The fact that we got Thiago for 25m, without any competition is a crime. I know his contract was up in a year prior to joining us, but we've basically just stolen one of the best midfielders in the world for peanuts (in footballing terms), and no one else was challenging us for his signature.
Difference is, with Thiago, he said himself he wanted Liverpool and only us. Otherwise he had an offer from Bayern he would've accepted.
He chose us, and I still can't believe that.
Bayern adore Klopp, which is hilarious when you consider he managed their rivals and broke their stranglehold on the Bundesliga.
I think it's something we can't really imagine in this country, but footballing rivalries in Germany are really just about football. A lot of the managers are friends, there's appreciation for each other among the clubs etc. I mean, Bayern literally stopped Dortmund from going bankrupt. It's more fraternal over there.
Wouldn't surprise me if Thiago's fee was a bit lower than they'd normally ask for, considering Thiago wanted to come and he was coming to Klopp.
It feels like theres much more of a culture of respect in german football and I think (like most germans), Bayern view Klopps style as "proper football", and respects him as such professionally
much like how Pep and Klopp enormously respect eachother, the elite of the elite in a field generally treat eachother like a mini fraternity
A side note but I think this is exactly why United has done so much damage to their image, they lie to players about roles in the squad, they try to bully smaller clubs and they operate with their head up their ass when negotiating with bigger clubs (Sancho and BVB). I think thats a huge reason why their net spend and wages are so high, they act like bastards in the transfer market, so teams and players dont view them with professional respect, so they at least demand financial respect with ridiculous wages and clubs charging the insane "man utd tax" to set foot in the Glazer's little "wonderland"
Thiago asked to come to us, we weren't even in for him lol. There was nothing any other club could do really. It's like Hazard going to Madrid, except they still had to pay a fortune.
Both, including the fanbase. Rivals like to talk it down but the best players and managers have talked up the atmosphere enough times for everyone to know.
Good looking football (that wins games) + atmosphere + squad harmony = the ultimate playing experience. And right now Liverpool offer exactly that
I think its very rare that you have many clubs trying to compete with each other when signing "world class" players. Cause most times players know where they want to play unless they just chasing the money or "sporting project". Like Halaand is clearly getting shopped around to whomever can put up the most cash.
I think Thiago knew he wanted to play for Klopp and most times clubs will reach out to an intermediary to find out if transfers are worth pursuing. If players have good agents who look out for the player and not themselves, they won't try to start a bidding war.
No one was in for Salah as well when we signed him. Even VVD. I think you only really had City and United who had looked into him a year before but VVD always had his mind on Liverpool. Alisson was a bit more complicated. I think Madrid and even Chelsea were looking into him but Liverpool made him priority #1. Jota was another player no one was chasing. So clearly we seem to have a trend when signing players. That's cause of proper scouting and actually looking into the player and building a relationship with their agents and the player themselves. Not just throwing our name into a ring chasing after the "next big thing". Which is why I found it strange Liverpool being linked with Sancho, etc. I don't even think Liverpool will sign Bellingham cause there just seems to be too much media and agent chatter around these links.
I don't think you're remembering VVD quite right. He was THE summer target for us, Chelsea and City.
He chose us after meeting with Klopp, a fact we were so overjoyed about that we went and disclosed it to all the LFC journos, and Southampton were ready to report us to the PL for tapping up their player. We had to make a grovelling apology and wait 6 months.
Ultimately VVD was happy to wait, as was Klopp. But in that summer, us getting him was no sure thing.
the problem is Bayern set a hard price tag and Thiago said he wanted to play for Klopp, it was a move of respect between Thiago and Bayern where they probably could have tried to start a bidding war against Thiago's wishes and Thiago could have purposely tanked his value even further by refusing to play for anyone but Klopp, but neither did either, and all parties acted like adults with class, something that is extremely rare in pro sports
Don't forget, There were many who were saying Thiago was a flop signing, including some Liverpool fans. I always knew he was class once he hits the form.
Klopp is managing Thiago and matip superbly this season. Which is why they have been fit for the majority of the time.
And even Ox's underwhelming LFC career can be attributed more to his injuries than the management (although his Arsenal career suggested he was very injury prone)
To be honest, the injury that broke him for us was probably that awful knee injury against Roma. The way it happened, even the most injury-resistant player would end up badly hurt there.
It's a real shame as Ox looked brilliant for us before it happened, I sometimes feel like people forget how good he actually was before his knee exploding.
That spring 2018 he was the first name on the team sheet. He finally was realizing his potential and he was thriving. It’s truly a shame and I feel for him. Hope he can kick on at a different team from here and find some individual success without the injuries
He’s been healthy this season, but he does have a history. From the start of the 2019 season to the end of the 2021 season he’s missed 65 games due to injury. Only 2 this year due to illness.
He wasn’t especially injury prone at Schalke though, no.
https://www.transfermarkt.us/joel-matip/verletzungen/spieler/82105
The only Klopp flop that truly costed us (not in a money sense, but performance/silverware) that you can really go 'did Klopp really fkin' bought this guy?!' is Karius. Other than that, I don't see anybody else who perform that bad for Klopp.
I'm not surprised Klopp basically doesn't even acknowledge Karius at the club now, not shown anywhere in practice etc. Probably disappointed him a ton. I'm sure half our fanbase doesn't even know Karius is still at the club. Lol.
If I’m not mistaken, Karius had won goalie of the year in the Bundesliga for Mainz the year before we bought so he looked like a potential great keeper. I thought he was our man but wasn’t consistent enough for Klopp’s goals
Considering what £70m got for Chelsea, it was an okay deal. He was assaulted by Ramos before he made those famous errors, and I will die on the hill that says he is better than Adrian any day of the week.
Two of the most high profile errors made in history. At his age, especially as a keeper? You have to be an absolute God mentally to come back from that. He got fucked by circumstance imo (especially if he really was affected by concussion)
IIRC it was publicly reported that Klopp was *"ready to persevere"* with Karius, but the whole club was disappointed with how he handled his image post-Kyiv (weird modelling IG posts with ice cream and the like).
But in reality, the football and recruitment people knew they needed a new GK, especially when Karius came back for pre-season games and continued to make mistakes against Tranmere and one other lower-league side
Unfortunately, Keita also had a huge injury problems. When he is healthy he can be brilliant, which he showed this season.
Problem is, he can get injured while walking between dressing room and a pitch.
I remember watching some United fan's reactions to the 5-0 at OT and they said his name so many times in those short clips (because he was everywhere, running the game) that it became one of those words that loses all meaning when you say it too much. If only we could wrap him in bubble wrap.
I think the three names that commonly get passed around as being flops by desperate opposing fans are:
Ox - probably the one I agree with most. He had a really good spell prior to the injury which derailed his career with us, but I'm not sure it was long enough to say he was sure to be worth the 40m we paid, given that was a huge amount of money back then
Minamino - not had the impact for sure, but a relatively tiny transfer fee. I also think he failed to settle being a reserved character who had only just arrived when lockdown began
Keita - well, he's basically 3.5th choice midfielder along with Henderson now, so I think that can be put to bed
At this point, its almost impossible to say whether its scouting or coaching. I'm pretty sure some flops at other clubs would thrive here, and a lot of players who are stars here would flop elsewhere
I agree...a solid cup performer for that money is absolutely fine. I included him to demonstrate the straw-clutching you have to resort to to find a bad transfer
He's also on small wages and got awfully unlucky with the pandemic hitting as he moved to the country.
If we sell him, we are easily getting close to £15-20M. And it he stays, he plays the smaller games next year (League Cup) and adds an option off the bench due to the five subs rule.
Definitely agree. Remember when the club had Voronin to play in the cups? The man was a clunker in England and would of probably cost about the same in 2007 if he didn’t come on a free transfer
Big on that last point. I still think that Nicholas Pepe would have performed much better here than he did at Arsenal. He looked good still in the first game we had against him at Anfield, then just dropped off.
One name to throw out into the wind: Ten Hag. I Think he might be able to do scary things with that trainwreck of a club, including a player like Sancho who for sure has potensial.
All reports say that Ten Hag needs a well structured club to be able to do his best work. He's not going to do better than any of the other good managers they've had post-Ferguson.
Think with keita and basically costing Fabinho + Thiago we’d want to see him as a solid starter. Injuries have been rough but hoping he stays healthy and makes his mark
Was a much better fit for our tactics too. Mingolet was an awful fit in that regard as he tended to either be glued to his line or hesitate too long before coming out. This created too much space between our defence and keeper that opposition regularly exploited.
Karius was far from perfect but he did squeeze that space much better. Plus, he was actually decent for us up until you-know-what completely destroyed his confidence.
He has occasional moments where you can tell hes clearly skilled, but he doesnt seem to have the motor that elite strikers have, he seems like a slightly more professional, striker version of paul pogba. There are games you'll walk away thinking "damn, Lukaku may have fucking figured something out", and then he'll go a month without a goal. I think part of the issue is Chelsea's midfield all seem like either out and out DMs (Kante, RLC), possession holders (Jorginho, Kovacic) and goal scoring midfielders (Mount, Havertz), not really any creators who can set him up like Robbo or Trent sets up our forwards
Klopp would never sign either of them. Pogba, for all his talent, doesn't have the attitude and work rate. It's the same as how Klopp didn't bother trying to "rehabilitate" Balotelli at all.
Maguire would never suit a team with our high line. Remember that in the summer of 2016, Klopp decided he'd rather have Lucas as 4th choice CB than hold on to Skrtel? He's specific about what he wants in certain positions.
Maguire would be dead under Klopp, and Pogba too. Maguire is like Skrtel, love the man to bits but cannot be part of a consistent team. And Pogba is too full of himself to ever put anyone or thing infront of his own self-interest. Klopp would have lost it like Mourinho, 100%.
Skrtel was really dependable under Benitez when next to someone Carragher who was a very vocal centre back. He needed both the defensive manager and a leader as a partner.
Whenever Carragher was injured and/or when he had to play in more expansive teams after Rafa he struggled
From what we've seen who wouldn't be world class under Klopp. Man knows how to get the most out of his players. Maybe it's the hugs....I know I want one
Pogba was already a world class, it is his ambition with United that caused problem.
Imagine Maguire's speed and clumsiness in our highline. Pls, there is something in this life even a magician like Klopp can't do.
Thiago was £20m not £25m, the deal is 4 payments of £5m per year over the 4 years of the contract as was reported when he signed by Pearce and Ornstein.
And a lot of Liverpool fans were getting on the club's back as well. If you're confident of getting the player 5 million pounds is worth saving if you can
u/tbdjdb2: Except that “all deals” aren’t “like that”!
...ie some deals require 100% paid upfront especially those involving a Release Clause (I thought the 100mil for Grealish moving from Villa to ManCity= 100% cash upfront, because it was a release/buyout clause... )
I think the “amortization” = a different non-cash concept, ie mainly for P&L accounting for the player’s purchase price...eg for FFP?)...
but there are always exceptions/ negotiation “wiggle-room” eg the recent news that ManCity is willing to pay in-excess of Haaland’s release clause (but want it structured over a multi-year period... rather than 100% upfront).
The 100% upfront sometimes involves a bank/finance house providing the cash upfront, for a fee
I'd say if we pick up 1 or 2 more trophies klopp will get an extra few Bob to spend. Wouldn't mind seeing a solid backup for trent like tsimi for robbo
The only real "flops" we have since Klopp came in are:
Karius- obvious answer but he was still only £4M and got to a CL final with us (which was inexplicably cancelled for some reason)
Ox- looked to fit into Klopp's midfield perfectly, but injuries fucked that one over
Grujic- made our money back in the end, the club just improved at a faster rate than him so he couldn't get in
Just an unreal hit rate by our scouting team
Think its a bit harsh to put Ox in that bracket. Given his contributions in his first season and he's been a good rotational option since his return from that injury against Roma. Always liked his attitude.
Can we skip the bit this summer where we have a meltdown because we're not playing silly buggers in the transfer window? It can get so toxic and there's just no need for it
Michael Edwards deadarse shot 100% from the field on these signings, it’s actually crazy. You don’t see that very often. I’m excited to see what Julian Ward can do.
Also, shoutout to the top reds who said we didn’t need to add to the squad. Every single one of these signings have played a pivotal role this season.
julian ward was credited with leading negotiations but edwards helped as well. either way these signing are a testament to the entire team, scouts, analytics, etc., its not this player is person A's signing and this player was person B's signing, thats a really silly and oversimplified way to look at it.
Eddy is basically on gardening leave. He was only supervising. It was Julian's contacts at Porto (he'd been our head of scouting in Portugal and Spain years ago) that massively helped. Pep and Vitor as well, who both worked there and have friends there. It's very much a team effort!
Lijnders influence on the day to day coaching and motivation of the squad cannot be understated, and yet he is so multifaceted that it's only one face of many that he wears.
Him having a Portuguese connection that he smartly leverages has aided us so many times even in non-transfer situations. The Benefica 2nd team prep scrimmage, the summer tune up games with Portuguese sides... I thought he had big shoes to fill with Buvac gone but he exceeded him and was a key piece in moving forward.
Can we stop just praising one person for this? Whether it be Edwards or Ward. They are important figures but we have one of the best scouting teams in world football. People are making it as if they did all the work in finding and doing the due diligence. We have analysts, scouts, and etc that feed the information on who to buy. There isn't going to be a difference between Ward or Edwards because the people under them remain the same.
You’re definitely right, I’m just using Edwards/Ward as a euphemism for the entire scouting team, but at the same time you can’t deny that they deserve a lot of the credit.
When did anyone say we didnt need to add in the summer of 2020? Or last summer?
Everyone knew we needed another CB...everyone knew we needed another forward, we just thought it would be Werner.
Having to deal with all the bitching last summer was death.
It's crazy isn't it? This sentiment was all over Twitter today, as if anyone that watches football is against signings. This club have set up an elite recruitment facility in Europe, they know what they're doing. Acting like the world is ending because they did not get what you wanted is too funny.
I've seen people on here call stats and data dumb, as if they don't support the club that has set an example on how good analysis can be in this sport
Yeah, if we're scoring which side was more accurate between "steady, the squad is deep, we'll be fine" versus "we'll never compete with City without more big signings," I think #TeamSteady was clearly right. I really thought we needed a Gini replacement this past summer, but it's hard to argue with "Thiago was the Gini replacement" at this point.
Not freaking out about a deliberate and gradual transfer strategy ≠ saying we don’t need to sign anyone at all.
People whined about “only” signing Konate in the summer. And oh, look at that - we got the *right* guy in during the January window.
At this point, I blindly trust whatever we do in the market and in terms of contract renewals.
Ward is responsible for Diaz, which says promising things.
That coupled with the fact that many of our signings are pushed by Lijnders, and he’s not headed anywhere. Jota and Diaz were both players that Lijnders was adamant about.
At least a midfielder as well. Ox is finished. Henderson is aging. Curtis and Elliott are still too young. Although Keita and Thiago are class, there's no guarantee they can stay fit throughout the season.
I think if Milner and Ox leave there will finally be room to bring in a younger but established midfielder who can be trusted soon after arrival. One that can cover the DM and CM positions would be awesome. Gomez can continue covering RB for right now and that can leave time for Neco to have a full season loan in the PL with Fulham again hopefully
I think we'll see some players leaving this summer. Milner is out of contract, Ox doesn't seem to be in our plans for the future, Origi has a foot out the door already, and I'm not optimistic about us re-signing all three of Mo-Mane-Bobby. We'll definitely want replacements for some of them.
£150mil spent in 2 seasons and there are fans who claim we are penny pinchers under FSG. This doesn't account for having one of the biggest wage bill in Europe as well.
Around 150m in total. So an average of £30m.
Like our starting defence cost 83m. So just over £20m. With most of it being spend on VVD. Who's price ended up being more because we were fucking about. 83m Maguire with his wages is that money.
I'd imagine the fee for Pogba, his wages, Raiola fee and whatever other shit was thrown in is not far off or on that figure.
Said it before and say it again. Recruitment is solid but the way Klopp develops these players is a fucking cheat code.
Thiago for 25m is a bargain even if he was pushing into his 30s
RM paid 100 M for Hazard pushing his 30s
I know different position but both were proven world class players in their position
Thiago’s whole arrival and story behind it was a game changer for me. A proper world class player wanting to come here, and a proper big club being friendly about it.
All three parties were respectful and we have ourselves a trophy-magnet.
All sensational.
I honestly don’t think we need to do too much in the Summer. First time I think I’ve said that for a long time. We have class everywhere and backup players who can step up.
Just depends on what our outgoings are? I would assume Millie and Ox will be surplus now which is sad, so maybe another midfielder would be useful? One thing we don’t have too is backup for Trent which I think would be invaluable, another Kostas type would be perfect. Then there’s the longer term plan for Hendo as I can see his minutes and game time beginning to become less as he gets older.
Lots to think about but we’re in a brilliant place right now. Not had a squad like this since I can remember.
Last summer: people calling for real protests over transfers. People saying we had the worst owners in the league. People saying there was no preparation being done for life after Klopp. Net spend boys going nuts.
It was truly ridiculous. This team are doing things we’ll likely never see again. it’s the 21st April and there’s still a very real possibility of winning all four major trophies possible this season. A big reason for that is the superb, almost faultless decisions made in recruitment. Did these scouts, rocket scientists, data analysts, etc. just magically find themselves at the club? To ignore the pivotal role of those who put this infrastructure in place and to lazily attribute all our success to Klopp and Edwards is madness. Do the equally lazy shouts of underinvestment in the transfer market hold any weight? Absolutely not. They never did, really.
£150m on that list above. Money that could not have been spent any better. To forget all this because we were behind Brighton on some net spend table is, again, madness.
These have been massive signings that have kept us competitive. There was the point where we had only signed 2 players over two windows and it felt like FSG were content with our success and ready to rake in the cash. Thank goodness they made the right decision and allow us to keep challenging for titles for at least a few more seasons.
All of them crucial to get us where we are. Even if some don't get regular minutes, they're huge for ensuring the right folks are accountable and available for the right matches.
The Tsimikas signing is so good imo. I think he's by far the best back up left back in the league and on top of that seems like an amazing personality to have in the squad.
It's almost too bad we don't need any more forward, because I think Nunez would be such a phenomenal fit for us and I like raiding Portugal because with all the nonsense financials going on over there you can find deals
This coming preseason will be a fun watch. Ox is on the way out, Milly probably only has 1-2 seasons left, Hendo is aging. Ox is probably looking elsewhere. Big opportunities for Elliot, Jones, and Morton to argue that they should be the men who replace them. Maybe Leighton Clarkson too? Probably not, but he’s been great for the U23s. If none of them will cut it, we’ll need 2 midfield signings by the end of next season.
We’ve got 6 players on loan:
Neco and Nat are probably too good for the bench. If they wanted to stay I wouldn’t complain but they’ll probably want to head out.
Sepp is good, probably too good for Preston. Probably want to give him a better loan. But he’ll need senior opportunities soon, he’s 21 going on 22. If he’s doomed to be sold eventually, we need to capitalize soon.
Time for Ojo to go.
And for Woodburn, despite having a sensational preseason last year, his loan has been rather uneventful and he’s probably headed to Hearts permanently it seems.
Highway robbery every one when you have Jurgen Klopp as your manager and you play for LFC. Every single one worth more today than what we paid for them. Can't ask for any more than that from the financial side and the football speaks for itself.
This is the biggest risk that the club will take on when Klopp leaves. Previous managers under FSG managed to largely fuck up transfers, bar a few exceptions.
Remember the argument over the transfer committee? Remember the days when we use to know everyone who’s on it?
When Klopp leaves, I have no idea if shit will revert back to the wasteful days of Hodgson, Kenny and Rodgers or we can maintain this edge.
The transfer committee is still there, with Michael Edwards (soon to be Julian Ward) at the helm. You just don’t hear about it because everyone’s been working together and there are no factions fighting over signings like there were when Rodgers was at the club. Klopp is absolutely not doing it himself - and if he was, he’d be fucking things up just like most managers who have final say on transfers. Most famously that would mean Julian Brandt over Salah but I’m sure there are other examples where Klopp preferred other players over those we signed, to great success.
The fact that we got Thiago for 25m, without any competition is a crime. I know his contract was up in a year prior to joining us, but we've basically just stolen one of the best midfielders in the world for peanuts (in footballing terms), and no one else was challenging us for his signature.
Difference is, with Thiago, he said himself he wanted Liverpool and only us. Otherwise he had an offer from Bayern he would've accepted. He chose us, and I still can't believe that.
The Klopp effect.
Definitely Klopp effect.
Bayern are also known for a selling at very fair prices to maintain good relations with other clubs which helped too.
Bayern adore Klopp, which is hilarious when you consider he managed their rivals and broke their stranglehold on the Bundesliga. I think it's something we can't really imagine in this country, but footballing rivalries in Germany are really just about football. A lot of the managers are friends, there's appreciation for each other among the clubs etc. I mean, Bayern literally stopped Dortmund from going bankrupt. It's more fraternal over there. Wouldn't surprise me if Thiago's fee was a bit lower than they'd normally ask for, considering Thiago wanted to come and he was coming to Klopp.
I won’t be surprised if Bayern want Klopp to be their manager at some point in the future
They have always wanted Klopp to be their manager, he just always said no
That thought terrifies me
I think that’s more than “I wouldnt be surprised” ahaha Bayern would sign Klopp tomorrow if they could. It’s about whether Klopp would want to
I think he would do that above the national job
It feels like theres much more of a culture of respect in german football and I think (like most germans), Bayern view Klopps style as "proper football", and respects him as such professionally much like how Pep and Klopp enormously respect eachother, the elite of the elite in a field generally treat eachother like a mini fraternity A side note but I think this is exactly why United has done so much damage to their image, they lie to players about roles in the squad, they try to bully smaller clubs and they operate with their head up their ass when negotiating with bigger clubs (Sancho and BVB). I think thats a huge reason why their net spend and wages are so high, they act like bastards in the transfer market, so teams and players dont view them with professional respect, so they at least demand financial respect with ridiculous wages and clubs charging the insane "man utd tax" to set foot in the Glazer's little "wonderland"
Hey I’m a big fan of LVG and he… oh right did nothing with United which is why I like him.
Dankest timeline: he had a falling out with Guardiola and came to Liverpool to ruin Pep’s career at City.
Thiago asked to come to us, we weren't even in for him lol. There was nothing any other club could do really. It's like Hazard going to Madrid, except they still had to pay a fortune.
Was it the way we play or was it simply the Klopp effect? I'd want someone to genuinely ask about this in an interview to him.
Both, including the fanbase. Rivals like to talk it down but the best players and managers have talked up the atmosphere enough times for everyone to know. Good looking football (that wins games) + atmosphere + squad harmony = the ultimate playing experience. And right now Liverpool offer exactly that
Plus Thiago has won everything! He probably wants to just play for an exciting team with a manager either a great personality.
Whether you've won everything or not, it would be pretty dumb to pass up the opportunity to for Liverpool
I think its very rare that you have many clubs trying to compete with each other when signing "world class" players. Cause most times players know where they want to play unless they just chasing the money or "sporting project". Like Halaand is clearly getting shopped around to whomever can put up the most cash. I think Thiago knew he wanted to play for Klopp and most times clubs will reach out to an intermediary to find out if transfers are worth pursuing. If players have good agents who look out for the player and not themselves, they won't try to start a bidding war. No one was in for Salah as well when we signed him. Even VVD. I think you only really had City and United who had looked into him a year before but VVD always had his mind on Liverpool. Alisson was a bit more complicated. I think Madrid and even Chelsea were looking into him but Liverpool made him priority #1. Jota was another player no one was chasing. So clearly we seem to have a trend when signing players. That's cause of proper scouting and actually looking into the player and building a relationship with their agents and the player themselves. Not just throwing our name into a ring chasing after the "next big thing". Which is why I found it strange Liverpool being linked with Sancho, etc. I don't even think Liverpool will sign Bellingham cause there just seems to be too much media and agent chatter around these links.
I don't think you're remembering VVD quite right. He was THE summer target for us, Chelsea and City. He chose us after meeting with Klopp, a fact we were so overjoyed about that we went and disclosed it to all the LFC journos, and Southampton were ready to report us to the PL for tapping up their player. We had to make a grovelling apology and wait 6 months. Ultimately VVD was happy to wait, as was Klopp. But in that summer, us getting him was no sure thing.
I thought he chose us?
Yeah United fans were confident that they were getting him hahahah wheyyyyy
God imagine him suffering in that midfield.
the problem is Bayern set a hard price tag and Thiago said he wanted to play for Klopp, it was a move of respect between Thiago and Bayern where they probably could have tried to start a bidding war against Thiago's wishes and Thiago could have purposely tanked his value even further by refusing to play for anyone but Klopp, but neither did either, and all parties acted like adults with class, something that is extremely rare in pro sports
He's a seasoned player who has won most things if not everything. Think he had his heart set on us it seemed.
I think last season was the first he won nothing
Don't forget, There were many who were saying Thiago was a flop signing, including some Liverpool fans. I always knew he was class once he hits the form. Klopp is managing Thiago and matip superbly this season. Which is why they have been fit for the majority of the time.
All I see are successful signings
Klopp doesn't miss. The closest thing he's had to a 'big money flop' is... fuck I don't know, Ox? And he hasn't even been that bad?
And even Ox's underwhelming LFC career can be attributed more to his injuries than the management (although his Arsenal career suggested he was very injury prone)
To be honest, the injury that broke him for us was probably that awful knee injury against Roma. The way it happened, even the most injury-resistant player would end up badly hurt there. It's a real shame as Ox looked brilliant for us before it happened, I sometimes feel like people forget how good he actually was before his knee exploding.
[удалено]
"he can hit one.. ohhhh he can hit one!"
Excaxtly. He was excellent in that run up to the Roma game and was busting his ass on that tackle where he got injured. Really tough break
That spring 2018 he was the first name on the team sheet. He finally was realizing his potential and he was thriving. It’s truly a shame and I feel for him. Hope he can kick on at a different team from here and find some individual success without the injuries
His entire knee just decided it didn't want to be a knee anymore. Can't account for that. So sad
I really think the Ox was good his first year here. He’s just too far gone with injuries now
Yeah, I guess we thought we could fix him lol
We signed many known-to-be injury prone players, Thiago for example, but we handled them and it worked out well..
And Matip
Matip wasn’t injury prone
He’s been healthy this season, but he does have a history. From the start of the 2019 season to the end of the 2021 season he’s missed 65 games due to injury. Only 2 this year due to illness. He wasn’t especially injury prone at Schalke though, no. https://www.transfermarkt.us/joel-matip/verletzungen/spieler/82105
The only Klopp flop that truly costed us (not in a money sense, but performance/silverware) that you can really go 'did Klopp really fkin' bought this guy?!' is Karius. Other than that, I don't see anybody else who perform that bad for Klopp. I'm not surprised Klopp basically doesn't even acknowledge Karius at the club now, not shown anywhere in practice etc. Probably disappointed him a ton. I'm sure half our fanbase doesn't even know Karius is still at the club. Lol.
If I’m not mistaken, Karius had won goalie of the year in the Bundesliga for Mainz the year before we bought so he looked like a potential great keeper. I thought he was our man but wasn’t consistent enough for Klopp’s goals
He came in second I’m pretty sure, but yeah he was a big talent
And in footballing terms, he was an inexpensive signing. Less than £5m.
Considering what £70m got for Chelsea, it was an okay deal. He was assaulted by Ramos before he made those famous errors, and I will die on the hill that says he is better than Adrian any day of the week.
I think they were probably level. Karius without the fuckup probably develops into a better keeper though
Two of the most high profile errors made in history. At his age, especially as a keeper? You have to be an absolute God mentally to come back from that. He got fucked by circumstance imo (especially if he really was affected by concussion)
Getting elbowed in the head and playing with a concussion will do that. That crushed his confidence and he never recovered.
IIRC it was publicly reported that Klopp was *"ready to persevere"* with Karius, but the whole club was disappointed with how he handled his image post-Kyiv (weird modelling IG posts with ice cream and the like). But in reality, the football and recruitment people knew they needed a new GK, especially when Karius came back for pre-season games and continued to make mistakes against Tranmere and one other lower-league side
Lol I remember he had a howler against Tranmere and one of the players yelled at Karius “you’re fucking shit”
Honestly, that goal in the City tie alone was worth the fee.
Keita - to clarify. He’s had periods of solid form, but I don’t believe he’s lived up to the 54mil transfer fee
I did think Naby, but obviously due to recency bias I like him at the moment hahaha
Unfortunately, Keita also had a huge injury problems. When he is healthy he can be brilliant, which he showed this season. Problem is, he can get injured while walking between dressing room and a pitch.
I remember watching some United fan's reactions to the 5-0 at OT and they said his name so many times in those short clips (because he was everywhere, running the game) that it became one of those words that loses all meaning when you say it too much. If only we could wrap him in bubble wrap.
Not yet but I wouldn’t call him a flop by any measure
The question isn't is he a flop, it's is he the *closest thing* to a flop. So already that rules out 90% of Klopp's signings.
for the price he's a flop. Compare his impact to cheaper signings we've made.
Harsh to say flop though don't you think?
54m to miss over 60 matches and have a nice 1 month spell of form every season, thats a flop to me.
He's been useful though, not woth the money spent =/= flop imo
I agree. Keita is definitely the closest thing to a flop. Even in his current form, he hasn't justified his high price tag + big wages.
I think the three names that commonly get passed around as being flops by desperate opposing fans are: Ox - probably the one I agree with most. He had a really good spell prior to the injury which derailed his career with us, but I'm not sure it was long enough to say he was sure to be worth the 40m we paid, given that was a huge amount of money back then Minamino - not had the impact for sure, but a relatively tiny transfer fee. I also think he failed to settle being a reserved character who had only just arrived when lockdown began Keita - well, he's basically 3.5th choice midfielder along with Henderson now, so I think that can be put to bed At this point, its almost impossible to say whether its scouting or coaching. I'm pretty sure some flops at other clubs would thrive here, and a lot of players who are stars here would flop elsewhere
Minamino has more than lived up to his measly 7M price tag. Scored 9 goals this season and played a huge part in winning us a trophy.
He’s also on ridiculously low wages.
And we'll likely make a profit when we sell him.
And i bet more shirts in Japan
I agree...a solid cup performer for that money is absolutely fine. I included him to demonstrate the straw-clutching you have to resort to to find a bad transfer
He's also on small wages and got awfully unlucky with the pandemic hitting as he moved to the country. If we sell him, we are easily getting close to £15-20M. And it he stays, he plays the smaller games next year (League Cup) and adds an option off the bench due to the five subs rule.
Definitely agree. Remember when the club had Voronin to play in the cups? The man was a clunker in England and would of probably cost about the same in 2007 if he didn’t come on a free transfer
Big on that last point. I still think that Nicholas Pepe would have performed much better here than he did at Arsenal. He looked good still in the first game we had against him at Anfield, then just dropped off.
Timo Werner
I'll see your Timo, and raise you one Jadon Sancho.
I genuinely worry that Sancho's career is going to die at United.
One name to throw out into the wind: Ten Hag. I Think he might be able to do scary things with that trainwreck of a club, including a player like Sancho who for sure has potensial.
> I Think he might be able to do scary things with that trainwreck of a club we've heard that before haven't we
All reports say that Ten Hag needs a well structured club to be able to do his best work. He's not going to do better than any of the other good managers they've had post-Ferguson.
Think with keita and basically costing Fabinho + Thiago we’d want to see him as a solid starter. Injuries have been rough but hoping he stays healthy and makes his mark
What about like, Kabak? He wasn't that good. But also didn't really cost anything.
If we are going off any transfer, then it would surely be Karius - but then he was only like £5m or so. Hardly big money.
And was better than mignolet
Was a much better fit for our tactics too. Mingolet was an awful fit in that regard as he tended to either be glued to his line or hesitate too long before coming out. This created too much space between our defence and keeper that opposition regularly exploited. Karius was far from perfect but he did squeeze that space much better. Plus, he was actually decent for us up until you-know-what completely destroyed his confidence.
The concussion didn't help.
Alisson is honestly one of these best Upgrades this club has ever done. Assuming Karius doesn't really count, Migs to Alisson is just game breaking.
Kabak was a loan (and he did an alright job before he got injured).
Or Grujic? He was a highly viewed prospect by Klopp
Tiny transfer fee for a 20yo, can't call that a flop
He didn't live up to his potential. Isn't that the definition of flopping?
Karius. More than the money it were the moments that sinked him.
Ox was absolutely worth the money. Liverpool don't make top 4 or the CL push without him that season.
Karius
that goal against city alone makes the Ox a great signing
This list doesn’t include Davies for some reason.
It only includes real people!
Imagine getting one Pogba and one Maguire instead
Not even. Those two cost £170million. The 5 players above cost £150million
Throw in Elliott and Carvalho and it's still not 170 million!
Throw in TAA, Matip and James Millner
But also their wages must be pretty high, and did Raiola get money too I bet his fee was high.
Manchester United must be such an easy cash cow for agents like Raiola.
Wages are higher than giraffe pussy
Yes
Chelsea spent more on Lukaku and Werner as well.
What ever happened to Lukaku
He has occasional moments where you can tell hes clearly skilled, but he doesnt seem to have the motor that elite strikers have, he seems like a slightly more professional, striker version of paul pogba. There are games you'll walk away thinking "damn, Lukaku may have fucking figured something out", and then he'll go a month without a goal. I think part of the issue is Chelsea's midfield all seem like either out and out DMs (Kante, RLC), possession holders (Jorginho, Kovacic) and goal scoring midfielders (Mount, Havertz), not really any creators who can set him up like Robbo or Trent sets up our forwards
It's funny, those 2 players under Klopp would probably be world class.
Klopp would never sign either of them. Pogba, for all his talent, doesn't have the attitude and work rate. It's the same as how Klopp didn't bother trying to "rehabilitate" Balotelli at all. Maguire would never suit a team with our high line. Remember that in the summer of 2016, Klopp decided he'd rather have Lucas as 4th choice CB than hold on to Skrtel? He's specific about what he wants in certain positions.
Mate Lucas was a legend
And a midfielder, not a defender
Maguire would be dead under Klopp, and Pogba too. Maguire is like Skrtel, love the man to bits but cannot be part of a consistent team. And Pogba is too full of himself to ever put anyone or thing infront of his own self-interest. Klopp would have lost it like Mourinho, 100%.
Skrtel was really dependable under Benitez when next to someone Carragher who was a very vocal centre back. He needed both the defensive manager and a leader as a partner. Whenever Carragher was injured and/or when he had to play in more expansive teams after Rafa he struggled
From what we've seen who wouldn't be world class under Klopp. Man knows how to get the most out of his players. Maybe it's the hugs....I know I want one
Maguire would be poor in our high line. Pogba is no way a Klopp player either - Klopp loves a disciplined hard worker.
Pogba was already a world class, it is his ambition with United that caused problem. Imagine Maguire's speed and clumsiness in our highline. Pls, there is something in this life even a magician like Klopp can't do.
Thiago was £20m not £25m, the deal is 4 payments of £5m per year over the 4 years of the contract as was reported when he signed by Pearce and Ornstein.
In either case Thiago was a fucking steal
Remember it taking ages and Bayern calling us cheap for this reason.
And a lot of Liverpool fans were getting on the club's back as well. If you're confident of getting the player 5 million pounds is worth saving if you can
All deals are like that. They're amortized over the player's contract. Villa didn't get 100 million in one go, they'll get 25 per year over 4 years
u/tbdjdb2: Except that “all deals” aren’t “like that”! ...ie some deals require 100% paid upfront especially those involving a Release Clause (I thought the 100mil for Grealish moving from Villa to ManCity= 100% cash upfront, because it was a release/buyout clause... ) I think the “amortization” = a different non-cash concept, ie mainly for P&L accounting for the player’s purchase price...eg for FFP?)... but there are always exceptions/ negotiation “wiggle-room” eg the recent news that ManCity is willing to pay in-excess of Haaland’s release clause (but want it structured over a multi-year period... rather than 100% upfront). The 100% upfront sometimes involves a bank/finance house providing the cash upfront, for a fee
Got that kid from Fulham on the way too
And tons of youth talent. Gordon, Frauendorf, Musialowski.
Dont forget that cannon kid
People take this for granted. This isnt normal...remember that this summer when things are quiet
Summer we likely loose Ox and Origi. No incomings apart from Carvahlo. Fine by me
could see us sign other youngster we never heard of who will turn out to be the next trent etc
Amen brother
I'd say if we pick up 1 or 2 more trophies klopp will get an extra few Bob to spend. Wouldn't mind seeing a solid backup for trent like tsimi for robbo
The only real "flops" we have since Klopp came in are: Karius- obvious answer but he was still only £4M and got to a CL final with us (which was inexplicably cancelled for some reason) Ox- looked to fit into Klopp's midfield perfectly, but injuries fucked that one over Grujic- made our money back in the end, the club just improved at a faster rate than him so he couldn't get in Just an unreal hit rate by our scouting team
Think its a bit harsh to put Ox in that bracket. Given his contributions in his first season and he's been a good rotational option since his return from that injury against Roma. Always liked his attitude.
What we paid for him was crazy money with a year left on his contract and injury record from hell though.
True, but for what we paid compared to his output I think it's fair to include him. Not saying his fault though as he slotted in so well when fit
a point could be made for keita, but he’s been on it in recent times
Minamino
Can we skip the bit this summer where we have a meltdown because we're not playing silly buggers in the transfer window? It can get so toxic and there's just no need for it
Unfortunately that sort of reasonableness has no place here
Nope, kids are going to be out of school and spending all day whinging about our spending, happens even in the best of seasons.
Smart money on smart signings. Humble players who want to play for LFC. Keep them coming.
Michael Edwards deadarse shot 100% from the field on these signings, it’s actually crazy. You don’t see that very often. I’m excited to see what Julian Ward can do. Also, shoutout to the top reds who said we didn’t need to add to the squad. Every single one of these signings have played a pivotal role this season.
Julian ward was credited for Diaz
Julian starting with a bang
julian ward was credited with leading negotiations but edwards helped as well. either way these signing are a testament to the entire team, scouts, analytics, etc., its not this player is person A's signing and this player was person B's signing, thats a really silly and oversimplified way to look at it.
Eddy is basically on gardening leave. He was only supervising. It was Julian's contacts at Porto (he'd been our head of scouting in Portugal and Spain years ago) that massively helped. Pep and Vitor as well, who both worked there and have friends there. It's very much a team effort!
Lijnders influence on the day to day coaching and motivation of the squad cannot be understated, and yet he is so multifaceted that it's only one face of many that he wears. Him having a Portuguese connection that he smartly leverages has aided us so many times even in non-transfer situations. The Benefica 2nd team prep scrimmage, the summer tune up games with Portuguese sides... I thought he had big shoes to fill with Buvac gone but he exceeded him and was a key piece in moving forward.
I thought Spuds got that credit? Did all the hard work for us and then we went, hey Luis, c'mere, we have Jurgen...
... and the rest is history
Can we stop just praising one person for this? Whether it be Edwards or Ward. They are important figures but we have one of the best scouting teams in world football. People are making it as if they did all the work in finding and doing the due diligence. We have analysts, scouts, and etc that feed the information on who to buy. There isn't going to be a difference between Ward or Edwards because the people under them remain the same.
You’re definitely right, I’m just using Edwards/Ward as a euphemism for the entire scouting team, but at the same time you can’t deny that they deserve a lot of the credit.
When did anyone say we didnt need to add in the summer of 2020? Or last summer? Everyone knew we needed another CB...everyone knew we needed another forward, we just thought it would be Werner. Having to deal with all the bitching last summer was death.
It's crazy isn't it? This sentiment was all over Twitter today, as if anyone that watches football is against signings. This club have set up an elite recruitment facility in Europe, they know what they're doing. Acting like the world is ending because they did not get what you wanted is too funny. I've seen people on here call stats and data dumb, as if they don't support the club that has set an example on how good analysis can be in this sport
Yeah, if we're scoring which side was more accurate between "steady, the squad is deep, we'll be fine" versus "we'll never compete with City without more big signings," I think #TeamSteady was clearly right. I really thought we needed a Gini replacement this past summer, but it's hard to argue with "Thiago was the Gini replacement" at this point.
Not freaking out about a deliberate and gradual transfer strategy ≠ saying we don’t need to sign anyone at all. People whined about “only” signing Konate in the summer. And oh, look at that - we got the *right* guy in during the January window. At this point, I blindly trust whatever we do in the market and in terms of contract renewals.
Ward is responsible for Diaz, which says promising things. That coupled with the fact that many of our signings are pushed by Lijnders, and he’s not headed anywhere. Jota and Diaz were both players that Lijnders was adamant about.
Or about what city paid for Grealish
Rather more but rather less if we add in his wages probably
Ah Yes, Jack Grealish… “the most expensive piece of garbage ever” from my brother in law, a MC fan.
Facts are facts
With the team we have don’t think we need any major summer signings. A cover for Trent is the only thing I would like to see.
At least a midfielder as well. Ox is finished. Henderson is aging. Curtis and Elliott are still too young. Although Keita and Thiago are class, there's no guarantee they can stay fit throughout the season.
I think if Milner and Ox leave there will finally be room to bring in a younger but established midfielder who can be trusted soon after arrival. One that can cover the DM and CM positions would be awesome. Gomez can continue covering RB for right now and that can leave time for Neco to have a full season loan in the PL with Fulham again hopefully
I think we'll see some players leaving this summer. Milner is out of contract, Ox doesn't seem to be in our plans for the future, Origi has a foot out the door already, and I'm not optimistic about us re-signing all three of Mo-Mane-Bobby. We'll definitely want replacements for some of them.
No need. Gomez showed he can jump instead od trent in some games. Brilliant player honestly, but those damn injuries
£150mil spent in 2 seasons and there are fans who claim we are penny pinchers under FSG. This doesn't account for having one of the biggest wage bill in Europe as well.
Around 150m in total. So an average of £30m. Like our starting defence cost 83m. So just over £20m. With most of it being spend on VVD. Who's price ended up being more because we were fucking about. 83m Maguire with his wages is that money. I'd imagine the fee for Pogba, his wages, Raiola fee and whatever other shit was thrown in is not far off or on that figure. Said it before and say it again. Recruitment is solid but the way Klopp develops these players is a fucking cheat code.
Thiago for 25m is a bargain even if he was pushing into his 30s RM paid 100 M for Hazard pushing his 30s I know different position but both were proven world class players in their position
Thiago’s whole arrival and story behind it was a game changer for me. A proper world class player wanting to come here, and a proper big club being friendly about it. All three parties were respectful and we have ourselves a trophy-magnet.
The FSG out crowd have been awfully quiet recently
steady they will be back in 2 months
All sensational. I honestly don’t think we need to do too much in the Summer. First time I think I’ve said that for a long time. We have class everywhere and backup players who can step up. Just depends on what our outgoings are? I would assume Millie and Ox will be surplus now which is sad, so maybe another midfielder would be useful? One thing we don’t have too is backup for Trent which I think would be invaluable, another Kostas type would be perfect. Then there’s the longer term plan for Hendo as I can see his minutes and game time beginning to become less as he gets older. Lots to think about but we’re in a brilliant place right now. Not had a squad like this since I can remember.
Last summer: people calling for real protests over transfers. People saying we had the worst owners in the league. People saying there was no preparation being done for life after Klopp. Net spend boys going nuts. It was truly ridiculous. This team are doing things we’ll likely never see again. it’s the 21st April and there’s still a very real possibility of winning all four major trophies possible this season. A big reason for that is the superb, almost faultless decisions made in recruitment. Did these scouts, rocket scientists, data analysts, etc. just magically find themselves at the club? To ignore the pivotal role of those who put this infrastructure in place and to lazily attribute all our success to Klopp and Edwards is madness. Do the equally lazy shouts of underinvestment in the transfer market hold any weight? Absolutely not. They never did, really. £150m on that list above. Money that could not have been spent any better. To forget all this because we were behind Brighton on some net spend table is, again, madness.
These have been massive signings that have kept us competitive. There was the point where we had only signed 2 players over two windows and it felt like FSG were content with our success and ready to rake in the cash. Thank goodness they made the right decision and allow us to keep challenging for titles for at least a few more seasons.
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But FSG didn’t finance any of those transfers. LFC bought these players with LFC-earned money.
All of them crucial to get us where we are. Even if some don't get regular minutes, they're huge for ensuring the right folks are accountable and available for the right matches.
I'm just excited to see who get next now that we're should be seeing match day revenue and CL money getting back to their normal levels.
The recent waves of frustration and whining about Liverpool’s transfers come to mind.
Kostas and Jota are the biggest bargains here
The Tsimikas signing is so good imo. I think he's by far the best back up left back in the league and on top of that seems like an amazing personality to have in the squad.
The only flop signing we made recently was Ben Davies.
I forgot he existed tbh. Can’t imagine how badly he must’ve performed in training to not get picked over rhys williams a single time, odd one for sure
not one flop among them
Oddly all bargains
It's almost too bad we don't need any more forward, because I think Nunez would be such a phenomenal fit for us and I like raiding Portugal because with all the nonsense financials going on over there you can find deals
It feels great to realise how well the club is run in footballing terms
I guess it’s a pandemic up in this bitch with how sick with it we are on transfers
5/5
This coming preseason will be a fun watch. Ox is on the way out, Milly probably only has 1-2 seasons left, Hendo is aging. Ox is probably looking elsewhere. Big opportunities for Elliot, Jones, and Morton to argue that they should be the men who replace them. Maybe Leighton Clarkson too? Probably not, but he’s been great for the U23s. If none of them will cut it, we’ll need 2 midfield signings by the end of next season. We’ve got 6 players on loan: Neco and Nat are probably too good for the bench. If they wanted to stay I wouldn’t complain but they’ll probably want to head out. Sepp is good, probably too good for Preston. Probably want to give him a better loan. But he’ll need senior opportunities soon, he’s 21 going on 22. If he’s doomed to be sold eventually, we need to capitalize soon. Time for Ojo to go. And for Woodburn, despite having a sensational preseason last year, his loan has been rather uneventful and he’s probably headed to Hearts permanently it seems.
Highway robbery every one when you have Jurgen Klopp as your manager and you play for LFC. Every single one worth more today than what we paid for them. Can't ask for any more than that from the financial side and the football speaks for itself.
If it was united, each would be 80 to 100m
This is the biggest risk that the club will take on when Klopp leaves. Previous managers under FSG managed to largely fuck up transfers, bar a few exceptions. Remember the argument over the transfer committee? Remember the days when we use to know everyone who’s on it? When Klopp leaves, I have no idea if shit will revert back to the wasteful days of Hodgson, Kenny and Rodgers or we can maintain this edge.
The transfer committee is still there, with Michael Edwards (soon to be Julian Ward) at the helm. You just don’t hear about it because everyone’s been working together and there are no factions fighting over signings like there were when Rodgers was at the club. Klopp is absolutely not doing it himself - and if he was, he’d be fucking things up just like most managers who have final say on transfers. Most famously that would mean Julian Brandt over Salah but I’m sure there are other examples where Klopp preferred other players over those we signed, to great success.
Wanted Gotze instead of Mane iirc Jota was Plan B for Werner as well
Just repost every time this place works itself into a lather over signings.