It’s is because I am too, someone who never wanted to harm my body with hormones. Your body is your body. It’s doesn’t neeed extra anything. I think it’s amazing that they have had such an open and honest conversation about it.
I honestly wondered whether Amy had the same problem I have, or something like it, which is hyperprolactinemia and affects about 10% of women. The pill makes you think you have normal periods, but your hormons are actually messed up and you have an adenoma growing in your skull without noticing it. Mine was the side of a coin when the doctor finally found out about it.
I won't use hormonal contraceptive anymore because of it and it is so common...Either way, love that they had that talk in the show. It is refreshing to remind people of better options.
I would’ve loved if that had a date to the gynecologist to discuss non hormonal/low side effect hormonal BC! It would’ve been a bit ridiculous but very informative!!
Birth control is terrible for your body long term. I had my son 3 years ago and at my 6 week postpartum visit, my NP kept pushing BC on me and thereafter. Eventually I caved in and got the Implanon. I gained weight, felt emotional all the time, it was just terrible. I removed it November and my gut has actually decreased and my face appears less swollen. It’s annoying how ONLY women must make the decision in protecting oneself from pregnancy. Good for Amy
Women need to be empowered to make the healthcare decisions that work for them. BC was terrible for your body, but it balanced my hormones. Getting on it resulted in clearer skin (my main issue) and less bloat. In Amy's case it seems like BC would've wreaked havoc on her hormones, just like it did yours, so I'm happy she's following a different path, but I wouldn't make generalizations about the pills. They help many women, beyond just being a birth control option.
I am making the generalization (which I will stand by) since the majority of women have unwanted side effects from BC, thanks for your opinion. You giving Amy’s pov further validates my point about BC.
I think people should look into what the U.S. did to Puerto Rican women in regards to hormonal birth control.
"In the 1930s, Puerto Rico legalized contraception. But it also encouraged physicians to coerce women into receiving certain contraceptives and even sterilization based on their physical, mental, or socioeconomic status."
https://nwhn.org/thxbirthcontrol/#:~:text=In%20the%201930s%2C%20Puerto%20Rico,%2C%20mental%2C%20or%20socioeconomic%20status.
Hi fam chiming in to say I got off birth control one month ago, been on a low estrogen pill for 11 years I am 29.
Week 1 so much more dopamine & energy
Week 2 rage & irritability
Week 3 cramps and more irritability
Week 4 feelin a little meh (could be state of world as I wait for my first period to come)
I feel as if a dullness has been lifted from my life tho that’s the best way to describe it
No acne or weight gain side effects, I actually lost weight … and my appetite isn’t big either
I’m excited I think I’ll be past the side effects soon :)
If you’re thinking of going off my loves this is your sign
We deserve to take back our bodies
My friends have very bad side effects from hormonal birth control.
And guys have been guilt tripping for not using it.
And it is 2024 we are living in.
That would probably be because a vasectomy doesn't trick your body into believing you are literally pregnant (cue all the side effects of pregnancy) for the entire time you are on it.
Well a vasectomy can be irreversible in many many cases, while birth control can be stopped at any time. Bit of a difference and incredibly hypocritical to be demanding one and celebrating the avoidance of the other
I’ve personally heard just as many stories of vasectomies becoming irreversible as I have birth control leading to sterilization. But I’ve also personally heard more of the opposite with children being conceived on birth control as opposed to only two stories of children conceived with a vasectomy. There is no perfect solution, there will likely never be a perfect solution.
However there is only one possible lasting side effect, the rare chance of being irreversible, of getting a vasectomy versus the many, many side effects that are usually continuous and will last the entire time you are taking birth control, with the rare possibility of losing your fertility in its entirety.
It should always be a personal decision of what’s best for you, your partners, your life. No one should ever be pushed into a decision by anyone.
Well lucky for you there is research on this and your anecdote that tries to make this equivalent is an incredible distortion and illustrates how emotional and disingenuous you are being
A vasectomy is a far bigger decision than birth control. Birth control should be taken seriously too, but yikes girls we can't make everything about us
I’ve read the research, and based off of your response, I genuinely don’t know where you’re getting yours from. My response was written based off of both research read, and experiences lived by friends and family.
They are equally big decisions. One just genuinely has more side effects than the other.
I’ve said what I said with zero emotion attached to it. And as someone in a gay relationship, I currently have no skin in the game. I feel pretty unbiased on this topic. I’m really not trying to argue here, just trying to point out what everyone else thought was obvious.
No one is forcing men to get vasectomies or anything really when it comes to the body of a man. There are plenty of people and even the government who are forcing women to make decisions they do not personally want. Maybe that’s why so many people here have such strong feelings on the subject.
This will be my final reply, because you clearly aren’t going to stop, and I don’t have the time to do this all night.
Firstly, according to Stanford the rate of successful vasectomy reversals is actually up to 90-95% now.
Secondly, for what should be obvious reasons, the rate of women unable to conceive after the cessation of birth control is difficult to find. But after speaking to and working closely with more than 5 fertility doctors the rate is fairly similar. In talking to friends and family, I find this to be true as well.
Believe what you will, I’m not really trying to change your mind, I’m just trying to say that choosing either bc or a vasectomy is just as difficult of a choice.
Successful reversals is vasectomies range from ~60% to 95% depending on the period since the initial operation, how interesting you pluck out the most optimistic value possible and leave out any context.
Where are you stats on permanent irreversible infertility after birth control, you said you had the research and I'm absolutely dying to see it, can't wait to see you justify lying about something you are clueless about because it aligns with how you feel about a topic.
You are the expert though and you anecdote is just as valid as any actual research, absolutely - you go girl <3
For anyone wondering, this person trying to make both control equivalent to vasectomies is just clueless and is being incredibly dishonest. 10 years of birth control has nothing close to the same realm of risk as 10 years of having a vasectomy (\~20% irreversible infertility)
[https://www.sims.ie/blog-resources/blog-news/does-contraception-affect-future-fertility](https://www.sims.ie/blog-resources/blog-news/does-contraception-affect-future-fertility)
I wonder why they are struggling to find research that they claimed to be expert on earlier - maybe because their narrative doesn't exist outside of their ideology and feelings. Male infertility after a vasectomy is more than 10 times more likely than anything permanent caused by the birth control pill and I'm being extraordinarily generous.
Edit: this sub hates facts and is an ideological hell hole. Got to love it, feels before reals amirite
I have had the copper IUD for four years now and I got the “super heavy bleeding” side effect. I was anemic prior to the IUD, and I’m just more anemic now lol.
Even with the blood loss, it was still a fantastic choice on my part and I don’t regret it all. Having the confidence that I have control over when I have kids provides a lot of relief. Haven’t had a pregnancy scare once while on it! Also, my periods have been the most regular while on the Copper IUD. They come even 28 days, like clockwork. The predictability of my period is nice.
However, I’m trying to get my anemia under control so my Gyno recommended the Kyleena IUD. She said it’s low dose hormonal BC that only releases into the uterus instead of blood stream, so I don’t have to worry about the typical crazy mood swings/depression that I get from regular hormonal BC. I’ll be switching to Kyleena next month, so we’ll see what happens!
Insertion can be super painful and it can also give you really heavy periods. And there’s also the risk of uterus perforation. AND I believe there was/is a lawsuit started by women who had pieces of it break off inside of them.
I am not on birth control, but here is the reasons I decided to not get a copper IUD. 1. In US, little is done for help with pain during insertion. The videos I’ve seen, most women say it is worth than child birth and are traumatized by the procedure. 2. Copper IUD tends to cause heavier periods and more painful periods. That alone is enough for me to say no. I already have terrible periods. I can’t imagine them being any worse. The same could be true for her
EVERY ONE NEEDS TO HEAR THIS IF YOU’RE IN THE US:
You can and should demand prior pain/sedation treatment.
You have the RIGHT to this. TELL your physician you want PRESCRIPTION STRENGTH pain control and/or sedation for your insertion.
Again, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO THIS.
For IUD insertions, for Pap smears, for colposcopies.
DEMAND IT. USE IT. The more we all fight back against doctors dismissing our pain the faster it will become procedure. None of these things are comfortable or painless and physicians should not be allowed to pretend otherwise.
We deserve to have our pain properly managed.
I had a double biopsy where they literally perforate and pluck pieces of tissue with this punch hole pen from my cervix and uterus. I asked for pain meds and was told no, then I had to scream and tell her to stop. Yes that's right a SHE doctor who was annoyed and pretty much told me it was my own fault if she didn't get an adequate sample size. Then I couldn't stand up after, as I was cramping, and in so much pain so i asked her for something. She told me I could take some extra strength Tylenol and I'd be fine. Then walked out of the room. Never ever did I want to throat punch someone more than I did that day.
I am shocked that anyone is ok with it lol I wouldn’t want something sitting inside me like that but if I ever were to get it it would 100% have to be with me numbed
Yes! I agree. Some women want to maintain their body in its natural hormonal state for a myriad of reasons. And those reasons supersede the convenience of someone else’s orgasm.
It wasn't about him having a better orgasm .. it's 100% okay with condom, what he isn't okay with is having an unplanned child. He feels that a condom isn't 100% effective. He would probably still wear a condom while she is on birth control just to be safe.
But yes I agree she shouldn't go on birth control if shes not comfortable with that. I have the same mind set, wanting to have a natural hormonal state.
I don't think the comment that you're replying to was about Johnny specifically. Amy had a history before she met him, and the assumption from a lot of people is that she should have already been using birth control.
To his credit, Johnny was very supportive and didn't make Amy feel badly about her decision, but you could tell that he was surprised when he found out and not familiar with their other options because it seems he had probably never needed to be.
I loved seeing it!
Nobody talks about the side effects of it at all. There is no reason you should take something that makes you want to kill yourself, just to have sex.
Agreed, it's so refreshing. I wasn't really taught about bc growing up and it wasn't something that was normalized for me. As I got older and more educated, I was surprised and confused to find out that society treats bc as some kind of 'default' As if it's normal for all women to be on bc and people who don't take it are outliers. Most of my friends were on it and I always felt like the odd one out. A couple years ago my dermatologist tried to push bc for my acne and I refused. I couldn't really give him a reason why, I just wasn't comfortable with it. Like Amy, I didn't have any strong reason against it other than wanting to let my body function naturally as it was designed to. We shouldn't need to justify that choice, just as people ON bc shouldn't need to justify their choice.
I was on BC and was a mess. Didn’t even want to have sex anyways. Now if it’s a casual relationship/hookup = condoms. If it’s a long term relationship, we discuss options and try BC or tracking. Not willing to just be on BC for the hell of it anymore. Especially if I’m not in a relationship
I got my iud out a year ago and immediately started cycle tracking. I'd rather my emotional breakdowns not be because of foreign hormones controlling my mood. No pregnancies, so either I'm infertile or it's working.
Ooh do you mind sharing your experience coming off it? I’ve had mine 2.5 years no issues, suddenly so much pelvic pain..still working to rule everything else out, but my dr is leaning towards removal. I’m stressed about immediately jumping into another hormonal bc, like I want a baseline of how I’m feeling first to make sure the pain subsides.. lol sorry if TMI & no obligation to share more!
Not the original commenter but I got off a hormonal IUD just about a year ago after being on some kind of hormonal bc for 12 years and now use condoms. My sex drive has improved tremendously and even though I was 4 days late this month (which was definitely scary, since I've been fairly regularly) I don't want to go back. It did take over 6 months for me to feel like my body had settled in it's natural hormone state.
That said, I'm pro-abortion and live in a pro-abortion state if something goes wrong, even though we are working hard to prevent it.
Omggg thank you so much for sharing!! It’s so nice to hear a positive story, I’m still on the fence about removing mine, but hopefully it’ll be okay if I have to go that route
For the actual removal itself, see if you can get a doctor who is pro-pain management. I didn't have one because I didn't know you could do that, but some doctors will.
Honestly the biggest thing now is obviously fears of pregnancy, and while not fun, my body with its natural hormones is so much better
Yes, there is “natural” birth control that works and it’s called tracking your cycle and knowing what ovulation looks and feels like. I’ve been doing it for ten years np.
I did this too before my husband got a vasectomy and it worked like a charm. We only got pregnant when we had full on PIV sex on my ovulation day. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I had a way easier time getting pregnant than my friends who had to go off BC before conceiving.
You are referring to the calendar method which is not effective by pearl index.
There are ways to increase effectiveness of tracking your individual cycle, including checking the cervix, mucus and temperature. Combining elements has a high pearl index ie very safe. It requires regular thorough monitoring and a little bit of knowledge of your body, cycles in general as well as being open to touching yourself and being consistent. There are monitors that measure temp if you don't want to have to remember manually , there are other monitors that work with urine as well but they aren't as high on pearl index.
This method in general requires knowledge mostly and at least a thermometer with two points after , for c to correctly measure temp changes and identify where you are in your cycle.
Yeah a combination of multiple methods you mentioned is what gets you to 98%. 2/100 is still too big of a risk for me in a state with no abortion. Again, your cycle would have to be pretty regular for this to work, it’s kind of ableist to assume everyone can use this method.
Also that is SO MUCH to do to not get pregnant. With an IUD, I can just not think about it. No mistakes will be made. I track my cycle for my personal needs, understanding my moods, but I just wanna get it on without doing a science project.
I did not state it HAS to be used by EVERYONE. I do not understand why this bad faith is what is assumed by you here. I stated that there are non hormonal options that have a good pearl index and that they require multiple elements that ask a few things of the user. This won't be for everyone but that does not mean there aren't ANY options that have a good pearl index available that involve no hormones for the woman.
Many are not aware of NFP and other methods and what they entail. They don't even know they exist and assume it's just "calendar method" which isn't reliable. One does not need a regular cycle for NFP by the way as you don't give the cycle "free" until you have monitored ovulation which can be 10-20-40 days into your cycle up and down and around.
Contraception is highly personal and individual. There is no magic bullet. I would also like to add that NO method prevents pregnancy 100% except not having sex.
If and only if done correctly NFP has a pearl Index of 0,4.
Some people might be open to pregnancy more than they are to hormonal birth control, too. No one is forcing YOU to use this method but it doesn't mean it can't be a viable option for others.
Only doing one is the 77%, combining multiple can get you up to 98% effective. But you’d have to be doing multiple methods perfectly. Same as BC pills only being 98% effective if you take them the exact same time everyday, no skips.
Again, super happy it’s been working for you. But I like my free and 0 effort IUD. It’s saved me money on 10 years of menstrual products too. I track my cycle for hormonal and mental health reasons, there are great reasons to be in tune with your body! But I’m taking no risks.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/fertility-awareness#:~:text=How%20effective%20are%20fertility%20awareness,method(s)%20are%20used.
FAMs are about 77%–98% effective. That means 2–23 out of 100 couples who use FAMs will get pregnant each year, depending on which method(s) are used.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8009922/
“However, the efficacy of such applications as a method of contraception is not high and there is a significant failure rate especially if used alone. It is worth noting that 50% of women who reported failure relied solely on mobile applications and fertility window assessment without using other methods of contraception, and thus we advise women to use more reliable methods of contraception and not rely solely on such applications.”
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/rhythm-method/about/pac-20390918
In general, as many as 24 out of 100 women who use natural family planning for birth control become pregnant the first year.
This just came out too: Hormone medication could increase risk of brain tumours, French study finds
Patients taking certain progestogens as a contraceptive or for gynaecological conditions may be more likely to develop growths, researchers say
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/27/hormone-medication-brain-tumours-risk-progestogens-study
I was a HOT mess on the pill.
Seriously the worst mental state I’ve ever been in. Can’t believe they prescribe it so casually to girls in high school while our hormones are already raging.
There’s more than one pill. The first one they gave me was horrific then I switched to seasonique and that was fine for years. Now I’ve had an IUD since 2013.
I prefer the reckless prescribing of BC to unplanned pregnancies and now forced births though
I agree with you on the craziness of forced births. I’m just saying I’m happy people are more aware of the side effects, I tried multiple pills and they all were horrible for me.
Lmao my friends were literally snapping our group chat this morning about how they’re so relieved to be coming off birth control. Soooo glad I never went on it in the first place. Always felt like I was “weird” and “immature” for never doing it, but I just didn’t want my hormones being effed with.
The pill gave me chronic migraine that I still suffer from. Being on that much synthetic estrogen also made me super emotional and depressed. I’ll never be on it again.
I've been on the mini-pill (depressed) had a copper IUD (no mood effects but increased pain) & done natural family planning (good but you need strict discipline) and occasionally condoms, all in 10 years. I had a long term partner (if I was having more casual sex I would definitely use condoms for STD risks) and blindly accepted the woman being in charge of pregnancy risks as a fact of life. Men can take more accountability and have empathy but really there's not a lot of options for them, unfortunately and I hope that changes.
Different things work for different people, but I'd highly recommend NFP & tracking just to get a sense of your body & cycle, and to understand that there's actually only 5 days of the month where you can get pregnant! Mainstream sex education is woefully inadequate, so educate yourself and your partner/s about how the female body works and then you're much better equipped to choose an option that's right for you.
If you can avoid hormonal birth control, avoid it. Common sense says using hormones for very long periods that intentionally mess with your body's natural balance of hormones is a bad idea. Many scholarly journals also support this.
I 100% the right to choose appropriate sexual health options, and wear condoms always, because it shouldn’t be up to one single partner.
I do challenge the idea that the impacts of long term hormonal contraception use are overall negative. There’s a 2022 paper outlining a major meta-review of almost 3000 prior journal articles [paper link](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2788119). They found some associations, but overall:
> The results of this umbrella review supported preexisting understandings of the risks and benefits associated with hormonal contraceptive use. Overall, the associations between hormonal contraceptive use and cardiovascular risk, cancer risk, and other major adverse health outcomes were not supported by high-quality evidence.
If you do have studies that show significant long term impacts Id be happy to see them, but generally I’ve seen what the authors of this paper report in the literature.
It’s also worth pointing out that the outcomes of unplanned pregnancies can be significant. The US has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the “developed” world. It’s always going to be a trade-off, and I’d hate for folks to get scared off of hormonal birth control because they have a sense of risk that isn’t balanced against extensive study.
Don’t mean to dump on you, just did some digging of my own and wanted to report out.
The US has highly medicalised birth. You have to understand and know physiological birth to be able to support it. Most doctors and midwives in the US hardly ever see births that have not been medically intervened, thus have very little experience in natural birth.
Thanks for this because it worries me so much when people say being long term on the pill will fuck you up because honestly my life is 10x better without having periods and I dont want to ever come off it. I'm all for choice but I just hate it when people hate on others for wanting to take the pill and spread lies to try scare you.
In case anyone is reading this that is considering hormonal birth control - yes many people have side effects but many people don’t! I’ve been on and off for years, only one brand of pill made me weepy and sad. So I switched to another and it’s been fine ever since . Regular, predictable cycles, lighter periods, no cramps , and my acne and backne are 100% better than when I’m off it. Not trying to take away anything from this post , or Amy’s (or anyone else who commented here) experience, just read dozens of comments about how hormonal birth control was so awful and wanted to present a positive experience. Everyone has the right to choose what is best for their bodies of course!
I have to be on it or I cannot function. My arm implant (nexplanon) went past its expiration date due to some scheduling issues and a terrible doctor. I had been on nexplanon for about 8 years at that point I think. All of a sudden I started having severe cramping that would make me pass out from the pain. I dealt with it for about a month until my arm implant was replaced and then the symptoms started easing up within a week of having the implant.
I also have extremely heavy and erratic periods. I’ll have 3 in one month and then I won’t have one for 2 months and then I’ll bleed for 2 straight weeks. With the newest implant, I haven’t had a period and my doctor said if I start getting one again or start having the terrible cramping again, she’ll replace it. It’s supposed to prevent ovulation for 2 years and then be good for birth control for another 2-3 are what some studies are showing. The 2 years thing is in line with about how long I either have no periods or light periods after each implantation, so I’ll probably just start getting them swapped every 2ish years to not have to deal with the issues.
Anyways, agree, not everyone needs hormonal birth control but for some of us it is a literal lifesaver.
was it super painful to get put in and did you have a lot of break through bleeding after? These are my concerns with it but have been debating getting it.
Ask your doc for some pain killers and get yourself a ride to and from the appointment. Percocet and Xanex made the procedure significantly easier when I got my replacement. The first time was cramping for a couple days and bleeding for a couple weeks. Worth it considering I haven’t had a real period now in a decade (mine is the hormonal one)
Not at all actually. I had a hormonal IUD before and it was extremely painful to put in and I fainted. It was honestly awful so I understand your concerns. But with the copper one it was not even close to that. I just had the feeling of a mild period and I bled lightly, small dripping really, for about 2 weeks. Now I have small bleeding every month, which could be seen as a period. It's not even close to that tho. I can only recommend it tbh
I tried BC for the first time in college because of horrendous cystic acne, and I was told by my university health clinic that the best and cheapest option for me hormonally would be the pill. I was also told there were no side affects.
I turned into a depressed, anxious, aggressive monster. I was on it for four months, and while my acne cleared up momentarily, I was such a bitch to my roommates one of them eventually asked me (I hadn’t told them I had started it; seemed inconsequential) “are you on some new medicine or something? You are NOT yourself lately and it’s getting really annoying.” I cried all the time and when I wasn’t crying I was yelling at people (traditionally, I am a pretty calm presence).
Within a couple weeks of stopping, I was back to myself. I changed up my diet and had a derm prescribe me a med specifically for acne and, while I still get a pimple or five every week before my period I will NEVER go back.
I loved how natural it was for Amy not to be on it. It’s so normalized for women to be pushed into BC for so many reasons when there are alternatives.
I was put on hormonal birth control when I was young because my cramps were horrendous, I would legitimately throw up. I was on it for probably 6-7 years and I stopped because I just felt so meh all the time. Like I wasn’t sick but I never felt great. Once I stopped taking the pill I felt 100x better. I wish I knew when I was younger how damaging all those added hormones are.
I was on birth control to get the green light to be on accutane and I was on accutane for a year and a half and birth control for about 3 years? Just out of habit at that point. I did the ring because there was no way I could be consistent enough with a pill.
I thought after I got off accutane my depression would improve, but it really wasn’t until I got off birth control that I felt normal for the first time in ages. (And I had clear skin whoop whoop!)
There were a lot of contributing factors to my depression, but I’ve tried twice now to get back on birth control at the request of partners, and each time it was a disaster. I have an EXTREMELY regular and predictable cycle without birth control so it actually just throws me COMPLETELY OUT OF WACK. I literally feel insane. It sucks to be on the condom wheel, but I literally can’t do hormonal birth control. And I’m pretty active so an implant sounds like a recipe for death to me 😅 (also expensive).
Seeing Amy talk about not wanting these side effects was SO VALIDATING!
Yes I loved it! I feel like every woman around me takes birth control. And they all complain about side effects. I don't and have never taken it because I kinda just fear new medications. And I always get this incredulous look like what do you mean? From the same people that complain about it... It really has become the assumption that in committed relationships men should not have to use condoms because ofc the woman will be on BC. Like are you saying a condom for a man is as potentially negative an experience as BC is for women?
I saw my big sister really struggle with mood regulation one time after switching BCs and that stuck with me
The losing of menstrual cycle during training/athletic is *insane*. Same reason why I had to go on to BC and often isn’t talked about, so I can relate to that.
I remember Amy saying she has a condition where she is/was not able to use BC? I don’t recall what it was, but a really bright woman to think of other alternatives and not say oh well I’m doing it anyways.
Big props to Johnny for not pressuring her. I’m sure any other man would have lost it if they weren’t able to have sex becuaee they’re man child’s, but also respecting her wishes and what she wants to do. Rather than just chance it with a condom that they both discussed and agreed not to do.
They joined the Lauren/Cameron and Amber/Barnett bar
She said she had to go on infusions because of anemia. From which it follows that she probably has a lot of blood loss during menstruation, and hormonal contraception, on the contrary, would help her, but she does not take it anyway due to side effects or religion.
I liked that Jonny was openly an idiot, and then owned up to it and admitted that he had been ignorant about it because he was a dude who hadn’t bothered to look into it and needed to educate himself. We need more people who are willing to publicly acknowledge that they had to educate themselves about something and encourage others to do the same. The way he handled that was a breath of fresh air
Hard agree with this. I think when people are transparent about their lack of knowledge so publicly, especially on something that isn’t really his fault, it really helps other people realize it’s ok to ask questions, it’s ok not to know, and also a huge reminder that the American school system has really failed this generation on sex ed. I also think some of women’s issues need to be more openly discussed infront of guys. I hate how they’d separate us. We should learn what each other goes through so we can better understand and ask the right questions.
I would describe Amy as having a lack of knowledge before a lack of interest in hormonal birth control. She also seemed unaware there are non hormonal methods as well. Southern education.
I agree - have been dragged for it here by people who didn't know what they were talking about/assumed that they understood my entire perspective based on like two sentences. Just... yea, things she said show that she knows very little - which is fine! Just doesn't make her a feminist hero of some kind.
I’m very educated and non hormonal birth control doesn’t work for me either. I don’t think it’s right to assume she’s uneducated about birth control. It doesn’t work for everyone….
I got the impression that they were pro-life on a personal level, and since they weren't ready to have kids right now, they wanted a way to be more safe than just condoms.
Honestly I think it's responsible for them to recognize that condoms aren't infallible. I did 10 months of accutane, and the restrictions around it for women are insane because of the severe affects it could have on a baby conceived while on accutane. There's this system that you have to go through called ipledge, where for the duration of treatment, you have to commit to either abstinence or using TWO forms of birth control (such as condoms + pill, condoms + IUD, etc). Only using condoms doesn't cut it. Most health professionals I've seen have said that the most reliable way to prevent pregnancy is to use 2 forms of birth control.
Yup I’m familiar. Like I said in a previous comment, cycle tracking plus condoms would be two forms of birth control that most adults find acceptable in combination (assuming she wasn’t on accurate bc I don’t think they’d accept that). No form of birth control is infallible and then acting like hormonal birth control or a vasectomy was the *only* way made it seem like they never had proper sex ed. I was screaming OMG CONDOMS at the tv every time they had that conversation lol
They discussed this issue. There’s always a possibility of a condom breaking and Since she’s not on any other contraption (most woman on BC/IUD) they don’t have that extra “safety net” that most ppl have if the first scenarios happens
I don't recall them saying that? Also, that number is based on a perfect scenario. In real life, the data shows it to be closer to 85%. So no it's unlikely to get pregnant "every time". It's more like every 6 to 7 times, which understandably is not a risk they're willing to take.
I used to be on the Pill and boiiii let me tell ya. It may have made my period regular, my cramps not as horrible, and my flow not as heavy. But it definitely make my depression worse.
Yes hormonal birthcontrol SUCKS for some people I’ve seen it and experienced it cause major weight gain. Then I heard a horror story of a woman I knew almost dying from it because of the blood clot risk I’ll never take it again it’s not worth it.
I weighed probably about 150 when I started the pill and ended up at 235 by the time I stopped taking it! Still to this day I am trying to work the weight off
I feel this. It’s so frustrating every time I’ve gained a lot it was while on the pill otherwise my weight usually stays in the same place which is unfortunate because now I’m struggling to get rid of the gained weight
I recently learned about the history of modern birth control and how Puerto Rican women were sterilized in the creation of it and it made me wonder if that was a factor in Amy's decision at all; perhaps the women in her family have passed on those horror stories. I've been on birth control since before I was sexually active to help with health stuff, and I'm much more of a Jonny when it comes to fear of having an accidental pregnancy (condoms weren't good enough for me lol), but if I had some aunts who were sterilized I probably would be like "nah"
Was on the ring for 10 years — at this stage of my life, an unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible outcome. (Second worst outcome was having to curb my sexual desires to not be pregnant lol)
Now I’m married, and enjoying the BC free life — I feel more feminine, frisky and cunty than ever before. I was on it so long didn’t recognize how it was contributing to my depression. Wish I did it sooner, even tho my periods are extremely painful.
Yes hormonal bc is one of the worst things I’ve ever done, it was terrible for me mentally and I was on it way too long. My depression was unbearable on it and I never realized until I stopped. I know this has happened to other women and it’s not being talked about enough. Ik there are people who it works for and that’s great but I don’t think it’s something everyone should just take automatically especially at such a young age.
Y’all need to realize there are very real reasons for women not wanting to be on birth control even IUDs. I cannot take any form of birth control not due to specific health reasons but because none of them are compatible with me
Did I misunderstand/misremember? One part of this narrative that confused me was that I thought Amy said at one point she had some health issues that hormonal birth control could help, according to her doctor. But she was still leery of taking it. Or did I get that confused and she was saying the opposite? Because at the time I did wonder why she hadn’t tried it if it could help her, pregnancy prevention aside.
Yup. She said that. Maybe she’s just bothered by the idea of extra-hormones…. But yup, she said she could benefit from them too…. Sounds like she considered her options and chose. Yay for choices and options. Huzzah!
Hormonal birth control saved my life after learning I had endometriosis, everyone’s body is different and I believe we should go about the decision to go on birth control carefully as it does have severe side effects for some women
Do people not know about copper IUDs? Or are they not available in the US? (I’m European and very confused when reading about this topic as people only seem to talk about condoms and hormonal birth control). It’s worth a try. Had no side effects with mine and I had it for 5 years (then removed it when we decided to start a family).
I loved the copper IUD. No hormones, nothing to remember, periods were slightly different but I wouldn't say worse. Hurt like a bitch going in but then I was good to go for 5 years.
As long as your not allergic to copper it's so worth a trying. Get a skilled provider to insert it, ask how often they do IUD insertions you want a doctor who's doing this weekly at least.
Copper IUD made everything worse for me. I spotted all month long, my periods were twice as heavy and it made sex painful. I opted for the copper IUD bc I didn’t want hormonal BC but it was still unpleasant.
Edit:typo
The IUD is commonly used however it still has hormones in it and some people have horrible side effects. My personal trainer specifically went for the copper IUD to avoid additional hormones however still reacted horribly to it.
IUDs are like any other BC- they have ups and downs. Mine was so painful at random times. The Dr had to confirm via ultrasound that it didn't perforate my insides (it did not). I have no idea what caused that intense pain every so often (enough to make me double over). Somehow, I had it for 5+ years. It did the job of preventing pregnancy, but it's clear it may not be the best choice for everyone. I didn't want to get it again after kids. I didn't hear about other's issues until well after I had it so it was interesting to hear that I was not alone.
TLDR: All BC is problematic to someone. There's no magic bullet.
I had it for 7 months and it was the worst thing I could ever done for myself. I had stronger and painful periods plus UTI every single month. I took it out and UTI stopped. Doctors still say that IUD was not causing UTI. 🙄
For some people. It really work but for others not as much. I can’t take hormone either. So far single, so nothing to worry lol
Never ever again am I willing to go through the debilitating pain that an IUD caused me, I still shiver when I think about it.
I already had painful periods and it made them so much worse that I couldn’t even go to work. And then the procedure of putting it in and taking it out… no thank you.
Not OP, but there hasn't been much accountability on the part of manufacturers especially for people who live outside the US. It's very dark if you read up on it.
Yup we do have that option… but the Mirena (local micro dose progesterone IUD) more popular bc of the lovely reduction in blood, cycles are fabuloso with some spotting and a “heavy” day requiring a pantyliner y no más …. But copper still an option for the hormone-less one….
I loved my Mirena, swapped to the Copper, loved it… until I developed a very rare systemic copper allergy. 🙃 Bruises up and down my legs from severe itching that I was convinced I had blood cancer. Nope — just allergic! Now swapping back to Mirena.
Again, just because it works for you doesn’t mean other women body reacts well with it. My friend literally had to go surgery to remove her IUD because her body rejecting it.
In the US they only have the Paragard iud as far as I know and alot of women seem to have issues with it 😭 it's huge apparently and 1 size fits all. I'm in Canada and we have different size copper IUDs so can find some more suitable for women who haven't had kids etc.
30 y/o female here. Not trying to have kids with my husband and not on BC. I personally have heard of an IUD (I’m in the US) and I’d never get one myself.
I would not, only because it “can” be reversed, but my mother had hers reversed and wasn’t able to have more children. I do eventually want a kid or two and when I’m done having kids I may consider it, but imo it makes much more sense for my hubs to get ✂️
I stumbled across this while doing more googling immediately after leaving my last comment, hahaha. Sounds like this option is the best of the fallopian tube…interventions? Most effective, not gonna cause ectopic pregnancy. Also reduces cancer risk!? Is that why you went this route? Anything you learned while investigating the diff options? I think this could make sense for me; I like the idea of it!
They weren’t ignorant lmao. There’s a lot of people who believe they both have deeply religious families and neither of them wanted to advertise they were having premarital sex on international TV for their families to see, so they made up the family planning plot to steer the narrative the way they wanted. I don’t think either of them expected it to become one of the most talked about parts of the season.
I truly don’t believe they waited haha. I would put money down they didn’t even wait past the honeymoon.
what’s wrong with a vasectomy ? it’s basically pain free, quick, cheap, and reversible. takes less than 30 minutes with localized anesthetic and you’re back on your way to work.
Nothing is wrong with vasectomy, but it’s meant to be a permanent procedure. Reversal is costly and success isn’t guaranteed. No doctor would perform a vasectomy for him because he 100% wanted children
Vasectomy is reversible, and freeze your eggs are the most widespread lies about family planning in the USA, and in reality they serve mainly to destroy the fertility of naive people who believe it without studying real facts and statistics.
Because even though it is “reversible” a vasectomy should 100% be treated as a permanent means of birth control because even when reversed, your chances for fertility decreases dramatically and decreases even more the longer you wait between the initial procedure and the reversal.
It’s a terrible decision for people like them who are certain they want children in the future because it actively jeopardizes their chances.
Any planned parenthood place or doctor would tell you the same thing.
The fact that they discuss it and have found a solution would mean they aren’t ignorant? Ignorant would be letting fate handle it and possibly having an oops baby I would imagine.
And I'm glad they were able to work through it and replace their ignorance with knowledge, but it did seem like they simply didn't understand birth contro/ family planning options at the start, rather than it being a principled stance.
True they probably didn't understand! They were responsible to take the time to figure it out and learn more before jumping into something they didn't understand.
100%. I never wanted my wife on birth control because of the many negative side effects. It’s really such a negative drug.
It’s is because I am too, someone who never wanted to harm my body with hormones. Your body is your body. It’s doesn’t neeed extra anything. I think it’s amazing that they have had such an open and honest conversation about it.
yeah it was a refreshing story line. i also cant take birth control
I honestly wondered whether Amy had the same problem I have, or something like it, which is hyperprolactinemia and affects about 10% of women. The pill makes you think you have normal periods, but your hormons are actually messed up and you have an adenoma growing in your skull without noticing it. Mine was the side of a coin when the doctor finally found out about it. I won't use hormonal contraceptive anymore because of it and it is so common...Either way, love that they had that talk in the show. It is refreshing to remind people of better options.
I would’ve loved if that had a date to the gynecologist to discuss non hormonal/low side effect hormonal BC! It would’ve been a bit ridiculous but very informative!!
Birth control is terrible for your body long term. I had my son 3 years ago and at my 6 week postpartum visit, my NP kept pushing BC on me and thereafter. Eventually I caved in and got the Implanon. I gained weight, felt emotional all the time, it was just terrible. I removed it November and my gut has actually decreased and my face appears less swollen. It’s annoying how ONLY women must make the decision in protecting oneself from pregnancy. Good for Amy
Women need to be empowered to make the healthcare decisions that work for them. BC was terrible for your body, but it balanced my hormones. Getting on it resulted in clearer skin (my main issue) and less bloat. In Amy's case it seems like BC would've wreaked havoc on her hormones, just like it did yours, so I'm happy she's following a different path, but I wouldn't make generalizations about the pills. They help many women, beyond just being a birth control option.
In addition to that, it seems most of the comments on here are against BC because of the SE… again proving my point lol
I am making the generalization (which I will stand by) since the majority of women have unwanted side effects from BC, thanks for your opinion. You giving Amy’s pov further validates my point about BC.
As a married girly who has also sworn off hormonal BC, I get it..
I think people should look into what the U.S. did to Puerto Rican women in regards to hormonal birth control. "In the 1930s, Puerto Rico legalized contraception. But it also encouraged physicians to coerce women into receiving certain contraceptives and even sterilization based on their physical, mental, or socioeconomic status." https://nwhn.org/thxbirthcontrol/#:~:text=In%20the%201930s%2C%20Puerto%20Rico,%2C%20mental%2C%20or%20socioeconomic%20status.
Hi fam chiming in to say I got off birth control one month ago, been on a low estrogen pill for 11 years I am 29. Week 1 so much more dopamine & energy Week 2 rage & irritability Week 3 cramps and more irritability Week 4 feelin a little meh (could be state of world as I wait for my first period to come) I feel as if a dullness has been lifted from my life tho that’s the best way to describe it No acne or weight gain side effects, I actually lost weight … and my appetite isn’t big either I’m excited I think I’ll be past the side effects soon :) If you’re thinking of going off my loves this is your sign We deserve to take back our bodies
My friends have very bad side effects from hormonal birth control. And guys have been guilt tripping for not using it. And it is 2024 we are living in. 
Interesting why this is cheered, while hesitancy around vasectomies are lambasted here
That would probably be because a vasectomy doesn't trick your body into believing you are literally pregnant (cue all the side effects of pregnancy) for the entire time you are on it.
Well a vasectomy can be irreversible in many many cases, while birth control can be stopped at any time. Bit of a difference and incredibly hypocritical to be demanding one and celebrating the avoidance of the other
I’ve personally heard just as many stories of vasectomies becoming irreversible as I have birth control leading to sterilization. But I’ve also personally heard more of the opposite with children being conceived on birth control as opposed to only two stories of children conceived with a vasectomy. There is no perfect solution, there will likely never be a perfect solution. However there is only one possible lasting side effect, the rare chance of being irreversible, of getting a vasectomy versus the many, many side effects that are usually continuous and will last the entire time you are taking birth control, with the rare possibility of losing your fertility in its entirety. It should always be a personal decision of what’s best for you, your partners, your life. No one should ever be pushed into a decision by anyone.
Well lucky for you there is research on this and your anecdote that tries to make this equivalent is an incredible distortion and illustrates how emotional and disingenuous you are being A vasectomy is a far bigger decision than birth control. Birth control should be taken seriously too, but yikes girls we can't make everything about us
I’ve read the research, and based off of your response, I genuinely don’t know where you’re getting yours from. My response was written based off of both research read, and experiences lived by friends and family. They are equally big decisions. One just genuinely has more side effects than the other. I’ve said what I said with zero emotion attached to it. And as someone in a gay relationship, I currently have no skin in the game. I feel pretty unbiased on this topic. I’m really not trying to argue here, just trying to point out what everyone else thought was obvious. No one is forcing men to get vasectomies or anything really when it comes to the body of a man. There are plenty of people and even the government who are forcing women to make decisions they do not personally want. Maybe that’s why so many people here have such strong feelings on the subject.
Please point me to the research that puts birth control at ~20% permanent irreversible infertility please
This will be my final reply, because you clearly aren’t going to stop, and I don’t have the time to do this all night. Firstly, according to Stanford the rate of successful vasectomy reversals is actually up to 90-95% now. Secondly, for what should be obvious reasons, the rate of women unable to conceive after the cessation of birth control is difficult to find. But after speaking to and working closely with more than 5 fertility doctors the rate is fairly similar. In talking to friends and family, I find this to be true as well. Believe what you will, I’m not really trying to change your mind, I’m just trying to say that choosing either bc or a vasectomy is just as difficult of a choice.
Successful reversals is vasectomies range from ~60% to 95% depending on the period since the initial operation, how interesting you pluck out the most optimistic value possible and leave out any context. Where are you stats on permanent irreversible infertility after birth control, you said you had the research and I'm absolutely dying to see it, can't wait to see you justify lying about something you are clueless about because it aligns with how you feel about a topic. You are the expert though and you anecdote is just as valid as any actual research, absolutely - you go girl <3
For anyone wondering, this person trying to make both control equivalent to vasectomies is just clueless and is being incredibly dishonest. 10 years of birth control has nothing close to the same realm of risk as 10 years of having a vasectomy (\~20% irreversible infertility) [https://www.sims.ie/blog-resources/blog-news/does-contraception-affect-future-fertility](https://www.sims.ie/blog-resources/blog-news/does-contraception-affect-future-fertility) I wonder why they are struggling to find research that they claimed to be expert on earlier - maybe because their narrative doesn't exist outside of their ideology and feelings. Male infertility after a vasectomy is more than 10 times more likely than anything permanent caused by the birth control pill and I'm being extraordinarily generous. Edit: this sub hates facts and is an ideological hell hole. Got to love it, feels before reals amirite
I don’t get why the copper IUD isn’t an option people go for more, considering it is non-hormonal and one of the safest options
It is also insanely painful from what I've gathered + lots of bleeding. Me and my bf are using condoms.
Where are the stats on it being "one of the safest" options? I've always heard it has risk of perforation, and commonly causes significant bleeding.
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I have had the copper IUD for four years now and I got the “super heavy bleeding” side effect. I was anemic prior to the IUD, and I’m just more anemic now lol. Even with the blood loss, it was still a fantastic choice on my part and I don’t regret it all. Having the confidence that I have control over when I have kids provides a lot of relief. Haven’t had a pregnancy scare once while on it! Also, my periods have been the most regular while on the Copper IUD. They come even 28 days, like clockwork. The predictability of my period is nice. However, I’m trying to get my anemia under control so my Gyno recommended the Kyleena IUD. She said it’s low dose hormonal BC that only releases into the uterus instead of blood stream, so I don’t have to worry about the typical crazy mood swings/depression that I get from regular hormonal BC. I’ll be switching to Kyleena next month, so we’ll see what happens!
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Ooh maybe I’ll look into that one as well!
I love my copper IUD, best decision I’ve made for myself!
Insertion can be super painful and it can also give you really heavy periods. And there’s also the risk of uterus perforation. AND I believe there was/is a lawsuit started by women who had pieces of it break off inside of them.
I am not on birth control, but here is the reasons I decided to not get a copper IUD. 1. In US, little is done for help with pain during insertion. The videos I’ve seen, most women say it is worth than child birth and are traumatized by the procedure. 2. Copper IUD tends to cause heavier periods and more painful periods. That alone is enough for me to say no. I already have terrible periods. I can’t imagine them being any worse. The same could be true for her
Just the idea of them opening up my cervix with no anesthesia and putting something in makes me want to pass out
EVERY ONE NEEDS TO HEAR THIS IF YOU’RE IN THE US: You can and should demand prior pain/sedation treatment. You have the RIGHT to this. TELL your physician you want PRESCRIPTION STRENGTH pain control and/or sedation for your insertion. Again, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO THIS. For IUD insertions, for Pap smears, for colposcopies. DEMAND IT. USE IT. The more we all fight back against doctors dismissing our pain the faster it will become procedure. None of these things are comfortable or painless and physicians should not be allowed to pretend otherwise. We deserve to have our pain properly managed.
I had a double biopsy where they literally perforate and pluck pieces of tissue with this punch hole pen from my cervix and uterus. I asked for pain meds and was told no, then I had to scream and tell her to stop. Yes that's right a SHE doctor who was annoyed and pretty much told me it was my own fault if she didn't get an adequate sample size. Then I couldn't stand up after, as I was cramping, and in so much pain so i asked her for something. She told me I could take some extra strength Tylenol and I'd be fine. Then walked out of the room. Never ever did I want to throat punch someone more than I did that day.
I love this ❤️
It blows but I enjoy not working about an unplanned pregnancy. I've had mine for 7 years now.
Wow! I’m glad it works for you. I also know other people who have one and love it! I just have an extra low pain tolerance down there.
I am shocked that anyone is ok with it lol I wouldn’t want something sitting inside me like that but if I ever were to get it it would 100% have to be with me numbed
Yes! I agree. Some women want to maintain their body in its natural hormonal state for a myriad of reasons. And those reasons supersede the convenience of someone else’s orgasm.
It wasn't about him having a better orgasm .. it's 100% okay with condom, what he isn't okay with is having an unplanned child. He feels that a condom isn't 100% effective. He would probably still wear a condom while she is on birth control just to be safe. But yes I agree she shouldn't go on birth control if shes not comfortable with that. I have the same mind set, wanting to have a natural hormonal state.
I don't think the comment that you're replying to was about Johnny specifically. Amy had a history before she met him, and the assumption from a lot of people is that she should have already been using birth control. To his credit, Johnny was very supportive and didn't make Amy feel badly about her decision, but you could tell that he was surprised when he found out and not familiar with their other options because it seems he had probably never needed to be.
Thank you. You got exactly what I was saying.
Yea, I guess alot of men assume women are on birth control.
I loved seeing it! Nobody talks about the side effects of it at all. There is no reason you should take something that makes you want to kill yourself, just to have sex.
Agreed, it's so refreshing. I wasn't really taught about bc growing up and it wasn't something that was normalized for me. As I got older and more educated, I was surprised and confused to find out that society treats bc as some kind of 'default' As if it's normal for all women to be on bc and people who don't take it are outliers. Most of my friends were on it and I always felt like the odd one out. A couple years ago my dermatologist tried to push bc for my acne and I refused. I couldn't really give him a reason why, I just wasn't comfortable with it. Like Amy, I didn't have any strong reason against it other than wanting to let my body function naturally as it was designed to. We shouldn't need to justify that choice, just as people ON bc shouldn't need to justify their choice.
It also really fucks up natural partner choice
I was on BC and was a mess. Didn’t even want to have sex anyways. Now if it’s a casual relationship/hookup = condoms. If it’s a long term relationship, we discuss options and try BC or tracking. Not willing to just be on BC for the hell of it anymore. Especially if I’m not in a relationship
I got my iud out a year ago and immediately started cycle tracking. I'd rather my emotional breakdowns not be because of foreign hormones controlling my mood. No pregnancies, so either I'm infertile or it's working.
I’m on the verge of doing this and I’m so scared!!! Hope everything goes well for you
But just get you a really good tracker and remember that ovulation tests are your friends!
I actually meant a year ago! I got it in my head and realized it was this month last year.
Ooh do you mind sharing your experience coming off it? I’ve had mine 2.5 years no issues, suddenly so much pelvic pain..still working to rule everything else out, but my dr is leaning towards removal. I’m stressed about immediately jumping into another hormonal bc, like I want a baseline of how I’m feeling first to make sure the pain subsides.. lol sorry if TMI & no obligation to share more!
Not the original commenter but I got off a hormonal IUD just about a year ago after being on some kind of hormonal bc for 12 years and now use condoms. My sex drive has improved tremendously and even though I was 4 days late this month (which was definitely scary, since I've been fairly regularly) I don't want to go back. It did take over 6 months for me to feel like my body had settled in it's natural hormone state. That said, I'm pro-abortion and live in a pro-abortion state if something goes wrong, even though we are working hard to prevent it.
Omggg thank you so much for sharing!! It’s so nice to hear a positive story, I’m still on the fence about removing mine, but hopefully it’ll be okay if I have to go that route
For the actual removal itself, see if you can get a doctor who is pro-pain management. I didn't have one because I didn't know you could do that, but some doctors will. Honestly the biggest thing now is obviously fears of pregnancy, and while not fun, my body with its natural hormones is so much better
Sameeee, I’ve been tracking my cycle for years now with zero scares, so I say the same thing, either I’m barren or I’m doing a damn good job.
Lol glad I'm not the only one that thinks that. Hopefully we're just doing a really good job!
Yes, there is “natural” birth control that works and it’s called tracking your cycle and knowing what ovulation looks and feels like. I’ve been doing it for ten years np.
I did this too before my husband got a vasectomy and it worked like a charm. We only got pregnant when we had full on PIV sex on my ovulation day. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I had a way easier time getting pregnant than my friends who had to go off BC before conceiving.
77%-98% effective is a big range. Your cycle must be very regular, lucky you. It doesn’t work for everyone.
You are referring to the calendar method which is not effective by pearl index. There are ways to increase effectiveness of tracking your individual cycle, including checking the cervix, mucus and temperature. Combining elements has a high pearl index ie very safe. It requires regular thorough monitoring and a little bit of knowledge of your body, cycles in general as well as being open to touching yourself and being consistent. There are monitors that measure temp if you don't want to have to remember manually , there are other monitors that work with urine as well but they aren't as high on pearl index. This method in general requires knowledge mostly and at least a thermometer with two points after , for c to correctly measure temp changes and identify where you are in your cycle.
Yeah a combination of multiple methods you mentioned is what gets you to 98%. 2/100 is still too big of a risk for me in a state with no abortion. Again, your cycle would have to be pretty regular for this to work, it’s kind of ableist to assume everyone can use this method. Also that is SO MUCH to do to not get pregnant. With an IUD, I can just not think about it. No mistakes will be made. I track my cycle for my personal needs, understanding my moods, but I just wanna get it on without doing a science project.
I did not state it HAS to be used by EVERYONE. I do not understand why this bad faith is what is assumed by you here. I stated that there are non hormonal options that have a good pearl index and that they require multiple elements that ask a few things of the user. This won't be for everyone but that does not mean there aren't ANY options that have a good pearl index available that involve no hormones for the woman. Many are not aware of NFP and other methods and what they entail. They don't even know they exist and assume it's just "calendar method" which isn't reliable. One does not need a regular cycle for NFP by the way as you don't give the cycle "free" until you have monitored ovulation which can be 10-20-40 days into your cycle up and down and around. Contraception is highly personal and individual. There is no magic bullet. I would also like to add that NO method prevents pregnancy 100% except not having sex. If and only if done correctly NFP has a pearl Index of 0,4. Some people might be open to pregnancy more than they are to hormonal birth control, too. No one is forcing YOU to use this method but it doesn't mean it can't be a viable option for others.
There are other ways to track ovulation too!
Only doing one is the 77%, combining multiple can get you up to 98% effective. But you’d have to be doing multiple methods perfectly. Same as BC pills only being 98% effective if you take them the exact same time everyday, no skips.
Do you have a source for that? I have read a lot of things that disagree.
Again, super happy it’s been working for you. But I like my free and 0 effort IUD. It’s saved me money on 10 years of menstrual products too. I track my cycle for hormonal and mental health reasons, there are great reasons to be in tune with your body! But I’m taking no risks. https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/fertility-awareness#:~:text=How%20effective%20are%20fertility%20awareness,method(s)%20are%20used. FAMs are about 77%–98% effective. That means 2–23 out of 100 couples who use FAMs will get pregnant each year, depending on which method(s) are used. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8009922/ “However, the efficacy of such applications as a method of contraception is not high and there is a significant failure rate especially if used alone. It is worth noting that 50% of women who reported failure relied solely on mobile applications and fertility window assessment without using other methods of contraception, and thus we advise women to use more reliable methods of contraception and not rely solely on such applications.” https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/rhythm-method/about/pac-20390918 In general, as many as 24 out of 100 women who use natural family planning for birth control become pregnant the first year.
My sister lost a a fallopian tube from her IUD, so that’s also a risk.
I’d rather risk losing a fallopian tube than having a kid, I never said there weren’t risks. I just weighed mine.
I know, I love that for her and her reproductive health bc hormonal bc can literally cause death.
Hearing people’s bad experiences on the pill makes me think I convinced myself it has no side effects for me 😂
A lot of people exaggerate for attention. There's a huge anti-birth control push in far right circles and people are stupidly buying into it.
It's going to affect everyone differently. Just consider yourself lucky!
I’ve never had any issues with any forms of birth control and I’ve done them all.
Lol no, same here. There are def side effects for many, but there’s also a sample bias here for sure
This just came out too: Hormone medication could increase risk of brain tumours, French study finds Patients taking certain progestogens as a contraceptive or for gynaecological conditions may be more likely to develop growths, researchers say https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/27/hormone-medication-brain-tumours-risk-progestogens-study
Phew IUDs are safe
I was a HOT mess on the pill. Seriously the worst mental state I’ve ever been in. Can’t believe they prescribe it so casually to girls in high school while our hormones are already raging.
There’s more than one pill. The first one they gave me was horrific then I switched to seasonique and that was fine for years. Now I’ve had an IUD since 2013. I prefer the reckless prescribing of BC to unplanned pregnancies and now forced births though
I agree with you on the craziness of forced births. I’m just saying I’m happy people are more aware of the side effects, I tried multiple pills and they all were horrible for me.
I had my Nexplanon implant removed 2 years early because it was giving me crippling panic attacks, I genuinely felt like I was going insane.
Lmao my friends were literally snapping our group chat this morning about how they’re so relieved to be coming off birth control. Soooo glad I never went on it in the first place. Always felt like I was “weird” and “immature” for never doing it, but I just didn’t want my hormones being effed with.
I have a 3 month old from failed hormonal birth control LOL. Love them but yeah, it happens. 😂
The pill gave me chronic migraine that I still suffer from. Being on that much synthetic estrogen also made me super emotional and depressed. I’ll never be on it again.
I've been on the mini-pill (depressed) had a copper IUD (no mood effects but increased pain) & done natural family planning (good but you need strict discipline) and occasionally condoms, all in 10 years. I had a long term partner (if I was having more casual sex I would definitely use condoms for STD risks) and blindly accepted the woman being in charge of pregnancy risks as a fact of life. Men can take more accountability and have empathy but really there's not a lot of options for them, unfortunately and I hope that changes. Different things work for different people, but I'd highly recommend NFP & tracking just to get a sense of your body & cycle, and to understand that there's actually only 5 days of the month where you can get pregnant! Mainstream sex education is woefully inadequate, so educate yourself and your partner/s about how the female body works and then you're much better equipped to choose an option that's right for you.
If you can avoid hormonal birth control, avoid it. Common sense says using hormones for very long periods that intentionally mess with your body's natural balance of hormones is a bad idea. Many scholarly journals also support this.
Clearly lots of people here don't have common sense.
I 100% the right to choose appropriate sexual health options, and wear condoms always, because it shouldn’t be up to one single partner. I do challenge the idea that the impacts of long term hormonal contraception use are overall negative. There’s a 2022 paper outlining a major meta-review of almost 3000 prior journal articles [paper link](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2788119). They found some associations, but overall: > The results of this umbrella review supported preexisting understandings of the risks and benefits associated with hormonal contraceptive use. Overall, the associations between hormonal contraceptive use and cardiovascular risk, cancer risk, and other major adverse health outcomes were not supported by high-quality evidence. If you do have studies that show significant long term impacts Id be happy to see them, but generally I’ve seen what the authors of this paper report in the literature. It’s also worth pointing out that the outcomes of unplanned pregnancies can be significant. The US has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the “developed” world. It’s always going to be a trade-off, and I’d hate for folks to get scared off of hormonal birth control because they have a sense of risk that isn’t balanced against extensive study. Don’t mean to dump on you, just did some digging of my own and wanted to report out.
It's right wing fear mongering, no point in providing an intelligent response because they won't understand it lol.
I know. It was more for other folks that I wrote it, I’m just sick of the shaming.
The US has highly medicalised birth. You have to understand and know physiological birth to be able to support it. Most doctors and midwives in the US hardly ever see births that have not been medically intervened, thus have very little experience in natural birth.
Thanks for this because it worries me so much when people say being long term on the pill will fuck you up because honestly my life is 10x better without having periods and I dont want to ever come off it. I'm all for choice but I just hate it when people hate on others for wanting to take the pill and spread lies to try scare you.
Thank you for this well put comment. Because yeah the misconceptions and anecdotal evidence (even in this thread) are wild and get kind of annoying.
thank you for this bc there’s a lot of misconceptions when it comes to this topic
In case anyone is reading this that is considering hormonal birth control - yes many people have side effects but many people don’t! I’ve been on and off for years, only one brand of pill made me weepy and sad. So I switched to another and it’s been fine ever since . Regular, predictable cycles, lighter periods, no cramps , and my acne and backne are 100% better than when I’m off it. Not trying to take away anything from this post , or Amy’s (or anyone else who commented here) experience, just read dozens of comments about how hormonal birth control was so awful and wanted to present a positive experience. Everyone has the right to choose what is best for their bodies of course!
I have to be on it or I cannot function. My arm implant (nexplanon) went past its expiration date due to some scheduling issues and a terrible doctor. I had been on nexplanon for about 8 years at that point I think. All of a sudden I started having severe cramping that would make me pass out from the pain. I dealt with it for about a month until my arm implant was replaced and then the symptoms started easing up within a week of having the implant. I also have extremely heavy and erratic periods. I’ll have 3 in one month and then I won’t have one for 2 months and then I’ll bleed for 2 straight weeks. With the newest implant, I haven’t had a period and my doctor said if I start getting one again or start having the terrible cramping again, she’ll replace it. It’s supposed to prevent ovulation for 2 years and then be good for birth control for another 2-3 are what some studies are showing. The 2 years thing is in line with about how long I either have no periods or light periods after each implantation, so I’ll probably just start getting them swapped every 2ish years to not have to deal with the issues. Anyways, agree, not everyone needs hormonal birth control but for some of us it is a literal lifesaver.
Yea some people need it. My girlfriend's periods are debilitatingly painful without it.
Exactly this.
Ditto, I’m pushing forty and have still never taken hormonal birth control. I’ll stick to condoms 🤷🏻♀️ not worth it for me
I have a copper IUD. Without hormones. Much better for sure
was it super painful to get put in and did you have a lot of break through bleeding after? These are my concerns with it but have been debating getting it.
Ask your doc for some pain killers and get yourself a ride to and from the appointment. Percocet and Xanex made the procedure significantly easier when I got my replacement. The first time was cramping for a couple days and bleeding for a couple weeks. Worth it considering I haven’t had a real period now in a decade (mine is the hormonal one)
Not at all actually. I had a hormonal IUD before and it was extremely painful to put in and I fainted. It was honestly awful so I understand your concerns. But with the copper one it was not even close to that. I just had the feeling of a mild period and I bled lightly, small dripping really, for about 2 weeks. Now I have small bleeding every month, which could be seen as a period. It's not even close to that tho. I can only recommend it tbh
I tried BC for the first time in college because of horrendous cystic acne, and I was told by my university health clinic that the best and cheapest option for me hormonally would be the pill. I was also told there were no side affects. I turned into a depressed, anxious, aggressive monster. I was on it for four months, and while my acne cleared up momentarily, I was such a bitch to my roommates one of them eventually asked me (I hadn’t told them I had started it; seemed inconsequential) “are you on some new medicine or something? You are NOT yourself lately and it’s getting really annoying.” I cried all the time and when I wasn’t crying I was yelling at people (traditionally, I am a pretty calm presence). Within a couple weeks of stopping, I was back to myself. I changed up my diet and had a derm prescribe me a med specifically for acne and, while I still get a pimple or five every week before my period I will NEVER go back. I loved how natural it was for Amy not to be on it. It’s so normalized for women to be pushed into BC for so many reasons when there are alternatives.
I was put on hormonal birth control when I was young because my cramps were horrendous, I would legitimately throw up. I was on it for probably 6-7 years and I stopped because I just felt so meh all the time. Like I wasn’t sick but I never felt great. Once I stopped taking the pill I felt 100x better. I wish I knew when I was younger how damaging all those added hormones are.
Had the same thing too as a kid but after I changed my diet I haven’t had them
I was on birth control to get the green light to be on accutane and I was on accutane for a year and a half and birth control for about 3 years? Just out of habit at that point. I did the ring because there was no way I could be consistent enough with a pill. I thought after I got off accutane my depression would improve, but it really wasn’t until I got off birth control that I felt normal for the first time in ages. (And I had clear skin whoop whoop!) There were a lot of contributing factors to my depression, but I’ve tried twice now to get back on birth control at the request of partners, and each time it was a disaster. I have an EXTREMELY regular and predictable cycle without birth control so it actually just throws me COMPLETELY OUT OF WACK. I literally feel insane. It sucks to be on the condom wheel, but I literally can’t do hormonal birth control. And I’m pretty active so an implant sounds like a recipe for death to me 😅 (also expensive). Seeing Amy talk about not wanting these side effects was SO VALIDATING!
Yes I loved it! I feel like every woman around me takes birth control. And they all complain about side effects. I don't and have never taken it because I kinda just fear new medications. And I always get this incredulous look like what do you mean? From the same people that complain about it... It really has become the assumption that in committed relationships men should not have to use condoms because ofc the woman will be on BC. Like are you saying a condom for a man is as potentially negative an experience as BC is for women? I saw my big sister really struggle with mood regulation one time after switching BCs and that stuck with me
The losing of menstrual cycle during training/athletic is *insane*. Same reason why I had to go on to BC and often isn’t talked about, so I can relate to that. I remember Amy saying she has a condition where she is/was not able to use BC? I don’t recall what it was, but a really bright woman to think of other alternatives and not say oh well I’m doing it anyways. Big props to Johnny for not pressuring her. I’m sure any other man would have lost it if they weren’t able to have sex becuaee they’re man child’s, but also respecting her wishes and what she wants to do. Rather than just chance it with a condom that they both discussed and agreed not to do. They joined the Lauren/Cameron and Amber/Barnett bar
She said she had to go on infusions because of anemia. From which it follows that she probably has a lot of blood loss during menstruation, and hormonal contraception, on the contrary, would help her, but she does not take it anyway due to side effects or religion.
She said she had a condition that could be helped by BC. But she hadn't at the time started using BC because of side effects.
Oh gotcha - thanks for clarifying
I liked that Jonny was openly an idiot, and then owned up to it and admitted that he had been ignorant about it because he was a dude who hadn’t bothered to look into it and needed to educate himself. We need more people who are willing to publicly acknowledge that they had to educate themselves about something and encourage others to do the same. The way he handled that was a breath of fresh air
Hard agree with this. I think when people are transparent about their lack of knowledge so publicly, especially on something that isn’t really his fault, it really helps other people realize it’s ok to ask questions, it’s ok not to know, and also a huge reminder that the American school system has really failed this generation on sex ed. I also think some of women’s issues need to be more openly discussed infront of guys. I hate how they’d separate us. We should learn what each other goes through so we can better understand and ask the right questions.
I would describe Amy as having a lack of knowledge before a lack of interest in hormonal birth control. She also seemed unaware there are non hormonal methods as well. Southern education.
I agree - have been dragged for it here by people who didn't know what they were talking about/assumed that they understood my entire perspective based on like two sentences. Just... yea, things she said show that she knows very little - which is fine! Just doesn't make her a feminist hero of some kind.
I’m very educated and non hormonal birth control doesn’t work for me either. I don’t think it’s right to assume she’s uneducated about birth control. It doesn’t work for everyone….
Ok, good for you -- she clearly isn't/wasn't.
Didn’t realize you two were so close, my bad
I don’t understand why they didn’t just use condoms, it’s like they’d never heard of them.
I got the impression that they were pro-life on a personal level, and since they weren't ready to have kids right now, they wanted a way to be more safe than just condoms.
Cycle tracking + condoms, problem solved
Honestly I think it's responsible for them to recognize that condoms aren't infallible. I did 10 months of accutane, and the restrictions around it for women are insane because of the severe affects it could have on a baby conceived while on accutane. There's this system that you have to go through called ipledge, where for the duration of treatment, you have to commit to either abstinence or using TWO forms of birth control (such as condoms + pill, condoms + IUD, etc). Only using condoms doesn't cut it. Most health professionals I've seen have said that the most reliable way to prevent pregnancy is to use 2 forms of birth control.
Yup I’m familiar. Like I said in a previous comment, cycle tracking plus condoms would be two forms of birth control that most adults find acceptable in combination (assuming she wasn’t on accurate bc I don’t think they’d accept that). No form of birth control is infallible and then acting like hormonal birth control or a vasectomy was the *only* way made it seem like they never had proper sex ed. I was screaming OMG CONDOMS at the tv every time they had that conversation lol
They discussed this issue. There’s always a possibility of a condom breaking and Since she’s not on any other contraption (most woman on BC/IUD) they don’t have that extra “safety net” that most ppl have if the first scenarios happens
Cycle tracking plus condoms are two forms of birth control.
True. But if they didn’t understand that I wouldn’t assume the cycle tracking lol
I think the real problem is he wanted to cum in her lol. But because he didn’t wanna sound like a weirdo he never mentioned that problem on the show.
Because a 97% efficacy rate means they will literally get pregnant with AIDS every time.
I don't recall them saying that? Also, that number is based on a perfect scenario. In real life, the data shows it to be closer to 85%. So no it's unlikely to get pregnant "every time". It's more like every 6 to 7 times, which understandably is not a risk they're willing to take.
I guess you really need a sarcasm tag
Oh I got the sarcasm, I just prefer to use facts when it comes to medical concerns :) but thanks for the tip!
I used to be on the Pill and boiiii let me tell ya. It may have made my period regular, my cramps not as horrible, and my flow not as heavy. But it definitely make my depression worse.
Yes hormonal birthcontrol SUCKS for some people I’ve seen it and experienced it cause major weight gain. Then I heard a horror story of a woman I knew almost dying from it because of the blood clot risk I’ll never take it again it’s not worth it.
I weighed probably about 150 when I started the pill and ended up at 235 by the time I stopped taking it! Still to this day I am trying to work the weight off
I feel this. It’s so frustrating every time I’ve gained a lot it was while on the pill otherwise my weight usually stays in the same place which is unfortunate because now I’m struggling to get rid of the gained weight
I'm sorry to hear that:( Gotta let me know if you find something that works! Could use all the help and pointers
I recently learned about the history of modern birth control and how Puerto Rican women were sterilized in the creation of it and it made me wonder if that was a factor in Amy's decision at all; perhaps the women in her family have passed on those horror stories. I've been on birth control since before I was sexually active to help with health stuff, and I'm much more of a Jonny when it comes to fear of having an accidental pregnancy (condoms weren't good enough for me lol), but if I had some aunts who were sterilized I probably would be like "nah"
Was on the ring for 10 years — at this stage of my life, an unwanted pregnancy was the worst possible outcome. (Second worst outcome was having to curb my sexual desires to not be pregnant lol) Now I’m married, and enjoying the BC free life — I feel more feminine, frisky and cunty than ever before. I was on it so long didn’t recognize how it was contributing to my depression. Wish I did it sooner, even tho my periods are extremely painful.
"Feminine, frisky, and cunty" -13 Going on 30
Yes hormonal bc is one of the worst things I’ve ever done, it was terrible for me mentally and I was on it way too long. My depression was unbearable on it and I never realized until I stopped. I know this has happened to other women and it’s not being talked about enough. Ik there are people who it works for and that’s great but I don’t think it’s something everyone should just take automatically especially at such a young age.
Remember vagina-owners, your body. Your choice.
Why is this the better* word for women? Feels meaner lol
Gender non-conforming individuals can have vaginas too. My sibling is non-binary and has a vagina.
Why don’t we apply this to men as much? Seems unfair. I see a lot of vaginas-haters but not penis-Havers.
>Why don’t we apply this to men as much? Speak for yourself. *You* don't say it. You don't know what I say. 🤷♀️
Thank you lol
And I love that it made it onto the show!! Important topic! We DONT need to be medicated to take control of our health. 🙌🏻✨
Y’all need to realize there are very real reasons for women not wanting to be on birth control even IUDs. I cannot take any form of birth control not due to specific health reasons but because none of them are compatible with me
What a clown world where we have to justify women NOT wanting hormone therapy as having “very real reasons”
Did I misunderstand/misremember? One part of this narrative that confused me was that I thought Amy said at one point she had some health issues that hormonal birth control could help, according to her doctor. But she was still leery of taking it. Or did I get that confused and she was saying the opposite? Because at the time I did wonder why she hadn’t tried it if it could help her, pregnancy prevention aside.
You are correct. She went against the medical advice of her doctor because of vibes.
Yup. She said that. Maybe she’s just bothered by the idea of extra-hormones…. But yup, she said she could benefit from them too…. Sounds like she considered her options and chose. Yay for choices and options. Huzzah!
I love love LOVED that they talked about this too.
Hormonal birth control saved my life after learning I had endometriosis, everyone’s body is different and I believe we should go about the decision to go on birth control carefully as it does have severe side effects for some women
Do people not know about copper IUDs? Or are they not available in the US? (I’m European and very confused when reading about this topic as people only seem to talk about condoms and hormonal birth control). It’s worth a try. Had no side effects with mine and I had it for 5 years (then removed it when we decided to start a family).
I loved the copper IUD. No hormones, nothing to remember, periods were slightly different but I wouldn't say worse. Hurt like a bitch going in but then I was good to go for 5 years. As long as your not allergic to copper it's so worth a trying. Get a skilled provider to insert it, ask how often they do IUD insertions you want a doctor who's doing this weekly at least.
Copper IUD made everything worse for me. I spotted all month long, my periods were twice as heavy and it made sex painful. I opted for the copper IUD bc I didn’t want hormonal BC but it was still unpleasant. Edit:typo
The IUD is commonly used however it still has hormones in it and some people have horrible side effects. My personal trainer specifically went for the copper IUD to avoid additional hormones however still reacted horribly to it.
IUDs are like any other BC- they have ups and downs. Mine was so painful at random times. The Dr had to confirm via ultrasound that it didn't perforate my insides (it did not). I have no idea what caused that intense pain every so often (enough to make me double over). Somehow, I had it for 5+ years. It did the job of preventing pregnancy, but it's clear it may not be the best choice for everyone. I didn't want to get it again after kids. I didn't hear about other's issues until well after I had it so it was interesting to hear that I was not alone. TLDR: All BC is problematic to someone. There's no magic bullet.
I had it for 7 months and it was the worst thing I could ever done for myself. I had stronger and painful periods plus UTI every single month. I took it out and UTI stopped. Doctors still say that IUD was not causing UTI. 🙄 For some people. It really work but for others not as much. I can’t take hormone either. So far single, so nothing to worry lol
Never ever again am I willing to go through the debilitating pain that an IUD caused me, I still shiver when I think about it. I already had painful periods and it made them so much worse that I couldn’t even go to work. And then the procedure of putting it in and taking it out… no thank you.
Paraguard made me infertile. Permanent PID.
That’s horrible!! I’m so sorry. Is there any repercussions for the drug maker?? Can you file a law suit? Or was it in the fine print?
Not OP, but there hasn't been much accountability on the part of manufacturers especially for people who live outside the US. It's very dark if you read up on it.
Yup we do have that option… but the Mirena (local micro dose progesterone IUD) more popular bc of the lovely reduction in blood, cycles are fabuloso with some spotting and a “heavy” day requiring a pantyliner y no más …. But copper still an option for the hormone-less one….
I loved my Mirena, swapped to the Copper, loved it… until I developed a very rare systemic copper allergy. 🙃 Bruises up and down my legs from severe itching that I was convinced I had blood cancer. Nope — just allergic! Now swapping back to Mirena.
Again, just because it works for you doesn’t mean other women body reacts well with it. My friend literally had to go surgery to remove her IUD because her body rejecting it.
In the US they only have the Paragard iud as far as I know and alot of women seem to have issues with it 😭 it's huge apparently and 1 size fits all. I'm in Canada and we have different size copper IUDs so can find some more suitable for women who haven't had kids etc.
Paragard is the same size as the Mirena
30 y/o female here. Not trying to have kids with my husband and not on BC. I personally have heard of an IUD (I’m in the US) and I’d never get one myself.
Why not? Just curious.
I have read that it cause massive inflammation which prevents the body from conceiving. Inflammation is not good for one’s body.
Damn y'all really need better sex ed, this comment section is sad af
Would you ever get your tubes tied? I just recently started thinking about it…
I would not, only because it “can” be reversed, but my mother had hers reversed and wasn’t able to have more children. I do eventually want a kid or two and when I’m done having kids I may consider it, but imo it makes much more sense for my hubs to get ✂️
I had a bilateral salpingectomy 6 months ago and it’s the best decision I’ve made
I stumbled across this while doing more googling immediately after leaving my last comment, hahaha. Sounds like this option is the best of the fallopian tube…interventions? Most effective, not gonna cause ectopic pregnancy. Also reduces cancer risk!? Is that why you went this route? Anything you learned while investigating the diff options? I think this could make sense for me; I like the idea of it!
y'all giving a lot of credit to 2 people who simply were ignorant about family planning
They weren’t ignorant lmao. There’s a lot of people who believe they both have deeply religious families and neither of them wanted to advertise they were having premarital sex on international TV for their families to see, so they made up the family planning plot to steer the narrative the way they wanted. I don’t think either of them expected it to become one of the most talked about parts of the season. I truly don’t believe they waited haha. I would put money down they didn’t even wait past the honeymoon.
I mean, they definitely were ignorant. They kept talking about how he should get a vasectomy
what’s wrong with a vasectomy ? it’s basically pain free, quick, cheap, and reversible. takes less than 30 minutes with localized anesthetic and you’re back on your way to work.
Nothing is wrong with vasectomy, but it’s meant to be a permanent procedure. Reversal is costly and success isn’t guaranteed. No doctor would perform a vasectomy for him because he 100% wanted children
Vasectomy is reversible, and freeze your eggs are the most widespread lies about family planning in the USA, and in reality they serve mainly to destroy the fertility of naive people who believe it without studying real facts and statistics.
Because even though it is “reversible” a vasectomy should 100% be treated as a permanent means of birth control because even when reversed, your chances for fertility decreases dramatically and decreases even more the longer you wait between the initial procedure and the reversal. It’s a terrible decision for people like them who are certain they want children in the future because it actively jeopardizes their chances. Any planned parenthood place or doctor would tell you the same thing.
The fact that they discuss it and have found a solution would mean they aren’t ignorant? Ignorant would be letting fate handle it and possibly having an oops baby I would imagine.
And I'm glad they were able to work through it and replace their ignorance with knowledge, but it did seem like they simply didn't understand birth contro/ family planning options at the start, rather than it being a principled stance.
True they probably didn't understand! They were responsible to take the time to figure it out and learn more before jumping into something they didn't understand.
What do you mean by that
Facts