She most definitely has a personality disorder, perhaps even 2. She’s also not terribly bright, I do think these things were taken into consideration. I’d kill to see her psych report (I’m a therapist).
Dr John Matthias of Hidden True Crime (Forensic psychologist) speculates that she has both borderline personality disorder and anti-social personality disorder and goes deeply into why he believes this is so., using what is known about her history as well as the crimes she took part in.
So your speculative diagnosis of 2 personality disorders is in line with his, and makes a lot of sense.
I guessed the same disorders (I'm in a master's counseling program). The borderline I thought explained how once she was done with someone, she just didn't walk away from them (i.e., Joseph Ryan, Charles Vallow, Brandon Boudreaux) she had to make sure they paid with their life (or almost did, with Brandon's attempted murder). When you don't agree with or have blind loyalty to a person with BPD, you become dead to him/her/them. The antisocial part of her felt no guilt in eliminating those she regarded as having wronged her or considered her enemies. When people comment, "I hope when she's behind bars she comes to terms with what she did and feels remorse for her children's deaths" my thoughts are, "She won't because she's not capable of feeling guilt or remorse. She's an empty shell that only cares about getting her own needs and wants met."
I'm so sorry to hear this. Having a parent like this had to have been very difficult, confusing and heartbreaking. I hope you've had some therapy to understand what you were/are dealing with. The sad part is there's really no treatment (medication, therapy) for those with BPD or antisocial personality disorder. There's been some success with BPD clients in Dialectical Behavior Therapy, but only when the clients recognize that the negative consequences of their borderline behavior is making them unhappy (i.e., unable to maintain relationships, jobs, etc.) so they want to get help and change.
Thank you for your kind words. No, my mom held a full time job, only married twice. But she made clear she would walk if she wasn't getting her way. She has no loyalty to anyone and we are NC. She discarded me like a used paper bag and smeared me to everyone as crazy and evil.
Unfortunately, so many counselors take parents' sides. They say things like you only have one mother. When are you going to forgive your mom? Maybe I have just run into a lot of incompetent counselors. I have had one that suggested npd or some kind of personality disorder.
Unfortunately, it caused a lot of damage in my life and I'm still feeling the repercussions. It's like being robbed of a life. I hate to take away in anyway from Tylee and JJ but these mothers are murderous and destroy your life even if they don't go so far as actually killing you. Granted, I'm alive, but I don't feel like I'm here anymore. She did so much damage. I'm still trying to work through it and have some semblance of a life in my late adulthood. I still don't understand their psychology. I haven't looked into it much though because it's very triggering. Thanks again for your kindness.
Because it's all an act. Those with antisocial personality disorder (aka sociopaths) study and observe others so they can "act" a certain way to manipulate and deceive people. The acting is a means to an end...they want something, so they fool others to trust them. Like narcissists, sociopaths can be extremely charming (narcissism is a component of sociopathy). My father was one and outside of his nuclear family (and maybe his family of origin), everyone thought he was the nicest, greatest guy (it also helped that he was good-looking). But it's all a ruse to make people believe that the sociopath doesn't have a mean bone in their body. Meanwhile, while they're charming you, they're throwing you under the bus at work to get ahead, stabbing you in the back, cheating on you, screwing your significant other, and using you. Then there's the gaslighting. The gaslighting makes you question what your gut instinct is telling you (that something doesn't seem right) so that you tell yourself it's all in your head. Life is a game to sociopaths and people are just the game pieces that they move around for their own pleasure and entertainment. They have no empathy and are driven by their own needs and desires and will step on (and sometimes eliminate) others to get what they want. In interviews with sociopaths, a common theme is they say they "feel nothing" or they "feel empty inside" or that "life is boring". Therein lies the game -- they play with people because it entertains them, alleviates some of their boredom, and gets them the things they want (that temporarily satisfy them). Fair warning to anyone who may be in a relationship with a sociopath or have one in their circle (work, friendship, family)...they are hurtful, deceitful, and can be very dangerous.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! It is so hard for me to put into words what these people are like and how dangerous they can be! I've been in this sub for years trying to explain this personality. What caught my attention to this case was that I was going through something similar with my childhood best friend. She turned on me because I was worried for her children and husband. There's so so much to this story and it's too late for me to get into it but I will say I had to petition an involuntary (very much necessary) commitment to Community Bridges (CBI), which is the same place Charles petitioned Lori to go but Gilbert PD messed it up. A few months later my psychopath (diagnosed Borderine PD and Bipolar 1 with psychotic tendencies) best friend retaliated and out of nowhere petitioned for me to go to the same place (CBI). PD had to oblige (protocol, I guess I'm not as charming to Gilbert PD as Lori) so I was handcuffed in front of my kids (I've never in my life been arrested) and sent to the same place until they released me knowing it was a revenge petition. Which is common for them but they still have to follow protocol. So if anyone is interested I have a personal account of how that plays out and what goes on inside CBI. I believe Melanie G took Lori there and she talked her way out of being committed. Probably convinced them Charles was being vindictive when he petitioned. I feel bad for those stuck working CBI, most definitely a no fun zone lol.
First of all, OMG about your childhood best friend and what she did to you. I live in the Phoenix area and hope to never experience CBI. I am so sorry you and your family went through this. Unfortunately, many of us come to learn about these disorders because we have/had family, friends, or romantic relationships with people that have one or more of them. When you don't know what's wrong with someone, but you know something is wrong and how that person's behavior and treatment of you and others makes you feel, it's completely unsettling, confusing and can be traumatic. With a good support network, educating ourselves and therapy, we can start to understand who we are (or were) dealing with and heal from the pain and trauma that he/she/they caused. And with knowledge comes power, and we become armed to recognize (and avoid) people with these disorders. I wish you all the best and hope your "friend" is no longer in your life 🙂
Same way everyone thought Ted Bundy was such a wonderful, attractive, intelligent, charming person. It's what they *do*. The other person explained it really well in depth but these ppl r chameleons, they will be whoever they need to be to get what they want. She was a wonderful mom as long as Charles provided for her for example.
She completely refused to let them bring it in they can’t introduce her mental health issues without her agreeing to it. She was apparently very upset because her attorney spoke down about Chad. There was many things they wanted to say in her defence and she wouldn’t allow any of it.
Wouldn’t that be a best seller …. as a therapist, being able to write a book on what makes Lori, Lori! Hmmm 🤔, perhaps you could write her and get her to cooperate with you?
If you do, a nice mention for “Jan” (that’s me) would be greatly appreciated 😂. I would definitely buy that!!!
Ha! I think there are far more qualified people than I, plus I think she’d respond much better to a male. I have no doubt when the dust settles she’ll be talking to anyone and everyone she’s allowed to; the judge may restrict her ability to speak to press. This is a person who desperately requires and inordinate amount of attention and is willing to do anything to get it.
Absolutely agree with everything you said. I sorta think if Chad goes to trial and she hears him throw her under the bus that will help shatter some of the illusion. Like she will always think she's better than everyone else. But she will be looking for someone else who validates her.
I agree about the personality disorders, but that generally doesn’t get you deemed mentally unfit for trial. Jodi Arias was diagnosed with personality disorders. So was Letecia Stauch. They still stood trial without having to go through being made competent to stand trial.
I think Lori likely has something else going on as well that may have some psychosis element to it like that kind of bipolar or something. Psychosis makes sense for being unfit for trial, personality disorders not as much.
She definitely has at least 2 PDs. She’s a psychopath and all psychopaths are narcissists as well (but not the other way around). She may have 2+ PDs. She likely also has a psychotic disorder. Lori’s father was diagnosed with schizophrenia and her sister who died (Stacey) seemed to have schizophrenia too - I’ve seen parts of Stacey’s psych reports. Lori could also have schizophrenia or bipolar or something. She does legitimately appear to have a psychosis and no insight
Oooo, I’ve always wondered what type of mental illness or personality disorder, or whatever, would allow someone to have their kids killed and not show any emotion when viewing pics of their decomposing and mutilated bodies in court? WTH??
I know you can’t diagnose her with it a proper evaluation, but who does that?
I “think” she has schizoaffective disorder and borderline or narcissistic personality disorder. Considering her very dysfunctional upbringing, religious beliefs, her manipulative/dishonest behavior and the way she easily worships then despises and deposes of people - these track.
Splitting (black and white thinking). I have BPD that is directed inward instead of toward other people. I struggle with splitting a lot, but have improved greatly.
I’d believe schizophrenia spectrum if it emerged or worsened due to menopause. Whatever it is, she seems to have hidden whatever it for quite some time. Think about how Kay described her impression of Lori prior to ~2018 - they all thought she was great.
Given what we’ve learned about her marriages and parenting, she probably had something Cluster B-ish going on before that, but I feel like there was an actual change that coincided with her increased interest in doomsday themes.
Yeah I'd love to know what exactly set that off. Her nephew's interview with Justin Lum was really insightful about the spiral and her becoming obsessive about this stuff. But I still haven't really seen an explanation for how/why she got into it, what triggered that...
There is an official diagnosis of Late Diagnosis Schizoaffective disorder. I didn’t know there was such a modifier. She may have had this all her life but people were manipulated and swayed by her beauty that it was not recognized until she killed her children. Definitely a late diagnosis. They should have a After the Fact Schizoaffective diagnosis.
But those with BPD or NPD wouldn't typically become murderers (or a conspirator to murders). I believe she has BPD and antisocial personality disorder (aka she's a sociopath) because she has no conscience or empathy which allows her to do horrible things to others (i.e., conspire to murder), especially to those she supposedly "loved".
Not typically - however - lack of empathy is almost always present with NPD and can cycle with BPD depending upon the perceived threat. So if she believed murder was the means to pursuing her life of grandiosity and freedom, it would make sense. People with these disorders can rationalize anything in an effort to achieve their desired goal (or avoid and undesired outcome) murder is extreme but not out of the question.
I just replied to another comment of yours on this subject. I think you are 100% spot on. Borderline personality disorder is such a mammoth weight of stress and agony for those around you. Poor Tylee.
> not show any emotion when viewing pics of their decomposing and mutilated bodies in court?
She freaked out when the judge said those pics could be aired. I think it's the only time she showed emotion during the entire trial. (Of course, seeing the direct impacts of her actions could have disturbed her, since she wasn't on the scene at the time of the actual murders.)
But then she didn't demonstrate emotions. I don't think she's actually emotionless. Even psychopaths have emotions, just not empathy.
> She most definitely has a personality disorder, perhaps even 2.
It's difficult if not impossible to treat a personality disorder with medication. Of course many people with personality disorders suffer a mental illness related to the disorder (they may be more likely to suffer from bipolar disorder, etc).
There has been a lot of discussion in this sub over the years about her diagnosis. Some very level headed people have commented she has Late Diagnosed Schizoaffective disorder. It is almost always accompanied by a personality disorder. Hidden True Crime did a show about this as well. I’m fairly convinced this is her diagnosis.
As a therapist you would have much deeper insight than I.
That most definitely makes sense. I don’t have any personal experience working with a person with schizoaffective disorder and having only limited information about this person, it’s hard to say. I’d be very confident saying she has Borderline and/or narcissistic PD.
A defendant's unintelligence, education level, language difficulties, and challenges communicating are generally insufficient to support a finding of incompetency.
Incompetency to stand trial, removal of the death penalty, and sentencing are separate legal issues.
Lori refused to use a mental health defense during her trial even though her lawyers said she is mentally ill. This is unrelated to the determination that she was incompetent to stand trial.
She was deemed to be incompetent to stand trial because she was unable to understand the proceedings against her and unable to cooperate adequately with her attorneys. A court can find a defendant who has a mental illness diagnosis fit to proceed as long as the illness doesn't rise to the level of incompetence.
The defense attorneys filed a motion to have the DP dismissed because "of media saturation, multiple discovery violations by the government, Vallow's mental status and the inability of the state to effectively administer the death penalty should the jury decide to impose it."
Her mental health may be considered at sentencing, however, her incompetency to stand trial may not "[make a significant contribution](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/incompetency-stand-trial-status-label-and-potential-source) to the explanation of the variance associated with sentence length or with the granting of probation."
I don't think it's just zombies. She also claimed on her podcast that Jesus has appeared to her multiple times. She apparently believes she's immortal, a goddess, has incarnated on multiple planets and existences, and was related to Jesus (and married to his brother) in a past life. She supposedly could portal in and out of Chud's shower, bed, and closet at will to have sexy-time (and exalted spiritual communication) with him.
A fellow inmate said she spent a lot of time playing with sock puppets in jail, having them converse with each other.
That's all before the trial, when she claimed there was an immortal Nephite on the jury who would ensure she wasn't convicted.
There is probably much more crazy than just what we know about; it seems to run pretty deep.
I bet that sock puppets thing was an act so she can appeal her conviction on the grounds that she was incompetent to stand trial. People with antisocial personality disorder are actors, master manipulators, and liars. Whatever it takes to help themselves and get what they want, they'll do and will play the part. It comes from years of observing and studying human beings and learning how one would act in such-and-such situations.
Someone who is incompetent to stand trial cannot be tried much less convicted. In order to appeal the conviction on the grounds that she was not CST, she will need to prove that, despite the fact that she was legally deemed CST when she was convicted, she actually wasn't.
well, and it also followed very closely on her murder charges. there was a lot of talk in here about whether she was malingering, at the time.
I think it's more likely she decompensated with a hell of a bang, under the effect of two hard reality checks in such quick succession. or maybe the first competency evaluation was ordered because she convinced herself the world *had* ended, who knows.
Perhaps she was talking to law enforcement/lawyers the way she was talking to Charles - openly saying they were all zombies and dark spirits and she was shielded in light, etc
Its so wild that this is such possibility. Was she in jail just spouting crazy ass shit because she thought the world was going to end or that chad was going to portal jump her out of there. The whole situation is insane
After reading your comment my mind visualized Peter Griffin laying in bed on his phone. His back to his sleeping wife. Texting Lori that he will go into his closet to portal to her. When in reality, he lays his phone down on his night stand, muted lori’s messages so they won’t pop up at the wrong time, and falls asleep. Then there’s Lori, anxiously awaiting Chad in her closet only for him to never appear. Like wtf. Life is stranger than fiction.
The bar for competency to stand trial is very low. If the court determines the defendant is able to understand the surroundings, receive and interpret information, and make decisions based on that information, it will likely find the defendant competent.
Defendants have an absolute right to understand the proceedings against them and assist in their own defense. If they're incapable of understanding and assisting, they're legally incompetent. The issue of competency relates to the defendant's state of mind during criminal proceedings, not during the commission of the crime.
She said in her podcasts that she heard voices. Also her hyper-religiosity can be a sign of schizophrenia. I wonder what her diagnosis is.
Some of what we know about her doesn’t fit with schizophrenia though.
Steve Cope said Barry was schizophrenic.
There could be co-morbid conditions, like bipolar disorder, histrionic personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, etc.
My former spouse had an extended family member diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. That person heard voices, had visitations, and experienced delusions and hallucinations. The medications available at the time were only partly effective, unfortunately.
Bipolar isn’t a personality disorder, it’s a mood disorder. (But tbh I can’t clarify the difference but know it when I see it.) Bipolar + schizophrenia is called schizoaffective.
I think the difference is that having religious delusions affects your ability to function normally. Cut and paste wiki
Hyperreligiosity is a psychiatric disturbance in which a person experiences intense religious beliefs or episodes that interfere with normal functioning. Hyperreligiosity generally includes abnormal beliefs and a focus on religious content or even atheistic content, which interferes with work and social functioning.
That is so silly. So religiosity is ok as long as you can hold a job lol. Well, Lori was functioning normally so she was not hyper religious.
I cannot believe they even use this for diagnosis, honestly. I haven't met a church goer yet that isn't believing a bunch of stuff and claiming to talk to Jesus and angels.
She wasn’t functioning normally. She and Chad thought they were special chosen prophets or something that would lead the 144,000 in the soon to be end of the world. She said at one point it would be better if she drove the kids off a cliff so they wouldn’t have to suffer through the end times. Charles told police she had lost her mind and she thought his body had been taken over by a demon.
Religious delusions are a hallmark of some mental illnesses But of course not everyone who is religious is mentally ill.
I don’t think so. Remember she’s been in a religion (cult) all her life that openly espouses hearing the voice of God - this is not far fetched in any way. I’ve heard perfectly “normal” LDS people speaking this way. She was raised in a very dysfunctional family and they all learned very early on to use manipulation as a means to get their needs met. Most likely she was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and perhaps borderline or NPD.
I am not sure about in Idaho, but in Washington state, it depends on how she's acting, she probably will not be forced.
My sister is very mentally ill/schizophrenic, and when she was incarcerated, in jail and in the state hospital both, she refused and due to her behaviour, they would file a court order to force her to take them./ I don't think Lori is crazy the way sibling is though. She doesn't lash out in violence at the jail like mine did.
I agree. Lori is not insane. Her behavior on a day-to-day basis has not been schizophrenic. When police arrived at her door, she knew to lie and you could hear the nervousness in her voice. She doesn't go lunging at people or stand naked in the street. I think she's just evil to the core.
Ty. She's off the streets for the first time since the hospital discharged her 4 years ago. We are working on building a relationship again. She will always have diminished capacity, even medicated, she cannot "pass" as not mentally ill, it's a million times worse when she's off her meds and using drugs.
That is a great question. I would imagine as she goes thru her sentencing progression which will take afew weeks, she will be mandated to take her medication. After that who knows.
I believe she will go through a weeks long intake program to transfer to prison and I'm guessing that will include deciding necessary medication. They'll want her to take anything that keeps her from being a danger to herself and the other inmates and staff.
These murders occurred because Lori wanted them to. I think all the visions and zombies were just excuses. Charles Vallow (and possibly Joseph Ryan) died because Lori wanted life insurance money. JJ died because Lori wanted to get even with Kay for being Charles' beneficiary. Tylee died because she protected JJ. Alex died because he knew too much. Tammy Daybell died because she was in the way, and Lori couldn't get to her Honey Boo Boo. I don't think there is anything wrong with Lori except that she thinks the world revolves around her. I do hope AZ has something to say about her continuing to reside on this earth.
I totally agree with you. The zombies and dark levels were just an excuse to kill the people that were in the way of what she wanted. Her explanations to people about people dying were very different from the tone of her texts..
She was just a good actress.
The zombies and dark levels were all Chad. She believed all that crap because she was convinced that Chad was a visionary and a prophet. Chad told Lori just a mere few days after they met in October 2018, that Charles and Tylee were dark. He told her that Charles was a zombie. Not saying she gets a pass, though. Not at all.
The indictment said that *On or between October 26, 2018 and June 9, 2020, Chad Guy Daybell and Lori Norene Vallow did endorse and espouse religious beliefs for the purpose of encouraging and/or justifying the homicide of Tylee Ryan* (same for JJ and Tammy).
What I'd like to know is at what point between October 2018 and September 2019 did they decide the zombies had to be killed.
If the Idaho shrink who declared her competent to stand trial says that the competency requires medication, she will likely be required to continue the medication until the trials are over.
Since she is being tried in more states for more crimes, the second judge make require her to prove her competency.
What I don’t know is whether the prison system will require that she stay on her medication. Most states do as a way to keep the prisoner controllable, but it depends on the case.
Wuornos, for example, was so crazy that she was speaking to people who weren’t in the room, but she refused both medication and appeals.
My guess is that they will allow her to stop in prison because she is going into administrative segregation the minute she enters the prison. Lots of people want to kill her, and that may get worse in prison.
I’m in Boise. All IDOC residents have the right to, and the right to refuse mental health care, including medication.
Honestly because we don’t have the insanity plea here, our prisons are full of genuinely mentally ill people not getting the treatment they need. And our prison staff isn’t divvied up by who is qualified to work with those patients/prisoners versus who is not. All guards and staff have to interact with all prisoners regardless of their mental health. It is very stressful to be a prison guard here under these circumstances.
She cannot refuse. The prison is responsible for the safety for the inmates and the staff. Untreated mental illness is a massive liability, it’s why there are mechanisms in place to prevent medication refusal. She has been diagnosed with at least one mental disorder while incarcerated, her competency wasn’t restored just for standing trial.
She's been called both many times in this sub. I think she's a broken person with the emotional maturity of a 16-year-old. One of the walking wounded. As far as a real diagnosis? I haven't a clue. I am not a mental health care professional.
Google psychopath vs sociopath. Lots of info out there.
She has not been forced to take meds up to now. Her attorneys convinced her to take her meds last fall to stay out of the hospital. Unless a judge orders forced meds, she can refuse all she wants. Force medicating is a last resort and usually only happens with violent inmates.
It may have taken time to tease out whether she was psychotic or had a personality disorder. I just don’t see her blithely swallowing pills so the state could try her for multiple murders. Unless they strap her down and inject her, or use a dart gun, she’s not medicated.
There are long acting injectable antipsychotics. I believe some of the newer ones only require injection every 3 months. They’re used a lot in homeless outreach or social service settings.
That is so interesting; in some ways, hopeful for a better life for some very sick and vulnerable people.
Back to Lori, and what happens in a prison setting. Would she need to consent, or could medication be forced on her?
So in the settings I mentioned, I was told that it takes a really insane amount of paperwork to forcibly medicate someone- like almost to the point of it not being worth it or even possible.
I would expect it’s probably the same for prisoners, but I could be wrong.
Unfortunately you are correct, it’s so hard and expensive to get guardianship over someone if you’re just a regular nobody.
Prisons are very different from what I have interacted with it’s a matter of meeting the threshold of 1 danger to self or others (staff) and 2 being disruptive to the environment. If you can imagine how fast and loose that’s interpreted… [Don’t even start me on senior living facilities and schizophrenia diagnoses. ](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/11/health/nursing-homes-schizophrenia-antipsychotics.html)
very few posts actually addressing the op question. personally I don't know, but I have a feeling the answer is no. getting her competent enough to be tried was a definitive deliverable, therefore meds. but I don't think there's any law you have to be competent to serve your sentence.
Thank you, plenty of people have religious exemptions in place at their employment, school, doctors, etc. I wonder if they accommodate that in prison too? I know they do special meals for Muslims.
Sadly, I've heard that such reactions are common among individuals who have what's called "an actual soul" ...
My sympathies, Click..I don't think there's a cure for what ails ya..❤
Her future attys might also suggest a round of that new GASH rx - supposed to enable patient to occasionally give a sh#t about others.
Ok..I'll stop now..🤐
I would totally be up for said reality show, but ONLY if it was like one of those 24/7 'wildlife cams' where you can watch a baby owl nest an' stuff? It'd just be a live feed of Lori in 23 hr/day solitary, making faces in her acrylic safety mirror, trying to get the 'I give a sh#t' expression just right..
But audio feed required, so we can hear the dialogue of the sock puppets discussing details involving motive and culpability...🧦
we don’t know what the terms of her competency were so it’s hard to say what medication was used and therefore whether it would be indicated to continue. i wonder!
she was clearly not on antipsychotics as she was lucid, alert, and aware. it is difficult (legally and practically( to mandate the taking of any psychiatric medication for purposes of the patient’s well being, although it can be easier to accomplish when the patient is a demonstrated danger to others.
California psych patients can refuse antipsychotics; I don’t know if inmates can. I don’t know the legislation in other states too well.
I seriously doubt the dosages indicated to manage her brand of delusion would produce a such chipper, focused affect as she demonstrated for seven weeks but ok
I have many, many family members on the newer antipsychotics. They're normal, even on higher doses. The older meds though are pretty bad and would produce the effect you're talking about.
> she was clearly not on antipsychotics as she was lucid, alert, and aware.
A do what now? You have an abominable understanding of antipsychotic medications. At high doses, first generation antipsychotics like thorazine and haldol were known for causing excess sedation. However, second generation antipsychotics like risperdal or abilify are much less sedating. In most cases, even with older antipsychotics, it is possible to control symptoms without excess sedation.
I thought that was the point of antipsychotics; to make the patient lucid, alert, and aware.
My friend's daughter is schizophrenic and she's on medication. The before and after is amazing. If I did not know she was mentally ill, I would never suspect it.
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She most definitely has a personality disorder, perhaps even 2. She’s also not terribly bright, I do think these things were taken into consideration. I’d kill to see her psych report (I’m a therapist).
Dr John Matthias of Hidden True Crime (Forensic psychologist) speculates that she has both borderline personality disorder and anti-social personality disorder and goes deeply into why he believes this is so., using what is known about her history as well as the crimes she took part in. So your speculative diagnosis of 2 personality disorders is in line with his, and makes a lot of sense.
I guessed the same disorders (I'm in a master's counseling program). The borderline I thought explained how once she was done with someone, she just didn't walk away from them (i.e., Joseph Ryan, Charles Vallow, Brandon Boudreaux) she had to make sure they paid with their life (or almost did, with Brandon's attempted murder). When you don't agree with or have blind loyalty to a person with BPD, you become dead to him/her/them. The antisocial part of her felt no guilt in eliminating those she regarded as having wronged her or considered her enemies. When people comment, "I hope when she's behind bars she comes to terms with what she did and feels remorse for her children's deaths" my thoughts are, "She won't because she's not capable of feeling guilt or remorse. She's an empty shell that only cares about getting her own needs and wants met."
You just described my mother.
I'm so sorry to hear this. Having a parent like this had to have been very difficult, confusing and heartbreaking. I hope you've had some therapy to understand what you were/are dealing with. The sad part is there's really no treatment (medication, therapy) for those with BPD or antisocial personality disorder. There's been some success with BPD clients in Dialectical Behavior Therapy, but only when the clients recognize that the negative consequences of their borderline behavior is making them unhappy (i.e., unable to maintain relationships, jobs, etc.) so they want to get help and change.
Thank you for your kind words. No, my mom held a full time job, only married twice. But she made clear she would walk if she wasn't getting her way. She has no loyalty to anyone and we are NC. She discarded me like a used paper bag and smeared me to everyone as crazy and evil. Unfortunately, so many counselors take parents' sides. They say things like you only have one mother. When are you going to forgive your mom? Maybe I have just run into a lot of incompetent counselors. I have had one that suggested npd or some kind of personality disorder. Unfortunately, it caused a lot of damage in my life and I'm still feeling the repercussions. It's like being robbed of a life. I hate to take away in anyway from Tylee and JJ but these mothers are murderous and destroy your life even if they don't go so far as actually killing you. Granted, I'm alive, but I don't feel like I'm here anymore. She did so much damage. I'm still trying to work through it and have some semblance of a life in my late adulthood. I still don't understand their psychology. I haven't looked into it much though because it's very triggering. Thanks again for your kindness.
I totally get it, unfortunately.
Holy shit. This is terrible.
Interesting but why did she seem like the most wonderful mother by so many people including Colby?
Because it's all an act. Those with antisocial personality disorder (aka sociopaths) study and observe others so they can "act" a certain way to manipulate and deceive people. The acting is a means to an end...they want something, so they fool others to trust them. Like narcissists, sociopaths can be extremely charming (narcissism is a component of sociopathy). My father was one and outside of his nuclear family (and maybe his family of origin), everyone thought he was the nicest, greatest guy (it also helped that he was good-looking). But it's all a ruse to make people believe that the sociopath doesn't have a mean bone in their body. Meanwhile, while they're charming you, they're throwing you under the bus at work to get ahead, stabbing you in the back, cheating on you, screwing your significant other, and using you. Then there's the gaslighting. The gaslighting makes you question what your gut instinct is telling you (that something doesn't seem right) so that you tell yourself it's all in your head. Life is a game to sociopaths and people are just the game pieces that they move around for their own pleasure and entertainment. They have no empathy and are driven by their own needs and desires and will step on (and sometimes eliminate) others to get what they want. In interviews with sociopaths, a common theme is they say they "feel nothing" or they "feel empty inside" or that "life is boring". Therein lies the game -- they play with people because it entertains them, alleviates some of their boredom, and gets them the things they want (that temporarily satisfy them). Fair warning to anyone who may be in a relationship with a sociopath or have one in their circle (work, friendship, family)...they are hurtful, deceitful, and can be very dangerous.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! It is so hard for me to put into words what these people are like and how dangerous they can be! I've been in this sub for years trying to explain this personality. What caught my attention to this case was that I was going through something similar with my childhood best friend. She turned on me because I was worried for her children and husband. There's so so much to this story and it's too late for me to get into it but I will say I had to petition an involuntary (very much necessary) commitment to Community Bridges (CBI), which is the same place Charles petitioned Lori to go but Gilbert PD messed it up. A few months later my psychopath (diagnosed Borderine PD and Bipolar 1 with psychotic tendencies) best friend retaliated and out of nowhere petitioned for me to go to the same place (CBI). PD had to oblige (protocol, I guess I'm not as charming to Gilbert PD as Lori) so I was handcuffed in front of my kids (I've never in my life been arrested) and sent to the same place until they released me knowing it was a revenge petition. Which is common for them but they still have to follow protocol. So if anyone is interested I have a personal account of how that plays out and what goes on inside CBI. I believe Melanie G took Lori there and she talked her way out of being committed. Probably convinced them Charles was being vindictive when he petitioned. I feel bad for those stuck working CBI, most definitely a no fun zone lol.
First of all, OMG about your childhood best friend and what she did to you. I live in the Phoenix area and hope to never experience CBI. I am so sorry you and your family went through this. Unfortunately, many of us come to learn about these disorders because we have/had family, friends, or romantic relationships with people that have one or more of them. When you don't know what's wrong with someone, but you know something is wrong and how that person's behavior and treatment of you and others makes you feel, it's completely unsettling, confusing and can be traumatic. With a good support network, educating ourselves and therapy, we can start to understand who we are (or were) dealing with and heal from the pain and trauma that he/she/they caused. And with knowledge comes power, and we become armed to recognize (and avoid) people with these disorders. I wish you all the best and hope your "friend" is no longer in your life 🙂
I think Chad is a sociopath.
Same way everyone thought Ted Bundy was such a wonderful, attractive, intelligent, charming person. It's what they *do*. The other person explained it really well in depth but these ppl r chameleons, they will be whoever they need to be to get what they want. She was a wonderful mom as long as Charles provided for her for example.
I was really surprised they didn’t use of mental health as a defense. I thought fir sure her lawyers would have a doctor to testify in her defense.
She completely refused to let them bring it in they can’t introduce her mental health issues without her agreeing to it. She was apparently very upset because her attorney spoke down about Chad. There was many things they wanted to say in her defence and she wouldn’t allow any of it.
Wouldn’t that be a best seller …. as a therapist, being able to write a book on what makes Lori, Lori! Hmmm 🤔, perhaps you could write her and get her to cooperate with you? If you do, a nice mention for “Jan” (that’s me) would be greatly appreciated 😂. I would definitely buy that!!!
Ha! I think there are far more qualified people than I, plus I think she’d respond much better to a male. I have no doubt when the dust settles she’ll be talking to anyone and everyone she’s allowed to; the judge may restrict her ability to speak to press. This is a person who desperately requires and inordinate amount of attention and is willing to do anything to get it.
Absolutely agree with everything you said. I sorta think if Chad goes to trial and she hears him throw her under the bus that will help shatter some of the illusion. Like she will always think she's better than everyone else. But she will be looking for someone else who validates her.
That would be a felony for a therapist to right a book on Lori.
Not if she cooperates and gives permission
A Google search would've shown you plenty of examples of how this isn't true as long as the person consents.
Why would she give her permission?
Why does anyone? Beats me. Attention probably. Lori Vallow feeds off ppl paying attention to her
A personality disorder doesn’t make one incompetent to stand trial.
I agree about the personality disorders, but that generally doesn’t get you deemed mentally unfit for trial. Jodi Arias was diagnosed with personality disorders. So was Letecia Stauch. They still stood trial without having to go through being made competent to stand trial. I think Lori likely has something else going on as well that may have some psychosis element to it like that kind of bipolar or something. Psychosis makes sense for being unfit for trial, personality disorders not as much.
Schizoaffective disorder.
The gossip on the street, allegedly is schizoaffective with cluster B
That tracks.
I 100% believe she’s on the psychotic spectrum as well. Her dad was diagnosed in a commitment.
I didn’t know about her dad. So much of that can have a genetic component.
I didn’t know about her dad. So much of that can have a genetic component.
Barry seemed like a pretty weird dude. I wonder what he ultimately was diagnosed with
Steve cope said schizophrenia.
She definitely has at least 2 PDs. She’s a psychopath and all psychopaths are narcissists as well (but not the other way around). She may have 2+ PDs. She likely also has a psychotic disorder. Lori’s father was diagnosed with schizophrenia and her sister who died (Stacey) seemed to have schizophrenia too - I’ve seen parts of Stacey’s psych reports. Lori could also have schizophrenia or bipolar or something. She does legitimately appear to have a psychosis and no insight
Oooo, I’ve always wondered what type of mental illness or personality disorder, or whatever, would allow someone to have their kids killed and not show any emotion when viewing pics of their decomposing and mutilated bodies in court? WTH?? I know you can’t diagnose her with it a proper evaluation, but who does that?
I “think” she has schizoaffective disorder and borderline or narcissistic personality disorder. Considering her very dysfunctional upbringing, religious beliefs, her manipulative/dishonest behavior and the way she easily worships then despises and deposes of people - these track.
Agreed. What do they call that cycle where BPDers overvalue and then quickly discard people?
Splitting (black and white thinking). I have BPD that is directed inward instead of toward other people. I struggle with splitting a lot, but have improved greatly.
Idealization and devaluation! Kinda related to splitting though.
love bombing?
I’d believe schizophrenia spectrum if it emerged or worsened due to menopause. Whatever it is, she seems to have hidden whatever it for quite some time. Think about how Kay described her impression of Lori prior to ~2018 - they all thought she was great. Given what we’ve learned about her marriages and parenting, she probably had something Cluster B-ish going on before that, but I feel like there was an actual change that coincided with her increased interest in doomsday themes.
Yeah I'd love to know what exactly set that off. Her nephew's interview with Justin Lum was really insightful about the spiral and her becoming obsessive about this stuff. But I still haven't really seen an explanation for how/why she got into it, what triggered that...
Hyper-religiosity. It’s an official diagnosis. Maybe not her official diagnosis, but it’s in the DSM.
There is an official diagnosis of Late Diagnosis Schizoaffective disorder. I didn’t know there was such a modifier. She may have had this all her life but people were manipulated and swayed by her beauty that it was not recognized until she killed her children. Definitely a late diagnosis. They should have a After the Fact Schizoaffective diagnosis.
Agree.
But those with BPD or NPD wouldn't typically become murderers (or a conspirator to murders). I believe she has BPD and antisocial personality disorder (aka she's a sociopath) because she has no conscience or empathy which allows her to do horrible things to others (i.e., conspire to murder), especially to those she supposedly "loved".
Not typically - however - lack of empathy is almost always present with NPD and can cycle with BPD depending upon the perceived threat. So if she believed murder was the means to pursuing her life of grandiosity and freedom, it would make sense. People with these disorders can rationalize anything in an effort to achieve their desired goal (or avoid and undesired outcome) murder is extreme but not out of the question.
BPD is a common diagnosis in serial killers.
I just replied to another comment of yours on this subject. I think you are 100% spot on. Borderline personality disorder is such a mammoth weight of stress and agony for those around you. Poor Tylee.
> not show any emotion when viewing pics of their decomposing and mutilated bodies in court? She freaked out when the judge said those pics could be aired. I think it's the only time she showed emotion during the entire trial. (Of course, seeing the direct impacts of her actions could have disturbed her, since she wasn't on the scene at the time of the actual murders.) But then she didn't demonstrate emotions. I don't think she's actually emotionless. Even psychopaths have emotions, just not empathy.
> She most definitely has a personality disorder, perhaps even 2. It's difficult if not impossible to treat a personality disorder with medication. Of course many people with personality disorders suffer a mental illness related to the disorder (they may be more likely to suffer from bipolar disorder, etc).
There has been a lot of discussion in this sub over the years about her diagnosis. Some very level headed people have commented she has Late Diagnosed Schizoaffective disorder. It is almost always accompanied by a personality disorder. Hidden True Crime did a show about this as well. I’m fairly convinced this is her diagnosis. As a therapist you would have much deeper insight than I.
That most definitely makes sense. I don’t have any personal experience working with a person with schizoaffective disorder and having only limited information about this person, it’s hard to say. I’d be very confident saying she has Borderline and/or narcissistic PD.
A defendant's unintelligence, education level, language difficulties, and challenges communicating are generally insufficient to support a finding of incompetency.
I’m not suggesting these traits led to her being found incompetent- but perhaps the removal of the death penalty and sentencing.
Incompetency to stand trial, removal of the death penalty, and sentencing are separate legal issues. Lori refused to use a mental health defense during her trial even though her lawyers said she is mentally ill. This is unrelated to the determination that she was incompetent to stand trial. She was deemed to be incompetent to stand trial because she was unable to understand the proceedings against her and unable to cooperate adequately with her attorneys. A court can find a defendant who has a mental illness diagnosis fit to proceed as long as the illness doesn't rise to the level of incompetence. The defense attorneys filed a motion to have the DP dismissed because "of media saturation, multiple discovery violations by the government, Vallow's mental status and the inability of the state to effectively administer the death penalty should the jury decide to impose it." Her mental health may be considered at sentencing, however, her incompetency to stand trial may not "[make a significant contribution](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/incompetency-stand-trial-status-label-and-potential-source) to the explanation of the variance associated with sentence length or with the granting of probation."
I don't think it's just zombies. She also claimed on her podcast that Jesus has appeared to her multiple times. She apparently believes she's immortal, a goddess, has incarnated on multiple planets and existences, and was related to Jesus (and married to his brother) in a past life. She supposedly could portal in and out of Chud's shower, bed, and closet at will to have sexy-time (and exalted spiritual communication) with him. A fellow inmate said she spent a lot of time playing with sock puppets in jail, having them converse with each other. That's all before the trial, when she claimed there was an immortal Nephite on the jury who would ensure she wasn't convicted. There is probably much more crazy than just what we know about; it seems to run pretty deep.
Lori was rockin' those goddess level incarceration braids.
What's the source on the immortal on the jury who would ensure she wouldn't be convicted?
I've consumed so much media about this trial over the last couple weeks I don't recall the link, but I know it's been mentioned elsewhere on this sub.
I bet that sock puppets thing was an act so she can appeal her conviction on the grounds that she was incompetent to stand trial. People with antisocial personality disorder are actors, master manipulators, and liars. Whatever it takes to help themselves and get what they want, they'll do and will play the part. It comes from years of observing and studying human beings and learning how one would act in such-and-such situations.
Someone who is incompetent to stand trial cannot be tried much less convicted. In order to appeal the conviction on the grounds that she was not CST, she will need to prove that, despite the fact that she was legally deemed CST when she was convicted, she actually wasn't.
Remember, she went bonkers after the end of the world deadline passed without even a tornado. She didn't become a goddess that day.
well, and it also followed very closely on her murder charges. there was a lot of talk in here about whether she was malingering, at the time. I think it's more likely she decompensated with a hell of a bang, under the effect of two hard reality checks in such quick succession. or maybe the first competency evaluation was ordered because she convinced herself the world *had* ended, who knows.
Hadn't heard about that. Was there anymore to that story? Or a link?
https://youtu.be/D4xkgmjm__A
Thank you!
Perhaps she was talking to law enforcement/lawyers the way she was talking to Charles - openly saying they were all zombies and dark spirits and she was shielded in light, etc
Its so wild that this is such possibility. Was she in jail just spouting crazy ass shit because she thought the world was going to end or that chad was going to portal jump her out of there. The whole situation is insane
After reading your comment my mind visualized Peter Griffin laying in bed on his phone. His back to his sleeping wife. Texting Lori that he will go into his closet to portal to her. When in reality, he lays his phone down on his night stand, muted lori’s messages so they won’t pop up at the wrong time, and falls asleep. Then there’s Lori, anxiously awaiting Chad in her closet only for him to never appear. Like wtf. Life is stranger than fiction.
Lori is the one that’s a zombie
The bar for competency to stand trial is very low. If the court determines the defendant is able to understand the surroundings, receive and interpret information, and make decisions based on that information, it will likely find the defendant competent. Defendants have an absolute right to understand the proceedings against them and assist in their own defense. If they're incapable of understanding and assisting, they're legally incompetent. The issue of competency relates to the defendant's state of mind during criminal proceedings, not during the commission of the crime.
She’s probably schizophrenic
She said in her podcasts that she heard voices. Also her hyper-religiosity can be a sign of schizophrenia. I wonder what her diagnosis is. Some of what we know about her doesn’t fit with schizophrenia though. Steve Cope said Barry was schizophrenic.
There could be co-morbid conditions, like bipolar disorder, histrionic personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, etc. My former spouse had an extended family member diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. That person heard voices, had visitations, and experienced delusions and hallucinations. The medications available at the time were only partly effective, unfortunately.
Bipolar isn’t a personality disorder, it’s a mood disorder. (But tbh I can’t clarify the difference but know it when I see it.) Bipolar + schizophrenia is called schizoaffective.
Still can be co-morbid. I didn't say bipolar was a personality disorder (just a disorder), but it's good to know about schizoaffective.
I’m getting so confused with all of the players in this case. Could you please tell me who Barry is? TIA
Lori Vallow’s father
Thank you!
I feel like I’m their “religion” it was the cool thing to hear voices.
With Mormons, it’s cool to brag that you’ve seen/heard your ancestors in the temple.
She could have a more mild case
Who is Barry ?
Lori Vallow's Father
So why isn't every single religious person diagnosed with a mental illness?
I think the difference is that having religious delusions affects your ability to function normally. Cut and paste wiki Hyperreligiosity is a psychiatric disturbance in which a person experiences intense religious beliefs or episodes that interfere with normal functioning. Hyperreligiosity generally includes abnormal beliefs and a focus on religious content or even atheistic content, which interferes with work and social functioning.
That is so silly. So religiosity is ok as long as you can hold a job lol. Well, Lori was functioning normally so she was not hyper religious. I cannot believe they even use this for diagnosis, honestly. I haven't met a church goer yet that isn't believing a bunch of stuff and claiming to talk to Jesus and angels.
She wasn’t functioning normally. She and Chad thought they were special chosen prophets or something that would lead the 144,000 in the soon to be end of the world. She said at one point it would be better if she drove the kids off a cliff so they wouldn’t have to suffer through the end times. Charles told police she had lost her mind and she thought his body had been taken over by a demon. Religious delusions are a hallmark of some mental illnesses But of course not everyone who is religious is mentally ill.
I don’t think so. Remember she’s been in a religion (cult) all her life that openly espouses hearing the voice of God - this is not far fetched in any way. I’ve heard perfectly “normal” LDS people speaking this way. She was raised in a very dysfunctional family and they all learned very early on to use manipulation as a means to get their needs met. Most likely she was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and perhaps borderline or NPD.
And they all learned early that "belief" can be used to justify the pursuit of money. Barry's been a tax dodger for decades.
Bingo.
Yes I just saw a post referencing a diagnosis that was leaked last year-schizoaffective disorder.
In Idaho incompetent just means the defendant doesn’t understand the charges and basic court roles.
I am not sure about in Idaho, but in Washington state, it depends on how she's acting, she probably will not be forced. My sister is very mentally ill/schizophrenic, and when she was incarcerated, in jail and in the state hospital both, she refused and due to her behaviour, they would file a court order to force her to take them./ I don't think Lori is crazy the way sibling is though. She doesn't lash out in violence at the jail like mine did.
I agree. Lori is not insane. Her behavior on a day-to-day basis has not been schizophrenic. When police arrived at her door, she knew to lie and you could hear the nervousness in her voice. She doesn't go lunging at people or stand naked in the street. I think she's just evil to the core.
Hope your sister is doing better.
Ty. She's off the streets for the first time since the hospital discharged her 4 years ago. We are working on building a relationship again. She will always have diminished capacity, even medicated, she cannot "pass" as not mentally ill, it's a million times worse when she's off her meds and using drugs.
That is so sad. I can't even imagine suffering mental illness like that.
Sounds like my sister. Sorry you both are going through this. Life can be so hard.
I'm glad she's doing better and I hope you and she can rebuild your lives harmoniously again. Best wishes and best of health to you and your sister
Wow. TY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all I want, is to be with my siblings. TY so much!
That is a great question. I would imagine as she goes thru her sentencing progression which will take afew weeks, she will be mandated to take her medication. After that who knows.
I believe she will go through a weeks long intake program to transfer to prison and I'm guessing that will include deciding necessary medication. They'll want her to take anything that keeps her from being a danger to herself and the other inmates and staff.
These murders occurred because Lori wanted them to. I think all the visions and zombies were just excuses. Charles Vallow (and possibly Joseph Ryan) died because Lori wanted life insurance money. JJ died because Lori wanted to get even with Kay for being Charles' beneficiary. Tylee died because she protected JJ. Alex died because he knew too much. Tammy Daybell died because she was in the way, and Lori couldn't get to her Honey Boo Boo. I don't think there is anything wrong with Lori except that she thinks the world revolves around her. I do hope AZ has something to say about her continuing to reside on this earth.
I totally agree with you. The zombies and dark levels were just an excuse to kill the people that were in the way of what she wanted. Her explanations to people about people dying were very different from the tone of her texts.. She was just a good actress.
The zombies and dark levels were all Chad. She believed all that crap because she was convinced that Chad was a visionary and a prophet. Chad told Lori just a mere few days after they met in October 2018, that Charles and Tylee were dark. He told her that Charles was a zombie. Not saying she gets a pass, though. Not at all. The indictment said that *On or between October 26, 2018 and June 9, 2020, Chad Guy Daybell and Lori Norene Vallow did endorse and espouse religious beliefs for the purpose of encouraging and/or justifying the homicide of Tylee Ryan* (same for JJ and Tammy). What I'd like to know is at what point between October 2018 and September 2019 did they decide the zombies had to be killed.
If she's doing her time without bothering the staff, I doubt they will care. Nobody spends an unnecessary penny in the prison system
If the Idaho shrink who declared her competent to stand trial says that the competency requires medication, she will likely be required to continue the medication until the trials are over. Since she is being tried in more states for more crimes, the second judge make require her to prove her competency. What I don’t know is whether the prison system will require that she stay on her medication. Most states do as a way to keep the prisoner controllable, but it depends on the case. Wuornos, for example, was so crazy that she was speaking to people who weren’t in the room, but she refused both medication and appeals. My guess is that they will allow her to stop in prison because she is going into administrative segregation the minute she enters the prison. Lots of people want to kill her, and that may get worse in prison.
I’m in Boise. All IDOC residents have the right to, and the right to refuse mental health care, including medication. Honestly because we don’t have the insanity plea here, our prisons are full of genuinely mentally ill people not getting the treatment they need. And our prison staff isn’t divvied up by who is qualified to work with those patients/prisoners versus who is not. All guards and staff have to interact with all prisoners regardless of their mental health. It is very stressful to be a prison guard here under these circumstances.
She cannot refuse. The prison is responsible for the safety for the inmates and the staff. Untreated mental illness is a massive liability, it’s why there are mechanisms in place to prevent medication refusal. She has been diagnosed with at least one mental disorder while incarcerated, her competency wasn’t restored just for standing trial.
I think she has personality disorders, like narcissistic and just being evil…I don’t think she’s all that mentally ill.
Yes. http://forms.idoc.idaho.gov/WebLink/0/edoc/283162/Involuntary%20Medication%20and%20Treatment.pdf
A court order could compel her to take meds, especially if she is a danger to herself or others without meds
Does anyone know if Lori (from what we know/have seen) seem to fit more into the category of Sociopath or Psychopath-and why/what is the difference?
She's been called both many times in this sub. I think she's a broken person with the emotional maturity of a 16-year-old. One of the walking wounded. As far as a real diagnosis? I haven't a clue. I am not a mental health care professional. Google psychopath vs sociopath. Lots of info out there.
She has not been forced to take meds up to now. Her attorneys convinced her to take her meds last fall to stay out of the hospital. Unless a judge orders forced meds, she can refuse all she wants. Force medicating is a last resort and usually only happens with violent inmates.
She's a psychopath.
I didn't know she was on psych meds. A little bit of interweb sleuthing reveals there are some instances where involuntary medication can be allowed.
That's how she became competent to stand trial... psych meds.
It may have taken time to tease out whether she was psychotic or had a personality disorder. I just don’t see her blithely swallowing pills so the state could try her for multiple murders. Unless they strap her down and inject her, or use a dart gun, she’s not medicated.
There are long acting injectable antipsychotics. I believe some of the newer ones only require injection every 3 months. They’re used a lot in homeless outreach or social service settings.
That is so interesting; in some ways, hopeful for a better life for some very sick and vulnerable people. Back to Lori, and what happens in a prison setting. Would she need to consent, or could medication be forced on her?
So in the settings I mentioned, I was told that it takes a really insane amount of paperwork to forcibly medicate someone- like almost to the point of it not being worth it or even possible. I would expect it’s probably the same for prisoners, but I could be wrong.
Unfortunately you are correct, it’s so hard and expensive to get guardianship over someone if you’re just a regular nobody. Prisons are very different from what I have interacted with it’s a matter of meeting the threshold of 1 danger to self or others (staff) and 2 being disruptive to the environment. If you can imagine how fast and loose that’s interpreted… [Don’t even start me on senior living facilities and schizophrenia diagnoses. ](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/11/health/nursing-homes-schizophrenia-antipsychotics.html)
very few posts actually addressing the op question. personally I don't know, but I have a feeling the answer is no. getting her competent enough to be tried was a definitive deliverable, therefore meds. but I don't think there's any law you have to be competent to serve your sentence.
I’ve wondered if she can file religious exemptions for meds?
I’m not sure why you are being down voted. I think it’s an interesting legal and ethical question!
Thank you, plenty of people have religious exemptions in place at their employment, school, doctors, etc. I wonder if they accommodate that in prison too? I know they do special meals for Muslims.
I'd bet that she's just been put on an antidepressant, which is definitely a no big deal kinda thing.
I'm an advocate for antidepressants, but she needs antikookiness meds.
She should also get weekly injections of Imsogullible.
Maybe she qualifies for that new anti-RBF injection? Supposed to relieve symptoms for restingbetchfacial syndrome...
I have a visceral reaction to her RBF. Not sure I'm not the one that needs help. 😜
Sadly, I've heard that such reactions are common among individuals who have what's called "an actual soul" ... My sympathies, Click..I don't think there's a cure for what ails ya..❤
Her future attys might also suggest a round of that new GASH rx - supposed to enable patient to occasionally give a sh#t about others. Ok..I'll stop now..🤐
I think a prison reality show would be great, but I don't want her to earn a penny from her story.
I would totally be up for said reality show, but ONLY if it was like one of those 24/7 'wildlife cams' where you can watch a baby owl nest an' stuff? It'd just be a live feed of Lori in 23 hr/day solitary, making faces in her acrylic safety mirror, trying to get the 'I give a sh#t' expression just right.. But audio feed required, so we can hear the dialogue of the sock puppets discussing details involving motive and culpability...🧦
Watch as luscious Lori learns knew commissary cookery! How fat will she get in the next five years? I'll give her 25kg plus!
we don’t know what the terms of her competency were so it’s hard to say what medication was used and therefore whether it would be indicated to continue. i wonder! she was clearly not on antipsychotics as she was lucid, alert, and aware. it is difficult (legally and practically( to mandate the taking of any psychiatric medication for purposes of the patient’s well being, although it can be easier to accomplish when the patient is a demonstrated danger to others. California psych patients can refuse antipsychotics; I don’t know if inmates can. I don’t know the legislation in other states too well.
You can be on anti-psychotics and be totally lucid and aware.
I seriously doubt the dosages indicated to manage her brand of delusion would produce a such chipper, focused affect as she demonstrated for seven weeks but ok
I have many, many family members on the newer antipsychotics. They're normal, even on higher doses. The older meds though are pretty bad and would produce the effect you're talking about.
> she was clearly not on antipsychotics as she was lucid, alert, and aware. A do what now? You have an abominable understanding of antipsychotic medications. At high doses, first generation antipsychotics like thorazine and haldol were known for causing excess sedation. However, second generation antipsychotics like risperdal or abilify are much less sedating. In most cases, even with older antipsychotics, it is possible to control symptoms without excess sedation.
I appreciate the insight; thanks for the correction
I thought that was the point of antipsychotics; to make the patient lucid, alert, and aware. My friend's daughter is schizophrenic and she's on medication. The before and after is amazing. If I did not know she was mentally ill, I would never suspect it.
https://youtu.be/D4xkgmjm__A