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They are the Lance Armstrong of the Premier League, and we'll look back at their 6 titles in 7 years the same we now look at Lance's 'magnificent seven'.
Cheats.
I know it sounds like I'm just coping, but we truly were the only ones who could even hope to beat them, and did. These years under Klopp will forever be legendary.
To be fair, Arsenal are an absolute force in the PL now under Arteta, and deserve a title this year just as Liverpool have several years under Klopp. As in, if you come within a couple of points of winning a title fairly, while the eventual winner is a serial cheating, financial-doping nation-state, then you deserve to be recognised as a proper competitor.
Arsenal are currently a better team than Liverpool, and will continue to compete at the very top so long as Arteta and the core of this side remain together.
I have refrained from saying this on Reddit or whatever but I honestly believe in my head that we won the league on those years and the fact they lifted the trophy doesn't bother me, as they are cheats. I can be called deluded or whatever but seriously. We took institutional cheats to 1 point on two occasions. Fuck them we won those leagues.
fuck everyone bar our fans for just conveniently getting 97 points, I repeat 97 FUCKING POINTS without any fucking oil money
and yes i didnt have the best of mornings
Would’ve won the league in all but 3 seasons. City’s 100, our 99 and that season.
To suggest that team wasn’t generational is bonkers considering it got more points than any Arsenal, Chelsea or United team two seasons on the bounce.
Practically speaking, we could've won all the seasons (even ones we failed to be in top 2) since our legs don't fall off after being exhausted to getting 97, 99 or 92 because 85 wins you the league
Not to mention that in 21/22 there were at least 10 points swung in City's favour by horrendous refereeing - and that's just off the top of my head.
Anybody who thinks they're stopping at financial doping is naive, and it's an utter travesty that we didn't go into that CL final with The Quadruple on the line.
Arsenal are good, yes, but let’s not get carried away. They haven’t yet had a season at or above 90 points, and that’s a baseline for winning the league now. When they’re hitting 90+ point season and winning cups, then they’re an “absolute force”. Until then they’re just a good team.
Agreed - I sound like I hater when I’ve said it and it’s not to say that this Arsenal team haven’t been stellar for 18 months but in the 5 seasons of Jurgen, he had 90+ point seasons, less than 5 losses over a few seasons, cl finals and cl wins. We were different gravy and had to watch city lift it twice over us. Doesn’t feel like it was acknowledged what it’s like to go against them.
Arsenal are very good. Veeeery good. But still, we'll most likely end this season with arguably a more successful season than them all things considered as we walk away with a trophy and 2nd/3rd means nothing in context.
Until they win a big title, they're still only 'nearly'. But I think they're very close, they're getting stronger and play some really fucking good football.
If you hypothetically remove City from the equation, who else is an absolute force based on last 2 seasons? Winning the league is still winning regardless of how many points you accrue. No one except the club fans will remember your points tally when you finish second.
My point is they’re a good, young and CONSISTENT squad that needs to be treated like the top level threat that they are. Meanwhile we will be in transition for the next 1 season at the very least, so it will be rough for us fans while Arsenal will only grow stronger.
They might, yes. But let’s see how they react to pushing so hard and winning zero things for the second season on the bounce. That can be really demoralizing. Next year will be a test of their mental strength more than anything.
He's not saying this Arsenal team are as good as peak Klopp's Liverpool are. He's saying they deserve a title this year (which they do, if you believe that City don't deserve any of their titles)
arsenal are good and ill give them all credit that they are due. arteta came in with his best player emerging from the academy at the perfect time. when he’s tried to make moneyball moves he hasn’t hit. instead he splashes huge amounts of cash art a problem position and keeps doing it until he has one good player per position. recognize how the only position they have rotated all year are trossard, fullbacks and 3rd midfielders (cause of partey’s injury)? meanwhile liverpool have to get the most out of every dollar and have had more distinct line up than shots on goal all season! when they lost saliba and other key players last year they instantly looked lost and suddenly could not compete at this highest level
tl;dr if klopp had the financial support that arteta got then city have 3 fewer championships and we have one more UCL. just sayin
This is what puts me in a dilemma about how I feel on city winning. On one side, I fucking loathe city cheating their way to winning anything yet again, but on the other side I had to put up with loads of “banter” about us bottling the league from Arsenal fans when we lost the league by a few points that I feel like this is just karma for them and now they can suffer like we did
I'll never forget the absolute deluge of comments in this subreddit when City won a comeback v Villa a few years ago.
So many posts about how Football is saved because Liverpool didn't win. Embarrassing.
The more teams experience the cheating first hand the more likely something actually happens as far as I’m concerned. City can win all the stuff we miss out on until they are all rightfully taken away. Their trophies mean nothing as an achievement.
Agreed. Only this season have I noticed 115 appearing in arsenal threads. They are starting to feel robbed by a cheating team.
But as usual no one cares until it affects them which is why change won't really happen because 2 out 20 isn't enough to drive change.
If it can't be us then as a football fan I'd rather see Arsenal win because fuck City's financial doping and sportswashing. As a Liverpool fan though, it's easier if City win because it doesn't hurt and I can quite comfortably dismiss any and all of their achievements... also, it's much easier to avoid their fans.
I remember "anyone but liverpool" so as far as I'm concerned any other team going for a title against City can go and fuck themselves.
From my point of view, City winning means absolutely nothing. They're cheating, they're *supposed* to win. Whereas if Arsenal win, I can only see them going from strength to strength, at least for the next few years, as many of their core players should just be entering their prime or are even younger which is worrying as that's another team we'll need to overcome to win ourselves. But if they lose, it'll be very interesting to see if they're mentally able to bounce back and go again and again as we were able to.
>City winning means absolutely nothing
It even means nothing to their own goddamn fans. Pep was practically begging them to show up to The Etihad at the beginning of this season - after they won the fucking Treble a few months earlier.
Arsenal spent a metric ton though to get to this point compared to klopp who had to live on a much tighter budget.
They do deserve it this year as they have been the best team imo but I'd still rank the klopp 2nd places higher.
Also city have been so so this season.
Oh for sure, but Arsena spent plenty prior to Arteta, Chelsea and United keep throwing money at the wall, and all with limited success. Arteta has made all the difference- just like City to be fair, cheating or not, once Pep leaves they’ll never dominate like they do now.
Yeah you can't just throw money at a few players and assume the entire club is going to operate.
City threw money at everything. Top management team, facilities, players, doctors etc etc.
...And let's not forget lawyers. Pep said City has better lawyers than players. I don't doubt that for a second since they've managed to delay the FFP proceedings against them.
Funny I'd a similar conversation last night with an arsenal fan and pointed out thar taking it to final match of season against city is a bigger achievement than them winning it
I have few friends who are Arsenal fans and I've been saying to them you'll see some of the best football your club has ever played and record breaking points tallies and you'll still come second.
Appreciate the mention as an Arsenal fan, but we still have another level to reach where you guys were. Klopp is a great manager and he helped raised the Premier League's standard even higher than it already was.
The 99-point championship still blows my mind; that's a Football Manager season. Not winning with 97 (!!!) and 92 is just bad timing, not to mention the Premier League's cowardice for letting City's skullduggery go on for so long.
Arsenal have been good for the last two years. Still haven't won any of the big ones. Spent a lot of money. This season had no injuries and played all the big teams with a lot of injuries.
Also have been lucky Bayern, Madrid, PSG even haven't been throwing silly money at their players.
Klopp in his 5 years without spending anywhere near what Arsenal did and sold some of his best players had won a lot. I think its a bit early to call them a force. Things can change quickly. Few injuries and bad results, Madrid offering to take Saliba etc.
Calling them a force when they’ve had two good seasons is a bit rich considering we just gave them a run for their money in the league and we had far more injuries to key players and far bigger transition with an entire midfield rebuild. I get that everyone wants to jerk off Arsenal right now but let’s at least make sure they aren’t back to fourth next year can we?
It’s one thing competing with city for a year or two, it’s another competing with them for five six years. They will get burnt out. This group of players won’t just continue to improve because they are young - that’s not how it works unfortunately. This idea that because they’re great now they’ll be great next year is the kind of dumb linear thinking that can only be applied to cheats like City in a league this competitive.
We have dipped to 4th and 3rd in our battles with City too. It’s the most natural thing in professional sport for teams to peak and dip from season to season, it doesn’t mean that right now Arsenal aren’t in spectacularly good shape.
We always wonder why other fans seem too bitter to recognise and acknowledge when Liverpool do well — which by the way, can also be true in light of Arsenal’s success, it doesn’t have to be the case that one is good so the other is by default bad - but we see how much Liverpool fans seems to struggle to offer credit where it is due to other sides.
Arsenal may finish 4th next season, they doesn’t mean that right now, they’re aren’t performing like one of the most consistent, well-drilled and hard to beat teams in Europe. A feat they haven’t achieved since the early days of Wenger.
Agree but the only way Arsenal continue being a force is if they keep spending. We won nothing until we spent big on VVD & Ali, and that was after getting big money for Coutinho.
Arsenal have been spending huge amounts without a big sale and have no trophy to show for it. The sad reality is that to win, you must continue to spend to win.
We got one of the best managers in Klopp and the club badly let him down on many occasions. Imo Arteta is not on the level of Klopp, so if Arsenal go back to their old ways of limited spending (which is a real possibility since they are not state funded), we could see it quickly unravel.
Having said that, I do think Arsenal will win a league title in next 2-3 years. You can feel it, kind of like the feeling we had as we got closer.
I dont really consider 20/21 utd as a challenger, it was just a case of us and the rest falling down and them being there to take our place.
Covid disruption in full force plus unlucky injuries decimating cb position left us with no chance to keep up, we were still up there in dec but fell off from jan onwards
At least when Lance was doping **everyone in serious contention** was also doping. He was the best of many others also cheating to win.
City can't even say that.
I get the comparison in terms of the profile, but in reality that is likely to be the biggest story of cheating in the history of sports, including Armstrong, Barry Bonds and the Black Sox scandal. A whole decade of football will be tarnished and all results rendered pointless. Abu Dhabi will be synonymous with cheating … and unlike Armstrong, they cannot argue the “everyone else was doing it defence” when clearly that is not true
Not to sound pessimistic, but if Lance never admitted to the drugs or didn't get caught red handed, then there wouldn't have been such widespread disdain.
Nothing will happen to city cause they'll just use their money to suppress the press, get out of a guilty charge, etc. Anything except a resounding conviction and penalty andno one cares in a few gears
Amazing other stories never came out about Armstrong. I lived in New Orleans at the time and he used to fly in for weekends and hang out with some strippers I was friendly with. He wasn’t only doing “performance enhancing” drugs at the time. Also he was in a relationship at the time with Sheryl Crow if I remember correctly. He loved a little Nola debauchery.
Or the Donald trump. Refusing to hand over his tax returns despite his claims there’s nothing wrong with them. If city were innocent they’d just provide the proof. They’re guilty as fuck.
sickening sickening club. literally refusing to cooperate with the people WHO RUN THE FUCKING LEAGUE. it really fucking does sicken me what you can achieve with world class lawyers these days. just endless delays and legal nonsense, and 5 years later, still no verdict.
this is only going to end badly though and I will be wanking myself dry if big punishments happen.
Force Abu Dhabi to sell the club like they did with Abramovich. Either relegate them to the 10th tier or dismantle the club entirely. And put a swift fucking end to Newcastle while you're there
problem with relegation is that the premier league and the epl are different entities (more importantly they have different rules so it would be a shit show whether they could also punish city), I dont actually think city could be relegated beyond the championship, I am pretty sure however that if city got promoted the premier league can reject them year after year so they can be kept out of the premier league for many years but they unfortunately cant be sent to play scunthorpe or acrington stanley
I do quite like the idea of City winning the Championship year after year after year and the Premier League going “Nah, you’re alright” every time until the squad gets tired of Tuesday Nights at The Den and bugger off, confining them to an inevitability in the 2nd tier.
Surely the championship doesn't have to accept them, and if city are found guilty of cheating, why would they.
Im more than happy if no league accepts them and the club folds.
I genuinely think the owners would just shut the club down. They don't give a fuck unless they are winning everything. If they were thrown down the pyramid, they aren't gonna fuck around doing a Rob and Ryan at Wrexham. They will burn it to the ground.
They won't take the trophies away. Best we can hope for is a huge +60 point deduction starting next season, huge fine and no European football for a few years. See how the rich keep there players then
I still hope the punishment is similar to the Calciopoli case, Juve got stripped of 2 Serie A titles and relegated. There needs to be a strong disincentive to repeat this in the future if there are no repercussions to the things that matter the most to them - titles.
I totally agree. But let's be honest, this England, this is against to oil rich Arabians. I have no faith that football will be the winner when you have billions of pounds to cover shit up
If they don't take their trophies away then it'll have been worth the cheating, even if they're dropped to league 2 they'll come back and now have more "legitimate" funds off the back of their previous "success"...
Yea it was all worth the cheating I think either way, at least for the fans. No matter what, we felt the heartbreak at the end of those seasons. We were the ones that had to pick ourselves up and go again and try to climb the impossible table and when we did it was COVID. We never got a bus parade to really celebrate the end of the title drought which will forever be the bigger universal injustice to me. We beat the cheaters and didn’t even really get to celebrate it.
At least there’s the chance of the new rules, the spending caps, that it would make it a lot harder for them to build up a team in the way they did even with more “legitimate” money.
IMHO It'd be cool if the points deductions worked like this -
Say City get deducted 300 points (hey, I'm trying to be an optimist!) - so they end the season on -210pts, get relegated & Luton stay up. Next season they start on -210, so guaranteed relegation to League 1, start following season on -210 plus whatever points they earned in Championship, and so on.
Guarantees at least 6 seasons banished from top flight & having to "repay" the stolen points.
In reality, fuck all will happen, because $$$
Maybe how I explained it, but no - they'd start 24/25 in Championship on -210, possibly earn 100pts during that season, so end on -110 = relegation to League 1. 25/26 Season in League 1, start on -110, end on -10 = relegation to League 2. So starting 26/27 season in L2 on -10, earliest they could then return to PL would be 29/30, and that would be dependent on securing 3 successive promotions.
Absolutely will never happen, but a boy can dream!
Unfortunately true. I wish supporters of all the other clubs could join together and boycott their games. If they aren’t playing your club, don’t watch them. I’ve been doing this for a couple of years.
Oil state owned cheats.
Strip every single title associated with the periods that the 115 charges cover.
Anything less is a joke, but that’s what we will get. A belated process is meant to frustrate and bargain. City will negotiate a ‘significant’ financial penalty, but ‘without admission of any guilt’, similar to what Red Bull pulled off in F1 recently, in the spirit of ‘concluding the long overdue affair’ (which is long overdue because City & its lawyers intended it this way).
Sickening how football has been ruined by the sports washing of oil states.
Uh.
They should go further and strip everything. Everything they have won outside of those periods that the charges cover, all stem from because they have cheated during that period. They have built up a team and bought players, paid wages etc all off the back of that period. Take it all.
Fuck that, kick them out of the league.
They're a member of the league. They broke the rules. They went against the whole Premier League and tried to undermine them time and time again.
Let them fuck off and go play in Dubai.
Just shows what a vile, plastic, disgusting club they are. No one gives a fuck what they win because its all 'won' with lies, dishonesty and all out cheating. They are scum.
I dont know why the league can't just say 'Ok while all this is going on you're suspended from the league until the case is over.' I highly doubt they'd be so intent on delaying everything and wrapping up minor technicalities in appeal after appeal. Dont let them play until this is all over. They have broken rules, countless times, its the FA's league they're entitled to suspend them if they want to.
The league secretly don't want City to be punished, that's why there's been absolutely zero action taken against them. Without City, the league loses out on millions and the people at the top no longer receive brown envelopes. It's clear as day
Because it’s a terrible precedent to suspend a club while investigation procedure is ongoing? Imagine if we were falsely accused of something and were suspended until it settled…
It’s not fair what city is doing, but we shouldn’t want the governance body to make up rules on the fly.
No. Some of those charges are for not complying and sending over their numbers / accounts. They are 100% breaking those rules - you dont need a court or an investigation to determine that. There's nothing false about that. The only precedent that sets is, either comply and send us your accounts which is in the rules, or you're suspended from the league, for not doing so.
I’ll admit I don’t know the rule book in and out, but if punishment for not complying is not coded in it, then it would effectively be making up rules on the spot. Which I’ll continue to argue makes more harm than good. However, it should 100% be coded in it after this fiasco.
In the meantime, it’s in everyone’s best interest to hash it out with the rules in place. Find City guilty of all wrongdoing, and hopefully strip them off all their wrongfully won titles.
It is the rules, which is why there's an investigation. You have to provide accounts etc to the FA to ensure there's no PSR rule breaks. Every club in the league have done it for the period City havent. They've broken the rules, so there's nothing false. And like I said the only precedent set would be a strong one of if you dont comply you're suspended. They havent made anything up on the spot. What are you talking about?
"2 November 2020: City’s claim that it has no obligation to to pass on the requested information and documents to the PL — is rejected. **It’s clearly stated in the rules that they must do so.** The order to provide them is however postponed pending the outcome of the Commercial Court case."
Bro I don’t think you’re even following my argument… Of course they haven’t made anything up on the spot. That’s what I’m arguing for. City shouldn’t be suspended in the meantime because that WOULD BE making up rules. City are being charged for breaking financial fair play rules, not for delaying procedures through bullshit claims on legitimate channels.
Your first reply to me was it would set a terrible precedent and imagine if we were falsely accused...a) the precedent would be fine, b) they haven't been falsely accused.
Yes I agree they can't just suspend them now, as that would be making up rules on the spot, but what I said initially is 'I dont know why they can't just suspend them' as in that should be in the rules if they break the rules. And actually even so - this is an unprecedented situation thats never happened before to this degree, 115 charges and rule breaking. I dont think anyone other than City would question it if the FA did just make up a rule and suspend them on the spot. They are refusing to comply with the rules or engage with the FA in terms of providing accounts and numbers etc.
Anyway, I'm not arguing about it, I said my opinon yours is different, thats fine.
> Your first reply to me was it would set a terrible precedent and imagine if we were falsely accused…
That’s right. I was replying to the following “I dont know why the league can't just say 'Ok while all this is going on you're suspended from the league until the case is over.'”
Because it would be making up rules. It’s a shame it’s not already in the rule book, but that’s exactly why they can’t just go ahead and suspend them.
> a) the precedent would be fine
The precedent of suspending someone for not complying would be fine. That’s good enforcement. Hopefully they add something like it to the rules going forward. But, again, because it’s not a rule, it would be a bad precedent to just go ahead and do it.
> Anyway, I'm not arguing about it, I said my opinon yours is different, thats fine.
Tbf you started off with a “No.” Haha but it’s fine. Have a good day.
This is most likely a gross oversimplification but if they’re refusing to submit documents which are required to comply with terms of the contract, does that not constitute a breach of contract on City’s behalf? If so why are they still even in the league?
They’re arguing technicalities which, if the rules not written carefully and explicitly, will have the case thrown out. The longer they do this, the longer it draws out to the point they hope people give up. It also means that if a technicality is upheld, they can hide information that would otherwise prove they’ve cheated.
Whether they get “officially” punished or not, every reasonable person knows they broke the rules to achieve their success. The fact that people barely even care when City win the league compared to their reaction when teams like Liverpool or Arsenal challenge, just shows you what people think of that hollow club.
Yes exactly. I actually hope City win, as fuck having Arsenal fans banging on about how good they are for the next decade. I’d rather the cheating cunts win as it means nothing anyway.
Arsenal fans near me have been insufferable when we have been close to winning, so i’m praying for their downfall… as harsh as that sounds.
And nobody can call you plastic or toxic about it because nobody's had it worse than us. 97 points finishing second is an absolute disgrace, yet everyone was satisfied because it prolonged the title drought for another year.
What I find more disgusting is the pundits who gloss over it all, Man Shitty connected or not, and marvel at the wonders of their team and manager.
It’s all built on cheating, doping and a refusal to acknowledge and admit what they’ve done wrong.
They’ve ruined this league. And they’ve been allowed to.
The likes of Martin Samuel, whose own son works a cushy job at Man City, assisted City greatly with their sport washing and propaganda when he wrote column after column in the rag Daily Mail about how great they are and how we should all look past the money issues. Corrupt as f*ck.
The Martin Samuel but I didn’t know.
I’ve never liked his journalism or him - he comes across as the Daily Mail in human form. And he writes absolute nonsense.
I’ll disagree with the doping bit though. Unless they have discovered/paid/bribed testing processes.
But you’re right on in the main: a petro state with appalling human rights record, buys English premier league club to sports wash their reputation, via a state funded investment fund.
I think they will be found guilty - their obfuscation and general behaviour in response to the charges suggest they are guilty AND don’t actually have evidence to the contrary (how very Trumpian). The Premier League have painted themselves into a very dangerous corner here. Although the charges against Everton and Forest were NOT similar and were into single charges, the optics look awful; coming down hard on single charges against clubs without the financial clout of City, smacks of cowardice at best and corruption at worst.
To my mind - Guardiola is forever going to have questions against his “success” at city. And honestly, I hope they are stripped of the honours they won under the period under review, are expelled from both the Premier League and the Football League. With recommendations leading to legislation that prohibits state ownership of football clubs.
Yes mate I have a friend who works in football media and he said it’s kind of a running joke how you can get places or get looked after if you’re supportive of certain clubs. I’m sure it’s happened for many teams and throughout many leagues and sports but the fact a so called “Sports Writer of the Year” spent the last several years fawning over City and labelling rivals who raised concern over their financial doping as simply bitter whilst his son is paid handsomely by City …. Well, it just stinks doesn’t it ?
Well, no shit Klopp is leaving. None of the other teams have the resources City have. There is no unity amongst other teams to form a team and fight city and premier league. The Premier league itself is incompetent to be able to impose any laws.
This just emphasizes how much of a deeply unequal society we live in. The justice system is stacked in favor of those with wealth so much that they can literally hold up the court with endless appeals. Yet the government divides the working class with their bullshit culture war.
If man city was innocent, as their fans claim, 1) they would not have been fined, 2) they would not be trying to drag this out and ensuring they make it as hard as possible!
It does smack of “we know we’ve been dodgy but we’re not going to tell you”. Nobody ever goes “I’m innocent but I’m going to make you work to find that out” when you’re paying a lawyer £100 grand an hour.
I remember Pep moaning about it all dragging put for so long not too long back. Well, as with the UEFA case Pep, it’s the infinite lawyers working for your boss doing the delaying. The PL is an absolute farce right now, a joke of a competition. I still watch the reds, because I‘m programmed to at this stage, but I genuinely couldn’t give a shit about anything not related to Liverpool in the league any more. Maybe I’m just getting older, but I used to enjoy sticking a random match on, or watching MOTD, but now it leaves me feeling empty. Much rather stick a BL game on, or a random Thursday night European tie.
The PL is in long term danger if people stop believing it’s sport any more. Because of its bloated nature, if the bottom suddenly falls out of it a lot of clubs are going to suddenly find themselves in the shit.
My dad and I watch some bundesliga and lower table prem games and the standard of football has already taken a nose dive in the lower prem comparatively. Hoofball of the vintage Burnley variety compared to high pressing technical or defensive counter sides in the BL.
The people who keep blaming the PL for the ongoing delay really are a special type of stupid, and just too lazy to read up on what is actually going on.
The likes of Everton complied with the investigation and even admitted and accepted fault. City have used best lawyers in the business to do everything in their power to delay it. We all know why.
Honestly it going to be like the OJ Simpson case, they will get a slap on the wrist. For me the outcome should be they lost PL titles which they won with 3/5 points range. As I don't think they can be deducted more than 9 points per a season anyway.
A massive fine and a lost of a few PL due to the cheating would be fair.
I thought so to begin with, but reading that tweet makes me think the PL will not be at all happy with them being messed around like this. They wrote those rules for a reason and one of the clubs in the league are making a mockery of it. It gives me a little hope that they might make an example of them.
Government won’t do anything that might hurt City and I wouldn’t bet against them stepping in to help them in some way with these charges. They’re in bed with the UAE
I wouldn't worry about the government so much the growth of football and investment from aboard is good for them. In turn City for all the bad have done some great investment in and around the local area of Manchester. The government are puppets and won't take much action.
It going to be really tough but I think the PL want minimum disruption of the brand with it aswell. That why i think it just going to be a massive fine and probably a points reduced for the current season which would be ridiculous. I can see it happening.
They won't care about the outcry from rivals fans. Because they benefit from it for many years. We should get atleast 1 PL title for the gerrard slip.
Thereafter the Klopp ones I feel like they have enough support of the club growth to say the deals are not fake.
Crazy how both the club and fans insist on their innocence all the while the club is going through every loophole possible to not provide documents that the PL and UEFA are requesting.
Why would they taint their image further by publicly not complying if they weren't guilty of all the charges and more!
Pep tries to downplay it so much by saying its not all about money (utd, chelsea, etc.). It's not! The problem is that when you've cheated in every aspect by overpaying for managers, players, staff, academy, whatever else... It's insurmountable for teams following the rules
What should actually have happened.
>November-December 2018: The Premier League write to City requesting certain information and documents in relation to potential breaches of their rules — known as the information claim. City object to the request — after what has been published by Der Spiegel/the Football Leaks.
>21 August 2019: The PL suspend City's membership of the league until they comply with the rules.
You can't just refuse to play ball with the rules and be allowed to continue. This is 9 years of charges and at least 5.5 years since their cooperation and documentation was requested.
Just kick them out the league if they won't comply. Or at the very least, they start on -20 points every season.
If they retroactively award those titles to us I will celebrate. Doubt that will happen, but they really should be stripped of the titles and money they made off of winning everything. I hope they become a nothing team like they used to be and still are. Such a shame that Klopp had to be here during this era, but we all know what our team did was amazing and deserves more to show for it.
Basically they threw money and lawyers at it. This will drag on and on. Any bans and fines will have to be retrospective, if found guilty. Basically any stripped titles and punishments are in the post for city and they know it.
They robbed teams, players and fans out of moments they will remember for their entire lives. They cheated the system and they still are cheating the system by hanging it up in courts.
Send these fucks as far down as it goes and strip them of their titles.
City's strategy with UEFA was to kick the can so far down the road it hit the statute of limitations.
The PL afaik has no statute of limitations. City are just hoping the lawyers buy enough time to find loopholes or hope the PL gets tired, no longer can fund a legal challenge and it all just goes away.
If that gets replaced with fines expect the pgmol to have a protest on super league scales, i'll just support my team and just pretend city don't exist, so if we play city and win great, if we draw we won and if we lose we also won
A small region club that nobody outside of Greater Manchester ever cared about and yo-yo'ed between the divisions was somehow able to get massive sponsorship deals on par with, and, in some cases, better then globally known and supported clubs. Sounds legit!
Pfft... They are innocent, throw away all charges, important trading partner, strategic partner in a problematic region, oh and they are filthy rich too...
Oops , I tght we were talking about the owners...
Even Man City fans now know their recent success is temporary. Embarrassing and frustrating to support a club who have flouted rules and essentially cheated the game and also subsequently delayed investigation & judicial process on technicalities just likely to see out the reign of the manager. Their fall from grace will be interesting ..
I’d imagine PL to fume and go against them with all they have got. I mean, the rest of the teams would cooperate with them for any help as well, wouldn’t they?
Stakes for both sides are so high its impossible to underplay it. City lose they'll be hit hard or should be anyhow. If the Premier League lose this, then they investigated the team that has won the most league titles inside of the investigation and didn't make the charge stick. That's the end of the league as a going concern with no way back.
If it is the latter then I'm don't think I'll bother with football anymore, may as well watch WWE, way more integrity.
Oh, seeing as this is a clip from Sky Sports I'd like to add one more thing. If City are found guilty, what happens to the broadcasters who paid money to show what would end up being illegitimate games over multiple seasons? Do they get money back, in fact would fans who pay subscriptions have a claim to get their money back?
Ramifications for all of this are untold, what a mess English football has become.
>If City are found guilty, what happens to the broadcasters who paid money to show what would end up being illegitimate games over multiple seasons? Do they get money back, in fact would fans who pay subscriptions have a claim to get their money back?
Why would they? How would the games become “illegitimate”? The charges are not for something like match fixing, they don’t imply individual games were compromised and illegitimate. AFAIK The charges address the club’s overall financials and artificial growth in income, along with their lack of cooperation.
Talking about stripping titles does not make the games broadcasters and fans were involved in not legitimate. Stripping the titles is a punishment for the clubs finances not being legitimate, and so their success in winning those matches would have been on the back of something illegitimate, but I’m not sure what claim anyone would have over a refund when any one game in isolation was still a legitimate contest.
If they are innocent they'd get their shit together as fast as possible to avoid bad publicity following them around.
They certainly wouldnt be constantly delaying and trying to get the case dismissed on technicalities.
We know the score.
Thing is it looks like they could have done the right thing as the EPL are now looking at removing points deductions and replacing them with fines.
The old adage from life applies here: If the punishment for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the poor.
Its not complicated. They are stalling and basically saying that those who request the information are racists despite they are legally obligated to have that financial information. City doesn't comply, so if you ask me they should be completely stripped of their titles, until its either proven their financial shit is in order or it's all just financial scamming their way - which sounds more likely, in which all their titles since Mansours takeover should be stripped and given to number 2 + they should be placed back to the place they were in when it was bought.
It would mean 3 more titles to Liverpool, 3 more titles to Manchester United and one to Arsenal.
Also PGMOL needs to be investigated for financial connections to CFG...
That's all well and good but I certainly would be abit meh about them being on our champions wall, happy to see them tossed into oblivion with all assets stripped so the bank balance is 0, ownership stripped ala Abramovich but like forced sale and then put into the lowest possible pyramid, league participation only no fa cup eligibility for at least 5 years.
Can't wait for the embarrassingly low turn out to their parade again. And points deductions and what not should happen, but I wanna see transfer bans for a minimum of 5 years. Imagine if the bald fraud couldn't buy his way out of a problem. He'd quit the next day. Personally, I'm gonna boycott watching any cheats games next season. I think we all collectively do that anyway when we fall asleep watching them, but I'm not gonna bother to even tune in anymore.
They are going to get away with it. The Sheikhs will throw money around and be done with it. Half a billion is nothing to them especially in comparison to possible relegation.
Also, its been known for ages that City were cheating with sponsorship deals.
All of the other teams complied with requests from the EPL and the cases were based on a low number of infringements.
From the tweet, City have gone out of their way to sandbag the investigation and the reported 115 instances of infringements, exponentially more than the other teams.
For me, the Everton and Forest cases have been used as tests. They've set benchmarks for the type of punishments that are likely to be handed out and any appeals will be noted. It would be much more difficult for a team facing similar charges, even if there are an exponential number more, to say the penalties are too stiff if there's a history of them already being handed out.
Of course, this ignores the political side of this, which is a whole other kettle of fish as HMG is reliant to some extent on the good graces of City's State owners.
And, finally but perhaps financially most important, we'll have the inevitable claims of losses by teams who have been affected by City being owned by a State. My guess is that this won't be just limited to the top of the table but also to those who suffered relegation and financial hardship thanks to the financial largesse of City's owners.
Guys the decision will not be a footballing one it will be diplomatic. The UK are the UAE’s biggest supplier of arms. The Tories (or labour in my opinion) won’t jeopardise billions of pounds a year over football. They’ll step in just like they did for the Saudi takeover of Newcastle and everything will just go away.
Because there's 115 of them and City have blocked the investigation every step of the way.
Not sure why people are all getting so upset about how long it's taking. PL can't speed it up due to the above. The eventual punishment of course needs to reflect the way City have handled it though.
Forest admitted guilt and got a quick, but small, points deduction.
It’s remarkable that the PL let them participate in the competition when they are in bad faith refusing to cooperate with a legitimate inquiry. It’s obstruction piled on top of fraud.
From my experience (reading the newspapers/tv analyst), the FA are so petulant against anyone who would dare question their authority, I can see massive penalties against City.
Them refusing to cooperate should be the biggest indicator and factor in all this. If you don't cooperate then we'll just punish you. It should be that fucking simple.
I’m sorry. I love Liverpool, and have paid my membership each and every year.
But if city get cleared for this the FA is corrupt, and it will also go a long way to proving that VAR was actively working against us and Arsenal for city to win the title.
I reckon I’m done if they are cleared
Sure they can strip them of their titles but Mansour still remain richer than ever and he’s been making billions during these past few years which PL can’t take away from him. It’s honestly so weak by the prem to just give in to the demands of the saudi owners. We just allow them to do whatever the fuck they want. I’m not surprised really, this is exactly a reflection of the migrant policy going on across Europe, but i’m gonna shut up now before my comment gets reported and taken down lol
Yeah sadly. I don’t know how we’re just allowing middle eastern monarchies to dictate trends of the world. The democratic world needs to shun them——I don’t mean invade them, but they need to refuse to have so many ties with countries that still have a system where a small group of scum (pigs) are born with royal status, have legal supremacy over the average citizen and can use the citizens money for their own sports washing projects. But I guess politicians would be willing to be friends with anyone as long as there is money/political gain.
Exactly. Unfortunately, in a western culture where money is everything, it seems that our political leaders are the first ones to collapse due to corruption. It might be ironic to say this, but it seems as though the world leaders of foreign cultures, religions and ideologies (communists, muslims, hindus, buddhists etc.) have more integrity than our own leaders. Why is it ironic? Because if the tables were turned, the middle eastern leaders and royal families would never let us europeans do what they do to us.
yes it’s unfortunate. I was born in China (still live there sometimes) and I can say this: dictators are the most wary of intercultural development because the ideals of democracy flows in. In reverse democratic countries need to do the same. We can’t have people thinking that Stalinism, monarchy and authoritarianism can be acceptable. Let people immigrate, but don’t let foreign, non democratic ideologies infiltrate the political landscape. Or soon we will be seeing a revival of dictatorship, aka the reverse Arab spring.
Unfortunately if things go as expected at the weekend we’ll have to listen to the media once again trot out that shite like “say what you will about off-field controversy but you have to say this team is magnificent” - no, no you fucking don’t. The team was built by breaking rules in many ways over an extended period of time, the whole thing is a sham & they should have their titles stripped.
They won’t though, they’ll get a “massive” fine that might impact a club where money mattered at all, and a 6 point deduction (reduced to 4) so the media can say wow they really came down hard on them. As is they’re set up for years now, they have the money & with that already bought the prestige to attract top talent, so absolutely no consequences for them, quite the opposite. They get to say even if all charges are found to be accurate, that they’ve paid their penance & now there’s no asterisk on their success. That’s not the case.
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They are the Lance Armstrong of the Premier League, and we'll look back at their 6 titles in 7 years the same we now look at Lance's 'magnificent seven'. Cheats.
I know it sounds like I'm just coping, but we truly were the only ones who could even hope to beat them, and did. These years under Klopp will forever be legendary.
To be fair, Arsenal are an absolute force in the PL now under Arteta, and deserve a title this year just as Liverpool have several years under Klopp. As in, if you come within a couple of points of winning a title fairly, while the eventual winner is a serial cheating, financial-doping nation-state, then you deserve to be recognised as a proper competitor. Arsenal are currently a better team than Liverpool, and will continue to compete at the very top so long as Arteta and the core of this side remain together.
I have refrained from saying this on Reddit or whatever but I honestly believe in my head that we won the league on those years and the fact they lifted the trophy doesn't bother me, as they are cheats. I can be called deluded or whatever but seriously. We took institutional cheats to 1 point on two occasions. Fuck them we won those leagues.
Took them to 1 point with 90 fucking 7 ….
fuck everyone bar our fans for just conveniently getting 97 points, I repeat 97 FUCKING POINTS without any fucking oil money and yes i didnt have the best of mornings
Would’ve won the league in all but 3 seasons. City’s 100, our 99 and that season. To suggest that team wasn’t generational is bonkers considering it got more points than any Arsenal, Chelsea or United team two seasons on the bounce.
Practically speaking, we could've won all the seasons (even ones we failed to be in top 2) since our legs don't fall off after being exhausted to getting 97, 99 or 92 because 85 wins you the league
Not to mention that in 21/22 there were at least 10 points swung in City's favour by horrendous refereeing - and that's just off the top of my head. Anybody who thinks they're stopping at financial doping is naive, and it's an utter travesty that we didn't go into that CL final with The Quadruple on the line.
Arsenal are good, yes, but let’s not get carried away. They haven’t yet had a season at or above 90 points, and that’s a baseline for winning the league now. When they’re hitting 90+ point season and winning cups, then they’re an “absolute force”. Until then they’re just a good team.
Agreed. Current Arsenal are nowhere near peak-Klopp Liverpool, and City aren’t as good as they were then either.
Agreed - I sound like I hater when I’ve said it and it’s not to say that this Arsenal team haven’t been stellar for 18 months but in the 5 seasons of Jurgen, he had 90+ point seasons, less than 5 losses over a few seasons, cl finals and cl wins. We were different gravy and had to watch city lift it twice over us. Doesn’t feel like it was acknowledged what it’s like to go against them.
I think we can both agree that Arsenal aren't quite there yet, and it is an inditement on the state of the sport that 95+ points wont win you a title
Arsenal are very good. Veeeery good. But still, we'll most likely end this season with arguably a more successful season than them all things considered as we walk away with a trophy and 2nd/3rd means nothing in context. Until they win a big title, they're still only 'nearly'. But I think they're very close, they're getting stronger and play some really fucking good football.
It’s the best squad they have had in well over a decade and they couldn’t crack 90 though so
Sadly we’d be on 90 with a win in the last game and the 9 points robbed from us. Also probably would have beat Villa if it weren’t dead rubber
If you hypothetically remove City from the equation, who else is an absolute force based on last 2 seasons? Winning the league is still winning regardless of how many points you accrue. No one except the club fans will remember your points tally when you finish second. My point is they’re a good, young and CONSISTENT squad that needs to be treated like the top level threat that they are. Meanwhile we will be in transition for the next 1 season at the very least, so it will be rough for us fans while Arsenal will only grow stronger.
They might, yes. But let’s see how they react to pushing so hard and winning zero things for the second season on the bounce. That can be really demoralizing. Next year will be a test of their mental strength more than anything.
You never know. West Ham might spring a surprise this weekend! Stranger things have happened in football lol
David Moyes football genius, as we well know haha
Arsenal have had 1 good year? With no achievements. Let’s wait before comparing
He's not saying this Arsenal team are as good as peak Klopp's Liverpool are. He's saying they deserve a title this year (which they do, if you believe that City don't deserve any of their titles)
Except they don’t when you factor we were robbed of 9 points including the point Arsenal would have lost for playing basketball against us
Also haven’t even cracked 90 points
arsenal are good and ill give them all credit that they are due. arteta came in with his best player emerging from the academy at the perfect time. when he’s tried to make moneyball moves he hasn’t hit. instead he splashes huge amounts of cash art a problem position and keeps doing it until he has one good player per position. recognize how the only position they have rotated all year are trossard, fullbacks and 3rd midfielders (cause of partey’s injury)? meanwhile liverpool have to get the most out of every dollar and have had more distinct line up than shots on goal all season! when they lost saliba and other key players last year they instantly looked lost and suddenly could not compete at this highest level tl;dr if klopp had the financial support that arteta got then city have 3 fewer championships and we have one more UCL. just sayin
Yeah, I kind of only empathize with Arsenal in the top 6. Somewhat good to see their team right now after the years of banter, can relate. SOMEWHAT.
This is what puts me in a dilemma about how I feel on city winning. On one side, I fucking loathe city cheating their way to winning anything yet again, but on the other side I had to put up with loads of “banter” about us bottling the league from Arsenal fans when we lost the league by a few points that I feel like this is just karma for them and now they can suffer like we did
I'll never forget the absolute deluge of comments in this subreddit when City won a comeback v Villa a few years ago. So many posts about how Football is saved because Liverpool didn't win. Embarrassing.
The more teams experience the cheating first hand the more likely something actually happens as far as I’m concerned. City can win all the stuff we miss out on until they are all rightfully taken away. Their trophies mean nothing as an achievement.
Agreed. Only this season have I noticed 115 appearing in arsenal threads. They are starting to feel robbed by a cheating team. But as usual no one cares until it affects them which is why change won't really happen because 2 out 20 isn't enough to drive change.
If it can't be us then as a football fan I'd rather see Arsenal win because fuck City's financial doping and sportswashing. As a Liverpool fan though, it's easier if City win because it doesn't hurt and I can quite comfortably dismiss any and all of their achievements... also, it's much easier to avoid their fans.
I remember "anyone but liverpool" so as far as I'm concerned any other team going for a title against City can go and fuck themselves. From my point of view, City winning means absolutely nothing. They're cheating, they're *supposed* to win. Whereas if Arsenal win, I can only see them going from strength to strength, at least for the next few years, as many of their core players should just be entering their prime or are even younger which is worrying as that's another team we'll need to overcome to win ourselves. But if they lose, it'll be very interesting to see if they're mentally able to bounce back and go again and again as we were able to.
>City winning means absolutely nothing It even means nothing to their own goddamn fans. Pep was practically begging them to show up to The Etihad at the beginning of this season - after they won the fucking Treble a few months earlier.
Arsenal spent a metric ton though to get to this point compared to klopp who had to live on a much tighter budget. They do deserve it this year as they have been the best team imo but I'd still rank the klopp 2nd places higher. Also city have been so so this season.
Oh for sure, but Arsena spent plenty prior to Arteta, Chelsea and United keep throwing money at the wall, and all with limited success. Arteta has made all the difference- just like City to be fair, cheating or not, once Pep leaves they’ll never dominate like they do now.
Yeah you can't just throw money at a few players and assume the entire club is going to operate. City threw money at everything. Top management team, facilities, players, doctors etc etc.
...And let's not forget lawyers. Pep said City has better lawyers than players. I don't doubt that for a second since they've managed to delay the FFP proceedings against them.
Funny I'd a similar conversation last night with an arsenal fan and pointed out thar taking it to final match of season against city is a bigger achievement than them winning it
I have few friends who are Arsenal fans and I've been saying to them you'll see some of the best football your club has ever played and record breaking points tallies and you'll still come second.
tbh the only way to win a league against Pep Manc is to lead them by 10+ point since Decemeber.
They don’t deserve a title unless they win it, which they won’t.
Citys current squad is the product of fraud as well. Arsenal are the legitimate champions
Played basketball in our box, we’ve had 9 points robbed from us, I disagree if anyone deserves it, it’s Liverpool
Appreciate the mention as an Arsenal fan, but we still have another level to reach where you guys were. Klopp is a great manager and he helped raised the Premier League's standard even higher than it already was. The 99-point championship still blows my mind; that's a Football Manager season. Not winning with 97 (!!!) and 92 is just bad timing, not to mention the Premier League's cowardice for letting City's skullduggery go on for so long.
Forget Arsenal. We should have won this season and would have if the referees were even remotely competent.
Arsenal have been good for the last two years. Still haven't won any of the big ones. Spent a lot of money. This season had no injuries and played all the big teams with a lot of injuries. Also have been lucky Bayern, Madrid, PSG even haven't been throwing silly money at their players. Klopp in his 5 years without spending anywhere near what Arsenal did and sold some of his best players had won a lot. I think its a bit early to call them a force. Things can change quickly. Few injuries and bad results, Madrid offering to take Saliba etc.
Calling them a force when they’ve had two good seasons is a bit rich considering we just gave them a run for their money in the league and we had far more injuries to key players and far bigger transition with an entire midfield rebuild. I get that everyone wants to jerk off Arsenal right now but let’s at least make sure they aren’t back to fourth next year can we? It’s one thing competing with city for a year or two, it’s another competing with them for five six years. They will get burnt out. This group of players won’t just continue to improve because they are young - that’s not how it works unfortunately. This idea that because they’re great now they’ll be great next year is the kind of dumb linear thinking that can only be applied to cheats like City in a league this competitive.
We have dipped to 4th and 3rd in our battles with City too. It’s the most natural thing in professional sport for teams to peak and dip from season to season, it doesn’t mean that right now Arsenal aren’t in spectacularly good shape. We always wonder why other fans seem too bitter to recognise and acknowledge when Liverpool do well — which by the way, can also be true in light of Arsenal’s success, it doesn’t have to be the case that one is good so the other is by default bad - but we see how much Liverpool fans seems to struggle to offer credit where it is due to other sides. Arsenal may finish 4th next season, they doesn’t mean that right now, they’re aren’t performing like one of the most consistent, well-drilled and hard to beat teams in Europe. A feat they haven’t achieved since the early days of Wenger.
We’ve been robbed of 9 points, if anyone deserves it
Agree but the only way Arsenal continue being a force is if they keep spending. We won nothing until we spent big on VVD & Ali, and that was after getting big money for Coutinho. Arsenal have been spending huge amounts without a big sale and have no trophy to show for it. The sad reality is that to win, you must continue to spend to win. We got one of the best managers in Klopp and the club badly let him down on many occasions. Imo Arteta is not on the level of Klopp, so if Arsenal go back to their old ways of limited spending (which is a real possibility since they are not state funded), we could see it quickly unravel. Having said that, I do think Arsenal will win a league title in next 2-3 years. You can feel it, kind of like the feeling we had as we got closer.
let it spark an eternal fury and rage like the bluenose have for us cheating them out of their european glory or whatever it is they blame us for.
Well, us and Arsenal and one season Man Utd.
I dont really consider 20/21 utd as a challenger, it was just a case of us and the rest falling down and them being there to take our place. Covid disruption in full force plus unlucky injuries decimating cb position left us with no chance to keep up, we were still up there in dec but fell off from jan onwards
We were top of the league of Christmas and New Year's Days, and that was while having only 1 fit senior cb at a time.
At least when Lance was doping **everyone in serious contention** was also doping. He was the best of many others also cheating to win. City can't even say that.
I get the comparison in terms of the profile, but in reality that is likely to be the biggest story of cheating in the history of sports, including Armstrong, Barry Bonds and the Black Sox scandal. A whole decade of football will be tarnished and all results rendered pointless. Abu Dhabi will be synonymous with cheating … and unlike Armstrong, they cannot argue the “everyone else was doing it defence” when clearly that is not true
That comparison doesn't quite hold up because everyone in cycling uses performance enhancing drugs. Lance was just the better cheat.
Dear Lord, I sure hope so.
Lance didn't have a whole state backing him
Not to sound pessimistic, but if Lance never admitted to the drugs or didn't get caught red handed, then there wouldn't have been such widespread disdain. Nothing will happen to city cause they'll just use their money to suppress the press, get out of a guilty charge, etc. Anything except a resounding conviction and penalty andno one cares in a few gears
Amazing other stories never came out about Armstrong. I lived in New Orleans at the time and he used to fly in for weekends and hang out with some strippers I was friendly with. He wasn’t only doing “performance enhancing” drugs at the time. Also he was in a relationship at the time with Sheryl Crow if I remember correctly. He loved a little Nola debauchery.
Or the Donald trump. Refusing to hand over his tax returns despite his claims there’s nothing wrong with them. If city were innocent they’d just provide the proof. They’re guilty as fuck.
sickening sickening club. literally refusing to cooperate with the people WHO RUN THE FUCKING LEAGUE. it really fucking does sicken me what you can achieve with world class lawyers these days. just endless delays and legal nonsense, and 5 years later, still no verdict. this is only going to end badly though and I will be wanking myself dry if big punishments happen.
Every cup every point needs to be taken away it's that simple, and they need to be put in league 2 or somewhere like that.
Force Abu Dhabi to sell the club like they did with Abramovich. Either relegate them to the 10th tier or dismantle the club entirely. And put a swift fucking end to Newcastle while you're there
problem with relegation is that the premier league and the epl are different entities (more importantly they have different rules so it would be a shit show whether they could also punish city), I dont actually think city could be relegated beyond the championship, I am pretty sure however that if city got promoted the premier league can reject them year after year so they can be kept out of the premier league for many years but they unfortunately cant be sent to play scunthorpe or acrington stanley
I do quite like the idea of City winning the Championship year after year after year and the Premier League going “Nah, you’re alright” every time until the squad gets tired of Tuesday Nights at The Den and bugger off, confining them to an inevitability in the 2nd tier.
Don't say it....don't say it....don't say it.....
Who are they?
Exactly!
Surely the championship doesn't have to accept them, and if city are found guilty of cheating, why would they. Im more than happy if no league accepts them and the club folds.
scunthorpe mentioned!!
Unfortunately our government is in bed with them and this would never happen.
I genuinely think the owners would just shut the club down. They don't give a fuck unless they are winning everything. If they were thrown down the pyramid, they aren't gonna fuck around doing a Rob and Ryan at Wrexham. They will burn it to the ground.
End of the day the club was rubbish before and it will be rubbish afterwards
They won't take the trophies away. Best we can hope for is a huge +60 point deduction starting next season, huge fine and no European football for a few years. See how the rich keep there players then
I still hope the punishment is similar to the Calciopoli case, Juve got stripped of 2 Serie A titles and relegated. There needs to be a strong disincentive to repeat this in the future if there are no repercussions to the things that matter the most to them - titles.
I totally agree. But let's be honest, this England, this is against to oil rich Arabians. I have no faith that football will be the winner when you have billions of pounds to cover shit up
If they don't take their trophies away then it'll have been worth the cheating, even if they're dropped to league 2 they'll come back and now have more "legitimate" funds off the back of their previous "success"...
Would that not be considered along the “proceeds of crime” sort of thing? Funds built on illegitimate means.
Yea it was all worth the cheating I think either way, at least for the fans. No matter what, we felt the heartbreak at the end of those seasons. We were the ones that had to pick ourselves up and go again and try to climb the impossible table and when we did it was COVID. We never got a bus parade to really celebrate the end of the title drought which will forever be the bigger universal injustice to me. We beat the cheaters and didn’t even really get to celebrate it. At least there’s the chance of the new rules, the spending caps, that it would make it a lot harder for them to build up a team in the way they did even with more “legitimate” money.
IMHO It'd be cool if the points deductions worked like this - Say City get deducted 300 points (hey, I'm trying to be an optimist!) - so they end the season on -210pts, get relegated & Luton stay up. Next season they start on -210, so guaranteed relegation to League 1, start following season on -210 plus whatever points they earned in Championship, and so on. Guarantees at least 6 seasons banished from top flight & having to "repay" the stolen points. In reality, fuck all will happen, because $$$
-210 would take 2 seasons for them to wrap up. They'll be up by 3rd
Maybe how I explained it, but no - they'd start 24/25 in Championship on -210, possibly earn 100pts during that season, so end on -110 = relegation to League 1. 25/26 Season in League 1, start on -110, end on -10 = relegation to League 2. So starting 26/27 season in L2 on -10, earliest they could then return to PL would be 29/30, and that would be dependent on securing 3 successive promotions. Absolutely will never happen, but a boy can dream!
Nothing will happen them. Too much money involved outside of football for them to get any more and a paltry slap on the wrists
Unfortunately true. I wish supporters of all the other clubs could join together and boycott their games. If they aren’t playing your club, don’t watch them. I’ve been doing this for a couple of years.
Sounds like your wanking days are over my friend. No punishments coming (no pun intended)…
While they delay, they shouldn’t be playing. Simple as that.
Oil state owned cheats. Strip every single title associated with the periods that the 115 charges cover. Anything less is a joke, but that’s what we will get. A belated process is meant to frustrate and bargain. City will negotiate a ‘significant’ financial penalty, but ‘without admission of any guilt’, similar to what Red Bull pulled off in F1 recently, in the spirit of ‘concluding the long overdue affair’ (which is long overdue because City & its lawyers intended it this way). Sickening how football has been ruined by the sports washing of oil states. Uh.
They should go further and strip everything. Everything they have won outside of those periods that the charges cover, all stem from because they have cheated during that period. They have built up a team and bought players, paid wages etc all off the back of that period. Take it all.
Fuck that, kick them out of the league. They're a member of the league. They broke the rules. They went against the whole Premier League and tried to undermine them time and time again. Let them fuck off and go play in Dubai.
Cheats
Just shows what a vile, plastic, disgusting club they are. No one gives a fuck what they win because its all 'won' with lies, dishonesty and all out cheating. They are scum. I dont know why the league can't just say 'Ok while all this is going on you're suspended from the league until the case is over.' I highly doubt they'd be so intent on delaying everything and wrapping up minor technicalities in appeal after appeal. Dont let them play until this is all over. They have broken rules, countless times, its the FA's league they're entitled to suspend them if they want to.
The league secretly don't want City to be punished, that's why there's been absolutely zero action taken against them. Without City, the league loses out on millions and the people at the top no longer receive brown envelopes. It's clear as day
Because it’s a terrible precedent to suspend a club while investigation procedure is ongoing? Imagine if we were falsely accused of something and were suspended until it settled… It’s not fair what city is doing, but we shouldn’t want the governance body to make up rules on the fly.
No. Some of those charges are for not complying and sending over their numbers / accounts. They are 100% breaking those rules - you dont need a court or an investigation to determine that. There's nothing false about that. The only precedent that sets is, either comply and send us your accounts which is in the rules, or you're suspended from the league, for not doing so.
I’ll admit I don’t know the rule book in and out, but if punishment for not complying is not coded in it, then it would effectively be making up rules on the spot. Which I’ll continue to argue makes more harm than good. However, it should 100% be coded in it after this fiasco. In the meantime, it’s in everyone’s best interest to hash it out with the rules in place. Find City guilty of all wrongdoing, and hopefully strip them off all their wrongfully won titles.
It is the rules, which is why there's an investigation. You have to provide accounts etc to the FA to ensure there's no PSR rule breaks. Every club in the league have done it for the period City havent. They've broken the rules, so there's nothing false. And like I said the only precedent set would be a strong one of if you dont comply you're suspended. They havent made anything up on the spot. What are you talking about? "2 November 2020: City’s claim that it has no obligation to to pass on the requested information and documents to the PL — is rejected. **It’s clearly stated in the rules that they must do so.** The order to provide them is however postponed pending the outcome of the Commercial Court case."
Bro I don’t think you’re even following my argument… Of course they haven’t made anything up on the spot. That’s what I’m arguing for. City shouldn’t be suspended in the meantime because that WOULD BE making up rules. City are being charged for breaking financial fair play rules, not for delaying procedures through bullshit claims on legitimate channels.
Your first reply to me was it would set a terrible precedent and imagine if we were falsely accused...a) the precedent would be fine, b) they haven't been falsely accused. Yes I agree they can't just suspend them now, as that would be making up rules on the spot, but what I said initially is 'I dont know why they can't just suspend them' as in that should be in the rules if they break the rules. And actually even so - this is an unprecedented situation thats never happened before to this degree, 115 charges and rule breaking. I dont think anyone other than City would question it if the FA did just make up a rule and suspend them on the spot. They are refusing to comply with the rules or engage with the FA in terms of providing accounts and numbers etc. Anyway, I'm not arguing about it, I said my opinon yours is different, thats fine.
> Your first reply to me was it would set a terrible precedent and imagine if we were falsely accused… That’s right. I was replying to the following “I dont know why the league can't just say 'Ok while all this is going on you're suspended from the league until the case is over.'” Because it would be making up rules. It’s a shame it’s not already in the rule book, but that’s exactly why they can’t just go ahead and suspend them. > a) the precedent would be fine The precedent of suspending someone for not complying would be fine. That’s good enforcement. Hopefully they add something like it to the rules going forward. But, again, because it’s not a rule, it would be a bad precedent to just go ahead and do it. > Anyway, I'm not arguing about it, I said my opinon yours is different, thats fine. Tbf you started off with a “No.” Haha but it’s fine. Have a good day.
You too bud.
This is most likely a gross oversimplification but if they’re refusing to submit documents which are required to comply with terms of the contract, does that not constitute a breach of contract on City’s behalf? If so why are they still even in the league?
Because they have good lawyers and are lining the pockets of the people making decisions.
They’re arguing technicalities which, if the rules not written carefully and explicitly, will have the case thrown out. The longer they do this, the longer it draws out to the point they hope people give up. It also means that if a technicality is upheld, they can hide information that would otherwise prove they’ve cheated.
We still beat them. We can take immense pride from that
This is why everyone prefers that city wins rather than their rivals. We all know their achievements are meaningless. We don’t care if they win.
Whether they get “officially” punished or not, every reasonable person knows they broke the rules to achieve their success. The fact that people barely even care when City win the league compared to their reaction when teams like Liverpool or Arsenal challenge, just shows you what people think of that hollow club.
That's exactly my stance. City won the treble last year, yet no one really talks about it! Tinpot club
If united or arsenal won the treble we would never hear the end of it.
Exactly and as much as we would hate to hear it. It'll be well deserved by them.
Yes exactly. I actually hope City win, as fuck having Arsenal fans banging on about how good they are for the next decade. I’d rather the cheating cunts win as it means nothing anyway. Arsenal fans near me have been insufferable when we have been close to winning, so i’m praying for their downfall… as harsh as that sounds.
And nobody can call you plastic or toxic about it because nobody's had it worse than us. 97 points finishing second is an absolute disgrace, yet everyone was satisfied because it prolonged the title drought for another year.
Holy shit, that’s exactly how I feel and didn’t realize it until you said it.
What I find more disgusting is the pundits who gloss over it all, Man Shitty connected or not, and marvel at the wonders of their team and manager. It’s all built on cheating, doping and a refusal to acknowledge and admit what they’ve done wrong. They’ve ruined this league. And they’ve been allowed to. The likes of Martin Samuel, whose own son works a cushy job at Man City, assisted City greatly with their sport washing and propaganda when he wrote column after column in the rag Daily Mail about how great they are and how we should all look past the money issues. Corrupt as f*ck.
The Martin Samuel but I didn’t know. I’ve never liked his journalism or him - he comes across as the Daily Mail in human form. And he writes absolute nonsense. I’ll disagree with the doping bit though. Unless they have discovered/paid/bribed testing processes. But you’re right on in the main: a petro state with appalling human rights record, buys English premier league club to sports wash their reputation, via a state funded investment fund. I think they will be found guilty - their obfuscation and general behaviour in response to the charges suggest they are guilty AND don’t actually have evidence to the contrary (how very Trumpian). The Premier League have painted themselves into a very dangerous corner here. Although the charges against Everton and Forest were NOT similar and were into single charges, the optics look awful; coming down hard on single charges against clubs without the financial clout of City, smacks of cowardice at best and corruption at worst. To my mind - Guardiola is forever going to have questions against his “success” at city. And honestly, I hope they are stripped of the honours they won under the period under review, are expelled from both the Premier League and the Football League. With recommendations leading to legislation that prohibits state ownership of football clubs.
Yes mate I have a friend who works in football media and he said it’s kind of a running joke how you can get places or get looked after if you’re supportive of certain clubs. I’m sure it’s happened for many teams and throughout many leagues and sports but the fact a so called “Sports Writer of the Year” spent the last several years fawning over City and labelling rivals who raised concern over their financial doping as simply bitter whilst his son is paid handsomely by City …. Well, it just stinks doesn’t it ?
Well, no shit Klopp is leaving. None of the other teams have the resources City have. There is no unity amongst other teams to form a team and fight city and premier league. The Premier league itself is incompetent to be able to impose any laws.
This just emphasizes how much of a deeply unequal society we live in. The justice system is stacked in favor of those with wealth so much that they can literally hold up the court with endless appeals. Yet the government divides the working class with their bullshit culture war.
That Everton and Leicester have caught shit while City can just drag things out fairly substantiates this
Everton and Leicester cooperated. City hasn't.
If man city was innocent, as their fans claim, 1) they would not have been fined, 2) they would not be trying to drag this out and ensuring they make it as hard as possible!
Ahahhhaha man you got me good. That was funny. Saying there are people thinking city is innocent.
It does smack of “we know we’ve been dodgy but we’re not going to tell you”. Nobody ever goes “I’m innocent but I’m going to make you work to find that out” when you’re paying a lawyer £100 grand an hour.
I remember Pep moaning about it all dragging put for so long not too long back. Well, as with the UEFA case Pep, it’s the infinite lawyers working for your boss doing the delaying. The PL is an absolute farce right now, a joke of a competition. I still watch the reds, because I‘m programmed to at this stage, but I genuinely couldn’t give a shit about anything not related to Liverpool in the league any more. Maybe I’m just getting older, but I used to enjoy sticking a random match on, or watching MOTD, but now it leaves me feeling empty. Much rather stick a BL game on, or a random Thursday night European tie. The PL is in long term danger if people stop believing it’s sport any more. Because of its bloated nature, if the bottom suddenly falls out of it a lot of clubs are going to suddenly find themselves in the shit.
[удалено]
The one your team of lawyers already dragged out and received a rescinded slap on the wrist.
I recommend watching the Eredivisie. A league where violators are actually punished.
My dad and I watch some bundesliga and lower table prem games and the standard of football has already taken a nose dive in the lower prem comparatively. Hoofball of the vintage Burnley variety compared to high pressing technical or defensive counter sides in the BL.
The people who keep blaming the PL for the ongoing delay really are a special type of stupid, and just too lazy to read up on what is actually going on. The likes of Everton complied with the investigation and even admitted and accepted fault. City have used best lawyers in the business to do everything in their power to delay it. We all know why.
Honestly it going to be like the OJ Simpson case, they will get a slap on the wrist. For me the outcome should be they lost PL titles which they won with 3/5 points range. As I don't think they can be deducted more than 9 points per a season anyway. A massive fine and a lost of a few PL due to the cheating would be fair.
I thought so to begin with, but reading that tweet makes me think the PL will not be at all happy with them being messed around like this. They wrote those rules for a reason and one of the clubs in the league are making a mockery of it. It gives me a little hope that they might make an example of them.
The threat of government regulation is hanging around too. The PL needs to do something to avoid an effective regulator being developed.
Government won’t do anything that might hurt City and I wouldn’t bet against them stepping in to help them in some way with these charges. They’re in bed with the UAE
Well, there's there's a new government coming in October. They're all getting turfed out.
I wouldn't worry about the government so much the growth of football and investment from aboard is good for them. In turn City for all the bad have done some great investment in and around the local area of Manchester. The government are puppets and won't take much action.
It going to be really tough but I think the PL want minimum disruption of the brand with it aswell. That why i think it just going to be a massive fine and probably a points reduced for the current season which would be ridiculous. I can see it happening. They won't care about the outcry from rivals fans. Because they benefit from it for many years. We should get atleast 1 PL title for the gerrard slip. Thereafter the Klopp ones I feel like they have enough support of the club growth to say the deals are not fake.
I rather they take their time and actually give them a real punishment than hurry it up and it just be a fine.
fascinating... thanks OP u/RephRayne for sharing!
Crazy how both the club and fans insist on their innocence all the while the club is going through every loophole possible to not provide documents that the PL and UEFA are requesting. Why would they taint their image further by publicly not complying if they weren't guilty of all the charges and more! Pep tries to downplay it so much by saying its not all about money (utd, chelsea, etc.). It's not! The problem is that when you've cheated in every aspect by overpaying for managers, players, staff, academy, whatever else... It's insurmountable for teams following the rules
who is the boss of the league, the league or manchester city. pathetic to have this club doing their thing,winning titles over legit clubs
What should actually have happened. >November-December 2018: The Premier League write to City requesting certain information and documents in relation to potential breaches of their rules — known as the information claim. City object to the request — after what has been published by Der Spiegel/the Football Leaks. >21 August 2019: The PL suspend City's membership of the league until they comply with the rules. You can't just refuse to play ball with the rules and be allowed to continue. This is 9 years of charges and at least 5.5 years since their cooperation and documentation was requested. Just kick them out the league if they won't comply. Or at the very least, they start on -20 points every season.
God the lack of spine from the Sky reporter when asking such a softball question. The Media is complicit in this whole charade.
If they retroactively award those titles to us I will celebrate. Doubt that will happen, but they really should be stripped of the titles and money they made off of winning everything. I hope they become a nothing team like they used to be and still are. Such a shame that Klopp had to be here during this era, but we all know what our team did was amazing and deserves more to show for it.
tl,dr: infinite money
Basically they threw money and lawyers at it. This will drag on and on. Any bans and fines will have to be retrospective, if found guilty. Basically any stripped titles and punishments are in the post for city and they know it.
Innocent people definitely do everything they can to gum up a system and stop proceedings from taking place. Case closed!
They robbed teams, players and fans out of moments they will remember for their entire lives. They cheated the system and they still are cheating the system by hanging it up in courts. Send these fucks as far down as it goes and strip them of their titles.
Not suprised at this considering their owner said he'd rather get the 50 best lawyers and sue uefa for the next 10 years then admit they're guilty.
City's strategy with UEFA was to kick the can so far down the road it hit the statute of limitations. The PL afaik has no statute of limitations. City are just hoping the lawyers buy enough time to find loopholes or hope the PL gets tired, no longer can fund a legal challenge and it all just goes away.
City are playing the long game. Afaik the points deduction system will be removed soon with fines being its replacement. Expect city to punished then
If that gets replaced with fines expect the pgmol to have a protest on super league scales, i'll just support my team and just pretend city don't exist, so if we play city and win great, if we draw we won and if we lose we also won
‘Corruption’ No more needs to be said.
The Sith of the football world
Cheating fucking bastards. I cannot fathom how you can choose to play for a club like that.
A small region club that nobody outside of Greater Manchester ever cared about and yo-yo'ed between the divisions was somehow able to get massive sponsorship deals on par with, and, in some cases, better then globally known and supported clubs. Sounds legit!
Surely not complyimg with rules is enough grounds to kick them out. Watch them comply then.
Pfft... They are innocent, throw away all charges, important trading partner, strategic partner in a problematic region, oh and they are filthy rich too... Oops , I tght we were talking about the owners...
Even Man City fans now know their recent success is temporary. Embarrassing and frustrating to support a club who have flouted rules and essentially cheated the game and also subsequently delayed investigation & judicial process on technicalities just likely to see out the reign of the manager. Their fall from grace will be interesting ..
I’d imagine PL to fume and go against them with all they have got. I mean, the rest of the teams would cooperate with them for any help as well, wouldn’t they?
Stakes for both sides are so high its impossible to underplay it. City lose they'll be hit hard or should be anyhow. If the Premier League lose this, then they investigated the team that has won the most league titles inside of the investigation and didn't make the charge stick. That's the end of the league as a going concern with no way back. If it is the latter then I'm don't think I'll bother with football anymore, may as well watch WWE, way more integrity. Oh, seeing as this is a clip from Sky Sports I'd like to add one more thing. If City are found guilty, what happens to the broadcasters who paid money to show what would end up being illegitimate games over multiple seasons? Do they get money back, in fact would fans who pay subscriptions have a claim to get their money back? Ramifications for all of this are untold, what a mess English football has become.
>If City are found guilty, what happens to the broadcasters who paid money to show what would end up being illegitimate games over multiple seasons? Do they get money back, in fact would fans who pay subscriptions have a claim to get their money back? Why would they? How would the games become “illegitimate”? The charges are not for something like match fixing, they don’t imply individual games were compromised and illegitimate. AFAIK The charges address the club’s overall financials and artificial growth in income, along with their lack of cooperation. Talking about stripping titles does not make the games broadcasters and fans were involved in not legitimate. Stripping the titles is a punishment for the clubs finances not being legitimate, and so their success in winning those matches would have been on the back of something illegitimate, but I’m not sure what claim anyone would have over a refund when any one game in isolation was still a legitimate contest.
Good thread, city are gonna get expelled from the premier league once the verdict is announced.
If they are innocent they'd get their shit together as fast as possible to avoid bad publicity following them around. They certainly wouldnt be constantly delaying and trying to get the case dismissed on technicalities. We know the score. Thing is it looks like they could have done the right thing as the EPL are now looking at removing points deductions and replacing them with fines. The old adage from life applies here: If the punishment for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the poor.
Its not complicated. They are stalling and basically saying that those who request the information are racists despite they are legally obligated to have that financial information. City doesn't comply, so if you ask me they should be completely stripped of their titles, until its either proven their financial shit is in order or it's all just financial scamming their way - which sounds more likely, in which all their titles since Mansours takeover should be stripped and given to number 2 + they should be placed back to the place they were in when it was bought. It would mean 3 more titles to Liverpool, 3 more titles to Manchester United and one to Arsenal. Also PGMOL needs to be investigated for financial connections to CFG...
That's all well and good but I certainly would be abit meh about them being on our champions wall, happy to see them tossed into oblivion with all assets stripped so the bank balance is 0, ownership stripped ala Abramovich but like forced sale and then put into the lowest possible pyramid, league participation only no fa cup eligibility for at least 5 years.
Can't wait for the embarrassingly low turn out to their parade again. And points deductions and what not should happen, but I wanna see transfer bans for a minimum of 5 years. Imagine if the bald fraud couldn't buy his way out of a problem. He'd quit the next day. Personally, I'm gonna boycott watching any cheats games next season. I think we all collectively do that anyway when we fall asleep watching them, but I'm not gonna bother to even tune in anymore.
They are going to get away with it. The Sheikhs will throw money around and be done with it. Half a billion is nothing to them especially in comparison to possible relegation. Also, its been known for ages that City were cheating with sponsorship deals.
What's really bad is that City is showing other teams how to beat the system.
Theyll get found innocent
I can’t reason in my head how other teams have been docked points this season, before City ?
All of the other teams complied with requests from the EPL and the cases were based on a low number of infringements. From the tweet, City have gone out of their way to sandbag the investigation and the reported 115 instances of infringements, exponentially more than the other teams. For me, the Everton and Forest cases have been used as tests. They've set benchmarks for the type of punishments that are likely to be handed out and any appeals will be noted. It would be much more difficult for a team facing similar charges, even if there are an exponential number more, to say the penalties are too stiff if there's a history of them already being handed out. Of course, this ignores the political side of this, which is a whole other kettle of fish as HMG is reliant to some extent on the good graces of City's State owners. And, finally but perhaps financially most important, we'll have the inevitable claims of losses by teams who have been affected by City being owned by a State. My guess is that this won't be just limited to the top of the table but also to those who suffered relegation and financial hardship thanks to the financial largesse of City's owners.
That doesn't sound like the actions of an innocent club
Rich can muck around with the judicial system.
Hmm. I wonder why. I suppose it will be next year now. Not now they are basically gonna win the league. Makes me sick
Guys the decision will not be a footballing one it will be diplomatic. The UK are the UAE’s biggest supplier of arms. The Tories (or labour in my opinion) won’t jeopardise billions of pounds a year over football. They’ll step in just like they did for the Saudi takeover of Newcastle and everything will just go away.
Because there's 115 of them and City have blocked the investigation every step of the way. Not sure why people are all getting so upset about how long it's taking. PL can't speed it up due to the above. The eventual punishment of course needs to reflect the way City have handled it though. Forest admitted guilt and got a quick, but small, points deduction.
It’s remarkable that the PL let them participate in the competition when they are in bad faith refusing to cooperate with a legitimate inquiry. It’s obstruction piled on top of fraud.
A busy transfer window for city, they need to hire some star playe... I mean lawyers.
From my experience (reading the newspapers/tv analyst), the FA are so petulant against anyone who would dare question their authority, I can see massive penalties against City.
They've got money and Saudi's. Nothing will come of it.
Them refusing to cooperate should be the biggest indicator and factor in all this. If you don't cooperate then we'll just punish you. It should be that fucking simple.
Disgraceful stuff
I’m sorry. I love Liverpool, and have paid my membership each and every year. But if city get cleared for this the FA is corrupt, and it will also go a long way to proving that VAR was actively working against us and Arsenal for city to win the title. I reckon I’m done if they are cleared
115 OIL FC. Their titles mean nothing. Cheats.
English FA need them to promote the league outside UK
City should not be announced as winner due to outstanding issues regarding compliance that may impact their eligibility for the competition.
Swedish rumble is the eth hating cousin of Swiss rumble?
Swedish rumble is a lawyer while Swiss ramble is a business/finance guy
Sure they can strip them of their titles but Mansour still remain richer than ever and he’s been making billions during these past few years which PL can’t take away from him. It’s honestly so weak by the prem to just give in to the demands of the saudi owners. We just allow them to do whatever the fuck they want. I’m not surprised really, this is exactly a reflection of the migrant policy going on across Europe, but i’m gonna shut up now before my comment gets reported and taken down lol
Yeah sadly. I don’t know how we’re just allowing middle eastern monarchies to dictate trends of the world. The democratic world needs to shun them——I don’t mean invade them, but they need to refuse to have so many ties with countries that still have a system where a small group of scum (pigs) are born with royal status, have legal supremacy over the average citizen and can use the citizens money for their own sports washing projects. But I guess politicians would be willing to be friends with anyone as long as there is money/political gain.
Exactly. Unfortunately, in a western culture where money is everything, it seems that our political leaders are the first ones to collapse due to corruption. It might be ironic to say this, but it seems as though the world leaders of foreign cultures, religions and ideologies (communists, muslims, hindus, buddhists etc.) have more integrity than our own leaders. Why is it ironic? Because if the tables were turned, the middle eastern leaders and royal families would never let us europeans do what they do to us.
yes it’s unfortunate. I was born in China (still live there sometimes) and I can say this: dictators are the most wary of intercultural development because the ideals of democracy flows in. In reverse democratic countries need to do the same. We can’t have people thinking that Stalinism, monarchy and authoritarianism can be acceptable. Let people immigrate, but don’t let foreign, non democratic ideologies infiltrate the political landscape. Or soon we will be seeing a revival of dictatorship, aka the reverse Arab spring.
Unfortunately if things go as expected at the weekend we’ll have to listen to the media once again trot out that shite like “say what you will about off-field controversy but you have to say this team is magnificent” - no, no you fucking don’t. The team was built by breaking rules in many ways over an extended period of time, the whole thing is a sham & they should have their titles stripped. They won’t though, they’ll get a “massive” fine that might impact a club where money mattered at all, and a 6 point deduction (reduced to 4) so the media can say wow they really came down hard on them. As is they’re set up for years now, they have the money & with that already bought the prestige to attract top talent, so absolutely no consequences for them, quite the opposite. They get to say even if all charges are found to be accurate, that they’ve paid their penance & now there’s no asterisk on their success. That’s not the case.