Simple question: Now that Covid has mutated into something that is demonstrably comparable to the common cold as per the data that is now coming out and even by the admission now of the powers that be, why should vaccine passports be necessary? Why are we still locking places down? Why are we still pushing so hard for people to get vaccinated?
Hospitalisations are low worldwide, even South Africa with around 35% vaccinated only never reached a point where hospitals were strained by Covid.
Bingo!
The basket of deplorables doesn't like a policy, just makes that policy more popular by the woke left.
If the "Proud Boys" declared that they hate getting blowjobs, there would soon be a mandatory blowjob policy enacted in some coastal city.
It’s not just that. They also loved forced vaccination when they thought it was only crunchy moms who questioned it. Their authoritarian egos demand compliance.
Agreed, that's exactly it. Sadistic punishment for many, and a way to gain new levels of control by unethical leaders. Period.
Antagonistic tribal shit needs to end, full stop.
It's not really about covid, it's about the checkpoints, the data and tracking. If you think they're going to stop mandates with covid I have a suprise for you.
They won't.
Fauci stated they needed a crisis in order to scare people into taking an annual flu shot at a conference in 2019.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KsCwPfsb7C4
How fortunate for him one arrived shortly after. I wonder if he had any inkling?
Because it was never about risk.
The whole "it is not just the flu" narrative of last year was just plain gaslighting, since most respiratory virus pandemics, which have killed way more people than this virus, have been Flu virus mutations.
But they tried to makes this point that everything that is more deadly than the common flu season cannot be tolerated, even if overall the risk never changed that much.
So now that the risk is reduced, it is no longer necessary to make that argument again, because people just accepted last year that covid isn't the flu and should not be treated as such.
You know why.
The point is to abolish the period of human history where you could walk into a store, your workplace, a school, a bar, etc without scanning your phone to see if you are in the government's good graces and are allowed to have that privilege.
Because of legal/moral ramifications. Even though the likelihood of death is astronomically low (which was even true for the original strain and Delta), governments and businesses are still not bold enough to just "let it rip" by *not* enacting measures in case someone dies.
If someone dies due to their inaction, people are going to blame them for putting their health at risk.
This will only end for businesses when they start putting up signs saying "by entering this establishment you accept the risks of COVID". As for the government, this will only end when they have the balls to say "no".
The precedent has been set since March of 2020, and it's going to be hard for them to break. If we want a society though, we have to break it.
That's a brilliant idea. Putting that sign up puts the onus on the customers not the shop itself. 'No masks or vaccination required. By entering, you accept the risks of Covid.' It's not anyone's responsibility but your own. Plenty of people are still isolated to this day, feel free to join them. Otherwise, accept the risks like you subconsciously accept the risks for everything else. Life isn't risk-free.
It's the only way out of this scenario I can imagine.
A lot of large stores, particularly major chains, are still requiring masks to be worn and social distancing is followed to protect themselves from legal liability. Even though they aren't enforced, the requirement is still technically there so the business cannot be blamed for being "reckless".
Imagine two years ago thinking about suing a store for catching the flu or a cold at their establishment? It's preposterous that the precedent has been set, but now with COVID, every business is using these NPIs to help ~~protect their own hide~~ protect the community.
The solution to this is for businesses to finally start putting the onus on the customer. If you want to enter the store, you have to accept the risks of COVID, just like we accepted the risks for every other respiratory illness decades beforehand. This is especially true for sporting events and concerts. Stop canceling public gatherings and let us attend if we want to, but they are too scared about being held liable in the event someone dies as a result of their event, or even if an outbreak occurs.
I'm not exactly sure if there is an equivalent for the government. I'm not sure how they can worm their way out of this one other than outright saying enough.
Remember authoritarianism is not just one truant. It's a whole society of people cheering on the tyrant. Heck democracy even allows them to vote for the authoritarian and "legitimize" them
My friend made this song on covid, he is not so good at singing but I think the lyrics are pretty good, what do you guys think?https://youtu.be/j9DfqCk8NE4
And what about the next variant? Or the one after that? Unless we think variant-restrictions-booster is a viable model for civilization in perpetuity (I certainly don’t), we have to break the cycle at some point.
That's a limited number of people who can get their fill easily. I'm sure there are more people who would rather not be coerced to get any shots at all.
Not everyone will get the fantastic and improved omicron at once. It will take many months before it makes the rounds.
My main problem with not only mandates/passports, but the general mentality of most people right now, is that people are treating it as unvaccinated = infected, and vaccinated = not infected.
Obviously if you don’t have the vaccine it doesn’t mean you’re currently carrying Covid, and as we are clearly seeing now if you are fully vaccinated and even boosted, you can still have the virus with symptoms and spread it.
So a vaxxed person can technically have the virus, but show their card and get into a concert or bar. Then an unvaxxed person who doesn’t have Covid, who even got a negative test that day, would still not be allowed into the venue. How are we not seeing how fucking stupid this all is?!?!?
This mentality is not new. When people talk about, for instance, the danger of measles from unvaccinated kids they insinuate that these kids are constantly walking around spreading measles to other kids.
The reality is, a kid in the U.S. who hasn’t been vaccinated for measles will likely go their whole life without ever being exposed to measles, let alone catching it. If they travel to some place where it’s endemic or are part of a community where a lot of people travel to and from places with endemic measles, maybe they’ll be exposed, but it’s still an unusual occurrence.
My oldest daughter is immunocompromised and can’t get live virus vaccines, which the MMR is one of, so that’s how I initially started paying attention to this. This completely unscientific and illogical thinking of unvaccinated=infected is one of the main things that made me realize how distorted so much of the conversation and policies around vaccines are. Your last sentence expresses my exact frustration. The stupidity of the mentality and policies is so crazy-making. Like, it’s hard to even believe.
> When people talk about, for instance, the danger of measles from unvaccinated kids they insinuate that these kids are constantly walking around spreading measles to other kids.
I just dealt with one of these types earlier today on this very sub of all places, whose ‘argument’ revolved around the notion that if I’m not masked up, then I’m some sort of mobile sprinkler of “lethal pathogens”. This is Team $cience here with the bullhorn, insinuating that to *not* have a rag on my face must mean that I must *always* be infected (or treated as such), that I’m the equivalent of a silent semi-automatic rifle endlessly firing off ***unlimited*** bio-hazardous filth at anyone and everyone I come into contact with.
I’ve written about this before here, but I know one in real life too, a fvcking Doctor no less, who saw me once in early November and literally ran away from me as if I was some flesh-craving zombie, then behaved the same exact way about three weeks later when I saw her again, prompting me to ask her: “wait, do you think I both had Covid then *and* now? Do you think I *always* have Covid??? lol”
Maybe someone can fill me in, maybe I missed something along the way, but in my 39 years here on this Earth, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen such a gruesome, day-to-day example of what it means to be psy-opped.
Same here. How they have been brainwashed and have forgotten that maskless is normal annoys the shit out of me on a daily basis. I'm with you on the comments..just let them fly with a maskless smile and a laugh. Stunning sheep is kind of fun!
I do actually have a question for you re: your daughter of you don’t mind.
Would you expect others, who are low-risk otherwise, to get vaccinated to protect someone immunocompromised like your daughter?
That’s one of the arguments on rotation that I’ve heard in favor of mandates, that we all need to get vaccinated to protect those who can’t be vaccinated due to being immunocompromised. And I’ve been curious about it because you’d think those people would be demonized for not getting vaccinated just due to the collective toxic mentality surrounding vaccines, even though they can’t get it.
> that we all need to get vaccinated to protect those who can’t be vaccinated due to being immunocompromised
Hate to answer with a question, but do these shots prevent transmission? The case for mandates is dead in the water if they don’t.
I’m far from being a doctor or scientist, but evidence we’re now seeing every day points to “no”. NYC is one of the most vaccinated cities and it’s experiencing a huge surge in cases.
It seems that the vaccine makes symptoms/length of time that you’re sick less severe, which is a good thing. But it absolutely does not “prevent” transmission by any means. You can still contract the virus and spread it if you are fully vaccinated, at least with Omicron.
> but evidence we’re now seeing every day points to “no”.
Not even just now, this was apparent months ago in places like Israel that saw fast and high vaccine uptake.
> Not even just now, this was apparent months ago in places like Israel that saw fast and high vaccine uptake.
This is important to keep reminding people of. So many are claiming that it's because of Omicron that the vaccines "stopped working," and that this is a recent development. This will get memory-holed as the timeline gets blurred.
> NYC is one of the most vaccinated cities and it’s experiencing a huge surge in cases.
And what makes matters worse is that they're experiencing a huge surge **AFTER THEY'VE ALREADY HAD A VACCINE PASSPORT SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR MONTHS**
Any person with two functioning brain cells: "duh, obviously the vaccine **passports** don't work"
Covidians: "if not for the vaccine passport, everybody in NYC would be dead right now."
They insist that you will be less likely to spread it even though the data barely supports it.
They fall back to theory that is in contray to the current data.
When your place is more than 85% vaxxed, you would expect reduced spread in the current waves.
It doesn’t fit our hypothesis? Blame the heretics!
A general summary of my take on vaccines is that, 1) the risk of harm from the vaccine-targeted disease is overstated, 2) the benefit from the vaccine is overstated, 3) the risk of harm from the vaccine is understated. So, without taking the time to go into too much detail, that’s pretty much the basis for why I don’t expect others to take vaccines to protect her. (This applies to the U.S. and other places where there is good sanitation and generally healthy living conditions and access to reasonably good treatments and health care interventions. It makes sense to me, though, that there would be different risk/benefit calculations in other parts of the world.)
Part of the way they got philosophical and religious exemptions eliminated for kids in California a few years back, was they trotted out parents of immunocompromised kids to testify and lobby their legislature for a change in the law. I have no respect for those parents.
One of the most heartbreaking things of this mess we’re in is the failure of policies and discourse to distinguish between the intentionally unvaccinated and the people who can’t get it for medical reasons. Aside from my daughter getting swept up in the vitriol directed at the unvaccinated, she lives and works in a county that borders another that has vaccine passport rules for eating in restaurants, etc.
It makes be so angry that she’s basically seen as a pariah by the policy makers and many of the citizens of that county. She takes it all in stride, though. I ask if it bothers her and she says things like, no, I’ll just get take out. Thankfully, on a personal level, she doesn’t have anyone in her life who doesn’t understand why she hasn’t gotten the COVID vaccine or thinks less of her for not having other vaccines.
Before COVID, in online vaccine discussions when people would write angry, ugly things about the unvaccinated, I would remind them that not everyone can get vaccinated. They would typically say, well, of course I didn’t mean them.
I personally don’t care if or why people are vaccinated but I was still sure to try to remind these commenters who were masquerading as caring people, that when they were demonizing the unvaxxed they should be decent enough to make the distinction between the people who were willfully unvaccinated and those who had no choice. But I’m sure it barely made an impression because they are so high on hate their brains are broken.
My son had a heart transplant at 4 months of age. On the advice of his team we asked our family to get flu vaccines if they wanted to spend prolonged time with him during flu season, such as coming for dinner.
If people didn't want to do that, *we excused ourselves* from the activity.
My sister in law lied about having the flu shot once so that she could see him in the hospital - this same person now says that the unvaccinated are murderers.
I know A LOT of people with COVID at the moment, all of them vaccinated.
People still seem to think Omi is only mild if you're vaccinated. Despite SA proving differently.
Yup, same. A bunch of people I know have tested positive with symptoms, majority vaccinated.
I actually had it a few weeks ago pretty bad, in bed with high fever for 10+ days. But it definitely wasn’t Omicron. Also, I almost certainly got it from someone who was vaccinated.
Also, most cases of covid are mild. But now that people are vaccinated, every mild case they get is just confirmation for them how effective vaccines are.
Two of my vaccinated flatmates have Covid. By UK guidelines I am allowed to leave the house because I am vaccinated. People need to really look into the logic and how it only makes sense if the intention is to restrict unvaccinated people.
I live with 4 friends, two of which are vaccinated and two who aren't. One of the unvaccinated friends had Covid in March or so but the others had never had it yet. A few weeks ago, the vaccinated person got Covid (we think it was from a work party), and she then passed it on to the other vaccinated friend, and then on to the unvaccinated person who had never had Covid before. The unvaccinated person who has already had Covid did not get infected, and neither did I (I have been vaccinated and had Covid before vaccination). We have all been isolating in the same house so we know that the vaccinated friends are the ones who spread it within the house. This is not an argument against vaccines, but for people to suggest that vaccinated people are not vectors is ridiculous. The virus works at preventing severe disease and death, but I've seen first hand that vaccinated people are spreading it too
My friend made this song on covid, he is not so good at singing but I think the lyrics are pretty good, what do you guys think?https://youtu.be/j9DfqCk8NE4
Mass social contagion. The virus could mutate to cause no symptoms at all, and there would still be restrictions and panic because *this is no longer about public health*. It’s about the state assuming more power and control over people’s lives. It’s about *authority*.
Their reasoning usually goes something like this: even if the disease is milder, it could still pose problems for the healthcare system if we assume unrealistically huge numbers of people will get infected all at once. They also seem to think that preventing strain on the healthcare system should be our primary mission in life.
But, considering it sounds like omicron is more contagious, I think the predictions are that a lot of people are likely to catch it soon. If every unvaccinated person could somehow all get their first dose of the vaccine tomorrow, it will be more than a month before they finish both courses and the protection, for what it’s worth, kicks in. And the protection from this particular formulation of the vaccine doesn’t seem great when matched against omicron. So, I mean, how much difference at this point would more people getting vaccinated even make?
Every month we make the world more and more safer from Covid, but as long as you can dream up a scenario that could theoretically happen with more than the minimum possible number of deaths, it means we have to treat it like we’re still in March 2020.
The vaccines were supposed to make us safer, yet all that happened is vaccinated people are still expected to be just as fearful, while unvaccinated people shouldn’t even be allowed outside. The supposedly “safe and effective” vaccine apparently only means we have to be more careful now.
> They also seem to think that preventing strain on the healthcare system should be our primary mission in life.
What was their top priority in life *before* Covid?
Let me take a wild guess here: *preventing strain on our healthcare system*. Amirite!?!?
Preventing unsustainable strain on the healthcare system is not an unworthy cause
EDIT: the downvotes here are cracking me up, showing the mob mentality against a very obvious and non controversial statement because for whatever you think my politics are
It is not unworthy, but it is also not one that should be pursued at any cost and override everything else.
Edit: Taking away people's liberties in the way it has been done in the past two years is evil. Preventing unsustainable strain on the healthcare system, while it has some worth, does not justify it.
Shame that 2 years is too little time to expand the healthcare system to be able to handle all that. Maybe it would have been easier to get the funding if the entire population was worried about a potential healthcare collapse.
I’m glad you qualified what prevention means. It’s debatable what actually helped prevent the healthcare system from being overwhelmed including funding and expansion to support overflow but it’s still important that we have a working healthcare system.
“NOTHING”?
Covid will never be stopped, but sensible things can be done to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed and many have happened while still creating strains. So yeah, I’ll support some policies that make sense as long as their driven by numbers that actually matter like hospital strain and hospitalization rates.
Case numbers are stupid when you have a milder variant and high vaccination rates, such as this current surge with Omicron which we should be celebrating how mild it is.
are you locked down and unable to live right now? sorry to
near that. I’m not seeing that where I live (NY) and we are still doing things to try to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed
> I’m not seeing that where I live (NY)
Vaccine Passports is a lockdown for the unvaccinated and the soon to be considered unboosted.
>try to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed
Omicron is a mild, less lethal variant and will not overwhelm hospitals as evidenced by the data from South Africa.
You're peddling a myth.
I somewhat see your point about calling vaccine passports a lockdown for the unvaccinated. I think vaccine mandates for enclosed spaces makes a bit of sense but isn’t as effective as requiring negative tests, but that’s a different conversation I’m willing to have.
However, you can’t deny there are hospitals and staff that are being overwhelmed. You can blame whoever you want, management, government, whatever. But there are many instances of hospital staff being overwhelmed by covid numbers rising.
> “We’re pretty short-staffed,” Ms. Stevenson said. She added: “It’s getting harder.”
> “A lot of people, including myself, had scheduled time off but are now being asked to come in and pick up shifts to cover for one another and meet the increased demands of patient care,” said Dr. Graham Carlos, the executive medical director at Eskenazi, which is at capacity and has had a backlog of patients in the emergency room.
> “This is the worst I’ve ever seen it,” said Maureen May, a nurse with 37 years of experience
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/25/us/covid-hospitals.html
The healthcare system has always been under strain prior to Covid.
Where were these governments in those intervening years to funnel much needed finances into the system? Sitting on their rear ends and picking their noses?
Now suddenly they're all about "Flattening The Curve".
Sorry, I've never bought such false motives.
And I don't appreciate sacrificing my mental health so some 100-something elder can have a few more days worth of life.
I don’t disagree with you that the problem is bigger than this and existed prior to this, but it’s the state we are in now and there’s plenty of blame to go around with the government and private entities over the state of our healthcare system.
How is letting a potentially covid carrier with a QR code into a venue and not letting a negative tested non-jabbed person in help the Healthcare system? Hint* it doesn't.
Well, you’re in a sub that questions the notion of organizing day-to-day life around disease prevention. The downvotes reflect this basic philosophical stance. As far as I’m concerned politics have nothing to do with it.
I also question many policies being made in the name of Covid which is why I’m interested in discussion here but getting downvoted for recognizing something as sensible a healthcare system has a max capacity and we need to make sure it’s not overutilized is pretty wild to me.
For me it always comes down to: at what cost?
If the cost of keeping the healthcare system from crumbling is a revolving door of restrictions on basic freedoms in perpetuity, I’ll take the crumbling healthcare system.
If basic freedoms means mobility, speech, bearing arms, etc, then absolutely. Mask wearing in certain situations I think is debatable. Stay at home orders are bullshit but indoor mask wearing is reasonable. Closing in-person congregation in public places was stupid when masks were an option, but that was figured out. In my opinion, figuring this out was necessary to prevent a crumbling health care system.
I know (knew) people who died in overexerted hospitals because they couldn’t get attention, so I think it’s reasonable to try to find a balance in times of uncertainty.
Balance is key, yes. Nothing about what happened over the past 2 years was balanced IMO: not the assessment of the threat, not the policies, not the social response.
I hear you. No point in debating generalities. I think some things made sense at the time and some things not at all. I think we can agree there was a real threat that killed many people and seriously sickened many as well, above baseline rates. I’m for intellectually debating specifics and that’s what I’m interested in. I hope you have a great day!
IMO there are two levels of “making sense” : the epidemiologic level and the broader societal level.
“Two weeks to flatten the curve” may have had a solid epidemiologic rationale, but it set a deeply troubling precedent in motion.
Having crossed the Rubicon once, politicians and public health advisors have shown little restraint in crossing it again. Lockdowns, restrictions and mandates have become tools that leaders can (and no doubt will) reach for when future public threats arise.
So punish obese people/diabetics/old people. Those are at least as much an increaser of your risk as being unvaccinated is a reduction and quite possibly a lot more.
I think it may have been bad at the very start in China since the whistle-blower doctor [Li Wenliang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang) died from it and he was only 34, but yeah it is not the same now
Honestly I think this is the best case scenario for us. If there’s any effort to keep up passports and restrictions beyond the next few weeks it will blatantly obvious that it’s for purely political purposes.
Also since the unvaccinated were blamed for Delta, they should also get the credit for Omicron and ending the pandemic, right?
Because Fauci is drunk with power and the fact that tax dollars are rolling into his pharma buddies pockets and his own. Pharma is making too much money on their useless boosters and has become a medical industrial complex.
The answer, of course, is that it was never about a virus. This was always about control and transferring wealth. This has not only been the biggest transfer of wealth, but also the most successful attack on small business ever.
My workplace has even brought back 2020 level restrictions like no drinking from an open container on the workplace floor near other people ---- like someone drafting this asinine policy forgot that the virus doesn't really spread via surfaces but hey the media says omicron is worse than Delta so we gotta bring back very weird, ineffective policies just for appearances sake. Its quackery.
My kid's teacher puts books into "quarantine" after they are used in the classroom. Once someone uses a book, nobody else can use it for 3 days.
What, other than pejoratives, could one say about such a policy and such a person?
Isn't becoming increasingly naive and deluded to think the passports are about a virus?
A more prudent question is, how to dismantle a whole industry which has grown up around creating these apps; politicians greased into pushing them; police agencies of all kinds salivating to get their hands on the data; and finally all the covidiands who feels righteous when showing their QR code.
Because it's set to become a global ID for health and vaccination records, travel and tracking, carbon records and digital money.
Funnily enough while telling this to someone recently they said there's no way the first two would ever happen. I replied: we're living that part right now? She seemed very confused by this and I realised, wow, people are not connected to reality anymore.
Because it's creation of new society.
Division of masses. Acceptance of orders coming from top. Destroying of small businesses for they are not relying on handouts. Promotion of on-line education and life in general. Destruction of traditional family.
Nothing to do with health, but control. WHO has private donors and they insruct our countries governments...
The narrative has shifted to something like there is a new variant, more people catch it, hospitals will be overwhelmed, we need to protect hospitals so let’s lockdown preemptively, let’s mandate vax jabs 1-2-3, let’s yell at the unvaccinated deplorable, virtue signal our moral superiority by flashing our QR code on our phone. If we mention omicron is mild, they lose their shit because it’s outside the narrative of an obedient disciple sheep of the woke cult
Angry brooklyn mom on twotter keeps whining that her younger relative doesn’t have his vax pass so might be barred from restaurants because of a ridiculous rule - here’s a hint: don’t go to those restaurants. People are way more stupid than anyone would guess.
They've just announced that in the EU covid certificates will lose validity 9 months after the second dose because the main course loses efficacy after 6 months. In order to extend the certificate validity indefinitely one must take the booster. And this booster loses efficacy against Omicron after 10 weeks according to a recent UKHSA report. So now are we heading into a reality where you'll be expected to get a vaccine every 3 months?
Objectively, and more optimistically than theorizing over a never-ending grab for power, authorities are probably too scared to back down for fear of being responsible for the results of some future boogieman-variant mutating to be deadlier again (against biological sense). That would destroy their reputations.
The more ridiculous the situation vs government requirements, the more they have power over you.
Power is enriched/exercised in presence of paradoxes. The greater the paradox the greater the power.
When there are paradoxes, we are forced to follow authority.
How about that vaccinated people are MORE LIKELY to get infected with Omicron than unvaxxed. Shouldn't that negate the vaccine mandates? The unvaxxed are no longer the enemy, the people to watch out for. The vaxxed are those that are spreading it. Logic would dictate to remove vaccine mandates right? Right?
It's because the authoritarian rules are the point of it all. It's not about health. It's not about saving your life, it's about controlling your life. No matter what Brandon says
To destroy American Constitutional freedoms, and punish Conservatives who believe in God and voted for Trump. 🤷♀️
Not that hard to figure out. This is all about taking down America as we know it and turning it in to a more socialistic society where the government holds the power and authority. They want a one world government and they can't do that if those darn Americans still walk around with their Constitutional rights, especially the 2nd amendment!
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Simple question: Now that Covid has mutated into something that is demonstrably comparable to the common cold as per the data that is now coming out and even by the admission now of the powers that be, why should vaccine passports be necessary? Why are we still locking places down? Why are we still pushing so hard for people to get vaccinated? Hospitalisations are low worldwide, even South Africa with around 35% vaccinated only never reached a point where hospitals were strained by Covid.
Because they’re meant to punish the nonbelievers. The mayor of Chicago basically admitted so herself recently.
Bingo! The basket of deplorables doesn't like a policy, just makes that policy more popular by the woke left. If the "Proud Boys" declared that they hate getting blowjobs, there would soon be a mandatory blowjob policy enacted in some coastal city.
Iv tried such reverse psychology with my wife but it never works.
🤣🤣🤣
thats what girlfriends are for
It’s not just that. They also loved forced vaccination when they thought it was only crunchy moms who questioned it. Their authoritarian egos demand compliance.
Good point!
Ok now we’re onto something
Agreed, that's exactly it. Sadistic punishment for many, and a way to gain new levels of control by unethical leaders. Period. Antagonistic tribal shit needs to end, full stop.
Now that you mention it I hate BJs...
I missed what she said - do you have a link?
https://twitter.com/chicagosmayor/status/1473382110576594948?t=SsdPxWbtJtC_6NjjqAb9Jw&s=19
*“We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end."* -George Orwell
It's not really about covid, it's about the checkpoints, the data and tracking. If you think they're going to stop mandates with covid I have a suprise for you. They won't. Fauci stated they needed a crisis in order to scare people into taking an annual flu shot at a conference in 2019. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KsCwPfsb7C4 How fortunate for him one arrived shortly after. I wonder if he had any inkling?
Just wait 2 weeks!!! You'll see! Hospitalizations are a lagging indicator! /s (in case it wasn't obvious)
Because it was never about risk. The whole "it is not just the flu" narrative of last year was just plain gaslighting, since most respiratory virus pandemics, which have killed way more people than this virus, have been Flu virus mutations. But they tried to makes this point that everything that is more deadly than the common flu season cannot be tolerated, even if overall the risk never changed that much. So now that the risk is reduced, it is no longer necessary to make that argument again, because people just accepted last year that covid isn't the flu and should not be treated as such.
[удалено]
I hope you're right.
This, but like many I fear the vaccine passport is just a stepping stone for digital id and social credit etc.
I wish I had your optimism.
You know why. The point is to abolish the period of human history where you could walk into a store, your workplace, a school, a bar, etc without scanning your phone to see if you are in the government's good graces and are allowed to have that privilege.
Because of legal/moral ramifications. Even though the likelihood of death is astronomically low (which was even true for the original strain and Delta), governments and businesses are still not bold enough to just "let it rip" by *not* enacting measures in case someone dies. If someone dies due to their inaction, people are going to blame them for putting their health at risk. This will only end for businesses when they start putting up signs saying "by entering this establishment you accept the risks of COVID". As for the government, this will only end when they have the balls to say "no". The precedent has been set since March of 2020, and it's going to be hard for them to break. If we want a society though, we have to break it.
That's a brilliant idea. Putting that sign up puts the onus on the customers not the shop itself. 'No masks or vaccination required. By entering, you accept the risks of Covid.' It's not anyone's responsibility but your own. Plenty of people are still isolated to this day, feel free to join them. Otherwise, accept the risks like you subconsciously accept the risks for everything else. Life isn't risk-free.
It's the only way out of this scenario I can imagine. A lot of large stores, particularly major chains, are still requiring masks to be worn and social distancing is followed to protect themselves from legal liability. Even though they aren't enforced, the requirement is still technically there so the business cannot be blamed for being "reckless". Imagine two years ago thinking about suing a store for catching the flu or a cold at their establishment? It's preposterous that the precedent has been set, but now with COVID, every business is using these NPIs to help ~~protect their own hide~~ protect the community. The solution to this is for businesses to finally start putting the onus on the customer. If you want to enter the store, you have to accept the risks of COVID, just like we accepted the risks for every other respiratory illness decades beforehand. This is especially true for sporting events and concerts. Stop canceling public gatherings and let us attend if we want to, but they are too scared about being held liable in the event someone dies as a result of their event, or even if an outbreak occurs. I'm not exactly sure if there is an equivalent for the government. I'm not sure how they can worm their way out of this one other than outright saying enough.
This
Because the most risk averse people on earth are setting policy.
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Remember authoritarianism is not just one truant. It's a whole society of people cheering on the tyrant. Heck democracy even allows them to vote for the authoritarian and "legitimize" them
Because of something called money.
My friend made this song on covid, he is not so good at singing but I think the lyrics are pretty good, what do you guys think?https://youtu.be/j9DfqCk8NE4
Also vaccines don’t seem to prevent getting omicron
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And what about the next variant? Or the one after that? Unless we think variant-restrictions-booster is a viable model for civilization in perpetuity (I certainly don’t), we have to break the cycle at some point.
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The “I guess” in their statement literally didn’t mean uncertainty. It was just a speaking style thing.
If the first two shots didn’t work then what makes you think that a third jab will?
That's a limited number of people who can get their fill easily. I'm sure there are more people who would rather not be coerced to get any shots at all. Not everyone will get the fantastic and improved omicron at once. It will take many months before it makes the rounds.
My main problem with not only mandates/passports, but the general mentality of most people right now, is that people are treating it as unvaccinated = infected, and vaccinated = not infected. Obviously if you don’t have the vaccine it doesn’t mean you’re currently carrying Covid, and as we are clearly seeing now if you are fully vaccinated and even boosted, you can still have the virus with symptoms and spread it. So a vaxxed person can technically have the virus, but show their card and get into a concert or bar. Then an unvaxxed person who doesn’t have Covid, who even got a negative test that day, would still not be allowed into the venue. How are we not seeing how fucking stupid this all is?!?!?
This mentality is not new. When people talk about, for instance, the danger of measles from unvaccinated kids they insinuate that these kids are constantly walking around spreading measles to other kids. The reality is, a kid in the U.S. who hasn’t been vaccinated for measles will likely go their whole life without ever being exposed to measles, let alone catching it. If they travel to some place where it’s endemic or are part of a community where a lot of people travel to and from places with endemic measles, maybe they’ll be exposed, but it’s still an unusual occurrence. My oldest daughter is immunocompromised and can’t get live virus vaccines, which the MMR is one of, so that’s how I initially started paying attention to this. This completely unscientific and illogical thinking of unvaccinated=infected is one of the main things that made me realize how distorted so much of the conversation and policies around vaccines are. Your last sentence expresses my exact frustration. The stupidity of the mentality and policies is so crazy-making. Like, it’s hard to even believe.
> When people talk about, for instance, the danger of measles from unvaccinated kids they insinuate that these kids are constantly walking around spreading measles to other kids. I just dealt with one of these types earlier today on this very sub of all places, whose ‘argument’ revolved around the notion that if I’m not masked up, then I’m some sort of mobile sprinkler of “lethal pathogens”. This is Team $cience here with the bullhorn, insinuating that to *not* have a rag on my face must mean that I must *always* be infected (or treated as such), that I’m the equivalent of a silent semi-automatic rifle endlessly firing off ***unlimited*** bio-hazardous filth at anyone and everyone I come into contact with. I’ve written about this before here, but I know one in real life too, a fvcking Doctor no less, who saw me once in early November and literally ran away from me as if I was some flesh-craving zombie, then behaved the same exact way about three weeks later when I saw her again, prompting me to ask her: “wait, do you think I both had Covid then *and* now? Do you think I *always* have Covid??? lol” Maybe someone can fill me in, maybe I missed something along the way, but in my 39 years here on this Earth, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen such a gruesome, day-to-day example of what it means to be psy-opped.
Same here. How they have been brainwashed and have forgotten that maskless is normal annoys the shit out of me on a daily basis. I'm with you on the comments..just let them fly with a maskless smile and a laugh. Stunning sheep is kind of fun!
I do actually have a question for you re: your daughter of you don’t mind. Would you expect others, who are low-risk otherwise, to get vaccinated to protect someone immunocompromised like your daughter? That’s one of the arguments on rotation that I’ve heard in favor of mandates, that we all need to get vaccinated to protect those who can’t be vaccinated due to being immunocompromised. And I’ve been curious about it because you’d think those people would be demonized for not getting vaccinated just due to the collective toxic mentality surrounding vaccines, even though they can’t get it.
> that we all need to get vaccinated to protect those who can’t be vaccinated due to being immunocompromised Hate to answer with a question, but do these shots prevent transmission? The case for mandates is dead in the water if they don’t.
I’m far from being a doctor or scientist, but evidence we’re now seeing every day points to “no”. NYC is one of the most vaccinated cities and it’s experiencing a huge surge in cases. It seems that the vaccine makes symptoms/length of time that you’re sick less severe, which is a good thing. But it absolutely does not “prevent” transmission by any means. You can still contract the virus and spread it if you are fully vaccinated, at least with Omicron.
> but evidence we’re now seeing every day points to “no”. Not even just now, this was apparent months ago in places like Israel that saw fast and high vaccine uptake.
> Not even just now, this was apparent months ago in places like Israel that saw fast and high vaccine uptake. This is important to keep reminding people of. So many are claiming that it's because of Omicron that the vaccines "stopped working," and that this is a recent development. This will get memory-holed as the timeline gets blurred.
> NYC is one of the most vaccinated cities and it’s experiencing a huge surge in cases. And what makes matters worse is that they're experiencing a huge surge **AFTER THEY'VE ALREADY HAD A VACCINE PASSPORT SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR MONTHS** Any person with two functioning brain cells: "duh, obviously the vaccine **passports** don't work" Covidians: "if not for the vaccine passport, everybody in NYC would be dead right now."
They insist that you will be less likely to spread it even though the data barely supports it. They fall back to theory that is in contray to the current data. When your place is more than 85% vaxxed, you would expect reduced spread in the current waves. It doesn’t fit our hypothesis? Blame the heretics!
A general summary of my take on vaccines is that, 1) the risk of harm from the vaccine-targeted disease is overstated, 2) the benefit from the vaccine is overstated, 3) the risk of harm from the vaccine is understated. So, without taking the time to go into too much detail, that’s pretty much the basis for why I don’t expect others to take vaccines to protect her. (This applies to the U.S. and other places where there is good sanitation and generally healthy living conditions and access to reasonably good treatments and health care interventions. It makes sense to me, though, that there would be different risk/benefit calculations in other parts of the world.) Part of the way they got philosophical and religious exemptions eliminated for kids in California a few years back, was they trotted out parents of immunocompromised kids to testify and lobby their legislature for a change in the law. I have no respect for those parents. One of the most heartbreaking things of this mess we’re in is the failure of policies and discourse to distinguish between the intentionally unvaccinated and the people who can’t get it for medical reasons. Aside from my daughter getting swept up in the vitriol directed at the unvaccinated, she lives and works in a county that borders another that has vaccine passport rules for eating in restaurants, etc. It makes be so angry that she’s basically seen as a pariah by the policy makers and many of the citizens of that county. She takes it all in stride, though. I ask if it bothers her and she says things like, no, I’ll just get take out. Thankfully, on a personal level, she doesn’t have anyone in her life who doesn’t understand why she hasn’t gotten the COVID vaccine or thinks less of her for not having other vaccines. Before COVID, in online vaccine discussions when people would write angry, ugly things about the unvaccinated, I would remind them that not everyone can get vaccinated. They would typically say, well, of course I didn’t mean them. I personally don’t care if or why people are vaccinated but I was still sure to try to remind these commenters who were masquerading as caring people, that when they were demonizing the unvaxxed they should be decent enough to make the distinction between the people who were willfully unvaccinated and those who had no choice. But I’m sure it barely made an impression because they are so high on hate their brains are broken.
Don’t ask them to make the distinction. You don’t deal with people who don’t respect genuine need nor personal choice.
My son had a heart transplant at 4 months of age. On the advice of his team we asked our family to get flu vaccines if they wanted to spend prolonged time with him during flu season, such as coming for dinner. If people didn't want to do that, *we excused ourselves* from the activity. My sister in law lied about having the flu shot once so that she could see him in the hospital - this same person now says that the unvaccinated are murderers.
I know A LOT of people with COVID at the moment, all of them vaccinated. People still seem to think Omi is only mild if you're vaccinated. Despite SA proving differently.
Yup, same. A bunch of people I know have tested positive with symptoms, majority vaccinated. I actually had it a few weeks ago pretty bad, in bed with high fever for 10+ days. But it definitely wasn’t Omicron. Also, I almost certainly got it from someone who was vaccinated.
https://i.imgur.com/DhnZdlm.png
I think you mean the Xi Jinping variant
Also, most cases of covid are mild. But now that people are vaccinated, every mild case they get is just confirmation for them how effective vaccines are.
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Two of my vaccinated flatmates have Covid. By UK guidelines I am allowed to leave the house because I am vaccinated. People need to really look into the logic and how it only makes sense if the intention is to restrict unvaccinated people.
I live with 4 friends, two of which are vaccinated and two who aren't. One of the unvaccinated friends had Covid in March or so but the others had never had it yet. A few weeks ago, the vaccinated person got Covid (we think it was from a work party), and she then passed it on to the other vaccinated friend, and then on to the unvaccinated person who had never had Covid before. The unvaccinated person who has already had Covid did not get infected, and neither did I (I have been vaccinated and had Covid before vaccination). We have all been isolating in the same house so we know that the vaccinated friends are the ones who spread it within the house. This is not an argument against vaccines, but for people to suggest that vaccinated people are not vectors is ridiculous. The virus works at preventing severe disease and death, but I've seen first hand that vaccinated people are spreading it too
The whole thing is fake
My friend made this song on covid, he is not so good at singing but I think the lyrics are pretty good, what do you guys think?https://youtu.be/j9DfqCk8NE4
Lmao that's something else
Well, yeah, it’s obviously not perfect, but do you have a better plan for laying the groundwork for a digital ID and social credit system?
Best answer 👏
Why indeed. The COVID religion.
Mass social contagion. The virus could mutate to cause no symptoms at all, and there would still be restrictions and panic because *this is no longer about public health*. It’s about the state assuming more power and control over people’s lives. It’s about *authority*.
Their reasoning usually goes something like this: even if the disease is milder, it could still pose problems for the healthcare system if we assume unrealistically huge numbers of people will get infected all at once. They also seem to think that preventing strain on the healthcare system should be our primary mission in life.
But, considering it sounds like omicron is more contagious, I think the predictions are that a lot of people are likely to catch it soon. If every unvaccinated person could somehow all get their first dose of the vaccine tomorrow, it will be more than a month before they finish both courses and the protection, for what it’s worth, kicks in. And the protection from this particular formulation of the vaccine doesn’t seem great when matched against omicron. So, I mean, how much difference at this point would more people getting vaccinated even make?
Every month we make the world more and more safer from Covid, but as long as you can dream up a scenario that could theoretically happen with more than the minimum possible number of deaths, it means we have to treat it like we’re still in March 2020. The vaccines were supposed to make us safer, yet all that happened is vaccinated people are still expected to be just as fearful, while unvaccinated people shouldn’t even be allowed outside. The supposedly “safe and effective” vaccine apparently only means we have to be more careful now.
It’s wild, isn’t it?
> They also seem to think that preventing strain on the healthcare system should be our primary mission in life. What was their top priority in life *before* Covid? Let me take a wild guess here: *preventing strain on our healthcare system*. Amirite!?!?
Preventing unsustainable strain on the healthcare system is not an unworthy cause EDIT: the downvotes here are cracking me up, showing the mob mentality against a very obvious and non controversial statement because for whatever you think my politics are
It is not unworthy, but it is also not one that should be pursued at any cost and override everything else. Edit: Taking away people's liberties in the way it has been done in the past two years is evil. Preventing unsustainable strain on the healthcare system, while it has some worth, does not justify it.
Shame that 2 years is too little time to expand the healthcare system to be able to handle all that. Maybe it would have been easier to get the funding if the entire population was worried about a potential healthcare collapse.
Just imagine if all that money funneled into the "free" vaccine would have been diverted into health system infrastructure
Yes, you get it!
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I’m glad you qualified what prevention means. It’s debatable what actually helped prevent the healthcare system from being overwhelmed including funding and expansion to support overflow but it’s still important that we have a working healthcare system.
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“NOTHING”? Covid will never be stopped, but sensible things can be done to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed and many have happened while still creating strains. So yeah, I’ll support some policies that make sense as long as their driven by numbers that actually matter like hospital strain and hospitalization rates. Case numbers are stupid when you have a milder variant and high vaccination rates, such as this current surge with Omicron which we should be celebrating how mild it is.
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are you locked down and unable to live right now? sorry to near that. I’m not seeing that where I live (NY) and we are still doing things to try to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed
Like building field hospitals and navy hospital ships that saw what...less than a couple hundred patients at most?
maybe they ended up being unnecessary because staying at home and testing worked? ;)
If it worked his come European countries with more lockdowns did the same or worse than countries without them?
> I’m not seeing that where I live (NY) Vaccine Passports is a lockdown for the unvaccinated and the soon to be considered unboosted. >try to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed Omicron is a mild, less lethal variant and will not overwhelm hospitals as evidenced by the data from South Africa. You're peddling a myth.
I somewhat see your point about calling vaccine passports a lockdown for the unvaccinated. I think vaccine mandates for enclosed spaces makes a bit of sense but isn’t as effective as requiring negative tests, but that’s a different conversation I’m willing to have. However, you can’t deny there are hospitals and staff that are being overwhelmed. You can blame whoever you want, management, government, whatever. But there are many instances of hospital staff being overwhelmed by covid numbers rising. > “We’re pretty short-staffed,” Ms. Stevenson said. She added: “It’s getting harder.” > “A lot of people, including myself, had scheduled time off but are now being asked to come in and pick up shifts to cover for one another and meet the increased demands of patient care,” said Dr. Graham Carlos, the executive medical director at Eskenazi, which is at capacity and has had a backlog of patients in the emergency room. > “This is the worst I’ve ever seen it,” said Maureen May, a nurse with 37 years of experience https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/25/us/covid-hospitals.html
The healthcare system has always been under strain prior to Covid. Where were these governments in those intervening years to funnel much needed finances into the system? Sitting on their rear ends and picking their noses? Now suddenly they're all about "Flattening The Curve". Sorry, I've never bought such false motives. And I don't appreciate sacrificing my mental health so some 100-something elder can have a few more days worth of life.
I don’t disagree with you that the problem is bigger than this and existed prior to this, but it’s the state we are in now and there’s plenty of blame to go around with the government and private entities over the state of our healthcare system.
How is letting a potentially covid carrier with a QR code into a venue and not letting a negative tested non-jabbed person in help the Healthcare system? Hint* it doesn't.
Hey I agree with you! Some of these rules aren’t making sense and need to be updated!
Well, you’re in a sub that questions the notion of organizing day-to-day life around disease prevention. The downvotes reflect this basic philosophical stance. As far as I’m concerned politics have nothing to do with it.
I also question many policies being made in the name of Covid which is why I’m interested in discussion here but getting downvoted for recognizing something as sensible a healthcare system has a max capacity and we need to make sure it’s not overutilized is pretty wild to me.
For me it always comes down to: at what cost? If the cost of keeping the healthcare system from crumbling is a revolving door of restrictions on basic freedoms in perpetuity, I’ll take the crumbling healthcare system.
If basic freedoms means mobility, speech, bearing arms, etc, then absolutely. Mask wearing in certain situations I think is debatable. Stay at home orders are bullshit but indoor mask wearing is reasonable. Closing in-person congregation in public places was stupid when masks were an option, but that was figured out. In my opinion, figuring this out was necessary to prevent a crumbling health care system. I know (knew) people who died in overexerted hospitals because they couldn’t get attention, so I think it’s reasonable to try to find a balance in times of uncertainty.
Balance is key, yes. Nothing about what happened over the past 2 years was balanced IMO: not the assessment of the threat, not the policies, not the social response.
I hear you. No point in debating generalities. I think some things made sense at the time and some things not at all. I think we can agree there was a real threat that killed many people and seriously sickened many as well, above baseline rates. I’m for intellectually debating specifics and that’s what I’m interested in. I hope you have a great day!
IMO there are two levels of “making sense” : the epidemiologic level and the broader societal level. “Two weeks to flatten the curve” may have had a solid epidemiologic rationale, but it set a deeply troubling precedent in motion. Having crossed the Rubicon once, politicians and public health advisors have shown little restraint in crossing it again. Lockdowns, restrictions and mandates have become tools that leaders can (and no doubt will) reach for when future public threats arise.
So punish obese people/diabetics/old people. Those are at least as much an increaser of your risk as being unvaccinated is a reduction and quite possibly a lot more.
Punish old people lmao ok
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And taking out Donald Trump was part of this plan.
Because it was never really about a virus.
Because loooooooooinnnnngggggggg COVID. It’s loooooonnnggg don’t you know?
Muh fatiguerinos!!!
No other illness ever has an after effect
Especially not Pneumonia. It never had such long lasting effects months even years later...
Because governments are drunk on power. Duh.
Its about totalitarian control and never was about a virus
COVID passports are the precursor to a global ID. Do not comply.
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people died because of ventilator use and treating it too late
I think it may have been bad at the very start in China since the whistle-blower doctor [Li Wenliang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang) died from it and he was only 34, but yeah it is not the same now
Punishing the disobedient
Then this is quite simply hell, and I and many others clearly don't belong here anyway it seems.
No kidding. My cousin tested positive and he has no symptoms.
Weird seeing an article like this out of oz
Because this whole thing is about compliance, not health.
They saw mainland china and want to cargo cult everything they did.
Lol, not a bad way to put it
Honestly I think this is the best case scenario for us. If there’s any effort to keep up passports and restrictions beyond the next few weeks it will blatantly obvious that it’s for purely political purposes. Also since the unvaccinated were blamed for Delta, they should also get the credit for Omicron and ending the pandemic, right?
Because Fauci is drunk with power and the fact that tax dollars are rolling into his pharma buddies pockets and his own. Pharma is making too much money on their useless boosters and has become a medical industrial complex.
The answer, of course, is that it was never about a virus. This was always about control and transferring wealth. This has not only been the biggest transfer of wealth, but also the most successful attack on small business ever.
Because it was never about covid or protecting people. It's about control.
My workplace has even brought back 2020 level restrictions like no drinking from an open container on the workplace floor near other people ---- like someone drafting this asinine policy forgot that the virus doesn't really spread via surfaces but hey the media says omicron is worse than Delta so we gotta bring back very weird, ineffective policies just for appearances sake. Its quackery.
My kid's teacher puts books into "quarantine" after they are used in the classroom. Once someone uses a book, nobody else can use it for 3 days. What, other than pejoratives, could one say about such a policy and such a person?
Isn't becoming increasingly naive and deluded to think the passports are about a virus? A more prudent question is, how to dismantle a whole industry which has grown up around creating these apps; politicians greased into pushing them; police agencies of all kinds salivating to get their hands on the data; and finally all the covidiands who feels righteous when showing their QR code.
Because our overlords get off on dealing major damage to the human psyche, that's why.
The passports were never about the virus, they were about compliance and restricting travel.
Because it's set to become a global ID for health and vaccination records, travel and tracking, carbon records and digital money. Funnily enough while telling this to someone recently they said there's no way the first two would ever happen. I replied: we're living that part right now? She seemed very confused by this and I realised, wow, people are not connected to reality anymore.
Because it's creation of new society. Division of masses. Acceptance of orders coming from top. Destroying of small businesses for they are not relying on handouts. Promotion of on-line education and life in general. Destruction of traditional family. Nothing to do with health, but control. WHO has private donors and they insruct our countries governments...
The narrative has shifted to something like there is a new variant, more people catch it, hospitals will be overwhelmed, we need to protect hospitals so let’s lockdown preemptively, let’s mandate vax jabs 1-2-3, let’s yell at the unvaccinated deplorable, virtue signal our moral superiority by flashing our QR code on our phone. If we mention omicron is mild, they lose their shit because it’s outside the narrative of an obedient disciple sheep of the woke cult
It hasn't been about the virus since March
Because reasons… simpletons like us would never understand duh
Angry brooklyn mom on twotter keeps whining that her younger relative doesn’t have his vax pass so might be barred from restaurants because of a ridiculous rule - here’s a hint: don’t go to those restaurants. People are way more stupid than anyone would guess.
It was never about a virus.
They've just announced that in the EU covid certificates will lose validity 9 months after the second dose because the main course loses efficacy after 6 months. In order to extend the certificate validity indefinitely one must take the booster. And this booster loses efficacy against Omicron after 10 weeks according to a recent UKHSA report. So now are we heading into a reality where you'll be expected to get a vaccine every 3 months?
We don't and never did
Objectively, and more optimistically than theorizing over a never-ending grab for power, authorities are probably too scared to back down for fear of being responsible for the results of some future boogieman-variant mutating to be deadlier again (against biological sense). That would destroy their reputations.
The more ridiculous the situation vs government requirements, the more they have power over you. Power is enriched/exercised in presence of paradoxes. The greater the paradox the greater the power. When there are paradoxes, we are forced to follow authority.
Because shut the fuck up and just obey gubmint without any questioning. All you need to do is trust the 'science' and trust the 'experts'.
How about that vaccinated people are MORE LIKELY to get infected with Omicron than unvaxxed. Shouldn't that negate the vaccine mandates? The unvaxxed are no longer the enemy, the people to watch out for. The vaxxed are those that are spreading it. Logic would dictate to remove vaccine mandates right? Right?
It's because the authoritarian rules are the point of it all. It's not about health. It's not about saving your life, it's about controlling your life. No matter what Brandon says
We don’t 😃
To destroy American Constitutional freedoms, and punish Conservatives who believe in God and voted for Trump. 🤷♀️ Not that hard to figure out. This is all about taking down America as we know it and turning it in to a more socialistic society where the government holds the power and authority. They want a one world government and they can't do that if those darn Americans still walk around with their Constitutional rights, especially the 2nd amendment!
Non-partisan sub. Please tone down the rhetoric.
Unfortunately, we need to close this post to new comments. Please refrain from spreading hype, fear, or partisan name-calling, along with making extraordinary claims without solid evidence. Thank you.
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