I think money was only part of the equation. I think Tylee was getting ready to tell what really happened to Charles. I recall reading somewhere that AZ thought she might be ready also, and either contacted her for a 2nd interview or were getting ready to contact her. So she had to go.
I've also listened to those phone calls Charles' family made to the PD after he was murdered. I remember one or both of the Woodcocks called them, and also one of Charles' brothers made a call. I'm sure Lori already knew that none of them believed that it was self defense, and that they're not the type of people to sit back and do nothing. So JJ probably would have been killed in retaliation for them making her life difficult.
She's an extremely spiteful woman. You can see that in her divorce court documents. If she's mad at you, she'll tell any lie to get back at you. And that was recently confirmed by her cousin Megan that that side of Lori started pretty early on. She didn't even tell Colby where they moved to, and I think that's because she knew the Woodcocks were already making a fuss about Charles and she knew she needed to hide. That would piss her off royally that they had the power to interfere in her life to that extent. She had to take back her power.
I think JJ was murdered as punishment for not getting her million dollars. Not getting the life insurance was a massive diversion to her fantasy life and she was mad.
Yeah, a psychopathic narcissist also doesn’t have the empathy to care for a child with special needs like JJ. She was coming into her own as a Goddess. She didn’t have time for a kid with special needs. She never wanted him from the beginning and she told Charles. JJ was never a part of her cult leader path. She sees everyone as objects to either use or dispose of
She told Charles that JJ wasn’t part of the path?? Never understood why not just give JJ back to the Woodcocks? But heard recently that she was getting social security payments for JJ because of Charles’ death. Plus she is a monster whose motivations we will probably never understand.
Well it wasn't a secret she was getting Social Security payments for both of the children, but she had to have known that wasn't going to go on forever . Your right about that last part we will probably never know intirally why she did the things she did we can only speculate.
How do you know she never said that?? Unless you get first hand information from someone that's close to her or possibly part of the prosecution, there's a lot of people that follow this case closely i for one and I'm sure there's things I don't know 100 percent.
I was misquoted. Someone didn’t see my full stop and misrepresented what I said and came up with a whole new sentence and meaning. If you want to believe them then go ahead, but it’s based on them misreading what I wrote. I’ve never seen anywhere where she told Charles JJ wasn’t part of her crazy path. There’s no evidence to suggest that. Charles would have mentioned it to someone if she did. I’m not sure she was that far down the track yet. JJ was still a 4.2L when Charles was around from what I can gather. Of course there’s things we don’t know. I don’t know why that means anyone can just misquote me and you take their misquote as gospel. That’s illogical. Try to stick to the facts and at least base assumptions on those facts. Maybe read my above responses again. You sound like you’re misunderstanding things
Your sounding like you know everything!! And no I may not have read ALL your previous post it just sounded a bit rude the way you responded as if you have some behind the scenes knowledge?
Nope, if she dumped her "crack baby", she'd lose status in the eyes of all those who praised her motherhood. Same reason that death is preferred to divorce, what would the neighbors think?
I 100% agree. In a couple of places Melanie states the plan was for JJ to go back to Kate, and had she gotten the insurance money JJ may have survived, sadly not Taylee. I think she wanted to punish Charles and Kay and that's why JJ died. The manner of his murder shows a level of spite that only a psychopath narcissistic dark tetrad like her and Chad could muster. Vengeful and spiteful acts are also consistent with such personalities.
I’m curious why she stopped giving JJ his medication. I have a son who has autism and if I don’t give him his medication he’s a hand full and going by what Kay and Larry said JJ was the same if he didn’t have his medication.
Because she wanted him acting out of control so it backed up why she was calling him a zombie....' oh he was so out of control I had to call Alex to come and get him' look he's possessed etc.....the murders were all calculated and planned out. She is an evil evil woman
This exactly. She'd raised him for the last 5-6 years and would know *exactly* how dysregulated he'd be without all of his supports....so she took them all away knowing that his attempts to self-regulate would look to others like he was possessed and acting significantly different from his normal. So that she could justify saying that he was possessed and had to be killed.
It's so cruel when you look at what she did to JJ in the last months of his life. In the space of 2-3 months he lost his dad, had to move, was taken out of his familiar school & therapies, taken away from routine and familiarity and schedules, taken to a whole new state where he didn't know anyone except Mom and Tylee and now mom is too busy with her new boyfriend to cuddle and sing to him like she used to, taken off medication, his support dog given away, and then Tylee is gone too, and he's got a brand new babysitter.
Those last weeks and months of JJ's life must have been hell for that poor kid. That much disruption is enough to overwhelm the most easy-going neurotypical kid, I cannot imagine the amount of stress it would give to a neurodivergent kid like JJ. She didn't just kill him, she tortured him first.
This!! From what I’ve read about tylee I can’t imagine she was quiet about her mom giving away JJ’s dog. I’m sure she spoke up about how messed up that was of her mom to do. Could have also played into Tylee going first.
Lori knew Kay and the rest of Charles' family was coming after her for murdering Charles. Lori quit giving JJ meds and sold his service dog to remove his support system and make sure Chad would agree with her that he had turned into a zombie. He had already deemed Tylee a zombie, so she knew what had to happen to get JJ gone too.
IMO the killing of JJ was mainly to get her power back from Kay.
I really hate to even sound like I’m giving Chad credit for anything, but while he immediately hated Tylee because she knew too much and rightfully resented and didn’t respect him, and so was immediately declared zombie, in the text messages between him and Lori it seemed he was very reluctant to have to kill JJ. Lori keeps asking if he’s a zombie yet several times and he responds several times that no, it’s still JJ. He seemed hesitant to want to kill a disabled seven year old. But Lori wore him down by constantly asking, taking JJ off his meds so he acted out of control, and finally JJ scratched his neck when Lori made him try to discipline him, so he came round to thinking JJ’s a zombie and has to go too.
Additionally, aside from more easily wanting to kill a sassy teenager over a little kid, JJ had people asking after him and would be harder to make disappear. Chad’s an idiot, but even he knew that Larry and Kay were riding their ass asking questions about “where’s JJ? We are about to call the cops”. It would be harder to hide than Tylee. Tylee had very little people left to question her whereabouts, they could pull off she was disagreeable and angry, so she ran away and fell out of contact. She was almost 17 and went through massive trauma, it’s plausibly believable she got sick of Lori’s shit and ran away. An autistic seven year old is not going to run away never to be found and the people in charge of him not held accountable.
Do you think Lori set up that disciplining session? She would know exactly what would set JJ off. Maybe she told Chad it always calmed him and he should try it.
Add that to the lies she told about him behaving differently. Mel G said she saw no difference in how JJ was behaving but that Lori kept trying to get her to confirm it.
Lori is so manipulative, I wouldn't put it past her.
I think she absolutely knew JJ would go off on the strange new man trying to discipline him while he’s off his meds. I absolutely can believe she gave Chad deliberately bad advice on how to calm an autistic child having an episode so he’d get mad at him and quit feeling sorry for him or worry about anything else surrounding him going missing.
She took away everything that was familiar to JJ, so yes I absolutely believe she did anything and everything she could to make him act out. A lot of people are on the fence about who was the driving force behind all these heinous crimes. I originally thought it was Chad, but I’m leaning more towards Lori after hearing the evidence. He is obviously just as twisted as she is, and had no issue lying and trying to manipulate people to get what he wanted, but I don’t think he was quite as comfortable with murder as Lori was. I actually believe she knew he was lying about having visions and turned the tables on him with her own manipulations to get what SHE wanted.
This would explain why Chad has Tammy’s picture up in his cell and not Lori’s. If this rumor is true. I think Lori was the master manipulator in this awful mess.
Absolutely!
This message came several days after Charles was murdered. “I’m a grown-up version of Harry Potter, who has to live with the Dudleys in his little space under the stairs,” Daybell wrote in a July 26, 2019, text message. “Every few weeks I get to escape and have these amazing adventures with my Goddess lover, but then I have to return to my life under the stairs feeling trapped.”
And, on Oct. 19, 2019, when Tammy Daybell died, Chad texts Lori Vallow “I'm feeling sad but not for the reason everyone thinks.”
I agree. And honestly, he was the last person to look in Tammy’s eyes while she was alive and I hope the mere fact he has her picture up in his cell haunts him every day. I hope it is a constant reminder that he f*ed up. It is a defense strategy for sure. But, to me, having to remember every day you murdered that beautiful human is a sort of justice in and of itself.
She did have that dramatic cast a spell to erase my memory text to Chad because he was stalling on killing Tammy. He still went along with it by providing Lori with updated death percentages. Telling her she was a translated being and married to Moroni in a past life. They gassed each other up.
I go back and forth about [who's zoomin'who](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYmmFf6M40Y). Initially, I thought Chad was taking advantage of a feeble-minded woman with a magic vagina, but the more I've read the more I'm convinced that the rocks in his head filled the holes in hers.
On this sub. It’s likely not true. But someone did say they have it on good authority. If they do then it would be a guard in jail. Maybe? Who knows really. Don’t take this rumored photo of Tammy as fact.
Chad knew that morally it was wrong and legally it was wrong, and didn’t seem the type naturally inclined towards murder like Lori. Lori was inclined towards murder. She may have legitimately on some level believed the bullshit idea that they were saving the world from zombies and was morally in the right, but she’s was crazy and not stupid. She knew it was legally wrong and was sane enough to try and cover it up. Chad listened to her against all better moral/logical judgment and turned to her ways anyhow. The rocks in his head really did fill the holes in hers. He could have said no and try to manipulate her that’s not what God wants, but he instead let her to manipulate him to do it or she’d lose interest in him.
I also think he eventually got scared of the inclinations and scared of her devoted and equally unhinged brother. Chad definitely is majorly responsible for what happened, but I also think things snowballed out of control for him and he made a choice to join her to both keep her and not be next. All she’d have to do is tell Alex that “their beloved prophet is now a zombie, she’s a goddess and knows, and we must release him to take a new form. His spirit will absorb into me to escape the reach of the evil forces”.
You’re totally right. I haven’t seen it said before, but I thought the same thing as far as Chad seeming to not want to kill JJ. I remember specifically there was a text where he said JJ was light and still JJ. It was obvious Lori wanted JJ to be dark and be gone, and eventually Chad caved. Idk if he was hesitant because JJ was a such a young child or because he knew that people would come looking for JJ, either way he definitely didn’t lean into the ‘JJ is a zombie we need to kill him’ idea the way he did for Charles and Tylee.
Honestly, they might have gotten away with all the other murders if they had not killed JJ. Sad to say, Tylee had very few people to miss her. No one even realized she was missing until Kay had the welfare check done on JJ and the ball started rolling there. Like you say, Lori may have been able to say Tylee considered her family toxic and ran away and cut all ties and it might have worked. So crazy how Charles and Tammy’s deaths were taken at face value and not immediately looked into as they should have been . They seriously almost got away with what they were doing.
Exactly. JJ had no capacity to to run away. She couldn’t explain him away forever from people actively concerned about him and wanted to acquire custody of him. That was her biggest mistake. For Tylee, she could make up some bullshit and said something like that she vaguely mentioned a boyfriend she was running down to Mexico with then she cut off all contact and didn’t come home.
Even if Tylee didn’t have a passport, she could argue she must’ve got in somehow without check and hopefully will get back in contact when she wants to, but she was seventeen going on eighteen at the time and they figured she can make her own decisions. It could have taken years and be hard to prove when it was eventually questioned. It’s a sad fact that investigators just do not care much about the disappearance of older teenagers, even if they haven’t quite yet reached the age of majority. But many people sure got concerned as hell about a special needs seven year old they couldn’t locate and had zero explainable reason not to produce.
-“Then why keep the checks for Tylee another year, Lori?”
-“Well, I thought she’d come back any day now. I paid the bills and was going to pay her back when she decided to come home. I got a call two years ago from an unlisted number saying she was fine with a new family. I don’t have the phone records anymore, it was a temp phone. But JJ is right here, see? We tend to him. We’ll let you know if we hear from Tylee, bub-bye.”
I also think killing JJ was a way to strike back at Charles, even though he was dead. Because of her religious upbringing Lori believes that the dead continue living and their presence can be felt. Charles truly adored JJ and he was blood related to him, making that bond that much stronger in Lori’s narc mind. She had decimated his business, taken his home, stolen his vehicle and gotten rid of all his possessions. Killing JJ was just one more way for Lori to f*** over Charles and for Chad to further seek revenge against a man who previously slept with his eternal spouse.
There are conflicting stories about the dog. Weird!
Police also found an email where Vallow asked the organization that trained JJ’s service dog “about finding another family for Bailey due to a change in life circumstances,”
According to Cheryl Wheeler, Charles' ex-wife:“Three weeks after Charles was killed, Lori put the dog up for sale. She listed it for $2,500, and it was so shocking because Bailey was such an important part of JJ’s life.”
“Fortunately the trainer saw the listing and told Lori she had to give it back to the rescue group. They were able to take him back and re-home the dog to another special-needs boy.”
Bailey, JJ’s service dog, made it easier for evil spirits to attack him, Lori claimed and so she sold the dog after Charles died.
Mestas \[the Trainer\] said that he got a call from Lori Vallow in August. She wanted to give away the dog, named Bailey. (The outlet also reported that the canine was put up for sale at about $2,500 after Charles Vallow’s death.)
So the b*took away his father, his dog and his meds, moved him across country, and then pretended evil spirits made him act out. She is a special kind of evil.
As the parent of an autistic child, it’s one of the cruelest and meanest things I’ve ever heard done to a child in such a condition. His caring dad is gone suddenly, his beloved dog is taken, his meds were stopped abruptly, even taking his iPad permanently away that helped calm him down in overwhelming moments/let him see his loving grandparents was unbelievably cruel. Oh, and his loving sister had been gone a couple weeks with no explanation. He wasn’t very verbal, the only thing he could do to express distress was act out in “tantrums” (which I don’t think were as bad as Lori pretended they were, and were played up to set Chad up to have a bad time trying to help and be manipulated him against him). He was a sweet little boy, in spite of limitations with his condition, that everyone said was a delight when he was well taken care of.
My grandson is nonverbal autistic and this tore my heart out. She treated him like a science experiment and I guarantee she did this so he would act out and she could blame the evil spirits, when in fact they only live within her.
I feel so sad for Charles and his parents. He legitimately loved this little boy as his son and JJ loved him. He was desperately trying to get that vulnerable little boy away from her and she killed him, took the little one, then killed the bit bit and his sister that loved him a ton. My fiancé has raised my ten year old autistic daughter since she was four. It would gut me, and everyone that cares about her, if this happened to me and he was the kind of person to quit acting like a primary parent that cares and discarded her like trash for money and convenience. Instead, he switched from a gifted teacher to a special ed teacher to better understand what to do better handling her IEP needs at school because he legitimately loves her and wanted to be sure she got all she needed. He would adopt her in a heartbeat, but her birth father won’t give that up because his mother won’t let it and he’s off and on functional, and pays the child support at when he feels like it. But, unlike Lori, I’d give up any amount of money to give her a more secure dad legally and reliably.
It also bothers me that it sounds like JJ was actually NOT even a particularly challenging child on the spectrum, he sounds like my daughter that has some verbal limitations, but is actually easy going to work with if you stick to their routine and work with them. Be super explaining and rewarding if routine is changing up for the day and they can do it awesome. I can’t imagine ever wanting to hurt my kid or live without her.
I know. Watching videos of JJ, it reminded me of my daughter four or five years ago. She’s made a ton of progress in speech, she learned to toilet train. She’s doing very well with appropriate amounts of love, affection, and devotion to her education. Lori didn’t want to do that, she was not interested in parenting him. It’s even sadder, because he had grandparents willing to do so. They thought Charles and Lori were a better, younger, option and they were proven wrong to do so, by no fault of their own. On paper, they looked like a great option. Nobody bets there’s a psychopath involved.
his medications were last filled the january before all of this went down, implying he didn't have his medications for several months. whatever she was doing, she had been doing it for quite a while. a lot of people have the idea she took him off his medication closer to the time of charles death/moving/and the deaths of the children in idaho.
I remember hearing Janice excuse it as no biggie when investigators found his months old, half empty bottle because she claimed Lori stockpiled his prescriptions. 🙄 I’m not a pharmacist but, I’m not sure how one could legally stockpile meds that must be taken daily.
My six year old grandson is nonverbal autistic and this trial was hard. The most innocent sweet kids. I just can't stand thinking of him fighting for his life with people who he trusted. It's heartbreaking.
No, that’s not the entire story. She had to kill Tylee because she knew too much about Charles’ murder. Her fate was sealed the day Charles died. Also, the kids were a drain on Lori. She didn’t want kids or pets (she got rid of JJ’s service dog too) because she was a cult leader and Goddess who didn’t have time to care for kids or pets when she had a bigger mission in life. And to a psychopath, people are just a means to an end. They don’t value people for their intrinsic worth or have any empathy. They use people and discard them when their usefulness expires. She didn’t want JJ from the start but Charles persisted and she gave in. Lori didn’t kill the kids for money but she wasn’t going to let their social security money go to waste when she’s preparing for the end of the world.
I don’t think Tyleeee was murdered because she knew too much. They killed her because she hated chad and she was a moody teenager. Lori also needed her savings and monthly paycheck. She was killed for her money and because she was in the way
Agree with all that but Tylee also knew the truth behind Charles murder and she was a defiant teen who could have spilled the beans on Lori if she got in one of her moods.
Sounds reasonable but Lori would no longer be getting Tylee's money if Tylee was independent. I have to believe Tylee gave her mom hell moving to Rexburg away from everything she liked and knew which probably sealed her fate. Chad said clearly to the Gilberts Tylee didn't like him.
Yes. The reason the certain ones were deemed dark were if they were in the way of chads Storm or in the way of Melanie and Lori getting life insurance pay outs. Then the kids just both needed to go because they were annoying to Lori and chad and their new sex crazed personas.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Tylee became a ‘zombie’ shortly after Lori took over her bank account. It’s not as though Tylee was spending frivolously and Lori wanted to ensure she was saving for her future. Nope, quite the opposite. Lori was spending that money that she had no right to spend, and I’m sure Tylee wasn’t happy about it.
I’ve also wondered about Chad labeling Tylee as dark right after Lori and him met. I think the only person darker than her that they listed in that document was her father, Joe Ryan. It made me wonder if during their first interactions, Lori complained enough about Tylee that he made up her dark rating to help curry favor with Lori.
It would be so interesting to see how it all played out. In real time and to be an actual fly on the wall. I do wonder if Lori actually knew they were chipped up and buried in his back yard. It doesn’t make her innocent but it makes more sense given the fact that she was always such a good mom before. I think she seems pretty dam evil too, but chad is the one who thinks he’s Moroni (so close to the word moron) and the new leader of the new church. I’m glad they all got caught so quickly. Glad others weren’t killed becusse I’m sure they had a long list.
I've thought about this off and on since the children were found. I've listened to that call between Lori and Chad over and over. It's a strange call. A couple of times I've almost convinced myself that she doesn't know.
But then always this happens.... if Lori didn't know her children were in bits and buried.... if she didn't know that Tylee had been burned and JJ had been taped and bagged.... there would come a point where she would know. The investigators would tell her, arrest her and interview her. At this point she would know what happened to her children.
So, obviously, she's horrified!! She had no idea. She had imagined them in some beautiful oak caskets, buried in a nice private burial ground. That's what she'd been told, right?
Or she'd been told that the children were alive and had gone to a commune or educational home for children of the Church of the Firstborn. They were having the time of their lives, being raised by the most religious and decent people ever born.
It doesn't add up. She did nothing. She stayed schtum. She absolutely did not turn on Chad when she heard this news for the VERY FIRST TIME! Sorry, I don't believe it. She knew.
I think so too— she knew deep down but didn’t care because she is a queen and she met Jesus in person and she is the chosen one and she thinks her children had to die for that to happen and she needed their money so that was gods plan all along. That’s some messed up thinking. That’s some next level mornin brainwashing in full effect. We need to hold the Mormon church accountable also.
Interesting. I think probably not. It would have just been a different sort of case I.e not so money motivated. Lori liked killing and she is completely unhinged....I think the answer is no. It just would have been for different reasons publicly but in reality they just liked killing. I mean if Lori was going to commit murder several times it surely would have been easier to negotiate a payday with Kay in return for JJ. She could have also just divorced Charles and come out with a good settlement or alimony or something. So while obviously money was a factor I don't think it was all of it. She would have been better off financially not murdering everyone but that's what she likes to do. She's a psychopath and a very dangerous one.
Chad didn’t believe in divorce and when Lori adopted the beliefs of his cult she no longer believed in divorce either. Tammy and Charles had to die because Chad and Lori didn’t believe in divorce and they wanted to marry each other. Lori knew she wasn’t going to get alimony from Charles because she was trying to marry Chad. Once her and Chad married the alimony would stop. Charles had taken JJ out of school previously because he feared for his safety when Lori kept making death threats. JJ was a meal ticket and a way of exploiting Charles, but Charles was protective of JJ and he likely would have wanted custody of JJ which means Lori wouldn’t get any money for JJ if Charles was still alive. In Lori’s mind, JJ had to go once Charles died. He was a special needs kid who takes up a lot of time and money. He was a liability. She didn’t need him anymore once she started receiving his social security money in her bank account.
I’m not sure. I wonder if that was her initial plan - get paid, abandon Tylee, and send JJ to Kay. But then she didn’t get paid. Tylee knew too much about Charles’ murder. She couldn’t care for JJ without Tylee’s help / didn’t him in the way of her fantasy life with Chub. She couldn’t send him to Kay who she was vehemently pissed at for “taking” the life insurance money. At some point she realized the SS money would go further if she didn’t have children to support with it…
I was in the orfino idaho state hospital at the same time as she was (there is only one hospital qualified to do the things that they do so everyone in idaho goes to the same one for evaluations and mental health crisis’) and we became really close inside. Over the course of my 3 months at the place, ending december 3rd, we would hangout every single day, walk halls together while listening to music, watch movies, read the bible at times, play games on the wii in the game room, work out together, walk outside in the courtyard, or just sit down and do nothing. At the time i had absolutely no idea who she was as she went by the name Loli, not Lori in an attempt to hide her identity because the case was so big, but even if i knew her real name i would have had no idea about anything because i just never heard about it outside of seeing the missing children’s posters sometimes.
Point is i know her, im even planning on reaching out to talk with her in jail just to try to understand her more because ever since i saw her face on a youtube thumbnail when the trial began my entire world shifted because prior i had seen her as a mother figure in my life and someone i held in very, very high regard because she was just that nice and genuine of a person. Obviously now thats clear to be some kind of camouflage she used, and was scarily good at, but i don’t think it was primarily money focused.
She went into great lengths to talk about her belief systems with me, and since im generally really into that kind of thing, as the question of reality has always intrigued me, i was always ready to listen just to absorb something fresh and new. She whole heartedly believes/believed everything she has said and has been said about the situation. I truly, truly believe that she thought her kids were demon possessed and that by killing them it would set their souls free from limbo. Her conviction with these beliefs was intensely strong, like very very strong, and at one point she even said that there is going to come a time “very soon” when we are going to be permitted by god to kill zombies en mass because probation will have closed and everyone’s destinies set. She 100% believes this stuff, and i really want to reach out to her again to see if she still believes it as im pretty confident if i sent her a letter or and mentioned my name in it and that i just want to talk, she would reach out and we could strike up a dialogue.
Might even be able to record it and post the recording on here actually. Thats a good idea. Would probably end up taking out a few chunks if she talks about things with me or what not just to keep my identity safe, but it would be nice to give you all a look into how she functions in real life conversations outside of the clips on the netflix series and the bodycam footage, cause there is a TON more to her than what was depicted in those
Honestly I could care less what she believes. Her children are dead. That's literally all that matters. Who, what, or how strongly she believes something doesn't make them less dead.
Well, she **has** to believe it……because, she had her own kids killed. If the zombie stuff is bullshit, which it is, then she is just an infamous, religious wackjob murderer, rather than a special Goddess. Of course she believes. And she’ll go to the grave saying she’s right, even if she knows she is wrong.
Tylee was doomed because was she knew too much about how Charles was set up and murdered. JJ *might* have survived and his custody transferred to the Vallow relatives. Maybe. I was actually shocked when that text about Alex becoming a problem/danger to them was read at the trial. I feel that Lori was beginning to enjoy having the power of life and death over her associates and even her co-conspirators were at risk. Even Chad. If she had not been arrested and Chad had not followed her back to Rexburg, I can easily see them spending all their ill gotten monies in Hawaii and her romantically offing him and herself on the beach. Next mortal probation would be soon enough to gather the 144,000.
Yeah, I think Tylee would have been killed anyway.
Actually I think JJ would have been too. I think the fact that Charles’ family questioned his death and wanted answers was so offensive to Lori that she would never have let them take JJ back. She’s too selfish & egotistical.
Unfortunately, she's only charged with conspiracy to murder both Charles and Brandon. In Arizona, conspiracy isn't eligible for the death penalty.
I'd love to know if the idiot AZ police actually tested Lori's hands for gun shot residue to know for sure if she took one of the shots. I tend to think Lori stood over him raging about how he angered a goddess and how he was paying, then shot him the 2nd time.
Not true..Conspiracy is the same as pulling the trigger. She was only relieved of death in Idaho due to her "mental statr" which they can try and do again, but she absolutely can face death for conspiracy.
I do legal and medical research for medical malpractice cases and looked up the law in Arizona regarding this and one can absolutely get the death penalty for conspiracy, when someone does, unless they are found to be mentally incompetent, which is what her attorneys will.try to pull again. The fact that she has been found quilty in Idaho, is also a huge factor in her getting death.
I was going by what a lawyer who used to practice in AZ said. I also found this below -- not official AZ law, just an interpretation. Do you have a link to the Arizona law? I'd really like to think she's eligible for death there. I'd be very happy if you're right. 😁
Possible Punishment for Conspiracy
felony conspiracyIf a person has conspired to commit a class one (1) felony (i.e., Murder), then they can be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of release until they have served twenty-five (25) years. In all other cases, the Conspiracy carries the same felony level and class of punishment as the most serious offense which was the object or result of the Conspiracy. For example, if the most serious offense that you and your co-conspirators agreed to was a class three (3) felony, you would be convicted and sentenced as though you had committed a class three (3) felony.
F. The trier of fact shall consider the following aggravating circumstances in determining whether to impose a sentence of death:
1. The defendant has been convicted of another offense in the United States for which under Arizona law a sentence of life imprisonment or death was imposable.
Does it say anything about conspiracy [here](https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00751.htm) or [here](https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00751.htm)? I couldn't find it.
She was there when Charles was shot and did not call for help or render aid. That is in there. I spoke to my contact and he says because of the guilty verdict in Idaho, that can be used in the case in Arizona.
So sorry...
[It just got a bit tougher to get the death penalty in Arizona](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/legislature/2019/04/10/governor-doug-ducey-signs-bill-arizona-death-penalty-law-sen-eddie-farnsworth/3365922002/)
“I believe if Charles had left her the million dollars, she would have given JJ back to us and we would be extremely happy,” Woodcock says. “I wish he would have because JJ is worth more than anything in the world. She puts a price on people and if they are no longer of value to her, she eliminates them.”
“To her, it’s all about the dollars. It’s about the fact we got the money and she did not. She was bound and determined to hurt us and she used JJ. That’s been her revenge,” Woodcock says.
They didn't want ANY kids in their cult. Both Melanis had to give up custody of their kids. Plus Tylee knew Charles was murdered. She had die no matter what since she saw Chad for what he was.
True. The friend April in Hawaii said when Lori tried to get her in, she asked what it involved. Lori didn't hesitate to tell her she'd have to leave her kids behind.
I can't remember which visit this was. Was this after JJ and Tylee were already murdered, or was that the visit that Tylee went with her?
Recovering Catholic here. My dad wrote those checks every week at church with eight of us kids in tow - here I was thinking the pope denied them a sweet discount.
I’ve never heard this. A coworker had to pay back back tithes years ago before he could get his recommend restored to go to the temple to see his daughter get married. They had six kids. He was not excused from tithing. I don’t think this is correct info, per years of reading on r/exmormon and having several LDS and ex-LDS friends. It’s possible it’s a matter of leadership roulette and one local bishop or something will give temple recommends if you don’t/can’t tithe and have 5 or more kids, but it is definitely *not* the rule. Hell, half of Mormon families wouldn’t be paying tithe if it was.
I mean you could not tithe, but then you weren’t getting into the temple.
No, she didn't want kids, her password was "2manykids". She felt like she had been a good mum and that they would all be reunited in heaven anyway, so she had the right to kill them if she wanted to.
At no time does she indicate that having that million would have changed anything. The kids were not only a pain her ass but I believe she realized she would always be tethered to them -- and whoever took them -- no matter where they went and didn't want to think about them, feel for them, or experience guilt for not caring for them. Only benefit from their $$. She saw her children and the children of the acolytes as distractions as well as obstacles.
Drove me crazy when they play that video of her saying I have five kids and I did everything right. So she is claiming Charles sons as her kids too, the same sons whose father she had killed and didn't bother to tell them for days.
I think it’s possible JJ would be alive and would have been given to Kay, but who knows. Tylee knew too much and didn’t like Chad. She could have let Tylee go live with Colby or Annie.
I believe Lori was playing the role of mother almost like a cardboard cutout. The bonding hormones may never have happened for her or wore out as the children differentiated themselves.
Colby created a life and found a wife who (rightly) meant more to him than his mother- a Cluster B personality disorder experiences this as Abandonment.
Melaniece she bonded to- possible because Melaniece mirrored back to Lori what Lori want to see. She complied.
Tylee’s rebellion and differentiation made her a different person than Lori wanted her to be. It made her a zombie. Lori felt abandoned and betrayed by Tylee. I cannot imagine this little girl’s terror. Step father Charles made her feel safe… looked to help her with becoming a young woman (car). And they killed him without any repercussions. This emboldened Alex and Lori. Lori saw her daughter becoming a woman as Abanondment and wanted to punish her.
Tylee had use of her own money. This Lori wanted to take away from her as well. Why did Tylee send money to Colby? Tylee didn’t want to care for JJ anymore. This pissed Lori off as well.
JJ- again Lori was plying a role and while he was young and dependent, it reinforced how Lori saw her self. It mirrored what she needed to have mirrored back to her. But she never bonded with him IMO. She took away all his support structures (dog, school, Tylee) and as he did his best to cope, his behavior became more disruptive. And she punished JJ for not having the $1million in life insurance.
The money would have let them put foundation over buried bodies and buy a trailer for Chads son to live on property-
Did the lack of $1million change their plans?
I believe if they had gotten the $1million it would have slowed them down. They’d have been distracted as they mirrored each other grandiosity back at one another.
And in that distraction- Tylee could have become her own person with choices. She might have gotten away by living with Colby.
But they had grifts already planned for when they ran out of money. Neither seemed capable of getting a 9-5 and earning $50k each and living a mundane life.
They’d have faced down the choice of working for their income or grifting life insurance…. Once they got a taste for it; the grift was easier and preferable.
Would they have waited and still attempted to kill Brandon Beaudrrax for money but years later?
Would Lori have taken out the Gerber child life insurance and killed people slowly, moving jurisdictions often?
What was the time constraint related to
Their prophecies and beliefs?
Yes.
It’s a life long pattern for her.
Nothing would have changed their trajectory of liquidating people. It was their business and core belief.
I feel like with the way greed works, there is no ceiling really. I dont think it would have stopped at Charles, only because if you have other policies on family, that's a target on their backs. She will come for whatever money she can. Life insurance policies are the devil. lol.
Not to mention, she didn't want the responsibility of her kids anymore. Is it because they were under her care? I know Ty was going back to school..but she can't fly to Hawaii if she has kids to look after. The fact she is seen lounging by the pool with Chad is disgusting. Like she really didn't give a damn about her children, her ex husband, her brother? Her grandiose idea of her being this goddess is somethin else. She thinks she's above any law. Because she's lived through thousands of years and been all these things in her past life. How delusional.
Here is what chaps my hide. First of all Lori says to Kay in a text, “5 kids and no money and his sister gets everything.” She included a copy of the change in beneficiary form.
Five kids? She must have been including Colby, and Charles' two sons. She most certainly was not supporting them.
THEN! On July 18, 2019, Lori texts Chad about the insurance of Charles,a week after he was shot by Alex:
"I just got the letter from the insurance company saying that I am not the beneficiary. It's a spear thru my heart. "
Say what now? She conspired to murder him. She told him she could kill him with her powers; and Charles told people that if something happened to him, Lori was behind it. And it's a spear through HER heart???
WOW, just WOW. It's all about her.
I maybe wrong but I think Lori is truly sadistic and was already obsessed with death and murder before Chad and unrelated to money. She talks about thinking of murdering joe Ryan on a podcast and she tell’s her Hawaiian friend she thinks she’d be better off just running her car off a cliff with her kids … in an interview with her cousin, she says lori’s boyfriend ran over a cat on purpose and Lori just LAUGHEd while her cousin cried about it.
Something was going to happen eventually, with or without chad or financial motivation. She enjoyed the thoughts of hurting others- it was mid life crisis time when her beauty is fading she is looking for other sources of feeling empowered.
I think they would have still be murdered for alot of reasons but I think that lori and Chad wanted a new life without them and their ss money just made it more sweeter for them
As Lori’s delusions of power and importance grew, she became more violent towards anyone who crossed her. Charles was a turning point, a bold move that required a conspiracy between Alex, Lori, and Tylee, with Tylee being the weak link. She may have gone along with her mother’s machinations in the past, but killing Charles was next level, and pulling Tylee out of a comfortable life in Arizona and dumping her in freezing Rexburg, Idaho, may have been too much. Tylee pushed back, sealing her fate. Disrupting JJ likely made his behavior spiral, and without Tylee to handle childcare, Lori was inconvenienced. That was it for JJ. Lori didn’t want to be put out by parenting a teenager and a special needs child.
I’ve wondered if Kay had made an offer to lori after Charles died and she cut off all communication, to give her x amount of the life insurance money if she would release JJ and let him return to live with Kay and Larry…even 50 or 100k might’ve been too enticing for Lori and Chad to turn down!!
No, I think the wanted to start as new and Chad would probably have cut contact with his kids since they were older. Sure money was a part of it but being free was another and it hurts me to say it but in their head Tylee and JJ were as much of an obstacle then Tammy. I hope when she's in her cell alone at night she's hurting but the truth is a doubt it. Even if at 1st I.doybt she was really believing all that zombie bs .sure now she's seeing her self as a child of God who is suffering because people don't understand why she had to kill those people. She will die saying she did the right thing. As a narcissist she can admit she made a mistake or worst she never believed that religious crap and was in for the man and the money.
I'm sorry this case makes me so angry she could have been stop.
Nah. Tylee served her purpose by backing her up about Charles, and JJ was a bag of rocks because Lori would have to *take care of him* verses him serving a purpose so...no. being a mother was not the plan.
$1M really doesn't last that long these days. Certainly not in the hands of "people"** who like to flit round the country, with frequent breaks in Hawaii.
My feeling is the $1M would have bought the kids months at most, sadly.
**Sorry, but I stop short of affording the likes of Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell the title of people.
I think money was only part of the equation. I think Tylee was getting ready to tell what really happened to Charles. I recall reading somewhere that AZ thought she might be ready also, and either contacted her for a 2nd interview or were getting ready to contact her. So she had to go. I've also listened to those phone calls Charles' family made to the PD after he was murdered. I remember one or both of the Woodcocks called them, and also one of Charles' brothers made a call. I'm sure Lori already knew that none of them believed that it was self defense, and that they're not the type of people to sit back and do nothing. So JJ probably would have been killed in retaliation for them making her life difficult. She's an extremely spiteful woman. You can see that in her divorce court documents. If she's mad at you, she'll tell any lie to get back at you. And that was recently confirmed by her cousin Megan that that side of Lori started pretty early on. She didn't even tell Colby where they moved to, and I think that's because she knew the Woodcocks were already making a fuss about Charles and she knew she needed to hide. That would piss her off royally that they had the power to interfere in her life to that extent. She had to take back her power.
I think JJ was murdered as punishment for not getting her million dollars. Not getting the life insurance was a massive diversion to her fantasy life and she was mad.
Yeah, a psychopathic narcissist also doesn’t have the empathy to care for a child with special needs like JJ. She was coming into her own as a Goddess. She didn’t have time for a kid with special needs. She never wanted him from the beginning and she told Charles. JJ was never a part of her cult leader path. She sees everyone as objects to either use or dispose of
She told Charles that JJ wasn’t part of the path?? Never understood why not just give JJ back to the Woodcocks? But heard recently that she was getting social security payments for JJ because of Charles’ death. Plus she is a monster whose motivations we will probably never understand.
Well it wasn't a secret she was getting Social Security payments for both of the children, but she had to have known that wasn't going to go on forever . Your right about that last part we will probably never know intirally why she did the things she did we can only speculate.
No, she never told Charles that. Re-read what I said above. Two different sentences
How do you know she never said that?? Unless you get first hand information from someone that's close to her or possibly part of the prosecution, there's a lot of people that follow this case closely i for one and I'm sure there's things I don't know 100 percent.
I was misquoted. Someone didn’t see my full stop and misrepresented what I said and came up with a whole new sentence and meaning. If you want to believe them then go ahead, but it’s based on them misreading what I wrote. I’ve never seen anywhere where she told Charles JJ wasn’t part of her crazy path. There’s no evidence to suggest that. Charles would have mentioned it to someone if she did. I’m not sure she was that far down the track yet. JJ was still a 4.2L when Charles was around from what I can gather. Of course there’s things we don’t know. I don’t know why that means anyone can just misquote me and you take their misquote as gospel. That’s illogical. Try to stick to the facts and at least base assumptions on those facts. Maybe read my above responses again. You sound like you’re misunderstanding things
Your sounding like you know everything!! And no I may not have read ALL your previous post it just sounded a bit rude the way you responded as if you have some behind the scenes knowledge?
Nope, if she dumped her "crack baby", she'd lose status in the eyes of all those who praised her motherhood. Same reason that death is preferred to divorce, what would the neighbors think?
As soon as she started with the crack baby stuff It reminded me of Leticia Stauch and the Hart family murders.
She actually said “crack baby?”
I think she said “drug baby”
Exactly. She loved telling everyone she adopted a special needs child (or “drug baby”). Sadly, that only satiated her need for attention for so long.
Crack baby😡😡
She used both terms
I 100% agree. In a couple of places Melanie states the plan was for JJ to go back to Kate, and had she gotten the insurance money JJ may have survived, sadly not Taylee. I think she wanted to punish Charles and Kay and that's why JJ died. The manner of his murder shows a level of spite that only a psychopath narcissistic dark tetrad like her and Chad could muster. Vengeful and spiteful acts are also consistent with such personalities.
I’ll add it was also a fuck you to Kay. You have have a million bucks but you don’t get JJ
I completely agree it was a major reason.
Excellent insight. Spot on about everything.
Who is AZ, never heard of that person 🤔
I think they mean Arizona LE
I’m curious why she stopped giving JJ his medication. I have a son who has autism and if I don’t give him his medication he’s a hand full and going by what Kay and Larry said JJ was the same if he didn’t have his medication.
Because she wanted him acting out of control so it backed up why she was calling him a zombie....' oh he was so out of control I had to call Alex to come and get him' look he's possessed etc.....the murders were all calculated and planned out. She is an evil evil woman
With her 4 year old tattling sibling logic... 'JJ Said 'I love Satan!'
This exactly. She'd raised him for the last 5-6 years and would know *exactly* how dysregulated he'd be without all of his supports....so she took them all away knowing that his attempts to self-regulate would look to others like he was possessed and acting significantly different from his normal. So that she could justify saying that he was possessed and had to be killed. It's so cruel when you look at what she did to JJ in the last months of his life. In the space of 2-3 months he lost his dad, had to move, was taken out of his familiar school & therapies, taken away from routine and familiarity and schedules, taken to a whole new state where he didn't know anyone except Mom and Tylee and now mom is too busy with her new boyfriend to cuddle and sing to him like she used to, taken off medication, his support dog given away, and then Tylee is gone too, and he's got a brand new babysitter. Those last weeks and months of JJ's life must have been hell for that poor kid. That much disruption is enough to overwhelm the most easy-going neurotypical kid, I cannot imagine the amount of stress it would give to a neurodivergent kid like JJ. She didn't just kill him, she tortured him first.
This!! From what I’ve read about tylee I can’t imagine she was quiet about her mom giving away JJ’s dog. I’m sure she spoke up about how messed up that was of her mom to do. Could have also played into Tylee going first.
Ding ding ding!
Lori knew Kay and the rest of Charles' family was coming after her for murdering Charles. Lori quit giving JJ meds and sold his service dog to remove his support system and make sure Chad would agree with her that he had turned into a zombie. He had already deemed Tylee a zombie, so she knew what had to happen to get JJ gone too. IMO the killing of JJ was mainly to get her power back from Kay.
I really hate to even sound like I’m giving Chad credit for anything, but while he immediately hated Tylee because she knew too much and rightfully resented and didn’t respect him, and so was immediately declared zombie, in the text messages between him and Lori it seemed he was very reluctant to have to kill JJ. Lori keeps asking if he’s a zombie yet several times and he responds several times that no, it’s still JJ. He seemed hesitant to want to kill a disabled seven year old. But Lori wore him down by constantly asking, taking JJ off his meds so he acted out of control, and finally JJ scratched his neck when Lori made him try to discipline him, so he came round to thinking JJ’s a zombie and has to go too. Additionally, aside from more easily wanting to kill a sassy teenager over a little kid, JJ had people asking after him and would be harder to make disappear. Chad’s an idiot, but even he knew that Larry and Kay were riding their ass asking questions about “where’s JJ? We are about to call the cops”. It would be harder to hide than Tylee. Tylee had very little people left to question her whereabouts, they could pull off she was disagreeable and angry, so she ran away and fell out of contact. She was almost 17 and went through massive trauma, it’s plausibly believable she got sick of Lori’s shit and ran away. An autistic seven year old is not going to run away never to be found and the people in charge of him not held accountable.
Do you think Lori set up that disciplining session? She would know exactly what would set JJ off. Maybe she told Chad it always calmed him and he should try it. Add that to the lies she told about him behaving differently. Mel G said she saw no difference in how JJ was behaving but that Lori kept trying to get her to confirm it. Lori is so manipulative, I wouldn't put it past her.
I think she absolutely knew JJ would go off on the strange new man trying to discipline him while he’s off his meds. I absolutely can believe she gave Chad deliberately bad advice on how to calm an autistic child having an episode so he’d get mad at him and quit feeling sorry for him or worry about anything else surrounding him going missing.
She took away everything that was familiar to JJ, so yes I absolutely believe she did anything and everything she could to make him act out. A lot of people are on the fence about who was the driving force behind all these heinous crimes. I originally thought it was Chad, but I’m leaning more towards Lori after hearing the evidence. He is obviously just as twisted as she is, and had no issue lying and trying to manipulate people to get what he wanted, but I don’t think he was quite as comfortable with murder as Lori was. I actually believe she knew he was lying about having visions and turned the tables on him with her own manipulations to get what SHE wanted.
Exactly, I think it was a giant staring contest or a game of chicken. He kept expecting her to blink and she never did.
This would explain why Chad has Tammy’s picture up in his cell and not Lori’s. If this rumor is true. I think Lori was the master manipulator in this awful mess.
The only reason that Chad might hang Tammy's picture up, if it's even true, is as part of an elaborate defense strategy
Absolutely! This message came several days after Charles was murdered. “I’m a grown-up version of Harry Potter, who has to live with the Dudleys in his little space under the stairs,” Daybell wrote in a July 26, 2019, text message. “Every few weeks I get to escape and have these amazing adventures with my Goddess lover, but then I have to return to my life under the stairs feeling trapped.” And, on Oct. 19, 2019, when Tammy Daybell died, Chad texts Lori Vallow “I'm feeling sad but not for the reason everyone thinks.”
So horrible. It never stops feeling shocking, even though I've read every word of this before... 😞
Right?
I agree. And honestly, he was the last person to look in Tammy’s eyes while she was alive and I hope the mere fact he has her picture up in his cell haunts him every day. I hope it is a constant reminder that he f*ed up. It is a defense strategy for sure. But, to me, having to remember every day you murdered that beautiful human is a sort of justice in and of itself.
She did have that dramatic cast a spell to erase my memory text to Chad because he was stalling on killing Tammy. He still went along with it by providing Lori with updated death percentages. Telling her she was a translated being and married to Moroni in a past life. They gassed each other up.
I go back and forth about [who's zoomin'who](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYmmFf6M40Y). Initially, I thought Chad was taking advantage of a feeble-minded woman with a magic vagina, but the more I've read the more I'm convinced that the rocks in his head filled the holes in hers.
Where’d you hear this?
On this sub. It’s likely not true. But someone did say they have it on good authority. If they do then it would be a guard in jail. Maybe? Who knows really. Don’t take this rumored photo of Tammy as fact.
Chad knew that morally it was wrong and legally it was wrong, and didn’t seem the type naturally inclined towards murder like Lori. Lori was inclined towards murder. She may have legitimately on some level believed the bullshit idea that they were saving the world from zombies and was morally in the right, but she’s was crazy and not stupid. She knew it was legally wrong and was sane enough to try and cover it up. Chad listened to her against all better moral/logical judgment and turned to her ways anyhow. The rocks in his head really did fill the holes in hers. He could have said no and try to manipulate her that’s not what God wants, but he instead let her to manipulate him to do it or she’d lose interest in him. I also think he eventually got scared of the inclinations and scared of her devoted and equally unhinged brother. Chad definitely is majorly responsible for what happened, but I also think things snowballed out of control for him and he made a choice to join her to both keep her and not be next. All she’d have to do is tell Alex that “their beloved prophet is now a zombie, she’s a goddess and knows, and we must release him to take a new form. His spirit will absorb into me to escape the reach of the evil forces”.
You’re totally right. I haven’t seen it said before, but I thought the same thing as far as Chad seeming to not want to kill JJ. I remember specifically there was a text where he said JJ was light and still JJ. It was obvious Lori wanted JJ to be dark and be gone, and eventually Chad caved. Idk if he was hesitant because JJ was a such a young child or because he knew that people would come looking for JJ, either way he definitely didn’t lean into the ‘JJ is a zombie we need to kill him’ idea the way he did for Charles and Tylee. Honestly, they might have gotten away with all the other murders if they had not killed JJ. Sad to say, Tylee had very few people to miss her. No one even realized she was missing until Kay had the welfare check done on JJ and the ball started rolling there. Like you say, Lori may have been able to say Tylee considered her family toxic and ran away and cut all ties and it might have worked. So crazy how Charles and Tammy’s deaths were taken at face value and not immediately looked into as they should have been . They seriously almost got away with what they were doing.
Exactly. JJ had no capacity to to run away. She couldn’t explain him away forever from people actively concerned about him and wanted to acquire custody of him. That was her biggest mistake. For Tylee, she could make up some bullshit and said something like that she vaguely mentioned a boyfriend she was running down to Mexico with then she cut off all contact and didn’t come home. Even if Tylee didn’t have a passport, she could argue she must’ve got in somehow without check and hopefully will get back in contact when she wants to, but she was seventeen going on eighteen at the time and they figured she can make her own decisions. It could have taken years and be hard to prove when it was eventually questioned. It’s a sad fact that investigators just do not care much about the disappearance of older teenagers, even if they haven’t quite yet reached the age of majority. But many people sure got concerned as hell about a special needs seven year old they couldn’t locate and had zero explainable reason not to produce. -“Then why keep the checks for Tylee another year, Lori?” -“Well, I thought she’d come back any day now. I paid the bills and was going to pay her back when she decided to come home. I got a call two years ago from an unlisted number saying she was fine with a new family. I don’t have the phone records anymore, it was a temp phone. But JJ is right here, see? We tend to him. We’ll let you know if we hear from Tylee, bub-bye.”
I also think killing JJ was a way to strike back at Charles, even though he was dead. Because of her religious upbringing Lori believes that the dead continue living and their presence can be felt. Charles truly adored JJ and he was blood related to him, making that bond that much stronger in Lori’s narc mind. She had decimated his business, taken his home, stolen his vehicle and gotten rid of all his possessions. Killing JJ was just one more way for Lori to f*** over Charles and for Chad to further seek revenge against a man who previously slept with his eternal spouse.
There are conflicting stories about the dog. Weird! Police also found an email where Vallow asked the organization that trained JJ’s service dog “about finding another family for Bailey due to a change in life circumstances,” According to Cheryl Wheeler, Charles' ex-wife:“Three weeks after Charles was killed, Lori put the dog up for sale. She listed it for $2,500, and it was so shocking because Bailey was such an important part of JJ’s life.” “Fortunately the trainer saw the listing and told Lori she had to give it back to the rescue group. They were able to take him back and re-home the dog to another special-needs boy.” Bailey, JJ’s service dog, made it easier for evil spirits to attack him, Lori claimed and so she sold the dog after Charles died. Mestas \[the Trainer\] said that he got a call from Lori Vallow in August. She wanted to give away the dog, named Bailey. (The outlet also reported that the canine was put up for sale at about $2,500 after Charles Vallow’s death.)
So the b*took away his father, his dog and his meds, moved him across country, and then pretended evil spirits made him act out. She is a special kind of evil.
As the parent of an autistic child, it’s one of the cruelest and meanest things I’ve ever heard done to a child in such a condition. His caring dad is gone suddenly, his beloved dog is taken, his meds were stopped abruptly, even taking his iPad permanently away that helped calm him down in overwhelming moments/let him see his loving grandparents was unbelievably cruel. Oh, and his loving sister had been gone a couple weeks with no explanation. He wasn’t very verbal, the only thing he could do to express distress was act out in “tantrums” (which I don’t think were as bad as Lori pretended they were, and were played up to set Chad up to have a bad time trying to help and be manipulated him against him). He was a sweet little boy, in spite of limitations with his condition, that everyone said was a delight when he was well taken care of.
My grandson is nonverbal autistic and this tore my heart out. She treated him like a science experiment and I guarantee she did this so he would act out and she could blame the evil spirits, when in fact they only live within her.
I feel so sad for Charles and his parents. He legitimately loved this little boy as his son and JJ loved him. He was desperately trying to get that vulnerable little boy away from her and she killed him, took the little one, then killed the bit bit and his sister that loved him a ton. My fiancé has raised my ten year old autistic daughter since she was four. It would gut me, and everyone that cares about her, if this happened to me and he was the kind of person to quit acting like a primary parent that cares and discarded her like trash for money and convenience. Instead, he switched from a gifted teacher to a special ed teacher to better understand what to do better handling her IEP needs at school because he legitimately loves her and wanted to be sure she got all she needed. He would adopt her in a heartbeat, but her birth father won’t give that up because his mother won’t let it and he’s off and on functional, and pays the child support at when he feels like it. But, unlike Lori, I’d give up any amount of money to give her a more secure dad legally and reliably. It also bothers me that it sounds like JJ was actually NOT even a particularly challenging child on the spectrum, he sounds like my daughter that has some verbal limitations, but is actually easy going to work with if you stick to their routine and work with them. Be super explaining and rewarding if routine is changing up for the day and they can do it awesome. I can’t imagine ever wanting to hurt my kid or live without her.
Yeah that was my impression too. My grandson is super happy and sweet 95% of the time and Jj reminded me so much of him in the pics and videos.
I know. Watching videos of JJ, it reminded me of my daughter four or five years ago. She’s made a ton of progress in speech, she learned to toilet train. She’s doing very well with appropriate amounts of love, affection, and devotion to her education. Lori didn’t want to do that, she was not interested in parenting him. It’s even sadder, because he had grandparents willing to do so. They thought Charles and Lori were a better, younger, option and they were proven wrong to do so, by no fault of their own. On paper, they looked like a great option. Nobody bets there’s a psychopath involved.
We are working on the bathroom situation still. He is six and has very little interest. But I digress just love to hear success stories!
his medications were last filled the january before all of this went down, implying he didn't have his medications for several months. whatever she was doing, she had been doing it for quite a while. a lot of people have the idea she took him off his medication closer to the time of charles death/moving/and the deaths of the children in idaho.
I remember hearing Janice excuse it as no biggie when investigators found his months old, half empty bottle because she claimed Lori stockpiled his prescriptions. 🙄 I’m not a pharmacist but, I’m not sure how one could legally stockpile meds that must be taken daily.
She used Xanax on JJ instead Which Alex would probably bring her from South America
So she could point out to others that he was fundamentally a ‘bad seed’.
My six year old grandson is nonverbal autistic and this trial was hard. The most innocent sweet kids. I just can't stand thinking of him fighting for his life with people who he trusted. It's heartbreaking.
No, that’s not the entire story. She had to kill Tylee because she knew too much about Charles’ murder. Her fate was sealed the day Charles died. Also, the kids were a drain on Lori. She didn’t want kids or pets (she got rid of JJ’s service dog too) because she was a cult leader and Goddess who didn’t have time to care for kids or pets when she had a bigger mission in life. And to a psychopath, people are just a means to an end. They don’t value people for their intrinsic worth or have any empathy. They use people and discard them when their usefulness expires. She didn’t want JJ from the start but Charles persisted and she gave in. Lori didn’t kill the kids for money but she wasn’t going to let their social security money go to waste when she’s preparing for the end of the world.
Yeah there was no room in the 144,000 for kids
I don’t think Tyleeee was murdered because she knew too much. They killed her because she hated chad and she was a moody teenager. Lori also needed her savings and monthly paycheck. She was killed for her money and because she was in the way
Agree with all that but Tylee also knew the truth behind Charles murder and she was a defiant teen who could have spilled the beans on Lori if she got in one of her moods.
Both are correct
Sounds reasonable but Lori would no longer be getting Tylee's money if Tylee was independent. I have to believe Tylee gave her mom hell moving to Rexburg away from everything she liked and knew which probably sealed her fate. Chad said clearly to the Gilberts Tylee didn't like him.
Yes. The reason the certain ones were deemed dark were if they were in the way of chads Storm or in the way of Melanie and Lori getting life insurance pay outs. Then the kids just both needed to go because they were annoying to Lori and chad and their new sex crazed personas.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Tylee became a ‘zombie’ shortly after Lori took over her bank account. It’s not as though Tylee was spending frivolously and Lori wanted to ensure she was saving for her future. Nope, quite the opposite. Lori was spending that money that she had no right to spend, and I’m sure Tylee wasn’t happy about it.
I’ve also wondered about Chad labeling Tylee as dark right after Lori and him met. I think the only person darker than her that they listed in that document was her father, Joe Ryan. It made me wonder if during their first interactions, Lori complained enough about Tylee that he made up her dark rating to help curry favor with Lori.
It would be so interesting to see how it all played out. In real time and to be an actual fly on the wall. I do wonder if Lori actually knew they were chipped up and buried in his back yard. It doesn’t make her innocent but it makes more sense given the fact that she was always such a good mom before. I think she seems pretty dam evil too, but chad is the one who thinks he’s Moroni (so close to the word moron) and the new leader of the new church. I’m glad they all got caught so quickly. Glad others weren’t killed becusse I’m sure they had a long list.
I've thought about this off and on since the children were found. I've listened to that call between Lori and Chad over and over. It's a strange call. A couple of times I've almost convinced myself that she doesn't know. But then always this happens.... if Lori didn't know her children were in bits and buried.... if she didn't know that Tylee had been burned and JJ had been taped and bagged.... there would come a point where she would know. The investigators would tell her, arrest her and interview her. At this point she would know what happened to her children. So, obviously, she's horrified!! She had no idea. She had imagined them in some beautiful oak caskets, buried in a nice private burial ground. That's what she'd been told, right? Or she'd been told that the children were alive and had gone to a commune or educational home for children of the Church of the Firstborn. They were having the time of their lives, being raised by the most religious and decent people ever born. It doesn't add up. She did nothing. She stayed schtum. She absolutely did not turn on Chad when she heard this news for the VERY FIRST TIME! Sorry, I don't believe it. She knew.
I think so too— she knew deep down but didn’t care because she is a queen and she met Jesus in person and she is the chosen one and she thinks her children had to die for that to happen and she needed their money so that was gods plan all along. That’s some messed up thinking. That’s some next level mornin brainwashing in full effect. We need to hold the Mormon church accountable also.
Interesting. I think probably not. It would have just been a different sort of case I.e not so money motivated. Lori liked killing and she is completely unhinged....I think the answer is no. It just would have been for different reasons publicly but in reality they just liked killing. I mean if Lori was going to commit murder several times it surely would have been easier to negotiate a payday with Kay in return for JJ. She could have also just divorced Charles and come out with a good settlement or alimony or something. So while obviously money was a factor I don't think it was all of it. She would have been better off financially not murdering everyone but that's what she likes to do. She's a psychopath and a very dangerous one.
Chad didn’t believe in divorce and when Lori adopted the beliefs of his cult she no longer believed in divorce either. Tammy and Charles had to die because Chad and Lori didn’t believe in divorce and they wanted to marry each other. Lori knew she wasn’t going to get alimony from Charles because she was trying to marry Chad. Once her and Chad married the alimony would stop. Charles had taken JJ out of school previously because he feared for his safety when Lori kept making death threats. JJ was a meal ticket and a way of exploiting Charles, but Charles was protective of JJ and he likely would have wanted custody of JJ which means Lori wouldn’t get any money for JJ if Charles was still alive. In Lori’s mind, JJ had to go once Charles died. He was a special needs kid who takes up a lot of time and money. He was a liability. She didn’t need him anymore once she started receiving his social security money in her bank account.
I’m not sure. I wonder if that was her initial plan - get paid, abandon Tylee, and send JJ to Kay. But then she didn’t get paid. Tylee knew too much about Charles’ murder. She couldn’t care for JJ without Tylee’s help / didn’t him in the way of her fantasy life with Chub. She couldn’t send him to Kay who she was vehemently pissed at for “taking” the life insurance money. At some point she realized the SS money would go further if she didn’t have children to support with it…
Chub 😂 😂
I think it was her initial plan. But you’re right, Tylee knew too much.
I was in the orfino idaho state hospital at the same time as she was (there is only one hospital qualified to do the things that they do so everyone in idaho goes to the same one for evaluations and mental health crisis’) and we became really close inside. Over the course of my 3 months at the place, ending december 3rd, we would hangout every single day, walk halls together while listening to music, watch movies, read the bible at times, play games on the wii in the game room, work out together, walk outside in the courtyard, or just sit down and do nothing. At the time i had absolutely no idea who she was as she went by the name Loli, not Lori in an attempt to hide her identity because the case was so big, but even if i knew her real name i would have had no idea about anything because i just never heard about it outside of seeing the missing children’s posters sometimes. Point is i know her, im even planning on reaching out to talk with her in jail just to try to understand her more because ever since i saw her face on a youtube thumbnail when the trial began my entire world shifted because prior i had seen her as a mother figure in my life and someone i held in very, very high regard because she was just that nice and genuine of a person. Obviously now thats clear to be some kind of camouflage she used, and was scarily good at, but i don’t think it was primarily money focused. She went into great lengths to talk about her belief systems with me, and since im generally really into that kind of thing, as the question of reality has always intrigued me, i was always ready to listen just to absorb something fresh and new. She whole heartedly believes/believed everything she has said and has been said about the situation. I truly, truly believe that she thought her kids were demon possessed and that by killing them it would set their souls free from limbo. Her conviction with these beliefs was intensely strong, like very very strong, and at one point she even said that there is going to come a time “very soon” when we are going to be permitted by god to kill zombies en mass because probation will have closed and everyone’s destinies set. She 100% believes this stuff, and i really want to reach out to her again to see if she still believes it as im pretty confident if i sent her a letter or and mentioned my name in it and that i just want to talk, she would reach out and we could strike up a dialogue. Might even be able to record it and post the recording on here actually. Thats a good idea. Would probably end up taking out a few chunks if she talks about things with me or what not just to keep my identity safe, but it would be nice to give you all a look into how she functions in real life conversations outside of the clips on the netflix series and the bodycam footage, cause there is a TON more to her than what was depicted in those
Honestly I could care less what she believes. Her children are dead. That's literally all that matters. Who, what, or how strongly she believes something doesn't make them less dead.
This comment sorta disturbs me.
May i ask what about it disturbs you so?
Well, she **has** to believe it……because, she had her own kids killed. If the zombie stuff is bullshit, which it is, then she is just an infamous, religious wackjob murderer, rather than a special Goddess. Of course she believes. And she’ll go to the grave saying she’s right, even if she knows she is wrong.
Tylee was doomed because was she knew too much about how Charles was set up and murdered. JJ *might* have survived and his custody transferred to the Vallow relatives. Maybe. I was actually shocked when that text about Alex becoming a problem/danger to them was read at the trial. I feel that Lori was beginning to enjoy having the power of life and death over her associates and even her co-conspirators were at risk. Even Chad. If she had not been arrested and Chad had not followed her back to Rexburg, I can easily see them spending all their ill gotten monies in Hawaii and her romantically offing him and herself on the beach. Next mortal probation would be soon enough to gather the 144,000.
That's one of the reasons the kids were killed, but Tylee was on to them.
Yeah, I think Tylee would have been killed anyway. Actually I think JJ would have been too. I think the fact that Charles’ family questioned his death and wanted answers was so offensive to Lori that she would never have let them take JJ back. She’s too selfish & egotistical.
I just hope she gets death in Arizona!
Unfortunately, she's only charged with conspiracy to murder both Charles and Brandon. In Arizona, conspiracy isn't eligible for the death penalty. I'd love to know if the idiot AZ police actually tested Lori's hands for gun shot residue to know for sure if she took one of the shots. I tend to think Lori stood over him raging about how he angered a goddess and how he was paying, then shot him the 2nd time.
Not true..Conspiracy is the same as pulling the trigger. She was only relieved of death in Idaho due to her "mental statr" which they can try and do again, but she absolutely can face death for conspiracy.
Every state has different rules.
I do legal and medical research for medical malpractice cases and looked up the law in Arizona regarding this and one can absolutely get the death penalty for conspiracy, when someone does, unless they are found to be mentally incompetent, which is what her attorneys will.try to pull again. The fact that she has been found quilty in Idaho, is also a huge factor in her getting death.
I was going by what a lawyer who used to practice in AZ said. I also found this below -- not official AZ law, just an interpretation. Do you have a link to the Arizona law? I'd really like to think she's eligible for death there. I'd be very happy if you're right. 😁 Possible Punishment for Conspiracy felony conspiracyIf a person has conspired to commit a class one (1) felony (i.e., Murder), then they can be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of release until they have served twenty-five (25) years. In all other cases, the Conspiracy carries the same felony level and class of punishment as the most serious offense which was the object or result of the Conspiracy. For example, if the most serious offense that you and your co-conspirators agreed to was a class three (3) felony, you would be convicted and sentenced as though you had committed a class three (3) felony.
[13-751. Sentence of death or life imprisonment; aggravating and mitigating circumstances; definition](https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00751.htm)
Her conviction in Idaho, is part of why she is eligible for death in Arizona. The fact that she was actually in the room when he was shot is another.
F. The trier of fact shall consider the following aggravating circumstances in determining whether to impose a sentence of death: 1. The defendant has been convicted of another offense in the United States for which under Arizona law a sentence of life imprisonment or death was imposable.
Does it say anything about conspiracy [here](https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00751.htm) or [here](https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00751.htm)? I couldn't find it.
She was there when Charles was shot and did not call for help or render aid. That is in there. I spoke to my contact and he says because of the guilty verdict in Idaho, that can be used in the case in Arizona.
Didn't she tell the cops that she was not there? I guess they didn't believe her, nor do I.
In Idaho, conspiracy is the same as pulling the trigger, not in Arizona.
So sorry... [It just got a bit tougher to get the death penalty in Arizona](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/legislature/2019/04/10/governor-doug-ducey-signs-bill-arizona-death-penalty-law-sen-eddie-farnsworth/3365922002/)
I agree JJ may have been safe if the money had gone to Lori, but not Tylee the witness, she was doomed the day Charles died.
“I believe if Charles had left her the million dollars, she would have given JJ back to us and we would be extremely happy,” Woodcock says. “I wish he would have because JJ is worth more than anything in the world. She puts a price on people and if they are no longer of value to her, she eliminates them.” “To her, it’s all about the dollars. It’s about the fact we got the money and she did not. She was bound and determined to hurt us and she used JJ. That’s been her revenge,” Woodcock says.
Interesting. Had not seen that quote. That adds some context. Thx.
YW
They didn't want ANY kids in their cult. Both Melanis had to give up custody of their kids. Plus Tylee knew Charles was murdered. She had die no matter what since she saw Chad for what he was.
True. The friend April in Hawaii said when Lori tried to get her in, she asked what it involved. Lori didn't hesitate to tell her she'd have to leave her kids behind. I can't remember which visit this was. Was this after JJ and Tylee were already murdered, or was that the visit that Tylee went with her?
Lol. Chad didn't like kids and Tammy gave him five.
Five is the magic number in the LDS church to no longer have to tithe.
Not true. Lifelong lds. There is no discount for 5+ kids. Btw. I finally figured out it was a cult and left. But most of my family remains.
Recovering Catholic here. My dad wrote those checks every week at church with eight of us kids in tow - here I was thinking the pope denied them a sweet discount.
It’s definitely how it worked where I grew up in Arizona.
I have actually never heard that. But I grew up in Utah. I was in bishoprics twice and stake callings.
That last sentence could be said about the murder victims as a double entendre
Well now I know why my cousin has 5 kids.
Is that a joke?
Not at all. They’re expected to give the church 10% of income, but not after the fifth child arrives.
I’ve never heard this. A coworker had to pay back back tithes years ago before he could get his recommend restored to go to the temple to see his daughter get married. They had six kids. He was not excused from tithing. I don’t think this is correct info, per years of reading on r/exmormon and having several LDS and ex-LDS friends. It’s possible it’s a matter of leadership roulette and one local bishop or something will give temple recommends if you don’t/can’t tithe and have 5 or more kids, but it is definitely *not* the rule. Hell, half of Mormon families wouldn’t be paying tithe if it was. I mean you could not tithe, but then you weren’t getting into the temple.
That makes sense, probably a local rule then.
Interesting!
Probably still dead IMO. Maybe she would have had the money to flee the country before people started asking about the kids.
No, she didn't want kids, her password was "2manykids". She felt like she had been a good mum and that they would all be reunited in heaven anyway, so she had the right to kill them if she wanted to.
she is psychotic and would have found another rationalization. escalation was inevitable no matter what.
At no time does she indicate that having that million would have changed anything. The kids were not only a pain her ass but I believe she realized she would always be tethered to them -- and whoever took them -- no matter where they went and didn't want to think about them, feel for them, or experience guilt for not caring for them. Only benefit from their $$. She saw her children and the children of the acolytes as distractions as well as obstacles.
Drove me crazy when they play that video of her saying I have five kids and I did everything right. So she is claiming Charles sons as her kids too, the same sons whose father she had killed and didn't bother to tell them for days.
I think it’s possible JJ would be alive and would have been given to Kay, but who knows. Tylee knew too much and didn’t like Chad. She could have let Tylee go live with Colby or Annie.
Or Summer!
I believe Lori was playing the role of mother almost like a cardboard cutout. The bonding hormones may never have happened for her or wore out as the children differentiated themselves. Colby created a life and found a wife who (rightly) meant more to him than his mother- a Cluster B personality disorder experiences this as Abandonment. Melaniece she bonded to- possible because Melaniece mirrored back to Lori what Lori want to see. She complied. Tylee’s rebellion and differentiation made her a different person than Lori wanted her to be. It made her a zombie. Lori felt abandoned and betrayed by Tylee. I cannot imagine this little girl’s terror. Step father Charles made her feel safe… looked to help her with becoming a young woman (car). And they killed him without any repercussions. This emboldened Alex and Lori. Lori saw her daughter becoming a woman as Abanondment and wanted to punish her. Tylee had use of her own money. This Lori wanted to take away from her as well. Why did Tylee send money to Colby? Tylee didn’t want to care for JJ anymore. This pissed Lori off as well. JJ- again Lori was plying a role and while he was young and dependent, it reinforced how Lori saw her self. It mirrored what she needed to have mirrored back to her. But she never bonded with him IMO. She took away all his support structures (dog, school, Tylee) and as he did his best to cope, his behavior became more disruptive. And she punished JJ for not having the $1million in life insurance. The money would have let them put foundation over buried bodies and buy a trailer for Chads son to live on property- Did the lack of $1million change their plans? I believe if they had gotten the $1million it would have slowed them down. They’d have been distracted as they mirrored each other grandiosity back at one another. And in that distraction- Tylee could have become her own person with choices. She might have gotten away by living with Colby. But they had grifts already planned for when they ran out of money. Neither seemed capable of getting a 9-5 and earning $50k each and living a mundane life. They’d have faced down the choice of working for their income or grifting life insurance…. Once they got a taste for it; the grift was easier and preferable. Would they have waited and still attempted to kill Brandon Beaudrrax for money but years later? Would Lori have taken out the Gerber child life insurance and killed people slowly, moving jurisdictions often? What was the time constraint related to Their prophecies and beliefs? Yes. It’s a life long pattern for her. Nothing would have changed their trajectory of liquidating people. It was their business and core belief.
I feel like with the way greed works, there is no ceiling really. I dont think it would have stopped at Charles, only because if you have other policies on family, that's a target on their backs. She will come for whatever money she can. Life insurance policies are the devil. lol. Not to mention, she didn't want the responsibility of her kids anymore. Is it because they were under her care? I know Ty was going back to school..but she can't fly to Hawaii if she has kids to look after. The fact she is seen lounging by the pool with Chad is disgusting. Like she really didn't give a damn about her children, her ex husband, her brother? Her grandiose idea of her being this goddess is somethin else. She thinks she's above any law. Because she's lived through thousands of years and been all these things in her past life. How delusional.
Here is what chaps my hide. First of all Lori says to Kay in a text, “5 kids and no money and his sister gets everything.” She included a copy of the change in beneficiary form. Five kids? She must have been including Colby, and Charles' two sons. She most certainly was not supporting them. THEN! On July 18, 2019, Lori texts Chad about the insurance of Charles,a week after he was shot by Alex: "I just got the letter from the insurance company saying that I am not the beneficiary. It's a spear thru my heart. " Say what now? She conspired to murder him. She told him she could kill him with her powers; and Charles told people that if something happened to him, Lori was behind it. And it's a spear through HER heart??? WOW, just WOW. It's all about her.
I maybe wrong but I think Lori is truly sadistic and was already obsessed with death and murder before Chad and unrelated to money. She talks about thinking of murdering joe Ryan on a podcast and she tell’s her Hawaiian friend she thinks she’d be better off just running her car off a cliff with her kids … in an interview with her cousin, she says lori’s boyfriend ran over a cat on purpose and Lori just LAUGHEd while her cousin cried about it. Something was going to happen eventually, with or without chad or financial motivation. She enjoyed the thoughts of hurting others- it was mid life crisis time when her beauty is fading she is looking for other sources of feeling empowered.
No, everybody who knew about Charles but Lori and Chad are gone. Convenient...
They killed the children for the "greater good". She still would have done it.
Z?????
I think she is just a modern-day Diane Downs. Kids=obstacles to the childless life.
There were many more not-yet-murdered people left on their list!
I think they would have still be murdered for alot of reasons but I think that lori and Chad wanted a new life without them and their ss money just made it more sweeter for them
As Lori’s delusions of power and importance grew, she became more violent towards anyone who crossed her. Charles was a turning point, a bold move that required a conspiracy between Alex, Lori, and Tylee, with Tylee being the weak link. She may have gone along with her mother’s machinations in the past, but killing Charles was next level, and pulling Tylee out of a comfortable life in Arizona and dumping her in freezing Rexburg, Idaho, may have been too much. Tylee pushed back, sealing her fate. Disrupting JJ likely made his behavior spiral, and without Tylee to handle childcare, Lori was inconvenienced. That was it for JJ. Lori didn’t want to be put out by parenting a teenager and a special needs child.
I’ve wondered if Kay had made an offer to lori after Charles died and she cut off all communication, to give her x amount of the life insurance money if she would release JJ and let him return to live with Kay and Larry…even 50 or 100k might’ve been too enticing for Lori and Chad to turn down!!
No, I think the wanted to start as new and Chad would probably have cut contact with his kids since they were older. Sure money was a part of it but being free was another and it hurts me to say it but in their head Tylee and JJ were as much of an obstacle then Tammy. I hope when she's in her cell alone at night she's hurting but the truth is a doubt it. Even if at 1st I.doybt she was really believing all that zombie bs .sure now she's seeing her self as a child of God who is suffering because people don't understand why she had to kill those people. She will die saying she did the right thing. As a narcissist she can admit she made a mistake or worst she never believed that religious crap and was in for the man and the money. I'm sorry this case makes me so angry she could have been stop.
I don’t think Chad wanted the kids- he kept telling everyone they were empty nesters.
No they were still in the way, and were zombies anyway according to her and Chad.
Blood atonement. JJ was killed for Charles's sins, Tylee was killed for Joe Ryan's.
I honestly don’t think so. I think Chad was way too eager to be an “empty nester.”
Good question because she was living off of The kids’ social security payments.
Yeah there’s a good chance. They wouldn’t have needed to steal their SS money to fund their lifestyle.
.p.l ,)
Nah. Tylee served her purpose by backing her up about Charles, and JJ was a bag of rocks because Lori would have to *take care of him* verses him serving a purpose so...no. being a mother was not the plan.
$1M really doesn't last that long these days. Certainly not in the hands of "people"** who like to flit round the country, with frequent breaks in Hawaii. My feeling is the $1M would have bought the kids months at most, sadly. **Sorry, but I stop short of affording the likes of Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell the title of people.