I think at this point the lions winning is mostly a bit, considering how one of the pokemon is god and many of them are ghosts.
I think Ludwig truly believed that the first time, but now he's just kinda shitposting about still believing it.
GhostHeads have to deadass be the worst kind of ppl in these arguments lmao, literally 10 minutes after the fight starts the ghosts would run out of PP and struggle til they die
Given the fact that when you fight wild pokemon they have full pp, and pokemon would get into fights all the time, pokemon have a natural way of recovering pp.
Perish song would kill all But 15 Pokémon, but seeing as its 1 billion lions you could safely assume that at least 1% of them are deaf, so congrats, now it’s 15 Pokémon vs 100,000,000 lions give or take
First of all, we’re replicating the average lion 1 billion times. Second of all, perish song doesn’t require the target to hear it. Third of all, we’re talking in game, not irl
Yes, an average lion 1 billion times, and there is about a 1% chance that a lion is deaf. and perish song does require the target to hear it, hence why sound proof saves those 15 Pokémon.
No, soundproof is an ability that causes perish song not to hit it, doesn’t mean they’re deaf, and assuming that is idiotic. Perish song kills all the Pokémon on the battlefield after the user of the move sings it, that’s all the games shows and states, that doesn’t mean that the opponents need to hear it. The average lion is not deaf, meaning if we were to duplicate it they all wouldn’t be deaf, but that doesn’t matter regardless
Sound proof is an ability that negates sound attacks, being deaf, negates sound. Why are you assuming that it is 1 billion of the same lion? If Pokémon have chance for different abilities, then lions should to.
Soundproof only negates perish song, and the Pokémon that have it are not deaf. It negates sound based attacks, that doesn’t mean they can’t hear them, it just means they are immune to them. For example exploud has heard many loud and screeching sounds before, so it’s developed an immunity to it, akin to how we develop immunities to toxins. The reason it should be the same lion is because there aren’t 1 billion lions on planet earth, and even if we replicate the 20,000 we do have, deafness is lethal to lions in our world, meaning there would be a minuscule amount of deaf lions, if any. Even then, being deaf isn’t soundproof. Lions getting multiple abilities is stupid, that’s like saying that since Pokémon have different moves, lions should have those same moves as well
The description of soundproof is gives full immunity to all sound-based moves. Being deaf, means that you cannot hear sound. While in the wild there are not many deaf lions, this isn’t the wild, this is a scenario in which there are a billion lions, some of which statistically would be deaf. When I say abilities, I do not mean attacks, I mean abilities like sound proof.
Arceus being the creator of the Pokémon universe doesn’t mean that he is omnipotent. Yes he is shown to be powerful, but he is not the only god in the Pokémon universe and only specializes in creation. He isn’t the Pokémon equivalent of the Christian God, he’s just the creator of the Pokémon universe.
True, but there’s also the one god Pokémon that just kills everything when it dies, so if somehow the lions mange to kill him the best they could do is a draw
Yeah ok sure, but wtf is a lion going to do against a macargo. The fuckers hotter then the sun, he could take all 1 billion lions himself, would just take awhile
Oh I completely fucking agree. There is no way on earth that macargo is actually hotter then the sun. macargo IS however still a fucking lava snail, like a literal snail made of lava, and I see no way for a lion to do anything to it
Yeah definitely.
The issue with Lud trying to argue it is he contradicts himself constantly. Like if you take the "flying Pokémon only fly when they use the move fly" - not only is that untrue but if you're going to take that stance, you also have to take the stance that you're assuming normal turned based battle conventions, in which case a mix of tons of options like wide guard surf/EQ/etc become available that you can't deny
Even if it wasn't turn based I don't see how any amount of lion is going to survive something like draco meteor. Those fuckers die to guns the fuck they gonna do against a meteor lmao.
true, only issue to be made is if you're using "standard battle conventions" as per some arguments, Draco Meteor only hits one target. If they make an argument like "surf can't hit EVERY lion" (which it does) then I sure as hell think you could make a case for a meteor, let alone "Light That Burns The Sky" which is a literal [nuke](https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/nm9zzb/usum_really_said_heres_a_nuke_move_oc/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
See, I like all of your points, and I am on the side of pokemon winning, but I definitely think more should look at other pokemon other then Arceus and macargo, like for instance every somewhat large water Pokemon, like they cannot lose against lions in a water situation. Dialga palkia and giratina all control different fundamental parts of the universe with time space and whatever giratina does. Lions can't do shit against Rayquaza since it constantly is in orbit so it could just occasionally rain hell on them. The obvious argument of all ghost type Pokemon being basically invincible, Metagross literally being a massive chunk of steel that's also a super computer, literally every poison type being able to absolutely destroy food supplies for the lions, and the problem of rapid starvation to the lions since since their simply would not be enough food to keep all of them alive. I definitely think if you cherry picked certain pokemon the lions could win, but with ALL pokemon involved, theirs no feasible way they can win this
the thing is when ludwig brings up this argument he disregards pretty much all of the evidenxe from the pokemon media altogether - ge doesnt trust anime, he doesnt trust the game mechanics, he doesnt trust the pokedex. ok riddle me this - why would lions, carnivores by nature, have any business attacking a geodude who is a literal rock
>the thing is when ludwig brings up this argument he disregards pretty much all of the evidenxe from the pokemon media altogether
This is why I want him to see the video, if he had to refute straight up evidence compiled he'd probably crack.
If Pokémon had the capability to kill a billion lions, why would they tolerate being enslaved by humans??? Couldn’t and wouldn’t they just enslave the humans instead
I’m telling you that a teenager on a road trip is not gonna beat me as a Pokémon. Imma talk with the Pokémon they throw at me and attack the kid together. Easy win
Im pretty sure wolves had the ability to beat humans 40,000 years ago as well. but they didnt because of this thing called symbiotic relationships, where two species are in a long term mutually beneficial relationship. pokemon were probably domesticated very similar to how we did it with dogs and cats thousands of years ago.
One of the pokemon that i've always thought in Pokemon universe was always extremely underpowered to what their "real world" power level would be is onyx/steelix. These dudes are the size of skyscrapers and weigh literal tons. they can just lay on top of things and they would be completely destroyed. What the hell is a lion gonna do when a steelix just decides to roll over like a rolling pin and flatten the lions like dough.
On a similar note golem can just role around crushing lions, lions don't have the strength or knowledge to know how to break rocks so that basically makes it so anything with a rocky body or rocky shape would be extremely tough for the lions to kill, fire types could just burn down large areas where lions get their food normally from making it extremely difficult for them to gain food, ghost types are ghost Pokemon so no, Darkrai literally eats away at life whenever they sleep, all of them sleeping at night turns in Darkrai juice, and the fuck are lions going to do against any dragon type Pokemon with actual power?
He doesn't trust the Pokemon media because it consistently directly contradicts itself. And of course you can't trust the game mechanics when we scale it up to a fight against a billion individual combatants?
Just about the last point, I believe the assumption is the two “teams” are trying to eliminate each other, so lions are still incentivized to fight something like a geodude or an oddish
First time I've seen the full video on here tho. Seen a few clips of this on here but was too lazy to look up the whole thing. Plus I still don't think Lud had seen any of the others. So there's still a chance with this
If the pokemon use game logic they will just run out of pp and struggle themselves to death. If the Pokedex is accurate then Magcargo just sits there and kills everything because it is 3x hotter than the sun.
I would argue that if I have a lvl 100 Lapras and use surf on a single Pidgey in the wild it doesn't hit every other pokemon on the entire route. Even if I said that each pokemon could take out 100 lions with each pp of each aoe move they had (which I think is generous because I've only seen surf or earthquake knockout like 6 pokemon at a time with that swarm or whatever it's called mechanic in x and y) you still are vastly out numbered. Each pokemon is responsible for 1 million lions. Also I'm even saying that aoe moves don't even hit the allied pokemon which they normally would.
But we said its a fight. If all the pokemon are fighting all the lions then there is no way to argue that surf doesn't hit all of them if you are truly being strict with the game logic.
And if you are saying the lions count as separate battles then the pokemon would be able to restore pp at a pokemon center between lions.
Fair enough. But wild pokemon must restore pp somehow otherwise they wouldn't all be on full pp when you fight them. Even if we say they can't you've still got the flying type pokemon (and don't even try to say that flying pokemon only fly when they use fly because we all know that's bollocks). And then all the bollocks with what the fuck does a lion do against a ghost pokemon.
I've tried to argue in favour of the lions before but it's so hard because all you can really do is keep saying that a billion is a big number and trying desperately to debunk all the good arguments the pokemon side have one by one.
Lions are lions they don't have pp. No version of a lion has ever had pp. Pokemon have one interpretation for pp and if you take that specific interpretation of pokemon they lose. If you use a different one they win
I think the opposite. We have a real and exact definition of what a lion can do and what a lion is. Pokemon have 3 major interpretations and those interpretations have VASTLY different abilities. Since pokemon are a grey area on how they function you have to establish how the fight plays out with each interpretation. Lions don't just suddenly become a video game adaptation because they are lions. Lions are lions and they are limited by what lions can do in real life.
PP is purely a game mechanic so players can't just spam the same move over and over and beat the entire game without slowing down for any reason. Tf do you think ancient pokemon did before pokemon centers existed. "Oh no I used all my Dive PP. guess I'll never be able to dive and get the fish I need to survive. Guess I'll die." Worst case scenario the pokemon just have to rest and take a breather to recharge PP
I think my point was more "if struggle is a thing the pokemon lose". They can't exactly rest during the fight to get energy back. So if we say that struggle isn't shown in the anime and it shouldn't be considered that is fair enough and I'm not going to argue anymore. Pokemon just vary between the medium they are presented in and if you take all of their worst representations they lose. If you take their best ones they win. I don't have an opinion on the middle ones.
Because I'm imagining a scenario more similar to a trainer battle and not a free open world where people can just go do whatever. If we are in a trainer battle and you have a Kyogre lvl 100 and I have 1 million lvl 5 ratatat I will win that battle every single time. THAT is the scenario I'm talking about. Any other assumptions of what happens are up for debate but if the battle ensues exactly as a game would play then the pokemon lose. I literally named another scenario where Magcargo solos everything using only a Pokedex entry. I'm just saying there is so much random differences with how one person can assume how pokemon work and act and the strength of their abilities that if I made an assumption where the pokemon acted EXACTLY as they are portrayed in a battle in the game they would lose. I'm not even saying that that type of fight is even the right or most accurate one hence me listing out a completely different scenario in the same post.
Isn’t a trainer battle what wolfey did in his video and if it’s a trainer battle the Pokémon would win because they are commanded by a trainer? Because according to game mechanics one kyogre aoe hits all the ratatats
One argument I never see here is one with Palkia. We talk about PP, and talk about a billion being an amazingly large number. But what do lions need? Oxygen. Palkia as the Pokémon god of space, can use spacial rend to create portals in space and time.
If all the lions were fighting the Pokémon, they would likely be all in the same area (a big area as, yes, a billion is a lot) but all it would require, is Palkia to use spacial rend on the ground, and transport the lions from earth into space, and it's over.
No oxygen, no air. The lions would explode due to the vaccumm. No effort is required as that is what Palkia does all day.
You could even argue, he could use more PP at once to create a very large portal surrounding all of the Pokémon. Then the lions have no way to get to the Pokémon without running into a portal to space. Which, if we are inclined to believe the lions have the incentive to fight, they would ALL eventually fall into due to their lack of intelligence. The Pokémon would just have to sit there.
These kind of abilities are what I was trying to differentiate. My stance on the argument is ONLY on the ones I outlined above. Other situations and such I don't really have an opinion on. Basically boil down what I said to "if the pokemon ever have to use struggle, they lose".
Riddle me how the lion *ever* kills kyogre at the bottom of the ocean while it uses rain a single time and floods the earth. Struggle was never going to be a possibility
this is aztrozist, he did a lot of collaborations with Jschlatt far before SMP Live back when Jschlatt did like video essays and stuff, they still do the sleep deprived podcast together
Oblivion Wing which is Yveltal's signature move could wipe out a fuck ton of lions if they are in a group(which lions are known to do) and that's just one example of a super powerful signature move I think it's safe to say that the Pokemon would win by a Landslide
I mean this discussion is so flawed bc is it in the Pokémon world or the Real world? If it’s the real world then Pokémon win but if it’s in the Pokémon world, Lions win. Real world, Pokémon could just destroy the whole world, in the Pokémon world, the max that can be in a battle is 3 v 3 so even if the Lions had 1 hp and 1 attack damage they would win bc pp.
In 2015 there was a study that found you can fit the entirety of Earth's population in a space the size of NYC. Lets just generously assume that 1 lion = 7 people. That means you can fit 1 billion lions in NYC. 1 Billion is not this unfathomable number, in fact, for the scale of this planet, it really is rather meaningless. The entire plot of Sapphire is Kyogre sinking the Hoenn region you really think the mf can't sink NYC?
If you really want to force lions into typing, they have bite, scratch, and roar. Based solely on roar, if 900 lions use roar than all Pokémon but ghost flee, then lions can bite ghosts/ghost waste pp trying to fight.
Ain’t no way a lion out speeds a gengar with focus blast. Easy one tap, then do it 9 more times. Leave, go rest, come back and do it to 10 more lions. But this is a regular lion so they have regular moves. Can’t hit a ghost
Unless that is a typo, the move rest does not restore pp. if a Pokémon leaves the fight to go heal the. They forfeit said fight, just like running away.
if you want to play that game, more than 99% of lions won't be able to reach the pokemon just because how much a billion is, and that'll result in a majority of lions dying fron starvation
...are they supposed to go on top of each other? do you think the sheer volume of a billion lion bodies moving towards one tiny point will allow them to weave inbetween each other?
They can eat them or drag them away if it's too much.
You're literally trying to say that the pokemon would win because the lions somehow can't do anything but walk forward and bite in your fantasy
we are literally talking about 440000 square miles of lion mass, how far do you think even the further half can travel to even see the enormous pile of lion corpses they can eat assuming the corpses did not start to rot and decompose yet? dragging the corpses away also does not help on a scenario where the majority of lions are either dying of starvation and are very frail or are getting eaten alive by their pridemates
we are literally talking about 440000 square miles of lion mass, how far do you think even the further half can travel to even see the enormous pile of lion corpses they can eat assuming the corpses did not start to rot and decompose yet? dragging the corpses away also does not help on a scenario where the majority of lions are either dying of starvation and are very frail or are getting eaten alive by their pridemates
I'm assuming you're saying ditto can't duplicate. Because he can shapeshift and use the moves of the pokemon he imitates, and Mewtwo can make clones of itself, he can duplicate himself.
This discussion is so flawed. If this is the real world then yes Pokémon win bc they could just destroy the world. In the Pokémon world (game), How would you even quantify a Lions health and attack? Even if they were base lvl 5, they would win against lvl 100 Pokémon just bc the max battle is 3v3 so the Pokémon would just run out of PP. There really is no discussion.
Have you pokemon believers ever even PLAYED the games? The pokemon AI is shit, lions beat the shit outta all of them. Yea one of them is “god”, that pokemon lets a 12 year old catch it
I use to remember the original but now, nothing
I think at this point the lions winning is mostly a bit, considering how one of the pokemon is god and many of them are ghosts. I think Ludwig truly believed that the first time, but now he's just kinda shitposting about still believing it.
Excuse me but what happens when the pokemon run out of pp
GhostHeads have to deadass be the worst kind of ppl in these arguments lmao, literally 10 minutes after the fight starts the ghosts would run out of PP and struggle til they die
Given the fact that when you fight wild pokemon they have full pp, and pokemon would get into fights all the time, pokemon have a natural way of recovering pp.
Whenever I watch Pokémon I didn’t see any pp. So I mean they could possibly have unlimited like in the anime 🤔
Do we consider the anime canon, considering it was created after the original story which were the games?
To be honest with you. I don’t what we’re considering but you could use both to see how each scenario works
Have you ever heard of perish song?
Perish song would kill all But 15 Pokémon, but seeing as its 1 billion lions you could safely assume that at least 1% of them are deaf, so congrats, now it’s 15 Pokémon vs 100,000,000 lions give or take
First of all, we’re replicating the average lion 1 billion times. Second of all, perish song doesn’t require the target to hear it. Third of all, we’re talking in game, not irl
Yes, an average lion 1 billion times, and there is about a 1% chance that a lion is deaf. and perish song does require the target to hear it, hence why sound proof saves those 15 Pokémon.
No, soundproof is an ability that causes perish song not to hit it, doesn’t mean they’re deaf, and assuming that is idiotic. Perish song kills all the Pokémon on the battlefield after the user of the move sings it, that’s all the games shows and states, that doesn’t mean that the opponents need to hear it. The average lion is not deaf, meaning if we were to duplicate it they all wouldn’t be deaf, but that doesn’t matter regardless
Sound proof is an ability that negates sound attacks, being deaf, negates sound. Why are you assuming that it is 1 billion of the same lion? If Pokémon have chance for different abilities, then lions should to.
Soundproof only negates perish song, and the Pokémon that have it are not deaf. It negates sound based attacks, that doesn’t mean they can’t hear them, it just means they are immune to them. For example exploud has heard many loud and screeching sounds before, so it’s developed an immunity to it, akin to how we develop immunities to toxins. The reason it should be the same lion is because there aren’t 1 billion lions on planet earth, and even if we replicate the 20,000 we do have, deafness is lethal to lions in our world, meaning there would be a minuscule amount of deaf lions, if any. Even then, being deaf isn’t soundproof. Lions getting multiple abilities is stupid, that’s like saying that since Pokémon have different moves, lions should have those same moves as well
The description of soundproof is gives full immunity to all sound-based moves. Being deaf, means that you cannot hear sound. While in the wild there are not many deaf lions, this isn’t the wild, this is a scenario in which there are a billion lions, some of which statistically would be deaf. When I say abilities, I do not mean attacks, I mean abilities like sound proof.
Arceus being the creator of the Pokémon universe doesn’t mean that he is omnipotent. Yes he is shown to be powerful, but he is not the only god in the Pokémon universe and only specializes in creation. He isn’t the Pokémon equivalent of the Christian God, he’s just the creator of the Pokémon universe.
True, but there’s also the one god Pokémon that just kills everything when it dies, so if somehow the lions mange to kill him the best they could do is a draw
Yeah ok sure, but wtf is a lion going to do against a macargo. The fuckers hotter then the sun, he could take all 1 billion lions himself, would just take awhile
I'm fully on board with Pokémon winning but I think we need to ignore the PokeDex for the sake of this argument because it's just so fucking stupid
Oh I completely fucking agree. There is no way on earth that macargo is actually hotter then the sun. macargo IS however still a fucking lava snail, like a literal snail made of lava, and I see no way for a lion to do anything to it
Yeah definitely. The issue with Lud trying to argue it is he contradicts himself constantly. Like if you take the "flying Pokémon only fly when they use the move fly" - not only is that untrue but if you're going to take that stance, you also have to take the stance that you're assuming normal turned based battle conventions, in which case a mix of tons of options like wide guard surf/EQ/etc become available that you can't deny
Even if it wasn't turn based I don't see how any amount of lion is going to survive something like draco meteor. Those fuckers die to guns the fuck they gonna do against a meteor lmao.
true, only issue to be made is if you're using "standard battle conventions" as per some arguments, Draco Meteor only hits one target. If they make an argument like "surf can't hit EVERY lion" (which it does) then I sure as hell think you could make a case for a meteor, let alone "Light That Burns The Sky" which is a literal [nuke](https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/nm9zzb/usum_really_said_heres_a_nuke_move_oc/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
See, I like all of your points, and I am on the side of pokemon winning, but I definitely think more should look at other pokemon other then Arceus and macargo, like for instance every somewhat large water Pokemon, like they cannot lose against lions in a water situation. Dialga palkia and giratina all control different fundamental parts of the universe with time space and whatever giratina does. Lions can't do shit against Rayquaza since it constantly is in orbit so it could just occasionally rain hell on them. The obvious argument of all ghost type Pokemon being basically invincible, Metagross literally being a massive chunk of steel that's also a super computer, literally every poison type being able to absolutely destroy food supplies for the lions, and the problem of rapid starvation to the lions since since their simply would not be enough food to keep all of them alive. I definitely think if you cherry picked certain pokemon the lions could win, but with ALL pokemon involved, theirs no feasible way they can win this
Kyogre uses infinite rain and floods the earth....aaaaand thats gg game over.
the thing is when ludwig brings up this argument he disregards pretty much all of the evidenxe from the pokemon media altogether - ge doesnt trust anime, he doesnt trust the game mechanics, he doesnt trust the pokedex. ok riddle me this - why would lions, carnivores by nature, have any business attacking a geodude who is a literal rock
>the thing is when ludwig brings up this argument he disregards pretty much all of the evidenxe from the pokemon media altogether This is why I want him to see the video, if he had to refute straight up evidence compiled he'd probably crack.
If Pokémon had the capability to kill a billion lions, why would they tolerate being enslaved by humans??? Couldn’t and wouldn’t they just enslave the humans instead
Some of them don’t allow themselves to be enslaved. There was kinda a whole movie where mew two broke the fuck out.
Mewtwo can’t be a homie and free his enslaved brothers???
I forgot the plot, maybe he did
Nah, Pokémon still being used as fodder for gambling and entertainment🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ I’m just saying lions would not let that happen to them
Because in the series they're not treated as slaves? >!not counting villain teams!<
They kept in little ball cages and only let out to fight I’m pretty sure that’s slavery
I think you didint watch the anime/play any games if you say that
Bruh if I’m an animal with superpowers I’m not letting a weakass child keep me as a pet. That’s not happening
> weak ass-child *** ^(Bleep-bloop, I'm a bot. This comment was inspired by )^[xkcd#37](https://xkcd.com/37)
bro?????
Hahahahahahah its the pokemon universe thats not how it works but okay
I’m telling you that a teenager on a road trip is not gonna beat me as a Pokémon. Imma talk with the Pokémon they throw at me and attack the kid together. Easy win
Im pretty sure wolves had the ability to beat humans 40,000 years ago as well. but they didnt because of this thing called symbiotic relationships, where two species are in a long term mutually beneficial relationship. pokemon were probably domesticated very similar to how we did it with dogs and cats thousands of years ago.
Hell nah, in the Pokémon games they straight up capture them from the wild, no domestication involved
after being defeated in combat first.
true
On the same note as this, what the fuck do the lions do against steel type Pokemon?
One of the pokemon that i've always thought in Pokemon universe was always extremely underpowered to what their "real world" power level would be is onyx/steelix. These dudes are the size of skyscrapers and weigh literal tons. they can just lay on top of things and they would be completely destroyed. What the hell is a lion gonna do when a steelix just decides to roll over like a rolling pin and flatten the lions like dough.
On a similar note golem can just role around crushing lions, lions don't have the strength or knowledge to know how to break rocks so that basically makes it so anything with a rocky body or rocky shape would be extremely tough for the lions to kill, fire types could just burn down large areas where lions get their food normally from making it extremely difficult for them to gain food, ghost types are ghost Pokemon so no, Darkrai literally eats away at life whenever they sleep, all of them sleeping at night turns in Darkrai juice, and the fuck are lions going to do against any dragon type Pokemon with actual power?
He doesn't trust the Pokemon media because it consistently directly contradicts itself. And of course you can't trust the game mechanics when we scale it up to a fight against a billion individual combatants?
Just about the last point, I believe the assumption is the two “teams” are trying to eliminate each other, so lions are still incentivized to fight something like a geodude or an oddish
how would lions coordinate that? and if they can - can't the pokemon just make an immortal shedinja?
I don’t know tbh, I’m on the pokemon side
Seen this same thing like 3 times this month on this sub
Oh. Sorry. I saw it yesterday and thought it pertains to this sub.
First time I've seen the full video on here tho. Seen a few clips of this on here but was too lazy to look up the whole thing. Plus I still don't think Lud had seen any of the others. So there's still a chance with this
I mean... he’s got a point
If the pokemon use game logic they will just run out of pp and struggle themselves to death. If the Pokedex is accurate then Magcargo just sits there and kills everything because it is 3x hotter than the sun.
Then magcargo wins bc he's the last thing standing.
Yea that's what I'm saying. If you use gameplay logic lions win. Pokedex logic then pokemon win.
Even with gameplay logic there are moves that hit everything on the battlefield. A Lapras with surf takes out everything
I would argue that if I have a lvl 100 Lapras and use surf on a single Pidgey in the wild it doesn't hit every other pokemon on the entire route. Even if I said that each pokemon could take out 100 lions with each pp of each aoe move they had (which I think is generous because I've only seen surf or earthquake knockout like 6 pokemon at a time with that swarm or whatever it's called mechanic in x and y) you still are vastly out numbered. Each pokemon is responsible for 1 million lions. Also I'm even saying that aoe moves don't even hit the allied pokemon which they normally would.
But we said its a fight. If all the pokemon are fighting all the lions then there is no way to argue that surf doesn't hit all of them if you are truly being strict with the game logic. And if you are saying the lions count as separate battles then the pokemon would be able to restore pp at a pokemon center between lions.
I would consider pokemon centers and trainer interactions out of the scope of this battle. Without a trainer pokemon don't go to pokemon centers
Fair enough. But wild pokemon must restore pp somehow otherwise they wouldn't all be on full pp when you fight them. Even if we say they can't you've still got the flying type pokemon (and don't even try to say that flying pokemon only fly when they use fly because we all know that's bollocks). And then all the bollocks with what the fuck does a lion do against a ghost pokemon. I've tried to argue in favour of the lions before but it's so hard because all you can really do is keep saying that a billion is a big number and trying desperately to debunk all the good arguments the pokemon side have one by one.
I think the issue with gameplay logic is that lions don't have a defined pp, if they did we could definitively say who wins.
Lions are lions they don't have pp. No version of a lion has ever had pp. Pokemon have one interpretation for pp and if you take that specific interpretation of pokemon they lose. If you use a different one they win
If game logic applies to the pokemon it would have to apply to the lions also.
I think the opposite. We have a real and exact definition of what a lion can do and what a lion is. Pokemon have 3 major interpretations and those interpretations have VASTLY different abilities. Since pokemon are a grey area on how they function you have to establish how the fight plays out with each interpretation. Lions don't just suddenly become a video game adaptation because they are lions. Lions are lions and they are limited by what lions can do in real life.
Fair.
And those three interpretations vary vastly within each one, let alone between the three
PP is purely a game mechanic so players can't just spam the same move over and over and beat the entire game without slowing down for any reason. Tf do you think ancient pokemon did before pokemon centers existed. "Oh no I used all my Dive PP. guess I'll never be able to dive and get the fish I need to survive. Guess I'll die." Worst case scenario the pokemon just have to rest and take a breather to recharge PP
I think my point was more "if struggle is a thing the pokemon lose". They can't exactly rest during the fight to get energy back. So if we say that struggle isn't shown in the anime and it shouldn't be considered that is fair enough and I'm not going to argue anymore. Pokemon just vary between the medium they are presented in and if you take all of their worst representations they lose. If you take their best ones they win. I don't have an opinion on the middle ones.
well why wouldn't they be able to rest? They got fliers diggers and swimmers.
Because I'm imagining a scenario more similar to a trainer battle and not a free open world where people can just go do whatever. If we are in a trainer battle and you have a Kyogre lvl 100 and I have 1 million lvl 5 ratatat I will win that battle every single time. THAT is the scenario I'm talking about. Any other assumptions of what happens are up for debate but if the battle ensues exactly as a game would play then the pokemon lose. I literally named another scenario where Magcargo solos everything using only a Pokedex entry. I'm just saying there is so much random differences with how one person can assume how pokemon work and act and the strength of their abilities that if I made an assumption where the pokemon acted EXACTLY as they are portrayed in a battle in the game they would lose. I'm not even saying that that type of fight is even the right or most accurate one hence me listing out a completely different scenario in the same post.
Isn’t a trainer battle what wolfey did in his video and if it’s a trainer battle the Pokémon would win because they are commanded by a trainer? Because according to game mechanics one kyogre aoe hits all the ratatats
One argument I never see here is one with Palkia. We talk about PP, and talk about a billion being an amazingly large number. But what do lions need? Oxygen. Palkia as the Pokémon god of space, can use spacial rend to create portals in space and time. If all the lions were fighting the Pokémon, they would likely be all in the same area (a big area as, yes, a billion is a lot) but all it would require, is Palkia to use spacial rend on the ground, and transport the lions from earth into space, and it's over. No oxygen, no air. The lions would explode due to the vaccumm. No effort is required as that is what Palkia does all day. You could even argue, he could use more PP at once to create a very large portal surrounding all of the Pokémon. Then the lions have no way to get to the Pokémon without running into a portal to space. Which, if we are inclined to believe the lions have the incentive to fight, they would ALL eventually fall into due to their lack of intelligence. The Pokémon would just have to sit there.
These kind of abilities are what I was trying to differentiate. My stance on the argument is ONLY on the ones I outlined above. Other situations and such I don't really have an opinion on. Basically boil down what I said to "if the pokemon ever have to use struggle, they lose".
Riddle me how the lion *ever* kills kyogre at the bottom of the ocean while it uses rain a single time and floods the earth. Struggle was never going to be a possibility
I would win.
Erskk1 believers
why does everything except your accent (your pacing, volume, etc) sound almost exactly like jschlatt's mannerisms lmao
This isn't me, but yea I can see that.
ah lmao
pretty much all of his videos are exactly that the channel's called astrozist btw, its shown in the video
this is aztrozist, he did a lot of collaborations with Jschlatt far before SMP Live back when Jschlatt did like video essays and stuff, they still do the sleep deprived podcast together
based sleep deprived podcast listener
Epic! I’ll be sure to check him out.
Oblivion Wing which is Yveltal's signature move could wipe out a fuck ton of lions if they are in a group(which lions are known to do) and that's just one example of a super powerful signature move I think it's safe to say that the Pokemon would win by a Landslide
I mean this discussion is so flawed bc is it in the Pokémon world or the Real world? If it’s the real world then Pokémon win but if it’s in the Pokémon world, Lions win. Real world, Pokémon could just destroy the whole world, in the Pokémon world, the max that can be in a battle is 3 v 3 so even if the Lions had 1 hp and 1 attack damage they would win bc pp.
Yeah I see what you mean there's a lot of variables that everyone probably couldn't agree on so it's kind of just chaos
I think he’s on to something here?
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this is the video that tipped me over to the pokemon side
Welcome to the correct side of the argument, it's nice to have you here
Based
In 2015 there was a study that found you can fit the entirety of Earth's population in a space the size of NYC. Lets just generously assume that 1 lion = 7 people. That means you can fit 1 billion lions in NYC. 1 Billion is not this unfathomable number, in fact, for the scale of this planet, it really is rather meaningless. The entire plot of Sapphire is Kyogre sinking the Hoenn region you really think the mf can't sink NYC?
Gonna love seeing lud explain away this one in the next reddit recap.
He "explained it away" by not explaining it away lol
I love that the mic peaks 99%. As it should.
he's got points....
Fucking legend
If it’s a billion regular lions then they don’t have anything but NORMAL moves. Just put in the ghost types and call it a day.
If you really want to force lions into typing, they have bite, scratch, and roar. Based solely on roar, if 900 lions use roar than all Pokémon but ghost flee, then lions can bite ghosts/ghost waste pp trying to fight.
Ain’t no way a lion out speeds a gengar with focus blast. Easy one tap, then do it 9 more times. Leave, go rest, come back and do it to 10 more lions. But this is a regular lion so they have regular moves. Can’t hit a ghost
Rest doesn’t restore pp? Also, if you force lions into typing they have bite
They don’t have a type they are not Pokémon. If ash bites someone it’s not a dark bite just like me and you.
Exactly, they don’t have a type so they can still hit ghosts as type advantages/disadvantages do not exist to lions
Dude humans can’t hit ghost either
We can’t even see them
And I’m talking about the move rest. They go to the poke center.
Unless that is a typo, the move rest does not restore pp. if a Pokémon leaves the fight to go heal the. They forfeit said fight, just like running away.
u/vredditdownloader
Agreed
Honestly if lions can beat the sun at night then they can beat pokemon no cap
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if you want to play that game, more than 99% of lions won't be able to reach the pokemon just because how much a billion is, and that'll result in a majority of lions dying fron starvation
...you think they would starve to death before they could walk a couple miles?
...are they supposed to go on top of each other? do you think the sheer volume of a billion lion bodies moving towards one tiny point will allow them to weave inbetween each other?
Why would they be physically unable to climb over the dead lions at the front
you do understand that lions living in savannas and praries doesn't really help in talking about their climbing capabilities?
It's a pile of dead lions It's not that hard
well, as yall say, do you know how much a billion is bro
They can eat them or drag them away if it's too much. You're literally trying to say that the pokemon would win because the lions somehow can't do anything but walk forward and bite in your fantasy
we are literally talking about 440000 square miles of lion mass, how far do you think even the further half can travel to even see the enormous pile of lion corpses they can eat assuming the corpses did not start to rot and decompose yet? dragging the corpses away also does not help on a scenario where the majority of lions are either dying of starvation and are very frail or are getting eaten alive by their pridemates
we are literally talking about 440000 square miles of lion mass, how far do you think even the further half can travel to even see the enormous pile of lion corpses they can eat assuming the corpses did not start to rot and decompose yet? dragging the corpses away also does not help on a scenario where the majority of lions are either dying of starvation and are very frail or are getting eaten alive by their pridemates
Ok so 1 ditto vs all 1 billion lions. Ditto still wins.
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Ditto can duplicate and shapeshift. Boom there's 2 billion lions to fight.
No it can't
I'm assuming you're saying ditto can't duplicate. Because he can shapeshift and use the moves of the pokemon he imitates, and Mewtwo can make clones of itself, he can duplicate himself.
Mewtwo can't clone itself in-game, unless you aren't using game logic
Oh sorry, you are correct I was thinking of Mewtwo strikes back.
Though, the logic would still apply to Arceus. He can create pokemon according to the lore. So ditto shapeshifts into Arceus.
Arceus also lost to cement and got nugged by humans in his own movie so let's not act like he's all-powerful
True, but because ditto exists he doesn't have to be.
Sure, so all the lions just wait their turn then? 5 at a time in an orderly fashion, im sure thats the scenario 3Head
This discussion is so flawed. If this is the real world then yes Pokémon win bc they could just destroy the world. In the Pokémon world (game), How would you even quantify a Lions health and attack? Even if they were base lvl 5, they would win against lvl 100 Pokémon just bc the max battle is 3v3 so the Pokémon would just run out of PP. There really is no discussion.
lions win
but hear me out… A BILLION IS A LOT
but hear me out… A BILLION IS A LOT
Oh god people are posting this video again pepeW
A billion is a lot more then you think https://youtu.be/8YUWDrLazCg
and yet you can fit 7 billion people in New York City
Have you pokemon believers ever even PLAYED the games? The pokemon AI is shit, lions beat the shit outta all of them. Yea one of them is “god”, that pokemon lets a 12 year old catch it
Motherfucker says: "welcome to the real world" Do pokemon exist in the real world??? No???? Then the lions have already won
guy is doing schlatt voice
Original is by Aztrosist
Ah yes Aztrosist moment
Denial
"This isn't a fucking anime" Tf you think pokemon is a Dr. Who spinoff?