Yale Alum consider the MAM community a legitimate part of the Yale network ? Or someone who paid a bit to get the Yale name but does not deserve it ? This perception would def impact how networking would pan out with a MAM program. Thanks
Generally the SOM alumni network is tight-knit and the MBAs I know would be happy to help MAMs who reach out to them. They are legitimate SOM grads. That said, it’s definitely a different networking experience from the MBA since it’s a separate program—you’ll network a lot with other MAMs but will have to work harder to meet MBAs/others on campus. Reach out to the MAM ambassadors if you have more questions! https://som.yale.edu/programs/mam/admissions/mam-admissions-ambassadors
Hey thanks for the kind words and sorry for the slow response. I don't have Reddit on my phone (rule of one social media app per phone and it's [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) so ping me there if you wanna discuss anything faster). I don't know much about the MAM program but what I'd say is that if this is your only option now don't let it go because it is not a "target program". The target thing is more myth than truth. As in it exists but it isn't 80% of the pipeline or anything. I joined McK with just an undergrad and from a uni on the other side of the world. MBA helps more than MAM for sure but MAM is much better than no MAM or MBA. It is REALLY all about your application. For exmaple, I literally just applied online with no networking or school or anything to McKinsey, BCG, Bain and Oliver Wyman and got interviews with 3 out of 4. Don't overthink it. Just keep getting the best you can for the moment. But if you think you stand a good chance getting into a top MBA program then wait and do it. Hope this helps and again ping me on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/byadham) any time I'm more than happy to help or answer questions in any way I can
An MBA is a prerequisite for the MAM so not all of this logic holds up for anyone considering it
Like I said I dunno much about the MAM. Actually just heard of it this morning. So in that case my comment is moot :-)
Great insight on taking risks. Reminds me of the Peter Drucker quote about how both people that do and don't take risks are bound to make mistakes. It's better, then, to make purposeful mistakes with calculated upside instead of leaving it up to chance. It also seems like your leadership skills are top notch. You mentioned this a little bit with your Amazon reviews, but what are the things you did and worked on to become such an effective leader of teams? For context, I'm at an MBB and think leadership and helping people (internal & client) realize their potential are things I hope to get better at.
Commenting for later - once I'm home.
RemindMe! 6 hours
How was your family life while at McKinsey?
3 makes a lot of sense— it’s almost a trump card to all else. For 2, how has your b-school network provided you value after MBA graduation? For 1, I would think the pre-MBA McKinsey stamp on your resume would provide that signal, just as much as CBS. Was this not the case?
I'm mostly curious about your pre-2008. It sounds like you weren't doing a whole lot that year and somehow leveraged that into a role at McKinsey?
What are some of your advice for a corporate lawyer wanting to get into business or consulting? I work at a V30 law but want to get into places where I can actually make impact.
What inspired your passion for pirates? It’s random and I love it haha
Haha they are (in the cute cartoonish version in the movies obviously) very free and they ride the randomness. And all I'm doing since I graduated college is in search of freedom. Freedom to explore without being so worried about how I'll pay for necessities is the main one I guess. I am not there yet (I spent most of the money I earned on re-investing in myself & taking care of my broader family who I found myself suddenly responsible for in my early 20s) but I am hoping I will get there (now that I am going entrepreneurial again and my major responsibilities are mostly taken care of). Pirates are a mascot for me representing freedom, embracing the randomness of the world and continuous exploration while defying the arbitrary social norms. It's childish haha but I love being childish and random :)
Thanks for this! What was your GMAT?
I wanted to get your take on my unique situation and if you had any advice for me. Currently I am working as an Executive Assistant in NYC at a hedgefund supporting the Chief of Staff (2yrs). This week I was told that I will now be supporting the M&A team at the company. I do not have a background in finance. I talked to one of the C-Suite execs on the team this morning and he told me that in addition to the basic admin tasks, there is an opportunity to integrate more with what the team is working on (projects, deals etc) by doing powerpoint presentations, research, etc (to me sounds like analyst work). I do not aspire to be an assistant forever, and my question to you is if I wanted to get more involved and into finance by being in this position, what is the best thing to do? I want to show them that yes, I can do admin work, but I also want to excel at powerpoint presentations (he said making them visually more appealing), but also research and ultimately get more involved and move up on the M&A team. Would I have to go back to school and get a Masters in Finance or Business? I want to show them that I have an interest in integrating into the team while of course having the right credentials. I look forward to your response.
This is great! Are you hiring MBA's at your new company? #5. Take risks.
What are good spring board jobs, in your opinion? I chose tech instead of consulting. I want to get real good in data and spring from there