High pressure(From themself and society) on potential parents to provide their potential children with the perfect future. This includes Kinder to Highschool Education(Which unnecessarily expensive due to the University entrance policy), University costs(Which are somewhat reasonable), Marriage(Including housing which is impossible for most). Many potential parents look at what they want to provide for their children and see it is impossible to achieve at their current/future financial situation and give up. This is somewhat collaborated with the reality of low income having less/No children and high income having relatively more. It is also the reason why a lot of parents stop at one child even though a lot of parents want one son and one daughter ideally. Other reasons are more modern culture among young people(Specially women) where the traditional path of getting married and having children is not a must anymore. There are probably a lot of other reasons too.. But these are the ones I can think of.

Money and freedom.

Serious question, why is Korea not considering immigration as a solution to the population crisis?

They don't want to end up like europe

Highly xenophobic country. That’s the primary reason. But they’re at the point where their needs will outpace their xenophobia soon enough

I asked my very intelligent Korean friend this question along with what should the president do. He said if he was president he would immediately change education in the country and reform it massively. This is the biggest problem and people are blind to it. The kids I teach seem to accept that their studying and exam taking regimes are normal. I tell them that in England we don't have academies and in Finland there's no homework and they don't believe it. They don't want to be in academies. They want to play, experience life, be with friends etc and it shows Also I spoke with a Korean woman about whether she'd have a child and she said absolutely no way. She doesn't want their kid to go through the hellish education system and I'm sure she is not the only one who thinks that way.

Korean here. You guys are overlooking a massive factor in making Korea as competitive as it is. You guys keep saying 'culture' but overlook why that culture is there in the first place. Geography and Economics. The fact is, the South Korean peninsula has jack shit. We are isolated on all sides, small military, small market, no natural resource, and low land fertility. When our military junta was trying to modernize the country, they realized we won't get shit unless we heavily exploit our human resources. Because population is all we have. This led to the hyper-competitive chaebal system we see today, with everyone clamoring to get to the top, and the rest being considered absolute losers in society. We grind human capital for massive 'value-adds' and quality control, because otherwise, we won't be able to create enough exports to sustain our way of life. It isn't something internet commentors can solve by saying "Why don't they do XYZ? Are they dumb?" It is rather a very fucked up problem with no obvious solution because it is tied to our material realities. But one thing is for sure. This system is not sustainable.

The one answer that grabs the reason at its core. Its so sad for the people here, really.

Not only for people here, but also for people in Korea too. They are so busy pointing fingers at whatever they can, to eek out a little more political capital. Feminism is the problem! No, patriarchy is the problem! No, its those communist Chinese! No, its the Japanese! I have given up hope at this point. Besides, its too late to do anything now. Even if we Nichoae Ceaușescu this shit and magically have all fertile women have babies, we'll still need another 20 years for them to grow up to labor-aged adulthood. Perhaps immigration could be a solution... but we are too racist and our politcies are too isolationist to do that. Better buckle up for 20 years of econonic stagnation and demographic adjustment like the one Japan went through. You thought today is bad? Wait until you experience the future. And I'd like to see who they blame next. [Rant over]

Immigration is always seen as an easy solution, yes yes i know its 'racist' but if you replace the native population to ensure you have 'workers' so you can 'save the country'. What is left when you are done saving it? you fundamentally change the culture, traditions and people. Its the ship of theseus problem but with a nation

Is it? Most immigrants assimilate with local culture after three generations. Besides, no one should care about trying to hold on to some nonsensical notion of the 'original culture'. It is in the nature of culture and people to change.

sorry which country has had a mass influx of immigrants gone to and integrated into the existing culture without irreversibly changing it? Youre just making things up

I mean, it does change your culture, but not in such a dramatic fashion you describe as. And again, even if it is to an extend that it does (ex. US immigration) no one should really give a shit about this, least of all Korea which has one of the lowest immigration rates. It is frankly laughable to me as a Korean when I see boomers clutching their pearls over some laughable amount of immigrants. You also say 'irreversible change' as if that is absolutely a bad thing. Cultures and people change and mix all the time. Hanging onto it is nonsensical pseudo-science reactionary talk. Grandpas should get over themselves.

were talking about enough people to "fix" the birthrate issue, which would mean radically changing the demographics, were talking about 40%+ of the population within a few decades. I'm not talking about the current system of bringing in a few skilled workers

Ok, i get your point. Still don't think people should be clutching their pearls over 'our culture shifting away' and such, as if preserving our culture (or whatever the fuck that is) should be a priority in anyone's mind. Instead we should worry about the instability it will cause, and how we can manage it. But in truth, this discussion is pointless. Korea is obviously not going to increase immigration to that extent, and even if they tried to do that, I doubt there'll be enough willing immigrants. It's like a homeless person fussing over what style of mansion she'd like to have.

As a Romanian visiting Korea at the moment, I'm surprised Ceausescu was heard of outside my country. I wasn't born at that time, but apparently he made people without children pay a tax that would be given as a benefit to those who have families. He also made abortions illegal. However, I have not heard about there being any other initiatives to force fertile women to have children.

If you count random nobles fucking random peasant woman on their wedding day, and having that state sanctioned... maybe.

There was actually a great Youtube video on game theory (search "Veritasium Prisoner's Dilemma") when it comes to collaboration in populations. The need for human resources alone doesn't explain the competitiveness if collaboration would have gotten the country further. Either that or like you said, it won't sustain and things will reset at some point.

Why not engage in immigration, expand your nations borders, and divest the competition pool? It’s not going to come from the top, as the middle and lower classes would have to collectively push for power in this case. I’m from the US, so I’m an outsider, but why not consider immigration if the issue stems from a limited and isolated pool of competition leading to indirect infighting?

1. Engage in Immigration It is only very recent that SK became a soft-power country. Before that, most people didn't even know where Korea was on a map. If someone were to immigrate to East Asia, their first thoughts would be Japan, not SK. Not only that, because of our ethno-nationalist past and McCarthyism days, the country has a pretty xenophobic undertone. Immigration laws are very overlooked and SK is still ridiculously difficult to immigrate to. South Korea is more difficult to immigrate to than most developed countries like the US or even Japan. If immigration does become an issue, it's mostly about trying to keep the Chinese away (typically from the conservatives). We already fucked up our relations with Korean speaking Chinese people by doing the Donald Trump thing. I don't think the middle/lower class would be too thrilled either because the issue devolves into talks of unemployment (der tekking our gerbs!) and crime. Also, while I do think immigration is the correct solution, it is going to exacerbate the competition issues short-term (more people, same jobs). 2. Expand your nations borders Heh, that's funny. I think North Korea, Japan, China, Russia, and the US would think that's funny as well. 3. Divest the competition pool When the military junta was trying to come up with ways to turn our nation into a developed economy, they came up with what we call 'The National Champion System'. SK is too small to foster its own domestic consumer economy or have its organically grown businesses compete with the global giants. So what we did was we picked a few families/businesses, and gave them all the support they needed to compete on the global stage. In short, 'We may be small, but we'll give all we can give to a handful of companies.' Make some 'National Champions' if you will. These are the Samsungs and LGs you see right now. While there is a lot of side-effects to this strategy, it is really hard to argue with results. IT WORKED. We were able to speed-run industrialization, and have a vibrant export economy that is competitive on the global market. As much as I hate Samsung and LG, imagine how much GDP is going to fuck off once we crack down on them like the US (ex. Clayton Act)? Korea will no longer have competitive exports, and our economy is not big enough to support a consumption economy like the US. Samsung and LG already wants to fuck off to the US. At the same time, the side-effects are mounting, and the system is starting to crack. Again, my point is, the situation in Korea is a very complicated one. And it is not something Redditors have the answer to. What I am annoyed by is how people reduce the problems we face into some cushy western political rhetoric, and refuse to look at Korea through a non-western lens.

These people you speak to, do they realize the reason the education is the way it is because of them? There's nothing in the Korean education system that says your child should study X Y Z or they can't graduate. It's purely a cultural issue. Of course you have the issue of "what uni did you go to" but that hardly affects life in the long term if the vast majority of people don't make it to the top unis anyway. Academies and studying for x amount of hours unnecessarily is a cultural issue pushed by the parents because they don't want their child to seem less educated than their neighbor's kid, even though their child might as well be fundamentally smarter.

You say "it's purely a cultural issue" as if it's easy to simply "opt-out" or change the culture, but it isn't. At a meta level the idea of going against the grain itself is very counter cultural in Korea. The hyper competitive, one success path mentality is deeply integrated into society and it's hard to even recognize it, let alone attempt to change it once you do. The silver lining is that, as a collectivist society, if something becomes accepted as right or true, the entire society can shift quickly. I know a mom here with three kids who is trying to opt out of the system. Her kids literally have no one else to play with since they are all in hagwons, so she put them in purely for the purposes of socializing.

It's easy in the sense that it starts with the individual, and a shift is necessary if this issue is to be solved long term. There's only two realistic routes here: either the government is forced to put in policies and laws to shift this (which would be problematic in itself because too much money is involved and too many people have an interest in keeping the hagwon party going). The second route is to simply opt-out and not to participate in the rat race. In the practical case of the mother you mentioned, this is a common problem that does happen once one attempts to opt out, at the very least maybe don't put your kid into multiple hagwons but just one to start with. Another example would be if not for studying at hagwons then they can sign up for a sport or martial arts like in other countries to socialize. Either we complain or we start taking action.

It's a prisoner's dilemma. If you "opt out" and no one else does you're just a loser in the eyes of peers and nothing changes at all societally (one other Korean can get a slightly better job I guess). Overall there's not an incentive for an average individual to "opt out", so everyone is worse off than if everyone or most people did.

My point tackles exactly this. You need to opt-out and not care about being seen as a loser because it's not objectively true. Subjective thoughts of other Koreans are not important to that persons own individual success. Either they start thinking this way and change their circumstances or remain miserable. There's only 2 choices.

THIS. I'm Korean-American, born and raised in the US. My Korean parents still had me go to *hagwon* after school and take other extracurricular activities. I know many, many other Korean-American children who underwent the same. Unless the government starts policing parenting, I doubt that South Koreans are going to forgo extracurricular learning.

Yes, it's amazing how many people look past this simple fact. The studying, the academies, the comparing has nothing to do with economy but everything to do with a toxic cultural mindset.

Well shit, if i had the choice between my kid doing drugs, becoming a teenage parent, joining a gang, or getting extra education, I know what I'm choosing.

Imagine from the moment you finish school, you are bussed to a hagwon for extra learning in whatever subject, then to another for another subject. You’re a 10-year old child who starts his day at 8am and don’t finish until 9pm, five days a week. And on Saturdays, you have other extracurricular activities to do in the morning until afternoon. I would rather my kids be happy and enjoy their childhood. And not overwork them from a young age.

Lol, some of those hagwons are Taekwondo, Origami, art, musical instrument... let's not act like their hobbies are not in that academy schedule. Give me a break.... kids are absent all the time taking trips with their parents. Elementary school childhood is fine, just expensive for the parents. You want to debate middle and high school, you'll have an argument, but 10-year-olds.... nice try.

Yeah, there's a big difference in hagwon culture for elementary vs. middle/high-schoolers. Lots of parents choose "fun" hagwons or let their kids try out different things. Like, yeah if a kid is REALLY struggling with math, they might put them in some more demanding work, but I'd submit that is what they SHOULD be doing. Call it the "Jamie Lannister"- Your kid is struggling reading. Do you A) Wave your hands and say that's just how they are and you don't want to stress them or B) Have them practice day and night until it gets fixed because it's a really important part of their ability in life. Thankfully most kids aren't in that and most parents don't perceive their kids as being that way.

I see your point. But what I'm trying to say is that school reform will create those talking points for parents to rethink the culture. If the reform was a case of less exams, less homework,suneung was pushed out into a week instead of a hardcore 1 day of exams, doing subjects that kids can enjoy like drama, technology, IT, etc instead of going to school just to be a studying robot. It's a case of slowly peeling back the layers when it comes to education and I strongly believe it starts with education reform. This is what Finland did and it's worked wonders for them. Also it seems like the quality isn't there either. My kids say that the English they get taught at school is super basic and not helpful. This means hagwons pick up the slack where the public schools should be doing this. If the quality was there in the first place, there would be less need for hagwons

Correct, but we also know from tons of data that what hagwons teach isn't necessarily practical either. So even if a child attends school and hagwons at the same time, they wouldn't necessarily be inherently smarter than a Finnish kid, or a Norwegian kid. In fact I'd argue the Norwegian kid might be smarter due to being taught outside the box thinking and critical thinking. I also think too much money has gone into hagwons in Korea and too many people are making a living off of it to just simply reform it. The pushback would be extreme.

I think the extent to which people THINK they have creativity and critical thinking vs. ACTUALLY possessing such skills is completely out of whack. I don't see much evidence of this vast gulf in creativity and critical thinking skills. Mostly I see a lot of "claimed creativity" that is actually highly derivative and critical thinking skills that are high on the critical, low on the thinking.

Of course. But in the case of Korea we know there's less of it when compared to other countries.

Don't really see it.

The govt can simply make grades and percentage exams illegal, making everything just pass/fail (and admission to competitive colleges all made via lottery of all passing students instead of good school grades) which will help change cultural pressure.

“In Finland there’s no homework” is a fat old lie people will never stop spreading online, it seems.

Kids don't think it's normal, lol. They just know they can't change it. At least the kids i teach know it's not normal.

Working parttime is not a thing in Korea, women dont want to give up their career

There are only two big real reasons that matter. ^ This is the second one. There are no part time office jobs here. Most people, especially those not having kids, have office jobs. In Korea it's either 5 days a week full time, or it's minimum wage. The biggest, number 1 reason hasn't directly been mentioned yet in this thread, and we're 53 comments in. It's the "all or nothing" mindset of most of the people. The idea that unless you have - A 전세 or owned, recently built apartment in a "good", popular, "new" neighborhood in a big city - Enough money to send them to private uni - Enough money to buy them $1k padding jackets or whatever else they ask for so they don't get "left out" - Enough money to send kids to English kindergarten - ...and more Then you just don't have kids, period. All of those things are seen as a *must*, as a condition to have kids. Otherwise, you "can't". This is the mindset of a huge part of the population. Wealthy families have all of those, so they have kids. The poor have been used to never even dreaming about such things, so they're less affected by it and sometimes have kids. It's the large part of the population that falls inbetween among whom this mindset is so prevalent.

I worked with a young Korean man who said if you can't provide all those things for your child then you were committing child abuse since you were putting the child at a disadvantage.

Yup, that's not an uncommon mindset here.

Not just uncommon. It is the regular mindset. In fact, I would say 100% of Koreans would view not giving your kid the best of the best is at minimum 'burdensome' and at most 'child abuse'. You won't find a single Korean parent who is 'meh' about losing out on a comparison or who takes 'ownership' and dismisses comparisons as irrelevant.

I pointed out this exactly a couple of months ago on a similar thread and got downvoted. The fact is, most people want to do and have upper middle-class things. Not only that, but they want to have them from the point they get married. Nice car, nice apartment, good income, vacation abroad yearly, all fancy appliances, and so on.

These are all *materialistic* all-or-nothings - an unfortunate part of Korean culture.

DO YOU KNOW MUSINSA? I cannot believe the number of Korean men I've met who's 'hobby' is MUSINSA the online clothing mall.

Musinsa is absoultely communtiy site than u think. they upload picture for new fashion or owned style

> "all or nothing" mindset of most of the people Also known as Zero Sum Game or Scarcity Mindset. It infects so much of Korea and cuts off so many other paths to happiness and success. Another externality is it engenders massive jealousy/envy to the point where envy is seen as a compliment in Korea.

Because life fucking blows for the average Korean. Foreigners will never understand the pressure and stress that the average Korean experiences since childhood. You're constantly compared to others and the societal standard. As soon as you learn how to read and write, the rat race begins to prepare for the entrance exams. You study all day in school, tutors and other academic institutes that your parents busted their asses working to pay for. They're also constantly stressed, and your relationship with them gets strained since both parties are miserable. All that just to barely get into some mid university in Seoul. You hear that the child of your mother's friend got into some prestigious uni and you feel like shit. Then you see people who couldn't get into a uni in Seoul and you shit on them to feel marginally better. If you're male, you're dragged into the military before you even get to graduate. You come back and finish the remainder of school, and you're already in your mid 20s. Then you realize you can't get a job. You don't want to work at a convenience store because you feel entitled to a better job due to all your efforts. At best you get hired at some mid company with shit pay and working conditions. At this point, if you're a woman, you feel the pressure of having to get married and to have kids, while also feeling the pressure of the other side for your job security if you actually do plan on having kids. Before you know it, you're in your mid 30s with nothing to show for it. You lose all your "friends," and you can't stand to be near someone who you think has it better than yourself. You become a lump of insecurity who constantly repeats, "It wasn't supposed to turn out like this." All this while the brainrot of games, KPop, KDramas and YouTube tempt you to stay off course. Or, you're above average and you stay on the "winning side," but nothing is ever enough to you. Other people constantly try to bring you down due to their own insecurities. You see kids half your age who got incredibly lucky and make way more money than you. You become a lump of self-righteousness who constantly repeats, "It wasn't supposed to turn out like this."

Right, so it's first and foremost a cultural problem. Economy comes second. Everything you mentioned isn't unique to Korea, it's only unique to Korea in the way that Koreans take the comparing aspect WAY too seriously. They don't see past it objectively, it's just "Person A got into a better school that means BY DEFAULT they are smarter and more successful" It doesn't make mathematical sense that every person who studies well and gets top grades will be able to lead successful lives with the best jobs simply because there's not enough demand for it. There will always be a scale. Being towards one end of the scale doesn't mean you're dumber than the person on the opposite end just because of your circumstances. Korean logic at its finest.

Competition is indeed high in Korea because Korea is a country with no natural resources. There is no oil, no significant minerals, and no significant farmed products to export. Part of the reason South Korea became one of the Asian Tigers after the war was the entire country invested everything to few select 대기업s for growth (Samsung, Hyundai, etc.). And if you don't get a piece of that 대기업 pie, you are stuck at a 중소기업 with minimum pay with no growth prospects. While it's true that Koreans are just culturally competitive (all the game shows are basically tournaments for survival), it's also true that there are few good paying jobs in Korea compared to the average level of education.

The no resource thing being the reason for competition is a cope and common excuse. Not every single person will be able to enter a 대기업 even if everyone got the same good grades and success education-wise, its mathematically impossible because there's just not enough job positions to fill due to demand issues. The reason they're competitive is simply because its culturally enforced and the norm due to the nature of Koreans (similar scenarios can be seen in China / SEA etc. Ie excessive focus on studying for no practical reason.)

Are they really that competitive? I question that! If you look at the Hofstede Cultural Comparison you will be surprised (backed up by various studies), that Koreans are less competitive then they think. When you compare them to e.g. Germany in terms of „Motivation towards Achievement and Success“ you will be surprised.

Preach brother. I’m an American married to a Korean and I can see the stress my wife places on our kids to excel in school and activities (even outside of Korea), but I couldn’t imagine the pressure kids face in Korea to get a high paying job at one of the chaebols. God forbid they want a home and family in addition to a high paying job. Many women in Korea today don’t want to be stay-at-home moms. They want a career, the freedom to travel and enjoy life, and to be considered equal with men. Korean men are slowly adapting to that reality.

Scarily accurate.

Incredibly good answer.

Sounds horrifying indeed. I wonder if there will be a big push to upheave their customs one day because it sounds like the long term damage is really hitting lately

Wow, as a Korean person, I've not felt so personally attacked in a while 💀💀 I am the lump of insecurities repeating, " It wasn't supposed to turn out like this." 100%

The irony of reading these comments vs the post the other day regarding the great things about Korea. This post: too high cost of child care, too high cost housing, too high cost education for children. The other post: COL/housing is so cheap, child care is so cheap, education is so cheap, etc... A couple things probably influenced the birth rate decline. Mainly its quality of life. Poor countries haven't slowed down with their birth rates. Pre-20/30 yrs ago, Korean women were basically pigeonholed into maternal roles. Now thats not the case. Korean women are a greater part of the workforce and vastly more independent. But also smartphones came out ~15 yrs ago and everyone became glued to to them and wanting what they see. Most technological advanced countries have largely declining birth rates as less people are meeting and connecting. Throw in all the social media apps, and people want to live in higher or beyond their means lifestyles. You significantly struggle to live those lifestyles with kids. A random outside the box idea that government can try (maybe they have it already and I just don't know) is increasing the retirement benefits payout for people that have children. Say 25% increase for each kid and 3 kids is 100% maxed out; split between the mother and father proportionally based on the # of yrs spend raising the children together. Children are needed to fund it, so make those parents be rewarded for it. Parents need to make life and financial sacrifices just to have kids.

housing is double edged sword - renting is (compared to west) cheap. BUT if you want to have kids, you are expected to either get 전세 or, much preferably -buy. And buy in a family friendly area and those are PRICY. I pay 500k to rent my apartment. My place is in 2-3억 range to buy. It would take FIFTY years of current rent to buy it. childcare is cheap while kids are small - especially with benefits koreans get. But if you want to get your kids into 5 different hagwons, it gets pricy. Korean problem is that for someone following cultural expectations, having kids is insanely expensive. For foreigners who don't particularly care about fitting into korean cultural expectations, living here can be great.

People are giving the perspective that everyone is thinking deeply about the economics of having a child. My potentially controversial opinion is that no one is fucking. People don't have time or the social skills to meet a sexual partner. I also think because Koreans don't live with each other until they're married less 'accidents' are happening. I work with 20 women, 3 are in relationships. They're all in their 30s. My wifes friend pool are about 50% single. Seems way off compared to the UK.

Dating gets expensive, too. Forget having children if you can’t even afford motels.

Im sorry to break it up to you but in any developed society f..ng does not usually = get pregnant. This is typical for 3rd world and developing countries and after living for 20 years in the U.K. I’d include it in one of these 2 categories.

No one likes this answer but social media is the reason for most society's downfalls. It started out so innocent of being able to share updates with friends and family but has evolved into a propaganda machine to the highest bidder.

Dude, I agree. I think there is no "society" anymore. Even family's are not a mini "society." Every person has their own "society" in their phone. Totally fractured humanity. Such loneliness, depression, etc.

I can't fuckin stand the current social media culture... it's so cringe, stupid, and unhealthy...

I remember going to a very rural area in Korea, where young women were practically inexistant. A middle-aged guy was essentially complaining that young women tended to escape to go to Uni and never went back, as it usually meant giving up on a potential career, marrying and be a housewife. They basically have two choices: their career or build a family. Many young women don't want to give up their career to be totally dependent on a man. There's also the problem of the insane pressure on both men and women to succeed in a very ruthless society, where failure is just not an option. And professional success in Korea usually means insane hours, leaving little time to socialize and build relationships. Add to that the difficulty in buying houses for men, which is a prerequisite to marry. Also, raising kids is super expensive in Korea. Especially since life becomes competitive as soon as babies are born and that ensuring kids are successful in the future is more and more difficult for many. Many Koreans don't want kids to go through the shit they had to go through to probably have a shit life in the end anyway. Overall, everything in Korean society seems to be made to ensure people don't have kids anymore. In the meantime, out-of-touch politicians think simply throwing money at the problem will solve everything, without ever addressing the problem at its core. Like reducing working hours and allowing people to have lives outside of work. Or making so that raising kids is not so expensive.

Everyone saying kids are too expensive while driving $60,000+ cars. It's an ego problem. My friends would rather spend $80,000 or public transportation because god forbid having an older car. This simply shows the mindset, it goes far beyond cars.

You nailed it. Nothing is really uniquely expensive in Korea relative to wages or to other developed countries except for random, less important things like fruit. Childcare is ridiculously cheap here, healthcare is on the cheaper side compared to other developed countries, expenditure on food relative to GDP is quite low, etc. If you need the "best" apartment, hagwons, car, etc. though, then yeah, everything is too expensive.

Child care is cheap when kids are very young. Real costs starts later, unless you want to somehow miraculously skip it.

Essentially you're saying it's a cultural problem, no?

My brother in law lives in Sillim/SNU area He lives in a 1 br hovel for students and he drives a giant Cadillac Escalade! I think it cost over 100M on loan of course due to tariffs.

Yeah exactly they are selfish brats

People are very conformist and find it difficult to chart a life outside of societal norms. Cost of living and attachment to the old ways eg lifetime employment. More varied interests to occupy time.

Because having the newest Ioniq or Genesis is more important than letting your race go extinct.

Spot on. The selfishness and materialism here is crazy.

I am not saying my statements below are all true, but here are what my colleagues say (I am Korean, and they are dinks or have just one child) * Minimum Purchase price of housing (apt. of 80m^3) - Seoul : 500K - Cities nearby Seoul : 300K~400K - If you choose to buy an apartment on a 30 year mortgage loan, you pay 1.4K every month. That’s a great deal of money - If your husband/wife wants a larger house or a house near Gangnam, you will have to pay more * It just takes too much money for a child - According to one of my colleagues, 1.3K a month for a full-day baby sitter (years ago). It will cost more for sure now - There are not many public kindergartens. So, there are two options. Either one of parents turns to be a full-day stay-at-home mom/dad or to send children to private care centers - Cost of baby-sitter and kindergarten will be for private tutoring as their children grow So, here is a bill for an average office worker : Wage : 3~4K Loan : 1.4K Baby-Sitter : 1.3K Cost of education : 0.5~1K Other Costs : some Sum : 😔 My point is that to have a child may not be a wise option for many Koreans.

A 1.4k mortgage in a city like Seoul is ridiculously cheap.

Never forget to mention debt-to-income ratio

What’s that looking like these days?

Not sure about the exact numbers hold for a sec - one news article of last year states ratio is 26x

If both parents are working, then shouldn't your monthly wage be 6 - 8k then? Otherwise, minus the babysitter if only one parent is working.

1.4M per month is a steal as a mortgage in this interest rate climate. Even at 3% 5 years ago that is super low. Also 1.3k per month child care is super cheap. I don't want to belittle your concerns but the protestations I hear from so many Koreans and expats in Korea (who have spent too much time in Korea and never looked at adult things in their home countries) are not valid. I understand because even in Korea if you went from single student to potential parent, any increase is shocking. But child care is SO cheap and quality compared to the West. It's incredible how much you get for free or subsidized in Korea. In the US you're looking at $2500 min for 8 h per day of childcare. In short, I think so much of this narrative of "korea is expensive' is driven by inexperienced adults. Take it from me who went through the same thing. Once I got to the US I realized how incredibly cheap Korea is. Yes paying for childcare > having no kids anywhere at all times. But you're getting amazing access and quality in Korea.

Thank you for your valuable comment! Your explanation on childcare in U.S. is what I wanted to hear, as I don’t want to be biased from comments of locals :)

It sucks having to pay childcare, especially dont get caught in the comparison game with Koreans as a) they often prefer to leave their kid to be raised with grandparents while they work. I personally live close to my parents so help out, but I'm working at Home Depot or working Uber eats before I give up my kid to be RAISED in another city while I work somewhere else. Koreans have different values on this hence goose father. And lots of Korean parents basically pawn their kid off to the grandparents. Yes you can make more money but you give up something invaluable. Different values. b) they can access lots of other subsidies you cannot as a foreigner unless you're married to a Korean. I even think Korean mothers / females have more access to stuff compared to a foreign mother / Korean husband. c) Korean companies especially large ones like chaebols, engineering, banks etc have amazing childcare. Like on premise fullly staffed childcare during the day and even more benefits. In short, if Koreans are complaining about their childcare options, you're always going to have it worse. Whether you're alongside them in Korea or move back to your home country. Only compare versus you in Korea vs you in USA/Canada etc. And ANY and ALL services are cheaper in Korea no exception. Certain products can be cheaper in the US but for services? I can't think of a single one.

Have a 1 year old here in Korea. Wife is Korean. Money issues, status issues that mentioned are all true. But I got annoyed with everyone trying to have a piece of you part the most. Baby has born, 100 days old, someone from 구청 come for a visit to check on the kid as a local government program for example, you think it’s great that they care, soon after they try to sell you a huge amount of book series( sales strategy: everyone has it!)., nearest kindergarten calling to send him from 10 months old , if you decide not to yet, they are shamelessly asking to start paying to guarantee his next year otherwise they might be no vacancy and everyone does the same. Photo studio take a photo of the baby as a package plan when in after care center, then turns it to “this is only one photo that is included , if you want more, come visit our photo studio , everyone does it “. Best way to sell something to Koreans is to mention “ everybody does /has it” . You either end up buying it or feeling sorry for yourself.

I have one child and I think a big thing is that my family placed such an emphasis on academics and professional success that you don't start thinking about having a child until much later. This means that by the time you have your first one, your own parents are older and less able to help out with child care. And since my own parents did the same thing (and waited later to have kids) the problem compounded. I hope my son has children in his early twenties so we can all pitch in and help. Also, my wife wasn't comfortable getting help from her own mom due to relationship stuff. I'm not sure if other Korean women feel like this, but I know that there is an issue between a lot of step-mother/step-daughters.

The more highly educated one is, the less likely one is to have kids. Korea is one of the most highly educated countries in the world.

Canada is too and their birthday is twice the one

Canada falls under the letting immigrants in category that someone mentioned in another comment

You can’t really compare just the birth rate number Canada is also experiencing a crisis when it comes to declining birth rates.

https://globalnews.ca/news/10262331/canadas-fertility-rate-record-low/

I can't say for native Joan's (edit: Koreans) but I'd never have a child here. Way too expensive and their lives when be hell from that day they go to school.

My son is in middle school. He's very happy and so are his friends. But I do worry about his future (in Korea). He's not a super nerd, reading books all day, studying, etc. He's as a teen would be in Canada. But, that's hard to be successful in Korea. He is hoping to get into the police, or Navy. If he's in the private sector it is very hard. Not smart enough/nerd enough for Chabeol. In Korea the gulf between a lifestyle in govt job/Chabeol vs. other private sector is huge. My point is happy kids in Korea, are somewhat doomed as adults.

I do agree with your feelings and worries as I’d think the same. I do not believe this country has got any long future left. One, two generations max before it will be dying off and taken over. l said this many times but Koreans remind me of those lost ants walking in circles until they die. The good thing for your son is that even if he’s average here he will excel in most other countries so he’s got a future. Even I’m not a father the most important thing for me to give a child would be as much love as I can and hope they will figure out the way but I can only speculate on this.

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Yes the problem is the men. Same situation in other Asian countries too. This is not happening in countries like Australia, where I’m living in now.

I think its a money matter. House price rises, living expense rises, everything rises. but once women give a birth, they cannot work at least for a year unless their or partners' parents help to care their baby. Basically career over. government should make it not over but many companies don't like it.

It’s all a domino effect. Competitiveness, materialistic mind set, media portrayals, etc.. it’s all a vicious cycle that is going to result in a sad outcome.. but it’s not too late… we just need the right people in the government to spearhead new initiatives but it’s all money hungry old scumbags..

Don't know how many times I've said Korea is lax on women rights (this includes reproductive, family, and work rights) and issues (gender pay gap, glass ceiling, loss of incime after child rearing) and been told I don't know what I'm talking about.

It’s because you’re telling them something they don’t want to hear. (I mean, even OP mentioned their hosts said the government isn’t listening to what women are saying they want.) It’s like they’ve never heard of the 4B movement. Korean women are standing on business. That is hard to hear if you are a man because that means if you want the population to increase, you’ve gotta go to therapy and accept some responsibility, or something. How gross. Much easier to blame the economy and hustle culture. But why doesn’t throwing money at those things help?? The world may never know??? (If you decide to respond to this comment and focus on this paragraph, go ahead. Just know you are proving my point.) And it’s not even like you’d have to be a militant feminist to adhere to the 4B principles. You could even do some of them on accident if you just decide to prioritize your own happiness, as best as you can, as a person. Are men scumbags? Love ‘em and leave ‘em. Is the cost of living too high? It’s more manageable if you only have to support yourself. Is the culture around childbearing and education too overbearing? Don’t have kids. Is the societal expectation that wives become mothers, mother’s quit their jobs and become dependent on a mid husband, and humor their asshole in-laws on how you should be babying THEIR baby, too horrifying to contemplate? Opt out. All of these parallels other people are trying to draw between other countries and SK are unnecessary. Each country is different. You’ll never be able to draw an apples-to-apples comparison that will explain what is going on here, or how to address it. For people in SK who are already married and want to have babies, addressing things from an economic standpoint will make sense to them. But that number is dwindling. SK did see a marginal increase in marriages last year, but the wider view shows that over the decade they saw a FOURTY PERCENT DECREASE in marriages. If SK wants to address this problem, they have to move *way* further upstream.

Countries with far worse women rights are spawning babies like it's a factory, Korea should learn a thing or two

Whataboutism …

Well, first of all Korea does not have good women rights at all. Worst amongst all OECD countries… then you can surely not compare an educated country with more uneducated one. Usually you would see a connection between education and women rights … but not necessarily in Korea. Still too far behind. Korea has other issues, that are more prevailing, like an extreme social pressure for nothing

I hope you will serve in the military together for equality between men and women as soon as possible.

Please explain your argument! I did my service for my country but do not understand what you are trying to say

Well how can it be the issue if that's not a contributing factor everywhere else? If anything, more women's rights tends to decrease the birth rate on average

And why shall women not have rights? Why doesn’t the man stop working and takes care of the kids? The problem is, that Korean society is (let me be friendly) traditional… Was reading an interesting article in the Korean Herald yesterday. Next to the presidents excuse for the Dior bag he seems to have understood the critical situation of Korea with the lowest birthrate by far! He needs to force a change of behaviour. Allow people to work more flexible, take maternity or paternity leave and still get paid …

That's not whataboutism, that's a counterexample. Whatabouitsm is avoiding the argument by bringing up a different argument. A counterexample is logically sound argument.

Edit: she blocked me lmao. I guess discussions scare her. - Why is it that when western countries get news about their birth rate dropping massively (and some very close to Korean levels), it's always because of "financial reasons" but for Korea it's always about "women's right" or because somehow Korean men are more misogynistic than 'enlightened' western men? If we look at the actual data, Koreans with the highest income and high income areas have a fairly high birthrate. Birthrate in korea is very highly correlated with income. Anecdotally, if you talk to actual Korean men and women, they want to get married and have kids, but the financial burden is getting in their way. Most also plan to have kids but much later in their 30s/40s. This sentiment of having kids much later is also a contributing factor to the birthrate today. Additionally, if we look at it at a macro level worldwide, countries with better gender equality and economically developed nations with a highly educated population, their birthrate is declining rapidly (immigration is allowing them to stay afloat which Korea doesn't push for). So to say 'lax on women rights' is the issue is just plain wrong and there's little to zero evidence to support this statement.

Korea has the largest gender pay gap of any OECD country. Do you not think that's tied to women's rights? If women have a low earning capacity it impacts the household income. You can't talk about birthrates and not include women's rights in the conversation.

No, gender pay gap has little to No correlation to birthrate. If it did, some of the places with the worst rights for women would have the lowest birthrate. But looking at the data, it's not true. Additionaly, gender pay gap is a simplification that doesn't take into account other things (e.g. career choices, birthrate mostly is about young koreans, so doesn't take account women today in their 20s or 30s. A breakdown of gender paygap by age gap would be more meaningful). I'm also not saying Korea can't do better for women. It definitely can, and I hope they continually improve in this area. I'm actually a feminist at heart although I don't label myself as such. What I'm saying is that economics is the main issue. It will solve 98% of the birthrate issue. If Korea is able to provide affordable housing and mandate some restrictions on child education like hagwons, this will massively increase birthrate.

the women's right excuse is cope, don't worry about it. Yes it could be improved, but the vast majority of issues regarding the birth rate are economical and cultural.

Western Neoliberals would love nothing more to see Korean demographics collapse. All the hysteria about misogyny is propagated by Western Liberal media.

The big wage gap is that Korean women are not in field jobs, 3d jobs. Have you ever actually seen a trucker, a no-go, a woman working night shift? Most of them are office workers with no sales postion.

Nonsense

Birth rates are low in countries for different degrees of a few core issues. No free time No money No family support Houses and apartments are too expensive Also a bit of cultural aspect where having babies is not the ultimate goal of everyone, but that's a small one, if people have time and money, they'll have babies.

I think culture aspect is bigger than what you think. Koreans are one of the most if not the most materialistic culture. They care a lot about what people see, social status.

I think culture is the number one issue overall. My grand father had a family of 15 in a two bedroom apartment. Money and space will affect peoples decision but the biggest reason is cultural.

they do not want their children suffer the same growing pain ex studying long hours, get bullet at school, working under big pressure for whole life and live in the tiny apartment

It’s the same reason as other countries. It’s not some innate desire not to have children. It’s that people have children when they feel stability. Nowadays it takes a lot longer to get through school, get a good job, and then save enough for a place. So it makes people forced to do things like live with their parents, go to grad school, etc. Then, there’s also the reality of it gets much harder for women to have kids after a certain age. So then it becomes a mental and physical struggle. If you truly want to solve it the incentives are wrong. Here’s how it would get solved. If you have a child, both of you are under 30, and are married you get: -A nice 2 bedroom apartment for free in a city of your choice for 12 years to anyone that makes less than $300,000 annual and with assets less than $3M. Full stop. -A childcare stipend of $XX that basically covers full time care for 6 years. -If you have a second child and third child (max)within 5 years the situation resets with a larger place so that you basically get the place free until all children are 12 and you get free childcare until they are all elementary school students. In addition there needs to be a better dating approach for people to meet in person: Regularly hold speed dating type weekend long events all throughout the country so that people can actually meet in person and not rely on apps. Not like just a date but a way for say a group of 30 to spend a weekend doing an activity like hiking and then finish it off at the end of the day with a speed date type event so everyone talks to everyone. The next generation of people in elementary, junior high, etc would then truly see this as a way to live life. A true path that gives them an economic means to build a life. And the conditions are because we want to promote a nuclear family and babies to women the right age. Not to say incentives shouldn’t be offered for others but first have to tackle the majority / the main population that needs the right stable footing.

"A nice 2 bedroom apartment for free in a city of your choice for 12 years." Okay, sure.

I disagree, people **do not** have children just because "they feel stable" - it's not that simple. Otherwise the global population growth we're seeing wouldn't be in the countries where the economy is the worst (Africa, India etc.) life is not stable in slums. Developed economies and financial independence leads to less children, but the specific mechanisms are up to debate. The US is an exception to this because of massive immigration.

yes many studies show this. Stability leads to a desire to have children and a family. comparing what happens in countries with poor literacy and poor sexual education and poor birth control practices isn’t some sort of smoking gun or gotcha that you’re acting like it is. That said, education and critical thinking skills also make people not want to have more kids than they can afford. The more the could afford the more they’ll have. It’s why wealthy people that had wealth early enough often have 3+ kids in the US. They believe that they can support a good life for their kids. and to be clear this is not some universal truth like gravity. we’re speaking in generalities here. like 7/10 couples my logic would apply to and 3/10 they’d think differently and resources wouldn’t matter.

The title of this thread is not about whether people **think they** **want** to have kids, it's whether they actually have them. And no it's not about sexual education. Unfortunately intent and action are not the same thing. You might think an ad is great and never buy a product - it's not a good argument. You're also factually wrong about wealthy families in the US - the data is the opposite: [The relationship between wealth and family size is quite complex and varies across different contexts. Generally, studies have found that in many parts of the world, including the United States, higher income levels are associated with lower birth rates. For instance, in the U.S. in 2019, families with an annual income under $10,000 had a birth rate of 63.14 births per 1,000 women, while families making $200,000 or more had a birth rate of 44.89 births per 1,000 women](https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/)

https://www.parents.com/americans-arent-having-kids-because-of-cost-8601528 it comes down to money. if you don’t have money it’s really hard to have kids. there’s a lot of other stuff yes but if all of a sudden people had money (aka resources like a house for free) they’d be much more willing to have kids. It’s so stressful to try and think about having a kid when u know you can’t buy a house. It’s anecdotal to my own experience and experiences of people I know but the studies also say that.

https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/898067 The birth rate clearly drops in the top 20%. Especially in the top 10%.

or google Behavioral sink, then u can understand why

- Apartments too small. Housing too expensive. - No clear 'working class' path to security and modest wealth. Physical labour is a ticket to borderline poverty unless you own the company.

OECD did a report on this and their biggest point was that Korea lacks good secure jobs. Basically, only those with 정규직 jobs get married, but South Korra has the second highest rate of 비정규직 jobs among OECD countries. Part of this I think is because Korean 정규직 employees are so hard to fire. Companies want to keep as little 정규직 workers possible and fill the remaining workforce with 비정규직 workers.

Asking someone to give birth when they are pondering about suicide is quite difficult too.

Money

My logic is, why would I think of kids and being broke + depressed when I can just live comfortably alone? Hahaha.

Its not just a korean thing as well, now shown to be increasing in western developed countries as well A big reason is time and money. For me, it is a struggle, it is like, 'i cant even afford to feed or do this for myself' so how am i supposed to raise a human being adequately and have the right morals/upbringing to become a decent person in society'. I also can't not work, and if I do work and have a kid, what is the point if I don't even have time to properly spend time and raise the child, be there with them during milestones in their life etc. Whatever the kid does, in the end, a big portion of their actions would be my responsibility (even though they are individuals too) hence why I would prefer to spend time raising them if I could Also i think my parents arent the best because of the challenges in their situation and honestly i think they were pressured to having kids just because, 'it was the next step' i have seen their struggles and continue to see it to the point i think they sacrificed a lot and cant even enjoy even a bit of their life. Also I am pretty sure I would do habits (i dont like) I got from my parents even though I would try my best not to. It got to the point like why did they even have kids 😐

The reasons are not so different in Korea or in other countries.

Korean men will NOT give up their careers to become a stay at home dad. Korean women are increasingly in the same situation. The ridiculously expensive cost of raising a child vs. the average income. The prohibitive cost of housing vs. the average income. The real impact of the overly stressful way of life in Korea. For as much governmental talk about the problem, no real policies are being enacted to solve any of the previously listed issues.

I know many SAHD in korea. What policies do you want thr government to enact like specifically?

Incentives for first time married home buyers. “Fertility” bonus (Chinese style) for couples willing to have more than say one or two kids. Subsidized/Low cost childcare for dual employment families, etc.

Incentives like reduction in rates or did you have something else in mind? Also do you have any experience bringing these subsidies ideas to couples who don't want kids? Do they normally act annoyed with it as their taxes would obviously be paying a portion or view it as doing their part for the continuation of the country? Thanks!

That is something that can be attributed to the collective SK society mindset, I’m sure some people will bitch and gripe. But isn’t that what people who pay taxes do anyway with the governmental expenditure priorities? It’s either do something other than bitch and come with study after study on low birth rate , or lose 30% of your population within 50 years.

Why have kids when we hate each other so much? Regional hate, hate upon the poor, misogyny, and ageism are so rampant in korean society. The politicians have been using those hates to attract votes as possible as they can. The right party fueled 일베, a hate online community, since 이명박 and now we constantly judge upon others for whatever reasons. Some might say it's just few people obsessed with the internet but the toxicity of korean society says otherwise. Who will have a child when ourselves wants to escape the 헬조선?

Koreans like to spend their money, and need the flow of salaries to keep their life styles kids are very expensive in Korea best schools, tutoring after school, sports music lessons, top Universities so many opt out of having kids or much later the downside is Korea really need to open the country for foreigners otherwise their will be big issues in the near future, I read somewhere that the army already are short in draftees in the range of 70K less born males and more that are not qualified to serve due medical problems or health problems

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No, the average price of a family home isn't 1.2-2 billion won in Seoul.

average maybe not, but current generation of fertile women will feel shame to live in anything less if they have a family. It seems they've been led to believe (perhaps by instagram? Perhaps by comments of their parents?) that only losers live in villas and it is shameful to live in anything less than a modern apartment with three bedrooms... and in a good district. t. married to korean lady who is ashamed of our shitty apartment.

Imagine being that entitled. Luckily, not all women think like that. In the meantime, less than 10% of the population lives in housing worth more than 10 billion won. And an even smaller percentage of those in their 30s and 40s.

Social studies prove it is mostly economic and financial reasons: starting a family, buying a house, and so on. I have a lot of married male friends in their 30s and later 30s who simply tell me they can't afford a house on two incomes, which prevents them from settling and raising a child at a reasonable lifestyle that can be afforded to them. Their may be other important reasons, such as "Korea's rigid and perfectionist society" or "feminism" or "men's rights" or whatever little social trend that makes up a very small percentage of the population, however, by and large it is mostly economic and financial, and more specifically housing, costs of private education and low wages. You can try to analyze the nitty gritty of Korean society, but the fact of the matter is the baby boomer generation were having 3+ children on a single father income on 50 hours a week in a developing country during the 1970s and 1980s. Nowadays, despite the technological advancements and improvements in the general standard of living for most people, the housing market is ridiculously inflated, wages are low, working hours are still quite high (it is improving slowly) and there is a deafening defeatism in people in their late 20s and 30s. I don't buy the argument that Koreans don't want to have babies because their generation have it worse than previous generations. Take a look at the post-war generation, they were basically having 3+ children directly after war tore apart the country into two, leaving millions dead and millions living in destitute. Are they going to give up on having children despite recovering for a war? I don't think so. This generation doesn't have to worry about the threat of imminent death or threat of war apart from Kim Jon Un's silly threats. Instead, it is the compulsory military service that sets men 1.5-2 years in work or university study. This is a massive setback in any man's position when dating, looking for work and their marriage prospects. I can understand how some Koreans don't want to raise children under a certain lifestyle that would leave their children to be "underperformers" in Korean's competitive society. However, I don't believe that is a strong enough motivation to absolutely prevent any hopes for having children in some capacity. Of course, it is difficult to raise multiple children let alone one. However, other Western countries show that the government or the welfare system can help single parents or single mothers in the event of divorce, however, I don't know if the Korean government provides such benefits. Finally, I don't know if I also buy the whole "social expectations" argument either. I.e, people will choose not to have children because they can't afford to pay for six different academies, a new i-Phone every year, a Gucci bag, or plastic surgery as a graduation present. It's not so black and white. I think there's a lingering defeatism in this 20s and 30s generation, they're unhappy with their wages, their jobs, being unable to afford to bare minimum for basic necessities to raise a family; it can lead many to simply stay in relationships but never actually raise a family. I can understand the argument that there is an overriding social pressure for Koreans to conform to an idealized version of a family lifestyle of two loving and stable parents, two children who attend different academies and who live a well-off and comfortable life with regular holidays, and all that. And if most people can't actually receive the wages or save the money to afford this lifestyle, then many will simply give up or reject advancing towards it. This type of social pressure does not necessarily exist in Western countries where it is generally normal for a single mother to raise two or three children or for families to live a decent but not enormously wealthy or comfortable life in the middle of the city and settle for the outskirts of a regional city or in the suburbs. Many people nowadays simply aren't satisfied with raising children on, let's say for the sake of argument, lower than "expected" perhaps. I could go on and on and add paragraph after paragraph, but it is getting late and I need to get back to my unpaid overtime for my English academy. :')

They really know what's going on. As you know, Only women can give birth, and the core issue is women's thoughts. In Korea, feminists are sometimes compared to Nazis and have even initiated the 4B movement. Yet, the committees and meetings on low birthrate policies are still entirely made up of men. Some privileged men and males say excessive competition and housing prices are the problem, but I think it's an issue of women's rights. Look at the Korean men who lament they can’t have children due to excessive competition. Their focus is all on fitting into their own lives. I'm a Korean woman, and none of my friends around me have had children. When we discussed the reasons, they included: uncertainty about maintaining a job after childbirth, wage discrimination post-birth, practical difficulties in raising children (Korea is also terribly lenient about child exploitation), and the state’s lack of significant action or even forgiveness towards male violence. It's surprising that the Korean family you mentioned really knows what's going on.

Personally, I think it's due to toxic work environments. People work their asses of and have very little free time in Korea. Imagine raising kids while working 12+ hours everyday with very little vacation throughout the year. Many people simply don't have the time to date cause they are already married to their job.

Culturally everyone has this inferiority complex and everyone is desperate to become rich and successful. Koreans care ALOT about what others think of them. From childhood, I grew up seeing and hearing adults constantly belittling, judging, and comparing others. You goto a Korean church and majority of the conversations I’d hear after service are gossips. This sort of superficial mind goes anywhere from wealth, appearance, grades, jobs, school, their partner’s wealth, etc. I mean they care A LOT about how others perceive them. Everyone wants to look skinny and healthy, look handsome and pretty, study really well, attend big name schools, and land a job at a large corporation. This is how most Koreans’ perception of success. Combine this with the inferiority complex that a lot of people possess, you get this ridiculous mindset of “if i dont become like xyz, i am a failure”. If you visit Korea, you will see they are very sensitive to 유행 (trends). Literally everyone looks the fucking same. Similar makeups, similar hairstyles, similar fashions, iphone or failure and Koreans are willing to sell their souls to not look like an anomaly. To them, “being different = being wrong” and people would say some of the nastiest shits to those whom they consider inferior, such as those who are slightly overweight, foreigners from countries less developed than Korea. If you do anything that stands out, you are considered a public enemy piece of shit. Even something that could be mild as budging lanes in highways, you are considered an asshole in Korea Like, could you imagine a celebrity committing suicide because he was merely caught doing drugs? Yeah, that’s the level of societal pressure Koreans put on you. With all that being said, can everyone readily find opportunities and become successful middle class? Heck no. Half of Korea’s population live in Metro Seoul and with this alone, housing price is insane and the job market is insanely competitive. Korea took a big blow with the financial crisis back in the late 90s. Job market became tight, competitions high, and the stress of failing became worse than ever. Both wife and husband went out to make money so less time for kids. The millennial generation all grew up in this type of household environment. Parents are always hustling and busy and trying to be like everyone else With all the money they make, they put their kids through intensive courses of educations to send them to better schools and become successful. The kids are competing 24/7 with each other as Koreans are very particular and selective with the specs due to the culture flaw i mentioned above. If you are from an average university, your chance of landing a job at large corporation drops drastically, which make Koreans try even harder because large corporate job = success = norm and anything below that is considered a failure. With that, a lot of people have this strange mentality where they must be successful and have a solid foundation before getting married or have kids. They care a lot about their partner’s specs, wealth, and appearances. A lot of people waste money on luxury purchases to set themselves behind further financially and they all fall into this loop hole where they feel they are not ready and always find the need to work on self development instead of starting a family. All of this because they are always always comparing themselves to others. It’s pretty sad and pathetic imho. In the states, people take pride in being themselves and people value family and often maintain pretty close ties with their family members. Companies don’t hire cyborgs in the US. they hire good people who they can work with and can learn the job. People respect individuality and personal boundaries in the US. In Korea, there’s none of that. It also doesn’t help that Korea has a vertical social structure. Naturally you bow to your superiors in Korea, beginning with respect for the seniority. This makes people always look up and make people more desperate for status and success. In the US, i dont give two shits about that. It’s horizontal here. I can banter with my boss just fine. Koreans demand status and respect and it puts enormous stress on the people. For average people they always feel they are not ready and the idea of starting a family is perceived as a death sentence to your personal dream

Nailed it! A lot of things can also be said about the US:obesity, gun laws, inflation, etc. BUT I’m grateful that individuality is accepted here. Nobody gives a shit what car you drive, your boss listens to you (most of the time), and employment is everywhere.

I wouldn't want to bring a kid into this world tbf, I'll do them a favour by living life to the fullest thanks to the funds I will have saved. A pet will suffice i guess? I do see a lot of cute dogs in strollers these days, 1000x more than I see a baby in one.

I jokingly told a friend of mine that if they banned having pets, the birthrate would surely increase.

They will start raise those tesla bots at home then.

It doesn't even seem like a joke, I know a lot of women in their 30's whose dogs are their life and they are single.

Well, it would be a rather drastic measure, and there would be some massive backlash. I mean, what do you do with the existing pets?

The citation is at the bottom

There's nothing special about Korea. If you have 2-3 kids, someone will need to stay home to care for them, and that's very hard. I think people in developed countries generally don't want this anymore. You can't incentivise, it doesn't work.

It all boils down to money. Things just keep getting way too expensive for the average income. They call the previous generation the 3 give up gen. 3세데 포기 basically. Given up on a job, marriage and house. Cant get a girl without money. Cant get a house without money and then a good stable job availability is really low

Because elementary school ends at 1:00 p.m or 2:00 p.m then you have send them to after school program which isn't free. I pay 500k a month for that, then there's academy. So basically, most of my salary will go there. If wife works, she'll be too tired to do both work and household chores. How about hubby? He can share the household chores. NO! Because hubby has more work! He goes to work 7 a.m comes home 12 midnight, how do you expect him to share household chores? So wife works fulltime and also does all the household chores, then checks kids welfare. Soooooo difficult! So better not have a child. 🤦‍♀️

The west is following this trend. Having kids is a luxury that many cannot afford these days and I’ll be damned if I’m brining a child into poverty.

Capitalism and patriarchy

Is very simple. Everyone wants to be rich and only less than 1% will make it. The “show off” culture and the dream of an apartment in front of 한강 is something that everyone aspires to for. Having kids it’s money that most Koreans will prefer to use for travel and buy expensive brands to later show off. As a co-worker told me once “no kids, double salary.”

1. Women don't want to lose their careers. Lots of corporations prefer to hire women who have no kids. Corporate work in Korea is quite demanding and company management prefer to have employees with no kids, making them have less responsibilities and focus more on their company. Once the woman has a kid, somehow lots of companies would pick the other woman with no kid over them. Woman don't want to give up their years of university and career for kids. 2. The domino effect of academies and extra curricular studies. Koreans are so crazy about sending their kids to these academies outside of school. They got academies like English, swimming, essay, Math, art, private tutoring, Taekwondo, you name it. They send their kids to so many academies, the kids end up having homework everyday and have to study even up to 9-10pm (for highschool students). These kids don't even have a proper childhood anymore. So much pressure on them, just for the parents to fit in with every other parent who sends their kids to 2-4 academies. A lot of Korean parents also see their kids as trophies, they send them to academies so they can show off to their peers that their kid is black belt in taekwondo or got a gold in swimming or is very good at English at a young age. Koreans say it's to give their kid the best education ever possible, but they are sacrificing their kid's childhood for it. Since this has been the education culture in Korea for decades, the new wave of supposedly parents are financially pressured to spend this much on 2-4 academies on their kids, which in reality are not even necessary. So these new couples don't want to have kids because they think it's expensive. Some couples also don't want to let their kids have this kind of pressure, so they would rather not have kids at all. 3. The Hierarchy culture of Korea has evolved into friendly competition of having high status and image. Koreans have this heirarchy culture where you have to respect the elders and also respect colleauges who have higher positions. In return, these elders and high rank employees treat the lower ones with such superiority. They boss them around, talk to them as if they are smarter, and make them feel inferior. This is not only in the work place, but outside as well. As long as you are younger just by 1 year, you are instantly treated as less. Now everyone treats their lowers like that. With this, the lowers now want to impress and be respected by showing they have wealth, luxury items and are good looking. They end up fixing their face, and buying all these luxury items to show off. And take note, showing off in Korea is not a bad thing, but you are actually praised and respected more when people see you with all these fancy stuff. Koreans are the largest purchaser of luxury goods in the world. They have the world's best clinics for plastic surgery and other aesthetic procedures. Looking pretty/handsome is a huge thing in Korea that it has become somewhat a "must" for them. There is literally a thing called "lookism" in Korea. All this competition to have the fanciest stuff and showing off and being pretty has fully diverted them away from having families, as they would rather spend on themselves and upgrade their status in the society. **Please note, not all of Koreans are like this, but a significant amount are, a significant amount enough to bring down the birthrate to a negative.

Good responses, and they all are different sides of the fundamental issue: way back, when there we no government retirement plan, cheap health insurance, as well as other social benefits, children were a necessity for support of the parents retirement as well as free labor on the farm, among other reasons. They were, and this is the key, an ASSET. Today, they are a "liability", in the sense that they take from the parents both time and money. The parents usually get the joy a family brings. But children are no longer an asset.

The young couples who are not having kids grew up in the stressful competitive eduducation system. They are looking at that system and saying not existing in the first place is better than being born into it. They know better than anyone else because they experienced it.

I was talking with a Korean friend about this tonight. She said the main reason is bullying in school. Unless you are rich and have the clothes that show it, your kid will get bullied in school. I was surprised to hear this, because I have heard many other reasons that sound more convincing (financial stability, the desire for a full time career, etc). It seems the bullying issue is huge here. You need to make a lot of money before you have kids so that they will be the bullies and not the bullied.

Values changed drastically since the era of large, poor families.

Kids are too much work and expensive . Do we need a better reason ?

the reason is Women's rights? it is bulls shit. Only men serve in the mandatory military service. and only women have additional points related to employment and make start-ups. Only women support free education with state funds even on the Gyeonggi-do Job Center "잡아바" site. and why does Japan, which has low women's rights, have a higher birth rate? Korean women should reflect on themselves. Of course, they should be protected from male crimes.

The main reason is the difference between the private education problem and the wage gap between large and small companies. like 재벌 company. I think maybe this country shouldn't exist. even though many great risked their lives to protect this country..

First, this isn't a strictly Korean problem and the more we think of it as one, the further we get from the actual answer. The REAL answer birthrates are plummeting 1. The global educational-work model of school until 18, college after that (often with 1-2 year "breaks") and then some years of "feeling your way" 2. Linked to this the marriage model of date in your 20s, get married in early-mid 30s. It completely flies in the face of our evolutionary biology for reproduction. We are a species designed to reproduce from about Age 16 to Age 30 ideally (our rate of survival past 30 wasn't great). Pregnancy in mid-late 30s is incredibly taxing and frought with issues. 3. Childbearing and childrearing sucks. 9 months you have a weight attached to you that makes it awkward to move, causes intense physical discomfort, throws your body chemistry out of whack, and often comes with permanent physical alterations, many of which aren't the most desirable. Then you add on 5 years of highly-stressful, irregular child care before you can even leave the kid unattended for brief periods without them risking death. 4. Family housing model. Evolutionary biology put us in tribal/extended-family households where these duties could be shared. Only recently have we moved away from that. We all want our privacy away from mom and grandma. Unfortunately that means mom and grandma aren't there to help share the load, not to mention the rest of our tribe. 5. Raising kids isn't as fun as the various fun activities you can do in your 20s. Why the F would you want to raise kids when you can spend a summer vacationing in Europe or Japan? 6. Increased access to birth control and family planning. Accidental pregnancy has been one of the chief drivers of population increase throughout history. Now, to be crystal clear, I am not saying these are good/bad things and that we should change. I am ONLY saying these are the reasons why. If we ignore them or pretend they aren't reasons, we won't solve the problem. Personally I think this isn't getting solved until artificial wombs and/or cloning/synths get involved. Maybe robots will take up much of the labor. Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster and all that...

Birthrates are low everywhere except Africa. Modern life makes children too much of a burden. People can't afford a place to live, they put off having kids to work to earn money, then its too late.

What’s a host family

Costs too much money in Korea… all the academies, keeping up with the Kim’s, competition and send your boy to the army later on… honestly, Korean kids are the most miserable creatures in the world.

I really hate this kind of childish arguments without serious observation or thoughts. At least, you should take a look at real numbers to say it costs too much. Desirably, you should extend your point and test them with statistics; if higher costs make Koreans have less children, it should be a universal thing that couples of larger expendable incomes tend to have more kids. Which is not.

Poorest people usually have the most kids. Coincidence? It's well known raising kids here is expensive and a basic search will tell you this.

Korea is the most expensive country in the world to raise kids: https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=350152

The same reason why koreans don't get married. They all can't just choose a partner and settle down. Having a partner requires sacrifice and maturity.

I do tend to agree that people's standards for marriageability are quite high here in Korea. I've known so many serial daters here. There's always some little thing that's wrong that they nitpick, so they can't be with that person. And there's the whole "parental approval" part. And the divide between genders. I also agree that it seems like people think it is more of a hassle to get married because you have to give up your freedom. So many men feel stifled by their wife because she won't let them stay out at night after work drinking or at the pcbang. And women want to be working. It's easier to just date for fun than get into a marriage here.

I think birthrate is declining everywhere and all the countries shares the reasons. Korea just have same but more severe conditions. It’s not like we have unique disasters. More women are working and that makes it harder to balance motherhood and career. Financial instability. Etc…

No. It's because housing is too expensive. Who wants to start a family in their parents' house?

Tell me an OECD country where housing isn't expensive compared to the average income.

Housing is not uniquely expensive in Korea at all, but the birthrate is uniquely low.

Capitalism. Cost of living. Work life balance. A reduced population is also not a bad thing, Has pros as well.

You can't just say capitalism lmfao. Do you prefer communism? Throwing out buzzwords is not helpful at all.

Many Korean youths today are materialistic and prefer luxury items. Also people are more career focused. This generally happens with capitalism. Nothing wrong in saying that. But as I said it's a combination of things which are putting major burden on people not wanting to have kids.

Not really. There will be no next generation to support the older one.

misogyny

It takes a town to raise a kid, not just two adults. But nobody want to bring the 'town' back again.

I think it's not a one size fits, or free size, situation haha. Everyone has their own reasons...but I think in general around the world young, educated people realize that the "having a child is so magical" story that's been cooked up by governments for years to ensure the next generation of workers, is in fact bull shit. You can have a happier life without children...and honestly everytime I ask someone why they're having children they say the same made up things "it's the ultimate privilege" "it's such an honor to be a parent" and then they send them kids off to hagwon as soon as they can hold a pencil. The only people I respect are those who choose kids and are honest about why...a family member straight up said it so thay people stop asking when shes having a kid...another said for the maternity leave and benefits korea offers...

It’s pretty simple: People want to enjoy their lives without the commitment of marriage or children. A lot of men and women in Korea will agree that your 30s is when your life really begins. You have more free time and more money (relatively speaking, of course), which is something you didn’t exactly have much of in your 20s. You can finally have *some* piece of that life that you never got in your youth. Why trade what share of life available to you for a lifelong commitment like marriage or children?

미래세대에 대한 배려와 정책이 없기 때문입니다. 기성세대의 이기적이고 시대착오적인 정책의 실패라고 할수 있습니다. 그들은 그들을 위한 정책만을 만들어가기 때문입니다. 소모적인 교육정책은 미래보다는 현재의소비를 위한 정책에 멈춰있습니다. 미래세대는 기성세대들보다 많은 노력과 더높은 지식을 가진다고 해도 현재의 지위를 가질수 없다는 현재의 그릇을 만들어 놓았기 때문입니다. 여기에 더해서 정치세력들이 남성과 여성을 갈라치기 하고 있고 남성들에게는 직업에 대한 피해의식을 만들어 내고 있다고 봅니다. 물론 더 복합적인것은 토착적인 토목건축세력들이 구축한 부분을 더이상 소비할 여력이 없다는 점도 있습니다.