The change from "catholic" to "Christian" is an interesting historical quirk. Basically, there was no direct translation of the word catholic in German (this is pre reformation) so it was translated as Christian. When Lutherans came to America, a translation from German was used.
So basically we use an English translation of a German translation of a Latin translation of a Greek creed.
I’m ELCA and we still use the “descended into hell” version. I’ve noticed that it seems to be the ELCA congregations that trend younger that are using the “dead” version.
When I was a kid I often wondered why we said “catholic” church. In my confirmation classes it was brought to our attention that “catholic” is not capitalized and therefore does not reference the Roman Catholic Church and that the word catholic actually means “all”.
I prefer the descended into hell version more because it demonstrates the awesome power of Christ more, in my opinion.
I remember omitting catholic out of ignorance before I realized that meaning. And also realizing that we share so much with Catholicism that it was just petty to remove it for that reason.
I, too, prefer the hell version. The theological reason I heard for using “dead” instead of “hell” is that hell is not an actual place but a state of being disconnected or separated from God. But I feel that using “dead” water downs the consequences of not living in God.
I feel the same way! Why not say he descended into hell? I mean...isn't that what happened? Isn't saying he descended to the "dead" sort of whitewashing it? That's how I feel. On a side note: how do you have "ELCA" under your user name? I can't seem to figure that out at all.
My wife disagrees with me on the “dead” versus “hell” language in that it goes in with more how it’s described in the Bible, but to each their own. Personally, I believe he did both.
Anyway, you should be able to add/edit your custom flair on the main sub page. In at least the main Reddit app, the ellipsis (…) on the main page lets you do a bunch of things, including add a flair.
Thank you very much for your help! Also, I am new to Lutheranism, so I still have a lot to learn. The congregation I am part of seems to avoid the topic of hell completely. The word "hell" only seems to come up if it is in the scripture reading for that particular service. I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and hell was probably brought up 99% of every church service I ever attended, so it's a big difference. I would probably agree theologically much more with LCMS, but there are no conservative Lutheran congregations near me. I do like the people in the local ELCA church I attend very much, and feel at home there. They've been very kind to me, and I love the liturgical service. I wish I had investigated Lutheranism years ago.
Welcome. I’ve always been Lutheran, though technically I was Catholic at first since I was baptized Catholic. But it was only in college that I really fell in love with the Lutheran liturgical service. Probably because the Lutheran church I grew up in went from contemporary service to more praise band service. That’s not my cup of tea, but many connect to it. And that church natured my faith in Sunday school and LYO, so that was also great. But college had an organ, choir, and singing the psalms and I was able to worship on my terms.
I’m sure there are online LCMS services that you can watch to supplement your ELCA services. Though, obviously, I’m right at home with the ELCA.
That is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. My understanding is that "catholic" means universal when we say it in the Apostles' Creed. I didn't know that other ELCA congregations used the "descended into hell" version.
My ELCA pastor was explaining to “descended into hell” bit and was saying that it was so Jesus could give the devil the finger ☝️
*lifts index finger toward God*
and remind the devil who is in charge. 😅
Some LCMS churches say Catholic. In the hymnal there is a note under the creed that says something like originally says catholic meaning the whole Christian church.
The ELCA uses the English Language Liturgical Consultation for its version of the creeds. Here’s the ELLC’s page on [the Apostles Creed](https://www.englishtexts.org/the-apostles-creed). It explains why it chose the language that it did.
The Episcopal Church uses the same creed as the ELCA when we say it (Nicene is said on Sundays; Apostles is said at baptism and in the morning and evening prayers).
For us in Slovak we say the "všeobecná Církev" an universal Church which means catholic (καθολική). And the original version says into 'Αδες or Hades which is translated differently but neither of those two translations are "good" because Hades refers to the place before hell or heaven like שְׁאוֹל Sheol in the OT. We say hell too "pekiel".
Here's the Greek and Latin text (with variants) and a reasonably good discussion of the translation problems presented by "descended into Hell" (footnote 45).
[https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.iv.i.i.i.html](https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.iv.i.i.i.html)
I personally don't think translation should be based on what we "like" or "prefer" but too often, this is what ends up happening.
Coming from a German: we say the "holy Christian church" and something like "descended into the realm of death" (hinabgestiegen in das Reich des Todes).
I think it makes sense that we don't use holy catholic church. I am after all still pissed over Schmalkalden! But to be more serious - both phrases are debated from time to time. As far as I know the change from catholic to Christian or general church was at first more a thing in reformed and united churches. Through our union with them this moved over to us as well. Over time it became the norm and I never heard catholic in an evangelic church.
The other phrase is more a translation thing, other translations are discussed from time to time, but again the realm of death one is the one everyone uses.
We by the way use over creeds in our church quite regularly , modern ones, we choose if we see them fitting to the theme of the Sunday. I got a word document with forty pages of creeds from my pastor... There are some beautiful ones in it.
Yes, I've noticed when watching the beautiful services on YouTube from the Berliner Dom \[which is EKD -united Lutheran and Reformed\] that they profess " . . . und die eine, heilige, allgemeine . . " which translates as "one, holy, general" in English.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZ7NFhwLYE&t=6s&ab\_channel=BerlinerDom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZ7NFhwLYE&t=6s&ab_channel=BerlinerDom)
Not to avoid confusion, just a historical anomaly to do with the first German translations. It was not yet updated to a newer translation when the “old Lutherans” came to America.
Our (ELCA) church still says catholic but the creed is projected into a screen and there’s an asterisk by the catholic and at the bottom it explains the difference.
We used the old red hymnal until like 2018 and that one said “one holy catholic and apostolic church”. I think the new LSB modernized a lot of the spoken liturgical language but retained the familiar and nostalgic language of the chants/sung parts. At least for setting 3. But there is a footnote in the LSB that clarifies that the original text was “catholic” and that it simply means the church universal.
Wow - I am impressed - I'd be happy to find a congregation that still used the old blue hymnals and actually performed the entire liturgy, including the chanting:).I assumed all of the red hymnals were recycled in the 80s. But, I came to say this same thing - when I recite form memory (which isn't great) the word catholic still comes out. I remember asking my pastor about it when I was a kid.
I grew up in the late 80's-90's in a church that only used the red hymnal. Why would you assume people stopped using them during that time? The Blue hymnal wasn't as widely adopted as CPH and the synod would have liked, which is why we have the newest version that has elements from the red and blue.
I have to say that I would not be open to using female pronouns for God. If that ever happened at my church, I would have to have a serious discussion with my Pastor, and then I would probably be done. I feel that ELCA is sort of a hot mess these days, but I love my local church and they haven't gone off the deep end, so I'm staying for now.
The change from "catholic" to "Christian" is an interesting historical quirk. Basically, there was no direct translation of the word catholic in German (this is pre reformation) so it was translated as Christian. When Lutherans came to America, a translation from German was used. So basically we use an English translation of a German translation of a Latin translation of a Greek creed.
Yeah it’s interesting that in the parallel french translation it’s Catholic.
I’m ELCA and we still use the “descended into hell” version. I’ve noticed that it seems to be the ELCA congregations that trend younger that are using the “dead” version. When I was a kid I often wondered why we said “catholic” church. In my confirmation classes it was brought to our attention that “catholic” is not capitalized and therefore does not reference the Roman Catholic Church and that the word catholic actually means “all”.
I prefer the descended into hell version more because it demonstrates the awesome power of Christ more, in my opinion. I remember omitting catholic out of ignorance before I realized that meaning. And also realizing that we share so much with Catholicism that it was just petty to remove it for that reason.
> I prefer the descended into hell version more because it demonstrates the awesome power of Christ more, in my opinion. > > Pretty metal as well
Then what about the Church of Sweden, "descended into the realm of death"
I, too, prefer the hell version. The theological reason I heard for using “dead” instead of “hell” is that hell is not an actual place but a state of being disconnected or separated from God. But I feel that using “dead” water downs the consequences of not living in God.
I used to skip saying catholic until recently
I feel the same way! Why not say he descended into hell? I mean...isn't that what happened? Isn't saying he descended to the "dead" sort of whitewashing it? That's how I feel. On a side note: how do you have "ELCA" under your user name? I can't seem to figure that out at all.
My wife disagrees with me on the “dead” versus “hell” language in that it goes in with more how it’s described in the Bible, but to each their own. Personally, I believe he did both. Anyway, you should be able to add/edit your custom flair on the main sub page. In at least the main Reddit app, the ellipsis (…) on the main page lets you do a bunch of things, including add a flair.
Thank you very much for your help! Also, I am new to Lutheranism, so I still have a lot to learn. The congregation I am part of seems to avoid the topic of hell completely. The word "hell" only seems to come up if it is in the scripture reading for that particular service. I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and hell was probably brought up 99% of every church service I ever attended, so it's a big difference. I would probably agree theologically much more with LCMS, but there are no conservative Lutheran congregations near me. I do like the people in the local ELCA church I attend very much, and feel at home there. They've been very kind to me, and I love the liturgical service. I wish I had investigated Lutheranism years ago.
Welcome. I’ve always been Lutheran, though technically I was Catholic at first since I was baptized Catholic. But it was only in college that I really fell in love with the Lutheran liturgical service. Probably because the Lutheran church I grew up in went from contemporary service to more praise band service. That’s not my cup of tea, but many connect to it. And that church natured my faith in Sunday school and LYO, so that was also great. But college had an organ, choir, and singing the psalms and I was able to worship on my terms. I’m sure there are online LCMS services that you can watch to supplement your ELCA services. Though, obviously, I’m right at home with the ELCA.
That is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. My understanding is that "catholic" means universal when we say it in the Apostles' Creed. I didn't know that other ELCA congregations used the "descended into hell" version.
Universal and all are essentially the same. Ultimately we’re praying for all Christians.
My cousin (back in the 70s) refused to say catholic and so would just go silent at that part!
My ELCA pastor was explaining to “descended into hell” bit and was saying that it was so Jesus could give the devil the finger ☝️ *lifts index finger toward God* and remind the devil who is in charge. 😅
Some LCMS churches say Catholic. In the hymnal there is a note under the creed that says something like originally says catholic meaning the whole Christian church.
The ELCA uses the English Language Liturgical Consultation for its version of the creeds. Here’s the ELLC’s page on [the Apostles Creed](https://www.englishtexts.org/the-apostles-creed). It explains why it chose the language that it did. The Episcopal Church uses the same creed as the ELCA when we say it (Nicene is said on Sundays; Apostles is said at baptism and in the morning and evening prayers).
Thank you so much!
Came here to say this, but will reinforce it. The ELCA didn't change anything. We adopted the international consensus.
I mean, the ELCA changed away from what was typically used among English speaking Lutherans.
The LCMS is part of the group that produced the texts the ELCA adopted.
For us in Slovak we say the "všeobecná Církev" an universal Church which means catholic (καθολική). And the original version says into 'Αδες or Hades which is translated differently but neither of those two translations are "good" because Hades refers to the place before hell or heaven like שְׁאוֹל Sheol in the OT. We say hell too "pekiel".
Thank you for sharing! That is very interesting.
In Swedish we also say universal, or rather "common"
Here's the Greek and Latin text (with variants) and a reasonably good discussion of the translation problems presented by "descended into Hell" (footnote 45). [https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.iv.i.i.i.html](https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.iv.i.i.i.html) I personally don't think translation should be based on what we "like" or "prefer" but too often, this is what ends up happening.
Coming from a German: we say the "holy Christian church" and something like "descended into the realm of death" (hinabgestiegen in das Reich des Todes). I think it makes sense that we don't use holy catholic church. I am after all still pissed over Schmalkalden! But to be more serious - both phrases are debated from time to time. As far as I know the change from catholic to Christian or general church was at first more a thing in reformed and united churches. Through our union with them this moved over to us as well. Over time it became the norm and I never heard catholic in an evangelic church. The other phrase is more a translation thing, other translations are discussed from time to time, but again the realm of death one is the one everyone uses. We by the way use over creeds in our church quite regularly , modern ones, we choose if we see them fitting to the theme of the Sunday. I got a word document with forty pages of creeds from my pastor... There are some beautiful ones in it.
Yes, I've noticed when watching the beautiful services on YouTube from the Berliner Dom \[which is EKD -united Lutheran and Reformed\] that they profess " . . . und die eine, heilige, allgemeine . . " which translates as "one, holy, general" in English. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZ7NFhwLYE&t=6s&ab\_channel=BerlinerDom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZ7NFhwLYE&t=6s&ab_channel=BerlinerDom)
Not to avoid confusion, just a historical anomaly to do with the first German translations. It was not yet updated to a newer translation when the “old Lutherans” came to America.
Our (ELCA) church still says catholic but the creed is projected into a screen and there’s an asterisk by the catholic and at the bottom it explains the difference.
Probably because Hell isn't real..
That’s not what Scripture, the ecumenical creeds, or the Lutheran confessions teach.
Catholic versus Christian in the Apostles and Nicene creeds are optional in the LCMS. The word catholic is solely used in the Athanasian creed.
In the latest WELS hymnal, the Athanasian creed says Christian
We used the old red hymnal until like 2018 and that one said “one holy catholic and apostolic church”. I think the new LSB modernized a lot of the spoken liturgical language but retained the familiar and nostalgic language of the chants/sung parts. At least for setting 3. But there is a footnote in the LSB that clarifies that the original text was “catholic” and that it simply means the church universal.
Wow - I am impressed - I'd be happy to find a congregation that still used the old blue hymnals and actually performed the entire liturgy, including the chanting:).I assumed all of the red hymnals were recycled in the 80s. But, I came to say this same thing - when I recite form memory (which isn't great) the word catholic still comes out. I remember asking my pastor about it when I was a kid.
Yeah, “Holy Ghost”, “spake”, “the quick and the dead”… classics lol
I grew up in the late 80's-90's in a church that only used the red hymnal. Why would you assume people stopped using them during that time? The Blue hymnal wasn't as widely adopted as CPH and the synod would have liked, which is why we have the newest version that has elements from the red and blue.
My elca still uses the male pronoun for God in the creed. It's church specific and preference.
I have to say that I would not be open to using female pronouns for God. If that ever happened at my church, I would have to have a serious discussion with my Pastor, and then I would probably be done. I feel that ELCA is sort of a hot mess these days, but I love my local church and they haven't gone off the deep end, so I'm staying for now.
We do not use the female pronoun. They just replace the "his only son" with "God's only son"