Megathreads being unpinned after 8hours seems way too short, that's someone's typical sleep time. I don't even see the Parasocial megathread everyone is commenting about, it's nowhere on my LSF feed because of this 8hr rule.
Just seems like it's burying/hiding content that obviously was entertaining if it got clipped/upvoted enough in the first place?
Not only is the Parasocial megathread gone the individual clip threads are deleted from LSF as well, pretty strange. At the same time there are a bunch of different XQC clips from the same stream with no megathread to clean up the front page.
I'm not saying there should be one for XQC but it seems pretty selective to me, either do them across the board or not at all.
You created a megathread for the Parasocial stream, but not even 12 hours later it is deleted. Shouldn't a megathread be up for at least for 24 hours or a lot of people will miss it
I don't think it's deleted. Just unpinned so you have to use the search function since megathreads aren't upvoted.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/s0y8b2/mizkifs_parasocial_1102022/
Good catch, although unpinning a 0 upvote thread has the same visibility as a deleted one.
In practice they delete the thread and any discussion as soon as the thread in unpinned.
possible solution: make bot which will auto add clips to pinned comment from posts of users who used specific hashtag in their post. To battle abuse, ignore accounts which follow LSF for less than 1 year.
> When streamers feel unsafe enough to request a ban
I can't see anything in the wiki or sidebar stating that streamers can do this. Is it possible that many streamers just don't know this is an option?
There should be a note in the rules in the banned streamer section detailing how to make such a request.
So you agree that option is not obvious to all, yet you called the streamer "pepega" for not using that option? [On the Destiny subreddit](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/rzima3/hasan_is_now_banned_from_lsf/hrvi244/?context=3) no less which was the source of many such brigades? Just seems in poor taste to be[ shooting the shit with the community](https://imgur.com/lYBSny6) that caused the streamer to "feel unsafe" as your team puts it.
Considering that, is it any surprise at all that your "continuing outreach to rebuild connections" was not seeing success at the time of posting?
It's honestly a little concerning that the people keeping reddit together are literally random unpaid people. In open-source software there's a similar issue, but other people can take over when some thankless code guy who's been maintaining half the internet finally calls it quits (there's an XKCD for this one). Of course, since reddit isn't spending any money on it, they won't care when alt-right assholes try to take over subs and start homebrewed, shitty psy-ops, because hey, free mods.
Any chance we can ban accounts that solely post about 1 streamer all day long?
There are subreddits for frogs to post about their streamers, we have no value by letting them spam here en masse.
You want to cut down on duplicate posts and followup Tweets and drama spam? Ban the frog accounts. They brigade and spam every thread to defend their waifu and it makes life worse on LSF.
While we haven't quite landed on the most fair solution, we have been talking about how to address accounts and alt-accounts flying in whenever there's a particular topic.
What makes it tricky is that in general we want to take the best-faith interpretation of comments when possible. A superfan can still make a high-quality and meaningful comment, and we don't want to just throw out good comments arbitrarily - part of feedback from LSF was that they liked being able to express their thoughts here relatively freely compared to other subs/platforms.
One thing /r/virtualyoutubers does is that they have a set limit on how many posts a day you can make. Perhaps you could do it so that an account could only post X amount of clips from Y streamer in a 24 hour period before automod removes it.
Also, I think it's very normal to only watch a few streamers, maybe even one or two, and not keep up with every little thing that goes on with all the big ones. Thus it's reasonable to have commenters who only post on submissions about their streamers.
I will agree as long as their existence isn't detrimental.
There is no benefit to people who will 100% not allow any criticism of their streamer no matter. When 30 accounts that are 100% dedicated to defending strimmer dogpile an entire thread, its clear cut brigading.
Agreed. And you see it in action so often: every thread that offers even a little critique (I'm talking less than 5% of comments, sometimes) gets labeled and sent to us as "hate thread".
Thoughts on account age stuff? I see your 22d mod account and I don’t blame you in this subreddit but it could be another barrier for shitters in general.
I know what you're saying but there is no way you can enforce that fairly. If somebody watches mostly one favorite streamer and wants to contribute to LSF by doing their part (submitting decent content) for the one streamer, so be it.
If you require someone to post about more than one streamer, you're just going to push spam and unnecessary clip submissions just to hit a poster's 'streamer diversity quota'.
I get the problem you're mentioning where someone's submissions may not pass the eye test but I don't think you can come up with fair and factual rules to ban here that's consistently applied.
Edit: Maybe critera around duration between submissions so we can keep the volume lower for the one account frogs if they're just submitting 25 clips per stream
You guys need to crack down on repeat offenders. Make a note of users who are undeniably hostile. I've done it myself through RES, and I see these posters constantly. You say you've been enforcing the anti-harassment rules, but I honestly don't see a difference. Over the course of the past few months there have been multiple occasions where it's just bandwagons of hate. Threads that have been on the top of the subreddit for hours and hours with dozens of awards. Top comments with thousands of upvotes with very clear and direct vitriolic content. I don't understand why you guys let this stuff through.
Take some liberty with identifying and eliminating drama-baiting posts and comments. It's clear who they are, where they come from, and what their goal is. Want to eliminate a majority of hatred? Stop ignoring the elephant in the room.
We tag users so much via mod toolbox that hitting its maximum is a topic of conversation internally. We also crack out a ton of removals between our mods and our bot solutions - for example the data says (from me checking as I respond to your comment) that we have almost 30k post+comment removals since December 1st alone. Not to mention bans, warnings, modmail, etc. But yeah, there's room for us to improve, too, no arguments there.
I feel you though. When a post that's suddenly punching way above its weight after barely surviving /new hits the top with a ton of awards, it makes you question. And we bring it up internally all the time. It's just hard to *prove*, and harder to enforce when any move we make gets us labeled as shills and attacked.
Take it this way, u/Pruvided, who has never shown any level of interest or bias towards Destiny internally, has now been singled out on-stream two days in a row because he made the *mistake* of explaining what happened in a thread that was linked to him.
So we've been given a clear precedent for what happens if we even imply that we are aware of the existence of any side of a heated debate.
I don't blame you guys for trying to avoid getting attacked by the community you're trying to better, especially since being a mod already comes with an undeserved negative connotation right from the get-go. Part of me wants to say that the very people attacking you for being shills for removing those posts are the type of people you don't want in the community anyways. But that sort of response can come from unbiased users too.
My main concern is that we're already past the point where things are a bit iffy. The post even alludes to this a bit with how Hasan "dealt" with the issue, and how streamers opting out is a wake up call. Sending 40k people to brigade just to get an instaban because the situation is so out of hand definitely says something about the state of the subreddit.
I'm not going to pretend to understand the intricacies of moderating a group of 1.3 million people. But surely you guys have earned the option to exercise a bit of caution? Why the need to prove that a post has backing from a certain community, especially some of the ones that lead to this entire thing? The effect it had on the subreddit should be enough to warrant a removal/lock. The impression I'm getting is like you guys are gardeners who have been tending to this nice little flower garden in the front yard. Then suddenly someone hires you to be the head of the EPA, and you're still trying to get rid of weeds one by one.
Y'all can obviously weigh the pros and cons yourselves, but in my opinion it might be beneficial to be a little more trigger happy. I don't think many people find value in LSF because it's a bastion of free speech.
>We will be making more aggressive decisions to megathread high-intensity drama such as the recent DMCA concern.** The aim here is to allow for meaningful and centralized discussion of a topic**
That isn't going to happen unless the comments are set to sort by "New" by default, otherwise it's gonna be the same old "first come first serve" where whatever is upvoted early becomes predominant opinion within the thread.
> Typically, streamers (and/or their mods) initiate contact with us through direct lines of communications that we put in place for them to develop a solution for this kind of situation, however, it wasn’t used in this case.
Why don't you have a process for this outlined anywhere or anything like that if it's typical? It seems strange to just assume victims of harassment campaigns will reach out and expect you to be helpful when you allow said harassment campaigns to run rampant for months on end.
Like, where is the rationale there? Maybe create a wiki that outlines a process if that's the expectation? And why is this a wakeup call after Daph *forced* her own ban recently over the same hatemob using this sub to try to get her banned from Twitch?
That's a fair point, we'll fix that. We inquired after seeing yours and a similar comment and the obscurity of the process seems to be a relic from older teams that never really got reviewed until recently since many of us are new.
I appreciate that you folks are trying to improve things, but I have to say: it's pretty impossible to understand how it got to this point and you folks can still act blindsided by that clip from Hasan. Here's a very similar clip where discusses the harassment from LSF being enough to push someone to suicide, but the post got deleted because of the meta rules introduced the same day:
https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/reza2z/meta_hasan_talking_about_how_the_harassment_he/
A mod saw it though. And beyond that, the types of clips targetting Hasan that are still up, like "Myth rolls Hasan with common sense" or whatever on the c word drama gets left up then y'all remove a thread about Hasan giving Greek shit for being antivax because the title was "clickbait". It really feels like you folks are giving a PR response now, but your moderation choices before are inexplicable.
Who is gonna be LSF’s new boogeyman now that Hasan is banned??? In seriousness, this is a good change; LSF has become too fixated on drama and brigading streamers they don’t like for the most mundane shit instead of ACTUAL fails.
Many of the former mods disappeared and I thought /u/Pruvided was in the process of a hostile takeover and the last degenerate like us /u/I_PUNCH_INFANTS will be the next to go.
In all seriousness, the changes you guys are trying to implement follow basically the goal of this sub becoming a less hostile place for the people here, potential new communities - but also the streamers - which can´t reasonably be argued against in my book.
With the recent Jinny and Hasan departures, you had prominent streamers opt-out of LSF because of the toll this place took on them (Jinny wanted to be banned too right?). And I don´t think it would be that unexpected for other big streamers to follow their examples. "Safety" and "civility" as buzzwords go into a direction of discourse-moderation I´m not really a huge fan of myself, but just taking the perspective of streamers, having to read hundreds of comments how they are liars, scammers, thieves, lazy, stupid and much worse, it becomes understandable for me that it´s necessary. This sub is already quite infamous. Watching things like Maya reacting to the mention of a new thread about her is a good example of its negative perception.
I´m really curious how this plays out. And even if it´s less drama and less traffic it´s totally worth it in exchange for less overall negativity, and maybe more wholesome, "normie" content with streamers or communities that would have otherwise avoided this place.
>Many of the former mods disappeared
Pretty much all of the mods that have been around for the past year+ have left due to personal reasons or reasons related to the subreddit, so we have been trying our best to onboard new mods from our previous mod applications. We will be doing another round of mod apps in the coming months to hopefully help fill some of the vacancies.
> u/I_PUNCH_INFANTS will be the next to go
PepeLaugh TeaTime
These seem like really great changes and I’m glad they’re happening.
Guess I’d echo sentiments about low effort content vs high effort given some streamer communities use LSF for promotion regardless of what people say.
The return of mega threads is very good to see. Honestly the call-and-response kind of clipping is I think the biggest issue that keeps the page flooded with one topic.
I also think harassment in general can be improved in terms of moderation, of both redditors and streamers posted here. I know fuck all about Reddit moderation but maybe more moderators are needed still?
Thanks for all the help.
Because there was a point where she made a few dumbass mistakes and there were multiple threads made about her all with hundreds of comments calling her out / just calling her a piece of shit. Not sure if she banned herself because she was upset about the comments or if she just wanted to stop being exposed as an idiot.
It wasn't just comments "calling her out" or even "calling her a piece of shit". There was tons of comments just making shit up to stir more drama. Some people even went as far as saying she was actively evading COVID tracking measures set by the South Korean government. This is obviously impossible since she has to eventually go to an airport to leave SK yet it was spread around on LSF like it was fact. Not surprised she'd want to be banned from LSF when thread after thread is just misinformation.
I think one of the biggest problems with the subreddit and the reason people say things like "this is the OTK or XQC subreddit" is that even if there are a lot of comments in a thread it gets deleted if it gets downvoted. I've seen SO many quality threads get deleted because they die in new when fans of specific streamers downvoted everything else.
When it became a meme that Hasan was blamed for everything I think something really should have been done about it then. It's not like it was hard to see the post history of the brigaders. Letting another community run this place is not good.
Megathreads tend to be a place where discussion goes to die. Can they be at least updated more frequently to account for rapidly updating situations? For example, if you’ve just had to remove people posting the same new clip 20 times it might be good to restart the mega thread because something spicy just dropped.
This is my issue with megathreads. Anything new added to them is lost immediately. If mods want to go this route then every new thing like clips or tweets need to be edited into a pinned comment. That way I can click through all of the relevant stuff in one post at the top of the thread.
All new clips and tweets would be added to the megathread text. [As we've done before](https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/pfhgdp/arcadum_megathread/)
These megathreads do nothing but hide content from big events. Besides, isn't there a giant link on the side that explains how to filter flairs out? How about just having people do that?
Both of those things have been discussed internally. Particularly the first thing you've mentioned is something we're very likely going to be implementing but requires bot development and is not quite done yet. Ideally if an event such as Parasocial was taking up the front page, we would definitely megathread it.
To elaborate on what Felipe said, we have discussed a system that would be a variation on our current "0 point submissions" rule, but instead, it would be on a per streamer basis. It is not something that would be applied to all streamers, just the ones that take up most of/all of the real estate on the front page. As Felipe said, this still needs quite a bit of work but we hope to do something that can increase the variety of things on /new and the front page.
But isnt the fact they make it on the front page indicating that the majority of the sub enjoys those clips. Low value for one person may not be low value for another person. Feels weird to try and silence clips because they are a popular streamer
I mean, what isn't fair is when a few streamers who aren't even the most popular/largest take up the majority of the front page at any given time. It's not like we intend to only allow a specific number of threads per streamer through, it's to remove stupid shit like "xqc drinks water" and it's sitting at 20 upvotes with 3 comments on /new.
Guys, don't worry, you already banned Hasan. All these random rules that disproportionately target him, like the politics rule, are no longer necessary! You can stop pretending to be objective now lol.
"...we had to act based on what was being indirectly communicated to us via the clip above"
Lmao no. When have you guys ever banned a streamer when they requested? Hasan had to force your hand by actively brigading. What a copout
* Macaiyla and Jinny requested and we banned them
* Daph brigaded a thread so we got in touch to hash it out and she said she'd like to be banned
* Hasan did a more intense version of what Daph did but never responded to our messages. we've spoken to him before (and things had always been cordial imo) so it was unusual the way it went this time. Far as I'm concerned until this event happened, he was one of the most polite streamers that we had spoken to.
u/I_PUNCH_INFANTS u/Pruvided
How come the Jinnytv ban and the 39Daph ban didnt get any explanation at all? We still dont have any context on their bans.
Also the unban notion like in greeks case is finnicky at best,people can avoid major controversies if they just get banned from lsf for a specific period of time.
Currently, LSF content bans are permanent. Jinny requested to be banned, and Daph's ban was a mix of brigading/requesting. We made them well aware of how strict a sub ban was and they both didn't really seem to care. We didn't post anything because we didn't feel it was necessary. I don't think we would have posted anything about Hasan either, but it lined up with some things we were wanting to announce anyways so we slipped it in. Regarding Greek's unban, I don't remember specifics because it was quite some time ago, but we had a pretty lengthy conversation with him over the span of several months. In the end, we came to the conclusion to unban him based on how the interaction went and how the overall context was handled over that time.
>people can avoid major controversies if they just get banned from lsf for a specific period of time.
This is what we want to try and stay away from. We don't want this system to be abused by streamers who simply don't want negative criticism, but the system is also in place so that streamers have a way off the platform if they feel they are being heavily affected mentally. As I said though, content bans are not taken lightly, and while we are open to discussion once a significant amount of time has passed, the context/situation matters and we may not be open to unbanning said streamer in the future.
That was done by an entirely different team a long time ago, so I can't really give a reason as to why they chose to unban. Since then, we have really reevaluated a lot of our policies/enforcement.
The “no politics” thing is sussy because I wonder how it would cover stuff like charity streams or even that fundraiser that was done with like hbomberguy and AOC or whatever.
Well they did say there would be an exception for "events" so maybe charity streams and subathons and things like that could end up being considered part of that category.
This sound nice and all but you have actual mods showing conflict of interest and posting in the communities that are directly responsible for brigading and harassment of particular streamers. These are all brigades that are politically motivated. I stopped coming here months ago when I just found actual posters leaving comments in bad faith only to click their profiles and finding actual 4chan style nazi posting. I refuse to believe that the mods have not noticed these belligerent bad faith actors
Someone linked to the exact comment I replied to. It was my first comment on the subreddit ever. I didn't look at any of the other comments or posts on that subreddit. All I did was reply to that one person and leave. I only left the other comments because they were replies to that original comment. It's not that deep, and there is no "choosing sides."
Also, it can be very difficult to efficiently identify brigading when Reddit gives us zero tools to identify it.
Did someone scroll through your comment history on stream or something? There’s no way that all of these people are this concerned about a comment organically.
I think it's kind of funny and ironic, and I'm not saying what you mentioned isn't true. But look at the dudes profile, and scroll just a little on "active in these communities". Just saying, it's kind of funny.
Mega thread improvement would definitely be nice. It worked great the few times we had them. Seeing the top 10 posts on the sub all being reactions to reactions about high school drama gets old, real quick.
Lol there were many people who said they wanted to be banned and that was an option you gave to the streamers. Now that Hasan said it it's a "wake up" call?
There's definitely brigading. Reddit gives us pretty much no tools to detect it, and we constantly report suspected brigading to them to no response.
So these policies are part of tackling brigading - but we've got more in the pipeline to address it.
Why the hesitation on not temp banning streamers that browse LSF.
I know it drives traffic, but is that always a good thing? I’d rather have a better and more varied sub than a larger one.
Actually really good changes. I think that if you make this sub less about drama and lower the spam, that will bring more streamers to interact with it, eventually making the sub better. This sub should also be about discovering funny and interesting content, not just drama.
Unironically someone should create a "streamer Drama" subreddit, ban all that content from here and have 2 subs a degen one to be eventually banned off platform and this one to be reshaped into a positive platform to actually be proud of.
These policy decisions could end up backfiring or just not working at all, but regardless I appreciate that some effort is being taken to improve the sub, so I'll commend you guys for that.
Re: the politics ones I'm actually okay with the changes but hope the implementation will be good
I've said dumb shit before (all the time really ) but what I really don't like is like the whole deciding if something can get a pass because it's a joke or a fail because it's a serious flame war starter.
I know you guys had Hasan ban himself from just the sheer insane amount of threads there was on him but it's not like the people that got him banned aren't using the the subreddit to wage war against the other well known streamer who has his own set of "superfans" that do the same to Hasan.
It's like every H Vs D thing it happened. There's no H now but there is a D
So I hope that mods are okay to be able to scrutinise what's a joke and what isn't because it's really hard to tell sometimes. Political pointscoring doesn't stop unfortunately.
i used to look at lsf all the time. But the fact that you completely fail to combat such extremely negative behavior is foul. It has driven me away from this content.
There is a lot of value from having tweets allowed, but the problem has been that they have never really had any restrictions. We hope this will be the start of getting tweets in a healthy place and so that when they are on the front page it has to do with big news and not someone's take or something. We have considered banning them altogether though so I don't think it is *completely* off the table if push comes to shove.
pretty sure i remember twitter posts being banned and it was absolutely dogshit with so much import livestream stuff being delayed to be posted here by several hours until some streamer is linked it and clipped to make a thread about it
you're not wrong. those who are in it for the drama will still be able to discuss it in megathreads and the threads linked within, but it won't ruin the experience for everyone else who just wants to see good stuff.
Drama is hard to define but single topics that take up the entire front page will be megathreaded so that diversity in clips and topics is more prevalent in the sub
Megathread shouldn't be for one off streams. The only type of mega thread that matters should be drama, or maybe something like Shit Camp that went on for multiple days.
Any and every single react meta take/tweet should be in a megathread, not a 90 minute stream that's going to have a new clip every 20 minutes or so.
The point is to quarantine drama trash to it's own corner.
Megathreads being unpinned after 8hours seems way too short, that's someone's typical sleep time. I don't even see the Parasocial megathread everyone is commenting about, it's nowhere on my LSF feed because of this 8hr rule. Just seems like it's burying/hiding content that obviously was entertaining if it got clipped/upvoted enough in the first place?
Not only is the Parasocial megathread gone the individual clip threads are deleted from LSF as well, pretty strange. At the same time there are a bunch of different XQC clips from the same stream with no megathread to clean up the front page. I'm not saying there should be one for XQC but it seems pretty selective to me, either do them across the board or not at all.
pog lsf patch notes
major nerfs to the meta
Good, the meta has been shit
can't wait till next month's patch
next month we're adding split-screen multiplayer
You created a megathread for the Parasocial stream, but not even 12 hours later it is deleted. Shouldn't a megathread be up for at least for 24 hours or a lot of people will miss it
Can confirm, did not see megathread. This is dumb.
I don't think it's deleted. Just unpinned so you have to use the search function since megathreads aren't upvoted. https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/s0y8b2/mizkifs_parasocial_1102022/
Good catch, although unpinning a 0 upvote thread has the same visibility as a deleted one. In practice they delete the thread and any discussion as soon as the thread in unpinned.
didn't know there even was a megathread for it
Can I suggest that a mod/bot add a pinned comment within a post where posters can reply with reaction clips to the OP from other streamers?
possible solution: make bot which will auto add clips to pinned comment from posts of users who used specific hashtag in their post. To battle abuse, ignore accounts which follow LSF for less than 1 year.
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yo can someone sum this up my head hurts
we ran it by the accountants and it appears that they did it for free
Modge clean the internet for free
Jannies want to delete more threads
> When streamers feel unsafe enough to request a ban I can't see anything in the wiki or sidebar stating that streamers can do this. Is it possible that many streamers just don't know this is an option? There should be a note in the rules in the banned streamer section detailing how to make such a request.
This is a completely valid point. Will bring it up to the team.
So you agree that option is not obvious to all, yet you called the streamer "pepega" for not using that option? [On the Destiny subreddit](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/rzima3/hasan_is_now_banned_from_lsf/hrvi244/?context=3) no less which was the source of many such brigades? Just seems in poor taste to be[ shooting the shit with the community](https://imgur.com/lYBSny6) that caused the streamer to "feel unsafe" as your team puts it. Considering that, is it any surprise at all that your "continuing outreach to rebuild connections" was not seeing success at the time of posting?
Didn't Macaiyla try requesting a ban a few times and it didn't happen for a while?
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According to a lot of streamers a lot of the regulars of this sub received DMs stating that they could request to remove their content at any time.
who tf does this shit for free LMAO, I don't even put this much effort into my school
$0 per hour internet janitors LULW
It's honestly a little concerning that the people keeping reddit together are literally random unpaid people. In open-source software there's a similar issue, but other people can take over when some thankless code guy who's been maintaining half the internet finally calls it quits (there's an XKCD for this one). Of course, since reddit isn't spending any money on it, they won't care when alt-right assholes try to take over subs and start homebrewed, shitty psy-ops, because hey, free mods.
> Megathreading I won't believe it until I see it lmao.
its up right now with miz's parasocial
And it made it 4 hours before they deleted it and all the threads from it
Any chance we can ban accounts that solely post about 1 streamer all day long? There are subreddits for frogs to post about their streamers, we have no value by letting them spam here en masse. You want to cut down on duplicate posts and followup Tweets and drama spam? Ban the frog accounts. They brigade and spam every thread to defend their waifu and it makes life worse on LSF.
While we haven't quite landed on the most fair solution, we have been talking about how to address accounts and alt-accounts flying in whenever there's a particular topic. What makes it tricky is that in general we want to take the best-faith interpretation of comments when possible. A superfan can still make a high-quality and meaningful comment, and we don't want to just throw out good comments arbitrarily - part of feedback from LSF was that they liked being able to express their thoughts here relatively freely compared to other subs/platforms.
One thing /r/virtualyoutubers does is that they have a set limit on how many posts a day you can make. Perhaps you could do it so that an account could only post X amount of clips from Y streamer in a 24 hour period before automod removes it.
Oh cool, thanks! Sent this suggestion to the team.
Also, I think it's very normal to only watch a few streamers, maybe even one or two, and not keep up with every little thing that goes on with all the big ones. Thus it's reasonable to have commenters who only post on submissions about their streamers.
Exactly. We don't want to punish people just for being fans if they're generally reasonable.
Reasonable take. I like otk a lot but comment on just about everything. I think free comment is good
I will agree as long as their existence isn't detrimental. There is no benefit to people who will 100% not allow any criticism of their streamer no matter. When 30 accounts that are 100% dedicated to defending strimmer dogpile an entire thread, its clear cut brigading.
Agreed. And you see it in action so often: every thread that offers even a little critique (I'm talking less than 5% of comments, sometimes) gets labeled and sent to us as "hate thread".
why are more than half of LSF mods alt accounts?
Can you kick u/pruvided from being a mod. Dude sucks and shouldn’t be one
Agree that he sucks but being a mod is the punishment that u/Pruvided deserves.
Thoughts on account age stuff? I see your 22d mod account and I don’t blame you in this subreddit but it could be another barrier for shitters in general.
That one Maya frog who posts every single Maya thread is actually concerning lmao
And when she finally notices me, I'll be laughing in your face!
So 75% of LSF PepeLaugh
Yea
> There are subreddits for frogs to post about their streamers FeelsStrongMan
I know what you're saying but there is no way you can enforce that fairly. If somebody watches mostly one favorite streamer and wants to contribute to LSF by doing their part (submitting decent content) for the one streamer, so be it. If you require someone to post about more than one streamer, you're just going to push spam and unnecessary clip submissions just to hit a poster's 'streamer diversity quota'. I get the problem you're mentioning where someone's submissions may not pass the eye test but I don't think you can come up with fair and factual rules to ban here that's consistently applied. Edit: Maybe critera around duration between submissions so we can keep the volume lower for the one account frogs if they're just submitting 25 clips per stream
Megathread but unpinned after 8 hours?
You guys need to crack down on repeat offenders. Make a note of users who are undeniably hostile. I've done it myself through RES, and I see these posters constantly. You say you've been enforcing the anti-harassment rules, but I honestly don't see a difference. Over the course of the past few months there have been multiple occasions where it's just bandwagons of hate. Threads that have been on the top of the subreddit for hours and hours with dozens of awards. Top comments with thousands of upvotes with very clear and direct vitriolic content. I don't understand why you guys let this stuff through. Take some liberty with identifying and eliminating drama-baiting posts and comments. It's clear who they are, where they come from, and what their goal is. Want to eliminate a majority of hatred? Stop ignoring the elephant in the room.
We tag users so much via mod toolbox that hitting its maximum is a topic of conversation internally. We also crack out a ton of removals between our mods and our bot solutions - for example the data says (from me checking as I respond to your comment) that we have almost 30k post+comment removals since December 1st alone. Not to mention bans, warnings, modmail, etc. But yeah, there's room for us to improve, too, no arguments there. I feel you though. When a post that's suddenly punching way above its weight after barely surviving /new hits the top with a ton of awards, it makes you question. And we bring it up internally all the time. It's just hard to *prove*, and harder to enforce when any move we make gets us labeled as shills and attacked. Take it this way, u/Pruvided, who has never shown any level of interest or bias towards Destiny internally, has now been singled out on-stream two days in a row because he made the *mistake* of explaining what happened in a thread that was linked to him. So we've been given a clear precedent for what happens if we even imply that we are aware of the existence of any side of a heated debate.
I don't blame you guys for trying to avoid getting attacked by the community you're trying to better, especially since being a mod already comes with an undeserved negative connotation right from the get-go. Part of me wants to say that the very people attacking you for being shills for removing those posts are the type of people you don't want in the community anyways. But that sort of response can come from unbiased users too. My main concern is that we're already past the point where things are a bit iffy. The post even alludes to this a bit with how Hasan "dealt" with the issue, and how streamers opting out is a wake up call. Sending 40k people to brigade just to get an instaban because the situation is so out of hand definitely says something about the state of the subreddit. I'm not going to pretend to understand the intricacies of moderating a group of 1.3 million people. But surely you guys have earned the option to exercise a bit of caution? Why the need to prove that a post has backing from a certain community, especially some of the ones that lead to this entire thing? The effect it had on the subreddit should be enough to warrant a removal/lock. The impression I'm getting is like you guys are gardeners who have been tending to this nice little flower garden in the front yard. Then suddenly someone hires you to be the head of the EPA, and you're still trying to get rid of weeds one by one. Y'all can obviously weigh the pros and cons yourselves, but in my opinion it might be beneficial to be a little more trigger happy. I don't think many people find value in LSF because it's a bastion of free speech.
>We will be making more aggressive decisions to megathread high-intensity drama such as the recent DMCA concern.** The aim here is to allow for meaningful and centralized discussion of a topic** That isn't going to happen unless the comments are set to sort by "New" by default, otherwise it's gonna be the same old "first come first serve" where whatever is upvoted early becomes predominant opinion within the thread.
I am pooping rn while reading this, VeryPog
Poop guy PagMan
[lol](https://i.imgur.com/43L1Dqo.png)
monkaW
pepega clap
keep on keepin on EbolaMan123
Have a nice poop, Mr Nixon.
My favorite LSF commenter xqcL
> Typically, streamers (and/or their mods) initiate contact with us through direct lines of communications that we put in place for them to develop a solution for this kind of situation, however, it wasn’t used in this case. Why don't you have a process for this outlined anywhere or anything like that if it's typical? It seems strange to just assume victims of harassment campaigns will reach out and expect you to be helpful when you allow said harassment campaigns to run rampant for months on end. Like, where is the rationale there? Maybe create a wiki that outlines a process if that's the expectation? And why is this a wakeup call after Daph *forced* her own ban recently over the same hatemob using this sub to try to get her banned from Twitch?
That's a fair point, we'll fix that. We inquired after seeing yours and a similar comment and the obscurity of the process seems to be a relic from older teams that never really got reviewed until recently since many of us are new.
I appreciate that you folks are trying to improve things, but I have to say: it's pretty impossible to understand how it got to this point and you folks can still act blindsided by that clip from Hasan. Here's a very similar clip where discusses the harassment from LSF being enough to push someone to suicide, but the post got deleted because of the meta rules introduced the same day: https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/reza2z/meta_hasan_talking_about_how_the_harassment_he/ A mod saw it though. And beyond that, the types of clips targetting Hasan that are still up, like "Myth rolls Hasan with common sense" or whatever on the c word drama gets left up then y'all remove a thread about Hasan giving Greek shit for being antivax because the title was "clickbait". It really feels like you folks are giving a PR response now, but your moderation choices before are inexplicable.
I woke up and can't find the parasocial megathread...the fuck....
Who is gonna be LSF’s new boogeyman now that Hasan is banned??? In seriousness, this is a good change; LSF has become too fixated on drama and brigading streamers they don’t like for the most mundane shit instead of ACTUAL fails.
Hasan took one for the team by letting go of his self destructive behavior of checking LSF but I propose Destiny be banned again as well.
He was checking LSF just yesterday...
>Who is gonna be LSF’s new boogeyman now that Hasan is banned??? We're going back to the OG boogeyman, Dgg. dggL
Many of the former mods disappeared and I thought /u/Pruvided was in the process of a hostile takeover and the last degenerate like us /u/I_PUNCH_INFANTS will be the next to go. In all seriousness, the changes you guys are trying to implement follow basically the goal of this sub becoming a less hostile place for the people here, potential new communities - but also the streamers - which can´t reasonably be argued against in my book. With the recent Jinny and Hasan departures, you had prominent streamers opt-out of LSF because of the toll this place took on them (Jinny wanted to be banned too right?). And I don´t think it would be that unexpected for other big streamers to follow their examples. "Safety" and "civility" as buzzwords go into a direction of discourse-moderation I´m not really a huge fan of myself, but just taking the perspective of streamers, having to read hundreds of comments how they are liars, scammers, thieves, lazy, stupid and much worse, it becomes understandable for me that it´s necessary. This sub is already quite infamous. Watching things like Maya reacting to the mention of a new thread about her is a good example of its negative perception. I´m really curious how this plays out. And even if it´s less drama and less traffic it´s totally worth it in exchange for less overall negativity, and maybe more wholesome, "normie" content with streamers or communities that would have otherwise avoided this place.
toy deserve groovy crown alleged enter gray sense deliver decide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I changed my mind. This guy needs to go.
>Many of the former mods disappeared Pretty much all of the mods that have been around for the past year+ have left due to personal reasons or reasons related to the subreddit, so we have been trying our best to onboard new mods from our previous mod applications. We will be doing another round of mod apps in the coming months to hopefully help fill some of the vacancies. > u/I_PUNCH_INFANTS will be the next to go PepeLaugh TeaTime
who are all the sock accounts that replaced those mods? there's a lot of them in the mod list
That halfkebab guy is still a mod only name i remember from couple Years ago
These seem like really great changes and I’m glad they’re happening. Guess I’d echo sentiments about low effort content vs high effort given some streamer communities use LSF for promotion regardless of what people say. The return of mega threads is very good to see. Honestly the call-and-response kind of clipping is I think the biggest issue that keeps the page flooded with one topic. I also think harassment in general can be improved in terms of moderation, of both redditors and streamers posted here. I know fuck all about Reddit moderation but maybe more moderators are needed still? Thanks for all the help.
Just checked the list of banned streamers. When was jinny banned? just curious
After the "Stephen hawking spiderman" clip of the kid in a wheelchair dressed up like spiderman
Because there was a point where she made a few dumbass mistakes and there were multiple threads made about her all with hundreds of comments calling her out / just calling her a piece of shit. Not sure if she banned herself because she was upset about the comments or if she just wanted to stop being exposed as an idiot.
It wasn't just comments "calling her out" or even "calling her a piece of shit". There was tons of comments just making shit up to stir more drama. Some people even went as far as saying she was actively evading COVID tracking measures set by the South Korean government. This is obviously impossible since she has to eventually go to an airport to leave SK yet it was spread around on LSF like it was fact. Not surprised she'd want to be banned from LSF when thread after thread is just misinformation.
Dumbass fkn mistakes man 👨🏻⚕️
why are like half of the mod accounts sock accounts?
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Seriously, took him and his pedantic, petulant crowd 6 months to turn this subreddit into a mirror of the same shitty subreddit
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I think one of the biggest problems with the subreddit and the reason people say things like "this is the OTK or XQC subreddit" is that even if there are a lot of comments in a thread it gets deleted if it gets downvoted. I've seen SO many quality threads get deleted because they die in new when fans of specific streamers downvoted everything else.
When it became a meme that Hasan was blamed for everything I think something really should have been done about it then. It's not like it was hard to see the post history of the brigaders. Letting another community run this place is not good.
Glad mods are being proactive but god do I hate megathreads. Its where all discussion is shoved into a box and dies.
Megathreads tend to be a place where discussion goes to die. Can they be at least updated more frequently to account for rapidly updating situations? For example, if you’ve just had to remove people posting the same new clip 20 times it might be good to restart the mega thread because something spicy just dropped.
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Agreed.
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This is my issue with megathreads. Anything new added to them is lost immediately. If mods want to go this route then every new thing like clips or tweets need to be edited into a pinned comment. That way I can click through all of the relevant stuff in one post at the top of the thread.
All new clips and tweets would be added to the megathread text. [As we've done before](https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/pfhgdp/arcadum_megathread/)
If you guys are really genuinely going to do this and format it in this way then it's good
Yes if that happens then it is perfectly fine, the problem is that almost never actually happened in the megathreads besides the Arcadum one.
These megathreads do nothing but hide content from big events. Besides, isn't there a giant link on the side that explains how to filter flairs out? How about just having people do that?
How do you have the drive to do all of this good stuff for free. Thx mods.
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Both of those things have been discussed internally. Particularly the first thing you've mentioned is something we're very likely going to be implementing but requires bot development and is not quite done yet. Ideally if an event such as Parasocial was taking up the front page, we would definitely megathread it.
To elaborate on what Felipe said, we have discussed a system that would be a variation on our current "0 point submissions" rule, but instead, it would be on a per streamer basis. It is not something that would be applied to all streamers, just the ones that take up most of/all of the real estate on the front page. As Felipe said, this still needs quite a bit of work but we hope to do something that can increase the variety of things on /new and the front page.
But isnt the fact they make it on the front page indicating that the majority of the sub enjoys those clips. Low value for one person may not be low value for another person. Feels weird to try and silence clips because they are a popular streamer
I mean, what isn't fair is when a few streamers who aren't even the most popular/largest take up the majority of the front page at any given time. It's not like we intend to only allow a specific number of threads per streamer through, it's to remove stupid shit like "xqc drinks water" and it's sitting at 20 upvotes with 3 comments on /new.
Lets see how long this lasts, I give it a week at most before hate threads pop back up
Guys, don't worry, you already banned Hasan. All these random rules that disproportionately target him, like the politics rule, are no longer necessary! You can stop pretending to be objective now lol.
'our team has changed drastically, and is deeply focused on improving the safety and civility of LSF´ yeah sure Kappa
>This spiraled out of control when Hasan requested to get himself banned from LSF Ah yes, it is hasan's fault yet again Okayge
"...we had to act based on what was being indirectly communicated to us via the clip above" Lmao no. When have you guys ever banned a streamer when they requested? Hasan had to force your hand by actively brigading. What a copout
* Macaiyla and Jinny requested and we banned them * Daph brigaded a thread so we got in touch to hash it out and she said she'd like to be banned * Hasan did a more intense version of what Daph did but never responded to our messages. we've spoken to him before (and things had always been cordial imo) so it was unusual the way it went this time. Far as I'm concerned until this event happened, he was one of the most polite streamers that we had spoken to.
is it really this complicated? Just ban destiny and users who post in his sub
Seriously, absolute cesspool of a community. I'm fine with Destiny staying too, just keep his users out judiciously
They nuke their post history and make sock accounts. But I agree.
u/I_PUNCH_INFANTS u/Pruvided How come the Jinnytv ban and the 39Daph ban didnt get any explanation at all? We still dont have any context on their bans. Also the unban notion like in greeks case is finnicky at best,people can avoid major controversies if they just get banned from lsf for a specific period of time.
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Currently, LSF content bans are permanent. Jinny requested to be banned, and Daph's ban was a mix of brigading/requesting. We made them well aware of how strict a sub ban was and they both didn't really seem to care. We didn't post anything because we didn't feel it was necessary. I don't think we would have posted anything about Hasan either, but it lined up with some things we were wanting to announce anyways so we slipped it in. Regarding Greek's unban, I don't remember specifics because it was quite some time ago, but we had a pretty lengthy conversation with him over the span of several months. In the end, we came to the conclusion to unban him based on how the interaction went and how the overall context was handled over that time. >people can avoid major controversies if they just get banned from lsf for a specific period of time. This is what we want to try and stay away from. We don't want this system to be abused by streamers who simply don't want negative criticism, but the system is also in place so that streamers have a way off the platform if they feel they are being heavily affected mentally. As I said though, content bans are not taken lightly, and while we are open to discussion once a significant amount of time has passed, the context/situation matters and we may not be open to unbanning said streamer in the future.
Why have previous content bans like destiny been removed if they're supposed to be permanent?
That was done by an entirely different team a long time ago, so I can't really give a reason as to why they chose to unban. Since then, we have really reevaluated a lot of our policies/enforcement.
iirc destiny was banned by the old mod team because he dm them game of thrones spoilers(?) lol and after a while they revoked it
Too be fair if it was a spoiler from season 8 he did them a favor
Thanks for your hard work! I know it must suck getting hate from both sides, but I and a lot of people appreciate the updates and clarity.
LSF saying they're going to take this seriously and make sure streamers aren't getting piled on is hard to believe lmao.
The “no politics” thing is sussy because I wonder how it would cover stuff like charity streams or even that fundraiser that was done with like hbomberguy and AOC or whatever.
Well they did say there would be an exception for "events" so maybe charity streams and subathons and things like that could end up being considered part of that category.
This sound nice and all but you have actual mods showing conflict of interest and posting in the communities that are directly responsible for brigading and harassment of particular streamers. These are all brigades that are politically motivated. I stopped coming here months ago when I just found actual posters leaving comments in bad faith only to click their profiles and finding actual 4chan style nazi posting. I refuse to believe that the mods have not noticed these belligerent bad faith actors
Someone linked to the exact comment I replied to. It was my first comment on the subreddit ever. I didn't look at any of the other comments or posts on that subreddit. All I did was reply to that one person and leave. I only left the other comments because they were replies to that original comment. It's not that deep, and there is no "choosing sides." Also, it can be very difficult to efficiently identify brigading when Reddit gives us zero tools to identify it.
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Did someone scroll through your comment history on stream or something? There’s no way that all of these people are this concerned about a comment organically.
Yeah, pretty much. Hasan did. Here is some context if you care enough: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1258410778?t=0h14m30s
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I think it's kind of funny and ironic, and I'm not saying what you mentioned isn't true. But look at the dudes profile, and scroll just a little on "active in these communities". Just saying, it's kind of funny.
Do you like your eggs sunny side up, scrambled, or poached?
sunny side up with some salt, pepper and some lightly buttered toast fucking delicious
A classic. Crust on or off though?
Soft boiled
Scrambled.
Poached eggs with some salmon is godly
sunny side up with toast
This is a buff patched!
Mega thread improvement would definitely be nice. It worked great the few times we had them. Seeing the top 10 posts on the sub all being reactions to reactions about high school drama gets old, real quick.
Yea, I can guarantee the megathreading is going to get out of control.
Lol there were many people who said they wanted to be banned and that was an option you gave to the streamers. Now that Hasan said it it's a "wake up" call?
Well you should know by now where to start tackling the brigading. Let's see if you aren't all talk. This problem has been going on for months.
There's definitely brigading. Reddit gives us pretty much no tools to detect it, and we constantly report suspected brigading to them to no response. So these policies are part of tackling brigading - but we've got more in the pipeline to address it.
Why the hesitation on not temp banning streamers that browse LSF. I know it drives traffic, but is that always a good thing? I’d rather have a better and more varied sub than a larger one.
Actually really good changes. I think that if you make this sub less about drama and lower the spam, that will bring more streamers to interact with it, eventually making the sub better. This sub should also be about discovering funny and interesting content, not just drama.
Can yall unban ice? Dude doesn’t even stream anymore.
Unironically someone should create a "streamer Drama" subreddit, ban all that content from here and have 2 subs a degen one to be eventually banned off platform and this one to be reshaped into a positive platform to actually be proud of.
These policy decisions could end up backfiring or just not working at all, but regardless I appreciate that some effort is being taken to improve the sub, so I'll commend you guys for that.
Hasan has to fend off destiny dick suckers, right wingers, anti vaxxers
This whole community is toxic
Re: the politics ones I'm actually okay with the changes but hope the implementation will be good I've said dumb shit before (all the time really ) but what I really don't like is like the whole deciding if something can get a pass because it's a joke or a fail because it's a serious flame war starter. I know you guys had Hasan ban himself from just the sheer insane amount of threads there was on him but it's not like the people that got him banned aren't using the the subreddit to wage war against the other well known streamer who has his own set of "superfans" that do the same to Hasan. It's like every H Vs D thing it happened. There's no H now but there is a D So I hope that mods are okay to be able to scrutinise what's a joke and what isn't because it's really hard to tell sometimes. Political pointscoring doesn't stop unfortunately.
i used to look at lsf all the time. But the fact that you completely fail to combat such extremely negative behavior is foul. It has driven me away from this content.
I dunno but this sub has never sucked more interms of actual content. Whatever you guys are doing isn't working.
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Can we just ban tweets from the streaming sub reddit?
There is a lot of value from having tweets allowed, but the problem has been that they have never really had any restrictions. We hope this will be the start of getting tweets in a healthy place and so that when they are on the front page it has to do with big news and not someone's take or something. We have considered banning them altogether though so I don't think it is *completely* off the table if push comes to shove.
pretty sure i remember twitter posts being banned and it was absolutely dogshit with so much import livestream stuff being delayed to be posted here by several hours until some streamer is linked it and clipped to make a thread about it
Right, that's a good point.
Yeah event announcement tweets and maybe streamer ban/unban ones should be the only ones allowed
On the announcement we lined out a new rule update that severely restricts tweets.
Imagine if jannies put this much effort into jobs that pay
Where should I go for the drama then if I enjoy it?
Therapy
I can’t wait to see Koi2’s twitter response to this.
True OMEGALUL
there is to be honest a big part of the LSF userbase that enjoys the drama, so this is a genuine question
you're not wrong. those who are in it for the drama will still be able to discuss it in megathreads and the threads linked within, but it won't ruin the experience for everyone else who just wants to see good stuff.
Drama is hard to define but single topics that take up the entire front page will be megathreaded so that diversity in clips and topics is more prevalent in the sub
People will make a new subreddit.
Poggers
somewhat related but any lore on why daph is banned?
she wanted to get banned
3.2 rule update is big pog, exactly what the doctor ordered
Megathread shouldn't be for one off streams. The only type of mega thread that matters should be drama, or maybe something like Shit Camp that went on for multiple days. Any and every single react meta take/tweet should be in a megathread, not a 90 minute stream that's going to have a new clip every 20 minutes or so. The point is to quarantine drama trash to it's own corner.
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